Helping Fearful Dogs Build Confidence with Dr. Kelly Lee

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Kelly Lee, founder of Dogkind Training, to talk about what it truly means to support fearful, anxious, and traumatized dogs.

Dr. Lee holds degrees in Zoology, Applied Behavior Analysis, and Ecology & Evolutionary Biology, and she’s an honors graduate of the Academy for Dog Trainers (CTC). But what makes this conversation so powerful isn’t just her credentials — it’s her lived experience with her own deeply fearful dog, Pancake.

We talk about:

• What to do when your dog simply refuses to go on walks
• Why “just push them through it” can backfire
• The power of agency and safe spaces
• How to know if you’re stretching your dog… or overwhelming them
• Why participation isn’t enough (and what to watch for instead)
• How enrichment games build real confidence
• The role of medication — and why it shouldn’t be a last resort
• How to recognize and celebrate tiny victories that are actually huge

If you’re raising a sensitive dog who isn’t a “café dog” — if you’ve questioned yourself, felt overwhelmed, or wondered whether you’re doing it right — this episode will meet you exactly where you are.

Because progress with fearful dogs isn’t flashy.  It’s slow. It’s subtle. And it’s worth celebrating.

Connect with our guest, Dr Kelly Lee

Website: https://www.dogkindtraining.com/
Instagram: @dogkind_training
Facebook: Dogkind LLC
YouTube: @Dogkind

Connect with Shy Dog Diaries

Instagram: @shydogdiaries
Email: pod@shydogdiaries.com

Transcript

Kelly: I think one of the greatest skills I can teach them, and I think that most people end up with pretty quickly is the ability to recognize and celebrate what to us might seem like tiny victories or tiny steps forward, but are actually quite significant for the dog. ​

Ever wonder what's really going on behind your dog's big feelings and how to actually help them feel safe and thrive? Well, you're in the right place. This is Shy Dog Diaries. 

​Samara: Hello friends. Today I'm delighted to introduce you to a guest that I have personally followed on social media for her incredible work with fearful dogs. Learning from her and watching her journey with her own fearful dog Pancake has been deeply inspiring in my own work with my anxious dog Nessie.

Samara: Please welcome Dr. Kelly Lee. Dr. Lee is the owner of dog Kind training and specializes in online training and confidence building for fearful, feral, and traumatized dogs.

Samara: She's an honors graduate of the Academy for Dog Trainers where she earned her certificate in training and counseling, or the CTC. She holds a bachelor's degree in Zoology, a master's degree in Applied Behavior Analysis, and a PhD in ecology and evolutionary biology. Dr. Lee, welcome to Shy Dog Diaries. I'm so glad you're here.

Kelly: Thank you. Thank you for such a lovely welcome.

Samara: Oh, you're so welcome. I wanna just jump right in because you have an extremely interesting educational background. So you've got zoology, ecology, and behavior, and I am really curious, uh, how your background shaped the way you think about dogs, um, and the work you do today with fearful dogs.

Kelly: That's a great question, and it's actually kind of a difficult one to answer. Um, I think a lot of my choices in my education revolved around my love of animals. I just happen to study wild animals, uh, first and as I grew older and started to think about place in the world and what, um, how I was affecting the world and how I wanted to affect the world, what I wanted to contribute for me, I needed something. Slightly more directly applied, uh, to helping people and animals than the research, uh, basic research I had been doing for many

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: And, uh, so for that reason, I went into animal sheltering for several years and eventually, and eventually training, dog training. I think that the evolutionary, uh, biology background does affect the big picture, how I sometimes think of things in the big picture, but the applied behavior analysis work is what actually gets used day to day because it deals with the animal in front of you you're gonna help that animal, not why. dog's ancestors may have done X, Y, Z, um, but why is this dog right now doing what they're doing, which has in large part, related to the current environment or past environment? And then how am I gonna change that so we can change the dog's behavior?

Samara: And I love that because it, it provides a lot of hope where sometimes people like to attribute purely genetics or purely history. Um, so it, it allows people to feel like, well, maybe I can. Make modifications to live with this dog, um, more comfortably for both the dog and the family. I'm really drawn to this 'cause I've heard about it.

Samara: I think it's Jean Donaldson's, um, if I'm right. Academy for Dog Trainers, it's the CTC. And I understand that's a pretty rigorous path, uh, to the training world. Um, and it, it focuses from what I understand, so it's the CTC ca, there's counseling in there. Certificate of training and counseling. Yeah. So that's for the human component, correct.

Kelly: Yes, I mean, there's both, of course, you work on, uh, your mechanics train how to train a dog effectively and writing training plans for the dog. But anyone who's been in dog training for any length of time knows that mostly we're training the human. Um, they're the ones that live with the dog. They're part of the dog's everyday environment.

Kelly: So if you wanna change the dog's behavior every day, then the human needs to change their behavior.

Samara: Yeah, that's ultimately so important.

Kelly: Okay.

Samara: Um, and so as I mentioned already, I discovered your fantastic videos on Instagram, uh, particularly because one day after about six months in with my rescue dog Nessie, who just still really didn't wanna go on a walk and, and I was doing the, the positive reinforcement and, and some days it was good and some days it wasn't.

Samara: But I just, I remember googling. Do other people have problems with dogs who just don't wanna go for a walk? And I found you, that was how I found you. And, uh, I, I think it was specifically you were working with Pancake, your little, I believe it's a chihuahua, um, cute little guy. Would you like to share with the audience how you came to have or adopt Pancake and what it's been like for you personally to live with a fearful or anxious dog?

Samara: And I have to ask, did you name him Pancake? Because he would Pancake and flatten to the floor out of fear.

Kelly: Uh, no, actually the, I believe the shelter staff where he was originally taken and named him Pancake, and I don't know for sure why they did that. Um, but we fostered him for so long that some point we couldn't, we felt we couldn't change his name.

Samara: Okay. And so, yeah, go for it. So you started, did you know he was anxious when you got him, or did you know, you know.

Kelly: yes at, um, at the time I was working, um, as like a behavior. Staff person for a local rescue. the dog foster coordinator let me know that she had this chihuahua mix at her house and she'd had him at her house for at least a few months at that point. And he was showing no social behavior whatsoever toward humans or dogs, and didn't seem to be improving, uh, which is if you have done any amount of fostering, you know, that's not that common. Even the pretty shy or sensitive dogs show indications that they want to be with people and usually warm up quite significantly in the first week or two or three. Uh, Pancake didn't fall in that category at all. And so came to my home for a few day assessment so I could see yes, so I could take a look at him and see, well, what's going on with this dog?

Kelly: And. It became clear very quickly that this dog was in a different category of fearfulness and was nowhere near adoptable.

Samara: and so I decided, okay, we're going to keep him here where I can work with him and see how he progresses over the next few weeks or months.

Samara: And bless your heart because boy did he land in a great place. And I, uh, I had told you earlier that Nessie, because I didn't know this about Pancake, at least I knew Nessie was very friendly towards humans. And she didn't show any aggression or anything like that, which is something I knew I wasn't gonna be cut out for.

Samara: But I knew early on I, oh, and I was fostering her 'cause I had lost my senior dogs just a few weeks before, a few weeks apart. Oh. It was brutal. And I thought, I'm just gonna foster. And I went to a, this herding dog rescue and I come home with a pointer lab mix because I just, she was just so lovely and I knew within days, I knew within days and every time I talked to the rescue they'd say, well, we can bring her back.

Samara: And uh, but I couldn't. I thought, you know, I work from home. The separation anxiety component, I think we can get her past that. But it was always that feeling like I just can't let her go through another cycle of living in someone's home. And so I can't even imagine what it would've been like to have a dog who is kind of fearful of humans that that's really tough.

Samara: And not that she was so outgoing to every human. She's very cautious of every human still. But, um, yeah, it, it's just her fear is just to the unknown, the everyday unknown. Even yesterday she jumped in the house 'cause something fell and I just think two years, two and a half years have we gotten beyond that yet.

Samara: But I know it's her, I'm, I'm learning to accept that about her. So you had Pancake and did you ever feel, because you're um, a behavior consultant, how did you progress through that, that journey with him?

Fostering Patience

Kelly: Well, I did. It was a learning curve for me. I had never fostered a dog that was that fearful and that seemingly indifferent to social, uh, motivations. You know, he had, like I said, he had no interest. at all.

Samara: Hm.

Kelly: Um, and so took some trial and error to find even just a configuration where a space I could set up for him to live where he wasn't constantly cowering or, you know, panicking and trying to hide, um, by essentially making the whole space a big comfy hiding place with of retreat options and visual barriers, uh, between him and anyone else in the house. Um, then I did the usual thing I would do with the sensitive dog, which is give them, you know, space, be very patient, make sure predicted good things, you know, I come into the room, drop really good food, go away. Um, but he didn't respond in the way that, um, past all my many past fosters had. Responded. he didn't start to up a little when I came in or eat the food sooner. He would be like, Nope, I'm hiding here until you are gone and maybe I'll wait until you're gone for an hour and then I'll come out and get this food. So, it was pretty slow

Samara: Yeah.

Kelly: and, um, eventually with very careful training and I did get, um, a friend who is a veterinarian to come in and look at him so she could prescribe anti-anxiety medication almost immediately.

Samara: Great.

Kelly: we made some steps in that first year. Um, I think our big milestones in the first year were he would eat with me in the room if I weren't looking at him. Um, eventually he would take a treat from my hand and he got excited when I came in at meal times, so he would bounce

Samara: Okay.

Kelly: his tail. Um, I still had to be pretty careful about how I looked at him removed

Samara: Hmm.

Kelly: You know, scare him. But had a good little life in his safe space. He had a lot of toys. He started playing with toys. Um, he had a lot of nesting materials. That was another favorite activity. So at the end of the first year, thought, well, I basically have a wild animal and I'll just give him the best life I can.

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: never going to be, you know, like a companion animal or what you would think of as a pet dog. you know, I'll learn to get more creative with enrichment and of course, keep trying to, you know, give him more options to expand his world. But I'm not gonna expect that, um, he's suddenly gonna become, you know, a cuddly dog. So that was the first, the first year, and we were interrupted by COVID a bit. Um. Where we were separated and he was staying. We didn't wanna move him. So he was staying, uh, with my mother-in-law, in the home that, in the space he was already used to. And of course we kept

Samara: Okay.

Kelly: know if you remember that first we kept thinking like, it'll just be temporary.

Samara: Right.

Kelly: go back to normal. Yeah. so eventually it became clear that the, okay, this is not gonna end anytime soon. And so he decided to take the plunge and move him up, up here to the mountains where we were living full-time. And that coincided with two, um, two sort of occurrences that I think helped make a big, um, helped to make breakthroughs. One is that the vet prescribed. A different medication class than we had ever tried for the car ride and said, keep giving it to him for a few days, at least after you get up there. 'cause it's gonna really be traumatic for him this move. Um, and I noticed that, wow, this is, um, I have never seen him this relaxed. Uh, so we ended up staying with not that exact drug, but that class of drugs for a while for him. the other I think possibly is just, um, the change in scenery. So, you know, behavior is determined by the environment and we had basically picked him up and plopped him down in a totally brand new environment. any mistakes or scary stuff that had happened to him in that first year, maybe had less of a hold on him in the sense that he was now, he was not in that environment where those things happened. And once we were up here, he started to make fairly rapid progress and I don't know if it was the location, the medication change or both. So that was, that's basically our first year and really two years, I guess. Yeah.

Samara: Okay. And. I mean, 'cause what I'm hearing here is really in the beginning, the two major things you gave him agency so that he had a choice. Always an out, and that was important. And then the other thing is you lowered your expectations from what you would normally have. And that's, that's a big thing. And then, and I too have, uh, after many months of not having a lot of success, I, uh, contacted the veterinary behaviorist and

Samara: the medications were amazing for her. But not without the training and not without, you know, so they are, uh, hand in hand. And, and that is just, I mean, it's a beautiful story to know that you hung in and, and just kept going with him, and were able to just say, well, I'm gonna give him the best life I can.

Samara: And I think that's where I was with Nessie. Isn't it even better when you start seeing them kind of blossom despite what you had your lowered expectations had been, and now you still live up in the mountains, right? And he, I see him enjoying walks with your other dogs, and that makes my heart sing.

Samara: Seeing that, you know, as I, as I tell my friends and veterinary behaviorist, Nessie is never gonna be a cafe dog. That's fine. But if she can enjoy the outdoors and be around people that she loves, that's half the battle.

Kelly: Yeah.

Mislabeling & Misunderstandings

Samara: something I notice, and I think this is where a lot of people may have trouble in the beginning.

Samara: With their dogs when they have an, an anxious dog or a fearful dog, is the dog is misunderstood or mislabeled. So sometimes they're labeled as stubborn or needing more structure or discipline. Um, that's because you're not being a leader. Uh, or you've gotta just thrust them into the environment and, and let them handle it.

Samara: You know, you're, you're coddling them too much. Uh, but from your perspective, and trust me, I've done ev I tried everything. I thought, well, maybe they're right. Maybe I'm not putting 'em out in the environment enough. Right. You know, you start like doubting what you're trying to do, but

Kelly: No.

Samara: from your perspective, why do you think that those misunderstandings happen and what do you wish people would notice sooner?

Kelly: I, I think it is, uh, tightly tied to our misunderstandings about how children learn and how humans learn. It's not, we're not so far removed at all from you know, I idea that if you spare the rod, you spoil the child. Um, and there's still plenty of kids these days living, you know, being raised that way. So I think that our idea of how behavior gets shaped and changed unless you are a behavior scientist comes from our personal experiences. Um, in our own childhoods children, if we have them, um, anecdotal things that seem to work or not work with our own pets. What, um, one thing that I find makes the biggest difference for my students? Well, there are a couple things. One is we do a lot, a lot of observation work body language work, and we do it with video so that you can

Samara: Right

Kelly: it again. can look at it, another student can look at it. People catch things that, you know, you didn't see in real time, which is really normal. Um, and suddenly they're like, oh, wow, I didn't realize that she's nervous so much of the time.

Samara: Hmm.

Kelly: like, yeah, because to you this is kind of what she looks like. Right? and it's only when you start to deliberately take time to observe and analyze from the point of view of, um, of body language and behavior that either we, we are fairly certain, you know, are related to if you're in anxiety or we, we think are related if you're in anxiety. Uh, and the other piece is learning about how behavior changes and you do something like, uh, quote unquote throw your dog in the deep end, right. To them get used to it.

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: none of that, nothing in that statement I just said, uh, is behavioral in nature. Those are all labels and kind of human constructs. So we do lessons on what happens when. Your dog wants to retreat and you don't let them, or you, you know, I'm doing, I'm teaching the walk class right now, the class for dogs, afraid of walks. And one thing we talk about is, um, what happens if you walk to the door and your dog doesn't wanna go out and you pull them out, or your dog goes out and they're scared and you shut the door behind them so they can't retreat. And behaviorally what we wanna know what behaviors could be being reinforced or punished. And if it was an aversive experience for them to get pulled through the front door or have that door closed behind them, you may well have punished the behaviors of approaching the front door, standing still to have a leash put on

Samara: Right.

Kelly: approaching you.

Kelly: I mean, there's like so much that can go wrong in that situation. Um, and. You can also accidentally reinforce behaviors you don't like. Like you go out there and your dog's really scared and you're waiting for them to get used to it, and then they really freak out and start clawing at the door or urinating.

Kelly: And then you're like, oh, okay, let's go back inside. You may be also negatively reinforcing those escape type behaviors. And don't get me wrong, if your dog is doing that, please go back inside. You shouldn't no, I'm just gonna stay out here. 'cause I don't wanna reinforce these behaviors

Samara: Right.

Kelly: is using to try to get to safety. what that should tell you is that I shouldn't put my dog in this situation because one, they're terrified, right? It's not But also chances are I'm gonna punish stuff I want and reinforce stuff I don't want. And so that can also be a really helpful reminder to people that behavior isn't some amorphous thing that arises out of the vibes that your dog gets from you.

Kelly: Like, are you confident in a leader or, you know, are you coddling or whatever. It's directly a product of what comes before behavior and the kind of consequences that come after behavior.

Samara: That all makes so much sense. And you know, I had a situation where I left Nessie with. I think a well-intentioned dog sitter who was also supposedly training to be, um, a positive reinforcement training trainer. And she had said to me, 'cause there was an intersection near my house, just in the neighborhood, just a four-way stop intersection.

Samara: But Nessie doesn't wanna cross the intersection, especially in those early days. And once we got her on a specific medication, it was a little easier to get that training in. But she said to me, I can have her walking across that intersection in no time. And I said, no, I'm hiring you as a dog sitter because she, she has separation anxiety and I need you to stay put with her for the two hours you're gonna be with her.

Samara: And she said, okay. And then when I got home she said, you are gonna be so amazed. I got her to cross that intersection eight times.

Samara: And uh, the look on my face was just like, what you saw now. And she said, I think I might have. Uh, broken your trust and I said, you've absolutely broken my trust. And, and I can say to my audience that getting her across that intersection after that took seven more months after that. We had already made it.

Samara: It is a recipe for disaster when you push a dog. And so I really encourage people not to do that. And, and when people say to me, you're coddling her, I say, well, I'll, I'll raise my dog the way I want to raise her and, and what's in her best interest. And it's one of the reasons I'm really glad I kept her because I think she may not have blossomed at all in another household.

Samara: And, and she might not have been abused, of course, but she just may not have ever blossomed or thrived. So, um, I.

Kelly: that's exa, that's a great example of that exact situation. I mean, most of our dogs we're quite a bit stronger than, of course we can get them. We can get them to do things. But if we want them to do it happily, willingly, and happily, and to continue doing it and to not have it become more and more of a fight, then we wanna take a different approach.

Where Do You Start?

Samara: Exactly. Exactly. And and that's a great segue into, uh, my next question because you know what I was gonna say is dogs like Nessie and Pancake who have fear in everyday situations, right? We're talking walks, intersections, new environments or unfamiliar things. How do you decide where to start and what to prioritize in a situation like that

Kelly: You mean like with training

Samara: just so much going on?

Kelly: so much to train?

Samara: Yeah.

Kelly: Um, well, there are a couple ways to approach it. I guess one way might be, um, so Pancake also had separation anxiety. Once he decided he'd liked me, he decided he never wanted me to leave. And so for me, there was a, a component of what will make this more livable. Um, and so him being able to either go on walks or ride in a pack. So that I could take my other dogs out, who at the time were still relatively, well they were still seniors, but young senior Huskies, so they really wanted their, um, daily hikes was from, from my perspective, um, a high, a high priority, but depends where you're starting out.

Kelly: So I couldn't even think about that until Pancake would, um, happily approach me if I was sitting on the floor, um, and not flinch or, you know, dart away if I moved in a certain way or, um, or picked up a item like a leash. So you really have to start with, and this is something that I think another piece I try really hard to impart to my students because it will, it's so helpful to make. It helps you make progress with your dog. Also be sort of more at peace with the process yourself, that we all have goals, right? When we go into training sessions, and we have the goal for a training session and we have the longer term goal that we're trying to achieve. Maybe it's goal for a walk. but your dog can do today might be more than they could do yesterday. It might be less than they could do yesterday. Um, and it's easy to get kind of discouraged if they're having, if today, you know, yesterday they could go out on the porch and today they won't

Samara: Right.

Kelly: the threshold. Um, and it feels like I'm not making progress if when that happens, people say, I say, okay, well, the most important thing is that sort of the class of behavior, the general group of behaviors of working with you. Are being positively reinforced your dog, and that your dog is having a good experience. You're not, you're just asking, you're just having a conversation in a way. Like, Hey, how do you feel about the door today?

Samara: I love that.

Kelly: Okay, that's cool. Let's, you know, let's play this game over here now. Do you wanna come a little closer? Great. Have a treat. But I'm not gonna keep trying. This is where we all, we all do this. Um, because the dog could do it yesterday. Uh, we're tempted to be like, come on, just a little farther, a little farther, a little more. Um, and now the dog is like, this isn't like, as fun anymore working with you. it's the same kind of thing, even though it's not as, maybe obviously aversive in our minds as dragging a dog where they don't wanna go. But trying to even lure with treats. Um, or, you know, from their point of view, potentially a pressuring, pressuring them

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: They're like, I want the treat, but I'm kind of conflicted. Um, that can punish the behavior of engaging with you in a training session, whereas if you just let them

Samara: Yeah.

Kelly: which is real, the, when it comes down to it, that's the real question.

Kelly: What do you prioritize or what do you work on? Or where do you start? You, you don't decide where you start. The dog decides where you start. So you say, Hey, what do you wanna do? say, this is great. Oh, and this is not great. Okay, we'll do what's great. And then maybe in a few minutes I'll say, now, do you think you wanna try this? And if not, I'm not going to, you know, pressuring you to do it. We'll just go back to doing something that today is doable happily doable, not just like barely doable.

Samara: Oh gosh. You know, that is so right. Just. The dog dictates absolutely 100%. And I learned that the hard way for sure. I didn't realize how easy. Yeah, you, you do, right? They, they train you that because I had really easy dogs prior. I had all herding dogs, cattle dogs, border collies, and

Kelly: work. Yeah.

Samara: they loved to work. And just the thought of, you know, they would be forcing me to go to walk on walks some days, right?

Samara: As a time is a time. And this one was like, uh, no thank you. Not quite. But interestingly, she now has a certain time of day where she stands by the door and I'll say, do you wanna go for a walk? And she sits really upright. Lets me put the collar on the leash and we go out now her walk and it's, and it's in the evening when it's a little quieter, her walk mind you is just a block up and down and across.

Samara: And that is enough. She gets the out. Indoor environment. I get a little bit of the outdoor stimulation with her, and that is without any, uh, situational meds. Her evening one, she's choosing to do that on her own. And again, it goes back to agency and daytime is a whole different story, but evening she goes right out and it, and it's just lovely.

Samara: Um,

Kelly: Congrats. That's a, that's a huge step.

Samara: thank you, thank you. But it would not have happened if I wouldn't, if I was forcing it. Like you said, let let the dog dictate.

Puzzles, Sniffing, and Games - Oh My!

Samara: So you put a lot of emphasis both on your website, on your YouTube channel, on puzzles, sniffing, and games. And I'd like you to explain a little bit about why those activities are super effective for shy or fearful dogs.

Kelly: Hmm, well, um, sniffing games, really any puzzles, but sniffing games particularly nice because they don't require human interaction. And many of my clients dogs are afraid of them. So if we

Samara: Oh.

Kelly: them enrichment and also encourage and reinforce behaviors of moving around, which, you know, a lot of these dogs are hunkered down in a crate or in a corner under a bed. Um. Then we need to find ways to make moving around fun and rewarding for them. So it can be a really great sniffing games or soft quiet toys like, you know, snuffle mats or something, um, carefully because it's still quite possible to pressure a dog, um, by placing toys or treats too ambitiously, like too far from their, whatever, their safe place or their hiding places.

Samara: Okay. Yeah.

Kelly: but these are ways to get behaviors going that will eventually you can build on to provide, give the dog, you know, a bigger world to interact with. Um, another thing I like about Easy Enrichment games, including sniffing, is that, um, one way to think about. Our job, what is our job with these dogs? If we want them to be, if we

Samara: she is.

Kelly: to be like, Hey guys, I'm not sure if you knew was back here, stormy. But if we want these dogs to be, um, become happier and have more skills, um, and ideally not just skills to keep themselves like alive and safe, which you could think of as escape and avoidance type behaviors, right? Avoiding danger. We want them to have skills for making good stuff happen for them. Um, then we need to set up the environment in a way that means that lots of things that they try and sometimes almost anything, they try results in positive reinforcement. So they're successful over and over. They're winning the game over and over again. And that gives you, as you slowly build up this foundation, this learning history of. I can use these behaviors to get good things. Suddenly you have a dog who is willing to try more things. You know, they're like, oh, well, as long as they can use their behavior to get good things.

Kelly: And if they get spooked, they can just go back, go back to their hiding place, come out when they're ready again. Um, so this is, these are reasons why I really like self easy, self-directed, um, games and puzzles. It can be done, they can be done indoors, they can be done independent of humans. if you've got a dog who will hide, if there's anyone in the room with them, they can still play these games.

Kelly: Just set it up and go away. Um, and it's a way to get lots of good stuff happening for them, if you can't sit down and do a training session with them, like in close proximity. Um, and then for dogs who are a little farther along in their journey, so maybe they aren't afraid of their humans anymore. A lot of those games can be transferred, can be generalized, um, to different, you know, different locations, different environments, eventually more novel settings. Um, and they can help your dog as long as you've laid a good foundation that, oh, that, that cool, fun game that I am super good at and win constantly at, at home also works here in this other place. and so that you can get behaviors that otherwise, um, just took your dog to a new place and didn't have any familiar, uh, cues or clues to them about what am I supposed to do here how do I keep myself safe or is like there, is there good stuff here? Well, if you have the game set up for them. Say some, um, I use treat

Samara: Yeah.

Kelly: like coasters, but you can do boxes if your dog like boxes for sniffing games. It's a familiar stimulus that you can bring into less familiar settings, and it, it kind of facilitates your dog. trying out oh, the familiar behaviors to get good stuff in a new location rather than just being like, oh my God, everything's different. Is this bad? Like, should I hide? You know, and just worrying.

Samara: All right. Well this is interesting because you may have just helped me solve my, my next, um, concern with Nessie. I, okay. So sniffing for her has been the game nose work. She was meant to do nose work 

Samara: So I got these treat launchers with the camera, kind of like the Furbos or whatever I think they're called.

Samara: I can't remember what they're called. Um, but I got just some generic ones on Amazon and I've put 'em in every room. And originally it was to get her more comfortable going out in the backyard by herself when I'm not here, so she doesn't sit in front of the window, which isn't an anxious behavior for her.

Samara: She, she planned, she probably just went out there right now to go lay in the window and watch the world. She'd rather watch it at a, a distance. But originally I got him so that she'd go out her doggy door and maybe pop her head out every now and then. But then what I found was it works really well for distracting her from the Roomba when she's inside.

Samara: Yeah. And then I made a really elaborate one last week or a couple weeks ago, and I call it Snuffleville. So what I do is I throw all her stuffed toys all over the living room. I put a snuffle mat and I put weave poles and they're wobbly ones. And um, 'cause they're just like little portable ones that wobble.

Samara: And she now I'll, I'll do that while I'm having breakfast and running the Roomba in the other room. And she weaves in and out of those wobble, but she's not even afraid of the poles moving anymore now, even though, and she's getting the treat. So I'm launching the tree and I'm getting the camera and it is such a fun activity that I came up with.

Samara: But what I hadn't thought about was, yeah, the generalist, the dogs don't generalize well. And my next goal for her is to try to take her overnight somewhere. With a friend, 'cause I'll probably never be able to leave her with the separation anxiety, but just a one night overnight. And I thought, oh gosh, she's gonna be afraid of the new environment even if I don't leave her in there.

Samara: But I wonder if I bring a treat dispenser and her Snuffleville set up, you know?

Kelly: could definitely try it. You might wanna see if you can get away, if there are any in-between steps. Um, you can think of like she can do it in the house with the snuffle mat, but can she do it? I don't know if you have a yard, can she do it in the yard or is there any other, other locations where she's not as maybe relaxed as at home, but more that

Samara: But not over the top. Yeah, but not too over the right. It's that pushing that I was gonna say on a boat with a goat on a, on a boat, you know? But, um. But that's right. I don't wanna push her. And you, you, you could very be, well be right. That, that might be just, so maybe a friend's house where she's a little more acclimated.

Samara: Uh, yeah. Interesting.

Kelly: you know,

Samara: Just bring a snuffle out.

Kelly: yeah, just, it helps, me, most of the time. Um, so I like snuffle mats as a generalization tool, um, and as a quote unquote tree target, which really, by which I mean a generalization tool that's a visual cue. Um, we do use just for portability, I'm seeing if I have, oh, I do have one right here. sometimes use these little like silicone, um,

Samara: Oh.

Kelly: um, I, I'll use 'em in sniffing games for dogs. So the treats are just on there. They're not hidden, so it's very obvious. Um, and then they, they become part of the cue to the dog as you Can you hear that?

Samara: Yeah. Is

Samara: Oh, I see a sweet little face.

Kelly: Is that you?

Samara: I see a sweet little face back there. So that's Pancake, right?

Kelly: that's Pancake.

Samara: And did he see you? Is it like you pulled the coaster up and they thought, oh, time to time to party.

Kelly: saw me getting up 'cause my husband turned on the blender and I was

Samara: Oh.

Kelly: it's loud. anyway. Oh, but no, but yes. Well, he's blind now, so he can't see these. But,

Samara: Oh, okay.

Kelly: but, so yes, it doesn't, these would not work. They're visual cues. They wouldn't work for a blind dog. But if your dog can see, then they can become. An environmental cue that tells your dog like, the game is on. This game is on that, you know, and that you love. but we of, we do often talk about in class, since we use these kind of generalization, uh, tools a lot, is that you generally can't, do it in the house with your, with your treat targets and your dog loves it.

Kelly: You can't just take that and put it outside if your dog's afraid of being outside and expect your dog to be able to play the game. 'cause that's just too,

Samara: Right.

Kelly: have to do your incremental steps, but it can, um, make them go more smoothly. 'cause your dog will immediately know, they'll see the cue and be like, ah, is currently available for my sniff for this behavior, the sniffing game I play.

Samara: Right. That makes sense.

Kelly: enough to play the game.

Samara: I'll try that first with Nessie and see if I can get her to an intermediate, uh, great idea.

 How Much is Too Much?

Samara: So when you're helping a dog build confidence, and we've, we've talked about this a little bit already about, you know, I think we, in the context of flooding and, and what that one dog sitter did, but how do you know, um, whether it's healthy stretching that you're doing with your dog or whether you're pushing them beyond what they can handle?

Kelly: Well in the moment, like when you're actually in the training session, I look at, obviously I'm not gonna physically force the dog. So the first piece of criteria is will they do it willingly,

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: Like say, say, the behavior I'm doing is snuffling on a snuffle mat The context that today I wanna work on is, can my dog snuffle in a snuffle mat? I don't know, on the porch when there's traffic, you know, traffic noises or something. Um, first, will my dog come out onto the porch willingly and will they eat the food? Would be like, you definitely, obviously you need that or you definitely can't do the training. Um, okay, are they doing that their body language is relaxed or maybe is their tail down in their mouth a little tight? Um, know, they are a little hunched. So

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: or really body language are just more behaviors that we're able to observe. But what does their body language tell us? Even if they're doing the basic behavior of walking out here and eating the food, um, hesitation or latency. CR to perform the behavior. So they'll come out, but it took them a while. Or they'll come out and they're eating, but they have in between bites. They need to spend a lot of time, you know,

Samara: Like the hypervigilance. The hypervigilance, yeah.

Kelly: Um, so that in the session is like, is my dog happy to do this basically? And there are, those are all, some of the pieces I look at, like body language latency to do the behavior. Um, and then sometimes you can't or maybe just didn't notice during the session it was too much. So then, you know, by how it goes next time.

Samara: Okay.

Kelly: and that has happened to all of us probably, right? You're like, I

Samara: Yes.

Kelly: good, and then the next time you set it up, your dog's like, no, absolutely not.

Samara: It kind of makes me feel better that a trainer has also experienced that.

Kelly: so many times, so many times. Um, many times have I thought like, I think this is going okay. And then the next day I'm like, all right. Clearly going as well as I thought it was.

Samara: Yeah.

Kelly: you just,

Samara: Clear? Yeah. Clearly the job didn't have,

Kelly: can

Samara: okay.

Kelly: and just backtrack and

Samara: Yeah. Backtrack as soon as you can. You know, Nessie is a very, very, she loves treats. She'll take treats in almost any situation.

Kelly: Yeah.

Samara: And so sometimes I have to really watch that carefully because I do tend to overdo it be just for the mere fact that she will take treats in any situation.

Kelly: Right.

Samara: So, and I've learned the hard way.

Kelly: I know what you mean. I did Juno. Um, I may still have video of it somewhere of her taking treats during a body handling session and her tail is totally tucked,

Samara: Oh.

Kelly: tucked between her legs, but she still participating. And this is why participation is not enough, right? You really need to look at, not just the big behaviors you're thinking of, of like, will you stand still?

Kelly: Will I do this thing to you and eat treats? But does your body language look like? How is the latency to start or come back after each rep to start

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: Um, and if none of that was enough information for you, then how does it go tomorrow?

Samara: always remember participation is not enough. I, I like, that's a perfect way to say it, and Nessie certainly falls into that category.

Kelly: I've had a few dogs. Like that Pancake is not like that, but

Samara: Okay.

Kelly: um, but yes, it's not that uncommon for dogs to be like, okay, I'll do it. I really want this food. But, you know, and with some dogs you get away with it, but usually not with our really sensitive dogs,

Samara: You know what's interesting? 'cause Nessie has a kind of body language, you know, her tail's always kind of dropped low, uh, but not between her legs, just kind of low, a more neutral position. Um, and she doesn't, I think, to a, an observer, she seems just like a happy normal dog on walks. So I think sometimes they think I am losing my mind that there's something more to it, because they go, but I don't understand.

Samara: And it's the, it's a lot of hypervigilance for her. So she's there. Um, she freezes and not even freezes in the way that a lot of people would think an anxious dog would freeze. 'cause she, like you said, she's still participating. But now I've come to know when the hypervigilance and the head turning and the quickly looking over her shoulder starts happening, it's time to.

Samara: Exit the situation and get her back to her safe spot. Yeah, every dog is different. I, I look back and I think my cattle dog had a little bit of that, my cattle dog, Dublin, and I don't know if I was as aware. It's certainly not to the level like we're talking with Pancake and Nessie, but it's funny how you can look back now at previous dogs and go, Hmm, maybe she wasn't participating as fully as I thought either, you know?

Kelly: Well once. The better you get at at seeing those, those signals from dogs, the more you realize that. Lots of pet dogs all the time are giving these signals, and most people never learn to see them unless they end up with a dog who won't do something they want the dog to do. You know what I mean? If it's, if it, if they're fearful enough that it causes problems for the human, that's when we start to learn like, oh, I guess I be, I better learn like, what's going on here?

Kelly: And then you start, oh my God, really, my dog is really what freaked out. But if

Samara: Hmm.

Kelly: if your dog is, um, seems, you know, is tolerating coping or at least going along with what pe the humans want them to do, I think that they, those dogs tend to suffer in silence a little bit. Um,

Samara: Yeah, I see.

Kelly: sure there are surely many happy go lucky dogs, but even those dogs stuff will happen to them. That they don't like. And mostly it goes unrecognized unless the dog does something that no one can ignore.

Samara: That's right. And

Kelly: a bummer.

Samara: it's, um, you know, now I, the unfortunate part of this, and maybe fortunate, is now I notice it all around me with other friends dogs, and I just, and I, I try to be a compassionate human and. Because I don't want the dogs to suffer. So I do say something and sometimes it gets me in a whole world of trouble when I say something,

Kelly: Yeah,

Samara: but once you've seen it, you almost can't stop seeing it.

Kelly: no, you cannot. Um, and you know, any, yes, as, as you've noticed on unsolicited dog training advice, really unsolicited advice of any kind, uh, frequently does not go over well. Um, everyone loves their dogs generally. they all wanna think, you know, they're doing their best by their dogs. They're doing the best they know how to do, no one wants to think that they are stressing out their dog or scaring them them unhappy. So it's understandable that people will feel, you know, kind of defensive about that kind of thing. And I don't know that there's any way around that other than, just sharing body language resources on social media, wherever, where people will just come across them, you know, without anyone saying, you need to watch this.

Kelly: Right. But 

Kelly: You don't want anyone to feel like they're being judged or, um, that you're saying they're doing something wrong. 'cause that's makes it harder to have a conversation about it.

Samara: That's right. It's definitely a very fine line. Um, and I appreciate you understanding that as well. 'cause I know, as you know with your background. It must be even more challenging sometimes to refrain from,

Kelly: Yeah, not so much anymore. I mean,

Samara: okay.

Kelly: put myself in situations as often. Like I don't spend these days with the, the dogs I have. I don't spend a lot of time at public dog parks,

Samara: Yeah.

Kelly: to be a place that I, that I found hard to be in at times. Um, I mean, I occasionally, if I'm out and about in, you know, during a busy time, say up here in the summer, and I see a bunch of people with who have brought their dogs out to some busy public event and I'm like, oh my God, some of these dogs are really miserable.

Samara: Yes,

Kelly: that's hard. But my dog, my student dogs, sure I see the same thing, but that's a different relationship, right? Because

Samara: they're asking for your.

Kelly: coming to learn and to do better for their dogs and trying to figure out what they're missing. Um, and so we already have the basis for having, for, um, working on that together.

Samara: Yeah.

Kelly: public. You really don't, so,

Samara: we don't generally do dog parks either, um, but we have this one little one that's just a nice group of dogs and we've found that 'cause she comes alive in the company of dogs, drop her down into any location and as long as she's in a group of dogs, she's fine.

Samara: As long as soon as they start dwindling though, that's when the hypervigilance begins again. But it's that I, I wanna be really careful 'cause I never wanna put her in a situation where she is overwhelmed or there's dogs who are not as well adjusted to be in a situation like that. So, yeah, I, I could kind of, I could kind of see that.

Samara: Recently we've been experimenting with taking her to the beach with her favorite dog, which I, I think they call a stooge dog. A dog that you can, a really confident dog that you can bring along. And as her standard poodle friend. And we've been having some outings at the beach, but on quiet days, you know, off days, not weekends.

Samara: And that's been helping tremendously. And it also keeps me out of having to see what other people are doing with your dogs, like you said, 'cause Yeah,

Kelly: on your dog and yeah.

Samara: exactly.

Kelly: That's so nice.

Samara: for someone who's overwhelmed by their dog's fears, is there any small bit of advice, like something that they could shift either in their mindset. Or in their daily routine that can make a difference early on. Just something where they're just, I'm so overwhelmed. Give me something now, please.

Kelly: That's a tough question without me imagining a specific set of issues. I think for the kind of dogs I usually work with, um, one of the first things, if they're on the more fearful end of the spectrum of the fearful dogs I work with, one of the first things I say is grab, you know, grab this PDF guide on setting up a, um, safe space for your dog.

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: and let's just give them a place that they can just be. you know, feel safe. You're not, you're not gonna push anything. Like if they go in there, it's their space. And that can, for dogs who are really scared and have no hiding spot or, you know, some, the, the guardians have been told that they shouldn't let the dog hide or they will never learn, you know, to be brave or whatever. Um, making that change can go a long way toward reducing everybody's stress level. Um, I guess not, just don't push it. 

Samara: don't push it. Let them come to you. If they don't come to you, assume that there's a reason for that, That, that was a deliberate choice. Um, and I know that's hard on our egos, believe me. Um, and our hurts our feelings, right? Because we love these dogs so much. And, um. Sometimes they want nothing to do with us, and that

Samara: Yeah.

Kelly: great feeling, but you do more harm than good. You know, trying to sort of push your affection onto them because they don't see it as affection.

Kelly: honestly, they gotta work with somebody. If you've got a dog that fearful, like, don't go it alone. It's too, it's too much for most people to do by themselves.

Samara: that's right. You know, I'll, I'll, I'll be really frank here. I had to get a therapist in the beginning of this. I was like, I'm doing this all alone, separation anxiety, uh, dog that doesn't wanna go anywhere. And, and that really helped. That was the way to not go it alone. And then getting a veterinary behaviorist on board

Kelly: Yeah.

Samara: a positive reinforcement trainer on board.

Samara: And we were, and dog sitters who could actually follow the protocol. Uh, I say I had to create a village around Nessie, and I essentially did create a village, which she has to this day, to the point now that. Her, well, her safe zone used to be the bed, uh, my bed. And so if anybody came in to do work on the house, she would run right to the bed.

Samara: And, and in the early days she didn't want to come out. Um, she just didn't. And now she greets people at the door, her, her bed. But if she needs to, the door's always open and she can run to that, that safe space. So I know, yeah, you really can't say too much about, uh, or enough about a safe space because it really is crucial and always having an out.

Samara: Even when we go out the front gate on the night, she wants to, I make it very clear that the front gate is left open,

Kelly: Right. You can

Samara: you know,

Kelly: in.

Samara: she can go right back in. Even my tenants know if they come out and that gate's open, keep it open then an immediate Yeah, immediate exit.

Kelly: Yeah.

Changes in Dogs and Their People 

Samara: When you look at fearful or anxious dogs and their people over time, what kind of changes have you most seen?

Samara: Not just in the dog, but in the relationship with the person 

Kelly: I mean, the dogs. You see if, if you're doing things right, you see more behaviors being tried out, being offered, um, you see some things start to bother them less. And or recovery being spooked,

Samara: yes.

Kelly: usually quicker. Um, and hopefully the dog starts becoming more, um, more able to work with their person, happier to work with their person, um, if they start out not being happy to work with their prison. Um, also looking for a greater variety of behaviors, greater variety and greater sort of. Volume, I guess, of, um, occurrences of behaviors that the dog has learned will produce positive reinforcement, produce good things.

Samara: Okay.

Kelly: we'd like to see them spending basically more of their time and energy on behaviors to get good things rather than behaviors, uh, designed to avoid stuff

Samara: And then like resilience too.

Kelly: I mean, resilience is, I think most people, when they use the word resilience, they mean, um, the ability to bounce back basically, or recover, um, from a traumatic event.

Kelly: And, yes, I think as you build that big strong, um, learning history of positive reinforcement, um, being produced by their behaviors that you do tend to get. Um, less carryover or less fewer la lasting effects of, you know, something scaring them. You'd be like, Ugh, that sucked, but oh hey, my knuckle that, um, which, you know, early when you start, that was terrifying and I'm not coming outta this great for the next four, eight hours or whatever.

Kelly: So, um, from the human point of view, I think obviously people are, are developing a better understanding of their dog, which involves also learning a kind of a new language to apply to what they're seeing. Um, and I think one of the greatest skills I can teach them, and I think that most people end up with pretty quickly is the ability to recognize and celebrate what to us might seem like tiny. Victories or tiny steps forward, but are actually quite significant for the dog. And I know when I see people volunteering those on their own, that they, that that's, they've, they're starting to develop that skill of, you know, oh my God, when I came into the room, she just looked at me and went back to eating on her snuffle mat. didn't just stare at me until I left, or, you know, or she didn't retreat to her bed. Um, that's actually not even that tiny of a, of a victory, but, or, you know, she heard this sound and she did look at it for a minute, but then she stayed out a little longer

Samara: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: on her game. So I think in order for us to enjoy the process with these fearful dogs and to do right by them, that, that's a really important skill to, to recognize that Little changes in behaviors and small behaviors like, well, my dog wouldn't step over the threshold. Yeah, but look, she stopped at the threshold and didn't retreat immediately and ate a treat. is reinforcer behavior right there. Um, rather than focusing on the not, didn't do this, you know, what, what happened that we can't reinforce something that didn't happen, but what happened That we can reinforce.

Samara: Yes. Makes it makes a lot of sense. I often joke that, uh, the first time my dog was nose to the ground outside sniffing, and there wasn't a treat there. I celebrated that

Kelly: Yeah.

Samara: organic sniffing, oh my gosh. All on her own. And then another time was she, she peed on a neighbor's lawn. Now this is a dog who won't go outside.

Samara: She won't, she won't eliminate anywhere other than her backyard or in a dog if there's other dogs in an enclosed area. It's very strange, but I've learned to accept it. But the one day she did that, most people would be like, mortified. Oh my gosh. She just peed in front of the neighbor on their lawn. And I was, I was pretty much out there.

Samara: Celebrating and jumping for joy. So it definitely is the, we lower the bar on what is, you know, seems like success, but the only way to lower the, to raise the bar again, is to, like you said, go in slow. Slow increments. Um, and

Key Takeaways

Samara: I just have one more question for you. If there was one thing you wish more people would know about their fearful and anxious dogs, what would you want them to know?

Kelly: Um, maybe I'll pick two, but I'll start with one. Um, one thing is that. Behavior is a product of the environment. It is not due to the dogs, you know, an idea about their personality. Um, things like you mentioned earlier, you know, oh, my dog's stubborn or whatever, I'm not a good enough leader. Those are not helpful constructs. Um, you need to look at proceeds and follows behavior. And, you know, if a dog is not doing something and you want them to do it, they're not doing it because they don't have a history of that behavior being reinforced, at least in that context. And or the, um, there are other reinforcers. Which might be the, of the negative variety in the environment that are making your positive reinforcement not valuable right now? Um, it's not because, you know, there's nothing, it doesn't help us to, to spin complex stories about the dog's thinking or why they're doing this or did they pee on the bed 'cause they're mad at me or whatever. It's, um, it's, you're gonna be much more successful and less frustrated if you just remind yourself it's a dog. humans as well, our behavior is shaped by, you know, punishment and reinforcement and, um, and motivations, which affect how valuable those reinforcers, or punishers are. The totally unrelated, but still, I think important piece that I would love more people to take to heart is that. Consulting, a veterinary behavior a veterinary behaviorist, or even just your primary care vet about medications should not be a last resort. It is, it can be a huge, um, quality of life saver for dogs. And most people who have tried something for their dog and found it to benefit, regret that they did not do it sooner, and that they let their dog struggle. And I did the same for my girl, Juno. When she was young, she was fearful. I weighed, I delayed many months I thought that, you know, I just needed to try harder. I needed to train harder. Um, and ultimately it made such a difference to her quality of life to go to the veterinary behaviorist, but I treated it as a last resort.

Samara: Yes. Thank you so much for putting a pin on that. 'cause I know that from personal experience as well, and I, I really hope other people would learn that and consider that. And I, I think that is just a wonderful place to wrap up. Um, thank you so much for being here, Dr. Lee. Kelly! Uh, before we close though, could you please let our listeners know where to find you?

Kelly: Yeah. Um, my website is dogkindtraining.com and I'm on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. All. If you search Dogkind training, you'll find me in any of those places. All of my training is online, so I work with people all over the world and um, yeah. Always happy to meet another um, fearful dog fan.

Samara: Absolutely, and and I, I have to say too, like dog kind training, love the name,

Kelly: Aw, thanks.

Samara: think it's, think it's brilliant and you've got great information online. So I encourage our viewers to go on over to dogkindtraining.com and of course we'll be sure to include all those contact details in the show notes.

Samara: And thank you again, Dr. Lee. And to our listeners, thanks for listening to Shy Dog Diaries. If you're walking this slower path with your own dog, you're not alone. Follow the journey on Instagram at Shy Dog Diaries. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please follow, share, and leave a review. It really helps other dog lovers find us.

Samara: Join us next time for more tender tales, expert advice and inspiration for your own dog's transformation.

​ Shy Dog Diaries is for education and entertainment only. It's not a substitute for working with your own trainer, behaviorist, or veterinarian.