Groove Don't Lie
Groove Don’t Lie the Series is about intimate discussions with musicians, authors, visual artists, athletes, and other luminaries about what groove means to them, how they experience groove in their work and personal lives, and what can be done to find the groove when it is missing. The secret ingredient is the host, Gerry Brown, the OG groove master whose history and legacy as a musician, longevity, personality and demeanor seamlessly connect the guests and the audience. The backstage tales, insider information, and the true stories behind some of the most remarkable concerts, albums, artworks, books, and athletic accomplishments of the last century will appeal to fans, historians, and up-and-comers alike, while inspiring everyone with strategies for tapping into the universal, eternal, and authentic groove.
Groove Don't Lie
Gerry Brown and Reggie Hamilton discuss groove (part 1 of 2)
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Gerry’s guest for this two-part episode is the versatile bass wizard, Reggie Hamilton. Reggie has toured and recorded in a variety of styles with a variety of artists, including Seal, Babyface, Thalia, Queen Latifah, Christina Aguilera, Anita Baker, Bette Midler, Whitney Houston, John Mellencamp, Warren Zevon, Mariah Carey, and Tina Turner. If that weren’t proof enough of groove, Fender issued Reggie Hamilton Artist Series Signature Standard Jazz Basses from 2005 to 2015.
So, ladies and gentlemen, right here on the Goose Online Podcast is one of the greatest bass players that you'll ever want to know. Los Angeles bass musician. I think originally from New York. The man plays all genres, supports all the stars. He's helped shape recordings from the inside out. Stories about craft, adaptability, and the art of making every song stronger. Which is that about right? That's much more than I'd say about myself. Come on, man. Come on, man. So let me see, man. Let me let's kind of get s some some of the uh other other other things out, you know, it's like those like what you know, take taking taking us back. What pulled you into this into this the low frequencies?
SPEAKER_01Well the low frequencies, it's it's funny. Um I mean I I got a little toy ukulele when I was a little kid and I thought I was having fun, you know. And it was a a nice sanctuary from whatever my life was at the time, you know, with family and the like. But I was playing guitar for a couple of years as a kid, you know. I started taking a whole lot of stuff and we had a guitar lab in New York City. In fact, my my teacher from that guitar lab from elementary school is still alive. I keep in touch with this guy, Bob Brillo. Amazing, amazing dude. He'd leave sometimes in the middle of class because he had a gig. And he'd take his DNG. And so he'd leave um one of us in charge, either me or my my good friend Gary, who I've known since we were like five years old. You know, we still talk. And so Bob would go to the gigs, but he was uh always supportive. But um, I would see while in school, I'd see all these cats with guitars all the time. I was like, I gotta do something different. And I as much as I like guitar, it just didn't have the same appeal as bass. Bass is foundation, like from on an emotional level, you know, it's it's like drumming is to drums are the original communications, and bass is like the original support animal. They go hand in hand, you know. Like I told you, um we used to talk years ago. I was like, I see the drummer as the guy riding the covered wagon, and I see the bass player as the guy with the shotgun shooting at the wolves that are trying to attack the wagon. I love that analogy, man. Yeah. About 10 years old, and uh everybody and their mothers playing guitar, and so I switched to bass. And uh my mom, kind of, even though she didn't really know anything about it, she went and bought me a bass. They ripped her off at the shop, and they uh sold her a broken Gibson EBL. And then uh they gave her this Chinese knockoff to replace it, you know. So they kind of ripped her off. A twelve a 12 watt base hamp. My my my phone is louder than my bassamp was back in the day. But I didn't know.
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, I didn't know. I you know, there should be a rim shot there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think there should be. Yeah, that's that's what it was. I mean, everybody was playing guitar and I wanted to do something different and it just appealed to me better. The bass, you know, Verdeen White and Peter Satera at the time and uh Al McKibben, though I didn't know who he was. Lose this cat Groovin on the Odd Couple or on the Batman TV show. That appealed to me playing on records and movies and just that was it. That was cool. TV shows, Carol Burnett or Red Skelton, you know, or a Dean Martin show, or uh Jack Benny, or you know what I mean? Who's playing the bass parts for all that stuff? Just thought it was cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um there's something to be said about those shows that you mentioned and how really I mean it was it was a vibe that whatever the wattage was of your television, but there was a vibe and how that you know and it it really affected you. It was it was it was uh triggering what was you know, what what would what would happen eventually in your journey?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, I mean I I wanted to be successful, not famous, you know. And so these guys were mysterious. They like they made music, did their gig, and they could walk down the street without a problem. You know, because I was a kid, there's a Jimi Hendrix experience, you know. I'm a little guy seeing that stuff, and or uh New Birth or Earthwind Fire, BT Express, um Led Zeppelin, you know, the Who Cream. Saw all that stuff, and it's it's exotic and it's beautiful, and they're really talented, and they got hip clothes and whatnot, but they have no life. It's it's stressful. And walking into a room, laying down a track and leaving, yeah, you get to hear it on the radio and you walk by, and I'm I'm comfortable enough with the people that I was in the room with knowing that I did it. Doesn't have to be like the little girl in in like Poughkeepsie, Indiana. That's even a city, but you know.
SPEAKER_02Well Indiana, New York, they're kind of close. It's close enough.
SPEAKER_01They're kind of close. They're kind of close, you know. You know. I know there's a Poughkeepsie, New York, but there might be a Poughkeepsie, Indiana, you know. Never know. There's Paris, you know. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So but that's that's that's what drew me a long, long way around. You know, that's that's what got me to that point. All of that.
SPEAKER_02So what or when did you realize from what you've said when did you realize that I've got some goods? I'm I'm appreciative of what I'm hearing. I have the you know, I have some I have the discipline. I have the noncomplacency. I want to do this. So so so when did it when do you remember like when did when it came across like this is a serious career?
SPEAKER_01I think once I I moved to Atlantic City, I um was kind of in New York by myself for a little bit. My my mom had moved and I didn't talk to my pop. Um so I moved back with my mom to Atlantic City around like the day before my 15th birthday. And um I was starting to shed and and play and do gigs in New York, you know, before that with our little band, and then um trying to play with other people, which was cool, you know. Um being in like uh in Jamaica, Queens, and I met a wonderful group of guys. We were young and playing, and then I was doing gigs with some some adults. But when I moved to Atlantic City, I started working almost right away, you know. Um I'm in high school and I'm playing four nights a week, five nights a week, you know, with a jazz band here, a swing band here, a funk band here, uh playing parties with, you know, playing prog rock parties with other cats, like all different types of stuff.
SPEAKER_02Beautiful, man. I'm I mean, yeah, you're wearing the hats at a young age. Yeah. I mean, but uh so informative, you know, just that's it. Because I mean I liked all of you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, high school was something because you know, they're making my reading wasn't great. And I mean, in my mind, it's it's it's still I'm still a work in progress. I'm always a work in progress. You know, I have moments of brilliance and moments of questions. What is that? Is that a home note? What is that? You know. Here, here. Yeah. Yes. I'm honest about it. But uh yeah, there I was, you know, it was at first I thought I had gone back to the Dark Ages, but I met this wonderful band director, this guy named Joe Brown. In New York in high school, I had a a great band director, and these cats didn't know each other, and they went to the same college, and they both brass players, same age, which I thought was funny. This cat Jabrone Tyr is a trombone player in New York, and he was great. Great, great, really good brother. But Joe Brown, I mean, I mean, I still we still talk fairly regularly, Joe and I. I call him JB. So um he was making me read more. He was during the day, they would loan me out to different high schools to play bass for different high school bands. They'd loan you out. Yeah, they'd loan me out. So uh I would play with like uh Atlantic City High School Jazz Band and then play with a different high school jazz band because their bass players couldn't read or play or swing. You know, at least I I understood swing back then. Maybe not harmony so much, but I knew how to swing. So I would, and I could I could read through the charts. So I'd be playing with, I think I played with like three or four different high school bands while I was in Atlantic City High. And then at night I was playing in little clubs and subbing. I think um yeah, around 15, I was subbing for Gary Haas, a great bass player in New York. I met this guy at Harold Barney that used to play with Donald Byrd. And I was playing with uh Raphael, no, no, no. I was with um um another Caribbean artist. I was subbing. I was 15 playing at like one of the casinos, you know. I could go in, I just couldn't sit at the bar because the AV ABC would be all on you. Uh Wendell Stewart was his name, you know. Really bad dude. But that's with all that going on, that's when I knew, okay, I can do this. You know, your parents look at you like you're crazy, like they said, no, man, you work in the factory. Or you'll be a doctor, an attorney, you know, or something something of some dimension. But that that wasn't my calling. But that's when I knew. It's like, yeah, I could do this. I'm by this time I'm sixteen, seventeen. I'm like playing six nights a week. I could I'm bar I barely have enough time to sleep. I'm cutting classes at school. And uh remember one s one uh track coach said, Man, I'm I'm gonna fail you. I was like, Man, you gotta do what you gotta do. I I g I gotta gig I gotta go to work. You're not paying my bills.
SPEAKER_02There's something to uh uh for me uh that uh that brings back you know the found memories of cutting class. But yeah, but there was there was a positive intention. Yes. Something stupid. Yeah, yeah, not for something stupid.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, I I used to smoke and cut glass. I used to cut uh used to cut classes and go up to the to the uptown theater and seeing all the LV shows and stuff like that, man. And that was Yeah. Oh, I'm going to school. I'm going to school. That's real school. Just not that's I'm going to that school. Right. That school. That's real school. That's real school. And so, yeah, the cut in the glass, you know. But I had intentions. Yeah, I just barely got out of high school, but uh, I got out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, same. Yeah, right. Like I I actually left uh a week before I was supposed to graduate and I blew off all my finals. But you you needed like 95 credits to graduate, and I had 195. And I I I always stayed just comfortably in the middle. I I walked out during half of my SATs. I still scored like decently. I scored in the middle. I was like, that's enough. You know, I don't need to crack my brain. I know it's not this useless to you know, but I remember this one teacher, God Russia saw Alice Cash, just one of the best English teachers. She's like, Man, I should have failed your ass. She said it just like that. She wanted to hit me in the back of the head too. She's a good sister. Really righteous.
SPEAKER_02Funny the things that we remember. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And the and the people in in our journey, you know, it's but it's very effective.
SPEAKER_01So I think more than any other teacher, she made me see words and lyrics and meaning. So she was actually quite effective in helping me be uh who I am as to how I play ballads.
SPEAKER_02So the timing again is perfect because I was I was going to and I will ask you in your approach to playing for you know, what is your approach for playing a singer versus something more improvisational or a setting?
SPEAKER_01Well, for supporting a singer, it's supporting the lyric and the melody, of course. Then there's the nature of the singer himself or herself, as whatever the case may be, you know. Um so with regards to ballads, with regard to ballads, um I need to know the lyric. Like um all the years that I worked with Babyface, if I was playing on a tune that had no melody, I'd ask him to sing me the melody and tell me what the lyric was so I could know what I'm working with and know how to weave in between know what lines to support, um, and still maintain a solid groove so you're not thinking about the groove, but feeling the groove, and you're thinking about what's being said. You're thinking about what's being said, but you're feeling the groove at the same time. That's a huge one for me. Um not trying to show, oh, look at these cool licks that I can play.
SPEAKER_00Notice me, ha, I'm over here!
SPEAKER_01Kind of that shit crazy. Um the the real big thing is, you know, and almost in an orchestral mindset. So if you're a modern-day Beethoven or modern-day Bach or modern-day Mozart, what would you do? I mean, if you're if you've ridden the magic flute, you're not writing all this ridiculous stuff on top of the libretto, you know, or if you're writing uh Barbara Seville or what have you. You know, you're you're supporting it. It's you're c it's clever, but you're still supporting it. Foundational. Absolutely, without question. And tonally as well as rhythmically, as well as emotional. Tonally, tonal foundation is huge because you never get a second chance to make a good first impression. Right. Right. Um so tone-wise, what I'm doing underneath matters as much as what I so that um it's not obtrusive, it's not offensive. I was doing a session with an engineer the other day and he was boosting frequencies that I know hurts people's ears. Because that's what he thinks he should do with every bass. I'm like, not that bass But that's you know, that's that's another thing. That's a that's a whole nother thing.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Unlearning some unlearning some stuff. Which a lot of people have to do to to get stuck in ideals and stuck on something that they saw in jeopardy. I don't know. It's just it's it is what it is. But back to back to what you're asking, that's how I approach it. And male singers are definitely different than female singers as far as what I'm dealing with tonally. Because in the bass, 400 frequency about 400 cycles, a good male singer is right there. And but that's a great bass sound too, so I learned from Danny Leek.
SPEAKER_02God rest us all, Danny Leek.
SPEAKER_01What a brilliant brother, man. Absolutely, absolutely brilliant. You know. But I learned frequencies from him in that regard. I mean, I learned a lot from Stanley. A lot, a lot. But the things that I learned about the human voice and and playing, I learned from Danny Leek. And that was a big deal.
SPEAKER_02By the way, uh everybody, Danny Leake, he was a great, great, fabulous engineer.
SPEAKER_01This man knew about uh frequencies, so in space, great recording engineer, great mix engineer, great mastering engineer. It's unusual to have the trifecta. He uh had all that in space.
SPEAKER_02Uh so when I'm just curious, you know, just uh uh checking with you since you mentioned Danny Leek, when uh did you uh work with Danny Leek?
SPEAKER_01I first worked with him in 1990. I was on the road with Johnny Gill, and Danny was doing front of house. That's when I first met him. Yeah, it was 1990. Uh, and he was introduced to me to me by a guy that worked at Motown, a really bright cat named Von Halyard. I know that name.
SPEAKER_02I know that name.
SPEAKER_01Vaughn was programming St. Clavier. He taught me to program St. Clavier. Um gosh, I forgot how he did that. Um yeah, he was that's how I met Danny. And uh we used to hang and you know, we we talked about a bunch of stuff. We talked about his background in the military and crazy background. Crazy. Which, you know, the guys that really did it don't discuss very much of it. And he didn't discuss it very much of it.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_02But what he did tell you is hair raising. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From what he told you, it's like you connect oh, it's easy to connect the dots. And it's it's very easy to visualize.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's very easy to visualize. It's amazing that he could sleep at night, because that's like that's a lot. That's a lot to cat. You know. Brilliant cat, wonderful human being.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And I met him a couple years later when he got with Stevie. And then he was doing front of house, and it's like yeah.
SPEAKER_01And he mixed Bobby Lau's rhythm stories record and engineered it. He mastered my record. Yeah, he was just a renaissance man and a cat. Renaissance. He did a whole bunch of other stuff. Renaissance man. Good brother. Really good brother.
SPEAKER_02Just curious then though, since since we we just mentioned Danny Leake and uh how impactful this man was in music, you know. And also in life, just how from what you knew about him and how he was going through life. So but engineers they seem you know, engineers can big enough lip you, or they could say they can really bring you down.
SPEAKER_01Bring you down. Yes. Yeah, they they can be good mushrooms or bad mushrooms.
SPEAKER_00Booking a fish.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I know some great ones. I know some tremendous ones. And I have known some tremendous ones, because a lot of us in men of a certain age more years behind us in front of us. I've seen some mentors that have uh gone the way of the dodo. So there there are some really great ones that really helped. I learned a lot from so many.
SPEAKER_02Question What do you consider a makes and uh great bass parts? And you know, in and whatever application as ash as you mentioned you know, from you know, the magic flute or s or anything like that. Or or or just working with, you know, you you kind of touched on it, you know, with babyface or or any of the people that you've worked with.
SPEAKER_01I mean that's that's that's an interesting question because it's because it can vary. Sometimes a a great bass part's really complicated, but how it sits. Thinking of that, I was thinking about um it's a bass melody, but it's a bass part too. It's uh it's a Jeff Berlin tune or Joe Frasier. It's just funky. Kill it part, or Stanley's uh Dayride. Or um or My Girl. So it's enough that it's not trying to because Jeff's it's flashy, but it's not trying to be flashy in an odd sort of way. It's just it's just bad, it's Joe Frazier, it's just coming at you.
SPEAKER_02Um you gotta deal with this train, you know.
SPEAKER_01And you're flesh and blood, you're not wearing anything. It's it's the train, you've got inside of another train, you're not in uh uh an 18-wheeler, you just stand in a train company. You know. Or like dayride, you on you and Stanley on day run. You know, that's just boom. That's still a great that's a great and a great bass line. My girl, it's after that first statement, it's just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, but everybody can sing it. Um it's it doesn't it never gets in the way of the melody. It supports the melody in the best possible way, you know. Um one that I love, but is just a little bit beyond was uh Gadros Tisel, Dion Estes. When he was 18, he played in this band called Brainstorm. And there's this tune called On Our Way Home. Jerry Peters did the arrangement. Oh shockful of everything.
SPEAKER_00It is like chock full of everything.
SPEAKER_01You have to listen to it because every possible space is filled, and it goes off without a hitch, but there's just a little bit of it that's unsettling because it's so much going on. Was a disciple of person like Byron Miller, um, like Tony Tony Newton? Tony Newton. Tony Newton. Because Tony Newton was Jameson's sub, which I did not know. Yeah. Tony Newton played with Tony Williams The Lifetime. And he's on some of the recordings when they would do two bass stuff. There's a great interview online about Tony Newton. He's doing two bass stuff. Jameson would have him play the high bass part while Jameson played the low bass. So he's on some of the Motown tracks too. Which Yeah. Which is fascinating. But um you just you never know. I I have a l there's some great bass parts that are super complicated that are super simple. I mean that's Foster playing synth bass on We Can Work It Out, I believe. It's Foster or Greg filling gains. I think it's Foster. You know. Foster's a ridiculously bad synth bass player, which a lot of people don't give credit for. Or um Stevie's synth base stuff. Some of it's just cold. It doesn't get in the way of the song, though.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't it doesn't get in the true. And uh Larry Graham. And Nate could Nate Watson, man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he knows where all the bodies are buried. Of of all the gigs that I don't want, that one is high on the list. That's a terrifying job. Working with a cat that's written so many songs. Because what is it for every song that Stevie's released, there's four you haven't heard, or twenty you haven't heard, something like that. And he's got the what, the 12 different song formulas?
SPEAKER_02Is it so that he's got somewhere betwe between nine and twelve systems? At the price would what makes it?
SPEAKER_01It's 12 systems, and then since there's 12 keys, there's 144 possible combinations that are gonna happen that you have to figure out within the first three seconds.
SPEAKER_02And uh I must tell you thinking that I I know dig digging that, but but I just gotta add to what you just said. There were times, you know, okay, okay, this is with with Stevie. So I'm I'm thinking it's like when it when I got the gig well well for the audition. No, I'm I'd I I heard from Milton Hardaway. Milton tells me, okay, you gotta go back, you know, come back to studio. This is like a month. So I'm you know, I yeah, Stevie, his body of work, so it's like I'm listening to stuff. And so they tell me, he's like, uh uh we want you to be there at 12. And I said, like at 12 noon? They say, oh no, no, no, no, no. No, like 12 at midnight, you know. And I get there, you know, and I I get there at 11:30. Well, Stevie doesn't come into three. Right.
SPEAKER_01What what do you at least they finally worked that out.
SPEAKER_02So Nate comes with it. So Nate gets there with him. And in a nutshell, there was not one song of his that we played. It was he wanted to see how well I could follow him.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Right. And and so it's like this is the person who's buried the bodies, and the bass player is the one who knows where the bodies are buried. Well, bodies are buried. He knows where everything and and and there would be gigs where all of a sudden Stevie would start playing something, and and and then you know, Nate's giving me a cube, and it's like, you know, come in, and it's like I'm coming in. And I start, what song is this?
unknownWhat the song?
SPEAKER_01He says, He's like, I don't know. Yeah. And he's but he's playing it. But he's fine. Like he's like he's midy to Stevie. Like he's mid-y to Stevie. It's you know, filling games, Greg called me to do the Songs of Key of Life tour to conduct for a little bit when the kids were being born, but he said, you know, this is one synth bass part you you'll have to play. And I found out later I didn't have to play synth bass, which made me mad because this one part, I was like, I can't quite make it grew. So I I I backed out because I didn't want to I didn't want to mess up, you know. And you know, you don't want to mess up songs of kids. I remember buying that vinyl. I don't want to mess that up because that's deep, you know. But I I should have called Nate about it and asked him. That that's uh that's a hard ass chair. That's a hard I mean I've stepped into I've subbed for Stanley. And that's that's saying something. Subbing for Nate, I I I I have a couple friends that have subbed for Nate and they crashed and burned like I don't have words for it. Like Jam on the top of me. You know, and I'm I'll have a pair on me. I'll I'll jump into a situation, but not that one. Not that heck, I I played Summer Song with uh Indiana Re one time and playing all the synth base stuff. I was like, this is brilliant. That's a brilliant bass part that's busy, that doesn't get in the way, and it's just gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, he's as far as writing bass parts that don't mess you up but are still happening, I think he's gotta be in the top three. In the top three.
SPEAKER_02I wanna I want to ask you just just a little sidebar, uh, you know, speaking about Stevie, and this is also about Detroit. And I'm curious, do you know, you know, uh James Jameson but Ron Carter. They're also they're from Detroit. I wonder I didn't know Ron was from Detroit. I think Ron Ron is from Detroit. So I'm curious to know if if if they ever cross paths?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, did they? They probably did when you think about it, because Jameson was playing upright around town.
SPEAKER_02And he's he's on a upright on the on a lot of those those Motown systems. A lot of them. A lot of them.
SPEAKER_01He is a well-recorded cat. Yeah, I I I would imagine that they had met that they run across each other. I don't know which one is older. I think Jamerson is probably older was older than Ron. Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but by the way, uh the Maestro just celebrated his I think 89th birthday.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. 89 years old. And still playing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I I think he was they did a a week at the Blue Note or something like that. Anyway, incredible.
SPEAKER_01Always clean, pocket square. Like the board in the house, man. Yeah, man.
SPEAKER_02Cleaner than so I want to ask you, what uh of the numerous sessions that you've done, are there any sessions sessions that change the way that you think about your role as a bassist? Or just s something such a was memorable. Just like, wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, there's yeah, there's some good memorable well, us with David Lynch. I mean, talk about absolute us, usually. All the stuff I did as a kid with my buddy Lucci and Paul Goldberg and Bob Sterling, we would do some really neat, crazy stuff. I mean, I got to do headphone feedback with David Lynch. I never get to do that on a record with my bass.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the yeah, the yeah, ladies and gentlemen, you may not know that that Reggie and I, we did we performed studio recorded.
SPEAKER_01How many things did we do did we do with the lunch? Yeah, we did um because we were the West Coast band. I know was it Buster and Grady Tate were the East Coast band?
SPEAKER_02I think so.
SPEAKER_01I think so. So we were the West Coast band, so we did uh Twin Peaks Firewalk with me part of it. We did part of Julie Creek. Yes, we did some commercials, and we did other stuff like other movies, other stuff. And then he put out a record of of our stuff, and then you and I went to Paris with We did a live gig at the at the Olympia. We did a live gig at the Olympia. That's right. With Blue Bob. Blue Bob. Which is wholly different from the other music we're playing. Way different. Oh no, yeah. At the time you and I were working with David, I think we were also touring with Stanley and George Howard and Mickey Howard. Yes. And then you were doing other, and you and I were playing straight ahead gigs together, which which I used to love.
SPEAKER_02Was that was that with was that with was Billy Charles in there?
SPEAKER_01I think we did some stuff with Billy. We did some stuff with Billy, some stuff with Sonny, and then we played with that what uh David Mammoth's brother, Bob. Yes. Wow. And with Pat Kelly on guitar.
SPEAKER_02Yes. It's still in there, folks. It's still in there. It's rolling around like marbles, but it's in the middle. Ladies and gentlemen, Reggie Hamilton and I have some serious history, man. Hey everybody. I hope you enjoy what you have to.