Hairless Men, Fake IDs, and A Little Drummer Girl

On the 7th episode of the Only KADs Podcast, April, Nate, Jenna, and Claire discuss Asian stereotypes in western culture (Yes, that one, too), what makes someone “masculine” and does it have anything to do with the amount of hair one has, and wonder what’s going on with Asian countries being bigoted toward each other? Nate shares a life update, and the group talks about some upcoming travels. 

WRITE IN with your questions or comments for the crew and you might hear your message on the next episode: onlykadspod@gmail.com 

Terminology and Notes:

KAD - Korean Adoptee

KAAN - Korean American Adoptee Adoptive Family Network

Note: Due to some suggestive, crude language, and mature topics, listener discretion is advised. In other words, don’t have us playing in the car with your little DoKADs’ ears in close proximity! (DoKAD: Descendant of a Korean Adoptee)

Dropping at midnight EST on the first Wednesday of each month, check out the Only KADs Podcast available on your favorite streaming platform.

Questions? Comments? Have a topic you'd like to be discussed on Only KADs? Send us an email at onlykadspod@gmail.com. 

For more fun:

Connect with Claire Magenheimer on Instagram @claire_magenheimer and The Empowered Adoptee Podcast with Laurie Vogler on your favorite podcast platform

Explore with Jenna Lee Kim @mayor.jenna.explores on Instagram and Facebook. Read about her experiences as an American KAD living in Korea by subscribing to her newsletter or listening on Exploring with Jenna Lee Kim on Spotify

Check out Nate Choi at @color_shift_tra on Instagram, follow his podcast: Color Shift: Transracial Adoptees anywhere you listen to podcasts, and follow his journey on his blog

Follow April Williamson on Instagram @deepsouthkorean and check out her website for links to some seriously excellent merch, her TikTok, YouTube channel and Podcast

Title: Good for the Ghost - Alge 

Genre and Mood: R&B & Soul + Calm 

License: You're free to use this song and monetize your videos.

Music provided by LoverThisMusic

Creative Commons - Attribution 3.0 Unported

Video Link:  https://youtu.be/omo6i8ZwpAM?si=gURxw7QJoODC1Q2L   

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 0:01

It's your friends. April. Jenna. Claire.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

And Nate. This is the Only Cats podcast. We're glad you're here. Let's get to it.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Yeah, did you shave? Are you always that short in the in the beard?

SPEAKER_00 0:15

I shaved it longer.

SPEAKER_04 0:16

I don't know anything about getting white chin hairs, Nate.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

So to have a gnarly white chest hair. It's just like the single, single hair that's just like just like sticking out of my chest. It looks like the reverse, like alien, like because instead of it being black, it's white. It's just like shooting out of my chest. It's very weird. I noticed it when I was at the gym the other day. Yeah, I have like other, like it's not like I'm not like uh yeah, I'm not like woolly or anything like that. Um just like there's sporadic chest hair, but then there's this one that is just the silver thing sticking out.

SPEAKER_05 1:01

The silver fox. So, question for you, Nate. Do you work out shirtless? Is that how you noticed it? Were you like in front of the mirror, like flexing? No.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

I was changing. I was changing. Uh no, if I worked out shirtless, it would be like a hot, it would be just a sweaty mess. It would be just a a waterfall. Um, so like my shirts when I'm done running are completely soaked. It's like I put on a darker, damper shirt somewhere in the midst of my running.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

So do men want to have chest hair? Is that like a thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I think we want to have chest hair because we think that some women like chest hair.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Oh no, I I don't require chest hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Yeah, I don't I don't actually care one way or the other. Um, but I I I think that's like this weird, I don't know if it's a Western society thing of like chest hair being masculine and you know overtly just male, like type of thing. So yeah, and I think that you know, we talk about stereotypes, so kind of getting in jumping into our topic uh for this week, month, whatever we do. Um like like I don't have really a whole lot of hair on my arms and my legs, like hardly any at all. Like it's it's weird, especially on my arms and my legs. So, like, I don't know if that's part of like this uh stereotype or this misperception of Asian men for the longest time not being viewed as very masculine. Um, because we're not like big hairy beasts, you know, out there forging or whatever. I don't know. But like, yeah, this is kind of I don't know, it's just a weird, it's a weird thing. I don't know if that's a part of it that plays into it. Like, you like no hair, you know what I'm saying? Like on my legs, really, on my arms. You have you do have but this took forever, though. When I tell you this took forever, as in like we're talking like into my 30s before I really felt like there was something here of any substance, and honestly, I'm deathly afraid of shaving it off because it may not come back, like that's a fear that like realistic fear. Like, if I shave this thing, is it gonna come back? Because it took so long, took so long to get this.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

So I I want to say for the record that I have I dated a guy one time, white guy, with just a rug. I mean, like you haven't seen an actual rug like this in your life, and it was on his chest. It was it was a lot. And I did not find this to be, I didn't, I did not think he could hunt for me any better because he had this hair. I did not find him more attractive because he had this hair. And I never thought about you know, the stereotype of Asian men maybe not being as masculine and if it had it had anything to do with hair. So that's interesting to think about. I just know that I waited a long time in you know, middle school. All my friends were shaving their legs and and I was like waiting. Well, I'll get there, guys. I'm still waiting. I'm I'm still waiting to have to shave my legs, and then then then the phase of everyone's like, oh, you don't have to shave your legs yet. And now, of course, all my girlfriends are like, that's pretty awesome that you don't have to shave.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

Yeah, it is. I'm not gonna lie.

unknown 4:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

I was asked a lot of times if I was a swimmer, like, are you a swimmer? I'm like, no. Like, why are your legs are so smooth? I'm like, thanks.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

You're like a seal.

unknown 4:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:51

You're a baby. I don't think that the the hairless look is bad at all. Like, I was in the bodybuilder world for many years, and all the hair is taken off. Like you shave, wax. I don't know what the guys do to get that clean bare skin look, but they take care of it, you know, and so there's like no leg hair, there's no chest hair, there's no back hair. Um, but I did date a guy who was bodybuilder, but he shaved his chest so it was like always stubbly and it was very uncomfortable. I didn't like it. It would like give me rashes, and I'm like, I don't like that. Just if you're gonna just wax it, right? Just wax it or nair. I think that was a thing back in the 80s. We should bring it back.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

We don't want that, women don't want any situation where we get any kind of rash from a man.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yeah, any kind of friction burn of any kind. Like, I've even seen women talk about how they were with men with rough beards and then they got like rug burn on their face, but the beard was dirty, so they got like a stack infection. So you know what, Nate? It's probably not a terrible thing that you don't have a lot of facial hair.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah, like I said, I think it's I don't know. Uh I I attribute to like this Western culture of just thinking of like big burly men, and they're typically hairy. And so I think that that kind of leads into the stereotype of like you know, Asian men not being like masculine or tough enough or you know, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_05 6:30

So well, Jenna, you're into the lumberjack look. Do you do you find yourself with a lot of burly hairy guys? Oh well, yeah, there was a rug guy.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

Yeah, I was in my 20s, you know, there weren't a lot of options. Uh, not an excuse, kind of an excuse. First, I do want people to write in about this. If you're listening to this, I want to know onlycatspod at gmail.com what we think about body hair and masculinity, and whether we think that's a western thing. If if if women think that's if you're a woman, do you think that's more attractive? I do it's probably a individual preference choice, right? But I will say, Asian men with a smooth back and chest, there ain't nothing wrong with that. I don't know that I can go back.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

It's not a turn on when you're in the middle of things and then you reach up into a clammy wad of hair on the shoulder.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

That's April.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

And the same goes for men too. We don't want to reach up into clammy wad of hair.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

We don't want a clammy wad of hair on a okay. Ladies, take note. But I I was saying in on a serious but also not serious note. Um, I was with a friend named Sarah this weekend in Seoul. I sort of take the time to lay over in Seoul before I head back to the remote island of Jeju. And she's a Korean adoptee, and we're both kind of in this like single again dating phase, you know, finding ourselves. And there is this moment, or there was for us, you know, we've talked about this before, like only white guys around and our neighborhoods, and you know, like what what was the ideal beauty standard that we saw on TV, blah, blah, blah. You know, tail is old as old as time that we all talk about. And then there was a moment for each of us where it clicked over into, oh, now I am seeing more Asian men. And now I live in Korea and I see Korean men all the time. And there, there, there has been a click. So to answer your question, Claire, yeah, I mean, six foot tall, white guy with a beard, right? That you know, those were the men who were in my orbit and who like were hitting on me. And so therefore, you know, I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

And now I I can't ever, I don't think I can ever go back.

SPEAKER_04 9:05

I now identify as only wanting hairless Asian men. But Buffalo Cloud is great because it reminds me of Hallmark movies, which are do all feature white men. But you know, the the love and the and the being romantic in you know, in the country fireside chat with the bear skin rug and the log cabin. You know, it just is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Well, having a Korean lumberjack, that's representation. Maybe that could be the next hallmark. You know, Korea's very popular right now. Korean rednecks.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

There was just uh there was just a um an adopte-ee that was on like some sort of country music competition thing. There's a Korean adopte-e that was just on a country music competition, and uh he sings country music, and so like it's you know, there's there's definitely representation out there. I think his name is Cody. Um, I didn't watch the series, but uh yeah, he's he's a CAD and he's out there singing country music.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

So I love it. That's very cool. I I love stereotypes. I do. I I do. I I know because they can be silly, they can be serious. So I I actually I went to Chat GBT to look up what are some Asian stereotypes? And Chat GBT, love it, hate it, indifferent, whatever you are about it. It was really funny because I just use it as a tool, just like Google. And I said, give me some Asian stereotypes in the West. And it was very polite. Oh, well, the model minority, and this, you know. And I said, Okay, cool. I know I you're being very polite, but give it to me. Give me the the good, the bad, the ugly, the inappropriate. Um, I said, I'm not, I'm using it to make a point. Like, I I am not actually I am Asian, like I'm telling I'm arguing with ChatGBT. Chat GBT was like, I understand what you're trying to do, but I am not going to give you in an inappropriate form. So that being said, I thought for our listeners and for our folks viewing on YouTube, you can say yes and or raise your hand, probably both, to the following, and then we can talk about it. Okay. So Nate, Claire, April, are you good at math? Hell no. I used to be.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I not now, like, I used to be on like the oh god, the the math teams and all that stuff for competition and wow, look at you, April.

SPEAKER_05 11:47

I'm impressed. I was yeah, Nate, what about you?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Um, so I took AP calc and AP trigonometry. Now, here is the caveat to that is that everybody in my school, and I'm gonna out everybody that graduated from my high school in 2000, well, in the year 2000 and in 2001, because we all cheated off of one person in both classes. Everybody cheated off of a guy named Nat. Nat was probably one of the smartest kids in our class. Uh, he was a year younger than me. Also took these same math classes. Our teacher, who was the same teacher for both classes, uh, Trig and Calculus, would inexplicably just leave the room. She was very flighty, not very focused at times, and she would just leave. She was a little bit older, and everybody would then turn to Nat, rush him, get the answers, and then go back. I will be honest with you. I don't know that I actually did any of my homework or took any of my tests for those classes. I'm 95% sure I copied all of them from Nat. And we all passed. That's the thing, is that we passed and was Nat Asian? No, Nat was like the nerdy white dude. He's just like a little nerdy white dude. Um and you know, super nice because he let everybody cheat off of him. He didn't like fight or argue with us. Everybody's like, nah, what did you get for 15? What did you get for 16? Nat, just give us your answers. He's like, okay, and he just hand us the you know his his school his homework, and we would just all have to bribe?

SPEAKER_05 13:42

You didn't have to bribe that?

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, like I said, like in and nobody, nobody did their work except for Nat. I'm telling you, nobody actually passed that class. He was the only one.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Like, this teacher isn't noticing that every single one of her students has the exact same like work, you know, for this math pro again.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

She would just I'll put it this way. She once bragged to us that she took belly dancing in college as a class.

SPEAKER_05 14:15

Okay, that's a brag. I would uh impress. It was a solid brag. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

However, you gotta look at this uh from the lens of a 11th and 12th grader, and she's probably at the time in her mid to late 50s. You're just like, I I don't really want to picture my trig teacher belly dancing, and so like why not? I just yeah, she just did not um did not project the the image of what you would think a traditional belly dancer would be.

SPEAKER_05 14:53

Oh come on now. That's a flex. That's a flex in my book, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

But she, yeah, like I mean, she told everybody, and you know, it was like I said, it was uh, you know, she would just leave. And it was bad because some some uh our classmates would be like, Hey, um I'm I'm missing something or I need something. Can you go to the office and get it for us? And she'd be like, Oh yeah, I'll be right back, and she'd just leave the room and we would all copy the test or copy the homework for the day. Um yeah, I did not do any work in either of those two classes, so yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:32

I was in the lowest possible math class in college. I barely passed my math in high school, and once I got to college, I had to like retake those remedial math classes just because I had to get in those core classes. And the funny thing was, everyone in my class thought I think I was the only Asian person in my math classes, and everyone else thought I was super smart just because I'm Asian, right? So they're always trying to bribe me to get my notes or to I don't know, like to get me to tell them the answers. And I'm like, okay, so I was there like not actually taking bribes, but okay, so my math class was all football players because I guess none of them could pass either. So they're all looking to me to try to get my notes and to try to study and cheat off of me, and the joke's on them because I didn't know anything, but they were all trying to get to me, and their way to do it was to I guess try to like date me or to sleep with me. So I had all the football players trying to trying to date me, and um, yeah, the joke was on them because I didn't know shit. Nothing.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

And that's why you don't stereotype kids.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

And I I want to have some sort of opinion about what Nate did in high school, but on the other hand, did you ever use trigonometry or calc in your entire life? Like, no. So but kids, if you're listening, cheat, don't cheat. Don't cheat, do your homework or do drugs.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Honestly, reading is the only course that you really need to invest in. Just read. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

What about string instruments? Did anyone play the cello or the violin or the or or the oboe? I played piano.

SPEAKER_05 17:30

I played piano. Were you forced into it or did you volunteer?

SPEAKER_04 17:36

I liked it and was good at it, but didn't know that I was good at it because when you can do something, you don't know that it's good, right? And I was such a stressed-out hotball of mess and anxiety and you know, perfectionism when I was in high school that I ended up quitting.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

10 years of piano lessons, guys. I used to be so good. I could play like all the things the ragtime, the entertainer, the moats.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

Yeah, I don't remember anything anymore. It's thousands of dollars. Thousands of dollars my mother spent on the train.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

I'm sure it's still in there somewhere. If if uh if you had to. Um I bet if you had the music in front of you, you'd be able to play it.

SPEAKER_04 18:15

I played another instrument though in the marching band. Would anyone like to guess? Trumpet.

SPEAKER_05 18:27

The ukulele?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Is there a ukulele of the marching band? I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

The flute. Everyone does. Everyone does always guess flute, and I always say, How dare you? This one time at man camp. No, I I was the head drummer of my marching band. I played the snare drum. Yeah, I led all the boys and I led all the band. It was a very small band. Um, but I did it because I was in the the pit playing like the xylophone, the bells, because for some reason my mom really pushed hard. You should join marching band. And I really thought she thought, okay, if I'm very scared of my teenage girl going to she could get into sex, drugs, and rock and roll. So instead, let's get her into the marching band. And little did she know, like the marching band people were hooking up with each other the most, like they were doing the most sex drugs in rock and roll in high school. But anyway, so my freshman year, one of the older guys, his name was Bill Chase. I'll always remember that. He was a junior, and he was, you know, he was six foot tall, didn't have a beard yet, but probably someday what would have, he probably does today. And he was like, You're little and a woman and Asian. You can't play the drums. Now he didn't say this, but that was the that was implied in his tone. So then I was like, I'll show you. Because back then I was very much like, if you dare, if you told me I couldn't do something, I was like, okay, now yeah, I'm gonna do it. And so by the time I was a senior, I was a head drummer. He had already long graduated. But I think he knew. He knew he was wrong.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Word got back to him. Yeah, absolutely. He was he was um taking that for sure.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

I was the center of the universe. Absolutely. I like ever calling out all these people from high school. Matt, Bill. Claire, do you remember any of these football guys' names who were like trying to bribe you? Not a one. No.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Oh my god, I bet they remember you though.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Well, she helped them pass so they could keep playing, I'm sure. The coach probably no, they did not.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

If they passed, it was not because of me. Oh, okay, that's right. That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

Are any of you bad drivers?

SPEAKER_05 20:52

Define bad driver. I mean, if we're talking about speeding tickets, I'm a very bad, very bad driver. But if we're talking about like um accidents, no accidents, I've never I've never um killed someone on the road. I've never done anything like really, really bad on the road, but like, yeah, like I've sped.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Um no vehicular manslaughter is clear speed.

SPEAKER_05 21:23

Well, what's your definition, April, of a bad driver? Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Would you want to ride in the car with that person as the driver, I guess? You know what I mean? Like, are you stomping your foot for the break or like clutching your pearls and grabbing onto whatever? I mean, I think I'm a cautious driver, is what I have been told. I need to be a little bit more aggressive because you can be too cautious, and then that can make you a bad driver. Um, if you're too tentative, it's like choose one. Um, being in Ohio, I think, has helped with that though, because you you Just have to mean it. Whatever choice you're making, that's the one you're going with, and there are no take backsies.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

Here's a tip to be more aggressive. You have to think about it like when you're coming up, you know, like going towards someone and you're like not sure who's got the right way or who's gonna go first. You have to think like, I've got the bigger balls. I've got the bigger balls, and just go. That's that's my tip.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Do they know that you have the bigger balls though? They know when you when you pull a buy them.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

A feeling that Claire actually may not be a good driver.

SPEAKER_05 22:46

I'm an excellent driver, Nate.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Just that answer alone. Now I was a speed demon in college, like I had so many speeding tickets. It was bad. Um, and then then I discovered cruise control. And cruise control has probably saved me a lot of money and time. Um just said it and forget it, especially adaptive cruise control now, with the you know, the way cars will adjust to you know the speed of the car in front of you. So that's that's really kind of like helped me rein myself in. Because if it's just up to me and my my pedal, like we're we're gonna go as fast as we can. Um and yeah, going because I want to get there as fast as I can and make up time. It's like me against the clock. If it says it's gonna take you know two hours, I want to see if I can get there in less time and how much less time. Um, but you know, if cruise control is available, I've learned that it's probably my best friend.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

I was just in San Francisco and saw the self-driving cars. They were weird. Very good drivers. They were very good drivers. The self-driving cars. I will, I, I will tell you, living and driving in Korea, I know why people, I know why the Asians get this bad reputation. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying how it is, which is that Koreans drive exactly the way they walk in crowded places. Now we're gonna get to this because I do want to hear about um Nate's big news. But if you've been in Korea, and if anyone listening has been in Korea, I think you're gonna have a light bulb moment if you've never thought about this before. When you are walking down the street in the United States of America and someone is coming at you, there could be sometimes occasionally a oh, I'm going right, you're going left, like, oh, oh, like, you know, how do you get out of each other's way? But it's pretty rare. In Korea, they just keep on walking. You like I just I just learn to stop and I do the same thing when I'm driving, which is probably terrible. And I've been told it's not good, and that's a whole thing, but they drive the same way they walk. Like, I'm just going, oh, here's an intersection. I'm just gonna go through it because I assume that no one else is coming. And I like Koreans don't hold doors for you. That's a very Western thing. They don't get out of your way. I think there's a little bit like kids will sometimes get out of your way. Cause I think there could be like a subconscious age thing, like I'm gonna respect the older person. But in general, like on a sidewalk, I will just stop and let someone go around me.

SPEAKER_05 25:45

You're gonna love Vietnam. You're gonna love Vietnam, Jenna. When you come, you're gonna be like, okay, we're gonna cross the street and they don't stop for no one. Yeah, it's just playing Frogger. You just kind of dodge the traffic and hope you live.

SPEAKER_04 26:00

Yeah, I think that there it yeah, and so I I yeah, it's it's a whole thing. And driving is um is something over here. You really gotta get used to the the nounchie of the way the road rules are because there are unspoken rules like when you're on the highway and you know, you can kind of like guess and anticipate where people are, you know, what it's a whole new thing over here. It probably took me a year and a half to really feel comfortable driving over here. It's it's crazy. And I Southeast Asia, I wouldn't even try.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

I wouldn't even try. Oh no, no, I I'm not ever gonna try either. I like getting the grab motorbikes. I get to ride on the back seat and just wrap my arms around the grab driver, and I get my hugs all day long, and they get me from my house to wherever I need to go, and it's like a dollar or less every ride. Come on, you can't ride for cheaper than that.

SPEAKER_04 26:59

Um have you ever been mistaken for another Asian? Or has someone else been mistaken for you?

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:09

Because Nate, I feel like you are a pretty distinct-looking person.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

No, not to white people, no? No. So I used to sell appliances and electronics in Nashville, and there was this guy named Terry, and Terry is I believe he's Samoan. And he's kind of a short, stocky guy, probably has maybe like 75 pounds on me, big round face, super nice dude, right? Um, you know, like and if you put us beside each other, like we don't it's Bert and Ernie. We don't look the same, right? Clearly, we're not related in any way. We, you know, are not of the same people, like there is a clear difference. When I tell you how many times I had to tell customers my name was not Terry, or he would be like, Yeah, one of your people came in and thought I was you, you know, I helped him out whenever I explained I wasn't Nate. So, like, yeah, you would you would think, you know, um, but no, yeah. So a lot of a lot of people just they just see a brown face and just kind of meld us all together as one one person, and so one brown face looks like another, and that's that's that's how they go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:48

I I just when we were in Atlanta for last year's con conference, I did not have my driver's license on me, and I used I used Claire's passport to get into the bar.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Can you remember that?

SPEAKER_01 29:03

We were alive, and I was like, oh my god, Claire, give her your passport.

SPEAKER_05 29:07

Jenna, I've been using that trick ever since college, before I was legal to get into bars. I've been using other people's passports. They've been, yeah. I mean, come on, white people can't tell us apart, and we can use that.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

It would never have occurred to me. Like, honestly, it never would have occurred to me. I'm such a rule follower, but a student I so April was it using whoever suggested it, like, oh yeah. And you know, looking anyway, it's just like a courtesy, like, okay, look. But I was like, yeah, you gotta use racism to your advantage, guys.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

We we laughed so hard at that that night. That was hilarious. Because also, like, Claire wasn't that far behind Jenna, and like it took almost half of the group before it dawned on me to say, Claire, give her your passport. It was like Jenna, two people, then Claire. So if he was even looking at the name, you know.

SPEAKER_05 29:59

Right, but yeah, we all still got to have a great time. Um, it was a great time. Such a good time.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

It was, but so here's the here's the inverse to that is that for those of us that grew up in uh predominantly white communities, we also then stick out like everybody in that community remembers who we are. Like, and so I don't know if this has happened to you, but you go back to quote unquote your hometown, and people just instantly know who you are and start talking to you as if you were best friends in school, and you're like, dude, I don't remember you, yeah. You know, and pretty much the only reason why they remember you is because you were the Asian kid that went to school. Like it it works against you in that fact. It's just like, oh, you just stick out, and like because you stick out, people just instantly remember who you are. Meanwhile, you could give you know two craps, and you're just like, Yeah, man, that was a whole in my hometown.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

It was me and a Taiwanese girl, and her family immigrated and owned the Chinese restaurant in town. She had the Taiwanese American, like that Taiwanese English accent. So she and I would joke all the time, how do people not tell just by talking to us that we're not the right person? We both had brown faces. We somehow managed to always dye our hair the same unintentionally. And she's like, That you have a very Appalachian Logan accent. I do not, and I'm over here being like, Yeah, that's not me.

SPEAKER_04 31:47

Other Asians also stereotype other Asians, which is I don't know what to call it. I can't think of the appropriate adjective, but one of my funniest stories was small town, Hellertown, Pennsylvania, uh in east, southeast Pennsylvania, which was the closest town to where I grew up in the woods. And I remember I parked my car. I had to double park for some reason in what, like a, you know, one of the strip mall places there. And I run in and it's a Chinese food restaurant. And I said, I'm so sorry. I have to leave my car here for like five minutes. I'll be right back. And the guy said, Oh, do you work at the dry cleaner like down the strip?

SPEAKER_03 32:33

I was so young that it didn't register with me. But I was like, I just like, why is this guy asking me this?

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Like, no, I don't know. And anytime I get my nails done, it hasn't happened within the past probably 10 years, but I used to get my nails done and people would they would sit and the nail technician would be like, Are you Korean? And I would always think, maybe they're asking me because they are also Korean. But I think I just do have very like Korean features. And they were and I would and I would say, Oh yes, I am. Are you? And they'd always be like, No, no, we're Vietnamese or whatever. And so I was I wonder why they're asking. And then I had a friend, white girlfriend, who lived in Thailand for a long time. So when she when I told her I was moving here, she was like, Oh, you know, a lot of Asia thinks that Korea is, you know, they're the top-notch Asians, you know, if there's a hierarchy, Korea's up there.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

I always thought the white people were so obsessed with knowing what kind of Asian I am, but the Asians are more obsessed. They have to know. They have to know.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

The nationalism is real over there. Like, yeah, even with the cooking show that I hosted the other day, and it's a different brand. It's not racism like we see it here in the US. It is truly nationalism, and it is because they are still living the consequences of what occupation and war was between especially China, Japan, and Korea, right? And she made the comment of, yeah, Koreans don't like Chinese people. And she said, I'm not being racist, I'm just teaching about my culture. And, you know, I laughed in the moment because I understood what she was saying, and her husband was just appalled because he was like, You people don't understand, like you're you're going to put out this false representation of Korean people and yourself, and they're gonna think you're a bad person. You know, her English isn't great, so it was difficult for her to fully elaborate and explain there in Korea. They kind of feel like they're past hating the Japanese people because there's been enough time past, they've mended fences, but she was like, But China, it's still happening.

SPEAKER_04 34:47

It is real over here. My kids who are six and nine and go to school with all Koreans, my kids have come home and said derogatory things about Chinese people. And I'm like, oh God. Oh God. And I've actually I've said to a couple of my Korean adoptee friends who have come over who are going to meet their birth families, Jenna, what do I need to know? And one of the things I tell them is your family's gonna be super bigoted about Chinese people, it's going to just come out in conversation. And a couple have come back and said, I'm so glad you prepared me. Because it's just, it's it just it's like part of their daily conversation. You can't say nothing can happen over here almost. Like the the air quality could be bad. And it and my Korean friends will be like, but whatever. But I'm so serious, like the weather could be bad. It's China.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_04 35:42

I mean it's not funny, but um, but yeah, it's been fascinating to sort of like watch.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Yeah. I I think, like you said, it's not funny, but for those of us who grew up Asian American, you kind of have we created almost a stereotype, and or at least I did in my mind, that all Asians had to love each other because we're all Asian, right? Like we shouldn't be. Right. And then you grow up and you learn, like, oh, you're the wrong Asian, so they don't want anything to do with you. So, like when I was in college age and there were like Japanese exchange students, there was a reason why they looked at me kind of funny, probably the accent too, because I was too Americanized, and that's where like the banana thing comes in, because you are also not the right type of Asian that way, but yeah, it's it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

Not even getting into like skin tone, because you know, when I was the only Asian I knew, I thought all people have like had like a darker complexion in Asia. Not true, you know, all the hierarchy of like lighter skin, there's skin bleaching over here. I mean, it's whole I'm very aware that I'm tanner, so I walk around like trying to and you're not even that tan.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

I'm darker than you. And somebody was like, Oh yeah, you're so dark. And I'm like, this is my winter color, she's pale. Like I'm a summer coke yet. Like, what do you mean I'm dark?

SPEAKER_04 37:07

I know. I had a real moment though. Like when I met my birth father, it's like not, I didn't obsess about it, but it crossed my mind. Like, I went, you know, we're just meeting for the first time. There is this beauty standard. Like, maybe he won't think that I'm beautiful, you know, because I am like a darker crazy, and I should, he's a farmer, and he's like so he's in the sun all day long, and so like very dark skinned. Plus, we're from I don't know if I actually don't know if this is a thing, but we're from the south, we're from Chola, so like yes, we're we're darker skinned because we're from I have no idea if that's true. Anyway, I kid, but um but it did it cross my mind. Like, I don't know. I grew up in America where you want to be tan, you don't want to necessarily be pale.

SPEAKER_05 37:48

The skin bleaching thing is in Southeast Asia too. Thailand, Vietnam, it yeah, there's everyone it like you said, like the nationalism, but also the the classism, you know. It's like you find that all over the world in India, you know, the darker the skin, the lower class. Yeah, and so it's it's a thing everywhere, Jenna.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Oh, did you guys hear about the Koreans and making comments about uh Malay? Was it Malaysians? It was not a case for our people.

SPEAKER_05 38:24

Yeah, I was so embarrassed for us last time. I was just cringing, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

April, do you want to give a summary for people who haven't heard about so I think it it started around a concert. Some Koreans traveled to Malaysia for a K-pop concert, and they just got racist and colorist up, and they basically called Malaysians monkeys. You know, there's for those who do not know how deeply rooted the nationalism and colorism amongst Asian countries go, a lot of Southeast Asian countries are derogatorily referred to as jungle Asians because they are living in a much more tropical climate compared to like say China or Korea, and and they do have darker skin tones. It feeds into that classism that is still very strong in in Asia. But yeah, it was not a good look for for Korean people. Because it's weird because I feel like there's a lot of movements where Korea is moving forward in some ways, like with the 4B movement.

SPEAKER_04 39:30

You bad eggs sometimes. They're probably the same people who go blame China for the weather, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

And and probably that too, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Okay, I'm sorry. We we we're the only cats pod. We can't talk about Asian stereotypes without talking about the Asian stereotype, right?

SPEAKER_05 39:49

What are you talking about, Jenna?

SPEAKER_04 39:51

Oh, I'm just I'm just talking, wondering if we don't have to share names. But what there are two very distinct stereotypes about men and women when it comes to Asians broad sweeping strokes where Asian women are submissive and quiet, and Asian men have small penises. But I don't know. Are these stereotypes that you guys have heard before? Because I feel like I grew up hearing them. They were very overt or you know, sometimes not overt, but just sort of under the lair. What has been your experience with both of these things?

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Not true. Not true.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

I want to hear from Nate.

SPEAKER_05 40:34

I want to hear from Nate.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

I mean, I don't know. I think it's like I've heard them. Um I don't know, like I don't know, I just don't know what because what's the alternative to like try and prove somebody wrong? So like if somebody says that, what is your recourse in that moment? Do you know what I'm saying? So like there's not a good recourse. And that's why people say it, because they know that like for you to disprove something like that, like you would have to do something outrageous. And they're betting on you not to do something outrageous.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

I I mean I think it comes in on a serious note, it comes back to the masculinity thing, right? It's it's a very, you know, that type of conversation. But I just want to put out for the record, it's not true. First of all, uh, I don't think Claire and April and I are quiet.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Yeah, would you call a submissive night?

SPEAKER_05 41:47

Well, we also grew up in the West. Okay, so there's that.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

There's true.

SPEAKER_05 41:51

Because if you're talking about the stereotype submissiveness, like that actually is part of the patriarchy. And had we grown up in Korea, I mean, I'm willing to bet we would just conform to that submissiveness, you know, that archetype that is required for the concept of the family and the the husband kind of leads and controls what the family does. And then there's the um the wife and the the females who are submissive to the husband, but then actually it's the mother of the son, I think, who is in control of it all. So you can argue it's a patriarch, but it's also, I think, a matriarch. Um, I don't know if that's typical in all Korean families, but from my friends who grew up in Korea, like Korean Korean, that's the way it was. Um, but I've definitely played into the stereotype of a submissive female. And I don't know, I've asked myself this for years and years and years. Me being raised in the West, and I'm not that kind of person. Like I'm all about um gender equality, and I'm a feminist, okay, but I still play into that stereotype. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

I would argue that even with me growing up in Appalachia, a lot of that submissive gender role teaching was kind of it was it was kind of like woven into the everyday grooming of sorts. The man goes off to the coal mines and he makes good money and his hands look like this, so your hands can look like this, and all those things that are like plastered along the back of their F 150s as they're driving down the road. I remember when I did nails hearing all these stories of these wives coming in talking about how oh yeah, well, like I I don't do anything, I just stay home and when it's good, it's good. But then what happens when he don't want you no more? Because I've had women sit. My chair and be like, I don't know what to do. I graduated high school and I never got a job. I never got any education. I I completely depended on him and I don't know how to start over. Absolutely devastating. And those women exist because we were raised, even in a Western culture, to be this abyssive type of woman, especially in my marriage, leaned into that. I think it was after my divorce, doing some inner work when I kind of meant it a little bit more. Because I always said I'd never be that woman. Girl, go out there and get a job, make your money. Don't don't be, but then it's very easy to become that woman because you don't realize how deeply rooted some of those things are in your head. You tell yourself, well, this is what a good wife would do. I'm not a quitter. I wasn't raised to just give up on my relationship.

SPEAKER_05 44:54

And I think it's sometimes it gets confusing between the submissive stereotype and um feminine energy, you know, because I think that's like a thing, well, um, a man wants a feminine partner, you know, you want someone to make you feel like a man, but I don't think that necessarily means that you have to be submissive. Like I know plenty of um couples who they definitely are very um manly or feminine, they have the masculine energy, the feminine energy, but I think it's like very amazing when I can see you kind of switch it in, you can switch it on and off, and the man can kind of be a little bit more fluid into the feminine, and the woman can be a little bit more fluid into the masculine. And I don't think that has anything to do with submissiveness. Um, but I think kind of just owning your power and being comfortable with that.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Ooh, how much does people pleasing come into play here?

SPEAKER_04 45:58

Me doing no research or reading or unscientific anything. I I think there is so much in any of these conversations, society and just society, how we take in all of those messages from birth or from the time that we enter a society, and also how we protect ourselves, like split decisions that we make in the moment based on survival, whether it's emotional survival or physical safety. I think later we can look back and say, Oh, I should have acted this way, or why didn't I? But in the moment, there is, I think those two things are so powerful messages that we get from society and also our own survival. So I know that for me, I I absolutely like I know I am a short, small, and for a lot of my most of my career, I was very young Asian woman. And when I'm out and like if you think that I'm not like playing up the, oh, like what do you think? To like get what I want, I'll do that. You're crazy because I know I know that I do it, and it's it's I know basically, you know, I'm not thinking about it consciously, of course, but I know that that's gonna play well because of the society we live in. I know how I look, I know that I'm talking to a bunch of like middle-aged men in my career, and I know that this is the goal that I have, and I know this is how I'm gonna achieve it because those are the skills and the what I have. So some of it is how often do we play into it as well for our own benefit, but also survival. It's it's a lot of different moving parts. And if we continue doing it, are we continuing to play into stereotypes that are just kind of well?

SPEAKER_05 47:43

Let's talk about the other gender stereotype that you had introduced. That's not true. It is not true.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

Some research, not not purposeful research for that purpose, but in my research, it's not true. In your experience, the insight for science, for science, and to support our male counterparts, we just want to put it out there. Not only is it not true, but it's I would say leaning towards the other end of the spectrum. I'm not sure where the stereotype came from, but I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Um, honestly, the smallest that I've ever seen was not, no, I haven't seen a lot of Asian men, probably two in my entire life, but of all of two of them. Of all two of them, they were all two of them have been very good. The smallest actually came from a black guy and a white guy.

SPEAKER_05 48:40

Yeah, I have to agree with you, April. I mean, not like I've done tons of research as well, but I'm not one to like take one person or one little sample out of the whole pool and say, okay, that's the norm for everyone. Um, so I have to go and test this out because like that, like so yeah, so for science, yes, for science, we have to do things for science. And it's very important because I could because I am the kind of person like I want to do the experiment. So I have the hypothesis. I learned this in eighth grade science, and then you have to go test out the hypothesis, and then you have to go and do the experiment, and you have to come back with your findings and say was it true or not true? So the two the two races that I hear the the stereotypes about are Asian and black. And I think we know what we're talking about. There's the one end of the spectrum is Asian, and the other end of the spectrum is black, and so I had to go and test out this theory, you know. This so unlike with you, April, it's not true. There's like plenty on this spectrum, this end of the spectrum, and on this end of the spectrum. And you know, let's just say that maybe the biggest was not an Asian, but also the smallest was not an Asian.

unknown 50:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 50:05

And so it kind of I I did my own experiment and I busted through that, those myths. And um, I have to say, right now, I don't really give enough what your size or your color, whatever it is, as long as you have that big D energy, that's what I'm about.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Oh yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

Claire, I would say our friend, our friend Sonny, friend of the pod, he uh he is a scientist, and he would say, absolutely, you can't have a small sample size. You can't be like, oh, five, and now I've made a decision. You need to have a good pool of controlled variables.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

Yeah, absolutely. And and you have to have like different controls and different variables, you gotta you know, do the different mix and match arrangements in cold weather, in warm weather, you gotta test out the environment, right?

SPEAKER_05 50:58

All the name of science.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Is it different like with alcohol, without alcohol, like early in the morning, late at night, food? Does food in have any kind of influence?

SPEAKER_04 51:09

Grower versus shower.

SPEAKER_05 51:11

Yeah, the temperature in the room, like yes, yes, all very important.

unknown 51:16

I think that's very important.

SPEAKER_04 51:18

I know. Well, you'll have to get back to us, Claire, because I mean, I don't know, like, am I there I there are no black guys in Korea, and and now I'm in a committed relationship. Like, is my is my chance for that portion of the experiment over? I don't know. So Claire, you will have to do for science for us. You you'll have to do the research. You too.

SPEAKER_05 51:38

Jenna, nothing's impossible. Okay, you just have to use your imagination and be open-minded. That's all I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

Open-minded kind of encouragement that we like. See, Nate, women like to validate, encourage. But it's like it's not impossible, Jenna. You get out there, girl.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Before we run out of time, are you gonna go to a gingerbong when you go to Korea? Nate.

SPEAKER_04 52:04

Yes, you can get a corndog on the street and then go to a ginger bong.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

I don't know what a gingerbong is.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

It's the spa where you can go. We talked about it in one of the episodes.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Yeah, not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

No, no.

SPEAKER_04 52:19

Uh you are gonna try a corn dog, right? Corn dog on a stick. Very good.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Oh, for sure. Definitely going to try food and stuff like that. So um, but no, I have zero plans to go to a Korean spa in Korea or in the United States. That is still a no-fly zone. Um, you know, I'll I'll be staying away from the spas while I'm in Korea.

SPEAKER_04 52:46

Yeah. Yeah. How are you feeling about potentially coming over here soon?

SPEAKER_00 52:51

Um, it's a weird uh set of mixed emotions, honestly. Um it's kinda you know, not sure what to expect. It's for the first week. I don't really like I have choices, but like, you know, there's an itinerary that sure is planned out, and so you know, after the first week or so, um it's kind of already mapped out for me. So I'll probably just kind of be on autopilot then. So like after the first week, um, that's probably when the exploring will really start happening, and that's when the trip to me, you know, will will really take off and things like that. But I don't know. I I expect to be emotional about it, I expect to be numb, I expect to be angry and frustrated, all the things that um again, it's it's a weird thing. Like it's not, it's really not natural when you think about um the grand scheme of stuff of like taking somebody from you know their country and then supporting like having them grow up for 40 plus years in another country language culture and then suddenly taking them back there. And it's just it's not a it's not it's not natural, like none of this is natural. And so you know, so any feelings that I have, that'll probably be the most natural. I'm sure it'll be exciting, I'm sure I'll have lots of fun, I'm sure way too much Korean food, jet lag for so much of it and stuff like that. Um, but it'll also be emotional and you know, I have no doubt that I'll probably try a couple times, things like that. I do plan on trying to do a video series where I just recorded.

SPEAKER_04 54:42

I think it's a great opportunity to get your airline flight paid for. And if you're able to delay your ticket, like if they are not strict about how long you can stay in country having paid for your ticket, then take full advantage of that. Because I think it is a very specific government-run program. So there'll be some propaganda and Korean national stuff, but you'll be able to sort through all of that and just like use it for what it is, which is I got a free ticket over here, I got some rooms, and I'm gonna use it to my full advantage because I think that most of the processing will come afterwards, and yeah, just drink drink the soju, eat the food, take full advantage of being there, and hopefully I can fly up and see you. But it'd be fun.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

Yeah, um it'll be it'll be fun. Like I said, who knows? Um you know, that's that's part of the adventure is that you don't until you land, till you get there.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

So see what happens. Very exciting. And how long are you gonna try to stay after the first week?

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Uh so I think my so just talking to some people. Um, I think the expectation is that if you're in the States, you're gonna fly out probably Saturday. You'll get there Sunday because their itinerary starts Monday. And so their itinerary runs Monday to Friday. My goal is to be there at least Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, maybe even Thursday, just because I know technically you kind of kind of gain a half a day coming back to the states, so why not try and maximize the time there? So if I can be there until Thursday, come back to the states and why not? You know, try and try and work it that way. Um so yeah, that'll you know, that'll kind of be the plan. Um, as of now, I don't have anything set in stone. So if you are listening to this and you are in Korea and you're like, hey, I want to hang out with Nate, drop me an instant Instagram message and we can connect and um, you know, see what happens. But I don't personally I don't want to fill up that time with a bunch of stuff to do. Like I'm gonna just go walk around and get fucking lost and just you know check out some things and run into whoever I run into and just kind of go from there. I don't I don't really have a plan. I'm not gonna do I don't really think I'm gonna do a birth search. Um, I think this is just kind of me exploring and you know going through the paces of just being in Korea.

SPEAKER_04 57:30

I know that's so smart. And I actually tell people all the time not to overplan. Like just go sit on a bench in Seoul. Just be there. Yeah, it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Perfectly fine. It'll be fine.

SPEAKER_04 57:47

It's exciting. Once this airs, I will have already been to Vietnam just hanging out with Claire and ridden on the back of the motorbike, hopefully not died, and it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_05 58:00

It'll be fine. It'll be so much fun, and I just have to say, you're gonna love it. Like, I have so much I'm filled with so much joy. I go out for a walk after dinner along the Han River every night, and there's just people out, there's families out, they're singing, they're doing karaoke right next to the river. They're terrible, but I love it. They're just dancing. I mean, there's they're so cute. There's all these people just dancing, like on the sidewalk, and um there's just so much love, and just I don't know, I can't even explain it. You'll experience it. And our friend Aaron just got here uh yesterday, so looking forward to hanging out with with you both, and um, we have some other mutual friends that are here, so they're excited for you to come as well.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

I'm so excited, and Aaron is a very good karaoke slash nori bonner. Yes, we're gonna have some fun, and I keep seeing all the food the two of you are posting. So I am not gonna eat for the next 11 days in preparation, very healthy way to fast. I have a new bikini, and Aaron was like, well, here's what you do, Jenna. You get pictures of you and Claire together on the beach in your bikinis and make sure that like you haven't eaten yet and make sure Claire has eaten, and then it will all balance out.

SPEAKER_05 59:23

Oh, believe me, I don't even have to eat. I've got my meadow belly. I mean, come on. So we're gonna be taking pictures from here up. Let's just say that it'll be a podcast Zoom call, picture vaganza.

SPEAKER_04 59:37

Meanwhile, Aaron's doing like a hundred, you know, sit-ups and a hundred hours of planks and whatever. So he can be, he can, it'll be like his torso in the picture and clear in my like head. Great body imaging sheets. We joke, we joke.

SPEAKER_05 59:58

I can't wait. I can't wait. It'll be soon. Um, I am off to um in a couple of hours, um, heading out to Thailand. So I'm gonna be hanging with the monks and we're gonna be doing walking meditations and um all of the things that monks do. I'm a little scared because it's all vegetarian food, and I hear that they don't feed you that much. So I don't know. I'm I might be starving when I come back. We'll see, but I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

How long are you gonna be there?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:33

Um, I'll be there for a little over a week. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:37

Amazing! So you're gonna be so you're gonna be super skinny, man.

unknown 1:00:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:46

I need to go stay at a temple. All right, I'm gonna look up a temple real quick.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Oh Jenna, you look so still. What happened? Well, I became a monk for a few days.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:00

The monks. It was the monks.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

I want to go.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:05

Because we're talking about traveling. I just want to give a shout out to aka San Francisco and Sacramento, who just did a joint wine tasting at the first Korean American winemakers winery in Napa Valley. So I just got back literally last night from that, and it was so lovely. It was like a nice collapse collab. Um, and it was beautiful. And Napa Valley is one of my favorite places on the planet, and it was really neat. It was really anybody is in Napa Valley, Innovatis, Innova, I'll put it in the show notes, is um a wonderful winemaker, Korean American, and she immigrated there when she was like 27, and she's been there like in the States longer than she was in Korea. Yeah, she decided to start making wine, and it's really good. Yeah, and she was great, and she's actually planning like a trip back to Korea and like bringing people. There's just like people who want to give us, you know, a taste of Korean culture, and so it was pretty cool. So shout out to Cecil Park. She was recently featured in Forbes magazine. She's very kick-ass. And so, yeah, over there in Napa. But anyway, aka San Francisco and Sacramento did like a really cool event, and it was really cool to be there and meet meet all those folks welcoming this East Coast gal. So that was fun.