Gerry Brown and Emilie Pons discuss groove (part 1 of 2)

Gerry’s guest this episode is the world culture reporter, Emilie Pons. Emilie is a member of the Foreign Press Association (FPA) and has contributed to numerous news outlets, including Public Radio International (PRI) and National Public Radio (NPR). She and Gerry discuss her recent visit to Kuwait, where she met with scholars and musicians and learned that Kuwaiti music has distinct rhythms and rhythmic choices that are understood by performers and audiences and that define genres, reflect the culture, and intentionally evoke emotions and even geographies. In other words, Kuwaiti music has its own, rich groove language. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hey everyone, Jerry Brown here. With today's episode, one of two. So here, this is what's gonna happen. Today we're listening for the beat beneath the music. And in Kuwait, the way people describe tunes can be a little different from what many listeners expect. Sometimes the music is understood less as a song and more as a rhythm. So that shift in language opens up a bigger story about how sound, culture, and tradition shape the way music is heard. Our esteemed guest is journalist, Miss Emily Pond, who covers the Middle East and North Africa and produces radio stories for Public Radio International. She spent years reporting across the region, and she joins us today on the Groove Don't Lie podcast to help unpack what that rhythm-centered way of hearing music means in Kuwait and why it matters. So without any more pause, episode one of two on Groove Don't Lieu.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

I was recently in Kuwait in January, and um I went there for a field trip for my dissertation, and I spoke to many, many people, and I spoke to uh scholars, I spoke to many musicians, and um many musicians described to me some of the music that is performed in Kuwait and that has historically been very important for Kuwaiti music and not just Kuwaiti music but also Kuwaiti culture. So they described um this music as rhythms. And so when you know um some of the musicians I was talking with, they were thinking, they were telling me, you know, we play actually this rhythm and we play that rhythm. And for them, it meant that they were playing music, but that music specifically was referred to as different types of rhythms and different types of rhythmic combinations, uh, different types of rhythmical choices, etc., and arrangements and combinations of different rhythms. And so it's kind of like every rhythm in Kuwait music defines a style of music, and also um these different styles of music are associated to different geographies in Kuwait. So, for instance, you do have sea music and you do have uh desert music, and these are different types of rhythms actually. But what's really interesting is that oftentimes um you know that music also incorporates singing and words, and so it's not because someone will tell you, you know, we play that rhythm, and then every rhythm or every um rhythmic choice has a name, so it's a it's a Kuwaiti name, and so you refer to that rhythm when you're going to perform with your band, and everybody understands what you mean. However, as I was just saying, sometimes on top of that rhythm, you still have singing, but that is different from compositions, that is different from written songs, which are usually based on poems. So in in a lot of Arabic music, uh many songs are inspired by poetry, not all songs, and uh in Kuwait, you also you know, from 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, you also had composers who would write songs for specific singers, and uh they would also write the lyrics, but uh traditionally uh many songs with lyrics, so that in this case they are referred to as music, in fact, and not rhythm. Many of these songs uh oftentimes are inspired by very famous poems. So, for instance, in Kuwait, I was able to get some books of poems, but these poems are actually also songs uh for specific Kuwait singers, men and women singers. So, yeah, so this is this is what I have discovered.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

As opposed to in the West, of how yeah, you okay, yeah, you can write songs for different people, but knowing that there are certain rhythms that that are happening for for certain areas. You know, as you said, you know, for the for the land or you know, the desert and from the sea.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, you know, Jerry, it's as if it's as if you when you go on stage, it's as if you were kind of telling the band, hey, uh we're just gonna play this rhythm, and it's as if that was the deciding factor as to what's gonna happen on stage. So in Kuwait and also in Saudi Arabia and in Qatar, because they share similar musical traditions, you know, there is this idea that okay, today we're gonna play Samri. So Samri, for instance, is a specific genre of music that exists in Kuwait, um, in Saudi Arabia, and Samri, for instance, has many different types of rhythms, but you know, when you play Samri, you know that you're gonna play these rhythms and then when you start playing, I think you know the idea is okay, we're gonna play that rhythm, and everybody understands what that means. So basically, in many musical traditions of the northern gulf, at least, um you know, rhythm is a foundation for what we as the as in the West understand as a musical performance. So the the rhythmic choices and the decisions made about rhythm are really crucial as far as what's going to happen at that moment for the musicians, whether you perform Samri or Sot, which is a different type of music as well in Kuwait, S-A-W-T. So you know the rhythm is essential, it's everything. But as I said, you also have a different type of performing where what matters the most is the poem that where that came out of that poem and the melody. But but I think that poetry is essential in Arabic music in general as well. So, you know, you have really different types of traditions. And for instance, I went to um when I was in Kuwait, I went to um a get together, sorry, um a celebration of um the publication of a book about the history of Kuwait that was written by a Kuwaiti princess. And at the end of the event of the um uh it was a really interesting, you know, event um in a in a great uh at a great cultural center. At the end of the evening, a group of uh performers came on stage and they were playing uh uh Kuwaiti rhythms, and they played for a while and they had specific percussions, but a lot of these percussions also each each percussion instrument has a different function, and so they came with their instruments and they played rhythms for like 40 minutes, different types of rhythms, and that's it, and there was absolutely no singing, and there was just rhythms, and there's a trance-like quality many times uh in these performances or these events, you know, it's almost like the rhythms that are being played lead to some kind of um trance. Uh because also uh Kuwaiti music has been influenced by so many different types of music, including African music and gnawa music, you know, which has a trance-like quality. And so I think that when you listen to Kuwaiti rhythms, you know, there's so many other um influences that are part of these performances. And so, anyway, at the end of the event for the uh publication of the book, these Kuwaiti performers came and they just played their percussions for 40 minutes or so. And that's part of uh that was the way to close the evening, to close the evening to the event, and that's um that's very common. So what I found fascinating as well is that these rhythms they are part of the personality of the country. And you know, Kuwait when I think of Kuwait now, I think of these rhythms. And if I hear these rhythms, then of course I will be thinking of Kuwait. You you know, it's it's kind of like I think that every country has a sound, uh which is uh you know uh created by an accumulation uh uh of many different sounds, and certainly that is part of the sonic signature of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and Qatar, you know, these rhythms are they share, they are shared by different countries in the Gulf region. So I I just find it fascinating that you really understand that now you are in that part of the world because these rhythms they are really important on so many levels for these societies. They are used for celebrations, they are used for weddings, they are used um for commemorations. You can hear them on the radio. So they're really an important aspect of the identities of these countries in the Northern Arabian Peninsula. And um and I and I love that, you know, I love kind of understanding their importance uh for the culture, for the identity, for like it's it's really a way uh for people also to come together and to vibe, you know, I or I or groove together around these rhythms and it's it's really interesting. So what I what I find fascinating, at least in Kuwait, is that music, uh and so when I say music, I include these uh specific rhythms and these performances with percussions only. Music is is extremely important. And sounds, you know, matter, they really make a difference, and they are present, you know, in different aspects, in different parts of Kuwaiti life. They are not um uh separated from daily life and from important celebrations, they are an integral part of the culture, you know, and in fact, you don't even need to turn on your TV or you know to to hear these these sounds. You you don't need to always go to a concert to hear these sounds. You sometimes all you need to do is uh walk around or and and and and someone is gonna play these rhythms, or you know, it's it's um it's a very uh I don't know, it's also very present. Well, I was saying you don't need to turn on TV, but it's also very present on national television. Um but it's kind of like I think you you will hear these instruments or you will see, you know, the tar, which is one of the percussions. It's just um huh, how can I say it's kind of like you know, um it's part of the fabric of the country from what I have observed, you know. Also, I happen to spend a lot of time with and around musicians, and I spend time at their houses, I spend time, I go to their rehearsals, you know, I'm very much involved with the music scene, but even if you're not you can really see uh these performers, it's not so difficult, you know, to kind of like hear that music, you know. Uh I went to so many places and so many events where you know at the end this percussion is come and they and they're going to perform and either Samri or you know, maybe something else, and it's it's amazing. I wanted to add something else to what I was talking about. I was invited to a house of the niece of the singer that I'm writing about, and I showed up at this house, and it was mostly women and from the family, cousins, because in Kuwait, you know, you meet together with your whole family, extended family, and so on and so forth once a week. It's a tradition. And so I was invited to that once a week get together. And what happened, Jerry, was so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

This this is an incredible access.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yes, I think.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

You know this.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

I know. I'm um I'm very lucky, and um, I was invited to so many incredible um places and get-togethers. And so what happened is they knew what I was doing, and so um they uh they welcomed me. And of course, you know, in uh traditional uh in in Arabic tradition, you know, you start by having tea and then coffee and then sweets and then dates and and everybody is very um kind, and also because in Arabic uh tradition, the guest is kind of sacred. So, you know, in eastern cultures, you probably know that because you went to Abu Dhabi recently, but in eastern cultures, you know, the guest is is extremely important, and especially in Islam. So I felt like I was a queen, and because they knew what I was researching, they they gave me a tar, which is one of the big uh flat percussions, and they started teaching me how to play. Great, and so but before you play the tar, you have to um, and and I think it's maybe not the only percussions, but I'm not sure. But you have to burn it a little bit, you have to use fire to to make it so that it sounds a certain way. So they did that, they gave me the tar, and then one of the dancers who came for the occasion, because many musicians are also dancers, like music and dancing, uh, they go really together as well uh in Kuwaiti music. Many performers, many musicians, many singers, many percussionists are also they also use movement a lot uh during the performances. So one of the dancers who came, also related to the singer I'm researching. Her name, as I said, was Aisha Al Marta. So she gives me the tar and then she starts teaching me how to play. Also, I think one of the reasons she did that was to really make me understand what that instrument feels like. And I think the other reason is I'm not just an observer, but I'm a participant now. Because also uh the culture is collectivist, it's a collectivist culture. We're all doing this together, you know, and I thought that was fascinating for me because I came as a researcher, and I ended up being also the one that was playing, and I ended up being the one that they were taking so many photos of, and I was kind of like it was super interesting because the roles were reversed. So now I'm playing, I'm playing guitar, and they're teaching me how to play these rhythms that I was talking about, and then they're taking photos of me while I do that, and then they all want to take photos with me as well, and it was so funny. And then what happened is that the uh several women took several instruments, they also had other percussions, and they started playing for me, and they started showing me what this kind of music looks and feels and sounds like, and this was at home, this was a private home because many many performances as well in the region happen at home, especially with women, because historically women you you know play at home and they play at weddings, which is also private, etc. etc. So now I get to sit with these women who are starting to play these percussions for me, and then the dancers start dancing because that specific musical genre, which is called Sammy, is also very much connected to dancing, and so now she starts showing me the dance that corresponds to the music, and it was so nice, and because I think I really got the context. You know, um it's not just uh understanding the the technicalities of the rhythm, but it's also understanding the context. Where do these performances happen? How do they happen? Who is part of them? What's the environment like? What's the vibe? You know, what's the groove? And I felt like it was full-on immersion for me. And meanwhile, you know, I keep being served uh sweets and everything on this planet, like chocolates and you know, just like and in fact when I was in Kuwait, I I went for music, but I left thinking so much about food, you know. Now now there was like there were two competing interests in my mind, uh, food and music.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

So I I I will tell you about some some things about food and music at a at a later time. But but go you know what? I just want to say you are coming from such a place from the heart that obviously they could feel.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah, and you know, by the way, many of these women don't speak English. Um, they don't really, or very few words. So, what happened that night is that one of the canoon players who introduced me to all of these wonderful women, she also brought her cousin who did the translation for me. So, you know, you also have to know that many people in the world don't actually speak English, including in the Arabian Peninsula, and many Kuwaitis don't speak English. And so I was very fortunate that this other young woman who is not a musician, but she came and she helped me understand what was going on. Uh, as I said, it's a teamwork, it's about the group, it's about what we can make happen together, how we help each other. And I think, you know, at that moment, uh, in that house, they were all helping me, and they were helping each other so they could all help me better. And um it was collaborative, and I think there was also maybe solidarity because I'm a woman, they were all women, and I also remember um you know there was uh the this idea of the collective uh spirit. So uh there's also a musician that was at a later time who told me he's a great singer from uh he's Iranian Kuwaiti, and he's a really amazing singer. And I remember I went to his performance and the rehearsal, and he said, Here, we don't think as I, we think as we. And I never forgot that statement, and that was so uh true uh when I was with these women in that house, but then it was true everywhere I went in Kuwait. You know, I went to a music school, and I was supposed to interview one musician, and then eight people greeted me together, like other professors, other musicians, students, the dean of the school. It's so it's it's just everybody was there to say hi to me. Everybody came, and so it was very interesting for me because many, many times I got ready to go and talk to one person, like we're doing now. You interview one person and you end up in front of 15 people, like in that house with the women, there were at least 15 people, and actually, I had to kind of really rethink my approach to what I was doing because now like it's not gonna be the same type of conversation. I'm talking to one woman, but there are like seven women next to her, and they also all want to say something, and you know, and then at the same time, when you look at all these great performances of perfor of percussionists in Kuwait, it's a lot of people who play together. You know, most performances I mean they are also ensembles with perhaps five or six instrumentalists. But when I'm talking to you about, you know, these performances when um percussionists only play rhythms, it's a lot of people who come at once. At the reception for the princess and her book, I think maybe about 30 uh percussionists showed up at the end of the reception. And you know, when you see these performances, uh whether they're at home or outside home, it's usually a lot of people who come and play these rhythms together. And so there is this real this idea of the group, you know, the group is really the heart of the culture as well, and then I think also is the heart of the music. We all play that beat together, and we play the same, and it's okay, and then someone is gonna stand up and start dancing, and then someone is going to stand up and maybe start singing as well, and it's it's really a collective spirit, even oh my god, everywhere I went, I was planning on meeting one person and I would end up meeting 20 people, and I even went to a an administration, a very uh important administration for um the Kuwaiti Fund. I think it's about actually, I don't uh remember all the details, but even there, it's kind of like an office. You know, you imagine you go to New York to a building, uh a high-rise building where you have all these offices where you have accountants and so on and so forth. And even there, I was greeted by so many people, uh, men and women, and even one woman, she closed the door of her office and she started performing for me with seven other women. And so what I'm saying is that um the spirit is different. It's you know, in America, it's it's really an individualistic culture, even though there are many communities that are not individualistic here. But I think the American spirit is, you know, we're gonna make it on our own, and we have to, and this is how we prove our worth, you know. But in Kuwait, it's it's not like that. It's it's uh we are working together, we we are going to make something happen that's more collective, more and more collective and yes, the team. Yes, and so the I, you know, that's what that musician was telling me. The I doesn't really exist that much, it's more the we, you know. And I think it's like that in many many parts of the world, in in many countries, in many cultures. Um in fact, that might be the norm. Uh, and and the United States could be an exception because it's a very here, it's a very individualistic culture. So I think that this might not be the norm, in fact, you know, even this this country is extremely big, but it doesn't mean that individualism is normal or common in other parts of the world.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Hey, that was journalist Emily Pons. We thank her for this first episode. But ladies and gentlemen, this episode two coming to you on the Groove Don Live Podcast. Stay tuned.