Episode 3: Ben Pearce

Episode 3 features a true gent of electronic music - Ben Pearce. 

I first heard of Ben through his good friend Stretford Dogs Club (AKA Andy), who was a big supporter of Ben's music. I used to chat with Andy a lot around 2011, and he put me on to Ben's breakthrough track 'What I Might Do' way before most people even knew it. 

The first time I heard it I knew it was going to be big. And it ended up going HUGE! 

I've spent time with Ben over the years and he's always been the same humble, honest guy. Very down to earth and a devoted music lover through and through. He's a real one.

Enjoy and sign up to the mailing list for early listens and extra treats --> https://form.jotform.com/253575864906370

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi there, welcome to the 2010's Grave Archives podcast. This podcast is an extension of the Instagram page. It gives us the chance to go deeper into the stories and history of the 2010's era. For this episode, my special guest is Ben Pierce. I've known Ben for a while, and we reconnected last year when he came and played in my local town, and then I went to see him play at Crash the following day. Such a pleasure to have Ben on the podcast. He gave me a lot of insight about his rise through what I might do, what he was up to in the years before the 2010s, and he was very vulnerable and open about his battles with anxiety and depression. I really appreciate Ben's openness in this podcast. Such an honest and humble person. Don't forget to join the mailing list, which is in the description of this podcast, and also in the bio of my Instagram page. And if you're not following us on Instagram, it's 2010s RaveArchives. Let's go. Hi everyone, welcome to the 2010s Rave Archives podcast. Today I'm joined by a guy who I'm very fond of, Ben Pierce. How's it going, Ben?

SPEAKER_03 1:11

Yeah, good man. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yeah, I'm good, thanks. Thanks for joining me. Pleasure. So you're somebody who came through really strongly in the early 2010s, and you became a household name at one point. Everyone that's listening to the podcast will know of your name and know your music. But I wanted to just delve into what was going on before the 2010s and what was going on in that kind of lead up to making what I might do and like breaking through and all of that kind of stuff. So maybe if you start around like the mid 2000s, perhaps, is that does that feel like a good place to start?

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Yeah, I guess it was leaving college around that time, maybe, and then just going into work. I think the the transition to electronic music anyway was I was into bands, obviously, with pop pong to heavy metal, to a lot of hip-hop from that scene, and then went from there to like drum and bass dub step. Obviously, got introduced around that time, so that was prevalent. And then I was just working different jobs, offices, and and things like that. Um and then just started obviously going out at the weekends, meeting people, and then got into promoting and then got into DJing. So it's a bit of a I think a familiar path into it for quite a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah, for sure. And where were you going out? What were some of the hotspots that you were hitting up when you first started getting out there?

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Um so aside from like the rock and metal clubs, which were slightly different, there was obviously Sankey's, there was obviously Area 51, Joshua Brooks was still in its infancy at that time. Um, and there was a few other places. So yeah, it was quite a mix. It was a really good scene in Manchester, and obviously a lot of those places are still there or under different names.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Nice one. And that's where you is that where you grew up then, Manchester.

SPEAKER_03 3:02

Yeah, yeah. South Manchester, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Cool, man. Because there's there's always been such a great music scene up there, anyway, whether it's bands, electronic music, etc.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

Yeah, it's super strong. I think it's sort of without sounding cliche, I think you get if you live in Manchester, you usually get end up with a quite a strong music background, whether it be whatever genre it was.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, for sure, man. And what turned you on to house music? Because you mentioned drum and bass and dubstep, and actually, I have a very similar background myself. Drum and bass was my first love. I went on to Garage and RB and hip-hop and and then dubstep around the early 2000s, going up all the way from until like 2010. But I was also listening to house as well, you know, as a as a music lover. But for me, going to ibe for in 2010 really switched me on to house and techno. So, what what was the switching point for you?

SPEAKER_03 3:52

I think it's you know the sort of thing at the time when you meet a new group of friends, and that's when I started to go into more house and techno nights. One of the early events that I remember is Danny Danag there. I think he must have been doing a long set at Sankey's. I remember going there pretty much the whole night and just you'd obviously heard house music on the radio and in different situations, but that was the first I think it was that there was like funk agenda at the time for like the more techno side, and there's a few nights where I really remember as like an early introduction to it. Um, and then yeah, you just got hooked from there, really. So it was um, but they had Tanaglia was the one I think that stands out.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah, I'm not surprised, man. What a G Tanaglia is, man. And so how did things progress in terms of you ending up promoting and doing your own parties?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Yeah, so it's I started promoting for I think it was like a fidget house night, like a base house night, um, just because it was something to do, something that seemed fun at the time. And then they were the guys who actually lent me a pair of turntables. So just started learning off a load of like yeah, just old like electro house mostly, just old vinyl. So learn off that and then promoting wires. Yeah, I think I just started I started DJing first, and then you sort of naturally, I think most people just try and start their own thing if they can't get in elsewhere or or however it lands. So then just started doing my own our own parties, got together with a couple of people and put on some events and then managed to run this quite successful, albeit small underground party for a number of years, um, where we booked art department for the first Manchester show. We booked Death on the Balcony back in the day and Marquee, um Wicked People, um, and it was so much fun. So that was really just it seems like so long ago that I can't quite remember the exact timeline of it, but um it was uh it felt natural at the time. And again, it's it's quite a common thing, isn't it? So you start DJing, you start making your own making your own way and figuring out.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

And whereabouts was the party and what was it called?

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Uh so it was called Tree House in Manchester. Um, I've still got a tree tattooed on my arm, and not like it was gonna go anywhere, but off that. So yeah, we started that and and did that for a number of years. Um, it didn't end very well, so I won't talk about that. But yeah, I think I really fondly remember those times. I think it was just at that point where Deep House was coming around because it started more in the sort of tribal area. We started in the summer, and it was like tribally sort of housey stuff in a on a rooftop, and then deep house really came around and wolf and lamb and all these people, and that's the sort of sound we just ended up going with, and it just made sense.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Did you notice not just at your own event, but just across Manchester, other places that you might have been going to, that there was that sound that was starting to come through?

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, it was still mixed in, especially in the early days of the it felt like it was getting more traction elsewhere. I think Leeds definitely took it on quite early, as you'd know. And yeah, I feel like we we were doing it and a few people were, but yeah, it seemed to be in those years. I think that would have been what 2010 to 2010 to 2012, maybe that sort of period. Um, so yeah, you definitely felt it, everything just getting a bit slower, a bit more RB soul influence to it. A few more samples coming back, a few the the BPM just slowly dropping every every event, and then you just had the the big tracks at the time, and obviously the labels coming out and the the artists blowing up around that time just were championing it. So it was amazing to witness it sort of blossom from from not much. Obviously, Deep House had been around for years, but that sort of specific mix because it was a sort of fusion, yeah, especially in the UK. It was uh yeah, to see it all come together.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Yeah, man. And what about your your general kind of outlook in terms of did you were you thinking much about the future and where you might go with stuff, or was it just literally like I enjoy doing this and I'm just gonna do this because this is what I like doing?

SPEAKER_03 8:21

Yeah, I never thought about it. I never thought about it as a career. Um, never thought about it at more than it was just at the next weekend, wasn't it? It was just obviously when you're a promoter, you sort of book things in six months in advance, but we were just part planning the next party and then just having fun with it. It never never seemed bigger than that. It was we played in Leeds, we played in you know, Blackpool and Bury and Bolton and places like that, Wales occasionally, Chester, but it never came out of the Northwest for us, so or for me. So, no, I never never thought forward on it at all.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

And was was it kind of like a hundred percent house for you DJ-wise and events-wise, but were you still listening to other stuff outside of that?

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Yeah, yeah. I've always listened to I mean, that sounds again cliche, but I've always listened to quite an eclectic uh amount. I've I've always been into bands, I still am. Um hip-hop's always been a massive favourite. Uh, I think I used to get quite frustrated when we used to go back to like um afters and everyone would just bang on house and techno, and I just want to listen to obscure, like you know, just weird stuff or hip-hop stick a hip-hop mix on for an hour. No, I was always listening to everything, so I and I think we we did you we did used to do some like Sunday parties as well, where we could play a bit of ambient stuff or some a lot more downbeat, like down tempo things and some eclectic things like that. So, yeah, it was always a mix, but then mostly it was just like house in the um deep house house and adjacent things, yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

And what what was the general I don't really want to use the word vibe because it feels a bit funny, but like what was the general kind of atmosphere or um energy of that time? Because when when I think back to it, uh obviously like this huge amount of nostalgia attached, but it really felt like everyone that I knew was into music, into going out to things, not just house, but other things as well, and there was a lot more um of a I guess like a cross genre um community that I was connected to, and and everyone was just out like every weekend. It didn't really felt like there was feel like there was ever a weekend where I wasn't out somewhere at some event dancing and listening to music.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Yeah, it did seem that like it it was just a very tight-knit group, as in like you you would always see the same people. Um, and even especially in Manchester, you sort of had the you people you definitely know it would be at that venue, and definitely know it would be at that venue, but a lot of them would mix and you'd go for one place first, and you'd all go to the same kind of bars before, um, and then end up in the same after. So it was very tight-knit community, which made it so much so so different in a way to like rely on that. And then it was almost sort of a strange thing when you went out and there wasn't people there. You know, if you went to the one party and then none of your mates were there, and you looking around the venue and you don't know anyone, it was bizarre. You used to knowing about 100 people in a club or even more. So, yeah, that sense of community, which was really good.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

And what was it like for you booking people like art department, etc., who you know, for for us, even today and and back then, were you know we idolized people like that. They were like, you know, up on that pedestal, people that we we loved their music, but we also you know went to all of their gigs if we could, downloaded all of their podcasts, you know, it was those that kind of level of adoration, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Yeah, I don't know. I think I've always been quite quite chilled with people, even at that stage. I I can never remember really getting like starstruck or blown away. But then you're meeting people who have got this, I know what the kids say aura these days, don't they? So but they it's true, they have they've just got something about them, and it's just different, but and they're just they're immense at what they do, and it was so fresh at the time. And then obviously, I was playing a lot of shows supporting all sorts of old, older, established names as well, so it was a mix, but yeah, it was uh it was a great time to be able to bring over people that I mean, even you're a kid from Manchester who's just falling into this music scene that you don't know really much about. I think you're quite uneducated at that point about the origins of music and and where it's come from. And you're booking these people from America and they're flying halfway across the world coming and drinking in the same pubs you were. We developed a really strong relationship with a lot of people from Mexico because of that sort of deep hal scene that blew up there. So then we were having these lads who were really good mates at the time coming over from Mexico and absolutely in tears that we were drinking Cabrona, they couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe we were paying five pounds for a corona, they were in tears on the floor laughing about it, and then you just got to learn about cultures and and and people from all across the world. So it was mind-blowing at the time. Actually, to be honest, at the time I probably didn't acknowledge this at all. But thinking back, yeah, um, it must have left an impression that you just you're able to do this, and it's just crazy. And I think now it's like even back then, it probably would have felt a bit more strange because now it's everything's connected. We've we've seen boiler rooms, we're all we're all so connected, we know what's going on in LA. We can tap in and watch sets, and back then it wasn't so much of that. There was a few podcasts, a few radios, a few blogs. But these people just turn up on your doorstep from the US or wherever they're coming from, and just come on and play records.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

So talking about the Mexican lot, especially. I I remember when climbers first started coming through, and I was like, Wow, like it's gonna sound really ignorant, but I was like, Wow, there's people making house music in Mexico, and then um you know, Sishi came through and Miguel Puente, Alex Rubel, the Mex of Records guys, and I was just like, Wow, this is and that that was a proper moment for for all of them, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Yeah, yeah. So we were like when I first started uh label, we got quite introduced with them and and did a lot of stuff with them and released on everyone released on each other's labels at the time, so that was like such a strong connection, and that's just mad it's like there's Mexico and Manchester, yeah. Uh and they're so intertwined by this one sort of genre of music. It wasn't just Manchester, but you know, from our point of views. Um, but that was just amazing.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

And how old how how old were you at that time?

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Uh would have been 20. Nice one, yeah, about 20.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Wow, nice.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

2009 was 20, right? I'm so bad with numbers, mate. Yeah, about twenty. Yeah, about twenty.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, amazing, man. So, how did all of this stuff lead on to you getting into the production side of things?

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Again, it I think it was just something that you fall into and you want to start messing about with. You want to make your own edits because edits are a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

I think you wanted to put your own spin on stuff. I remember trying trying to make edits, and at that time it was taking R and B vocals and trying to put a bass line under it. And then I did a few stuff, a few couple of releases, a few edits. Some of them did quite well, some of them, you know, just whatever. Um, but I was all just taught teaching myself in a bedroom with a MacBook. I wasn't taking it too seriously because again, I didn't think of myself as a professional, so I was just messing about basically. And luckily, we had access to these clubs, so you could go and test things in a club, you could plug your laptop in, you could try out some kick drums and see which one sounded good, see if things balanced on a club system before it opened or while stuff was going on downstairs. So you had that ability to understand a little bit quicker, but yeah, everything was just was just a happy mess about and see what happens, which some of the best stuff comes from.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Definitely, definitely. There's there's a lot of people who played around with experimented with edits first of all, and then it led on to really big things for them. I just did a post on Bicep yesterday, and yeah, they did a lot of edits in their earlier times. And uh guy called Lee Webster, who was doing a lot of stuff around that time, he he used to send me tons of edits, all the different colours. He did an edit of Oasis once, which actually sounded pretty good. And yeah, it's it's a it's a really I guess it's like a kind of safe way to start, but also you can create secret weapons for your sets that nobody else can have.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think it's always been a thing, it's it's definitely become more of a thing again now. I mean, I'm not as tapped into to house music at the moment, just naturally, but I I've definitely seen edits and and bootlegs becoming more of a more of a thing. Um, so it'll never go away. It'll always go in cycles, won't it? But it's it's 100%. I think uh if anyone's talking to me or asking me about learning to produce, that's the first thing I'll say. Just get a sample that you like, find a vocal that you like, and just try and make something work under it or throw some stuff together, take a part of tune and put it back, or loop some stuff up. Because you've got all the components there, you don't really need to do much. That's why that's why it was so popular with samplers back in the day. Yeah, you can just do things on the fly and learn. Exactly. Also, like re-reshape sounds, uh, and then you can focus on creating your own. Because I always find I still find it hard to create my own sounds now, because I never think it sounds full enough. Then you throw a sample in and everything just suddenly lifts sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

So, what about making your own stuff, making your own original productions, and then the lead up to what I might do?

SPEAKER_03 18:23

Yeah, so again, thinking of the timeline now. Yeah, I had a few releases, I was just plodding along, not really doing much. What I might do started out sort of like an edit. Weirdly, I was messing around with uh I think it was a poem about cats, which sounds weird. But you remember how it was at the time you you wanted to make stuff that was sort of vaguely creepy for like that late night thing, you know. Nicholas Jar was a big thing at back in the day, and like that kind of sort of a really cat heavy vibe.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

I'm guessing that's the only way I can describe it, but it's yeah, those like weird pitched down vocals and stuff, and it's quite trippy and like kind of psychedelic, but a bit creepy and a bit dark, and then you chuck a chunky bass line underneath it, and it's like bosh.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

That's how it started. So it was a um it was a poem about cats, I'm pretty sure, and it had all these like weird soundscapes in, and I was messing around with that and some bass lines, and it sat there for ages, and then I got the the vocal, just put it on, and it really worked. And then I I can't remember, I think I must have played it out a few times, always had a good reaction, but I just sort of went, Oh, that's what it is, what it is. I think I had it on a CD, and then I never even would think to release it. I probably would have put it as an edit. I think I put it on sound, maybe put it on SoundCloud as like a trap first. And then my friend Andy who strepford doors club, that was his alias. Um he was he booked Solomon for a show in Manchester, picked him up from the airport and just had this CD in his car, which had my tune on it, and just by luck it came on. And then Solomon asked, What's that? So he told him, and then he remembered he texted me at the time and said, Hey, Solomon wants this wants this track off me. Is it all right if I give it him? And I was like, Yeah, of course, whatever. Again, didn't think much of it, I just thought, oh, maybe he's just intrigued or whatever. Then it ends up he just played that quite a lot. Um, and then the rest is his tree, I guess. It just got but that was such a chance meeting. I'd like to think it would have it still would have done okay, but the way that that happened just seems so serendipitous. You're like it's it was a random CD that you had in his car that you just shoved in when he was picking someone from the airport, and it's a 20-30 minute drive, he might not have even got for all the tracks. It's wild to think about.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, really, really, really wild. And I've got to say a big shout out to Streatford Dogs Club Andy, because he was someone that I was I would always listen to his podcasts, and he was very, very consistent with putting out podcasts, playing loads of great music. And I heard what I might do first time through him because it was on at least three or four of his podcasts, because he he played it a lot, and um, yeah, I've got to say big shout out to him because maybe there are people listening to his podcast that might not remember him or might not have even been aware of him at the time, but certainly I think uh on the British side of things he was a very prominent figure and I'd say quite influential actually.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've known Andy for at least that long. We we used to go to the match together, not uh United matches a couple of years a few years ago. Um, and he ran movement he ran movement obviously for so many years in Manchester and booked everyone from America. Well, one of the most iconic house music nights in Manchester for God knows how many years. And then we tried a little night, we ran a couple of nights together, booked Theo Parish and plenty of people, which was Amazing, but yeah, he's one of the best DJs I've ever known, and one of the one of the best to do it, especially on Manchester 100%. Uh yeah, I don't I don't think he gets the uh flowers that he deserves sometimes, but it's always the way, yeah, for sure, man.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

So tell me how did things spiral or blow up from from Solomon playing it? And you know, did did you start getting words that it was being played out? Were people reaching out to you saying I want this tune? Like what what were the next kind of steps after that?

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Yeah, so at the at the time, so I'd signed it with or I'd agreed to sign it with Under the Shade.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Um, so I'd pre agreed it with them, didn't sign any documents. But basically, and then we were trying to figure out obviously it's a sample, they were a small label, we didn't they didn't know if they had the facilities to go and clear that sample and and all that sort of stuff that came with it. So that was just basically on ice. We just went, maybe we'll do a white label, maybe we'll do this, and it's blowing up, it sort of started to blow up on SoundCloud, and and um obviously then Solomon started playing it. Uh the dynamic crew all got in on it. Um, and then there's a few videos of them playing it in big venues, you know, Abetha and Berlin and places. And then I think as a result of that, uh Will from Jason Status was in Panorama bar when Solomon played it, and he said as soon as he heard it, he needed to find out who made it. Um, and me being a kid from come from the metal scene and heard drum and bass. I got an email that basically said I was in work and then got an email that said, Hi, it's Will from Jason Status. I want to sign your record. And I ignored it for about three weeks because I was like, Well, that's obviously fake. Complete bullshit, there's no way. I just ignored it. I was and then I was just I think I came back to it, it was quite a long time, and then looked at the domain because I didn't really know they had a record label, I think it wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Went on the record label site and was like, oh, this actually looks legit. So I messaged them back and then obviously ended up going down to London to have a chat with them, and then it just went from there, really. They they helped bit with the production, which was massive because again, bedroom producer and yeah, the giants that they are got it into a bit more of a professional sounding quality. Um, and then yeah, it just took I think it was that beat port number one few months of just riding off that, really, which is this the start of it all. Um yeah, I think there was months those months before. I think there was rumblings. I was I was playing played a show in Belgium, I think that was my first solo show abroad, club near Ghent. And then there was a couple of others, but again, I well, I wasn't ever envisioning it was going anywhere. I was just enjoying it. You know, I was working a nine to five job in a call centre. I was flying over to Belgium or Gibraltar at the weekend, coming back on Monday, knackered, and then just thinking, oh well, do this a few times, it's not that different than going out in Manchester.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Let's talk a little bit more about what I might do on the the production side of things because even today it sounds so different to so many of the other tunes that are out there. You know, it's like it's got something very particular about it that is it's difficult to actually put my finger on, but you know the the bass line, the the the the the melody, like all of the sounds that are in it. You you can't really you can say it's house music for sure, but you can't really pigeonhole it or say it sounds like this or it sounds like that or it sounds like it came from that label. It's it's very particular in its sound.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

It's because I didn't know what I was doing, to be honest. Like that's just the short answer of it. I was I was throwing stuff together and seeing what stuck. I think it probably sounded a little bit different in the beginning. I wonder whether there is a version of it. I've I've been so bad at keeping stuff, and I wish I already kept things because people always ask me for edits, and oh, you remember you did this edit years ago, if you still got it, and I I don't have any of it. And uh yeah, so I think it was just one of them. I think even when I listen to it now, and obviously heard it probably just as much as some people have, probably more. I think it it's one of those that I I understand maybe why Will loved it because when you hear it in a club, it's a completely different experience. And to be fair, it still blows my mind sometimes when you play in a big club and the booth shakes, like it's that tickles a the sort of drum and bass um the steps out of me. And it was obvious why he resonated with it so much, but I don't think I ever intended that. I think I I made it, and I I did remember, I remember playing it on a I think it was Spectrum and above Sankey's. I remember playing it and going, oh buddy, hell, that's that's great. Like that sounds really cool, but um it wasn't quite right because the kick didn't really work and it was a bit weird, but at the time you don't really care because you're young and you're not you're not obsessing about those things. I've I've never claimed to be a a top, and I I don't still don't call myself a producer or something. I'm still self-taught, but yeah, it I think it was just that. I think it was just it was original almost to a fault that ended up just working in a way, and and some people call it luck. Don't really care.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

I think you know, you uh you make your own luck, don't you though? By you know, if if you'd have never given out that C D if it wasn't in Andy's hands in the first place, if you'd never have been sitting at home tinkering around, you know, try trying to make something, none of those steps or none of the steps that happened afterwards would have would have occurred. So you kind of you you make your own luck by putting yourself out there in the first place. You could have just sat on that tune forever, you know, and and not even giving it out to anybody.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

So yeah, exactly. I mean that's I mean, all the not all the best songs, but you hear them stories all the time of how tunes came together or how things happened, and it's never the way you expect it. I think there's maybe with the massive songs, there's maybe a bit of PR dress-up stuff.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Um but yeah, it's always been really honest. It was just it was a it was a bedroom track that became like global. It was uh it was quite uh and it was still it's still weird to me. Like it's still bizarre. I you know, you look on your Spotify raps, and there's that many million people still listening to it. It still blows my mind to this day. It's not like I ever settle on it and and feel uh comfortable with it. Like I've I've met people in on tour on the other side of the world where that's the first electronic music song they ever heard.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

And that's what got them into it, and now they're producing. Which I think the first guy to do that, I immediately took his phone and made a list of other songs that you should listen to that are way better. So I've got affronted by it. I was like, wait, no, no, no, no, no. Come on, let's do some homework here. Um but yeah, no, it still blows my mind, so I'm eternally grateful for it and not not ever gonna uh I don't think I'll ever sit back and and sort of be nonchalant about it.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah, man. Yeah, that that's physiotypically humble of you though, man. It's just your way, it's just your way though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yeah, exactly. I think it's uh I think so many people are like that. I think you you have this perception of and I think I think it's maybe almost to a fault because I was so brutally honest about the fact that I was um just a normal bloke, they've got a bit lucky, and I said it too often, maybe. And people idolise these producers, and then you meet them, and obviously not gonna name names, but you meet them and realize that they're just struggling as much as any other artists, they don't know what not don't know what they're doing, but they struggle with finishing tunes, they struggle with motivation and creativity. They don't just walk into a studio and hit a button and it turns into gold. A lot of people struggle with it, um, and they only put out the best stuff, and that's what you hear. So, yeah, I think I've maybe been humble up to a fault. Um, and I've called myself a one-hit wonder so many times that other people have started thinking it. So it's a double-edged sword, but I'll always be honest.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, man, that's what I love about you. So tell me about the the DJ side of things because having a tune like that go as stratospheric as it did obviously has a big kickback for what you're gonna be doing DJ-wise. So you then I guess started getting book booked all over the place. So I remember seeing you playing in Barcelona and like here and there and everywhere, and it must have been such a wild time for you in in many respects.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Yeah, it was um I like to think it was quite smooth for a bit. As in, like um, I remember the first time I played Amnesia, my manager at the time asking me, he was like, You're not nervous, and I was like, No. I was like, same decks, I know what I'm playing, no problem. I think that maybe the challenge I went from a very eclectic, you know, I was warming up for a huge variety of artists in Manchester, whether it be techno, it would be deep house, house, whatever. And I was always quite I wanted to play everything, and I was quite into a lot of different genres, a lot of more underground stuff, and I was very aware that I was now playing you know these big stages and having to play a certain style, which I absolutely love. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't like I was playing any music that I didn't like, it was just that I had a lot of other music that I did like that I didn't play, yeah. But then I also managed to get into different situations, and you end up playing different countries, and then you figure out that in Spain they like a bit more techno and a bit more melodic, and then in you know, certain places they prefer a bit of disco in-house, and then you you get used to those um those like little differences between gigs, and also just playing with a variety of people. I play with a huge variety of artists and play before them, especially in the in the early days, be playing a lot of warm-up sets. So I got to play a bit, mess around with with different sounds, ended up having to get clothes in places, so going a lot harder with things. So it was always I always tried to keep my options open and try to play as big a variety of stuff as I possibly could. But yeah, it was fun, man. Like I think it was, you know, as I said, like I held on for as long as I could with my job. So I was going and playing two shows a weekend for about six months because I just never thought it was gonna last, you know. I didn't want to be that sort of guy that goes and chases a career in music and then ends up struggling. I just didn't seem to see that as the right thing to do. So I just wanted to be absolutely sure, and then it got to a point where I was like, I can't do this anymore, and I've got gigs for the next year booked in, yeah, and then just embraced it. So it was uh it was definitely an all it was like a it was not zero to everything, but it was it was ramped up so quickly after it it came out, and then it ramped up again after it got re-released, and it just went it went crazy from there. So yeah, it was a lot of traveling.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Yeah, I bet. Was there anything in particular about the the traveling and the the touring that you found tricky? And and also was were there any other artists that you connected with on you know kind of like friendship level that became kind of like you know a loosely affiliated crew?

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Yeah, I think well, obviously we had the purple and soul lot to begin with, so that's the first mention that we I we built a crew and we were all coming up together. Lawrence Guy is obviously still doing amazing things now. Harry Watson is still releasing music, Joel Wilson's still releasing music. So we came up with like these talented blokes, we were all around the same age, we were having such good fun. Yeah, and then when it started to to play, obviously, we that UKD cast scene was so strong. So you think in Lights of Shadow Child and Huxley, you know, T Williams, everyone like that. We've had Dusky coming through, Maribu State. There was such a grud, and you just you're playing the same shows as everybody, seeing people at festivals, and then I had my management people as well, so Seth and Jackmaster player, Patrick Toppin, and people like that. So you just build them relationships naturally, but because I didn't, I didn't, I was never signed to a label, I never released on a a hot creations or a innervisions or a um whatever. I never really had a sort of crew that I regularly played with. Festivals, I would always end up on a stage with, you know, in Netherlands it would be quite techno in France and everywhere else, it'd be quite bassy. So it would be Jamie XX and Bodica, or it would be Ron Trent and and uh whoever else, Dave Clark or someone. So I never had a crew, I don't think. Once I left, once with Purp and Soul sort of faded away, and it and it was sort of my fault that I didn't carry on because I at the time I was just too busy, and I don't think I ever found a little tight-knit crew like that again. But you just fall into it naturally. You had so many friends in the industry, and everyone was so friendly, man. Like it didn't even have to be artists, it was just it was sound techs, and it was liaisons, it was drivers, it was journalists, you know, it was uh anyone and everyone that just made every show and every festival what it was. They were the people you saw every day, and you'd be so happy to see someone, you'd be like, Oh my god, you're working here. Sick, I can talk to you for the day. Like so nice to be able to like connect with people like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Yeah, yeah, that was that was a really nice side of it as well. That perhaps um, you know, some of the people on the dance floor may not have been privy to, but there there was like a whole international family behind the scenes that you would bump into here, there, and everywhere. And that was um that was a really nice side of it for me, not only on a professional level, but it was just like you say, it was so lovely to turn up somewhere and you'd be like surprised that the person was there because you didn't know they were gonna be at that particular club or festival, and you're just like, Wow, great, right? Let's go and have some fun.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Yeah, it's just brilliant. Like, and it's it's exactly the same as what we were saying earlier about when you just go out to a club and you see your friends there and you didn't know they were gonna be there. It's the same feeling, you know. I've got and then because you you're obviously working and and traveling a lot, you don't see people for so long, and then they randomly show up behind you and you know boot you in the back or like grab your head and go, hey, and then you're completely surprised. So it's yeah, it's an amazing time because quite often people just tag along, they were not not even on the lineup, or sometimes you're so busy you don't put check the lineups and you just uh turn up and go, Oh crap, we all played at this sick.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Yeah, the those uh those chance encounters or those surprise encounters were often the catalyst behind mischief.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Yeah, it's a lot of that. Absolutely a lot of that. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Tell me a bit about a bit more about Purp and Soul, because um I was listening to only the other day, I was listening to one of the podcasts, I think it was episode 12, and the the podcast, similar to Stretford Sox Club, actually, it was a podcast that I regularly listen to. Actually, it during that whole time there were a number of podcasts that were it's so funny because talk about podcasts now, which is what we're doing, which is chatting to each other, and that's become the the term like now. But back then a podcast was a basically a mixed series. But there were so many that I would listen to like every single week or month when they dropped, and you got so excited about the fact that there was a new one by so and so, and there's all this music you'd never heard before, and you were trying to ID the stuff, and you'd send a link to your mates, and everyone would be like getting hyped about it. And Purp and Soul podcast was one of those, but also the label you guys put out loads of great music, man. So, can you tell me a little bit more about how that came together and um you know who was behind it and what the general was?

SPEAKER_03 38:26

Yeah, so like again, uh timeline's fuzzy because it was a long time ago. So Chris Farmouth, who I started it with, was um, I think he he had the idea to start a label to begin with, and then came to me, and then we sort of came up with the idea, the branding and everything, and he was very business focused, very organized, very um, had a good vision in mind. And then we just started from there, really. We collected just kids that were like me, essentially, uh people who just had a shared goal and a shared idea about music, and I think we built a really strong little career. I think when we used to go and do label showcases, the music was always like in the right area. We we all got got it with each other. We didn't really and sort of you aspire to be, you know, the wolf and lamb hot creations at the time as well. But I never thought we I don't think we ever had any strong ambitions like that. I don't think we ever were like, we need to like go places and take this somewhere. I think it was just we're enjoying the moment and really enjoying being around each other. Like I still talked to a lot of those guys, and yeah, it was just a great time. And I I think it's probably a regret of mine that I let it slip. That's probably on me that I I got busy and and ended up touring and and and doing all my stuff, and I sort of let it go. And obviously, those guys, a lot of those guys are still releasing music and still doing really well. But I think that's probably a regret of mine that I I let that go and I let a community go that was strong and could have been a lot more not for any commercial or capital reason. It's just the connection and the community it brought was definitely something later on down the line that I realized that I fucked up by leaving it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, it was fun as a as an outsider, it was funny because it it was very prominent for a time and then just kind of just like as you say, actually, it just kind of seemed to fade away. And as I said before, I really enjoyed listening to the podcast. I played a lot of the releases as well. You you guys were very good in terms of the curation with the releases and everything, and um, yeah, it's a shame, but these things happen, don't they? This is this is life, especially when you're working in music and other aspects of your career sweep you up, and sometimes there's nothing you can do, you know. Even even if you could have been a bit more conscious about that, could you have really managed all of that stuff? You know, you you you don't know really, do you?

SPEAKER_03 40:51

Yeah, exactly. I think there's it's it's all well and good looking back on it, but things happen in the moment, uh, and you do what you you make your decisions in the moment, and you just have to live with them eventually. Definitely. So, yeah, but I think it's it's fun to look back on it. And and listen, I've been playing so many um throwback shows recently. I'll just book for the throwback shows, and then any shows I do play, I probably still play the little bit of that music because it's come back around again, and I just love it. Yeah, man. And having spent a few hours digging through the music again, I'm just like, oh, why wouldn't I play this? Um, so I'm still playing all the records off that brilliant off purpose. So and they st they still absolutely go off, so it's not like it's gone anywhere. It's still it still feels relevant and current, which is really good.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yeah, good for you guys, man. What a legacy. And tell me about how did what I might do end up being on a Tesco advert.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

I have um I have absolutely no idea. I think I'm assuming it's just a sync artist, they want to they commission it. Because I remember getting told about it and it was it was very much being clear at the time it was Florence and Fred, it wasn't Tesco. Oh yeah. Different fashion, it was fashion, high fashion. This was yeah um, but yeah, I think at the time it was just I was I was doing my own thing. I was full on touring. I was um I think I'd been to Australia about the time, I'd been Asia and America and uh South America, I think probably. So I was just like, yeah, well, why not? I don't I don't think it was my decision to be honest. I think uh I was very much like the label said this is happening, so deal with it. But I think they still asked me anyway, you know, keep you in the loop. Yeah, um, and yeah, it was just one of those that it because it had been out a year, it had sort of not gone away, but um I was still playing it all the time, it was still really popular, but then it just hit a level where I didn't I couldn't have even predicted it had got that far. Um, it was mind-blowing. Because I think at the time as well, like now you've got house musics everywhere, like even like even pop songs or house music, they've got at the time you didn't really have that too much. Again, this is again, I'm gonna get the timelines wrong, but it was before I think it was slightly before look right through, but it was around that time where it was just sort of knocking on the door of the the sort of commercial world, and then remember seeing it on TV for the first time, and then I also remember it, I think it was the most Shazam song in the UK ever. Wow, which I don't think Shazam had been around that long, so that impressive for one of those things, which is just yeah crazy. Because obviously it just came on this this advert and people just went crazy for it, and then it then got into the charts, it went it went crazy again in in Europe, in Belgium, and Italy in 2013, and that's usually when when most people associate with it, that's that time, yeah. It really broke through and and got into got into everyone's consciousness.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Because you made it in 2011.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

Yeah, and then it was released 2012 the first time September 2012, it got released, and then it was September 2013, it got re-released pretty much a year after. Or around that time. I can't remember exactly, but it was about a year after.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Because it charted it was top ten, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:23

Yeah, yeah. It was number seven seven, I think.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Seven.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Yeah, I think it stayed there for a while.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

It's so funny that you say that about how today house music is pop music. And you know, there's there's always been dance music in the charts from the 80s, and you know, a lot of the early house tracks were on top of the pops and stuff, and you know, there's always been dance music, but around that time, the the music that we enjoyed at that time had not necessarily broken through into the commercial domain to that extent. So it's really interesting that you pointed that out because I actually hadn't thought about that, but it's that's very true. That's that was like a a beginning of a kind of watershed moment for the more underground, I guess like less commercially viable music it felt like to us at the time because it came from the underground, you know. Like when when we when when I think about what I might do, when I think about Hungry for the Power, when I think about all of these tunes that people now are like, wow, those are like anthems, but they were underground tunes, they were not being played in like huge, huge clubs to that extent. Um, and they came from smaller clubs, and they came from artists who weren't necessarily that well known at the time, who are now superstars, household names almost. So it's really interesting to think about that how there was this kind of slight shifts where those tunes were starting to make it in the charts, and they were getting more radio play, and you know, it was becoming more of a commercially viable kind of scene, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Yeah, because I mean you had the 90s where you had so many, you know, big dance songs, um, which were all classics. Now that we we look at it at classics, and then noise was more in the UK, at least it was like bands, wasn't it? It was like Brit pop and you know bands and stuff. And you had your generic pop music, you have obviously your girl and boy bands and things like that. And then you can you can sort of hear it in that music, like Hungry for the Power, for example, and my tune. They're not made for big big rooms, like big stages and big spectacle. They were made in little in for small venues or small-ish venues. Don't get wrong, people are still playing pretty sizable venues back then, but I don't think they were made with that sort of anthem in mind. They were written as like a a soundtrack to a scene that was going on. It wasn't written with a with a spectacle and a stage in mind. Um it was written for a for a culture that was developed and developing in smaller rooms and and room threes of clubs and room twos of clubs. I think you can definitely hear that in the in the song composition, and you can hear it in the even the arrangement and the intent behind the drops, they're sort of just groove, they're not like as big sort of CO2 canon inspired. Yeah, like I'm not obviously not dragging it, like do what you want, but you can definitely hear it. I think you can hear that. Um I think listening back as well, you can 100% hear the cataman in the in the mixtapes, yeah. Man, yeah, and it was just loose, everything was looser, it was slower. Because you don't I don't think you realize how how uh slow everything was. Like playing these shows now. If if someone finishes on 124, I look through my USB and I'm like, oh my god, like my fastest song was 124. Yeah, you realize how slow music was back then, how we we start a night on 110 and we'd finish on 118. Yeah, everything was slow, everything was considered, everything was a bit different, and that probably goes with what people were taking at the time, and it probably goes with what people were used to and and how the night goes, and it's not just constant energy.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Totally agree, man. Totally agree. Yeah, there's a there's a lot to be said for the substances that were most prominent and being proliferated most around that time, and certainly Kermin is responsible for a lot of behind the scenes uh decisions in terms of like what was being made.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

That's that people think they were really sexy dancers, and in fact, they were just sort of stepping from side to side of the dead and cameo acting.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

So tell me um on the uh on on the other side of things, what I might do at some point became quite challenging for you because it was almost like people just came to come and watch you play because they were waiting for that tune. And I've I've actually spoken to other DJs who have who've gone through a similar thing where they're like, um, actually, I think it was um who was it? Was it Ten Snake? I think Ten Snake spoke about this in an interview saying he stopped playing Coma Cat because he just got so tired of people just come in and and if he didn't play it, they were upset with him. Or if he did, that was the moment they were waiting for, and then they'd just go once he's finished the tune finished and he'd mixed out of it. It must be so difficult because you know, on the one hand, that's what's kind of got you into that position, and you can understand that people have that expectation, but when the expectation is literally that's all they want from you, and they don't have any kind of consideration about the fact that you're a DJ who's playing an hour and a half, two hours of lots of other stuff, including your own productions, must be a difficult thing to go through, man.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

Yeah, I mean, I think maybe I was a little bit aware of this before because I was so into like bands, and you'd see interviews with bands, and they'd 100% say the same thing, like we're sick of playing our first album, or like we're sick of playing this song because that's the only thing people know, and like they've maybe a bit more strong opinion about it. I think with what I found difficult was because I was playing so many different types of shows, so I was playing disco sets, I was playing like deep house ones eventually. You know, talk after a few years. I think for the first few years I had my own sound, I was just playing headline, and then I was slotting in different places, so I'd go and play certain places where I'm playing a bit more techno, and then all of a sudden it doesn't really work. You can't really play it in a hundred twenty-seven BPM techno set because it would just change the vibe, but people would still ask for it, and you're like, Oh no, it's not really gonna quite work because I don't want to take the limelight of someone else who's playing behind me, it's a whole thing. I'm a big believer in the night should flow start to finish. So yeah, no, I definitely struggled with that for a while. I don't think I I think when I didn't play it, yeah. You got pelters from people in the crowd. I think I did struggle with it for a while. I I probably went, I don't think I ever like went on strike with it and just didn't play it at all, but I definitely didn't enjoy playing it as much. But then you do do full circle and think, well, this is what this is the only reason why you're here, and you know, I I I struggle with with self-esteem and and confidence and and all sorts of things, which will tie into that, but ultimately you have to be completely happy that that's you know, it resonates with so many people. Like I had to play at a wedding recently, which was because they were so happy. It was my mate's wedding, and I said I'd DJ the whole thing, and yeah, we was just playing wedding tunes, and then someone was like, Oh, can you make you make sure you play your song? And I was like, Oh, for God's sake, you know, like I don't, it just feels weird. I feel weird in that situation. It's like when people used to put it on in a social situation. I was like, Oh my god. I remember I do remember there was a time when I was walking back from the studio, and I just had a really bad day. I wasn't anything that I was making wasn't working. It was really struggling. I was walking down Market Street in Manchester, and it it was blasting out of at least three shops on the lockdown, and it was like like it was taunting me, like it was saying, Oh no, you're never gonna make anything this good again, you're useless. So, yeah, you have a love-hate relationship, but I think now I'm now that I'm a I'm not playing as much. Um I think you just enjoy it every time, and it and it still gets a massive reaction, which is absolutely crazy.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Yeah, I was just gonna say, um, when you played uh Crash and your mates that you were with, this was um when was it? It was like May, was that May, yeah. And uh your mates that you were with, I don't think I think because you played in Redding the day before, didn't you? So they'd they'd heard you play, but one of your mates was just like, I can't like he was in the crowd and he was like, everyone was singing along, and he was just like blown away by like this 500 a thousand people all around him, just like singing along to it, and he was like, I I can't I actually can't believe it. It's been like such an amazing moment, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:01

And it's crazy like after all that time that it still hits that hard. I mean, obviously, that was that was like a bit of an older crowd and a bit of a throwback sort of scenario. People were there to hear maybe hear some classics, but also see some people they haven't seen in a while, and Crash is just that well established. It's got such a everyone knows this, the crowd knows the shit. But yeah, I think it's uh it's one of those things that you I think everyone will go through it. I think anyone that's had any sort of song, and I mean producers hate this hate your own music. Like I hate all the music that I release, even if it's brand new. I don't like playing it out. I think I avoid playing my own stuff out quite a lot, uh, and luckily can avoid playing my own stuff out because people only ever ask for one song. Although sometimes people ask for other stuff, weirdly, they'll just ask you for a random tune. You're like, oh my god, how do you even know about that?

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Yeah, let's let's touch on that because I I think it's important to for me, just on a personal level, to get people who may be in that similar frame of mind where they they might not only know what I might do. What are some other tracks of yours that you'd recommend? Even though you said that you you hate your own music. Is there anything else that you'd recommend for people to listen to? It'd be go, do you know what? Like that that's something I'll I'll stand by and I'll recommend to people to listen to. That's that's something that I've made.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

None of it, no. Um so I I struggled so much with original music for the longest time. I've not released, so I asked Chat GPT, was it or is it anthropic? It was one of the AI LMs a while ago. I sort of asked it to analyze my career and where it would have gone wrong as a sort of self-deprecating research experiment into how accurate an AI can be on the face of it. The first thing it said was not very regular release schedule, and I was like, yeah, that sounds about right. So I always struggled making original music. I was constantly chasing that high. Um, I was constantly trying to make the next what I might do, even if I wasn't trying to. I wasn't because I said to myself, I was like, I never I can never copy it. I want to move away from it, I want to make other stuff. I like so many different types of music, so I did so many remixes, and then my my approach with remixes was always I want to do whatever I think in the moment is right for the track. So I never went I've got a sound, I'm gonna stick with it. I just went, Oh, that's that sort of sounds like it should go with this, and then I tried to do it that way. So I'd recommend the Pomelo EP on Moda Black. Yes, that was one that was yeah, it really did quite well. Um, and there was guys like Adam Bear were playing it, and a few other people, like quite surprising people. It was it was getting a lot of players in South America, and again, it was maybe a string that I should have pulled on because maybe that was a a sort of direction music-wise that made sense. I was playing a lot of that type of music at the time, South America and Spain and Italy and things, but I just didn't do it for reasons um that were quite obvious to me anyway, for mental health reasons, really. Yeah, and then yeah, so apart from that, this I was really proud of some remixes, man. Like I did one for Guy Andrews, um, that I remember that's got like a really big baseline. I really like that remix, I still listen to that occasionally. So sometimes I will go back and listen to stuff I've made and think, you know what, that's not actually as bad as I thought. But it's all disjointed. I remember speaking to a journalist once from Manchester, and I'm so sad I can't remember his name. But he said that he could he could hear a similarity between my music, and I I just didn't I didn't hear it, but he said it sort of sounded industrial and it had this uh emotive quality to it. Um so he'd said something, but I just think it was disjointed. So I don't know, I just hit shuffle on Spotify, see what happens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

So tell me um when did things start to quieten down for you? And you you just mentioned mental health there. So was that kind of a trigger behind things starting to kind of peter out and you step taking a bit of a step back from being out there touring and all of that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_03 57:17

Yeah, I think things were probably slowing down a little bit. I think it's one of those chicken and egg scenarios, isn't it, that you don't you don't know if it's slowing down because of that, or you're you know, you're feeling bad because it's slowing down. But I um I didn't realize it for a long time, and I've obviously gone into this a fair bit on on various places. Yeah, and then it really it really hit me at one point, and I had to because uh up until that was a couple of years where I was I was uh probably wasn't playing the best shows. Like I always tried to play the best shows I could. I was getting I I'd go on Twitter afterwards and try and find bad tweets, but try and find people complaining about me just to sort of back up how I was feeling. So it was all getting very toxic, but I didn't realise it at the time. I was just sort of stuck in it and thinking, I wasn't looking at myself, and then it it did all come to a sort of head and I had to take six months off. That came very, very public. Um, I think the Facebook post reached like two million people or something without any I don't know, I obviously wouldn't promote a post like that. I was just basically saying, being honest, this is why I'm gonna have to cancel these shows. Really sorry. I'll rebook them when I feel better. And then I sort of came back to it and found it quite hard occasionally. But as I said, I went from never feeling any sort of I was never worried, like the first time I played amnesia, I was not nervous in the slightest. I was like, yeah, whatever, it's the same, same decks. But I think it came from like having a lack of identity and didn't have a sound, I didn't have a direction, I was just playing all these shows and and not really knowing where I fitted in. Didn't think I should deserve to be there, didn't think I deserved to be where I was and and the career that I was and the people that I was playing with, and then as it starts slipping, and you you know getting less shows, and uh probably as a result of that, you it starts just compounding, yeah. Um and then it you know, after that was like 2016, I think 1516. Then it was all quite positive. You're like you know, building it back up and trying to get back to things and and really enjoying it again and getting some releases out, and then the famous lockdown hits after that, and then yeah, after that it's it's I've done a few things, but it's never really got back going.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

So yeah, yeah. Yeah, that that Facebook post was um yeah, it was it was it was a it was a standout moment because I I don't think there were very many DJs, producers, artists, whatever you want to call them, uh from our worlds, especially who'd who'd been able to come out and be so honest about where they're at. And it's funny, around the the mid-2010s, it felt like there was a bit of a shift towards people being more open with talking about mental health in relation to electronic music culture, rave culture specifically. And yeah, it was it was I'm not surprised that it so many people saw that and connected with it because it it was a very vulnerable thing to do, and I'm sure you know you weren't just consciously like trying to be quote unquote vulnerable as people talk about nowadays, it was something that you just you did because you're that honest kind of person, but I think it did kind of set a benchmark in a way, but and opens that kind of discussion about all of that kind of stuff a bit more because, like I say, not many artists or not that I can remember had been so open about their their situation at that time.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

Yeah, I mean as I said, it was our the only reason why I did the post was because I felt like I had to explain why I was cancelling the shows. There was there was I think there was an Asian Asian leg of the tour in there. There was it was a it was a lot of shows in the six months. Um so I felt bad, and obviously it was it was a big decision, but I never wanted to, and then when I came back, I obviously had a lot of press, but I never wanted to use it to like promote myself in music. I thought that was dis disingenuous, and I I've never been wanting to portray myself as some sort of because I still struggle with it now. I think the last couple of years, the last few years, I've been in a lot better place, but you know, I I lost my best friend last year. Um a couple of years before that. It's it's been a very difficult time, so I don't feel like I'm qualified. This is the whole devil of the podcast, by the way. So I'm sorry to bring the tone down we were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

No, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:54

Yeah, just to touch on it quickly, like uh yeah, I think it was just I was honest about it, and I think I think there is a there is a reluctancy because what I mentioned, I think I mentioned earlier where you build these artists up on a pedestal, um, and you see them as sort of not human, but you see them in a different way. They're they are your idols, you know what I mean. You you don't want your idols to be flawed. I think there's a lot of that people struggle with. And I know when I was a promoter, when I was 19, if I had the choice between two DJs to book and they were both the same price and they were both going to sell the same tickets, I would pick the one who didn't have anxiety and depression. I knew I would have because we wanted to crack on with them at the after party, we wanted them to be a vibe, we wanted them to have have fun. I wouldn't know if I'd I wouldn't know if I had the facilities emotionally to deal with that at the time. I think I would have felt a bit awkward if a man you know 10 years older than me came and was shaking and throwing up and yeah, man, um before a gig, which I was doing quite regularly, not because I didn't as soon as I played, I was fine. It was just a weird bit before I knew I it was just it was completely reflex. It wasn't and it didn't happen all the time, it was just sometimes, and there was no pattern to it, and no matter what I did differently and who it was, it was big shows, small shows, dumb like that. But I think there's that difficult conversation around yes, we should all be really positive and own it, and and everyone should be able to talk about it, which is absolutely true, but we should also acknowledge the fact that people are there to party and they they might not want that association in the dressing room, and there's it's all right. And don't get me wrong, don't want anyone to admit to that if they're a promoter now because it'll ruin you, you know, and it's not the kind of thing you want to admit to. But I think there is there is an undercurrent to that, and I'm I'm not ashamed to say that. I would I would have been in the same boat when I was 19. I would have thought, I don't know if I'm available to to deal with that. I think the the closest we got back then was just you'd heard someone was a bit tough to deal with, you know. Yeah, someone was a bit moody or a bit egotistical and and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

But yeah, and uh, and you know, in some cases it's true because they were an arsehole, but in other cases maybe there was something deeper going on that that was just manifesting on the surface as moodiness or whatever. Uh it's actually uh you just reminded me, I remember when you came to I can't remember what the the event was, I think it was something at Dance Tunnel, and you weren't playing, but you came along, it was some some kind of event. I can't I can't even remember what was going on exactly, but you turned up and you were not in a good mood at all, and uh and you said very clearly, I'm not feeling great right now. And I was like, Oh, come on, and like I was like, what's the matter with you? And then I I sent you a message the next day to apologize because I was like, that was really tone deaf of me to just go, Oh come on, cheer up, and um it really made me check myself, actually, because I think I think I said oh come on, and then I think you said um like I I don't have to be in a in a good mood just because of XYZ, or you said something that really made me think. Yeah, and I took that home with me, and I was like, actually, I don't have the right to tell someone what moods they can be in or not, just because they're they're doing well as a DJ or whatever, you know. It's not it's not up to any of us to tell someone you have to be you have to jolly yourself up because of what your life situation is, whatever's going on internally, that's your truth in that moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

Yeah, yeah, there is that. I mean, I I genuinely can't remember that at all, which obviously I didn't hold it against you. Uh such a bad memory for things, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

Um, but yeah, no, I think it's I think it's one of them. I I think I've always been I've tried to always be open with stuff like that. I understand that the people some people just don't even acknowledge it and can't even get their heads around it, and some people can, and it's difficult to deal with. Like even a lot of my mates who struggle, I don't always know what to say to them, even though I know exactly what it feels like. It's uh just all over the place. It's one of those things. So yeah, that was uh yeah, it's probably the reason why I never made as much music as I should have and blah blah blah. So but yeah, I I think as a result of that, I've still look back on the whole my whole career really fondly. Like I'm so blessed and lucky to be able to do what I do and travel and play the plays that I've played. And I can look look at it really fondly now. You know, if it if it if it all I always said for the last few years, if that was enough, if it stops here and I never get another gig, I've done, you know, I've done so much. It was never a goal, it was never an objective, I never expected it to turn out that way. But even as just the stories, you know, the the places you've been, to be able to travel the world and do what you've done is is always something that you just hold in your heart and hold in your head as being an amazing experience. And then now I guess get to do the odd show whenever I want to and really enjoy it. So yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

So talking about the good times, are there any highlights or memories that really stand out for you as something that you know you you can think back on and go, cool, that was a moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:07

Uh I think that the first time playing space main room, I played in my bare feet. I used to take my shoes off quite a lot when I was DJing because I felt more comfortable. Probably because I learned in my bedroom, and then maybe I was just warm. That used to be a thing. Got my shoes stolen quite a lot. Um but I played in in space main room in bare feet, and it was absolutely packed, and it was a great, you know. I can't really remember the set to be honest, because it was just one of them where you you just uh sort of out of body experience almost. It was bizarre. But then I remember manager like on his knees with a load of kitchen roll because I'd obviously stood in some glass, and my foot was just bleeding everywhere, and you just had to like wipe it off as I was playing, didn't want to want to stop me from doing what I was doing. So, yeah, that was that was one that I always look back on, but just everything, man, even like the small you can play a small party in Edinburgh and then played like small venues in Melbourne, um, and it's a good party's a good party, and to be able to do it all over the world to so many people. And as I said before, meeting people who got into electronic music and are now doing being successful. Um, I've met some people quite recently who are doing very, very well for themselves, like absolutely smashing it, and they were quite vocal in the fact that my my track at least was was very early on in their like inspiration and development. So it's uh it's humbling, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:33

Nice man. So what did that era teach you about yourself, do you think? Uh and about the the music business, because you know you you you went from basically obscurity, but you know, doing stuff locally to having a track that went stratospheric global inspired lots of people, as you say, and and really you know helped to send you all over the world. So I guess on you know, um in some respects you'd you'd learn some stuff about the business while all of that's going on, but then you learn about yourself too because you're just you're growing, you know, you were in your early 20s when all of that stuff kicked off. So yeah, you know, two points there. What did you learn about the business and what did you learn about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:19

I think I learned that the business was a lot bigger and also a lot smaller than you could have ever imagined in some ways, you know. So it reaches and it it's always quite consistent, you know. Wherever you go in the world, the sort of rules are the same, you know. You the promoters act the same, and and there's the same sort of politics in scenes. And as a result, it's also a lot smaller that that people always know each other, and and wherever you go, you're always you're gonna find someone who knows somebody who knows someone that you know, you know what I mean? So it'd be like, Oh, you know him and our cool, and then you you can connect that way. I guess there was a lot of the scene that I didn't like, just personally. I think there's sort of there was a lot of fake people, fake ego, there's a lot of ego, not necessarily from artists sometimes, but there was a lot of ego knocking around. But then again, there was a lot of amazing community, so it was just such a blessing to be a part of, and I think I was happy to be a part of it before it got so commodified, yeah. Whereas now where I see this like uber capitalization of all music, it's not just not just underground house music. Underground house music will always be underground, but that's getting squeezed. That's it's live nation, I guess, isn't it? They're just buying up festivals and venues. You really understand what it's like truly about to be playing music and connecting with people, connecting with just a whole dance floor or a whole festival stage. You really understand what it's actually about, and it's not about money. Um, so I was glad to be around it. And yeah, obviously, don't get me wrong, I got paid very well at the time. Um, but I I feel like it's been commodified to a certain extent now, just from especially outside looking in. And I was just glad to really get to grips with it before that happened. Maybe I'm being naive and it already started by the time I started, but but you know, and then about myself, I think I'd I'd learnt I was maybe more outgoing and more resilient than I thought I was, and then I also learned you know, I I learned I suffered with anxiety and depression, which I didn't know I did. Um I never considered that you know I'd been you know been a bit of an emo as a kid, um and been that sort of angsty teenager, but I never thought that was gonna happen. And as a result, I've been able to be more reflective, and I think especially in recent years, I've been able to look at music a bit more laterally and from a perspective that makes me see it in context, which is not something I did at the time, it was just always podding on to the next thing, the next thing, probably because I didn't really see a future for myself, so it didn't really matter. I wasn't able to step back and go, right, what am I actually doing? What's the plan? You know, where are we going from here? Like, what's the idea? I think even young artists these days, I don't know, but I've seen a few interviews with people and and just speaking to a couple, they seem to have a really good idea of like a brand, you know, their social media, they're everything, they're so connected with stuff, and they look at things with such a perspective of like they're almost like a manager, but they're actually doing the work as the artist as well. Um, and I think that's been forced on them because you have to be the social media, you have to think of the whole package, yeah. So, yeah, I don't know if I could have done that at the time. So I think if I was broke through now, I don't think I could do what these kids are doing personally. I don't know, maybe I figure out.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

And what are you up to now, man? Like uh you sent me some tracks a few months ago, and all of the stuff was sounding great. Have you got some bits and pieces out since then?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:12

Yeah, yeah. So three came out. I should put them out on purpose and soul again. I was gonna start a new label with like a similar name, but then I got chatting with a distributor who just did the originals and just made more sense to just put it out on there. So that came out in September, end of August, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:31

Yeah, I remember you posting on Instagram and stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:35

Yeah, and then since then I mean I've just started a new job, so I've been busy with that. But I've got a lot of stuff I'm working on, some collaborations as well. Um so yeah, it's just gonna be, I think I'm assuming if I can get into the flow of things next year will be the time where I just I just release as regularly as I possibly can. Um again, I'm not doing it with any idea in my head, and I'm I'm certainly don't think it's gonna end up in me doing it as a career again, but I'm gonna just put out what I want to put out, and if I get a few gigs off the back of it and get to see some places, visit some clubs again that I've not played in a while, then I'll just enjoy it and take it one step at a time. So yeah, it's uh just see what happens, really. But it I think I'll always just be myself. Like I'm not I'm gonna try and be consistent this time, trying to put original things out and then just enjoy it, man. I think that's one thing I I think I learnt or not learnt, sorry, I found it very difficult to love a profession and a music scene that very almost killed me. It was very difficult to have a healthy relationship with us with at the time of what I assumed, you know, I was fine before I went to music, and then I've been doing music. It wasn't that, it was it because the gigs were absolutely great. I always loved the music side and and the traveling, but it was very difficult at the time for me to really enjoy it, and as a result, I stopped listening to electronic music because I constantly compare myself. I'd either be too good, you know, I'd either be thinking I'm better than um tracks being released, or I'd be thinking I'm nowhere near as good, and it would really tear me up. So I stopped listening to it. Um, but I'm listening to a bit more now, so I'm I'm enjoying it again. It's just all it's about, innit? You just gotta enjoy it. If you don't try it, what's the point?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:31

Exactly, exactly, man. So my last question this is a question that I ask everybody that's on the podcast. Looking back, what would you say was so special about that time? You know, it's it's really funny. The page has blown up way more than I expected, and the amount of positive engagement is sometimes overwhelming. You know, sometimes if I put a a post up and it's a it's a big tune and a big moment, or it somehow resonates with people in some way, the DMs and the comments and everything is just it's so much, and it it's it's really lovely, and I really enjoy it, but it it still kind of surprises me. The nostalgia is so strong. Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:18

I think I think everyone's got nostalgia for that era, um, for that time of your life. I think that's quite a common thing, isn't it? That whatever you listen to in your early 20s usually ends up being what to with what you listen to for the rest of your life. You always come back to it. So I think there's that element. Then I think there's there's something about that era, especially in the UK, of it was like two or three different genres coming together. It was the sort of American influence of Deep House, there was obviously the Mexican side as well. There was a bit of the garagey side, you know, the sort of bass garage coming involved, and then there was the sort of European abitha sort of side that came into it as well. So I think it was like this melting part of cultures where people felt really comfortable in this scene, no matter where you came from. If you came from bass, you've got big bass lines. If you came from house, you've got the structure and the the drums and the groove and the arrangements of house music. And then if you came from soul and RB, you had a lot of the references there. So I think everyone found a bit of that, those tracks that they identified with and loved. And I think you can always connect to something a bit more if it's something you really resonate with. And then I also think it's probably it's probably a little bit of socioeconomic situation. It's probably a bit of you know, everyone says, like, I I talk to people in work, for example, I work in IT, and they say that the internet used to be so good in like 2008 when there was just less shit, and then there's always that nostalgia for better times, and I think people can't maybe afford to go out as much anymore, and that there isn't those events, and clubs are shutting down, and there's you know doom and gloom all over the world, and and without going into that too much, there's you know, people are struggling, and then you hark back to that time where that was when you were last absolutely free, and you go out on a weekend on a budget of not much and really have a good time. I don't think it's possible. No, you see kids going out now, they took the tickets are 100 quid, yeah. The tax into town's 40 quid, the drinks are 15, and that's just at a warehouse project, you know. There was always those big events back then, but you know, you go to you have a few drinks in a in a pre-drinks, and you go to town and and entries like a fiver or whatever, it was just so much more affordable. So it just made sure that people go out all weekend, yeah. Now you save up all month and you maybe go out once, and that's it. Whereas, as we said at the start, you were out all the time, you know, and people were out pretty much every weekend. Not everyone was getting absolutely destroyed, some people were, but some people were just there to enjoy it, you know. They were there all night and they were enjoying it. So I think there's a probably a mix of all those three, because I definitely feel like it is is very strong in that sort of time. But I think plenty of people have nostalgia for for those kind of years, no matter who you are, because that's that's the best kind of years of your life, isn't it? When you're going out and you don't have those responsibilities, you don't have those concerns and and kids and stuff in your life that you've got to get back for. You don't have bills and you don't have whatever. That's quite a common thing. But I think there's there's extra little sprinkle of factors into what made that time so special, especially in the UK, anyway. And that obviously bled out into Europe a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:52

Yeah, totally agree, man. Totally agree. Well, Ben, that's a really nice place to finish. Uh thank you so much, man. We've been chatting for like an hour and a half and it's flown by us.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:01

So yeah, that's gone well, quick.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:04

I really appreciate your time. Thanks for being so open, and thanks for telling lots more of your story that I actually wasn't aware of. So, yeah, man, it's been a learning experience for me as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:13

My pleasure, man. Um, yeah, and honestly, I'd absolutely love the page. Like, I remember when I first seen it and I was, oh, this is wicked. And then I remember when I first found out it was you doing it.

unknown 1:20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:23

This makes so much sense. Um, but yeah, it's it's amazing to see what you've done with it, and the contents just you know, it's up there, it's it's so well put together and thoughtful, and it's insightful in a way that it's not clickbaity, it's not um it's not trying to get the attention in in the wrong ways, it's just real, honest, and it deeps it dives deep into actually what it meant uh and the actual good stories at the time. And you're also highlighting people who, as you said, didn't get the maybe haven't continued the uh love, but just yeah, enjoying it, man. So keep it. I appreciate it, man. Appreciate it.