The Niners Podcast
The Niners Podcast (not about football) explores stories about people living on the cusp of something new. For the next 99 weeks, starting Sept 29th, I'll be dropping interviews of people who are 9-months pregnant, 9 years old, 19, 29, 39, 49, 59, 69, 79, 89, and anyone in their nineties. I'm curious to learn about hopes, dreams, fears, and advice that folks have to share, folks who are living on the edge of a decade, of a century, or about to bring a new life onto the planet.
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The Niners Podcast
Episode 36: ML
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Meet ML. At 79 she's working to improve discourse, slow down, and spend more time with different voices around the table for pizza, beer, and good conversation. Listen to this episode and make sure you then listen to the previous episode, 35, featuring another 79 year old, Rolando. Though conservative in his views, Rolando's ideas align closely with ML's. A gentle reminder that although we live in a time of great political divides, there can still be, and always should, be room for all voices at the table when we aspire towards common goals of civil, thoughtful, and compassionate conversation.
One of the things that's happened to me since I first dated my husband a hundred years ago, I've become more I've learned to I'm slowly learning to live in the moment and not fret and know when to take a deep breath and shut up. I tell everybody that I've gotten to a point now where I think I'm living in that movie groundhog day where you keep doing the same thing over and over again. I'm old enough that I spent my teen years doing a lot of volunteer work stuffing envelopes for the student nonviolent coordinating committee for voting rights. Then when I then we went through the whole women's health issues, and we're still fighting those battles, and it it scares me. And I sometimes wake up and I think haven't made any progress. And the way the country is going really scares me a lot.
SPEAKER_01Good morning, good afternoon, good whatever time it is, and wherever you're tuning in from, I'm Tim Cunningham, the host of the Niners Podcast, where I have the privilege to meet and interview folks who are living on the edge. People with a nine in their age, people who are nine months pregnant, nine years old, 19, 29, 39, 49, all the way up to folks in their 90s, people who are living on the edge, living on the cusp of moving into a new century or about to deliver a child, or in the case of this interview today, someone who is on the verge of a new decade. And I'm thrilled to meet and learn from you today, ML. Welcome and thanks for joining the podcast.
SPEAKER_00My pleasure.
SPEAKER_01So since this is a podcast about nines and age, my first question is, ML, how old are you today?
SPEAKER_00I am 79 years and 20 days.
SPEAKER_0179 and 20 days. So you're just beginning the process of ending a decade.
SPEAKER_00But it's the first time my age has ever changed, and I really sort of started thinking about things in a different way. I mean, not in a very positive way. I mean, like I'm grateful I'm still moving and going places and traveling and things, but it's just brought up a lot.
SPEAKER_01Tell me a little bit more about that. Was there sort of a defining moment that started to bring up a lot, or has this been a general feeling?
SPEAKER_00No, it was close to my birthday, and I'm going like, oh my God, I'm going to be 79. And I'm not I don't mind being 79. My mother was going strong until she was 87. And I'm happy with my life. I mean, I would be happier if my husband was still alive, but I have a real belief that if you have had a good life with somebody, you owe it to them to continue to have a good life. I have no use for people that have had wonderful lives and go, oh my God, I can't do anything. My husband would be angry at me if I took that approach.
SPEAKER_01How long ago did he pass?
SPEAKER_00Seven years.
SPEAKER_01Seven years ago. Okay. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00It was also one of those things that if he had lived, he would have been an invalid. And that would have been very unpleasant for all involved, especially him.
SPEAKER_01And so you're you're living the good life for yourself and for him.
SPEAKER_00And he took care of me, and you know, all's good.
SPEAKER_01Great. Well, Emil, you are connected with another Niner, Ken, who, if you're listening in, folks, you've already heard his interview. And Ken reached out to me one day after doing the interview. He said, Oh my God, Tim, you gotta meet Emil. And turns out she's 79, so you should interview her. And I know you all were hanging out in in Southern Virginia, but you don't sound like you're from Virginia. Can you tell us a little bit about where you're from and where do you live now?
SPEAKER_00Even if I didn't tell you that I was from Boston, as this interview goes on, you'd find that out. I grew up in Boston, spent my entire life there until we moved here about nine years ago. Nine or no, 11, 12 years ago. I can't, I have no numerical memory. I've got a visual memory, but not numbers. And I live in Charlottesville, Virginia now, and I refer to myself as a southerner in training.
SPEAKER_01A southerner in training. How long does it take to complete your southerner in training time?
SPEAKER_00I've got another 35 years to go.
SPEAKER_01Fair, fair. You know, I I was sharing with you before the interview, we we crossed paths very likely when I was a clown with the big apple circus performing at Boston Children's Hospital.
SPEAKER_00And Apple Circus was my very favorite, favorite thing in the entire world.
SPEAKER_01Tell me more. What why why did you love it so much?
SPEAKER_00The first time I took the kids, then even after the kids like grew up. I mean, because I used to play in right it's by City Hall. And I just was so obsessed that my husband kept taking me and buying me front row seats. And one time we went and I was sitting right in the front, and the clown and I sort of got involved with each other. And it was so much so that I was having the best time of my life. And of course, my daughters are happened to be home from college, they're like looking like going, oh my God, is it never gonna end? It was the best night of my life.
SPEAKER_01That's the magic of the circus.
SPEAKER_00And the Big Apple Circus was so wonderful and so wholesome. It was just you could not there was nothing you could find wrong with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00For a fact they took wonderful care of their animals.
SPEAKER_01They did. And what was beautiful about working for the Big Apple Clown Care was that I worked in the hospitals, but when the circus would come to town, the clowns would be invited. But even more importantly, patients in the hospital that we were working with, if they were able and it was safe, would be invited and they could be guest ringleaders. Such an extraordinary time. The best. And I was thinking about when I moved, because I grew up in Virginia near near Charlottesville. But when I moved to Boston, I thought everybody was yelling at me because that was the first time in my life where people were direct with me all the time. So I unlearned my Southern training. And now living in Georgia, I'm relearning it. And it makes me sad to know I've got about 20 more years to figure it out.
SPEAKER_00It is so strange moving here because I have a very good friend and she gives me so much background information when she goes to tell me something, you know, like she was married to so-and-so, and her daughter's married, you know, then I forget what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01That that's how you do it. That's that's how you trick them. You got to take it in all the different directions, and then you lose the point, and then you get you get to the point, but maybe that wasn't the original point. Can you tell us a little bit about what are some things that excite you about the next decade?
SPEAKER_00And right after I finish having my 80th birthday party here, I'm joining my college roommate in England for her 80th birthday party.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Can you tell us about some of the the other plans? Are you gonna have a circus? Are you gonna bring in clowns?
SPEAKER_00If I could, I would. Are you a good one?
SPEAKER_01I know some. I know some people here. I I I and my calendar is not booked out that far, so let's talk.
SPEAKER_00I I'm excited about being 80 because I can be my crazy self. One of my sort of role models is Lady Pamela Hicks.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I'm not familiar with Lady Pamela Hicks.
SPEAKER_00She was English and she spent most of her life being a aide to Queen Elizabeth. And actually, she was traveling with Queen Elizabeth when in Africa when she found out that her father had died and she was now queen. And she's just crazy enough, you know, and she's outgoing and she's well, she's passed away now, but sort of unfiltered.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00And that's a good thing about being 80. You don't have to be filtered anymore.
SPEAKER_01And and even though you're still learning to be a southerner, you that's the next level of filters to be unfiltered and still learn to be a southerner.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I'll never really be a southerner. For one thing, I know how to parallel park.
SPEAKER_01ML, do you feel like you're already in that unfiltered space? Or will will you become increasingly more and more unfiltered over the coming years?
SPEAKER_00I think we'll probably become a little more, but I'm trying to keep it into a civilized space.
SPEAKER_01That's very, very generous of you. But if you were to look back a decade to when you were 69 years old, how would you say you've changed?
SPEAKER_00I think one of the things that's happened to me since I first dated my husband 100 years ago, I've become more I've learned to, I'm slowly learning to live in the moment and not fret and know when to take a deep breath and shut up. And I'm learning the last few years, once I stopped working, I used to work for an auction house. And I'd get so angry at people that would say they would do something and then not do it because, well, I'm a volunteer. You know, okay.
SPEAKER_01You still have something to do.
SPEAKER_00So I'm learning to be at peace with that.
SPEAKER_01Mm, thinking about moving forward and the things that you're excited about, how you've changed over the last decade in some ways. Can you tell us a little about some of the things that you're concerned about as you move into the next decade?
SPEAKER_00I tell everybody that I've gotten to a point now where I think I'm living in that movie groundhog day where you keep living the same thing over and over again. I'm old enough that I spent my teen years doing a lot of volunteer work stuffing envelopes for the student nonviolent coordinating committee for voting rights. Then when I then we went through the whole women's health issues and we're still fighting those battles. And it it scares me. And I sometimes wake up and I think, we haven't made any progress. And the way the country is going really scares me a lot.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you for all the work you did decades ago to move that forward. Did you feel at the time when you were working as an activist, did you ever say there's no way it could get any worse than this? And do you feel like it's worse than you could have imagined?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm probably gonna get hate mail for saying this, but I was of an age that I thought Richard Nixon was the worst president on the planet. And I've changed that opinion. Wow. Not anymore. And the other thing that really bothers me is that we're losing what little bit of civility we had as people. Because people say things to other people now that I can't imagine saying. They say it in print, they say it on Instagram, and it just it staggers me. Absolutely staggers me.
SPEAKER_01And and there really feels like there's no checks or balances, or or to use a a government term, there's nothing. Yeah. You remind me of a colleague of mine who I worked with. Uh he's he's younger than you, probably in his early 60s, maybe, but he uh he grew up in Alabama. He's an African-American man, and he was a child when the schools were being desegregated. And he told me we were having a glass of wine, and and I said, you know, what are you worried about? Just in conversation. And he said, Tim, this is the worst it's ever been. And I said, Whoa, you you've told me stories of what it was like to be a black child in the South desegregating schools. You're telling me it's worse than that. And he said, Yep. And he said, he echoes your your point, Emil. He said, back then it was bad, but there was still an element of civility.
SPEAKER_00Gone, totally gone.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly what he said too, completely gone.
SPEAKER_00I never thought I would wind up living in a state where you could walk down the street carrying a submachine gun over your shoulder. It is it is just beyond, you know, because we were we had just fairly recently moved here when we had the riots in Charlottesville. And it's like, whoa.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The thing that really breaks my heart about all of that is that I don't think anybody learned anything out of it. In Richmond, the statue of Robert E. Lee wound up with an incredible amount of graffiti all around its big granite base.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00They took it down. They should have left it there, left it right there, because you can stand at that statue and look up to the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, and there's a wonderful horse statue with an African American on it.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Like, learn.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, have it right there. And I'm glad they took, they took all the other statues down on Monument Avenue, except for the statue of Arthur Ash. But I I agree with you. And I saw the Robert E. Lee statue with after it had been painted. And and it it, yeah, you're right. Learn. We're we're not even allowing ourselves to learn.
SPEAKER_00And and now we're posting notices at the Smithsonian that the history they say in there is not right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I remember that day in Charlottesville. I was a new professor at UVA, and that was the first day I had ever experienced tear gas. I was out with counter-protesters, and I agree with you. I mean, to see people walking down the street with automatic weapons saying the worst things you could imagine.
SPEAKER_00It it was it was so frightening. And my husband at that happened to be having dialysis at the hospital that day. And I live over by Barracks Road at that time. And I literally could not get to the hospital. I had to drive out of town, go all the way up around and come into town from the other side. And I get to the hospital and I get out of the car. Now, the poor guy has like been waiting for an hour and a half of me to show up at this point. And I had to get frisked for carrying weapons to go in and get them.
SPEAKER_01So and and you said it's it feels like it's getting worse. What we're seeing on a much larger scale in many ways. My next question related to that is you as an individual ML, what are some things that you can do to alleviate some of those concerns and the worries and the things you're seeing?
SPEAKER_00Well, in my old age, I'm becoming more of an activist again. And God knows I support candidates. I mean, I'm gonna die in with ten dollar donations to act global. Anyway, and that's what I do. And I I've had to here in Charlottesville since I moved here, Charlottesville is still in many ways a segregated community.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_00In the sense that people don't intermingle.
SPEAKER_01And and what you're saying too, I I visit Charlottesville frequently. I still have many friends and family living nearby. I think it's become more segregated, even when I was a student in the nursing school there, and and even when I was an assistant professor, the divisions seem to be getting greater and greater.
SPEAKER_00And it's and it's almost like self-segregation. It's I don't see that's what I don't understand anymore. I thought this was over with.
SPEAKER_01You did a lot of good work back in the days. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's not enough.
SPEAKER_01Not enough. Well, you have to inspire, and it sounds like you're doing that in your own work and then inspiring future generations to keep this happening. Otherwise, we're out of luck. Imel, we we've spoken about a bunch of things, your your your excitement moving forward, your concerns moving forward, ways that you have shown up as an activist and continue to show up as an activist to hopefully help prevent the state that we're living in from getting any worse. And when I say state, I'm not talking about geographical state, just state of everything. Tell me more about ideas or opportunities that you see where we can we can work together to make things better.
SPEAKER_00I recently I've been to a series of dinners at uh Monticello, and it's called Culinary Diplomacy. That brings chefs into other countries and into groups here so that people can talk. Because that was over meals, and that was Thomas Jefferson's big thing entertaining and having conversation over food. And I think that's a way that we could all start locally in our own lives, is just bring and it doesn't have to be fancy food. I mean, you can invite people in for like good pizza and beer. And I think that that's a step that anybody can take. And I think it's also important to support the organizations financially.
SPEAKER_01It's, you know, working with a nonprofit myself, and I know you've worked with many nonprofits, we often function, many of us on a shoestring budget. So that really can be helpful when it's almost like it seems like the mission-driven folks generally make the less way less money than the less mission-driven folks. You know, Imel, if you were to select another group of niners, someone at the cusp of a decade, 29, 39, 49, whatever the number is, or moving forward, 89 or 99, would there be any advice that you would share to a listener who is also facing some pretty big change?
SPEAKER_00I think it goes back to something I said earlier about that the older I've gotten, the more I realize that you have to be in the moment and not worrying about tomorrow or even tonight. Because I think you miss things and you particularly miss nuanced things. And I think that's the biggest thing no matter what age you are. I definitely was not when I was younger. That's when I first started dating my husband. I was worrying about where this relationship was going. And because I'll be perfectly honest, I never said, I never felt that people fell head over heels in love. And I did instantly. And that was impeding our relationship. Because he would he would tell me afterwards that he always knew he loved me. He wasn't sure he could live with me.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_00Because he was one of those people that was always just steady like this, never worried about things he couldn't change. And I would get like all over the place.
SPEAKER_01As you were falling in love at first sight and falling head over heels, coming from a place of previously having not believed in it, how how was that internally for yourself? Did that create a lot of conflict and confusion?
SPEAKER_00Or not conflict, wonder and awe. He and I had known each other. I mean, like we'd see him around, I'd see him around town at events, and we wound up at a birthday party together one night. It was my college roommate, and the apartment was too small, and the air conditioning wasn't working, and there were too many people at the party. And there was this very strange woman who kind of cornered him about professional advice because she was a young, she just got out of law school. And he turned to me and he said, I can't stand another minute of this. He said, Let's go to dinner at the Ritz-Carlton Cafe. So off we went. And we just started talking and talking, and we went back to his apartment and sat and talked until two o'clock in the morning. And I, you know, he walked me home. I lived only a couple blocks, a block or two from him. And I got the bed, and I'm going, Oh my God, what just happened? Because I saw him in a totally different light.
SPEAKER_01What a gift.
SPEAKER_00It was. And then once I calmed down, it worked out.
SPEAKER_01How long did it take for you to quote unquote calm down?
SPEAKER_00Um, I will tell we dated for probably three and a half years. And I was getting like really antsy. My mother said to me, if you really love him and this is all he's willing to give you for a relationship, he she said, then you should be happy with it. And I took a deep breath and I calmed down and we were engaged four days later. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Do you think he was waiting? He he saw you, he knew you, he loved you, but at his sort of steady state, was he just waiting for that moment?
SPEAKER_00I think I scared him a little bit. You know, because he was just totally unflappable.
SPEAKER_01And you flapped him. ML, you you have been on and continue to be on such a journey. I'm I'm grateful for all that you've shared today and and look forward to continuing the conversation in whatever form that lands. But for the sake of this podcast, I've got one last question. But if you've got something else to add, please go for it before I know. Okay. This is last question that that I I am super curious about, especially thinking about your broad journey, all you've experienced, all you've seen today, in this moment, where you are in life, what matters the most to you?
SPEAKER_00My children, my two daughters. And I am blessed with two fabulous girls, very successful girls, very caring girls. And that's that's really what matters most to me. And then once I move past that, it's the state the United States is in. That matters a great deal to me. Because as we talked about, I was involved in different things. Voting rights and and women's health issues. And when I see something on the news telling me that married women are going to be denied the vote, I lose it. Absolutely lose it. I subscribe to the New York Times on Sunday, which is what, seven, eight dollars or ten dollars or however much it is. And of the last year, I don't think I I've read the whole thing since in the last year, but I buy sections, I take out sections, but I feel that I have to keep subscribing to it because I believe in the press.
SPEAKER_01I know that sounds like really weird, but I I don't think that's weird at all. And my friends in publishing are all talking about how concerned they are in losing the memberships of people like you who still support the free press in in and in and and getting the papers and but it is hard. And I think something you shared earlier in this interview about how this loss of civility and what I also hear in that this loss of communication skills. Writing is not what it used to be. The Atlantic just had an article that said it. It was called The Death of Reading and talked about how we don't know how to communicate the way we used to, and that might also be attributing to this what feels like a crumbling society.
SPEAKER_00No, we don't know how to communicate. And what's really scary is that from the top of the government doesn't know how to communicate. It's been fun.
SPEAKER_01It's been super fun. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up?
SPEAKER_00No, only that this is what I'm talking about. Talking absolutely. We've had a wonderful time exchanging ideas, and if we could only make that happen for everyone somehow. So I'm back to giving dinner parties and not all my regular people, new people to chat with and see what happens.
SPEAKER_01Well, ML, if I would be so bold, I would love to invite myself to a dinner party.
SPEAKER_00Anytime. Anytime. You'll just give me a couple days' notice and we'll work it out.
SPEAKER_01Sweet. I'll bring the pizza, you bring the beer.
SPEAKER_00I will. Take care.
SPEAKER_01ML, thank you. Thank you. Folks, thanks so much for tuning in today to this episode of the Niners Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Cunningham, and it's been a joy to learn from you, ML, and enjoy to see our listener base growing. Every ninth day of the month, we drop a new episode, and we've consistently have more listeners for downloads. So if you like what you hear, or if you don't like what you hear and want to engage in the conversation, leave a comment, leave a like, share with other people. So, in reflection of what ML just shared with us, let's find ways to continue talking. Thank you again for joining everyone. Thank you, Jen Cornell, for creating our intro and outro music. You can learn more about Jen Cornell at genshow.com. And we'll see you all next time on the Niners Podcast.