Gerry Brown and Emilie Pons discuss groove (part 2 of 2)

This is part 2 of Gerry Brown's conversation with the world culture reporter, Emilie Pons (PRI, NPR, etc.). You know why? Because Kuwaiti groove don’t lie!

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:14

Hey everyone, Jerry Brown again on the Groove Don't Live Podcast. Episode number two with Emily Pond coming to you. Take it away, Emily. I have to forget. Because what you've experienced and how you explained it, it's priceless. And again, one of my good friends he does conferences. He knows how to put these together. And to put together a groove conference, a groove conferences around the planet. And with those same qualities that you've just spoken about, I'm sure that you could say the same something similar for the music that comes from Cuba, the music that comes from Puerto Rico, the music that you know probably, you know, comes from Asia, you know, because it's very different than than here. It's it's it's always a collective. It's it's not just, you know, everybody's playing together and there's there's this conversation that is going on between the the musicians. It's a conversation between the singers, and it's a conversation between the dancers and what they're doing. And I'm sure it it it has a deep meaning. With rhythm and groove there's more of a possibility that people can work together.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right. Um there's something to be said for melodies, you know, and and I think that we also want to make sure that we honor the people who write and sing incredible melodies. And I think that it's an aspect of music and in and music production also present in the Arabian Gulf that uh should not be undermined either, you know. So yes, I think that rhythms in Kuwait, in Saudi Arabia, in many African cultures, and also in India are so important, but let's not forget the amazing, you know, contributions of lyricists, of poets, of composers, of um yeah, songwriters, you know, and then also let's not forget the incredible diversity of skills that exist in the world. Because, you know, there is microtonal music which is fantastic, and so we want to also know or make sure that you know we understand it the value and the essential nature of melodies, and in addition to rhythms and and of how melodies are approached and written in different parts of the world. And you know, in the in the East I'm very impressed with the use of macam, you know, in and in Arabic music, different skills, different systems as well, and also in Indian music, it's it's it's incredible uh what musicians and songwriters do with melodies and also with the skills available to them, skills that we don't use so much in the West. And and then there are so many amazing vocalists in the Arab world, in India, in Pakistan, and they they really explore the possibilities of the voice and of melodies and of different types of tones that we don't use so much here. So I would say let's not forget that as well, you know, that yes, rhythms and groove matter, but so do uh voices and so do scales and tones and microtones. Uh for instance the canon in in the Arabic musical tradition uh is is such an important instrument as well. And the canon is so interesting, it's both rhythms and melodies. And I like it so much because it's so rich, it's kind of like the piano, you know, but but the canon is tuned in a way where you know you can you can play like these notes that are so much harder to produce on the piano, you know. So what I'm saying is that some sounds and some uh scales um are so rich in the east, they can be played and produced with the specific instruments uh which are unique to the region, and it's a little harder for us here uh in the West to do the same.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

That would be my former boss, Stevie Wonder.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 7:19

He would be incredible to bring him to these places.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Oh, lately, I have become friends with many of these musicians that I ended up, you know, interviewing. And uh Abdullah Almer Shirt is one of them. And Abdullah uh and I we are always chatting. I've been starting to send him music from here because I'm curious about what he thinks. And uh, you know, we here have specific musical references that are so obvious to us, like Stevie or Mice, or you know, the great performers. And then to him, these are new sounds because he hasn't really um listened to that music before, he hasn't necessarily been exposed to it. And so what I've been starting doing is I've been starting to text him and to send him music that I love from here. The other day, I think I sent him a piece by a very famous musician here, and he didn't know him. But what's so interesting to what was so interesting is that Abdullah had never heard that, oh Keith Jarrett. I sent him some Keith Jarrett by Keith Jarrett, I think, and uh he said, Oh, I don't know him. And I was thinking, you know, this is really interesting because our frame of reference is so different, and we assume that we know we have our idols, you know, we have the people that uh we've been you know adoring and and that have been really leading uh musical tastes as well and and musical expertise, and they have been models, but it's fascinating to see that in other countries these models are irrelevant, and in fact, they're not even part of their musical vocabulary, and I find it so interesting because I was thinking, you know, it's such a great lesson in humility.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

If from from this side you you you have Stevie Wonder and Herbie Hancock. And they're meeting these other people from the other side of the planet. Absolutely. And and and they don't really know of each other, but what could happen?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yes, exactly. And that's why I was starting to send American music to Abdullah and just see what he said. And you know, it's so funny, our tastes are very different, you know. Um I don't know if he likes Keith Jarrett, you know. I don't know if it speaks to him. And I understand, you know, in his completely different scale system, different understanding of the the melodies and what melodies mean. You know, melodies mean different things in different contexts, rhythms mean different things in different contexts, and I think this is what I started realizing. I was thinking, wow, it's so interesting how taste is formed and how taste happens, you know, how we acquire musical taste. Love uh uh, you know, so many uh music from the Arabian Peninsula, um, from East Asia, you know. I just went to Japan and I went to a traditional Japanese performance and I was blown away by uh the melodies. And in fact, there also each song was based on a poem. You know, so so there are so many interesting connections in different Asian countries, you know, uh West Asia, East Asia. I just enjoy trying to see what music means in different parts of the world and why, and what it doesn't mean too. You know, as I said for Abdullah, Kisjar, it doesn't mean much.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

So I've had this vision of these type of conferences, groove conferences, and not only from the musical side, but then when you bring the aspect of the lyrics, the poems, the dance there could be people who would who may listen and they say that's a great idea. I'm not saying that we have to do it first, but I'm just saying that to me what what we've talked about it is it is a blueprint of what is possible. And you could do this on a global scale and people would would absolutely come to this.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

They would they would want to they will b want to be a part of of this conversation globally what I have been understanding slowly over time as I have been traveling to all of these countries is that you know some musicians are interested in Western music. For instance, I interviewed this really cool rock band in Lebanon when I started working as a producer for PRI, and this is a Syrian band with a trio called Tanjad. And they love Western rock music, and so they want to emulate that type of music, and they and they really but then they also add some you know Arabic melodies to their compositions, which is really beautiful, so it's a really powerful fusion. But I would say also that local many local musicians don't care so much about what we do here, and they are very much they really very identify with their traditions, their music, etc. etc. So not every musician and not every percussionist necessarily they may not all relate to what groove means to us here. There are different religious, you know, positions, you know, different religious belief systems that are really important to take into account. So I think we need we we we should be very mindful of culture in general. You know, you know, music uh it has a very unique and complicated place, for instance, in in Muslim cultures, you know, and so there are different variations amongst the different Muslim countries as far as their relationship with music. There are a lot of things to take into account, I think. Uh, and I've been trying to bring a Kuwaiti ensemble here in the United States. Well, right now it's impossible, unfortunately, because uh, you know, of the war and uh movement is very hard for Kuwaitis. The airport has been closed for weeks. Um but you know that's exactly what I've been thinking about, you know, as well. And and also exposing Americans to these different types of music because they they don't know them either. You know, we're so ignorant here about these types of musics. We we don't necessarily relate to them, we don't understand their function, you know, we don't understand the role they play that these types of music play in uh Arabic societies. We don't have that kind of knowledge, and I think you know, educating people uh would be wonderful because it's so important to stop you know stereotypes and um and build bridges around meaningful uh activities and and around culture. So while we should be mindful of cultural differences, we should also, of course, continue trying to build these bridges, uh, especially now, you know, especially during a war, um we should remember that there is so much talent in the Middle East. I think this is something that when you have a war, uh any type of conflict, we forget that that region, there are so many instruments in the Middle East, and they are and each instrument has a function, and then some instruments are only played by men, some instruments are only played by women. You know, there is it's it's fascinating all the layers around music, the function of music in society, and how do women, what is the place of women in music, and why do they place these instruments and and not these others? And why do men can only play one can why can men only play these and not these other percussions? We forget that the cultural production of that region is vast and has historically been humongous. And so maybe for me I feel like it's an act of resistance perhaps, or that's maybe my way of responding to the war, is perhaps trying to continue emphasizing the richness of the region through music.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

I think that's a perfect bridge. I I don't know if you have or any of your friends have any contacts that would could possibly be. So that conferences that we've talked about that they could happen because we can't keep going on like we're going on.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yes, you know, Jerry, I think that there are some um uh branches uh at the United Nations perhaps that focus specifically on culture, but I'm not very uh knowledgeable in terms of um everything uh that the UN encourages and puts together. I have been to the UN many times, but I haven't really I'm not knowledgeable as to the cultural missions. UNESCO has uh named many instruments and many musical genres as uh intangible heritages of humanity. So for instance, many different musical styles and dancing styles are kind of officially protected by the UNESCO as and maybe by the UN. So there is definitely a push toward making sure that you know different styles like I think Rye, you know, which is Algerian popular music, I think it's one of these intangible heritages of humanity. I think there is um a community uh who works around protecting different aspects of cultural production in the world. So yeah, I don't actually I don't really know who takes care of this and who does it. I also, you know, there's one more thing I would say. Um what does it actually mean when a Western institution and a western organization decides that something should be preserved? Who does it benefit and who is it being preserved for? Is it being preserved for the actual makers of that music and of these instruments, or is it being preserved for other people? Kind of like I also wonder like who benefits from it, who is great, great question. Yeah, and is there commodification, you know, like in the act of preserving a musical style or an instrument, is that style or that instrument being commodified? And to which end? I'm just wondering, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just thinking, you know, because there isn't, for instance, there isn't an institution in the east or in the global south that says, Oh, you know, we need to preserve um R and B.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

I was just gonna say RB.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Yeah. You need to preserve uh, you know, hip-hop. Yeah, and so why I don't know, and I I really like the idea of cultural preservation, you know. Uh I think it's essential, but I also wonder the politics of cultural preservation. Um, like why is this is there something kind of patronizing around it?

SPEAKER_04 21:52

I could imagine that question coming up in a conference. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Well, I'm talking about Actually, I'm talking about that next week in London.

unknown 22:03

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

I'm talking about Native American and Kurdish music for a panel on cultural preservation.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Would you please, if there's a link for that, would you please send it to me?

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah. Oh sorry, not next week. It's in it's in two weeks.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

Whenever. Whenever.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, it's exciting. You know, um, I love Kurdish music as well. They they have a type of blues which is called Dan Danbe. It's amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

Emily, you're amazing. I thank the universe for meeting for how I got attracted and seeing you know what you what you've said. I I saw some images and by the grace of the universe. And here we are speaking about this. So no coincidence.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Well, thank you, Jerry. Uh no coincidence, but a lot of Kuwait.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

A lot of no that's a great that's a that's a great line. That's a great line. No coincidence, but a lot of Kuwait. Emily, thank you so much. Thank you. One where rhythm isn't just part of the music, but often the starting point. Emily, we thank you for your time and appearing here on the Good On Live Podcast. Everyone, stay tuned because there are other goodies coming down the line. Stay tuned. Peace.