The Shillelagh: Reviving Ireland’s Indigenous Martial Arts | Nathan Featherstone

In today’s episode, Nathan Featherstone joins us from Dublin - an elite martial artist, historian, and leader of the global renaissance of the indigenous Irish art of stick fighting.

Many of us grew up with a shillelagh in our homes, viewing it simply as a traditional walking stick or an Irish souvenir. But as Nathan explains, its history is far deeper, more complicated, and entirely fascinating. Driven underground by the 17th-century Penal Laws—which effectively outlawed "being Irish" and banned the ownership of conventional weapons—the shillelagh became a vital tool for self-defense, recreation, and massive "faction fights" at local cattle markets.
Nathan breaks down the physics of the weapon, the two surviving traditional styles (Doyle and Antrim), the role women played in these historical brawls, and how he is working to keep these martial arts alive today through sparring and international workshops. We also discuss his work revitalizing traditional Irish Collar and Elbow wrestling and what to expect at the upcoming Neo-Trad Games near Boston!

⏱️ Episode Timestamps
[00:00:02] - Welcome to The Irish Snug & Guest Introduction
[00:01:01] - Host Tim shares his personal family shillelagh story
[00:02:19] - The Penal Laws: How the shillelagh became Ireland's hidden weapon
[00:03:51] - Stick fighting as recreation and letting off steam
[00:05:06] - Fair days and faction fights: 5,000-person brawls
[00:06:00] - Land clearances, city guilds (Butchers vs. Weavers), and sectarian feuds
[00:07:36] - Peak popularity and how the Great Famine nearly drove the art extinct
[00:08:00] - The social pushback: The GAA and the "saints and scholars" image
[00:09:22] - Tracking folklore through the Dúchas archive
[00:10:46] - Wood types: From outlawed Irish oak to traditional blackthorn
[00:11:21] - The history of "souvenir" shillelaghs and 1960s American tourism
[00:13:35] - The 7 specific types of Irish sticks
[00:14:32] - Preserving traditional Irish Collar and Elbow wrestling
[00:15:33] - The loss of young Irish men across generations of global wars
[00:16:39] - Thanking the Irish diaspora for keeping traditions alive
[00:17:18] - Nathan's martial arts background: MMA, Judo, and starting Ireland's first Sumo school
[00:19:50] - The Rambling Kern: Deconstructing post-colonial stereotypes of Irish history
[00:23:09] - Doyle vs. Antrim: Understanding the two surviving styles of Irish stick fighting
[00:24:39] - The unique mechanics of the shillelagh grip and the "flick" action
[00:25:56] - The historical rules: Women with rock-filled aprons and ground-fighting bans
[00:26:55] - Evaluating historical artwork vs. modern living lineages
[00:31:06] - The rhythm and combat acoustics of stick combinations
[00:33:18] - How to train safely: Padded sticks, fencing masks, and tire drills
[00:35:29] - Self-defense practicality vs. the dangers of turning it into a sport
[00:37:59] - Nathan's global training tours and his goals for students in Ireland
[00:40:31] - Embracing a modern Irish identity free from historical shackles
[00:41:25] - Dismantling anti-Irish drinking stereotypes
[00:43:42] - Thoughts on bringing Irish stick fighting to the Joe Rogan Experience
[00:44:33] - The New England Celtic Games & the upcoming Northeastern Wrestling Championship

🔗 Links & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Nathan’s Platform: Check out historical videos and martial arts demonstrations on Nathan's page, The Rambling Kern.
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ramblingkern
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theramblingkern/
Folklore Archive: Explore the Irish history and folklore archive mentioned by Nathan at http://Dúchas.ie.
Upcoming Events: Get tickets and information for the No Fame Games (expanding from the Highland Games) in Milford, Massachusetts, taking place this June 13th. http://nofamegames.com


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#IrishStickFighting #Shillelagh #IrishCulture #MartialArts #TheRamblingKern

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Irish Snug Podcast. All right, welcome back to the Irish Snug. Before we get started, if you're enjoying these stories and watching on YouTube, please take a second to subscribe and hit the notification bell below so you never miss an episode. You can follow the Irish Snug on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite shows to help us keep these traditions alive. The stories, the music, and the authentic oral traditions of Irish culture. Joining us today from Dublin, right? Yes, Nate. Yeah, joining us today from Dublin is Nathan Featherstone, an elite martial artist and historian who is spearheading a global renaissance of the indigenous Irish art of stick fighting. Nathan, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show today. This year. As a little kid, I remember one in my house. But I always thought that it was like, you know, a cane that came from Ireland. I don't know where that one is. I think my father probably still has that. But this particular one was given to me by my wife's great aunt. And she she was uh her parents are from Ireland, but she gave this to me. She was probably in her 90s, and she came to our house here and she handed this to me. It was a Christmas, and she says she had this real New York Queen's accent. And she says, Oh, Tim Tim, Tim, I want you to have this. It's from Ireland. It's really from Ireland. And the way she said it to me, I was like, I I you know I almost had a tear in my eye. I'm like, I'm keeping this for the rest of my life. I didn't know the history behind these things. So I'm so glad to have you on the show to explain to us that this thing is not just a walking stick, it's a lot more.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Yeah, it's uh it's a really long, like most things in Ireland, it's a really long and really complicated and quite fascinating bit of history. So, like all things, I guess kind of begin at the beginning. Um so obviously Ireland has had a long martial tradition, you know, with the fighting Irish, as many Americans will know. Um but all of this kind of starts, stick fighting especially, um, starts as a result of the events in the 1600s. So um a lot of people aren't aware there's a thing brought in Ireland called the penal laws, which outlawed, for want of a better term, being Irish, uh, you couldn't wear traditional clothing, you couldn't speak the language, you couldn't practice your religion, uh, you couldn't own weapons, which is why Shelys came to be. Um, you couldn't own a horse over a certain size, you couldn't meet in large groups, all these things. Um and these had a massive impact on Irish culture over the centuries because of it. Um lot of the traditions that we have kind of come from the as a result of these, I should say. Um so for a lot of people, the only way that they could own a weapon or anything even remotely resembling a weapon was a shlety. So one of my the many ones I have. Um and you're right, they were they were a walking stick. That's kind of how people got away with it. Um, you know, you couldn't carry a firearm, especially. Um, you couldn't even have gunpowder in your house. So the way a lot of people got around it was having a walking stick. There's a lot of different eras through which Irish stick fighting kind of goes up and down in popularity. Um, and I I'll kind of touch on the reasons why it dies off later, but uh there's a few different kind of reasons as to why it really took off. But the thing I like to touch on that I think a lot of people um don't understand when they when they talk about this or think about this is it was done recreationally for the most part, um like it was done for fun. So people think of like fighting in big groups with sticks as just being absolutely mad, but a lot of indigenous cultures all over the world do it and still do it. Um you know, there's a lot of African tribes that still meet up and and you know fight with sticks for fun.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Beat the hell out of each other for fun, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

And like it so the thing, you know, like I I still meet up with people all around the world and fight with sticks for fun. Um I'm part of a big American organization uh called the Dog Brothers who start in California in the 80s, and essentially that's what they did. They all trained in different things, and we're like, let's kind of meet up and see if the things that we do work. And you know, I wanted to see if Irish League fighting work. You know, you have a lot of people, like-minded young men who just want a way to kind of let off steam. Um, and especially with the penal laws being what they were, you couldn't meet up in groups for you know organized anything, never mind, uh you know, to fight. So, what used to happen with a lot of these people was they'd meet up at fair days, and that's where a lot of the pictures you'll see come from. So, cattle markets were a necessity for the for commerce, like you had to meet up and sell cows and sheep and livestock. Um, so that's where a lot of these events would happen. And as part of it, you know, people didn't want to severe injuries to happen, um, especially death, because at the time, if people died, the police would be called in, and often the police would just call in the military, and then a lot of people would end up getting shot. The the interesting part with the faction fights, the sort of so when you look at artwork, some of these brawls are huge, they're absolutely massive. Um, one of the biggest ones that happened and carried is about 5,000 people took part in. To give you an idea, like these were almost battles that's uh on some scales.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Um and in the cities there were very was it family on family or like individuals on individuals? Like was it family feuds, or what was it that was actually or it was just fun?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

All of the above and and then some. Um so different points in history, there was really different reasons as to why it happened. So uh a big one in the 1830s was um there was an act brought in. So a lot of people don't know. Obviously, we have on Gore to Moore the the Great Hunger, the Great Famine, a lot of people would be familiar with. Um but there was a lot of previous smaller famines that happened before that that were still quite deadly. Um in the 1830s, one happened, so they brought in a uh a law that landlords had to look after their tenants, um, basically like provide a bit of food, make sure that they were they were you know looked after essentially. Um so a lot of landlords found it easier to just take families off the land. Um, same thing happened in Scotland with the island clearances. So a lot of families then just basically teamed up to drive other families off the land so that they could keep their homes, and that's where a lot of faction fights came out the back of that. Um but you would have a real mix of some of these were like young, like groups of young men who kind of make gangs for want of a better term. Um you kind of see the similar in like New York in the 70s, um, groups of young lads who just kind of meet up and and fight and scrap for the fun of it. But in the cities especially, uh it was very different. So in the cities, a lot of the guilds used to meet up. Um so very popular two groups used to constantly fight um just up the road from where I used to live, were the the butchers and the weavers. Um as you can imagine, those two groups got quite violent with the the tools of the trade that they they had. You know, a real mix of different groups doing it, um, and uh you know, at different points as well. There's a bit of a sectarian element to it, obviously Protestant and Catholics depended on the part of the country that they were doing it in. Um and even interestingly, a lot of it continued on in the New World. A lot of these fights continued in uh in America, um especially in New York and up across Canada as well, kind of up and down the eastern seaboard, um, which is where some of these traditions managed to survive as well. The traditions themselves kind of continued on from kind of like really they're kind of continued on the 1700s, reached their peak in the mid-1800s, kind of early 1800s, and obviously with the famine and everything else that happened after that. That really drove a lot to kind of drive them out. The two probably biggest forces for getting rid of Irish stick fighting and its popularity was kind of the government, but more so the the push within conservative Irish like parties at the time, um, because we're really trying to get viewed differently. So obviously the the push was to be viewed as uh what was the quote Evelaire said, like the the land of saints and scholars. Um so meeting up in the field to the fight with sticks was probably not the image that they wanted to create. Um, and interestingly, so did the the GAA, the Gaelic Um Football Association or the Gaelic Athletic Association. Uh they really put a foot down to try to stop it because if you could if you did got were involved in any way in a faction fight, you were not allowed to take part in this.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Um and the bit that I think a lot of people let me uh let me just ask you this. Um uh I did read somewhere along the line that that the actual hurling stick or a hurley, was that is that somehow tied to the original design of what this was?

SPEAKER_02 9:00

This answer, I don't I don't think so. I think the the the hurley actually goes even further back and like almost back into the kind of pre-history near enough. Um what I do think from what we can kind of gather, so that Ireland has, even though we have a lot of history written down, a lot of stuff people just took as as normal. So I I was joking with a friend about this recently. So the if if your viewers or or listeners uh ever want a really interesting bit of Irish history to go look at, there's a resource called Ducas. So after the the famine, the Great Famine in the late 1800s, this resource was set up as a folklore archive. So initially children would go home and write down everything, basically, like uh folk stories, traditions, recipes, you write about the weather, all sorts. Um, but we know in the southwest of the country that people used to fight with two sticks, it was very, very common. Um we didn't have stories of people going to the New World, to South America, to uh Mexico. There's a guy called uh oh what was he called? He's called like a Mexico Paddy or something like that. Um who used to just fight with two sticks and was really well known in the the gangs there, so these stories about him. But we don't know anything about it. They literally just said he fought with two sticks, and that's keeps coming up, which is and we have even an Irish term for it, but we have no idea about it. And I said it kind of like reading a book a book these days and said, Oh, the you know, the man got in his car. In a thousand years you go, What's a car? But everyone knows what a car is, but so a lot of these things that people just kind of took as that's what everyone did. There seems to be a bit of a tradition prior to all this kicking off that a lot of Irish used to actually have um axes and use them as walking sticks. And you kind of see the same in some of the Balkan areas. They have uh focus, I think it's called, uh literally a walking stick with an axe out on it, um that they use for hiking up hills, kind of like a mix between a you know, a rock climbing axe and a big long walking stick. But yeah, as to why it came about, like the the exact kind of traditions, we're not too sure. Some of the really, really early sticks were made of oak, um, but the English navy was primarily made in it from Irish oak, so after a while that was actually outlawed to even cut down an oak tree. Um so now most of them, like the one you have there, is made of blackthorn. You can kind of tell the kind of little lumps and bumps you'll see on them, it's usually the dead giveaway. Um yeah, you can kind of see the little um lumps on those. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

So how many different designs, how many different looks? Because I've seen I also had one which I it I always thought it was more of a souvenir kind of a thing, but it looked more like a hammer.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Yeah, this is a wonderful bit of Irish, Irish American history, actually. Um I love I love the little tale about this. So there's there's two reasons as to why those are. And now you probably have quite a short one, I imagine, maybe like a foot or two foot long.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

So these were made specifically for American tourists in the 1960s. So the interesting thing about it, if you if again look at the stick here, is you see it as that that rounded head.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Um, if you imagine this was cut off, usually off a branch or kind of like the main body of the tree. If we're going this way, you know, you imagine that the branch here, so you cut a big wedge so that if the wood splits at all, you still have enough, you can kind of cut away and still be left with a nice handle. Right. Um, so what would happen was people will come in in the 60s when kind of transatlantic travel opened up, and they would say, Well, I want a stick, and the stick makers, you only cut so many in a year, and obviously you know you're not expecting a load of uh you know, tourists to come in and buy, clear out your shop. So there's a great interview if I can find it, I'll send it on to you after, but uh it was a stick maker in the 60s on Irish television, and he just says, Well, have that one over there, it's not finished, but you can have it. And they just give it to the American tourists and the you know the tourists would say, Well, I can't fit that in a suitcase, it's a you know, three or four foot long stick. So you just cut it in half and go, There you go. Just put the souvenir piece.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

The one that I had, that other one I had was definitely a souvenir too. And I I remember uh and uh have you ever been to Kong and Mayo? Yes, yes, maybe so the um we went in there to the the the at the time uh where they shot the the Quiet Man and uh there was the bar Kohans, uh which was just the facade in the movie. There was there was no bar inside there. There's actually a bar there now, but back probably like 30 years ago when I was there, there wasn't there wasn't even a bar there. It was just a souvenir shop. And that's where I bought this, you know, it was one of those. It was the shorter ones, and it said, you know, Kong on it. You know, I knew it wasn't a real thing, it was just a souvenir. I don't even know if I still have it, but I'm glad I have this, the the long one.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Yeah. So to come back to your original question, um we know, no, I'll I'll get this wrong, but I remember three of them off the top of my head. Um, that there's if I get the number right, I think it's about seven specific types of stick. Um and they're all named, they have specific names in Irish. Uh so a kippine is probably the shortest, it's kind of a foot or under, kind of like a blackjack if you ever go fishing, you know, for for knocking a fish on the head. Um very similar thing. A lot of Irish households still still find them around the place, um, usually a small little cudgel. Um, obviously the Shilleli that we all know. Um, and then the longest would be what's called a wattle, which is about six or seven foot, and that was for driving cattle. So you know, you could reach over one cow kind of if they're going in the wrong field to give them a little tap back in the right direction. Um so we know for sure there was loads of different kind of lengths that were quite popular amongst people, but generally most shilly's were kind of in that three to four foot range, usually about kind of head big or maybe a bit taller.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Okay. Um so um with with the Great Hunger, um, I've read that that that was one of the things that almost made this this thing extinct, correct?

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah, unfortunately, uh a lot of Irish traditions died off around that time. Um so uh another thing that you know I'm I'm part of and part of pushing as well as uh traditional Irish wrestling, so it's a style called Irish collar and elbow wrestling. And it was huge, especially in in North America at one point. It's very much the same thing. Um you kind of had this perfect storm, especially in Ireland of the Great Famine, and then not that long after you had World War One, which a lot of Irish men you know gave their lives in. So a lot of the people who would have been practicing it, young, you know, Irish men forced it would have died off quite rapidly, or moved to the new world and just weren't involved in it anymore. Um so it very quickly you lost a huge generation of people who would have been involved, and obviously the people who were left weren't really too keen on on continuing those traditions.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah. Yeah, uh I just as a side note, you talk about the amount of people that were lost in World War I. Uh it it was all our wars that so many Irish were lost. Uh the Vietnam War, there's a there's an area here in Queens that's it's a very, very strong Irish neighborhood. A lot of Irish would would come to uh Woodside in Queens. Uh there's a couple of pockets of different areas that were very, very Irish throughout the years. And Woodside, Queens, uh there's uh there's a pub there called Donovan's. I we go there all the time. My wife's from Woodside. But the the owner there uh he he once said that more people died in the Vietnam War from the Woodside zip code than any other zip code in the entire country. And those were all Irish people. So you you know this there was a lot of Irish that fought and died for this country. This still from the Civil War, even back into the Revolutionary War. A lot of history there.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Yeah, really two nations that are really intrinsically linked, like, and yeah, you know, I have to I have to really just compliment the likes of yourself, Tim. Like I really have to say a thank you to the Irish diaspora who've done so much hard work to preserve Irish traditions. Um a lot of a lot of the the traditions that we have have been maintained and kept thanks to the the you know our our Irish brethren overseas, um, even Irish dictating. Like the traditions that I teach are more popular abroad than they are at home, like so many things, unfortunately. Um but it's something I've dedicated my whole life to to seeing evolve and grow.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Let's talk about your your background. You're you are uh a martial artist, uh jujitsu, uh MMA, right? Just give us give us a little quick history on on that.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Uh yeah, so the the kind of quick rundown of all of the mad stuff I get up to. Um so yeah, I mean, you know, like most young kids, I did a bit of boxing when I was a small kid, um, and karate when I was really, really young. Um and then kind of around 19, I got really heavily into it. Uh, I competed in uh you know amateur boxing, amateur muay thai, amateur MMA. Um now I primarily teach Irish martial arts, and I got into that around that same time. Um I first learned uh one of the initial styles that I learned about Irish stick fighting when I was about 19 uh or 20. Seven years later, I learned the second style. Um I'm unfortunately the only person who's learned two. Um politics and martial arts is a big thing, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Well, that's what I was gonna ask is how what what what was the trigger that led you down that rabbit hole of of learning the stick fighting?

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah, so I have a bit of a bit of a mad brain for trying different things. Like like you said, I have a judo black belt, a brown belt and a jiu-jitsu. Um I've set up a Ireland's the Republic of Ireland's first ever sumo school. I'm the first person to ever medal for Ireland, the Republic of Ireland in sumo. Um I kind of anything that interests me, I'll go and try it. Um when I was about 16, I got really interested in uh European martial arts because it was kind of taken off. You see it with the fencing, especially like longsword stuff, people might see online. Um so I thought, you know, I've always been a history fan, so I thought surely the Irish had something. Like it doesn't make sense that we wouldn't, with all the talk of you know, Irish martial artists of you know over the past hundreds of years, it's like there's surely something out there. And I stumbled on this, it was a Yahoo forums, you know, there's those email lists you'd send. One person sent an email and you get all these like thousand emails back. And uh I stumbled in there, it was just kind of a who's who of everyone involved with research and actively involved in Irish martial arts, and that's kind of what got me into it. Um, and I then went on to help establish Pima Ireland, which is like the umbrella group for European martial arts in Ireland. And kind of off the back of that, being you know involved in MMA, everything, you know, I I started learning Irish Lick Fight and I was like, I want to see if this works, and that led me on to fight with the Dog Brothers and continuing on with them. Just prior to COVID, I unfortunately broke my wrist very badly, so I had to kind of step away from martial arts for about a year and a half, um, and then got back into it after COVID, and it's been really gung-ho ever since.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

And your this platform that you started, uh The Rambling Kern, tell us about what that's all about and how you came up with that name.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, so that was uh I mean, the whole kind of push behind that was very much like what you're doing here, is I I find this this whole sections of Irish history, how Irish history is usually taught in school. You kind of have might touch a little bit on St. Patrick and kind of stuff way way back then, you know, maybe a bit in the Romans. You might do something on the Normans, and then you usually skip to the War of Independence in 1916. And this is like almost a thousand years in between, it's never really covered. Um, and the more I started to research it, the more interesting it I started to find it was, and the more, especially with YouTube these days, it was the easiest way for me to kind of get the word out about Irish martial arts and what's out there, and I can actually show people that they work because the biggest roadblock I get is it's something that I'm I'm really quite passionate about discussing and kind of destroying the idea of. So it's very much this idea of like post-colonialism in Ireland that where we have this very strange attitude that the things that we have aren't very good. Um that you know, Irish lads stick fighting it was just a bunch of drunks with sticks. And I've had this exact conversation to him where I said to people, you know, France has traditional stick fighting style. Yes, of course. England, yes, Scotland, yes, Italy, yes. Uh Portugal, yes, Ireland, no. But how does that make sense? And like we have all these pictures, we have all these recordings, we have books from English um commentators at the time, even showing techniques and talking about how fascinating it was. There's even a reference to uh one of the commanders of the Battle of Waterloo who says the Irish were beating back the French because they were so skilled with sticks. Like, you know, multiple references throughout the years, like hundreds of years, as to how skilled we were with them. And this idea that it was just Loutsi didn't know what they're doing is just absolutely beyond me. Like um, so it was really my push was to to just destroy that idea. And the the the term cairn comes from the old Irish word uh for ker it's cairn in Irish. Uh, there's a very similar word in in Scottish uh Catherine. It basically just means a troop or a soldier. And my favourite period of Irish history is the 1500s, where there was this kind of real upswing in the Irish and their traditions. Um, and unfortunately, after that in the 1600s, thanks to the big bad man Cramwall, um, you know, the Irish culture was just completely annihilated. And but right around that time, the Kern was just like very you know, if anyone ever wants to go, just you know, um finish the video and then come back. But go have a look at what a Kern looks like. They have this incredible outfit, incredible clothing they used to wear.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Um we're gonna we're gonna include a uh we'll include a um a link to your to your page and everything just way people can see all that stuff too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

But uh yeah, I mean the the the Irish Kern, we're we're kind of renowned all across Europe for being these really amazing skill warriors. So it's just a a name that kind of works. Um I as you see I tend to ramble on a bit.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

This is what my podcast is really trying to do. I try as hard as I can not to make it an interview. I want it more of a conversation, you know, which which it kind of becomes, you know what I mean? That's it's the the Irish snug. We're sitting in a snug and we're you know, we're both sitting. So the so there's two styles of of the fighting that you've learned. You know, what is the difference between these two? Is it from two different areas of Ireland or yeah, so the there's kind of a few major differences.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Um I would say, obviously, I'll give you the very quick rundown as as to what they are. So you have the Doyle style, which is probably the one that has become most uh famous in the recent years, um, probably because it's the most unique looking. They tend to hold their stick kind of in the middle, like so. Um, it looks almost like a quarter staff, if anyone's familiar with that sort of stuff. If you've ever seen Robin Hood, you you know what I'm talking about. So you have the Doyle style, which kind of a quite an interesting roundabout history. So the the the Doyle family moved to Canada from Ireland in the kind of late 1800s, um, and the family just kind of kept the tradition going there, like a lot of, like I said, a lot of the Diaspora's kept traditions alive, they did the same. Um, and then the kind of family opened up a bit in the 80s and 90s and started teaching it a little bit, and over the past few years has kind of exploded and taken off from there. Um, so probably the most obvious thing is just how they hold the stick um and the tradition around it, and then the other is the Antrim style, um, which is probably the one you'll see me use the most in in fighting and sparring stuff. The main reason being the Doyle style really specializes in getting very close to people um and kind of working in there, but obviously I'm a big tall guy with big long arms, so um, Antrim has a lot more tools at range. So that would be the what you will see in a lot of old artwork where they were kind of hold the stick way up over their head, um, and they always the the interesting things that you'll always see in any Irish stick style, regardless of um you know ancient like old pictures or the modern ones, the things that really set them apart, so they're very unique. Because a lot of people will come to me and say, like, well, why like why should I learn this? Why is it different? Why is it unique? Um I kind of jokingly say it's it's in the name. The three most important bits is that it's Irish, um, which means there's very unique things that the Irish did. So obviously it's with a chalet. Um, so you have this thing that's weighted on top, so you can't hold it right down the end. Anyone's ever swung a sledgehammer with one hand, you don't want to hold it right at the end, you'll you'll tear your hand off. Similar idea with this, it's just uncontrollable. So you'd hold about a third of the way up, and the Irish, regardless of of the style, would always have the thumb on the stick. Um, and most of it kind of comes from this interaction between your your pinky and your thumb. You kind of flick the stick forward. If you've ever fly fished, it's a very similar kind of action where you're you're flicking this thing out. Um, the main reason being is all these guys fought in a big group. Um, so the two really important bits there is I'm shoulder to shoulders with my friends, so if I do a big swing, I'm gonna hit my friends in the face, and then they're probably gonna hit me back. But also you swing out almost like you're you're chopping a tree and coming straight back on the same line because you don't want to leave your hand out there. Because if I leave my hand out there, I've I'm not fighting the man in front of me, I'm fighting him and his friends and the guys behind him. And you'll see this in artwork where there's literally guys like two or three deep over each other's shoulders, swinging down on guys, like we literally clambering over each other, um, hitting guys. Obviously, the Irish bit, the stick bit, the stick itself is very unique, um, how it's you know fought with. Most of the stick styles I see around the world, the the the stick is like it's uh in place for something else. So it's in place for a sword or a knife or something. In an Irish stick fighting, knives were banned. You you couldn't use knives if you were so interesting, there's a lot of rules and regulations around how you'd fight in a in a faction fight. Uh women were allowed to take part, for example, you couldn't hit them with a stick, um, you could hit them with an open hand, and they were allowed to fight, but not with a stick. They could fight with uh most commonly was their apron with rocks in it or a sock with rocks in it. There was a lot of artwork of uh men weren't allowed to hit another man who fell to the ground. Women were allowed. So it's a lot of pictures and artwork of lads on the ground and women just knocking them out.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Just touching quickly on the artwork. Um people are recording these images, and you're not sure if they're if it's like a credible authority on how it was how they were drawn, right? Because that that person might not have ever taken part in the actual activity, right? So that was an interesting uh that was an interesting video you had on your on your page. Can you elaborate on that a little?

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Yes, that's that's that can be something that's really tricky when you talk about looking at anything in history, especially Irish related things, because often you'll have people who were there, they might have been there at the time, but especially with pictures, you're drawing from memory, um, most often, and especially at large-scale events, but often these people didn't really have anything to do with Irish stick fighting. They were often wealthy aristocrats who just kind of came and had a look and went, Oh, that was a bit interesting, I'll draw a little sketch about that. Um, so sometimes a lot of the really important details get left out, and some people um who might not have access to coaches who do this stuff kind of read into it a bit too much at times. Um, and other times there's stuff that looks almost over the top and a bit ridiculous, and then you actually get into the styles and see, oh no, that is actually a thing. It it's kind of capturing a very specific moment in time. Um, so the way I always explain it is you know, uh a lot of America views would understand it. If you had like a basketball game, you took like a thousand pictures, like you know, you played the whole game through stills, you'd find some moments where players are doing these absolutely crazy things, but if you see it at real speed, they're only stopped for a brief second. Um very much the same when you you're looking at the you know this kind of artwork of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

So I always say take it with a bit of a pinch of salt, because a lot of these people as well were were drawn Irish people in uh uh Well when you're drawing from when you're drawing from historical documents and things like that, you got to cross-reference the you know you can't just use this image, but you're cross-cross-referencing it with now you like what you're saying with the the Ducas website, right? And and uh cross-referencing it with what what people were saying in the 1930s, uh, and they're that's all stuff that's getting passed down, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Yeah, so like I mean it's it's the beautiful thing of with with Irish Dick Fighting as opposed to a lot of other styles. Thankfully, we do have two surviving styles. You know, so we have the Doyle one, we have the the Antrim style, the other one as you're mentioning, which that one specifically comes from the north of Ireland. Um, and like I said, that's probably the one I use the most in my fighting at Sparring. It's quite interesting in that it's uh the family is is very much still there. Um, like it's direct lineage right the way down from the guy and his family to my teacher and to me. Um but unfortunately the man is involved in politics in the north of Ireland, and obviously, with the very complicated history they have, he doesn't want to be seen doing anything remotely violent, so he's just kind of stepped away and he just said, you know, you guys feel free to have at it, but I was quite a religious man as well, so he says, you know, this is not really for me, but you know, I'd love to see you guys continue this. Um and the thing I always say with with martial arts especially, um, is you know, and having such a wide background in it, the techniques themselves are you know, I always get the thing like, oh, there's only so many ways to to swing a stick or you know, throw a punch or whatever, which uh is true, but how you do it and how you train it most importantly is the important bit, and which kind of comes to that last point of those three things is the fighting. Um so I'm very much I think you should fight and and and fight a lot if you want to get this stuff and really understand what it was about, because you know it's what these guys did for fun, um, you know, and a lot of people are very apprehensive to to spar and fight. Um and I love it.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Well, there's I guess I I don't know if there's a good analogy, but I mean it's all about technique. I mean, I could watch I could rock I could watch uh Rory swing a golf club and I try to mimic him exactly, but his ball is gonna go a lot farther. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Yeah, and like you know, you you could go out to the driving range and and hit a you know hit a 300 yarder, but you know, if you if you're out in the green and and you know you've got to land something on a fairway, like you know, good luck doing the same thing with accuracy, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

So it's is there is there any is there any in in either of the stick fighting, is there any specific um training with the actual sound of hearing the stick? I'm I'm thinking like when they were training with um in the in the old days you watch you just watch it on TV when they're doing the sword fighting and you hear the the clanging of the of the swords. Is there anything with the sticks? I'm I'm thinking in terms of like Irish music and the rhythm of Irish music. So is was the music was there any kind of rhythm with the clanging of the sticks? Is there any anything there?

SPEAKER_02 31:47

It's inadvertently a really great question. Because I like I know I obviously don't have a background in this, but um a lot of people so I you know obviously I'm I'm very passionate about this, and like I've done massive amounts of research. A lot of people like to say, like, oh, you know, there's there's these hidden elements in Irish dancing and stuff, and there might have been at one point, but a lot of modern Irish dancing uh is a modern invention, essentially. Um you kind of take bits of old stuff, so we with that we don't really know. Excuse me, but how I teach Irish thick fighting, um, yes, there is very much a rhythm. Um, and what I would equate it to, which everyone would understand, is uh if you think of combinations in boxing, there's a very distinctive sound that you hear. So, like a one-two, anyone who's ever boxed, even for you know, at their local MCA, will know that that that really distinctive one-two that you hear from uh from a punch. It's very much the same thing when you when you swipe the stick. Um and we have the uh kind of a uh way I teach in my group where uh you can't actually swing a stick more than three times without breaking a rhythm. Um and you can try this in your own time, you can literally get a pool noodle and give it to like a young you know family member and get them to try to hit you. The reason being, you know, you you uh you know you swing once, you swing twice, and then you have to load back up to do a third. So there's always this very distinct rhythm. Um and you can start to build that and feel that and and and learn that when you start to train and spar with people as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

That's interesting. Now, Ken, what about what about practicing like at full speed? Like you know, without getting hurt, like I guess wearing like stuff that's that's the that's the beauty that we have as opposed to you know what what they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

So way back when these guys used to uh they would wear what's called a regency top hat. Um so that's really the style that was popular at the height of this. Uh so the easiest way to explain it, is uh you know the hat the fighting Irish um leprechaun wears? Yeah, that kind of something's like a little bucket hat. That's what most Irish people used to wear at the time. They stuff it full of straw and they put straw up their sleeves so they could protect their arms and their head. Um so that was their padded armour at the time, basically. That's interesting. Now we have the beauty of padded sticks, um, you know, we have fencing masks. Um, so we have kind of levels in my group. Uh we have a thing called no wind. So if you ever swing a stick really fast, you hear that whoosh, um, you know, the first level is don't do that. Um then slowly builds up to that. Uh most of our sparring we use ratan, so I don't use um, I'm gonna show you pop a little tip in there somewhere, um, but we don't use blackthorn. Um main reasons being one, it's incredibly dangerous. Um and two, when it breaks, it usually breaks into a spike. Uh most hardwoods do that, so it's very dangerous, obviously, if we're wrestling. Um the other thing as well that's that's really important when you talk about stick fighting is uh it's very wrestling heavy. Um because the thing I always joke when I talk to people and tell them about it is uh it's it's just it's a walking stick, it's literally designed to be grabbed. Um so you know if you block something, it's right there. Um so it's uh now you can do it very safely. 90% of the the stuff that we do um is you usually doing drills, you learn how to box and stuff. Um I kind of explain that it's like you go into a boxing club, you know, you can do your your pads, you can do your combos. We have a pad that we use, it's like a tire swan in half with two handles on it. So you can hit that thing, you can go hell for the other on that, and yeah, you're you're gonna be completely safe. If you ever want to step up and spar, you can, just like in a boxing club, but you don't have to. And that's kind of how I teach it to people.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Yeah. And but I feel that as a when you're teaching it, is it are you teaching it more as a sport or is it in any way a self-defense?

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Like, because I mean technically very much um self-self-defense, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, because I mean anybody could be you could be walking down the road with with an umbrella, yeah. And if you have you know some kind of uh training with with this kind of thing, you could defend yourself a little bit better.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

100%. Um, I'm very much against any kind of stick-related sport. Um, the main reason being, uh and this is the easiest way to explain it, explain it very fast. If I pick up a walking stick like this, obviously it's a dangerous thing to get hit with, but um a stick, uh I think it's like hammering a nail. If I have the nail here and I do this, it's gonna take me all day to put it in. So I have to wind up and get power into it. Um when you start to do competitions, guys just kind of play this game a tap. And most of the most dangerous things you can do with the stick will be to say hit with the very end, like you're mashing a potato. You know, that will do horrible things to someone. But you're you you really hit the nail on the head. That's why I I fight with it. You know, we the the groups that we meet up with, it's kind of a gentleman's agreement, just don't purchase other too bad. The the the saying is go home, friends at the end of the day. Um, so you know, fight as hard as you're willing to, but you know, that's the most important thing. And I I totally agree. So, like obviously, a lot of American viewers will have access to you know the Second Amendment and all that. Uh we don't have that here. Um there's never been a tradition of owning firearms in Ireland, and a walking stick is realistically the most likely thing you'll ever have close to hand, um, and especially as you get older, um, something that you'll most likely have have nearby. Um and I I this literally is a stick I go hiking with. You know, I go hiking I hiking on the weekends, I bring this thing with me. Um if I'm out with the dog or whatever, I'll bring that with me as well. It's fun and and practical.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Yeah. And practical, that's the right word. Yeah, very practical.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

And the other thing, because this is a rant that you know I'll have to touch on because people always ask, uh they're not heavy. Um now, uh apologies, I don't use Imperial, but I know they're roughly kind of half a pound to three-quarters of a pound is is what a decent shilling weighs. People think these things have to be like a big caveman, you know, tree, tree leg, but or tree trunk, I should say, but they're really not. Um you know, if anyone's America has a lovely oak in it. If you ever had like a an oak uh table or something, you know, even a small leg can be quite dense and very, very tough. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't need these big heavy things.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

You you've been leading this this revival all over all over the world, right? You've been training, you've you've you've trained people all all over the world. How far have you traveled? Where where have where have you gone with this?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Uh well, I mean, what are we? Yesterday I was in Germany. Um this year I've gone to the UK, Germany, America, um, kind of opened down the East Coast, uh, all across Ireland. Um a few more across Ireland.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

And how does it so how does it I ask that question because I want to know how does it feel to be, you know, this is this is like um an art form that that was tucked away in family lore for so many years, and now here you are reviving it. It's got a it's great to be teaching, it's great to be into uh you know a hobby of whatever it is, whether it's martial arts or anything, but there's something more to this because you're actually reviving an ancient uh history here. So how does that make you feel?

SPEAKER_02 39:03

It's so for me, this is like I said, I've been doing this almost my entire adult life, and it's it's been my passion to do this that entire time. Um often I'll go places just you know, if I can get there, I'm happy to go and teach. Like, you know, um that's kind of my goal is to see this grow. And most importantly to me, there's two two major goals I've had since I was a teenager was to prove that these things are effective, you know, that they do work. Because some people look at these things and go, Oh, these are for just Irish lads, but you know, like I said, drunken lads swinging sticks, and it's not, it's incredibly effective in what it is and what it does. Um I've shown that. You know, you'll put in this bar in footage, you'll you'll you'll see us taking taking this as seriously as we can. And it's a really important part of Irish history. Um you know, I I I wanted to show that it was effective, it existed, and I want to see it grow in Ireland, most importantly. Um you know, I've kind of said to people before, I would love to have 10,000 American students, but I'd prefer to have 10 Irish ones because at one point, like when I started teaching here, I was the only person doing it. Um and it was incredibly lonely for want of a better term. There was no one else who wanted to get involved, there's no one else who wanted to do it. And it's gotten popular, it has taken off. Um, I'm very good friends with David Kelly, who I know you've had on. Um we're doing a tour this summer around Ireland um teaching Irish stick fighting. I saw it, sticks in stones, right? Yeah, great, isn't it? It's a great day, it's great. Sells itself. Um we've kind of said that the we're living in a time, um, in my opinion, that is the greatest time to to be Irish. We don't have the shackles of you know the the Empire on us anymore, and we don't have the shackles of the church on us. We can decide what Irish culture is. You know, that we can speak the language, you know, the Changa and the Kyol, you know, the language and the music. I have a I I feel like a real duty and responsibility to share this stuff, which is why, like I said, you know, I find it sad that there's politics within you know the stick fighting worlds that the styles don't work together more. Um my goal is always just I don't care who I teach them to, well, to a degree, you know, we don't want bad, nefarious people involved, but I want I I want to see it out there, I want to see it grow, and I really want to see as many Irish people, as many, especially with the Irish diaspora. There's so you know, my I I went to the east coast of America the first time this year, and there's the absolute warmth and and enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

You you mentioned a few times the the thing with the uh you know the drinking stereotype, which which has always bothered me. And uh it it bothers me so much because it was it was created by design, that that image. That was by design. And it's still it's still in the the minds of so many people, but it's still false. And and it it couldn't have been said better than uh a friend of mine, Dermot, who is he's from Derry, he was on my show. Um, and he said, you know, he was in New York for about 10 years bartending, and he said, Tim, I I never seen more drinking in my life when I went to New York City. People doing shots in your drinkage. I I I never seen anything like that in my life. I don't know what they're talking about with the uh with the Irish. You know, we we only had we didn't have much of a choice in the pubs in Ireland. You had uh, you know, you had maybe two choices of beer and uh uh a a shot of whiskey or something like that. He he was explaining how people are pounding and pounding.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

He says, No, I I I I I totally understand what you're getting at. And it is unfortunately so many stereotypes and and um depictions of the Irish really, really muddy the waters. And uh especially with our traditions. Um you know, you get a lot of stuff where people say, like, oh, you know, that wasn't a thing, you know, oh we didn't hear about that, like that was just you know, city Irish people doing whatever. And it wasn't like you know, it it's a it's a discredit both to the the Irish people who went before us and also to the the nation itself and to and to the traditions, the people who who who kept them going. Um and the people like yourself who who are interested in seeing them revive, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Yeah, I'm I'm very passionate about it. This is this is this is my uh I I love doing this podcast, and I've I've said it before. If I have a hundred listen listeners or a hundred thousand listeners, it to me it it all you need is that one person to listen then and and it's all makes it all the worth it, you know. Uh it's very I'm very passionate about it right now. And you know, I do get over to Ireland a lot, so uh I I love being over there. I got my uh citizenship and stuff like that. So it's congratulations. A lot of a lot of passion involved with this, you know, background and uh I I love it. Um oh, you know what you should really look into is is somehow getting on the Joe Rogan show. Are you familiar with Joe Rogan?

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Uh yeah. I mean, I would love to like I know my myself and David have joked to me at it about it. It'd be great to

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I mean his his half of his guests. I listen to Joe Rogan all the time, and you know, majority of guests are MMA guys, you know. I don't know, I don't know anybody, but hopefully one of your listeners does.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

If one of you does reach out to him for us, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Yeah, it's you'd be a great you'd be a great guest on that.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

But you gotta figure out too his his his podcasts are like two hours long, so you gotta have two hours worth of material.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

You know, I can talk about this for days. Well, there you go. And I meant to say, next time you're in Ireland, come come you should come uh come visit and come train. I'd love to love to buy you a drink.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Oh, I'd love to. Nathan, what's going on in Boston this summer?

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Yeah, so uh a huge shout outs to the the no fame games um in Milford in Boston, just outside Boston, in the uh June 13th. Um you should note this off by heart, but uh what they're doing is is absolutely I can't thank them enough. Um I think it's an absolutely fantastic idea that they've done. They are trying to expand out from the Highland game, so not just uh a Scottish tradition, but also including the Irish traditions, um, making Celtic games. So, like I said with David Joan with the stone lifting, he's done phenomenal work on that. Um, we're having the first official Irish colour and elbow uh northeastern championship. So myself and a uh gentleman from Chicago, uh Tom Higgins, we have set about creating the Irish Colour and Elbo Federation this year. We wanted to see it set up and done right. We're having competitions uh two weeks apart, it's our first two major competitions, so we have one in Boston. If anyone wants to compete, get in touch now. Um spots are settling out, so we really want to get as many people in there as we can. If anyone wants to come and give it a try, please do. Um so we're gonna have the first official competition in over a hundred years in America, um, which is gonna be phenomenal. Uh, they have all sorts of events, obviously all the Highland games that you can expect, even uh traditional Scottish wrestling. I'll be teaching um Irish drink fighting there as well. If you want to come along and have a go at that, um please do. Uh we have a huge range of martial arts, we have obviously various different culture things, music and sports, and stone listening as well if I give that a try. So if anyone's in the area, I really recommend you go and check it out. Um I am so excited to go and do it. Uh the the guys are just wonderful people and I want to see it just I want to see the event explode and take off.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

That'd be great. I'm gonna I'll include the links for that on uh on the notes for the show as well. Superb. Yeah, great. So listen, uh Nathan, it was great talking to you. I I'm really happy we uh got to learn a little bit about the stick fighting, but now I'm I'm even more intrigued. I tell every time I see something get something else on here, I had Molly uh Irish with Molly. Um, you know, now I want to learn the Irish language. You know, I'm trying all these there's only so much I can do though. This I wish there was more hours in the day.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Yeah, I I did a workshop with Molly uh in Irish Australia um only a few weeks ago over in the west of Ireland. So it's uh yeah, it's like I said, it's it's a fantastic time to be alive and be able to be a part of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

So Nathan, great, great having you on the show. I really appreciate it. And uh hopefully I get to see you over the summer in in uh Massachusetts. I'm gonna try and get up there. Uh if not, I'll definitely get in touch with you when I'm when I'm in Dublin next. Yes, mate.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Thank you so much for having me out, Tim.