Episode 14: Using Data to Direct Sales with John Hamlin

Car Guy Simple is proud to have John Hamlin of Hamlin & Associates; Ad Age and Automotive News Award Winner for Best Use of Data 2025!

Joe and John sit to talk about the new age of using tech and AI to correctly, successfully, and profitably market to your clients using direct mail! What’s old may be new again, with modern day tricks of the trade it’s time to effectively clean up your CRM and target potential customers.

Keep listening and remember to like and subscribe. At the Car Guy Simple Podcast we’re committed to helping the Auto Industry as a whole, because when we all do better the industry does better! Car Guy Simple is Powered by PMD! A Full-Service Ad-Agency dedicated solely to automotive advertising.

Reach out to Hamlin & Associates for yourself today!

Visit them at hamlinandassociates.com!

Or give them a call today 888-600-8608!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Accelerate your dealership success. This is the Car Guy Simple Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Welcome back, Joe Levine from Car Guy Simple, the podcast for anybody, retail, wholesale, or otherwise, in the vehicle segment, right? New vehicle sales, used, service and parts. If you're in the retail automobile business, you're in the right place. So welcome. And today, we're, I don't even know how to blow this up without blowing it up. I get the opportunity to chat with one of my oldest friends in the car business, a guy that I have a lot of respect for, somebody who really doesn't need much of an introduction, other than please say hi to John Hamlin, the president, CEO, and absolute most knowledgeable person I've ever met beyond mail and data, Hamlin Associates. John, thanks for being here today. Pleasure. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Well, it's it's our pleasure. You know, we don't get the opportunity to have people at your altitude come on, and and as you know, we don't monetize this. You came of your own free will. Hopefully you won't regret this. I'm only kidding. And uh and our job here today is to talk about some things that hopefully people can take back to their store or stores, group or otherwise, at any level, and plug in and make money with it. That's what we're here for. And and and the reason that this is happening, right? So let's dig right in, shall we? Let's start with your background, man. What so why the car business? Why the Hamlin Associates, why not 17 dealers? We've known each other over 20 years now. Tell us about John.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Okay, well, John, when he was about 12 years old, right? Okay, lived in a trailer park in Portland, Oregon with his mother. And the the guy with the nicest trailer, right, and drove a nice car because they gave demos back then. And he had a pocket full of money, um, was a car salesman. And I just looked at this guy like he was God, he was so cool. He gave me money when I wanted to buy my mom a Mother's Day gift. We were very poor. And I from that time on, honestly, at 12 years old, I'm gonna be a car salesman. At 14, I started washing cars at a dirt lot on 82nd Avenue, and always would say to the owner, Sam, I want to sell cars. He said, What do you have to do? 18. 18th birthday. I came in with a suit, had a suit on, right? Didn't know how to tie a tie. And he's like, So what do you have to, Johnny? And he does this, he does this uh single Windsor, double Windsor, you know, and I said, Well, I want to sell cars because you don't want to sell cars here. There's a third line on 82nd Avenue. He picks up the phone, he calls Jesse Harris at Mike Solder Pontiac and says, I have a guy for you. And he went down there, they hired me, and it was in the car business.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

What kind of training did you get?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Um, not much. They throw you to the woods back then.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

So they just said, Go get them, kid, and that was it? Right. So it was sink or swim.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, and I started out with sure it was a pretty car, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 2:58

I mean, I didn't know anything.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

How long did it take you to sell your first unit? Um, actually, the odd part, and I think this will ring true with a lot of people. I did really well my first month, really well. Second month, I fell flat on the city.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Were you spending in the second month what you made in the first month, and you got into a little bit of country club? I'm taking it easy.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

I think they called it you got your dealer plates back then. I don't know what they call it today, but it's like got smart, and I was not smart.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Did you get your tie cut on the first one? Now, how long ago was that?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

That was uh I was 18 years old, so good lord, that was I don't know, to do the math.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Still cutting ties today, still doing that. Why do we cling to what we've done for decades? Why is why is that?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

It it works, it's real, it's fun, it's it it's tradition. Yeah, you know, I think people love tradition.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

I do. But tradition sometimes gets masked and confused with habits, right? And we we've talked about this forever, right? And we'll get into data and all kinds of other things because really you're not a malehouse. A malehouse is is we we pick zip codes, we pick a demographic, we drop, we wait for the mail. You're not a male house. And we'll get into that in a in a little bit. But I I think uh what when it comes to mail, what do you feel is the most the single largest failure that dealers do when they think about and execute mail in uh off the top of your head, and then we'll dig into why you look at it differently. What's the biggest fail?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

The biggest that's a great question because it this needs to get out that the biggest fail is treating direct mail as if it's I need a big weekend and so I'm gonna do direct mail this weekend. That's just so 1980s 90s. It totally is. You know, and and and so when I get a call and it's like hey, look, I need I need a big weekend. I call it the 911 call because they're they're in a panic. Yeah, yeah. Right? And they clearly we have clearly failed to explain our product because that's not who we are.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Well, it's true. I mean, I'm I remember when I when I first bought my Chevy dealership and I I I borrowed everything that I could. I leveraged everything like everybody does when they go into business, right? Went through five agencies the first year I was a dealer. That was a paid political announcement for PMD. How you doing? Good to see you. It's all about well, it's all about the you as well. But but the point is, like, I I had people what do you want to do this weekend? I want uh I pay my mortgage, I gotta sell cars, I gotta, I gotta fill my service lane, I gotta do, I gotta do, I gotta do. And and and and you worked through all of that. Um if there was if there was a series of things. I'm asking you these questions before we dig into why what you do works, because we're we're gonna get into this award in a little bit. Because you didn't pay for this. I got one of these recently in the aim. Congratulations! You've been awarded the 2025 ad agency of the year, and and everything was misspelled, it was from Europe, and for 76 pounds, I could write a check and I got the award. But that's not this. So, first, let's do cause and effect, and then we're gonna dive into what Hamlin and Associates thinks, breathes, works with, and why people come back and back and back. And to invert this and get people to really pay attention, watch this one. Fixed ops over variable ops is what pays for the sales that you do. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

We're gonna get there, which is isn't that it's unheard of in the mail business. I was actually shocked. I had a client tell me that. Right. Well, well, and we're gonna and I and I'm gonna ask you to tell that story in a little bit, okay? Right? Um when we when we talk about future strategies, let's invert that. What do you think the past what is the difference between the past strategies, current strategies, and do you think that future strategies in your corner of the world need to be different? What has changed, what needs to stay the same, and then let's learn more about what Hamlin thinks I I think and associates versus John Hamlin, of course.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

I I I think the the most important thing, I mean the technology, the new technology needs to be embraced. It needs AI is definitely a part of that, but wait a minute, be careful, okay? Because I've seen it do things that that work and I've seen it do things that doesn't that are fail it that fails, and the dealers' ability to embrace that, not be afraid of it, and look at what what they should be doing and what they should not be doing.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Well, let's talk about that then because AI, big buzzword, everybody's AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI, AI. Forget the blue pill and the matrix and all that other stuff. AI. Useful, dangerous. Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Why useful? Useful because like I I have a mail, a mail manifest of every call that came in, right? And no dealer wants to click on that and listen to 150 calls, right? Right. So they can type in a buzzword, right? And AI will search out the go scroll through and tells us, okay, which where was appointment mentioned? When was this mentioned? And so we could cut buzzwords so they can literally listen to a hundred phone calls by script just by scrolling and see where it was good, where it was not good. Yeah, fair point. Yeah. So there's a good idea, a a bad idea is when you have um you're calling the low hanging fruit linging fruit, which you know, the equity mining and things like that that have happened have hurt the car business in a little bit in a way, because they keep going back to the same people, and people don't like that. And so what the result was was okay, salespeople are no longer calling these people because they're saying, Hey, look, this customer's cussing at me. And so the reason the the the answer to that was we'll just have AI call them. Are you kidding me? So hiding behind tech is something you're seeing more and more of. Well, how would you feel if you were a customer and I told you three or four times, stop calling me? And so the the decision was, oh, we just we want him gone, we'll just have AI calling. I would love that.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

No, I would not love that.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

That's that's just not thinking clearly if you ask me. Correct. That's where AI can be deadly.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

So so now let's just jump this across to Well, let me let me start off. Let's talk about Hamlin Associates. Are you doing business how long have you been around? Your company. 1988. So you're new with this, rookie, sorry. Okay. So I'd love to do that to you because it always makes you smile. Um, so are you doing business the same way today that you were in 1988? Identical?

SPEAKER_01 9:37

That is such a great question. Let me tell you why this is a great question. In a way, yes. Okay. Back when I didn't have the technology, and we were all buying lists, right? Right. From DMV and such, right back in the 80s. Okay, here's what my competition would do. They would buy a list and stay five miles inside the dealership, and that way that first sell was a real big win for them, right? But now what do they got to do? Now they go further out the next thing because they just hit these people and then further. And by the fourth sell, it's not working. That was something. So we would buy the zero to 20, 0 to 30 mile radius, and let's say you had you were doing 10,000 piece drops. We would hit every third household so that we can give you consistency in the next three events, not do one really good one, one average one, and one failure, and then get fired. So now what we do is the same thing. We look at the data and some other factors, and we manage that data kind of the same way so that you're not hitting just the low-hanging fruit. Like dealers will say, I just want an equity file. Out of the last 10 deals you sold, how many of them had negative equity? All of them. So do you deliberately want me to not market to the largest group of people that are buying your vehicle?

SPEAKER_02 10:46

But you're not just a software that you hit a button, makes total sense. There's softwares out there that that that point dealers that they they they get a dog in the hunt to okay, here's the path, go find the game to pursue, right? And but it doesn't load anybody's lips. It doesn't tell the consumer anything, it just says, this person's inequity, call them. Do you go beyond that?

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Way beyond.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

I'm listening. Uh way beyond.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

We're all listening. We we look at we we look at, you know, we don't want to drive and and have peek people call their 40,000, 25,000 in equity, although those people do get bought every now and again, right? It does happen. It happens. Um you know, we try to range it to where it's it's in line with what we know we can we can get done. And then we just we say that.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

But you don't scorch the earth on a on a five-mile radius and then burn it out, do you?

SPEAKER_01 11:37

No, no, no, absolutely not. So what's the difference? Well, the difference is because I have I have either your PMA, if you're like Lexus, you can't go out of it, or I have your the radius of your dealership that we think is smart, and we have everything we do is extremely deliberate. Like I've shown comparisons, why do I stay zero to 40 miles at 50, whatever it is, 50 miles? Because I can show you reports from some of the guys that are supposed to be really great masterminds and and and the you know uh of this concept. And the dealer has sent me their reports because they wanted me to make your mail campaign. And I I run through my cleansing process, they mailed 42 different states. Where's the sense in that?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Well, and we're gonna talk about bad mail in a minute versus good mail and what and the cost of that, right? I was referring to a a a dealer, large dealer, um, a scorched earth dealer, not naming names. That's not fair to do. Right. Um, and they used to have to resort to bussing people in from the next state over, literally. That's a true story because they had scorched their local area, right, right? As opposed to being able to understand who to communicate with, when to communicate with them, and how to communicate. Right. Absolutely. But but you don't, you're just not a male house, don't you? Didn't you design see here's where I get to here's where I get to embarrass John. This is gonna be really fun because he's like the wizard. He's not Nostradamus, he's not gonna tell me what the weather's gonna be. Why do people that get that meteorologist thing, they have a five million dollar radar can't tell the weather? But you can give us a direction that software that you have, you give that dashboard to dealers. Why do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

It's evolved from a dashboard to a system of intelligence. What's the difference? The difference is the amount of intelligence it has in what you're in regards to saying. Do this, do not do this, watch track everything. Be honest, us, be honest. We show I can show you every bad event I've ever had for a Klan. Why would you do that? Why would I do that? Because on the top of that report, it shows cost per copy, and the cost per copy is way you wouldn't fire LeBron James for having a bad game, right? But if I can't honestly look at that with you without fear, right, then how can I make the adjustments that are necessary for your store?

SPEAKER_02 13:59

So when so does your software and correct me if I'm wrong, all of your clients have access to that dashboard and you go, you're you and your team, you have a team of people, obviously, so you're not working out of your trunk. Uh you probably started that way, like we all did, but you don't do that anymore, right? We when you have that dashboard and you have those those those performance discussions regularly, do you do you all refer to the same dashboard, which is that dealer or dealership group's dashboard by franchise?

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Yeah, and that that dashboard or system of intelligence will tell us everything. Okay. Tell us tell us how they did different and gross profit, tells us everything we need to know. And it's honest because you can see when you know sometimes it's it's an execution problem. Sometimes we just didn't draw. Now, why? Why didn't it draw?

SPEAKER_02 14:48

How much coaching do you do to help people out of that rut?

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Whatever it takes. What does that mean? I've flown all the way across the country to do an hour kickoff meeting with salespeople. I've gotten on conference calls with them to say, okay, look, we need to be honest here. This is the results, this is the response rate. Here's five other dealers with the same response rate, same type of market area, and look at the difference in the performance. And I'm not abandoning you, Mr. Dealer. I'm saying here that I see the problem is execution. So I'm coming back to your dealership and I'm going to spend more time on execution. Now, if we don't draw, why didn't it draw? What what what did we miss there?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Do you ever have failed sales? Well, I just said we do. I know that. The first time you admitted to that twice in this pod. Yeah. Why why do you admit to that?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

How does that help anybody? Uh you're a car dealer. I used to be. Mr. Dealer, we've never had one fail. Would you believe that? I mean, why would you insult somebody's intelligence? Bullcrap, bullcrap, bullcrap. The lights are lighting up over my head. Here's here's every event we've done. Right. Our cost per copy average is great, but here's one that the cost per copy was eleven hundred dollars, thirteen hundred dollars.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

That's not so successful. So, what I want to do in the last couple of minutes we have before the break, and then I'm gonna really want to peel this back further and get into more nuts and bolts so that we can understand why this award matters and they just don't give it out to people that have 76 pounds and send a check to England, right? Um what do you feel? And this is a great question to end this segment on, okay? What do you feel the untapped avenues for dealers are in 2026 before we even think about seven?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

I think the untapped is is not staying up on the technology, not embracing an actual game plan instead of the hit or miss, right? And and looking at data that like we have on our system of intelligence that can can assist in other areas that have absolutely nothing to do with direct mail. For instance, I I know every bad address you have, right? And we know that service writers, which is what that's one of the game plans, is the person who comes in, is this the correct address, right? All right. How about if we showed them this is a bad address? I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

And that's tease the next segment. What percent on the average? Then this is gonna be a mind blower for everybody listening and watching this pod. Ready? Next question. You ready? I love this one. Okay, tell the whole story. What is the you could you can. Let's let we'll extend out the segment, right? First answer uh, what's the delta? What is the average number of a percent out of 100% of somebody's database, right? What percentage is bad, not mailable, whatever the reason is, it's just a bad address. What percentage?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Well, it's not just bad addresses, it's other things, but it's it what I call is hygiene. Okay, go ahead. And I had a dealer say to me the other day, he goes, these guys say they cleanse the then you're then you're sanitizing in because I I showed you before this. I have a dealer where 80%, based on hygiene alone, 80% of his total number in his database was not good.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Would you have somebody sitting in the back room counting them one at a time? Or does your software be able to mine for that into touch of a button? We know what it is because it's proprietary and it's factual and it's timely. Is that how it works?

SPEAKER_01 18:12

All of the above. Whatever it takes.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

So you'll get that tactile if you really need to drill down. You'll do whatever it happens. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

And we and again, it's on their system of intelligence. We we give to them. There's been a lot of talk about you know companies that that take your database and then sell it back to you. We don't do that, we create a separate box, database, the system of intelligence where you have sanitized data. You know your DMS is not sanitized. People say you push it back in there. Could you push it back in? Why? That's where data goes to die.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

But doesn't the data was it wait a minute. I deliver you a vehicle, right? And as soon as we go through all of what needs to be done for the delivery, and we hit the magic blue button, and you go into the DMS, you're a delivery. Doesn't that make it a valid data entry? And aren't all data entries into the DMS accurate and true?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Um until they move, until they sell the car, until they have duplicate. Uh, one time it's John Hamlin, then I come in for service and it's Jonathan Hamlin. Now I'm getting two letters. It's stupid. I mean, it's it's sometimes I look at it, it's almost criminal that that we wouldn't know, somebody wouldn't know to clean that out. Remember this. Okay. Go ahead. I'm knocking out 80% of your data. I have, just like everybody else, a price per piece. So if there's a price per piece, there's a profit per piece. The more pieces we sell you, the more money we make. And I believe that's why people don't cleanse lists to the level that we do. We're not we're not a direct mail company. We're a tech company that uses direct mail to deliver the tech.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

So that's the if this was a baseball game and I was your catcher, I'd throw them the headah, and I would put the one down, right? Throw them the heada. After the break, we're gonna get into the the curveball, because the curveball is everybody on the planet has this misconception about respondent rate out of their database versus respondent rate on what is commonly misused, and that's the phrase of conquest, right? And we're gonna get into that a little bit in a few minutes. Would you agree that, or no, no, I know you'd agree. Am I getting this right? Is our audience getting this right? That DMS information is important, but not the end all be all. And your software drives results because it extrapolates out things that we don't want to have duplicates and triplicates of to make people mad, to waste money and all that other stuff. And we get targeted activity that drives to showroom traffic. Is that really the end game here?

SPEAKER_01 20:40

It is, and we no longer buy lists. We don't buy lists, we acquire data and and create them. There's a difference?

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Oh, huge. Okay, 60 seconds. Give me the difference, and then we're going to go.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

JM Lexus. I did a conquest mailing for them. I I bought the this is back, I bought the high-end import list, mailed it. Jim and I are lucky that and it's like this thing is failing. It failed miserably, right? And so then I went in and took a deeper dive. And guess what? Their number one trade is a Toyota Camry. Second was a Honda. I mailed to everybody that was not buying their vehicle. And that and that's why it failed. And it was, okay. So what'd you learn from that? Learn to look at top trades for each dealership and say, okay, what do you who there's your customers' database, there's your competitor's database, which we establish, and then who else is buying your vehicle? Well, this is the largest group of people in your neighborhood that aren't driving your cars but are buying them. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

So that's hand raisers and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

And that drives consistent results versus once a quarter and drop in prey and and a four on four big fold out magazine thing, and hopefully there's a payment on there that they like. Because you don't you tailor your message specifically to groups of people versus one size fits all? I will say this. If I did thirty thousand letters for your dealership, all thirty thousand would be. Different. And on that, let's take a break because you're gonna crush this. I want you to cave my head in with that because it matters. That matters. So just give us a 60-second break. Stand by. We're just warming up. Throw them the gita. Nehida. We'll see you in a minute. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Our full service ad agency specializes in providing creative solutions for new car dealerships looking to sell more vehicles, increase service numbers, and promote their brand image more effectively. We use our experience in television, OTT, digital, social media, and more to anticipate challenges and find effective market-dominating solutions so that our dealership partners can thrive in an ever-changing landscape. You can learn more at pmdusa.com.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Since 1988, Hamlin and Associates has been providing dealers advertising and marketing solutions that make a true difference in their sales and customer attention. Here at Car Guy Simple, we're proud to bring you knowledge and information from the best in the industry. And we personally love Hamlin and Associates. But you don't just have to take our word for it. Reach out to John and his team for yourself and learn all about the Hamlin solution. Give them a call or visit their website, Hamlin and Associates.com. Now back to the pod.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Welcome back to CGS Car Guy Simple, the podcast for everybody in retail, regardless of where you reside or do business. Welcome back. We're here with John Hamlin from John Hamlin and Associates, the man, the legend. You're no myth. Let's dive into what that means. Because a lot of people, right, smoke shows and and and I'm not interested in your proprietary secret sauce. I'm interested in deliveries. I'm a car guy. What matters to me is how do we take what we've got and do better and keep those people and retain those people. And the way to do that is not just to rely on your database. The way to do that is to also look outside of the people that you're already doing business with in fixed and variable ops. Would you agree with that? Absolutely. Okay, so let's start with conquest in this segment. Let's start there. Yes, let's do that, shall we? Right? Conquest. Conquest, most people are like, well, you know, because of the rules, and like you, I don't want to know what color the carpet is in the AG's office in any state in the country. We don't want that. We do, however, want to, and it sounds a little creepy, but we do want to be able to send Bernie Schmielpeck a letter, and we're gonna talk about that in a minute, right? What is the content that that speaks to why you should consider talking with us? And if you're not ready for a vehicle, what are the alternatives? You know, what does that look like in your world? Not from understanding how to reach Bernie, but when you find the Bernie Schmielpecs in the world, why does it matter? And how do you communicate? How often do you communicate? And how does conquest in your world, which everybody's afraid of, oh, conquest? It's a fraction of a percent of a return. I don't want to waste money on that. Is it a waste of money? And if not, how does your process work? Well why or why? Why? Why does it work?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

That's all good. It's first off, it's it's the ability to have more intelligence on the conquest than anybody else. Because the more intelligently I can talk to that person, the better the results. And we're our level of intelligence of communication is is outstanding. It's unbelievable. And so we've actually seen, and we can show this, where conquest, as it's called, we don't call it conquest, we call it your competitors database.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Does message drive consumer action? Absolutely. Okay. I knew that was gonna dilate your pupils because for over 20 years you've been hitting me with that phrase forever. Well, most people hear that and they're like, I'm gonna go outside my database and I'm gonna waste my money. How does how in your world, you've proven this, how does message drive activity? What is the message that gets people's attention enough to at least put XYZ motors on their list of stores to talk with?

SPEAKER_01 26:12

It's the because it's not a one size fits all. Again, I if I emailed 30,000 pieces of mail for you, and and and 10 of them were what we call competitors database, right? My message on that, on the on the on the 10 is at much higher level. It's going to speak to them about where, you know, where where they are in their buying cycle. How can we really help them?

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Version A mailpiece is colorful and lively, and it's a it's most of the time it's a a folded tab sealed and it's engaging, and it's versus you don't do that. You actually send people letters, right? In envelopes.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

But the open rate, how do you get around the open rate? You change out the envelope, and you we have a we actually have a a strategy, a system where where people, this group of people, your your ideal customer profiles, which is combining the the list that we just talked about that we created, they're only hit once a quarter. That's what another thing dealers do. They they find something that works and they beat the snot out of it and it doesn't work anymore. They scorch the earth as used that earlier. Okay. So it's only hit once a quarter.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

So you you your prescription as a dealership or dealership group doctor of sorts, right? Because you're an MD of profitability. How you doing? Right? Is don't hit them on a monthly basis, don't keep sending the same colorful, right? Swoopy stuff. You're a quarterly person.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Is that did I get that right? These these this group that we agree upon hit them once a quarter. And here's why. It makes sense. It's a moving target. If I'm talking to somebody about um, say getting out of their lease, the dealer sets a parameter and he says I can pull people forward in about six months. Okay, guess what? Three months ago, you didn't qualify for that. Three months ago, you didn't qualify to lower interest rate. Three months ago, you didn't qualify for equity. Three months ago, you didn't qualify for high interest rate and equity.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

So it's a moving target. And it's one past that though, isn't it? Because if they're not ready for a vehicle now, don't you have one eye on fixed ops as well? Um, we have two eyes on fixed stops. Two eyes. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Hold the phone. Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Um, and it's it's without getting too deep into the guts of this thing. Why is it important to you to engage somebody? Because we're right, everybody listen, I've owned an ad agency for 22 years, and I don't make this work. Our entire team makes it work, right? Our team is large and in charge, right? We're most of the time with new uh relationships. All I hear is, how are you gonna help me sell more vehicles? Well, absorption handles the PL, and you're absorption-minded, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Extremely how does that work in your world? Well, and and this shocked everybody when we started to do it. I can I can ask you as a dealer, right? At what point in time do you consider customer loss? Basically, they're no longer coming in for service. I don't I have a service reminder program, I don't sell it, I don't use it because so does the manufacturer, so does everybody else. I don't I want the to. I want I don't want ones they got, I want the ones they couldn't get.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Slow down for a second. You don't market a predictive service reminder like everybody else. You manage, you want to have one, you want to speak to you have one. Of course you do. You've got it all. It's the the start or sell it. What because you don't need to. Right. The to, could you expound on that? That rang my bell just now.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Well, what I'm gonna ask you as a dealer, at what point in time is has that failed you? At what point in time is a customer lost and not coming out of service? Every time.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Every time that somebody doesn't find a reason to pay attention to us, especially lease lessees that think that the only maintenance they need to do in their leased vehicle is put gas in the tank. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

I some people would definitely believe that.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Okay, so how do we how do we avert that? What is the Hamlin philosophy?

SPEAKER_01 30:03

The Hamlin philosophy is so simple. All right. I if you tell me if a customer hasn't been in for 12 months for service, right, and I'm mailing out this larger group of people, I'm able to then look in and say, okay, has this person not been in for 12 months or longer? Right? And that person, and only that person, receives a PS. And the PS is something to the effect of even if you don't want to take advantage of the above offer, please come in and receive a$25 gift certificate to be used in our service department. It's our way of thanking you for being a custom being a loyal customer. To the to the competitors database, it's uh even if you aren't advantage don't want to take advantage of the above offer, please come in and receive a$40 gift certificate to be used in our service department. Okay, real quick. Come on, keep going.$40 gift certificate, right? It's our way of introducing your family to ours because they've never been to the dealership. So now, guess what? Now they're in your DMS. And the results we are getting on that is unbelievable. The service reminder service companies hate us. Why? Because we've just we don't there's no charge for that. I'm already talking to the customer. I'm just singling out the customer that you say is lost.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

You don't ding people an extra piece for an extra point for that? Nothing. I just sounded like a New Yorker. Well, I actually am. Sorry. Accent, sorry. I can't do the weather in Iowa, but I can sell cars there. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 31:28

And I think you've got a report in front of you that tells you that that that alone absorbed 355% of the cost of the entire event.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

It works. John, uh, I'm sorry, Josh, can I get a TV timeout, please?

SPEAKER_03 31:42

TV timeout.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Thank you. I'm so headbent and confused right now. You just gave away, I don't apologize, it's a story of my life. Uh, college sports beat it out of me, right? I don't understand something. You just gave away a piece, a secret piece that somebody could take and talk to their own male people and put something in. Why won't it work in comparison? Is it the conversation, the quality and the altitude of the conversation with the consumer that you tailor as opposed to just, by the way, you want to know get a free grill.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Other camera, what I wouldn't say is because they can't leave it alone. They'll take a piece of mail that we're doing and they'll say, we need to add just in time for Christmas. And all of a sudden, all of a sudden, it's advertisement. Our letter never once. Have we been in front of the AG or have we put somebody in front of the AG? Okay, we don't have disclaimers. We never have. We don't need them. We're not lying.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

So your disclaimer is no disclaimer because it's not a five-finger disclosure, it's truth and advertising. Boy, isn't that an oxymoron? Truth and advertising, except for you. Right. Why do you adhere to that?

SPEAKER_01 32:48

If somebody said if somebody just heard what I said and they think they're going to copy it, I'm not worried about it because they're going to put it in that they're going to take a personalized letter and make it advertising.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Versus true speak. So you really uh epitomize the phrase truth and advertising.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

I asked the dealer the other day. Go ahead. How well do you think your unsold traffic's being followed up with? I scale one of ten. Well, maybe six. Okay, so then your previous customers, because that would be the most important than your previous customers, how well do you think you're doing with them? Horrible. Horrible. Okay, take a look at that letter. If you didn't sell one car, that personalized letter, would that not solve that problem, even if you didn't sell one car? Because you're reaching out and you're communicating one-on-one. And we have a process as a procedure to keep that believability and everything intact.

unknown 33:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

You know, so it it it it just it doesn't miss.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

So are you is is the philosophy, because I'm I'm hearing of philosophy here, but then philosophy and follow-through sometimes get disconnected, don't they? Big time, right? We've talked about that for years. Right, because problems have no solutions, situations always do. The philosophical one of your tenons of business is no five finger disclosure. And the next one, the transparency of the message, right? Truth in advertising. We get clients all the time say, I want everybody to hear me say we're transparent. And as soon as they walk into this into fixed or variable ops, there's nothing transparent about any of this, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Well, in your system of intelligence, just talk as that.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

You're and for those of you who remember who Popeye the Sailor was, you really are. You I am what I am. Here's the message, here it is, and and it's executable. Are you is the is the philosophy if we continue the conversation with Bernie Schmielpeck, we'll do business, and then when they're ready for their next vehicle, we're at least in the consideration phase.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Well, that which is not immediate right of a new generating, is branding. And we're and we're showing that the dealership cares about him. It's communicating him on a regular basis with a with the honest, good communication. Not come in today and receive. It doesn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

And there's a time and place for get a grill. Absolutely. But but but I shouldn't say but because psychologically every but in the middle of a sentence means crap, crap, crap. There's a time and place for an event and give a grill.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Is it every time?

SPEAKER_01 35:15

No. Why? No, because we can talk more intelligently to them. It's when, it's when you're you're let's say you've done your your um uh campaigns you can do for the quarter, right? And you did it in one month. You have 10 salespeople and 10,000 names, and so you're gonna mail 10,000. Now you don't need you got two months that you're not doing anything. Good, saturate. So do other things if you want.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

So you're a communication-based company. Does the you know you're you're approved by OEMs, you have turnkey relationships and and IMR stuff and all these other great acronyms, right? Right? And you get vetted and all this other stuff. Do you change the quality and level of conversation with a less expensive new vehicle versus say uh a Bentley or Rolls-Royce consumer? Does it change, or do you believe that everybody's entitled to have a conversation?

SPEAKER_01 36:04

You know, that's agree. Because we picked up Rolls-Royce North America, and the the conversation stayed the same. And it was hugely successful.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Head explosion time.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

What did you learn from that? I learned that the actually the I reversed it and said, you know, why wouldn't we treat a Hyundai owner the same way we would a Rolls-Royce owner? Why wouldn't we do that? And we do.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Well, we know that that financially the a vehicle is uh worst case, the second largest transaction, or third, depending on how high line a person it is. In a lot of cases, it's the most expensive thing that a an American w uh resident right would ever buy. So is it your philosophy that regardless of price point, if we if we if if we use the true definition of truth in advertising, we speak to them the way we would want to be spoken to, that the respondent rate will be better, the conversion rate to sales will be better and better and fixed and op and ver uh variable ops, and and and to take the old Carl Sewell philosophy from many, many years ago from that book, Customer for Life, you at least have a chance to not get outsold for five dollars a month.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Exactly. Exactly, because it's it's a relationship. All right. Yeah, what's the difference between a vendor and a relationship?

SPEAKER_02 37:21

I'm looking at a document here. Uh Your Honor, permission to leave the witness? Permission granted. Thank you, Josh. Can I quote the name of the retailer? I don't I don't want to step on toes. He's this guy too. Okay. So Honda World. What state? Kentucky. Kentucky.

unknown 37:39

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

The bourbon trail. That's a discussion for another day. And I'm not a heavy drinker, but what an event that was for my wife's 60th birthday. So Honda World, can I just read this? And then in pieces, and then you kind of absolutely here's the doc. I'd like to admit this into evidence. Exhibit Hamlin uh A and reason for why we need to slow down and listen. Thank you, Your Honor. I appreciate the thumbs up. I I'm just gonna read off of this. Cool? Honda World overall summary 62 campaigns over what period of time?

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Ten years.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Ten years? That sounds like a really long time. So but 62 campaigns over 10 years is not in a campaign every month. So we're back to this quarterly relationship. Okay. So so you admit it then. Not guilty. Okay, so 62 campaigns. Lost service reactivated.$6,470,995 times 0.65 equals$4,206,146 gross profit. What does that mean? Because that sounds like a some math.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Profit and gross profit.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Deliberately. Is this really relevant considering that the car business isn't exactly flying right now? How much more important is what I just read that you clarified? If you were a dealer, would would that fixed ops calculation resonate for you? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Can I continue? Absolutely. Okay. By the way, uh Josh, I hate to tell you, we're gonna go a little over with this pod and and uh tough nooggies uh I said nogies, by the way, because I'm allowed to say that in grammar school. Um total mailed in 62 campaigns is the total spend. That's that's the the total that was spent in 62 campaigns over roughly a decade.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

And I'm guessing on the decade.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Yeah, close enough for darts. Okay. Total spend 1,185,839. This is not a 67 cents a piece mailer. No. Okay. 1 million, just shy of 1.2 million. I'm around a car guy, a round up. 1.2 million. Okay. Service absorption, 355%.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

What does that mean? That fiance told you about on the bottom of the letter? Yep. Absorbs 355% of the entire cost of the city. From a little every camping campaign that he's ever done. Now, the interesting part is I didn't know this. He called me and he told me. And then he called me a week later, okay, and because he he he did this. I didn't. He said, You're not listening to me. And I said, Oh no, I heard you. You had a campaign where the service actually paid for it. He goes, No, John, over all 62 campaigns, because he has access to this on his system of intelligence.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

You would go over this one-on-one with people after this pod that want to talk to you more, which by the way, We don't get a VIG for. This is net direct from Hamlin and Associates. So you can defend this 355 successfully. Dealer he he did it. I didn't. Cool, cool. Let's go on to the next thing. Vehicles matched. What does that mean before I read the numbers?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

The reason I say match is I think dealers are sick and tired of saying we sold 42 cars. I didn't sell a car, I didn't take a TO. I didn't bump a trade. I didn't do anything, any of the heavy lifting. I started a conversation. I get I'll also say this if you dealer trade for a car on Wednesday, right? And I drop mail on Friday, and as a previous customer, it doesn't show up as what? Isn't purchase. So therefore, I mail them. They take delivery on Tuesday, right? It shows I put them on the RLI. So you're did my mail have anything to do with that? No. And I think dealers are sick and tired of that.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Ah, they they are. I would be if I still had my store. All right, so vehicles matched 4,331. I like to put the emphasis because that's a big number. So 4,331 vehicles matched times$2,000 average profit per vehicle equals$8,662. So just shy of$8.7 million in total profit at the gross line level. Is that correct? Right. Or is that well, no,$2,000 a copy is net, not gross. It's net before expenses and stuff, but it's true against invoice on a per deal basis. Right. So just shy of$8.7 million. Okay. Overall net profit. Huh. So we're we're adding fixed and variable together on these 62 campaigns. 11,682,000 and a few hundred bucks. Let's call it 11.7 million average net profit per event. Average net profit, net. So selling price, including what's generated in the box from invoice, right? Per event. I gotta read this. 11,682,310 dollars. I'm sorry, no. Average net profit per event. That's why I don't have my glasses on. 188,424. So let's round down.$188,000 of net profit. Net profit, right? Per event. Overall ROI, 985%. So just just for those of us who I mean, I I I I'm a graduate of the U and I'm okay with math. What does that 985 mean to me, Mr. Mr. Vender? I'm Mr. Dealer.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

It's gonna you if you look at that report, you're gonna see we're very conservative because let's start out where we began. The whole event was paid for before you ever sold a car.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

So your focus is against the is instead of dropping prey mail and database and and go to Experian and only focus on new vehicles over the curb, you're looking at the entire pizza, not just the toppings or a couple of slices. Am I am I on your page? Okay. Now, uh Your Honor, I'd like to I would like to admit uh I would like to admit exhibit Hamlin B2 into evidence, please, uh Your Honor. Admitted. Thank you. So so um by the way, I I think we need to take this art and put it on the pod because because this is altitude that is is wow time. Can I just read it? Adage, automotive news. It's not Joe's magazine, right? Which uh I was in the magazine business that did it level. Dealers know that hasn't heard of automotive news like uh from when I was a little guy. Uh my dad was a dealer for 53 years. He used to make Me read it and I didn't even know what I was reading until I looked at it.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

They interviewed my clients.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Automotive, correct. Um and the participate, the presenting sponsor. I love this. The presenting sponsor of this award is Experian. So they're a database company. Big time. Okay. Global Marketing Awards. Right? Same as you. Which probably means that you qualified for this. Global Marketing Awards, Best Use of Data Winner 2025. Best Use of Data 2025, Hamlin Associates, an automotive technology company. You don't bill yourself as a mail house. No, we're not. Okay. So you got the best use of data winner 2025. I love that. 7,519 targeted letters, 26% response rate on that's a low number, 75, right? Because most mailhouses are like, you need to send 15,000 pieces of mail, but 7,519 targeted letters, 26% response rate,$811,000 plus service revenue. Wait a minute. So the$812K is based on vehicle sales not including service revenue?

SPEAKER_01 45:10

No. No, I'm wrong. No. See what what the they left out there. Go ahead. Come on. Um is the 811 was what we targeted them for. They spent an more, even more on service. Okay. Who spent more? The customer. Customer. Customer. Okay. Okay, so let me let me give this more context. Because this is an aha moment for me. The 7,519 people were sent out in increments of like 1,400 pieces throughout the year. Okay. Because it's recall. And that's for dealers. I can tell any dealer in the country, because they've gotten enough stats now to prove it. If your service department's slow, all right, I can put people in your service department. We can overrun your 900 pieces of mail in one drop, and they're getting this huge response rate. We take in WIP into consideration, right? We've taken remedy. We take in, have they actually already had this done, which is where a lot of people drop the ball. Again, they want bigger numbers. How do you make money on 1400 pieces of mail?

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Well, in a traditional sense, you don't.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

Right. You don't. Um however. What are we doing with a relationship here?

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Well, you're using data as your leverage point to be able to make those numbers work, are you not?

SPEAKER_01 46:20

This is more about it's impossible for me to make money on 900 pieces of mail. So why not do it and you know, whatever it is, and be that guy?

SPEAKER_02 46:32

As opposed to being one and done and going to the next one and churning business.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Right, or trying to jack up the numbers.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

So I have three more questions because Josh, do we have any time? We're out of time, but I'm gonna keep going. Wrap it up. Not gonna happen. I need more time. Your honor? Hey, I need more time. Woo, woo! Here goes the scale. All right. So, so I have a it's not a trick question. You know that I sold my store years ago. 22 years we were an ad agency. A lot of ad agencies would listen to this and go, and this dude's gonna put me out of business. Is there a relationship, a hand-in-glove relationship with an ad agency with this product? And if so, how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Great question. Thank you. I'm full of those. I'm gonna I have a company called Agency Alliance, right? Do you know why I have Agency Alliance? Why is that? Because I don't want when they screw with the campaign, they change it, they do things that are not right, right? All right, it's no longer it's them doing it, not us.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Does traditional media compliment your your data-based program?

SPEAKER_01 47:35

How do you mean that question?

SPEAKER_02 47:36

From a communication perspective, to keep the consumer engaged, to not just rely on one spoke of the wheel to keep the wheel spinning true. Do you believe that multiple spokes makes a dealership run?

SPEAKER_01 47:48

When we work, especially when we work with an agency. Right. The data is in that system of intelligence, which can you can use in Facebook, you can use in streaming, which is huge. Right. So you're very, very accurate because it's sanitized bad data.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

I'll come back. Yeah, and that's a different we're gonna talk about an episode and and just uh pay it and stick around. Everybody's pushing CTI now and trying to eliminate everybody, even the even, you know, woo-hoo, the big one ZTI. So you see a relationship, multiple spokes in the wheel helping to drive fixed and variable ops, and you're one of those spokes, not the only spokes. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 48:23

That's one of the thousand good decisions that JM Lexus, Bob Johnson, Chevrolet make. Um I'm not the, but I'm certainly one of their best practices.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

You're gonna come back. I just won't put the fuel in the plane because that's uh it's above my pay grade. Can I ask you one last question? Sure. You you sure? Uh-huh. Because this is a good one. You ready? Uh-huh. As they say down south. When it comes to direct mail, how can dealers judge if their provider is not doing enough? Is not doing enough. How do they judge that?

SPEAKER_01 48:56

The transparency of showing them. If I say I'm cleaning your data, right? And I'm and I'm removing up to 80% and saying it's garbage, showing them exactly where it's garbage. And showing them exactly before you were in their business or after? We show them for another dealer, a demo demo site, and then when we engage them, we start to show we show them.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

You have clients that are willing to share what they're doing with you to prove that it works, if as long as they're not facing competitors, you'll talk about that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

Oh, I show it to them. I show them what they can expect from the system of intelligence. And that they see that. And if they're not transparent, and I mean, if I'm walking around saying I sold 42 cars, right? If I can't substantiate and be transparent and prove to you everything that's being claimed, right, probably not the guy to deal with. If I'm not innovative, if I don't have a what a system that I can prove works to go after by conquest, right? And we do.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Can you have the sign you just showed me? Josh, you're gonna love this. But can I have that sign to wrap it up? Hey villain, right? So he's been Josh is like, loud, loud! Here's the sign, wrap it up, wrap it up. Here's come here it comes, because we're out of time and we've been out of time for you're please, please come back and see us again. Absolutely. I want to tear this down even more. I've known John for over 20 years. Our ad agency, PMD, maybe you've heard of us, has been partnering with John with clients for as long. And if it wasn't for John, we wouldn't have a full solution, multiple spokes all working together. First of all, John, thank you for for appearing and coming all the way up here just to be on this pod.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Come on, man. That's fun. It's our honor. It really is. Um it's time to be judgy in the car business. It's time to force force the issue. Not mean-spirited. It's time that to really look at because in right in good times, everybody can make money by accident. It's being a wartime conciliary where we have to look at because my dad, who was a dealer for 53 years, you almost make me want to buy another store. You really do, because the things that we learn when the the things aren't exactly wow, when we do them when things are yeah, we'll be even better off. I it's this type of process, it's a philosophy, it's a process. This gentleman gets it. I don't like, as a general rule, to do endorsements and you didn't pay to be here, right? You didn't pay to be here. You think I'm out of my mind because you told me that before we did this, right? We're not we don't monetize this because I don't want to be influenced by a check. I want to be influenced by success.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

And that's why an agency that I love dealing with. Right. Because you do, you operate at a level that a lot don't. Let's just say that.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Well, because because as as we're not media people trying to sell to car people, we're car people that happen to be in the media business. Hello. So let me leave you with this. You want to hear an alternative opinion, an alternative, be given an alternative choice, something to think about. We'll make sure on our website, carguysimple.com, you'll probably saw some a message on how to contact John. Give him a shout, man. He'll take your call. He will be back to do more stuff. In the short term, we're only as good as what we sold yesterday and today, right? Our window we have in the car business. We in a calendar year, we have 12 fiscal periods. And the day-to-day progress in sales, service, and parts is what keeps that company in business. Thank you for being on board. Thank you for being a part of what you do. Thank you for being transparent. And most of all, thank you and welcome to the CGS family. We really appreciate you. All right. Very cool. Thank you for listening. Sorry we kept you on for so long. It was worth it. Slow your brain down and think about what you just heard and give the guy a call. If I could have slowed this down and given you more, I would. But sometimes thought starters are what what Chiny said 5,000 years ago, the journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Here's your single step. Thank you for your time. We'll talk soon. Thank you again. CGS out.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, and at CarGuysImple.com. To learn more and see behind the scenes action. If you have a topic you want us to discuss, we'd love to hear from you. Feel free to send Joe an email at Joe at CarGuysIple.com. This is the Car Guy Simple Podcast. See you next time.