From Salvation Army to the Sacraments: Karen Estep’s Catholic Conversion Story

In this week's episode,  I’m joined by fellow podcaster, Catholic writer, teacher, and convert, Karen Estep, host of Stand Kneel Now What?

Karen shares her powerful journey from being raised in the Salvation Army and Methodist traditions to entering the Catholic Church at the Easter Vigil in 2022. We talk about the grief that can come with leaving a church community, the beauty of the Mass, confession, the Eucharist, the saints, and what it really means to persevere when God is calling you deeper.

Karen opens up about the struggles, objections, and moments of grace that shaped her conversion—including her love for St. Mary Magdalene, her reflections on confession, and why becoming Catholic isn't for the faint of heart.

This episode is full of honesty, encouragement, and hope for anyone discerning the Catholic faith or walking through their own conversion journey.

Connect with Karen:

Podcast: Stand Kneel Now What?

Instagram: @stand_kneel_now_what

Facebook: Stand Kneel Now What?

Writing: Catholic Mom + Living Faith Devotional For Kids

Books Mentioned: Pray With Us by Belinda Terro Mooney

Karen's Podcast Episode featuring Belinda Terro Mooney

Connect with Carrie:

Follow Carrie on Instagram @livingwholeandholy

Schedule a Free 1:1 Catholic Coaching Clarity Call with Carrie

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Welcome to the Living Whole and Holy podcast, where the Catholic faith and intentional living come together. I'm your host, Carrie Jane, a recent Catholic convert and Catholic coach, here to guide you toward a life that's rooted in Christ, centered in his love, and aligned with God's call. Whether you're a convert, revert, cradle Catholic, or simply exploring the faith, you're in the right place. Join me each week to hear inspiring conversations, including conversion and reversion stories, timeless wisdom from the church, and practical Catholic coaching tools that help you deepen your faith and intimacy with Christ, cultivate Christ-centered habits, and be transformed through the renewing of your mind. If you're ready to discover and align to the beauty and richness of a fully integrated Catholic life, you've found your home. I'm so excited you're here. Let's get started. She's a fellow podcaster and fellow convert to the faith. So I'm very excited to have her on. So, Karen, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Well, hello. My name, like Carrie said, is Karen Estep. I am first and foremost a daughter of God. I like to put that out there. That's my first identity. I am a wife. I am a mother of two chuckleheads, is what we call our children. I uh I also have a podcast. I'm the host of Stand Neil Now What? I'm a Catholic writer as well. I write for catholicmom.com and living faith kids. I am also a Catholic high school teacher. And I am a convert to the Catholic faith. This is going, we're in my like fourth year of being a Catholic. So I'm no longer a baby Catholic. I like to tell people I'm a tweener.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Like a tween.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Yes, I often would say I'm a baby Catholic. I don't say I'm a baby Catholic anymore, but you're a little bit further along than I am. So if you would please take us to the beginning of your story because I know you started out as a Protestant and would just love to know how that journey started for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yeah. So I was baptized in a Lutheran church in Kentucky. Um, my grandparents were Lutheran. My dad was raised Lutheran. However, something happened and he kind of stopped going to church. And but he knew that it was really important to have me baptized. So I was baptized in a church in Kentucky that I tell people I've never actually set foot in because I was a baby and they carried me. Uh and I don't even know if the church still exists. I probably should look it up. Um, so anyway, so I was baptized Lutheran. And like I said, my dad didn't really go to church. We would go to the Lutheran church that he grew up in when my grandparents would come to town because they had moved from where we live to Kentucky. So when they would come to town, we would go to church. I would also go to Catholic Mass every once in a while because my cousins are Catholic. On his sister converted to Catholicism. And so when we'd visit my cousins for Easter or for first communions or whatever, we would go to Catholic Mass. So when I did my official conversion, I don't think anybody was really surprised. And I didn't have the same pushback from my family that some converts get because, you know, my dad saw the beauty in it. And, you know, people didn't say really negative things about Catholics around me when I was growing up. I think partly because they knew that, you know, I had family that were Catholics. So this whole idea of Catholic bashing wasn't a thing until after I became Catholic. So anyway, I I'm making a very long story long. Um anyway, so about second grade, I met my best friend. She and I are still best friends to this day. She had moved with her family to the town where I grew up, and she was wearing this truly hideous outfit. Um, and she had moved like within two weeks of school being close to being done. So she moved in May. She came to school, she was wearing this awful outfit, and it was it really was ugly. And I will die on that hill. It was the 90s though, right? Yeah, it was the 90s. Yeah, and it just, oh my gosh. And I I tell people the Holy Spirit told me to make fun of her, which is probably not true. But um, so I did. I went up and told her that her outfit was ugly. And um, she promptly invited me to her church because her outfit had to deal with her church. She said, This is part of Sunbeams, which is, you know, a church group that I'm a part of, and the church that I go to, my parents are the pastors at, and we'd love to have you come to vacation Bible school. Like that literally left her mouth after I told her her outfit was ugly. And by the way, her outfit was, I should explain. She wore uh white frilly socks, you know, like the like the lace frilly socks that were really popular in the 90s, okay? And then it had a brown pleated skirt and not even like a pretty brown, just brown, and then a pale yellow polo. That's what she was wearing. It looked like poop and pee.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

And it was awful.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

So I asked her what church after she like did this feel about, you know, come to my church, we're doing vacation Bible school. I asked her what church she attended, and she told me the Salvation Army. And so I went home, you know, as second graders do. I went home and told my parents that I had been invited to vacation Bible school and I was going and I made this new friend. And I I probably told them about her hideous outfit as well. And my dad looked it up because I grew up in a very Mormon area of I didn't grow up in Utah. I grew up in Independence, Missouri. And so we have a lot of Mormon churches in the area, a lot of it's not called the RLDS church anymore. It's called the Community of Christ, which is just a rebranding that they did. Um, and my dad knew enough that he didn't want me to attend that church because it goes against a lot of they don't believe in the Nicene Creed and all of this other stuff. So my dad looked up the Salvation Army, said, sure, looks great. So I went to vacation Bible school, and I still remember my leader. So I was put in the same group as my best friend, her name is Joy, and our leader's name was Ed Bird, and his wife's name was Delphi. And I just remember, and they were old, right? Like they were so much older than even my parents. And I'm sure when you are a nine-year-old or 10-year-old, everybody's old. But they just they just seemed very ancient to me at the time. But when Ed would talk about the Lord, and he would talk about this uh this person he had in his heart and and his relationship with Jesus, and I would see the way he treated his wife, it was one of the most beautiful things I had ever seen. Even though I had, you know, my parents had a really good relationship, but it was just this, it was just amazing. And I knew that I wanted what Ed and Delphi had. I knew that I wanted Jesus in my heart because he just radiated so much joy in his life. So at vacation Bible school, even though I'd already been baptized, I had decided to like dedicate my life to the Lord and I accepted Jesus for myself. And it was beautiful. And so from the time I was in second grade up until I got married, I was a member of the Salvation Army, the Salvationist. And for those listeners that may not know what the Salvation Army is, if you think of Catholicism as the tree and the Methodist Church as a branch, then the Salvation Army is a limb that is off of the Methodist branch. The founder is his name is William Booth, and he was a Methodist minister in London, England. And he started the Salvation Army based off of the fact that he didn't think that the Methodist Church was doing enough for the impoverished and people that were addicted to alcohol and drugs. And so that is really where the Salvation Army got started.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

And that's related to when you donate clothes or items.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

That's the thing. Yeah. So the Salvation Army, the bell ringers, all of that. Uh-huh. Um, so the Salvation Army thrift stores that you typically see, they are um part of the adult rehabilitation centers that help men. They may help women in crisis now, but the one where I live specifically helps men get over addiction and that kind of a thing. So when you donate to them, a lot of people are like, oh, they're a for-profit organization. It is not. Uh in fact, I think the Salvation Army pastors, like when you look at the churches that give the most money, it's like the Catholic Church and then the Salvation Army is very, very close. Got it. Yeah. So then after I uh, you know, went to college, I kind of fell away from my faith a little bit. I went to a very small D2 school where I'm from, and they not a lot of Salvation Army churches in this tiny little town. So I kind of stepped away from my faith. I talked the talk, but I most certainly did not walk the walk. And I just kind of stepped away. And then I met my husband a few years after college, and the Salvation Army churches that are around us weren't really geared towards newlyweds or uh families that were just beginning. And I asked him if he wanted to think about a Methodist church, since you know the Salvation Army is closely related to the Methodist church. And he said, sure. For those listeners that may wonder about my husband as well, he was baptized in a Methodist church and then they were kind of in and out of Baptist churches when he was little. He likes to tell people that he went for Christmas and Easter and really nothing else. So the faith wasn't foreign to my husband, but he didn't grow up like me, where I was very devout as a salvationist. Uh yeah, I tried to live my life so much for the Lord until I got to college and then, you know, fell away. So anyway, so we joined a Methodist church. Um, we loved it. I wish more Catholic churches would do kind of what our Methodist church was doing, where we met for an hour uh at night. It was Sunday night service, and then after church was done, we would go down and have a full meal as a church. So I think, you know, there's something about having an actual meal with people that you worship with, as opposed to like donuts and coffee. I think there are some Newman centers that are starting that where they have a mass and then they have dinner afterwards. I wish more parishes, though, would take that on. I know it would be a hard task, but I think it would be beautiful. So we joined that church and then they kind of reworked it and it became a mega church, and there were some other issues that we were having. So we decided to stop going to church. Our children were baptized in the Methodist church, and then we decided it wasn't really for us anymore, and we stopped going. Well, right when we had let ourselves grieve the church, which I think is very important, especially if you've left one thing, you need time to grieve, you need time to process the reasons why you have left that church, and maybe the not biblical things that you were seeing, or I just think there needs to be more spoken about the grief that comes from leaving a community. And so we grieved. We allow our time, uh, we allowed us ourselves time to process that. And then when we got ready to church shop, COVID hit. And so there weren't any churches that were available for us to go and check out in person. We tried a couple online, but church online isn't the same. I agree 100%. Yeah. So, and in this process, we while we were still at the Methodist Church, we had started sending our eldest to the Catholic Church school because I am an English as a second language teacher, which it's not called that anymore. Someone higher up has changed the name of that. And I wanted my kids to learn a foreign language and I wanted them to learn Spanish. And even though I speak Spanish, my children hate learning Spanish for me. I don't know why. They just refuse. So when we were checking out preschools, the only preschool in the area that had a full-time Spanish teacher that also taught preschool was the local Catholic church school. So we sent our kids there. And one day it was finally when, you know, churches started opening. I just felt this really strong call to be back in a Christian community. I, you know, I loved growing up in a Christian community. I loved my youth group. I loved spending time with the Lord every Sunday. I loved getting into scripture. I loved learning Bible stories when I was little. And so I knew that not being in a church was going to affect our children. And I remember walking downstairs and I looked at my husband and I said, I need church community. I have to have this back as part of my life. I want it for our children. I don't want them to grow up with us going to church like every once in a while. Like I want them to know that this is important. And I said, Well, what do you think about going to the Catholic church? And he looks up, and you know, this was in the morning, so he's got a cup of coffee in his hands, and he goes, I don't care where we go, as long as they drink coffee and eat bacon, I'm good. Because you were around Mormons, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

And Mormons don't eat bacon. Don't drink coffee.

unknown 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Well, they I think Mormons eat bacon, but they do not drink coffee. And so and so that is where our journey into the Catholic faith began. We a couple of weeks later, we went to our first mass. It was just us. Um, my mom was watching our chuckleheads. And, you know, unbeknownst to each other, we had both prayed uh in the parking lot that if this is where God wanted us, he needs to make it abundantly clear. And if I could have joined the church the next Sunday, I would have. My husband is a little more practical, and he was like, no, no, no, we need to figure out what the steps are. And so that was in August of 2021, and um we joined OCIA in October of 2021, and we came in at the Easter Vigil in 2022.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Amazing. Well, I love that we have similar backgrounds because I was also baptized Lutheran, but unlike you, it was not a big part of my childhood. Um, because my mom was the one who was Lutheran and my dad was atheist, still atheist. But I love how that conversation with your friend led to you going to that church and being involved with the Salvation Army church, and then you having that deeper call once you wanted to, you know, after COVID and you wanted to send your kids to a uh to the school and it happened to be Catholic. So God was working, God was planting those seeds. Um and I'm just wondering like what was what was it like when you actually first, you know, you you were um brought into the church on was it Easter Vigil?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Yeah. Um I will tell you, my OCA journey was not linear. Um I know some people, when they get in, they know for sure that like this is where you're supposed to be. And I know a lot of people are like me that had lots of doubts. Um, I had to really get rid of my pride because I didn't want people to not know, like to know that I was a convert. I wanted people to assume I was a cradle Catholic. I don't know why. I don't know why that went through my head. But so I really prided myself in from that August to uh until Advent time frame, like knowing the liturgy, I was starting to memorize prayers, I'd keep my book hidden because I have I'm very tall, I'm 5'10. I'm able to put like my book beneath, you know, the the edge of the pews in front of me so that people didn't realize that I was reading from um my book, which seems so stupid, but I really I just wanted people to not think or to think that I didn't know what I was doing. So when the first weekend of Advent hit that in 2021, no one told me that the liturgy changed. No one told me what would happen. And I had a panic attack in the middle of the first song. And I was just like, what is happening? What is going on? And I remember processing with myself, okay, I can either uh freeze, which means I'm just gonna stay standing the entire mass, which I almost did. I can flee, which um would have put my husband in a bad position because he would have had our two children who were small at the time, all by himself, or I can fight. And I was like, my priest is older. Like, I'm not who I'm not gonna go up and deck him because no one told me the liturgy change. And I was like, by the time, because we used to sit way in the back. We are now upfronters for life, but we used to sit way in the back when we first started. And I was like, by the time I even get up to the altar, someone's gonna stop me from like approaching my poor priest. So it was really my sponsor taking me aside after that. And we talked about Eucharistic miracles and we talked about, you know, all of the things. So when I came into the church Easter vigil, I just felt really prepared and not at all. Like when I remember leaving, which is part of the reason for my podcast, but I remember leaving the Easter Easter vigil, going, okay, I've spent all this time in OCIA, I've spent all this time preparing, I've, you know, prayed, I've examined my heart, I've told my family, I've, you know, try to be a keyboard warrior and tell people they're wrong about the Catholic Church. And now I'm confirmed. I can take my first communion. So now what? What do I do? You know what I mean? And so it's become a journey, even from that, to realize that once you are confirmed, that's not the end. That is just the beginning of your journey. And now as a high school teacher where I have students that are going through the confirmation process, I'm trying to instill in them that even though you're confirmed, and yeah, sure, that's the last sacrament you're gonna get until you get married or until you, you know, you discern priesthood or religious vocations, that doesn't mean it's the end. It's only the beginning. That's that's where the Holy Spirit comes and you figure out what your purpose as a Christian is now.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Absolutely. I love I love your podcast. And I think uh it it's so important. I'm I'm thinking back to what you said about the grieving process because I I could really relate to that myself. And anyone listening who, you know, was Protestant and they're becoming Catholic, or maybe they were in a different religion altogether. They have family to tell, they have friends to tell, and some people are very uh kind, and some people are not so kind. And there it is an internal process. And I know for me, my husband and I we went to a non-denominational Protestant church after we had we had a very powerful encounter with Jesus that I've spoken about in other episodes, but we we were involved in a beautiful community. We made so many friends, and like you were talking about, there was that sense of community, and and it that was it was really challenging when we actually made that decision that we wanted to go forward and pursue becoming Catholic because we did feel like this grieving process of okay, we have these people, not that we need to say goodbye to, but we knew that we wouldn't necessarily maintain friendships with everyone. But talk a little bit more about what that grieving process was like, because I think that is something that people don't necessarily talk about with the whole conversion process because it can be very exciting. There's a lot of emotions. But like you said, once the dust settles, you're like, okay, now what? And I love that the Lord, you know, had you step out into this way with your podcast because we are left feeling very disoriented sometimes afterwards. So talk a little bit more about that grieving process. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

So when we left the Methodist church that we were a part of, I think we knew that the writing was on the wall. After they had taken away the service that we were a part of. So we were part of a service called the Next Service, and Next stands for something. I don't remember what. But it was a very small and intimate service where it was like 100, 150 people. And um we actually had a pastor come in that took over that service, and he was phenomenal. And I've actually told people he would have made a phenomenal priest. And I kind of, I'm not gonna say his name, but there are days that I pray into him converting to Catholicism. He's married, so I know that they would kind of let him in as a married man. But um, he was just so phenomenal and wonderful. And they took that service away. And then we had our daughter, and we noticed some things shifting within the community where we were taking care of some families, but we weren't taking care of other families. And that really put a bitter taste in my mouth for why. And it became, it became very clicky in in ways that like I'm just I'm not like, and especially at the Salvation Army, where it is very, you know, we had some poorer families, and we had families that were like mine that were, you know, not well off, but okay and could make it. And then there were some families that would come to the Salvation Army that were, you know, more well off, and it was, but it was never talked about and it was never said. And it was like everybody just helped whoever needed it. And then when this the Methodist church that we were a part of became clicky and exclusive, and only certain people were getting invited to Bible studies, and and I was like, well, why? And you know, my husband's trying to be the fixer that you know men tend to be, and he was like, Well, maybe it's because we have young children and these these families don't have young children yet, you know, they're in a different place, or maybe it's because, you know, XYZ, just add an excuse in there. But we just started becoming like very unspiritually fed. And we found ourselves only going, this is kind of funny too that I forgot. We would only go to that church on the first Sunday of the month because we knew that's when they would serve communion. And in the Salvation Army, they don't do communion of any kind. It's not, uh, there's no bread, there's no grape juice, there's no wine, there's like it is, it's not done. And so um, going to this Methodist church where I learned about communion for the first time, I I knew it was something that I wanted, but I only wanted it on the days they served it. I didn't want to be talked to the other three Sundays. So the other funny thing is they would often serve whatever they had at the Methodist church. So sometimes we got King's Hawaiian bread. Delicious, but not the body and blood of Christ. So, anyway, so we just became really disillusioned. And so our grief became more of we had put a lot of time and effort into creating a community. That community was taken away that we loved so, so very much. And you almost have to, and there are times that this has happened in the Catholic Church, even in you know, parts of the Catholic Church that I've been privy to, where you have to really go, what does my faith rely on? Is it reliant upon uh the pastor or the priest or the community, or is my faith going to be shattered because I know too much now? I know too much about the ends and workings of the church, and or is your faith reliant on God knowing that God has put men and women in these places of authority and knowing that those men and women are going to screw up, right? And so part of our grieving process had to be a part of like we had to move on from the community. We had to grieve the fact that our community became very clicky, very uh just doing things that we didn't think were right as Christians. And we had to go, okay, what is our faith in? Is our faith in God or is our faith in this church that has men run it that are imperfect? And so, and that is really what gets me through sometimes, you know, seeing some things going on in different parishes, that's what gets me through. I know that the church is perfect, but the priests in charge of the church sometimes are not.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yes, yes. It is nice to have that authority though, versus in the Protestant church. Yeah. So I and I totally agree with you that I think even more so for me, since becoming Catholic, like I so much more feel like I'm there for God and not to be entertained or I mean, I love me a good homily. But that's not really the main purpose of going to mass. And I think for for my husband and I, because we converted uh together, just the reverence and the holiness and the I don't want to say seriousness, but yeah, maybe a little bit of seriousness of just why you're there and that we get to receive the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ is just that's beautiful. And even though it's been, it'll be for us, it'll be two years in April, so a little bit behind you. I still am in am in awe that even though those initial feelings of when you actually become Catholic, like you said, and you receive the Eucharist for the first time, and they're like, well, now what? Those feelings are are there, those feelings of excitement. But I still feel like every day there's something new. It does not get old. Yes, there's moments of desolation, there's moments of consolation, but I just feel like everything is so rooted in that depth and that richness and that beauty that despite whatever's going on around you in your life, or even things happening within the church that we may not agree with, like you said, the church itself is perfect.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

And that's just something palpable that you can feel when you go into a parish and we're in front of the blessed sacrament. So yeah, it's just I don't know. I don't know if you felt that way or not as the you know, as you're as the years have gone on, but uh well it's for sure changed my definition of what worship is versus what praise is, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:55

And that's something that you know I think a lot of Protestants confuse. And when you realize that worship requires the sacrifice, and it's the sacrifice of the mass, and you realize what we do, and you start learning more about okay, how what is the priest doing, and then how do I participate in that sacrifice and and what does that mean? And and you you'll constantly be learning. I love that about the Catholic Church is that like once you think you know something, and then you like go more in depth. Um I think that's just it's such a beautiful testament to how deep and rich the Catholic Church actually is. And I'm not even talking about just history, I'm talking about the beauty of learning the Jewish roots of the Mass and what that means. And um I was I had an author on my podcast who grew up in the Hebrew roots movement, and I had learned the Old Testament Bible stories, but really in I think in Protestantism, a lot of focus is spent on the New Testament and like what the New Testament has. And he was telling me that for the Hebrew roots movement, it's a lot of focus on the Old Testament and they don't they get into like the Gospels, but after that, it's like not a lot is talked about. And I said it wasn't until I became Catholic that I truly realized that the two go together, that the Old Testament and the New Testament are mirrors in so many beautiful ways. And you know, the gospel is amazing. And I wish more Protestants would realize that where the gospel, like the good stuff in the gospel, has a tie to the Old Testament, where growing up, I wasn't taught what those ties were. I wasn't in even into like the scrutinies that you have to do when you come into the church that the whole story of the woman at the well had been read to me. And I know part of that's on me. I take responsibility. I could have opened up my Bible and read the entire story. I don't think I would have understood the entire story, but just the beauty and the fact that Jesus sought her for a very specific reason and Jesus knew her, and not just like knew her by like saying, Hi, like, you know, get me some water. He knew her. I balled my eyes out, and I still do when it's read at church, like every single time I hear that because I just think I miss so much of that growing up. And the woman at the well is really my prodigal son story. Because I hate the prodigal son because it's a boy and I'm a girl, and I don't think it's fair, but when you read the woman at the well, that's really like a woman's prodigal son story because he also sought out this woman. And but yeah, I don't think as a Protestant, I had the beauty of both testaments together.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Yeah, I I I agree that there does seem to be an emphasis on the New Testament and the Old Testament can be really dry sometimes, but having that whole arc and the the New Testament being fulfilled from the old, like just having that whole arc of the whole thing is really important. When you were in that process of converting, did you have some objections that were hard to reconcile with, or did you have people saying things to you that kind of shook your faith or anything like that before you converted?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah, so I had some objections a little bit about Mary. Um, and I still, even you know, four years later, sometimes I still have a hard time. I I know, like I know in my head that she's perfect. I understand the Catholic theology behind it, but sometimes I have this really hard time saying she was sinless. Because and you will know this, as a Protestant, when you grow up in it, the you are taught, and it's over and over and over and over and over again. The only person on earth to have ever have lived that was sinless is Jesus Christ. And so even sometimes, and I taught theology for a little bit last year at the high school that I'm at, I just it and it it's it's up here in my head. I have so much head knowledge about it, and I agree with it, but to say it out loud, I'm like, is is the people I you know, are they are they gonna be back here going, that's not right, that you're wrong. You know what I mean? Um, so I I I had a little bit of an objection to uh marry at first. Um, this is my marrying year, though. I have decided. So I'm praying a rosary every day, and I'm really trying to lean into Mama Mary and what she means for me as a woman in the church. I think the other thing, and it wasn't until after I became Catholic uh last, not this last December, but the December before the last one. So 2024, my aunt passed away and it was sudden, it wasn't expected. And that was the first time, even though I had been Catholic, that I questioned purgatory. And I really had to go in in word and pray a lot about it because you know, my aunt had been baptized, uh, she had some more liberal beliefs, she wasn't going to church. I don't know if she accepted Jesus Christ. You know what I mean? All these things. And I I kind of spiraled a little bit and said, So where is she? You know, heaven because she's baptized, is she in hell because she had these different beliefs? Is she in purgatory trying to rationalize it out with God? And what finally just gave me peace and calm was God finally, in one of my prayers, goes, You have to let that go. Pray for her, pray for her soul, but you have to trust me and my mercy. And I was like, Okay, because as Catholics, we're told to surrender everything back, which I think is also something that sets us apart from Protestants. And sometimes you have to surrender that and you just have to go, okay, I don't understand it, but I'm gonna trust that it's good and that this is where God wants me to be.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Yeah, that's beautiful that you had that consolation. And I think it's so beautiful that we are encouraged to pray for the souls who've passed because that's not anything that I ever heard about as a Protestant. And I have family members that have passed away, and I I have thought the same thing, but I just, like you said, we surrender it and we we have the opportunity to pray. And so I I love that. How about confession? How is that for you when you first heard of confessing to a priest? Because that was something I had a few people uh have some questions about for me.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Yeah, so confession wasn't hard for me, and this is how I rationalized it because a lot of people will say, Well, you only need, you know, forgiveness from God. And I I don't like it when people do that because I'm like, when you wrong somebody, I and I I do all the time. I have foot and mouth disease, is what I tell people because I oftentimes have to I put my foot in my mouth and say things incorrectly or say something stupid that I need to apologize for. I don't just go to God for forgiveness for that, right? Like I have to go to you if I were to say, I don't like that you're wearing, you know, your hair back today, Carrie, or I go and I gossip about you and then I feel bad about it. We're asked as just decent human beings, and it's not even like a Christian morality thing, it's like being a decent human being, you're asked to go and apologize to that person. And we learn this from a little age. Like if, you know, my son takes a truck from somebody, I say, No, you need to give it back and you say sorry, right? So confession for me was never like a huge hang up because I it's one of those things like if I don't tell my son, well, you took that kid's truck, now go ask God for forgiveness, right? I and I'm getting really heated about it, just thinking about it. But like that's how I was okay with confession because you do have to confess your sins and you do publicly all the time. So just because I'm in, you know, some booth with a guy that has, you know, been given the mark of a priest, I'm gonna have to confess it to whoever. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm gonna have to ask for forgiveness for somebody else anyway. I might as well get it from, you know, in the person of Christ, which is what the priest is acting like. So, no, confession was never a hard concept. It's scary to me because I never want anybody to think bad about me, which I think is, you know, the hang-up for a lot. Even cradle Catholics, I think that's their hang up with confession, is like, oh, the priest knows it's me, and you know, I don't think badly about me. My favorite part of confession, though, especially at my parish, is the priest will often thank me for coming in.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Yeah, I've gotten that too. And I'm like, father, don't thank me for sinning.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Oh, it's funny. Yeah, no, I think I think the sacrament of reconciliation is beautiful. And you have to swallow your pride when you go in there. And I have had the same feelings too of like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm gonna say this to a priest. But I've always heard them say, like, oh, I've heard everything. I I hear so many confessions that I'm never gonna remember anyway. But I think it's a a really good exercise in humility of like, it's not about us. It's about, like you said, we've done something wrong. And yes, we can still pray to God to ask for forgiveness. Like, there, that is not discouraged. But having somebody sit there and gently listen and then offer spiritual direction afterwards. Yeah, is so beautiful. Like I recently went to confession and there was like a person in my life that I was just really struggling with. And then after the priest said, you know, well, how do you pray? Because I said, you know, I try to pray for this person, and he's like, How do you pray? And I didn't have a good answer. And then he's like, Okay, this is what I want you to do. He's like, When next time you think of that person, you know, like before, before mass, just picture them in your hands and you're lifting them up to the father. That's all you need to do. You don't have to try to control them, you don't have to try to want them to be any different than they are. Just hand them over to me. I will take care of it. And I was like, Father, you make it so simple. I and I think that when we live with resentment and we live with anger and unforgiveness, we're actually a lot more unhealthy. They've shown people that are active in their faith and active in this, you know, in confessing their sins, they live longer because they don't carry all these resentments. And uh also what I like too is just this responsibility that we start to take of, okay, well, go and sin no more. That's what we're called to do. So you think twice about, you know, how you're gonna act with someone, or if you did wrong someone, like go and apologize for it. Like that takes a lot of humility and that takes a lot of owning up to like, yeah, I messed up. But you realize your soul's on the line and it just feels so much better to have a clean soul. So I I love I love confession, and that was one that people had a really hard time with when I told them I was becoming Catholic. And then I just I said, I still talk to God, I still ask God for forgiveness. But having having someone, like you said, in persona Christi in in the person of Christ, absolve you and just be gentle. And even the concept of doing a life confession, because before before I was Christian, you know, I was involved in new age practices, and even though I was baptized and had that seed planted, I didn't follow my faith and fell away. So just having that access to that is very freeing for the soul.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Yeah. And it's just one of my favorite confessors, and I wish I knew where he was all the time because I was at a cathedral that wasn't my typical one. We had gone on a pilgrimage with um the salt sisters, and he, I think he's a salt priest. He told me during my confession, because I was like, I'm so upset that I have to keep confessing the same sin over and over again. He's like, Okay, that's fine. But when I, you know, was telling him about it, he said, Okay, I want you just to close your eyes and I want you to picture this person and yourself, and you're underneath the cross and you're underneath the blood of Jesus, and he's washing you and he's also washing that person. And I like that has really I'm not gonna say that, you know, I'm perfect, obviously, or I don't still have the problem with this exact sin, but remembering those words he told me, I that was one of the best. Maybe I didn't give a good confession, but that was one of the best absolutions I received, and the best way to look at when I'm in the heat of the moment of my sin is to remember that God's blood washed both of us. What a beautiful image.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

I'm wondering about saints. How is that for you? And do you have a saint right now that you are walking with?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Okay, so saints. Um, the whole praying to saints was hard for me. Um, and I wish Catholics would change the verbiage on this because we pray with saints. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And this whole like I get pray to or pray tell, like I understand where it comes from before you get any feedback on this. I wish though we would change it to pray with us. And we even say pray with us, right? Or pray for us. Pray for us, yeah. Yeah. So I wish um more Catholics would change the verbiage on that. That's my my one hang up. Saints in general were not hard for me to get behind because, you know, when people pass away in the Protestant church, you know, we often say, Oh, well, you know, your grandma, she's in heaven. You know what I mean? So I firmly believe that Protestants have saints, they're just not canonized. Think about like Billy Graham. You know, he's always talked about in the Protestant faith, or I don't know any others that have passed away. Billy Graham comes to mind because my grandparents really liked him growing up. So there are people that Protestants hold in that regard that we say, well, he's in heaven, and this is what he said well, he was on earth. You know, grandma. Yeah. Um, so saints were hard for me to get behind. I really, when I came into the church though, I didn't think I was going to get a saint. And I was very concerned about it. I just did a podcast episode on this too, where I just thought, I was like, nobody in heaven likes me. Because no one was coming forth. And I really thought I had this horrible um, like, I'm gonna be the only one in my OCAA class that doesn't have a saint. I don't know what to do. Um, I had thought for a long time that it was gonna be Saint Therese, but it just it wasn't fitting. And she would show up, but it wasn't like she would show up in a big way, which is what I kind of wanted. I would see roses, but they would be like teeny tiny little roses or like rose buds or something, you know what I mean? It was never like a full-on bloom, like people say that she brings them. So it was the week before we came in. It was Palm Sunday, which is my favorite Sunday of the entire liturgical year. I love Palm Sunday. Um, and I've loved Palm Sunday even as a Protestant. That was like that, I love the triumph part of Palm Sunday. I love that he comes in and everybody's like, Hosanna, Hosanna, you know. Anyway, so it was Palm Sunday. We were doing an activity with our OCIA group and we were doing the stations of the cross. And I went, my saint, like it just came out of nowhere. My saint is Mary Magdalene. I love Saint Mary Magdalene. I love that the thing that I love about Mary Magdalene, and I'm I'm trying not to cry, is the problem. So if I if I seem like my words are choppy, it's because I'm trying not to cry. I realized in when we were doing the stations of the cross, and then you talk about his resurrection, she didn't realize it was him. She didn't realize it was him until he said her name. And I hope that's how I I recognize Jesus. I hope that's how I live my life is for when I don't recognize who he is. I hope all he has to do is say my name. And I know, and she knew she knew exactly who he was after he spoke her name out loud. And for me, she is the she's a model saint because then she ran and told everybody like he's risen, he's risen, which I think is what we're all commissioned to do is to talk about how truly blessed we are, that Jesus knows all of us by name, not just Mary Magdalene. He knows, he knows me, he knows you. And then we are commissioned to tell everybody we know that he is risen, just like she did. Um and I think it's just she just led a life after that, was which was so beautiful. And so Mary Magdalene is my confirmation saint. Um, but I I keep a saint squad. Me too. And so it went from thinking I wasn't going to get anybody to now I have a bunch of people. The funny thing is, I think I read somewhere, and I may be wrong, so I don't want to be like this is 100% true, but I read somewhere that uh Saint Teresa's confirmation saint was Mary Magdalene as well. Really? Which kind of gave me goose. I don't know if it's true on the internet, you know, Abraham Lincoln said it on the internet, one of those things. I don't know if it's true or not, but that kind of gave me goosebumps when I found that out because I was like, what if all the little roses were leading me to where I was supposed to be? So yeah. So I walk with Mary Magdalene often. I mentioned the woman at the well. She is not recognized as a saint in the Western Rite, but in the Eastern rites, her name is Saint Votina. And I actually keep a tiny saint of her wherever I go to because once again, Jesus sought her, and it wasn't until he started talking to her and she recognized him that then she went and told everybody and her uncle and couldn't keep her mouth shut about Jesus. John Paul II has become another favorite. I call him Papa because he and he sought me out. It wasn't the other way around, which makes us sound a little crazy. But if you're a Catholic, you understand that like saints seek you out for some reason. Oh yeah. I he sought me out right as I was moving to a Catholic school and really became more interested in helping Catholic youth. So that's kind of why I think he became so prevalent in my life. The Sacred Heart of Jesus, I have a devotion to because I think it's just phenomenal. My favorite Mary is Mary Undoer of Knots, because I call her Mary of Hot Messes. And I am a hot mess, so I need her because I am a part of Catholic Mom, Venerable Patrick Payton, who started Holy Cross Family Ministries. I keep with me. So yeah, so like a whole big party is watching over me and helping me. I'm learning more about St. Joan of Arc. She has become more prevalent in my life lately as I've fought battles and questioned like, why am I here and what's the purpose? And you know, she's the mighty warrior that's I was made for a time like this, which also comes from Esther. So, so yeah, those are my say quite the squad. Yeah, I'm sure there are so many more. Um, that is one of the things I absolutely love about our Catholic faith is constantly learning about these people that have come before us that have paved the way. Um, today, so this is written from a friend. I'm gonna show you this book, and I'll I'll say the title out loud for your other listeners. I have this book from a friend, her name's Belinda Taro Mooney. It's called Pray With Us, and it's a saint for every day, and she wrote it. It's beautiful. I'll show I'll link that in the show notes. Was she on your podcast? Yes. So, and she's coming back pretty soon. Oh, well, I'll link that episode as well. Yeah, and it's just it's beautiful because she has saints in here, she has this blessed, she has venerables, but it has like a short biography of their life, and then it has a prayer that she wrote so you can pray with them. Um, and she has this, you'll have to have her on sometime. She has this really cool explanation about how this got started. But today, the saint was Saint Gregory of Narik, who I didn't realize became a doctor of the church in 2015. Pope Francis declared him that. But he has a book that is considered uh a spiritual masterpiece, and it's called Book of Lamentations. And I was like, I want to read this book of lamentations. You know what I mean? And so it's just this book has really helped me. Um, I read it with my high school students every day. This is what, because we pray before every class. So this is what we read so that they can get used to learning saints and maybe, you know, wanting to know more. But um, yeah, I just I love learning about the saints. And so I was like, I'm gonna figure out how to get a book of lamentations.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah, the saints are always waiting to help us in heaven. And I always tell Protestants that just like you ask your friends to pray for you, and your your grandparents, your parents, the saints also want to pray for you. So yeah. And they're such good models of holiness and virtue. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

The thing I also love about the saints is that uh they messed up. Yes, and the saints really messed up. And the one I learned about, I think he was from China, I don't remember his name, but he was a drug addict and he wanted to receive communion, but knew that he was living in moral sin because he was a drug addict and he was taking, I think, opioids. And he wouldn't take communion because of that, but his desire for it kept him going and kept him wanting to go to mass and just persevering through this addiction that he had, and he became a saint. And I just think it's so amazing. A, we have saints from all over the world, which just goes to the universality of our church, and B, that they are are they're models of virtue and holiness, but they're also screw-ups, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Like, absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up because yeah, they were not some of them are converts and they've had all kinds of different past lives than the one that they're living now. So yeah, very important to note to note that they're good examples, but they have things that they've done that you know they've had to work through. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Some of them for me, yeah, is what I for me, yeah, exactly. So yeah, my other uh really quick, my other one that I love is St. Lawrence, and he was almost my confirmation saint because he's hysterical. You'll have to look up Saint Lawrence and the fact that he uh he was burned alive. Um, but he was so funny in that he looked at the Romans that were burning him and he said, Hey, I think I'm done on this site. Can you flip me over? Which just cracks me up. I'm like, I hope, like if that ever happens, I hope A, it doesn't ever happen, but B, if that ever does happen, that I have such a good attitude about right? Sense of humor.

unknown 53:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Well, before we go, I love love to ask all my guests what living whole and holy means to you.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Oh, that one's a good one. So living whole and holy. I think living whole for me, especially right now in the time that I'm at, is knowing that I'm not enough, but God is, and God will fill in the gaps, right? So where I am incomplete, God is fully complete, and where I mess up, God's forgiveness takes over. Which kind of goes into holiness. I I think for me right now, especially for holiness, I am in this period of time where I have all these desires, right? I want to be a speaker, I want to speak at Steubenville, I want to write a book, I want, you know, and I have to remember A, is it those are my desires or those God's desires? And B that everything happens in God's timing. And God wants the good for us in our holiness. And so it will work out the way God wants. And even if I'm not a speaker, even if my podcast only reaches one person, the holiness part of that is that I give it back to God and I give it to the Holy Spirit to reach the person it's supposed to reach. And I continue to live my day every single day, choosing God first. And if I can put God at the center of my day, I always start my day off in the morning, thanking God and asking to be a light that day when I first get up. I want God to use me as a light for someone that day. And if I can do that, even in these little small everyday moments, I may not ever be a Steubenville speaker, I may not ever speak at Sikh, I may not be on the Hallow app, I may not be all of these things. But it is my everyday walk with God that I hope draws people in to also want to walk with God. Because I have said this several times and it kind of grosses people out, but I want Christ to be such a part of my life that I ooze Christ.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

I don't want people to see me, I want people to see Christ.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Well, I wish people could have seen the light shining from the window. Like Mother No Light of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

I I that she's a paid uh actress.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

What's one word of encouragement you could give someone who's on the fence about converting to Catholicism?

SPEAKER_01 56:10

Ooh, that's a really good question. One word of encouragement, just one. Uh persevere, right? Because and my husband's sponsor, who happened to be my sponsor's husband, which, you know, do the math with that, he told me why was contemplating leaving when I had had that crisis of I don't know what's going on in the liturgy, no one told me it was gonna change, I don't know what's happening, I don't know the words now, blah, blah, blah. He looked at me and he said, Becoming Catholic isn't for the weak. And if you're gonna be a wuss about it, don't become Catholic. And as harsh as that may sound, that helped me persevere. And it was after that that he said, Have you heard about Eucharistic miracles? And I said, No, I have no idea what you're talking about. And so then he explained, and I I know we're we're cutting really long on this episode. Um, go look up Eucharistic miracles because that is what you're working for. Receiving the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ is what you're working for. And you're gonna have to persevere and you're gonna have to put your wussiness away, and you're going to have to just go, okay, I don't understand. I may not always like it, but by golly, I know the Holy Spirit has put me here. I know I want to receive communion, so I'm gonna keep going.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

Amen. I love that. Well, Karen, please share your links, your social media. I will include everything in the show notes, including that book. That's amazing. That's on my list already about the saints.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Yeah, so you can find the podcast um on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, probably wherever you can find books. Um, but Apple and Spotify are the big ones that I look at from time to time. And it's just called Stand Neil Now What with a question mark. And then on Facebook, you can find me at Stand Neil Now What with the question mark podcast. And then where I post the most, though, is on Instagram. And this is a mouthful, but I will share the link with you. It is stand underscore neil underscore now underscore what, only because Instagram does not allow commas. Well, I will I will make sure I actually put the link. So yes, they won't have to type in it. Oh, and then um I can send you some links to I write for catholicmom.com, uh, which I I love. They accepted me fully in before the church accepted me fully in. Um, they liked my story of being a Catholic mom, not being raised by a Catholic mom. I had a had a I have a wonderful, wonderful mom. Uh, she was a Christian, but it it's something different when you become a convert. And now all of a sudden you are a Catholic mom. So where do you go? So I write for Catholic mom. It's been a joy. And then I also write for Living Faith Kids, which is like a little missile for uh kids. It's like a subscription that you can buy. Um, and I that's one of my favorite things I do because I get to write gospel reflections for kids, and it's so fun.

SPEAKER_02 59:28

Well, Karen, this has been such an enriching conversation, and it is very clear that the Lord is using you in such beautiful ways, and your enthusiasm and your passion for the Lord is just so infectious. And I highly recommend everyone listen to Karen's podcast. It's just so informative. She's got really neat guests, she also does solo episodes, so go check her out and all of her writings as well. And yeah, this was just really fun, Karen. Thanks so much for being on the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:00

Thank you for having me. It's been a blast. All right, God bless you. God bless you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

Thanks so much for tuning in to the Living Whole and Holy podcast. If you're ready to dive deeper into life coaching from a Catholic perspective, I have a few spots available for one-on-one coaching. This is an amazing opportunity for you to work with someone who will empower you and support you to dream again with God, find more alignment, peace, and confidence in your life, and be the greatest version of who God is calling you to be. I would be so honored to support you on this journey. Send me a DM on Instagram at LivingHole and Holy for a free one on one call to learn more. If this episode blessed you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share with a friend. And remember, instead of doing what makes you happy, do what makes you holy. Until next time, God bless.