Shy Dog Diaries
Shy Dog Diaries is a podcast about living with, training, and loving dogs who experience the world with a little extra sensitivity. Created for guardians of shy, anxious, fearful, or reactive dogs, the show blends personal stories, expert insights, and practical guidance rooted in compassion and positive reinforcement.
Inspired by my dog Nessie, each episode explores what it’s really like to support a dog with anxiety — from separation challenges and difficult walks to building confidence, emotional safety, and trust over time. Along the way, I share conversations with trainers, behaviorists, and other dog guardians, plus honest reflections on the slower, gentler path this journey often requires.
Whether your dog hides behind the couch, struggles with big feelings, or surprises you with brave leaps forward, Shy Dog Diaries is here to remind you that you’re not alone — and that every dog’s journey is worth honoring.
Shy Dog Diaries is hosted by Samara Iodice, a guardian learning — imperfectly and patiently — alongside her anxious dog.
Follow the journey on Instagram: @shydogdiaries
For inquiries or guest suggestions: pod@shydogdiaries.com
Shy Dog Diaries
Seeing Canine Anxiety Through a Veterinary Lens with Dr. Karen Sueda
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What if your dog isn’t “difficult” or “stubborn” — but anxious, overwhelmed, and trying their best?
In this episode of Shy Dog Diaries, I sit down with board-certified veterinary behaviorist Dr. Karen Sueda to talk about what’s really going on behind fear-based behaviors in dogs — and how we can truly help them thrive.
Dr. Sueda explains what a veterinary behaviorist does, how anxiety can show up as fear, reactivity, or shutdown, and techniques for helping fearful dogs improve. Together, we explore desensitization and counter-conditioning, trigger stacking, rest days, latent learning, and the often-misunderstood role of behavior medications.
Using my dog Nessie as a real-life example, this conversation offers hope for guardians of fearful and anxious dogs — especially rescue dogs who missed early socialization windows. We talk about why guilt is common but misplaced, why medication is not a failure, and how helping an anxious dog can change both ends of the leash.
If you’ve ever felt alone, judged, or overwhelmed while loving an anxious dog, this episode is for you.
Connect with our guest, Dr Karen Sueda
Website: https://ksvetbehavior.com
Connect with Shy Dog Diaries
Instagram: @shydogdiaries
Email: pod@shydogdiaries.com
Dr. Sueda: It's very hopeful to me that people are, you know. Going from a mindset of this is a bad dog and I need to correct the dog to, this is an anxious dog and I need to help the dog.
Samara [Music Intro]: Ever wonder what's really going on behind your dog's big feelings and how to actually help them feel safe and thrive? Well, you're in the right place. This is Shy Dog Diaries. Hello, friends. Today I'm excited to introduce you to a guest who has played a pivotal
Samara: My journey with my anxious dog, Nessie. Please welcome Dr. Dr. Sueda. Dr. Sueda Is a board certified veterinary behaviorist who founded Los Angeles's first veterinary behavior practice has been helping pets and their people for nearly two decades. In addition to appearances on tv, radio, and podcasts, Dr. Sueda is a frequent lecturer and author contributing to numerous veterinary publications and books, including chapters on canine anxiety in Blackwell's 5-Minute Veterinary Consult: Canine and Feline Behavior. Beyond her clinical work. Dr. Sueda approaches life with deep curiosity, whether she's cooking, crafting, reading, exploring Los Angeles and her home state of Hawaii, traveling with friends and family, or simply sitting and observing the world. Dr. Sueda, welcome to Shy Dog Diaries.
Dr. Sueda: Thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure.
Samara: I am really excited about this. And, uh, today we'll be, of course talking about your work with anxious and fearful dogs. But before we start, can you please just share with our audience what a veterinary behaviorist does, the kinds of animals you help and maybe a, a bird's eye view of the common behavioral issues you treat.
Dr. Sueda: Absolutely. So veterinary behaviorists are the. Animal equivalent of a human psychiatrist. So we go through vet school and then we do a specialty residency program, specifically looking at, um, animal behavior, similar to a, a human psychiatrist going through medical school. And then, um, a residency program as well.
Dr. Sueda: So in that learning, we, um, you know. Get educated about, uh, normal canine and feline and actually all animal species behaviors. So, um, I studied horses, uh, birds, pigs, uh, livestock. So we're actually responsible for, uh, learning about the, the normal and abnormal behaviors of all different animal species. And then of course, um, I chose to do a clinical behavior practice.
Dr. Sueda: So I mainly see dogs and cats. Um, and the types of behaviors that we often see, of course, are anxiety.
Samara: Hm.
Dr. Sueda: Um, but because of anxiety, some dogs and cats will manifest that fear as aggressive, aggressive behavior, or sometimes things like urine marking or destructive behavior. So. Really, it's about looking at, um, how the animal is behaving, but also trying to determine the underlying cause of, of that behavior, whether it's emotional or whether it's actually medical.
Samara: Okay. Wow, that is, that's pretty amazing that you treat all the different animals. It's just fascinating, fascinating work that you do. Let's pivot to our main topic on the work you do with fearful and anxious dogs. And I wanted to kind of start, so like a new case gets dropped onto your, your desk, right, involving a fearful or anxious dog. How do you assess the patient and how do you start building a treatment plan?
Dr. Sueda: I really try to look at it in, in a very holistic way. So because of my veterinary medical training background, it's really important to look at not just. What the beha, the animal is behaving, but also their physical, um. You know, and medical background as well. So first of all, I ask clients to submit not only a, a written behavioral history describing what they're observing with their pet and kind of, um, you know, more details about their environment and their, um, background, um, and, you know, their training history.
Dr. Sueda: But also like have the, um, primary care veterinarian send me records as well. So that way I'm looking at both, you know, the, um, animals. Behavior and experience with their, their pet mom and dad. But also, um, you know, looking at the, you know, the, any physical, I wanna rule out any physical causes for this behavior problem as well.
Dr. Sueda: And I think really trying to combine those two is what sets veterinary behaviorists apart from, from other, um, trainers or behaviorists.
Samara: Okay. And so I know that I had a lot of notes when, um. I came to you maybe sometimes overkill. I don't know. Like do you like as you like as much information as you can get. Right.
Dr. Sueda: Yeah, the more the merrier for that.
Samara: good. 'cause sometimes I thought, oh wow, I'm sending these long emails and I remember I had plotted a separation anxiety.
Dr. Sueda: it was amazing. You provided so much data for Nessie, which is great. And so yeah, you, you're correct. I'd rather have more data than less because oftentimes, um. You know, if we're not given enough information, my, my primary diag, um, way to diagnose problems is through your eyes. What are you seeing and observing?
Dr. Sueda: Because I'm not, I'm not in the home with a pet. So providing data journals, videos, that gives me a way to see your pet through your eyes.
Samara: Wonderful. And so when you get that data, how, um. What do you prioritize? Like what? What factors dictate your approach then? So you kind of come up with a diagnosis, then how do you ease into that treatment plan starting from where the dog is right at that moment?
Dr. Sueda: So sometimes it is difficult even to make the diagnosis. So, you know, we're, um, as veterinarians, we don't have the luxury of asking the pet how they feel. And so all we really are basing, um, you know, a diagnosis on is observations, whether that's observations that I make directly videos, what the owners, how the owners are describing it.
Dr. Sueda: Um, and then we come up with, excuse me, what we call a differential list. So this behavior could be due to. X, Y, and Z possible causes. And then sometimes we do try to treat, um, empirically so we may not be exactly sure why the behavior is occurring, but we try to treat, um. You know, try to try to develop a treatment plan in order to, um, you know, address, address the major concerns and the response to that treatment plan sometimes helps us ultimately form a, a diagnosis.
Dr. Sueda: Um. And the treatment plan itself can involve an array of, of different measures. So whether or not that's, um, you know, behavior modification and training, particularly what we would call desensitization and counter conditioning, um, whether that's medication, whether that's environmental changes, whether that's, um, different tools, um, or training devices, all of those can come into play as, as part of a treatment plan.
Samara: Okay. That actually, that's a great segue because I wanted to find out more about, you know, those patterns you see and how genetics and early development and environment shape the behavior, kind of, I guess nature versus nurture. Um, do you find that any of those dominate. Or make it more difficult to have success or, you know, can you kind of touch upon those three areas?
Samara: 'cause I think those are the three main areas you're looking at in behavior, right? The three main influences, environment, genetics, and um, early development.
Dr. Sueda: So those were probably the, the main three, main three things that we see. But of course, um, there's kind of subcategories and it's never just one of those three. Um, so it's never, or I would say maybe it's very rare that it is purely genetics or purely environment. Um,
Guilt
Dr. Sueda: I have a lot of clients that'll come to me and just say like, oh, I've, I feel guilty because people are telling me I'm a nervous person.
Dr. Sueda: And so it's, it's made my, my dog or cat nervous. And I always try to reassure people that they are not the underlying cause of this, that it takes, you know, multiple inputs to, to create a behavior that's, um, you know, that's. Developing or showing up. And so while you know, genetics might play a role, it doesn't dictate specifically how an animal's gonna behave later on.
Dr. Sueda: Simply like you can have a very early, a poor, um, impoverished puppy hood or kitten hood early on, and that's not gonna make or break how that, that pet behaves later in life. So it's really the interplay of all of those different factors, um, that. Uh, develops the behavior that you're seeing now, and that's why it's really important that, you know, to know too, that there are things that can be done because it's not like this is how your pet is and that's how they're gonna be for the rest of their life.
Dr. Sueda: You know, it's not set in stone at any point in their lives. Um, you know. Pets can learn throughout their entire lives, and so no matter whether they're young or old, you know, behaviors can, can change. Mm-hmm.
Samara: That to me. You know, you said something key there about. You always hear, well, what you put, what's on this side of the leash goes down the end of the leash. And, and uh, you indicated how someone would, would suggest that a person's personality kind of goes into their dog. And, you know, I'm, I'm kind of type A I'm really detail oriented as you saw, but I would, I'd have a lot of people saying, oh, it's your anxiety if you just change the anxiety and, and No, but I will tell you that. Having an anxious dog helped me almost reduce my anxiety because the way that I have to implement the treatment plan. It made me more patient. That was, that was a really big thing. And you know, I'm curious because you said it's not. You know it, there's usually multiple influencers. And I know that and you, and you touched upon that. It doesn't mean the dog's behavior is fixed, that it can't be improved. But I'm really curious about that early socialization window, because I think obviously in Nessie's case she didn't have that. And let's touch upon her case a little bit. Um. How do you feel, because I, I know a lot of people who have this issue, especially with the rescue dogs, when the rescue gets them, they're often from a situation where they didn't get that early socialization window. How do you feel her progress has been despite 'cause I wanna give, uh, viewers hope too. You know? How do, how do you feel? Yeah. How do you feel
Dr. Sueda: Yeah.
Samara: case?
Dr. Sueda: Nessie has made a, a huge amount of progress in no small part thanks to you and your patience and effort with her. Um, so yeah, like early socialization, while it may not make or break it, you know, is an important aspect of it and, you know, the more proper socialization that can happen when, when puppies are younger, uh, obviously the better.
Dr. Sueda: And I think that.
Socialization Misunderstood
Dr. Sueda: Idea of, of socialization is a little bit of a catchall and a little bit misunderstood by maybe the, the general public. So a lot of clients will tell me like, oh, well, you know, we, we got our puppy. And of course, yeah, we, we socialized it. We took the puppy out. We met a whole bunch of people.
Dr. Sueda: We met other dogs. We met, um. You know, we took them to different environments. We went to cafes. Everybody saw our, saw our puppy. And then when I asked the follow-up question, well, how did your puppy do in those situations? They either have a hard time. like, uh, saying how the puppy did, they're like, oh, I, I, I don't know.
Dr. Sueda: We were so focused on just taking them everywhere. Or they'll say like, oh, you know, he was a little bit shy, but you know, the longer we stayed at the cafe and the more people pet him, you know, the calmer he seemed to get, and so. My next question after that is, well, was he showing any signs of fear or anxiety during, during those early stages?
Dr. Sueda: And either they won't necessarily be able to say what those signs were or they'd be like, yeah, he was, he was a little bit shy. He would move away and then he seemed to just, you know, be fine with, with the petting. Um, and I worry about things like that in the sense that that puppy may have actually been fearful in those early, uh.
Dr. Sueda: Periods of life, but it, those early fears weren't necessarily recognized. And so the attempts to do some early socialization may have backfired a little bit instead of habituating or desensitizing the pet to, um, those experience. Those, that puppy may have actually gotten a little bit more scared by being inundated sometimes what we call flooded with those experiences as well.
Dr. Sueda: So, a little bit off tangent, but I just wanted to throw out that, um, socialization needs to occur in a, you know, a positive way where each interaction ends on a very happy, positive note without signs of fear in order for it to be beneficial later in life.
Samara: Actually not even really off tangent because I was gonna ask you could that have been flooding a lot of times because I personally, I think in the beginning I was flooding, um, Nessie and I think they also call it, is trigger stacking.
Dr. Sueda: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Samara: Uh, doing both where I, I was day. Okay. Gotta get the walk in, in the morning.
Samara: And, and, and it was, it was, we were on like a schedule and I referred to myself before as like the drill sergeant here because I was, I thought the more I did it and the, the better schedule we were on, the more progress we were going to have. in fact. And obviously we never even got to a cafe level, right?
Samara: Because her anxiety is such that the, um, the urban anxiety that she kind of has to the outside world. A lot of movement and things like that that just, she's not there. And we've talked about, she may never be there, but the earlier days. when I, when I finally slowed down and said, why don't I try, um, a rest day in between, so a play date, one day, on the rest day we did a little nose work still at the home. And then we had the walk days, right? 'cause the walks. Obviously for her is where she's most fearful and anxious. Um, because by then we were starting to get over the separation anxiety. We were doing a lot better, but we'll get into why we think that may have improved. So I firsthand experienced the. Just lay off her a little bit already, you know? um, think that's so important for people to understand. 'cause I had a lot of guilt in the beginning as well. her, I had her, got her at four and a half months and I kept her indoors for that last round of vaccines except for the backyard. But even I started thinking, well, what if I would've brought her in a stroller? Maybe if I had, you know, this four and a half month old puppy? What if I had pushed her in a stroller everywhere on that? That helps with maybe the last, getting that last round of vaccines. So I had a lot of guilt, probably that two week interval wasn't, yeah.
Dr. Sueda: Probably not. Probably not. And. Again, to, to let you know, your listeners and viewers know too, that guilt is not uncommon. You know, I think the vast majority of the clients that I see and, and the pet parents that I work with, um, experience a lot of that guilt. So, you know, it's, it's just like any parents, right?
Dr. Sueda: You always want the best for your child. And so thinking about, um, you know, what, what could I have done different of, what was it? Is it just that? One extra thing that I could have, should have would've done to have changed all of this. Um, and it's, it's unlikely that that one little thing would've, would've drastically changed anything.
Dr. Sueda: But, um, you know, I wanna assure people that that guilt is very, you know, very understandable, very real. You know, I can't, I always tell clients I can't make you not feel guilty, but please rest assured. That it's unlikely that, that the guilt, um, that you're experiencing, anything that you would've done probably would not have made a huge difference in your pet's behavior.
Samara: That I'm sure that will be very reassuring. 'cause it's, it's hard and I think the human side of it, um. Because it really, it's life changing for a lot of people, living with an anxious or
Dr. Sueda: Mm-hmm.
Samara: but it
Dr. Sueda: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Sueda: life changing in a positive way too, can have both of those sides. Like I said, it made me more patient, so I am, I'd like to learn a little bit more about, and have our, our listeners understand this more if they haven't done this or they are a little confused as to how it works. A lot of the behavior modification approaches revolve around, and you've already alluded to this desensitization and counter conditioning. Can you explain how that works? Maybe at the most basic level? Well, however, whatever level you wanna explain it at, whatever's the best way for someone who might new to that, to understand how that works.
Dr. Sueda: so desensitization is just taking whatever experience situation your dog is, uh, uncomfortable in and breaking it down into little baby steps, and at each of those little baby steps where. Rewarding them and reinforcing just calm, relaxed behavior. So that's what the counter conditioning part is. And sometimes what we're reinforcing is, um, a specific behavior.
Dr. Sueda: So, you know, notice the person across the street or the other dog across the street or the, or the trash truck across the street. And as long as you're able to notice it, but not react, you know, um. In an undesirable way toward it. You know, look back, maybe we were reinforcing, looking back at mom or, you know, um, just being able to sit and take that in.
Dr. Sueda: That's behavior that we're, we're rewarding. And so sometimes reinforcing that with a treat or sometimes with a ball or praise, whatever that dog finds the most desirable in the moment. Um. You know, that's what we're, that's the, the, what we're trying to do is change their underlying emotional response to seeing the scary thing at a level that they can comprehend and, um, remain under threshold for.
Samara: Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I, now there's the other part of this where. Well-intentioned people would say, well, you're not gonna be able to go anywhere without a treat. Like that worry that I'm feeding them too many treats. Or, can you explain a little bit about how, and this, this may be going down a whole nother alley way, but how that eventually doesn't always have to be the case, like how you start. Slowly transitioning so you don't, aren't as dependent on external factors.
Dr. Sueda: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, maybe analogy that I like using is, let's say you're starting a new job and you know, when you're doing a job that you're just learning how to, do you expect a paycheck? You know, regularly and often in order to keep doing that job. And so eventually though, like let's say, you know, you've been at that job for a few years, a few months, your boss says, Hey, I'm really sorry.
Dr. Sueda: I am, I'm gonna be a little bit late on this paycheck. You're like, that's okay, I got it. Like, I trust you now enough to know that that paycheck is gonna be delayed and you're, I, I know you're good for it for another, another week or so. And so that's really what desensitization and, and giving rewards happen is that when you're first learning a job, you know, especially a job for that, that dog that is very difficult.
Dr. Sueda: Like it is very difficult for a dog to say, I am scared of that person across the street. Let me hold it together enough to like notice that person. But trust mom or dad, that I'm gonna look back at them and look to them for guidance. That's, that's a very hard job for a dog to do. And so there needs to be a paycheck in that, whether that paycheck is a treat.
Dr. Sueda: For some dogs, it's a ball, like some for does some dogs, a, a, a squeaky ball, as much higher value than a, than a treat might be. And then over time, though. Once that job becomes easier and that trust is there, then they don't necessarily need that paycheck every single time that behavior occurs. There can be delays or, you know, skips between times.
Dr. Sueda: And so that's how we phase out the, the reinforcers at, at that point.
Samara: So I guess like in Nessie's case, I was giving her a treat for every time she looked back at me. But then eventually I realized, you know, I, I found myself out there some days 'cause she'll follow me out to the trash bins or something. I was out there with no treats. Uh, it could actually be that dramatic after a while where you still bring the treats, but. You definitely do not have to use them for every action or um, scary thing out in the world.
Slot Machine Effect
Dr. Sueda: Absolutely. And going to what we call variable intermittent reinforcement. So I call it the slot machine effect. Like, you know, if you put, um, you know, a, a quarter in and you got a quarter out, every single time that you pull the the lever, you're not gonna start, you're eventually not gonna pull the lever anymore.
Dr. Sueda: It's like, I know what to expect. But every time, if you go to very, if you get variably intermittent reinforced, you just hit the jackpot every so often and you never know when you're gonna hit the jackpot. You're gonna go keep playing, you know you're gonna be pulling that lever. It's why that that lotto built up to over a billion dollars is because no one hit it for so many times that people kept.
Dr. Sueda: Kept playing it. So that's what, that's actually the strongest way to maintain a behavior is once that behavior is learned, once Nessie was following you out to the, to garbage can, you didn't need to give a treat every single time, but maybe giving it once in a while, she's like, oh my gosh, like I got a treat today.
Dr. Sueda: And so she's like, oh, I'm gonna keep going out. 'cause I never know when I'm gonna. You know, get that jackpot or I'm gonna, I'm gonna win the lotto of, maybe it takes 10 times, maybe it takes two times, but I'm gonna keep coming out here 'cause I'm, I might get something.
Samara: Uh, I love that analogy so much. And it is funny 'cause she would focus on my, my pouch or my pocket for the longest time. And then I started seeing. Hey, she's not focusing on
Dr. Sueda: Mm-hmm.
Samara: pocket anymore. She's taking steps towards that, that small intersection that we have without focusing on that. So I, I think it is. That's great. 'cause I really want people to understand that this does not sentence you to a life of not being able to move your dog down the street because you don't have a pocket full of treats. just simply a way. To help them in getting, in on those fears and, um, having a more positive experience.
Dr. Sueda: Yeah, absolutely. And I think for Nessie too, that training was just a bridge to the ultimate goal. So for her, what we needed to work on is just getting her comfortable, being willing to explore, but ultimately the exploration it's. Self became, you know, her reward or the reinforcement for going outside because I think as you discovered, she loves doing scent work and, and exploring and, and searching for things that once she was able to overcome her fear through the training and, you know, the treat rewards and things like that, just being able to sniff now out on those walks.
Dr. Sueda: It's, it's inherent reward. So that training itself, uh, another way to think of it is that we, the treats and the training allowed her to then experience something that she then was able to find rewarding because she wasn't as scared anymore.
Samara: Yes, that that is exactly right. I remember, I think the first time it was almost tears of joy that I cried when she went outside in the evening walking in the front of the house and started sniffing, which I call it organic sniffing instead of sniffing for, you know, treats that I
Dr. Sueda: Hmm.
Samara: surprising her with.
Samara: It was sniffing. And it sounds like the, the. Funniest thing, not to you of course, but to a lot of people who've never had an anxious dog. It just seems so strange. Like really? You were excited that your dog was sniffing the ground? But it was a incredible moment of I knew then. Oh, wow. Yeah, she's moving. She's moving along where we're getting somewhere, you know? Um, I. So the desensitization and counter conditioning is really important. Um, but there's another aspect of it that we haven't touched upon yet is any type of medications and how they fit. 'cause I know that's. That's a large part of why you may go to a veterinary behaviorist. Um, and I've certainly been very open on this podcast that Nessie has, she has been on some medication for both the separation anxiety and also for the training to get her desensitized to the big scary world. So could you go into a little bit of that? 'cause like also wanted, dispel the myths that people may have of those medications as being a crutch or unhealthy, you know.
Behavior Medications
Dr. Sueda: So think of medications, um, when we're using it for behavior, behavior, uh, behavioral reasons, medications are a, another tool in our arsenal. So it's really there as a way to allow the pets anxiety level to be low enough where they're actually able to learn. 'cause as we all know, it's very difficult to learn anything.
Dr. Sueda: When you are, when you are stressed, you know, imagine the, you know, you are going to class and you are stressed out, um, and then you're trying to absorb things and you don't understand it, and then you have a pop quiz. And so if you're experiencing the stress. Um, you're not able to learn very effectively in that environment.
Dr. Sueda: And a lot of times when people come to see me, they've already been to, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4 different trainers. And it may not be that the training that those trainers were recommending was incorrect. It may just be if their dog was not in an emotional or mental. Uh, head space to be able to learn. And so medication allows that pet to, um, have less fear, less anxiety, so that the training itself can, can take a better foothold.
Dr. Sueda: Um, and so again, just a tool, it's not a replacement for the need. For, for proper training and behavior modification, but it may just give a little bit more breathing room for that training to be more effective in a, um. Either in a initial phase or just to help speed up the training. ' cause as you know, Samara, like the, the training itself can be very, it can appear very slow because on a day-to-day basis, you're not making, you know, five steps within one week.
Dr. Sueda: You're making a half step within a week. Um, so sometimes the medication can help speed up that, that process as well.
Samara: Yeah, it definitely, and, and I was. I was really looking at that every day going, oh my gosh, we, we did this, but, we did that and that wasn't good and we did this great thing and, but now we've gone another step backwards and because I was looking at it just micro detailed every day, but one of the things I did notice about the medication was at first, you know, we would, we would need to use it before she went out. To, to, to do some of the desensitization training, even just for a regular walk. But then what I started noticing was there would be times, certain times of the day. Yesterday was one of them where she did not have any situational medication. We were not planning on going on a walk and she. easily said, walked to the gate and said, how about I join you?
Samara: And we put a collar on her and a leash and we were out there investigating and she even crossed the street in the middle of the day, which is not something she would've done two years ago. And so it is hopeful that she didn't really even need the situational medication. Uh, but one of the things that'd be interesting for people to know, 'cause I don't, you know. What is the, the timeframe for medication? Is it sometimes always gonna be needed? Is it, you know, what, how do you kind of consider that and in the long term goals of the patient?
Dr. Sueda: Yeah, absolutely. So the, the timeframe with medications really depends on the individual medication. So there I kind of divide it into kinda two categories. Um, there's medications that you might be giving once or twice a day, and oftentimes those medications might take weeks to sometimes months to see.
Dr. Sueda: Um. You know, uh, the, the peak effect from it, and it's the same thing is, is true with with human medications as well. Um, there's another category which I consider to be faster acting like you were referring to as situational medications. Medications that you might give an hour or two. Prior to the stressful situation, and those we can see effects maybe within, you know, a hour, sometimes as fast as, um, you know, even 30 minutes for some of them.
Dr. Sueda: But typically between about one to two hours that they're on, they they take to be on board and we'll see effects immediately. So within, you know, the first dose, even we can see effects depending on, um, you know, how it's affecting that particular animal.
Samara: Yeah, with, um, with the situational one that we're using for Nessie, it'll be really funny because I'll be sitting at my desk working and then two hours later she comes along. And starts poking at me, and I know, wow. You know, and she's been calm and lovely. She always is, even without the medications. But then it just, it, it, it, it's almost like it inspires her.
Samara: She all of a sudden wants to go be a dog. And I know because, the collar goes right on and we're able to get her out and it's, it is pretty amazing the transformation. And I think. one of the things that you know, my friends say to me is, well, the medication's a crutch. Uh, what would you say to that?
Helping a Dog be a Dog
Dr. Sueda: The goal of medications is again, just to help. Speed up the, um, the training process and teach better coping skills. And the ideal it would be that once the pet learns those better coping skills or just a better emotional response to situations, then we're able to slowly taper off those medications. Um, and for some pets we can get them completely off.
Dr. Sueda: And because they've learned those new skills, um, they're not reliant on the medications. But there are some dogs just like there's some people that. You know, are much. You know, they have a better life, you know, a little bit of better living through pharmacology and if it provides you with a better quality of life with minimal or no, oftentimes no side effects from the medications and allows that pet to, to blossom and thrive and, and be themselves, like you said, for Nessie.
Dr. Sueda: Like, it allows her to just be a dog and not live in a, in a mind space of, of. Fear and anxiety, then, you know, as long as it's safe. Um, I think that it, that's what we all want for, for our, our kids and our our family members, is just to have the best quality of life possible.
Medication is not Failure
Samara: I love that. And to re a reminder to listeners that it's not a failing either. If you decide you and your, you know, veterinarian decide that you wanna keep the animal on long term, that's not a personal failing.
Dr. Sueda: I often hear clients, uh, that will say, oh, I, I understand because I am also on these medications as well. So, you know, and, and, and I, I love hearing that because then they recognize that, again, like you were saying, that it's not. A failure to have to be on these medications. Um, you know, if it's allowing, you know, the pet themselves to, to, you know, be emotionally freer and to have better life experiences, then that's what we would all want.
Samara: Yes. Uh, and Nessie definitely has that. It's like really quite, she's blossomed just like you said. You touched upon the human aspect. You know when, when humans say, oh, I've, I've also been on those medications, and so
Comparing Dog to Human Behavior
Samara: there is this kind of comparison too for people who maybe if you talk about your anxious dog to them or they've. Witnessed your anxious dog. They may say things like, oh, your dog's bipolar, or Your dog is autistic. I, I had someone who met her said, she's a lot of her behaviors are like my autistic child. Can you, can you talk about that a little bit and you know, is that accurate? Is that helpful in any way? What are your thoughts?
Dr. Sueda: So, um, like I can't speak to the, the human aspect of it 'cause I'm not a, a human psychiatrist, but, um, I like when people say that sometimes because I think that they're then. You know, doing their best to empathize with, with the pet and, and the situation, you know, and trying to understand the pet's behavior in the, the framework that they are most familiar with.
Dr. Sueda: So I think it's a lovely way to bridge that, um, you know. Bridge that, that understanding and, and to show a sense of empathy for what's what you're going through. Um, that being said, I, I don't think we necessarily have a lot of equivalence between, um, you know, uh. You know, a, a bipolar person and, you know, we don't necessarily see a bipolar dog per se.
Dr. Sueda: Um, there can be some overlap about, um, you know, certain types of, um, behaviors that we study. We see, and we study in animals as well, and as, as well as people. So for instance, like, um, you know. Canine cognitive dysfunction is sometimes used as a model to study human Alzheimer's disease, or canine Compulsive disorders are sometimes used to understand, um, human compulsive disorders and vice versa.
Dr. Sueda: But, you know, whether a dog is is bipolar or not, I think is, is someone trying to say, oh, your dog may be showing, um. You know, different behaviors at different times that are less predictable than we would expect. Um, and so their, their concept of that they're trying to fit into a human framework. Um, and again, from an empathy standpoint, I think it's beneficial.
Dr. Sueda: I think though, um, it might pigeonhole those dogs' behaviors. Into trying to say, oh, a dog should be like a person. You know, a person's behavior is understandable to me and, and should be predictable. And so a dog's behavior should be predictable to me as well. But, um, that's hard because we're not the same species as the dog.
Dr. Sueda: Whereas for a, a human, a human person who might be bipolar, we might be able to, to more fully understand how that person. Or, or might behave because we are also humans. If, if that makes sense.
Samara: That, that makes total sense and I, when I focus on more the empathy angle, I go, okay. They're really just trying to understand. They're not trying to label or, or be critical, and I think that that's really, I think at first where I had trouble, but then I realized. They're just, my friends wanna understand they care. And if that is the way that's going to help without, like you said, pigeonholing the dog, then, I've, I can accept that. Definitely. I, let's see. So.
Latent Learning
Samara: There is one little thing I wanna throw in at you. I have noticed a very interesting thing. Can you talk at all about latent learning in dogs? Because it seems to me, I have noticed a situation where I try to train her to do something one day, but. Not really getting it, but you step away for a few days and you come back. I could swear that there's like a latent learning thing happening there, like it would in humans. Now that we're talking about kind of the comparison.
Dr. Sueda: So the learning theory in, in dogs or in most species, um, you know, is, is similar to humans in that, you know, just because they're not necessarily. You know, seeming to like be processing in the moment doesn't mean that they're not taking in input or information. And so I'm not sure if, if that's what you mean, where it seems like you, um, maybe are trying to, to teach her a behavior and you're not getting the, what you think would be the expected results.
Dr. Sueda: But then a few days later you're like, oh, she's gotten. We're doing this, and she seems to have made more improvement today than I would've expected had she not learned that first time. I don't know if that's, that's what you mean by,
Samara: That's exactly what I'm talking
Dr. Sueda: okay.
Samara: like if you just go away and let it sink in,
Dr. Sueda: Mm-hmm.
Samara: then all of a sudden you try it a couple days later and it's like, wow.
Dr. Sueda: Yeah. I don't know. Um, you know enough about what the scientific steps for that might be, but. I would expect that, you know, dogs are also observational learners as well, so it may be in that first, you know, that first trial period where you're trying to teach her something that. Maybe there's, there's still input going in.
Dr. Sueda: So when we think about, you know, how, you know, any animal learns, you know, there's the observation phase of that, um, and taking in information. Then there's the processing phase of it, and then the output, um, you know, that acting, acting on. That information. And so even if she's not showing the output, like she's not acting on what she's observed or, or processed, it doesn't mean that the observation and the processing isn't taking place.
Dr. Sueda: And so like you said, there might be that she needs time, just like all of us sometimes need time to just to sit with information before we can act on it. You may that that later learning time may be the result of, of. Her having observed and processed earlier on.
Samara: Okay, that makes sense because I do instructional design work and we often note that that. That's, uh, something that would happen for humans. And I bring it up because I think it's important because a lot of times I just say, don't get frustrated. Just stop. Just stop give it some time to sink in. And these behaviors, again, it's that time, it's, you know, kind of like. Slow brewing in something in an instant pot, you don't get the immediate benefits. But what I have noticed is there is just. The kind of the curve goes up, you just more and more learning gets in the longer we try. And so sometimes I think the easiest thing is to just slow down, maybe sometimes back off.
Samara: And that's why we've integrated those rest days in between. I have found with, um, know, is there any science behind that that these rest days for Nessie seem to do an amazing thing to her ability to recover and to show resilience the next day.
Dr. Sueda: Absolutely.
Trigger Stacking and Rest
Dr. Sueda: So, um, you had mentioned trigger stacking earlier on in, in the, um, the podcast that, you know, sometimes, you know, even minor stressors can add up and so. If we're trying to, it's like having an overscheduled child, so they may enjoy each activity, but you know, over time each of the little, you know, 10% or 5% stressors that happen with each, each of those activities may have a cumulative effect.
Dr. Sueda: And so sometimes you just need. You know, a rest day or a day where you're able to decompress a little bit in order for your, your brain to, um, you know, just kind of, uh, reset, so to speak and be available to learn new things. I think that may be what the equivalent of what you're seeing with Nessie on those rest days where you don't, you don't have to have anything even, you know, what we would call you stress.
Dr. Sueda: So stress that is beneficial. Like, 'cause we all under undergo stress and not all stress is bad. Some stress is beneficial, but even small amounts of stress can, can be additive and just having a, a non-stressful day, um, you know. Allows a lot of, uh, a lot of benefits both emotionally and physically and, and psychologically.
Samara: Okay. That's, that's exactly what I was referring to because now I often tell friends. give them a day off. It doesn't, everything doesn't have to be scheduled. an interesting comparison to children and all the activities that especially they have today, just so many activities.
Hope in Veterinary Behavioral Medicine
Samara: So I we're getting really close to time and I wanted to end on a, a hopeful note. What, you know, what do you think the future is for anxious or fearful dogs? And you can take into perspective individual dog who's on a, on a training plan, a behavioral plan, but also the larger science of, of, um, veterinary medicine and veterinary behavioral medicine in particular. What do you see as hopeful? Um, so people who have these anxious dogs can feel that inspiration for working with their dogs.
Dr. Sueda: Maybe I'll, I'll start with kind of a, um. Like an overview approach of, you know, there's so much more, you know, studies and learning and, and science being developed, um, to, you know, both identify and treat anxious dogs. So, you know, from a, a forest perspective that I think we're identifying fearful dogs earlier.
Dr. Sueda: There's more research being done on how we can, how we can treat them. And that's not just from a, you know, drug or pharmaceutical approach, but also from, you know, a training and, and learning theory and behavior modification approach as well. So I think one, one positive aspect is I think there's more attention being played to, you know.
Dr. Sueda: to fearful dogs generally.
Samara: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Anxious Dog - Not Bad Dog
Dr. Sueda: And then maybe from an individual, you know, the, for the tree in the forest approach is that I think clients are much better educated about it. I think I'm seeing clients that are more intuit. Like intu, like intuiting their, their dog's behavior and or understanding, um, you know, hey, this is not a bad dog.
Dr. Sueda: I think, you know, back 20 years ago, I heard a lot more of like, oh, my dog's a bad dog because he does X, Y, and Z. And now what I'm hearing from clients is I think my dog is really anxious and that's why they're behaving this way. And that is. 99% of the time correct, is that there aren't bad dogs. They're anxious dogs, there's fearful dogs, there's dogs that, um, are mis misunderstood or the communication between the dog and the person involved may not be clear.
Dr. Sueda: And so. Dogs. You know, dogs aren't people and people aren't dogs. And so we have, we're trying to speak two different languages at each other. Um, and so sometimes just that this, that misunderstanding and that mis miscommunication can, can cause some anxiety on both, on both the humans aspect as well as the dog's aspect.
Dr. Sueda: So again, it's very hopeful to me that people are, you know. Going from a mindset of this is a bad dog and I need to correct the dog to, this is an anxious dog and I need to help the dog.
Samara: 100%. And it's, um, when you're, I think for me personally, when I was able to do that. You still see all those beautiful qualities that you have in the dog um, actually I think you see them almost blossom more than I've seen dogs, my other dogs who didn't seem to have these behavioral issues. And that was largely because I was able to say she's anxious and she needs help, and we have to provide a framework for her to get that help. So I think what would be one thing you would like our listeners to take away from this if they were, if they are struggling with an anxious or fearful dog,
Dr. Sueda: The que, the statement I'd like to put out there is you are not alone. That this is a highly prevalent problem. This is not just, you know, you and your dog going through this. This is, you know, the. Thousands, if not, you know, hundreds of thousands of dogs, you know, across, you know, definitely the United States, if not, you know, the world, um, going through exactly what you're going through.
Dr. Sueda: And so you're, um, not alone out there, you're not the cause of your dogs behavior issues that there's help for you. Um, and there's, there's people that, that can help.
Samara: That is. Such a perfect place to wrap up because it ties in exactly with what I'm trying to do with this podcast, right? It's to connect community for people who are struggling and exactly like you said, for them to know they're not alone. that is just a wonderful place to wrap up. Um, thank you so much for joining us, Dr.
Samara: Sueda. But before we go, I'd like you to let our listeners know where to find you.
Dr. Sueda: Absolutely. So you can find me, um, on, uh, our website. It's, uh, K as in Karen, S as in Sam, vet behavior V-E-T-B-E-H-A-V-I-O-R.com. KSvetbehavior.com.
Samara [Music Outro]: Wonderful. And of course I'll put your contact info in the show notes for people to easily find it. And again, thank you Dr. Sueda, and to our listeners. Thanks for listening to Shy Dog Diaries. If you're walking this slower path with your own dog, you're not alone. Follow the journey on Instagram at Shy Dog Diaries. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please follow, share, and leave a review. It really helps other dog lovers find us. us next time for more Tender Tales, expert advice and inspiration for your own dog's transformation.
[Disclaimer] Shy Dog Diaries is for education and entertainment only. It's not a substitute for working with your own trainer, behaviorist, or veterinarian.