Gerry Brown and Reggie Hamilton discuss groove (part 2 of 2)

This is part 2 of Gerry Brown's conversation with the versatile bass wizard, Reggie Hamilton (Seal, Babyface, Thalia, Queen Latifah, Christina Aguilera, Anita Baker, Bette Midler, etc.). They don’t put your name on an instrument unless you have groove!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Yeah, I was explaining to students about um how you and I used to um let's say we're playing some trio gig and we would take on musical persona. Like you spend the you like okay I'm gonna do Jimmy Cop the whole day. Like, okay, I'll I'll do people or I'll do I'll say I'll do Tommy Potter, like mix it up cats and they didn't play together, you know? Or I'll be Sam Jones and you'd be Papa Joe. It was fascinating. You know, and I explained it in uh I used to talk about it in my rhythm section class at USC, how I would make the students be other players. How would they approach this court? Okay, and three, two. That was terrifying. It's like putting them in the hot seat, you know, but it was really good for them because it's like reading more books, you know. How how to become literate on one's own self. But we have to read other things. We have to read Michner, we have to read John Irving, we have to read you know uh Evelyn Waugh, which whatever it is, you know, but that's how we become more literate and have develop our own things by experience either like we read or we play.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Of knowing the history, which if you know the history, then you increase your vocabulary.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not just learning everyone can learn the words. How to converse is a huge thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

And and what we do is the conversation between the musicians people who come to to see events, you know, they may have their reasons, but at the end at the end of a of a show, you know, for me it's like how was my conversation with everybody in the band and whoever is leading singer and or whatever, you know, and and and you touched on it very much. It's like no one knows the lyrics, you know, and it and um for me it's like okay, yeah, the lyrics, but that tempo's got to be right for those lyrics to come out smooth.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Absolutely. And and the phrasing and the feel. Yes. It's I was just thinking of something. There's two ways to look at fills. Oh, almost like guitar fills, or anything, there's two ways to look at it. I mean, just from a conversational standpoint. You know, there are people that wait to talk, there are people that listen and then respond. You know? So with the listening and respond, you imagine being around a bunch of friends and one guy tells a story. So there's maybe three or four friends together. Maybe one chimes into the story or one talks over the story. It's like uh telling a joke as opposed to saying things like, oh man, that was did you hear that? A fill can be that way. Someone sings a phrase and that fill accents what the phrase was. Did you hear that? You know, responding to it as opposed to talking over it and playing something completely different and out of the loop that meant absolutely nothing to the music. Which means I dread to say that I hear it more than I I want to these days. It's it's and it's I have to chalk it up to it's a new world of music. It's changing. But even with music changing, conversations in the 23rd century should fundamentally be the same thing as conversations in the 14th century. You're communicating. It it should be relatively the same. Whether what you're playing might be different or out. It could be out. I mean, Arnette Coleman the shape of Jazz to come is some bad stuff. It's still a conversation. You know, um Anthony Braxton, still a conversation. You know, um Stockhausen, still a conversation. You know. And yeah. You can play 12-ton row all day, still a conversation. Elliot Carter, still a conversation. Hendrix tripping balls, still a conversation. You know? That's that's the difference. That's the difference, at least for me. I know that's off on a tangent, but no, it's not. No, that kind of what makes a great bass line, or what makes a great drum groove, what makes a combination of the two. Because that's a huge thing. You know, you and John Lee, you and Stanley, you and Nate. Those are called those are great conversational duos. You know. That's that's a huge I mean, at least for music has changed so much that there's a lot of drum programming and there's a lot of synth bass programming. And there's a lot of electric bass preconceived stuff that, you know, someone's gonna play um all diminished stuff over this line because they're they've worked out the scale, pulling out the tonic and you know, whatever. But it's not the same as communicating, it's not the same as listening and responding as opposed to waiting to respond. Because you can listen, decide not to respond, and still be grooving and just leave that space alone.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah, leave that space is is music. Space is music, it's a breath. And in that space there's magic. Yeah. Get out of there, leave that alone. Leave leave leave that space alone. Get off that space, leave that space alone.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Get out of no no, no, no. I mean, if you listen to Larry Graham playing hair, as dense as that is, there's a lot of space in there to get down. A lot. Yeah. I I hate to jump on a soapbox, but what's really bothering me about the state of funk today or what kids think funk is. Oh man, it's brutal. It's like frenetic. And it's I don't want to name names, and I'm I'm not gonna name names, but it's I know I'm at a certain age where I'm like non-well it's done. And I have like the least amount of fear at the end of, you know, it's my career, whatever, it flames, dwindles, whatever it does. Um but I don't want to name names to hurt anybody's feelings, I guess. I'll tell them directly. Because I'm gonna I'm still good at that. But it's it's frenetic and it's you know, there's there's a time for maybe one or two tunes to have that, that sense of urgency, you know, electricity. But everything, it just it just sounds like a bunch of BB guns going off. It ain't no ain't no real firepower up there with that. It's just a bunch of BB guns. You know, and it's the plastic ball bearings. It's not even real mate. It's like horror's old guns, um, the plastic BB guns are yellow. Remember the yellow buttons? Yeah, it's like that. It's like it's like everybody's having a war with that on stage. It's like ain't no real firepower going on. It's not like you and Joe Henderson going to town. It's you know, it's I have an issue. I have an issue. Yeah, I mean, that's why when you listen to Marcus, that's why he brings that fuck home so much. He's not playing like all upend like pick beep, big bee, big, you know, it's like big old one like Bach. Like Bootsy.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

You knew where the one. Here's the one.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Here's the one Yep. Even if it's a slow one, ooh, do get you know what I mean? That's you know what that one is. That's there's no there's everything is one with the with the new the new funk, can I say that? New funk-like features of music. I don't know. But I I I need to jump on my i I'm off my soapbox about that now. So kids play slow sometimes. That's all I can say. Yeah. Slowly roll a little bit. There's so much in it. Girls dance better.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Or another uh another possibility of of of practice is okay. You know you can play all these other notes. Can you play a quarter of those notes that you play and make it happen?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Make it happen. Can you play one note and make it happen? Why is BB King still the king? One note.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

One note. Answer, so you so you just mentioned BB King. So I finally met recently Rod Bland.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Oh wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Bobby's son, Bobby Blue Blanda. He plays drums. How he plays drums, man. Oh with that groove.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

You know.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

You know these I don't want to say they beat it into him, but that the heck that grooves was so sometimes, you know, I happen to be uh like on Instagram, and then all of a sudden it's Rob playing live. It's like, oh, let me see this motherfucker. Let me see what he's doing. And he's got the camera there, and he's just, you know, if he's playing at a club. Oh my man, hey, the park is down in the lint.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yep. Just grooving. Man Yeah, just grooving. And the fills accent to groove. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah. He's not playing anything with yeah, just grooving. Non-sequitur. Speaking of different styles of music. Jerry Jamott's playing on the thrill is gone. He's also playing on the revolution will not be televised. Oh. I'm just putting that out there for y'all. Jerry Jamott's a bad man. Jerry Jamont.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yes, he's still a bad man.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

He's still a bad man. So the revolution will not be televised, and the thrill is gone.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

That's the same person.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Same person. A couple with all the other stuff, with him playing with Aretha, all the other stuff. So Jerry Jamont. Yeah, that's that's the other thing. So in order to make a great bass line, I think it's important to really understand your history. I mean, cat like Joe Osborne, who played on all that other, you know, he was in the wrecking crew. But he's also listened to him play with Simon Garfunkel on America. It's basically a bass solo throughout the tune, but you never notice it until you really listen. He's like, man, he's playing some beautiful stuff. Joe Osborne was a bad dude, but he had a lot of information that he could pull from. That's a huge, it makes a huge difference. You know, if you're just listening to the wine-ins and you're listening to Commissioned and you're listening to Yolanda Adams and uh Donnie McClurkin, um, BBC, or just in that scene, you're only getting that perspective. If you're just listening to The Killers or Bush or My Chemical Romance or any of that stuff, you're just getting that perspective. So you're just listening to Bob, which is not bad, but you're gonna be just there. You know, if you're just stuck in the days of PC, Sam Jones, Wobbleware, Tommy Potter, and you're not really listening to Ron or listening to Cecil McBee as much because they've moved forward, you know, understanding Ron's sound, and you're just playing with gut strengths, okay, cool. So you're just there. You're basically you want to become a museum piece as opposed to moving forward in things. There's a there's something to be said, whether you like it or dislike it, there's something to be said for studying music. Are you a musician, are you or just a jazz musician, or just a rock musician, or just a funk musician, or just a gospel chops musician? If you're if you're pigeonholing yourself in any one of those things, then you're missing out. A disservice. You're doing yourself a disservice, not only to music, but to yourself. That's like I'm never gonna go to Italy because I don't eat pasta. Okay. I'm never gonna go to Japan because I don't eat sushi. Okay. I'm dumb to your sound right now. I'm never gonna go to France because the Eiffel Tower scares me. It's in Paris. Go to Toulouse. Go to Aix and Provence, you know, go to Moules. Do what? Do something. But be a part of something greater than yourself, greater than this one aspect of things. You know, it's not so much are we making music or are we just trying to make money? If that, there's better ways to make money.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Beautiful words of wisdom. Much bigger. Beautiful words of wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

It's just my take on it. I mean, well, there's I don't want to do the humble bragging thing, but I was lucky enough to be on a session yesterday. I I and I have friends in town that refused to learn to play upright, they refused to play with a pick, they refused to use pedals, they refuse to play different styles of music. They had refused to read. And I couldn't turn them on to work, I couldn't turn them on to other situations. So they were stuck in this little bubble. And that's where they stay. You know? Hey, pick up a fretless, learn how it works. You know? I've I've got two young cats, both great bass players in town, neither one of them play with the bow. I can't understand that.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

I'm teaching.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Right.

unknown 17:26

What?

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Right. We don't want to play with the bow. In fact, there was a whole bunch of students at a at a particular school where the teachers, they were studying upright and the teachers weren't making them play with the bow. Again, mind blown. Mind blown. Higher institution of learning. Teachers weren't making them play with the bow. And I had to ask them, I'm like, why?

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Why would you work with it? Was was this a higher learner? Was this a Yes? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yes. I mean, if you if you're going to I mean what TMA, TMA, you had to play with the bow.

unknown 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Right? Curtis, you gotta play with the bow. But Curtis is specifically for that. But those kids come up playing all kinds of music. You know, there's a bad young bass player in New York named Maggie Cox. She plays electric bass. She can play with the boat. She could swing. She sings. She's a bad, she's a bad dude. She's bad. But there's lots of them. There's like the the uh I can't remember the cat that plays with um what's the band? Um Punch Brothers. He also attended Kirk's. Really bad dude with the butt, but he can swing. I'm sure he plays electric bass well, he can write, he's part of something, he's not just there playing bluegrass. He can play orchestra music, he can bop, he can play with the bow, he can play pits. And I bet you if a Beyonce melody came on, he knows him. Because he's aware he's vocabulary. Vocabulary. It always comes back to that. Remember how many brothers we knew back in the day? We'd go to Japan and they'd say, Man, I gotta go to the embassy. For folks at home, that means they're going to get battles because they won't eat sushi or they won't have ramen or they won't have uh yakitori or sukiyaki or sabu shabu. So they're gonna go to McDonald's instead. Now, you're gonna travel around the world, around the world to eat processed foods. That's bonkers. So, again, for me, that's like spending your whole life, you're going around the world, but you're only going to play one style of music, not study and learn other styles and music, not participate. That's what makes Adam Blackstone great. That's what makes Derek Hodge great. These are young bass players that are killing it today because they're open to other things. And these are the guys that, you know, Derek Hodge or Adam Blackstone might be the musical directors for the Grammys or for the Oscars. They're producing and they're MDs and they're writing scores, they're doing Broadway plays and musicals. These cats are moving forward because they're participating, they're studying history, being present, and they're not afraid to check other stuff out. That's uh I know I'm back on the soapbox again. I should just either burn it or put it to the side. Just sit down.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

No, no, don't burn it. Do not burn it. Do not burn it. Don't ever do that, Reggie. Don't ever do that.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

It's uh you're really doing yourselves a disservice. We're all we you know, we and I mean sometimes we'll get older, like me, I'm getting older, and I don't listen to as much new music, because there's some artists that I don't know. Um and I I kick myself in the butt for it. I'm like, you gotta keep focusing, you gotta keep striving, you gotta keep checking stuff out. Not not new players playing straight ahead tunes, mind you, but new music. You know, you have to check out new players check playing their stuff. Uh young brother Cole Davis, bad dude. He's he's killing it. Cole Davis? Cole Davis. He can bop and he knows the fingerboard well, he plays some beautiful lines. But have to other stuff to check out. And with knowing your history, I gotta go, I'm back on the soapbox again. You know, I uh there's a lot of these young artists, the the new young jazz artists, they'll be playing something in thirteen. But it's just this one phrase in thirteen that they're playing. And that's all they'll play through the whole tune. And it's that's that's not really playing mixed meter at that point. You're just sort of doing an acidato, because it happens to be a thirteen. As opposed to you playing with RTF. And and two bars down the line, you have this line in 5'8, you're back into uh 6'4 for a minute, and you're moving through things or playing with childs, where there's some music to be played, and it's not just like this catchy phrase skip to bed book book to pick and that's all you're doing. That's that's not enough.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

And I'll I'll bring up you know back in the day with Herbie and Mwadishi and and Buster. Yeah. And Buster. Buster what's on electric base. On electric base.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Dealing, mind you. Dealing. And then playing on upright with Sarah Vaughn and then playing bass behind Ron Carter. Dealing. For those of you that know Mr. Carter, he does not suffer fools. So if he's got Buster Williams being bass, it's for a reason. He does not suffer fools. He does not suffer fools. And if Buster Williams is playing bass behind him, it is for a reason. I've spoken. That's right. Microp.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Mike up. Oh my God. So you know so with all that you said and I I I'm feeling that there will we have to have more conversation because it's so compelling and hopeful that some of the younger musicians will check this out, you know, because you know, this we're t you know, we're it's I'm feeling uh that when I I speak to you or if I speak to Karen Briggs or something like that. It's like my the ancestors are kind of like ask her the ask him this question to see what see what comes out and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

See what comes out.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

See what comes out and then the ancestors well done. So we're gonna have to have another conversation, but just want to ask you in closing what do you hope younger bassists will understand, or hopefully they they will understand about building a lasting musical life, musical journey?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

I I I know in the age of AI, it's very it's it's very easy to to fall to to its ways and charms because it it produces product. It doesn't really produce great bass product yet. It produces really good drum product and guitar rhythm, like rock rhythm stuff, because it's kind of easy to recreate. I like like a bag of chips. I hope that the bass players will make a meal for themselves as opposed to going for the easy bag of chips. Because that it kind of satiates you for a moment, but it provides no nutrients. And it doesn't keep you going through one good meal can keep you going through the day. Protein will stay in your system for a while, you know. The vegetables will do provide the minerals and and the like, and complex carbs that you'll get from broccoli to the simple carbs. I I can't remember which. I think it's simple carbs. Um that's enough. But you have to make that meal as opposed to going to uh the bag of chips that's in the cup. Make the meal for yourself. Do I know that's uh you know what I'm saying? That's what it comes down to. It's like practice your scales, practice your reading, get involved in other situations. If there's a if there's a fusion band, play in it. If there's a metal band, play in it. Sure, you might not necessarily meet whatever the aesthetic is, but that's because that's the politics of business. But that has nothing to do with the music itself. You know, if you don't know how if you don't happen to have long number five hair, you know, playing uh Quiet Riot, so what? You should be able to play it. You should be able to play ACDC stuff. You should be able to play um Back and Black. You should be able to play Black Dog. You should be able to play Zeppelin. You should be able to you know what I mean? Um and at the same time, you should know how a blues works. There's some great bass players in town that cannot play a blues. In fact, there's a friend who hired a dad who was a great musician, and the friend, uh because I can't name names because they're alive and wow, and the friend had a friend that came over to the house. The dad was like, That can't play a blues. How is he working? Learn to play a blues so somebody's dad doesn't say that about you. And not a jazz blues, a Texas blues, a Chicago blues, a Delta blues. Learn how they Kansas City blues, learn how they all work. There is a difference, you know. Learn a box shuffle, learn at the same time, learn how to play anointed. If you've been playing rock music, learn some gospel tunes, you know, learn take yourself out of your environment and explore. Don't go to Japan and go to McDonald's. Don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Oh, I was gonna say go to Japan and yes, you mentioned Yakutori, Shabu Shabu, but you go every day to Lawsons.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Yeah. The 7-Eleven here is different from the 7-Eleven there. Explore. Explore, you know. I mean, I I I don't I'm I'm guilty of I don't do it enough myself. I mean, my my career has been real I know we sh we're running, we're going to going over time. My career has been really fascinating. And maybe that just works for me. I I I still try instill that in my students. Like I've I've got a former student, Joshua Crumbly, he's out with Big Thief, playing rock with a pick. Now, Joshua also played in Terrence Blanchard's band. Oh. You know what I'm saying? And so he is living the life, and he has a career playing music. So he was touring Japan playing with another jazz trio, then he's out playing rock, then he plays with some funk groups, then he has his own records, but he is living the life as a bass player. The guys that we admired, I wanted to be like Stanley Clark when I was a kid. Stanley was playing with Aretha, he was playing with Joe Henderson, he was playing with Stan Getz, playing with Return to Forever on Electron Bass and on Upright, dealing, and still only giving 5% of the amount of talent that he actually has, which a lot of people are never going to know what you and I know about him.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yes, and ladies and gentlemen, I must tell you, just you just have to imagine this because it's true. Reggie and I would go to Stanley's house and interrupt his day. And we go in there and we'd start dealing, and he'd have to deal with us.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

But he could deal. But he could deal. That's the thing. He could deal. I mean, he he can write. But you know, look at the breath of work playing with the New Barbarians, playing rock groups, he and Jeff Beck. That's not a guy that's just a jazz bass player. That's a a musician that happens to play bass. Be musicians, but your voice happens to be this one particular instrument or two particular or three particular instruments. What's it? Julius Rodriguez, bad keyboard player, young brother. Great drummer, great bass player. Ridiculous Pino, but and sings, as far as I know.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Oh, and sings? Oh, God.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

But but you know, it's not it's not like, all right, he's just playing funk and he does this. He does this on any style of music. That's that's a different kind of cat. But all I'm saying is be open. Be open to experiences. I did not expect that I'd be playing with David Lynch. I did not expect that I'd be playing for Babyface for 14 years doing records or arrangements or playing live with him. I knew I wanted to play with Stanley Clark and and Herbie and George, and I did all that within the first couple of years of being in LA. But I did not know about the other stuff. I did not know that I'd play with uh John Sykes or John Mellencamp or Robbie Robertson or uh Warren Zavon. I had no idea. SEAL. SEAL. Me uh working at Death Row. I had no clue. You know, or um getting to play some film dates, because there's some really I'm a I can play with the bow and sometimes I'm amazing. Well, not amazing, but sometimes I'm good. And sometimes, you know, it's I'm sometimes I'm the bug, sometimes I'm the windshield. But you know, there's guys like Mike Valerio, Ed Mears out there. Another what's it? Um, Mike Elizondo. Look at that cat. All right, so Mike Elizondo did all the stuff with Dre and with Eminem, but he was he's a would have been a great orchestral bass player. Would have been a great orchestral bass player. And still plays really, really, really well, even though that's not what his focus has been. So be one of those cats. Um there's a uh a friend of mine who I used to give some lessons to, uh, Duff McKay plays with Guns and Roses. Right. He wanted to expand his vocabulary. So he wanted to at the age that he was, and he's younger than me, he wanted to play differently and do more stuff. That's what you want to be. You want to be in a constant state of learning while we're here. That's what we should do. It's like I don't want to go outside because this is fine. Your your taste buds can not only adapt but revel in newness. And your musical taste buds can do the same. All right. I've got a former step. So Oh yeah, we'll talk more. We will talk more because I know time is we will talk.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

We will talk again and the next time we talk I wan I want to talk about your like your solo work and and how that has between your solo work and how that trans it it transfers to your session work and then back and forth. I'm just putting that seed out there, but we gotta talk again because there's there's so much man, you are you are one of those people, man, that talks from so much wisdom. And a little bit of my soapbox. A lot of that wisdom is missing in the music that is presented as music.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

I I uh you know, that is when you say that it's like I I said this line, I I've I've fallen down a lot. That that also comes into the view of not being afraid to make mistakes and try. Like uh Rostrapovich, Mysl Rostrapovich was this great he conducted the National Symphony and was this brilliant cellist who was best friends with um Russian composer um the 1950s, uh Shostakovich. But he would talk about the importance of having ideas more than being able to play perfectly well. So that means he's stretching and reaching for new things constantly. And that's what I'm always doing. At least I'm trying to. And if you fall down, just get back up. Just get back up. Just get back up. Truck your knees off and get back up and do it again. And do it again.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

It's mistakes that give you the opportunity to learn.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah, Stravinsky actually said that. Um he learned principally by mistakes, not by stuff that he was able to do over and over. I I can't quite remember the quote, but it's it's that's the way. That is the way. And mediocre composers borrow great composers steal. That happens in music as well. You know, um, you can bet your butt that um train and bird took something from Don Bias and from Coleman Hawkins. You know they did. Yeah, and Coleman Hawkins, I bet you took something from Big Spiderbeck, who was a bad man, as I understand. I think he was the first one in the 27 club. He died at 27. Bad trumpet player. You know, you listen to um Pharaoh Saunders. You know he had some training him because he could play. But he also had his thing. But you have to have that history. We no matter what we think, we stand on the shoulders of those that came before us. You might think you're playing the baddest stuff, but it's been played. It's been played. So you have to it's been played. You have to constantly search. You know, there's a whole bunch of guys still trying to play like Jocko. It's a whole bunch of if the dudes can understand Stanley, because they're not even trying to play like him on the right, because it's just so hard. It's just so difficult. Because everyone just thinks he's playing hooly hoodly hoo. He actually can play the bass in ways he just do not understand. I'm just gonna put that out there because I find out F-A-F O. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is total FAFO if you think it's just like a little hoodloo. Because he can read, read, read, read, read. He's a he's a bad man. And you are a bad man too. Well, we'll see. And thanks for having me on your show.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

There'll be more there'll be more conversations. Look forward to it. My brother, blessings to you, man. Blessings, man.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

And then to you.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

All right, man. Thank you. We really must think about it.