Face It

A PhD Cosmetic Chemist Breaks Down The WORST and BEST “Viral” Skincare Products

• Clean Skin Club • Season 1 • Episode 5

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:10:03

The real reason your skincare routine might not be working.
In this episode of Face It, Bari sits down with Dr. Julian Sass — a cosmetic chemist and PhD known for breaking down skincare formulas online and reviewing hundreds of sunscreens — to separate what's actually effective from what's simply viral marketing.
Julian translates ingredient lists into real-world outcomes so you can finally shop smarter, cut through the noise, and stop wasting money on products that don't deliver.
This is an honest, no-fluff breakdown of skincare science — without the overwhelm.
We cover:

"Sass or Suss" — Julian reacts to the internet's most-hyped products in real time
What standout (and questionable) ingredients are actually doing to your skin
Whether "more ingredients" actually means a better product
What truly makes a formula bad for your skin
How to think about products that start with water
The truth about fragrance on labels and what it really means
The difference between "no fragrance" and "fragrance-free."
Why "clean beauty" claims can still be misleading or irritating
How to read an ingredient list without getting overwhelmed
Chemical vs. mineral SPF — the practical differences that actually matter
Why some sunscreens cause breakouts (and how to avoid them)
Whether higher SPF always matters
The truth about white cast, "clear/transparent" SPF claims, and combo products
The best SPF options for deeper skin tones with minimal to no white cast
Drugstore vs. luxury skincare — is there actually a difference?
Whether TikTok skincare hacks are helping or hurting most people
Julian's closing advice for anyone trying to shop smarter

Intro

SPEAKER_00

TikTok skincare hacks. Mostly helpful or harmful.

SPEAKER_01

There's so much more bad than the good. I've seen some crazy things. Some crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Celebrity skincare. Buy it or skip it. Just because it's viral doesn't mean it's good. Today we are joined by a cosmetic chemist who is ripping the label off of some of the most overhyped skincare on the internet.

SPEAKER_01

Spending a lot of money on a moisturizer is not necessary at all.

SPEAKER_00

Sunscreen is considered a drug in the US.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it's gonna give me cancer, all this stuff. It's like, well, no, none of that's true.

SPEAKER_00

So there's no data out there to say that sunscreen's harmful for your health.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00

I've heard a lot about this product.

SPEAKER_01

I personally don't like this product because it's a marketing machine. And I don't think it's a necessity. Oh my gosh. This changed people's lives.

SPEAKER_00

Sailmucin doesn't help support acne. There's no evidence for that. Absolutely not. What's one skincare myth you wish people would stop believing?

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, okay. Buying stuff that is labeled as clean is not going to always be better for your skin. If you could give one piece of advice, just put it on your skin.

SPEAKER_00

I haven't used it.

SPEAKER_01

What?

Meet Dr. Julian Sass

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Face It, the podcast that cuts through the noise of the beauty industry. I'm your host, Barry, and today we are putting these products to the test with someone that actually knows what's inside the bottle. My guest today is Dr. Julian Sass, a cosmetic chemist and PhD who's reviewed over 500 sunscreens and knows exactly what makes a formula work. He's one of the smartest voices on beauty TikTok and Instagram right now. If you've ever wondered whether your favorite product is more marketing than science, he's here to break it down. So, Julian, welcome to Face It.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much for having me, Embrace.

SPEAKER_00

I'm so excited to have you here. I feel like you just have so much knowledge and I can't wait to just pick your brain.

SPEAKER_01

I'm pummed. I'm pumped.

SPEAKER_00

Let's do it. All right. So

Viral product showdown

SPEAKER_00

I want to start with a little game. Okay. It's gonna be like a viral product showdown.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna grab the products really quick. All right. So here I have a bunch of viral products right now. I kind of want you to do some ingredient call-outs, some pros and cons, whether, you know, they're good for your skin, they're bad for your skin, maybe good for someone else's skin, bad for someone else's skin. Okay. And then we're gonna give a verdict at the end. It's gonna be either SAS approved or sus.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I love it.

SPEAKER_00

All right, ready?

SPEAKER_01

All right, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so let's start strong. We

Rhode Peptide Lip Treatment

SPEAKER_00

will start with the road, the road peptide lip treatment. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Thoughts.

SPEAKER_01

So I personally don't like this product. But that's why. But I it's just a texture thing, which is a very personal thing for me. Yeah. But so many other people love it. And I think that one of the issues that some people had with it was it got kind of grainy because when it would like get hot and cool down. And the reason for that was because in here there's shea butter.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And shea butter is made of different fatty acids that have different melting points. So when you heat it and then it cools down, some parts of it cool off faster than other parts of it. So you get so you get little grains that that happen in the formula. They just reformulated this, I think. So it is a little bit nicer now. They're using a different grade of shea butter. So hopefully that's better. So I think it's good. I think it is very marketed though, with the phone case and just everything. I don't think the formula is particularly like groundbreaking, but I think that because it's a marketing machine, then I think that that's been driving a lot of this. But the the the formula is fine, absolutely fine. Nothing that's like terrible about it, but like I don't personally love it. And I don't think it's a necessity that anyone like needs to have this product. But I mean when you have a phone case that's built for this, like, how can you say no for some people? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So another thing about just like lip balms in general, I feel like they're

What lip balms actually do

SPEAKER_00

not really talked about enough. Like if they're doing damage for your lips. What would you say like on that in general?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so there are some things that can be irritating in lip products. I mean, there's fragrances that and like flavors that can be irritating sometimes. Even the like mint or the vanilla, just the things that we like to have in lip products, can be irritating to some people. And the and the other thing that you want to make sure that you're doing is also wearing like sun protection on your lips as well as you're having your normal nice lip product. So those are kind of the main things that you gotta keep an eye out when you're doing lip products. But yeah, in in general, with a lot of lip products, because it's mostly like oils and butters and waxes and things like that, you wanna make sure that like you also that your lips are properly hydrated because when you're just putting on lip balm and it's just those oils that that are in there, you're not really like moisturizing your lips, you're just kind of like sealing in what's there. So that can also be why some people feel like, okay, I keep applying lip balm, but my lips don't feel like moisturized. So what I like to do is like in the morning get some like vastly or something to just like wet your lips and then put some lip product on top of it just to like actually seal in that moisture. So you're not just like reapplying over lips that are already dry, that now it's like, okay, it's dry but still greasy at the same time.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And we all want like our fun lip product. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Like for for me, when I see an unflavored, unstill lip balm, just like this is this is so boring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you want to have the fun, like I want to have like nice flavors in the night, nice scents or whatever. But also there's some people who just like, oh, that they all eat, they all irritate my lips, and that's just that's just not not for me. Like, I want to have my fun.

SPEAKER_00

So we can get away with our fun lip product if we may be Vaseline under.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

With without question.

SPEAKER_00

Easy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Rode peptide lip treatment, SAS approved or sus.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna say sus only because it's so heavily marketed, but the formula isn't groundbreaking at all.

SPEAKER_00

Got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

Glow Recipe Dew Drops

SPEAKER_00

Fair. Okay, let's move on. We're gonna do the glow recipe dewdrops.

SPEAKER_02

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00

So I've heard a lot about this product. I've never used it.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm so curious. Does it have that plumping effect that it says it does?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So this product, again, driven by marketing, but I think it's really nice at the same time because it's kind of like a makeup skincare hybrid because it gives a kind of it gives that plumping dewiness that you also have and also has that niacinamide, which can help, you know, brighten, help with breakouts, things like that. But I think that because it's packaged in a very fragranced, fun way, people don't treat it as like a treatment product. It's like, okay, it's purely for the aesthetics. No one thinks, okay, I'm gonna get like actual results from this. But they've done some consumer testing, like they've done all that work. So I think this is a nice product, but again, probably want to stay away if you have really sensitive skin because it does have fragrance and niacinamite can also be irritating for some people. And because for a lot of people, you want to use this like every single day. It's like okay, like it's what you do like before you put on makeup. So if you're super sensitive, like maybe not, but I think the product overall is very nice. And for me, I love a fragrance personally. I know some people don't love it, but I just I love that added sensorial element with my products.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So SAS approved or sus? I think it's sass approved. Oh, okay. I love that. All right, let's move on. We are going to

Drunk Elephant Bronzing Drops

SPEAKER_00

do the drunk elephant bronzing drops. Oh and I'm so curious about this one too because I feel like this kind of went viral with like the Sephora kids. And like young kids were using it. Yeah. So I'm really curious what you have to see.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, this started a revolution because the product is not new at all. Oh, okay. But with a new kind of like demographic, yeah. Now seeing it, and now there's 8,000 dupes on the market that like everyone is trying to have. Then I think because what drew people in was the packaging initially for drunk elephant. And this kind of formula is not particularly hard to dupe because it's not super expensive, it's not super like innovative when it comes to the actual ingredients and the pigments and and all of that. So it's a very easily dupable formula. So, like, there's nothing bad about it, but there's also nothing super special about it either. Like it's it's a perfectly fine product. So, yeah, I think for for this, it's fine, but I'm gonna say it's sus. Only because it's just it's not spectacular and you can get really similar performance with a lot of the dupes that are on the market. There's just no, like when you have things that you can get for like nine dollars, then like this doesn't really have the like power to like keep the like person there if you can get similar performance, but for a half the price, if not less.

SPEAKER_00

Would you consider it more of like skincare or makeup?

SPEAKER_01

I think this is more makeup. Like, I know that they talk about oh, the cocoa and the peptides whatever, but like that's that that's not driving anything for me. But like it's it's just like this is gonna give you that like bronzy, glowy finish that that you want to have like alongside makeup. So yeah, to me, this is more of a makeup part. It's like right in that hybrid area of like skincare makeup, but definitely more on the makeup side.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And what do you think about like the young kids using this?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, there's nothing bad about it. I mean, it's I don't know why someone who's like 11 needs to be bronze. Right. So that is a whole other conversation. But there's nothing in here that is like inherently harmful for a younger skin. It's like nothing necessarily bad, but I mean, I just don't know why someone who's 11 needs to look like bronzed.

SPEAKER_00

Like for what? Right. Agreed. Okay, so the drunk elephant bronzing drops. Sass approved or sus.

SPEAKER_01

I'm I'm gonna say sus for this.

SPEAKER_00

Not because it's bad for you, but just because it's maybe unnecessary. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's necessary, and you can get similar performance with things that are a lot less expensive. Gotcha. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, let's move on.

unknown

All right.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, this one

Summer Fridays Jet Lag Mask

SPEAKER_00

the Summer Fridays jet lag mask. Oh, yes. I'm so curious to hear what you think because, in my opinion, I'm not a cosmetic chemist like you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's hydrating.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Is it?

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Okay, great. Absolutely. I mean, what one of the things about all the hyperound products is that if they didn't perform well, then nobody would care. Absolutely. So, yeah, I've I've known about this product for a very long time. And I think that because they market it as like it's a mask, it's a hand cream, it's a body cream, it's just it's this kind of like all in one product. I think that people use it in so many different ways. But like the moisturizer itself, it's a fairly standard moisturizer. Like, you know, it like kind of stays on the skin like a a little bit longer. Cause like if you put it on overnight, you don't wake up and you feel dry. So it is a more like rich moisturizer, but it's nothing spectacular from a formula perspective. But I think that because they market it that like, oh, you can use it in so many different ways, that drives a lot of it. And if it didn't perform well, then nobody would use it the way that it does, and it wouldn't be as popular as it is. So yeah, the the the product itself is really, really nice. Nothing super crazy about it. It's just a really nice hydrating moisturizer.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So SAS approved or sus?

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna say SAS approved.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, we love that. Yeah. Okay, let's move on. This one's they're all interesting, but this one, the correct me if I'm saying it wrong, the Cos RX.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, Cause RX.

Snail mucin and salmon sperm

SPEAKER_00

Cause RX, okay, snail mucin.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I want to know like something about snail on my face. I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. It's it's not the most pleasant experience just from like thinking about what it is on the one hand, and the texture, it's a little bit slimy. It's not my personal favorite. It's like, will this be hydrating? Absolutely. Is it gonna be more hydrating than any other essence toner, high hydrating serum, whatever? Probably not. Like it's it's it's nothing spectacular specifically about the snail mucin. And I know that so many people are like, oh, it helps to fade acne scars and hyperpigmentation, all this stuff. It's like there, there's no evidence to support any of that.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, really? Yeah. That snail mucin doesn't help support acne. There's no evidence for that. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01

Like it's it's just hydrating. And that's not bad at all because hydrated skin does everything better, but nothing crazy in in there. And yeah, and just the the texture is just is it's not my favorite. It's not my favorite.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so I think I can guess, but the snail mucin, SAS approved or sus.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna say sus. Okay. For this, it's just it, it's not gonna be any better than so many other hydrating products that are on the market. And if that's the only benefit, you have so many options. There's no reason to like specifically grab this one at all.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Okay. So I don't have this here actually, but it brings up another topic. I want to talk about salmon sperm.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Salmon sperm, all of the like good evidence that we have for like what it does for the skin has to do with injections or like applying it alongside microneedling, just something to help it get delivered into the skin. Because the salmon sperm, um, the actual gradient is called PDRN. Like to get it into the skin, it's very difficult because the molecule is really, really large. And when you have that, you have to have some kind of delivery system either in the product or manually to get it into the skin to like do what it says that it's gonna do, which is why it's so popular with like treatments. And so in skincare products, it's likely gonna be hydrating, and that's really it, which is not bad at all. But a lot of those benefits that we hear about PDRN, you're not gonna see nearly as much if you're just applying products, but you're not getting it done like from a pro from a professional, getting it with microneedling, getting injections, something like that to like get it into the skin so it can like interface with the skin and do what it says that it's gonna do.

SPEAKER_00

So a lot of these animal-derived ingredients, it sounds like they're mainly for like hydrating, moisturizing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, for yeah, for for the most part. Like some of them do have additional benefits, but you've got to like pair them with treatments or have delivery systems or have something in there to make sure that it gets to where it needs to go. Right. But otherwise, yeah, a lot of them are just gonna be really moisturizing, plumping, hydrating, and all that, which is fine, but it's not gonna be any better than lots of the other ingredients that we have on the market that are not nearly as expensive or complicated or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00

So, salmon sperm, SAS approved or sus. I'm gonna say sus. I'm gonna say sus for that one. It sounds a little sus.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, okay, let's move into a little bit of your realm.

Supergoop Unseen Sunscreen

SPEAKER_00

Some sunscreen. Yes. So let's start with the super goop unseen sunscreen.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, a classic. Right? Oh my gosh. This changed people's lives. I think so too. I feel like when this launched, we're like, oh my gosh, this is the most innovative, crazy product product on the market. Now, again, there's so many dupes from so many brands. Because this is again similar to that drunk elephant product, it's not a difficult product to dupe. Right. Because it's a relatively simple um product, but improving on it and making like the texture better or whatever is a little bit more complicated. But I don't love this specific product only because it can feel a little bit like slippery on the skin because it has like uh essentially a silicone base. And so it can feel like kind of slippery on the skin initially. Um, so I don't I personally don't love it, but I think it's a really nice product. And so many people like I know a lot of men were like, oh, this is the only sunscreen that that I'll wear. Because basically, when you put it on, the the base of this is called isodoticaine and it and it's what's called volatile. So it evaporates off the skin, so it gives a really like matte finish, which when you're making products for men, a lot of people want those kind of like matte, barely there sort of finish. So yeah, I think this product is very, very popular. I think it's really, really nice. It's not my personal favorite, but I think that like this is such a good formula for people who don't like the feel of having sunscreen on their face when you're dealing with like things that are really greasy or really heavy thing. This is one that's really nice to try.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Okay, so super goop SAS approved or SAS?

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna say SAS approved.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Okay, let's do another sunscreen. Okay, I'm so curious about this.

Vacation Classic Whip SPF 30

SPEAKER_00

This vacation classic whip SPF 30.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00

It's so fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it is so fun. Like that is what drives a lot of. I mean, the the the whole brand is so fun with the scents, the packaging, the experience. Like they they really nail just getting a vibe for a brand 100%. So I really like this product for the body. I think again, like if you have like kids or just like people who just want to have like a little bit more fun when they when you're using sunscreen, I think this is a fantastic product because like it's so fun. Like you spray it out and it's like whipped cream and it's in a whipped cream bottle, which is great. My my only gripe with with this is because you have to apply sunscreen at a certain like concentration in order to get the labeled protection. And that's a lot easier when you're dealing with like lotions and gels to do that. With something like this, when it's in an aerosol, it's hard to figure out like how much you should apply because it's it's like a mousse. It's like, okay, is is this big hunk going to be enough at the end of the day? That's my only thing about it. But otherwise, I think, I think it's it's it's so fun. But like, make sure that you keep this like away from your kids so it's like in your house so they don't like try and spray it into their mouth. And eat it, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

What about the ingredients though?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, I think this would probably be not, I don't think it's great for the face because it can be a little bit heavy. And like spreading a mousse around your face, it's just, it's, it's not the most pleasant experience. I think this is great for the body, especially because you can just like spray out like one long line of it like down your leg or your arm, just rub it all in. It's super easy. Um, and it does have fragrance like a lot of the vacation products, and it's a part of their whole brand. So if you've got like really sensitive skin, maybe not the best um product in general, but overall, it's a really nice formula and it's not like too shiny or greasy, even though this is water, um, it even though it is water resistant, which is which is really nice because lots of formulas that are water resistant tend to be like really heavy on the skin and kind of just like sussuffocating. But this is pretty light, but yeah. So this is this is pretty nice from an ingredient per perspective as well.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so is the vacation classic whip SPF 30 SAS approved or sus?

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna say SAS approved.

SPEAKER_00

Love it. Okay, awesome. We got two more. All right. So

Charlotte Tilbury Magic Cream

SPEAKER_00

let's get into the Charlotte Tilbury magic cream.

SPEAKER_01

Oh god. Oh yes. Oh my gosh. Okay, I know so many people who are like ride or die.

SPEAKER_00

Wait, what is it?

SPEAKER_01

For this product. What?

SPEAKER_00

I haven't used it.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. So I mean it's it's a it's just a nice moisturizer. It's pretty much all that it is, gotcha, essentially. But it's got like a nice like rose. I think I think it's got like a rose um fragrance to it. And like it's it's rich and nice, but not too heavy as well. But yeah, it's just it's a product that's been around for so long, and so many people love it and swear by it. Um for me though, I I think it's a little overhyped personally. Okay. Uh, because again, like it's it's a moisturizer. Like there's nothing super crazy, innovative, interesting, whatever about it. And it's like it's a texture thing. And if you like the texture and the fragrance, it's great. But I think that people treat this like it's the second coming, like because it's like, oh my god, this is the best moisturizer that's ever been existed. And like, that's fine, but it is a moisturizer at the end of the day. Right. So, so so yeah, I think that especially for the price, because this is pretty, pretty expensive, then yeah, it's it's not my personal favorite, and you can get more interesting moisturizers for this price point for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Gotcha. Okay, so Charlotte Tilbury Magic Cream, SAS approved or sus? I'm gonna say sus for this. So I have a question because I feel like a lot of the moisturizers we have here that are viral products, you're just saying, you know, they're they're just like any other moisturizer. What's a good moisturizer that has something special in it that really is going to moisturize your skin?

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, moisturizer with something special. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00

Or like a moisturizer you just you swear by and you're like, this is a thousand percent SaaS approved.

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, oh my gosh. Okay, now I gotta think about this. Take your time. Oh my gosh. I'm going through my like shot my shelf for right now. Yeah. Okay, like what do I have? There for moisturizers. Oh my gosh, like what are things? Okay. One that I love, I cannot remember the name of it for the life of me. Um, it's from Murad. It's it's a it's like a hydrating cream. It's okay, you know what?

SPEAKER_00

I'm just gonna look up what the name of Is it one of like the push bottle? You know what it is? No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01

So this is in a pot. Yeah. Uh it's the Murad Intense Recovery Cream. Like it is, it's really rich night cream. It's almost like a butter. And then when you like put your finger into it, there's some like pushback, and you have to like dig some of it out and get like a really rich. Rich moment with it. It smells amazing. It spreads incredibly on the skin. And the thing about moisturizers is like even the ones that we've talked about, none of them are bad. None of them are bad. But I think that spending a lot of money on a moisturizer is not necessary at all. Because like if you like it, great. But it's not where I would invest a ton of money. Like I would invest in the actives, the serums, that kind of thing versus a moisturizer, which is more utilitarian. But at the same time, if it's like, okay, I'm going to spend that money because I know that I'm going to use this product, then fine. I mean, it's kind of like with the Summer Friday's lip balm. Like no one wants to spend $24 on a lip balm. But I will.

SPEAKER_04

But exactly.

SPEAKER_01

But you're going to. Because like it tastes great. It's I like tastes great. You love the texture, all those things. It's just like, you know what? I'm going to invest that because I love doing it. And like that's that's a huge part of it as well. But yeah, like for me, like, is that gonna be where I put a lot of my money in like moisturizers? For me personally, I don't think that you need to, but if you want to, go for it. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00

That's good advice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. We have one more thing,

Biodance collagen mask

SPEAKER_00

and this is gonna be a little different. So it's the Biodance Collagen Mask. Have you tried this one yet?

SPEAKER_01

I have not, but I've seen so many people talk about this.

SPEAKER_00

It kind of is this is the one that you wear and it just like melts into your skin.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it has like all the different like parts to it. You put it on and then it like kind of melts in. Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. So I am not the biggest fan of this.

SPEAKER_04

Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_01

I I mean, I think that it creates a really cool like moment when you're like recording and you put it on and you watch it melt, whatever. But I've heard so many people get get irritation from this. And also, I'm not a huge sheet mask fan, not because they they don't work, but because you can get the same results from a hydrating serum, some kind of moisturizer, whatever. And like the the mask is a fun moment, of course. But using like the goop from the sheet mask as like a hydrating serum is gonna do the exact same thing for your skin. And yeah, like sometimes like wearing the mask helps it penetrate a little bit. But now that there's so many more like reusable sheet masks, like the one from Experiment, where it's like this, this, the, this like green silicone mask that you can just like put a hydrating serum on, just strap that on just to help that penetration, and you can wash it and and and reuse it with any hydro hydrating serum is gonna be better than like buying a ton of these and just okay, you apply it, okay, great. You use it, and then you have to throw it away. So yeah, not not my favorite, but again, if it works for you and it's nice, then obviously continue to use it. But like, would I go out of my way to like buy this? Probably not.

SPEAKER_00

Do you think it makes a difference of like one of those one-time sheet masks that you take off after 20 minutes versus something like this that you keep on all night and it kind of just like melts into the skin? Like, do you think it's more hydrating?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like this is probably this is probably gonna be more hydrating because it's such a longer process than just like, okay, you put it on, you leave for a little bit, and then you take it off. So, yeah, this is probably gonna be more hydrating because of how long it would take and kind of the seal that it makes over your face, definitely.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you. That was so fun.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, this was great. So many

Skincare Formulation 101

SPEAKER_01

products.

SPEAKER_00

I know. Okay. So I want to move into a little bit more about skincare formulation. I know we talked about specific bio products, but just more general questions. Yeah. We'll call it skincare formulation 101. All right.

Is more ingredients always better?

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. So is more ingredients always better?

SPEAKER_01

No, not at all. And I think that of a common misconception that when you think about like cosmetic ingredients is that every single one of those ingredients individually is added to the product. But actually, there are some ingredients that come basically as blends where it's like, oh yeah, it might list as like 10 different ingredients, but it's all like one vial that I put into the product. So for example, like a really popular blend of ceramides for example, it's the three ceramides, but it's also has some parts of the delivery system. It has some like thickeners, again, it has lots of stuff in that product. So even though it is like one ingredient from my perspective, when you look at an ingredient list, it's like 15 different things. So you can have a product that has a really long ingredient list, but might be only like 20 different actual components because so many of the things have lots of different moving parts in them. Gotcha. Especially for things like actives where you have delivery systems, or for a lot of the um, they're called emulsifiers. So these are the things that hold oil and water together and things like moisturizers, lotions, things like that. Those are usually like a couple of different ingredients, but they really help with like the texture of the formula. But you can have some that are really long, that are like 10 different things, some that is just like two ingredients. But yeah, like more isn't better at all, but it's also not bad either. It's just what did the chemist decide to use in that product? Yeah, the length of an ingredient list is no indicator of the quality of the product, either good or bad.

SPEAKER_00

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

What makes a product bad for your skin?

SPEAKER_00

Well, what makes a product bad for your skin?

SPEAKER_01

So many different things can can happen with a product. I mean, really common things are like a lot of the common allergens, like fragrances is a common thing. Um, even just having things that are like delivered too efficiently into the skin, for example, a lot of people get irritation from like pure vitamin C serums. Because one of the things that you have to do with vitamin C is because pure vitamin C, the ascorbic acid, it's water soluble. And what that means is that your skin doesn't really want to get that product in your skin. Cause like if you like get a drop of water and you put it on your skin, it's gonna like beat up on the top of your skin. So lots of ingredients that are water soluble are really hard to actually get in into the skin. And so a part of that is you have these things called your delivery system or your penetration enhancers to help deliver things into the skin. The problem with that is with something that's somewhat irritating, like ascorpic acid, if it's delivered too efficiently, then it can be kind of irritating as well. So lots of those like really strong actives can just be too much for some people, right? Like your vitamin C, your exfoliating um acids as well, are kind of the two biggest ones. Some kind of niacinamide can can also be um irritating. So yeah, I think the actives is a really big one. And then the common allergens like fragrances or essential oils, like tend to be the biggest things that happen. And there's lots of different like allergies that that people can have that we have to sometimes formulate around, and also lots of things that are more on the natural side because so many people have allergies to different like natural components. It's a lot more difficult to predict like allergic reactions because when you're dealing with natural stuff, there's so like there's so many chemicals in each one of these natural ingredients that like make up this oil, this extra this extract. So it's kind of hard to know it's like, okay, like have I gotten all of this allergen out? Like, how is this being controlled? Especially if you're working with natural stuff that like is harvested. And if they're not actually like doing really good control of all those different plants, then you might have like less allergen in one batch and more in another batch. And it might be in and it might be on unpreachable. So yeah, a lot of those common allergens, fragrance, essential oils, and natural stuff, and those actives like tend to be the biggest like indicators that, like, okay, if I have sensitive skin, maybe this might be a

Ingredients that should not be in products

SPEAKER_01

little bit too much.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Is there an ingredient that you've seen brands using that's like an absolute no-no? Like this should not be on your skin, should not be in your products.

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, I think my my biggest one is like citrus, like essential oils, but specifically in like sun care products. Because like when you have that combination of like citrus and sun, you can have like a really bad reaction. And I've seen some brands like putting some kind of like citrus or stuff for like a fragrance or whatever, because they're trying to be like, oh, it's like citrus, summer, beachy, whatever it's like, but you you cannot put that in a sun care product. Like that's just like you're you're asking for disaster in there. I think that that that's the only like big thing for me. Cause for the most part, brands don't want to have people having allergic reactions to their products. But I think that because some people just don't know that like that combination can be a huge problem. And then they find out once it's on the market and they have all these reviews of people having irritation. But yeah, like those are the that's probably the biggest thing. A lot of the really big ingredients that like cause a lot of irritation have been just completely phased out in the industry, either from regulations or just brands knowing that, like, okay, this is not gonna be the best, or we're just not gonna use it anymore.

SPEAKER_00

Right. I think that's kind of what differentiates like marketing versus like real skincare. That's really gonna work because yeah, the citrus, it's it's fun, it sounds fun, it sounds cute, it sounds summary, like, oh, you want to buy this because it really encapsulates like summer.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

But they're selling that and it's not good for your skin.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's so hard because, like, yes, like even you know, when you go to a manufacturer to like make a product for you, yes, their job is to like make your product. And maybe like the scientists who were there know it's like this is not gonna be great, but their job is not to tell you, it's like, oh, this may not be a good idea. It's like their job is to, okay, you ask for this product, I'm gonna make it for you. Like that the the that's it. So if you're not getting expert guidance, then you might not know until that product is on the market.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So another question. You mentioned how water doesn't seep into your skin. If the first ingredient

Is water the first ingredient a bad thing?

SPEAKER_00

is water in a product, is that a bad thing?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely not. Okay. Absolutely not. Like water is like you call it the universal solvent. Like it is what a ton of ingredients dissolve in and need to work in general. So I know that there's been a huge trend of the like waterless beauty and like lots of like solid stuff, which is great for like travel and things like that. All the like bars and powders and all that is great. But when you're working with ingredients like that, you're so limited as to what you can work with in terms of both your like more functional ingredients, like your like oils and your waxes or whatever, and also your actives, because like a lot of actives come in water and need to be dissolved in water. So, not a bad thing at all. And also when you're making products and like water is a big component of it, you tend to save money be because when you're making like let's say a body oil, for example, you have to buy every ingredient that goes into that body oil. So all of your base oil, whatever, versus if you're doing like a body moisturizer, that product is probably like 70 to 80% water, which you're not being charged for. Cause that's just like coming from the manufacturer. Right. So then you can invest more money into maybe the actives and having like a really nice texture or like all of those really fun ingredients. When you're doing something that has no water, you're so much more constricted in terms of what you can use, both from a cost perspective and from a functionality perspective. So, water is the first ingredient, absolutely not a bad thing, and so essential to have really nice textures overall, because otherwise everything is an oil or a butter or a

Fragrance, fragrance-free, and unscented

SPEAKER_01

stick.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about fragrance.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So what is what does fragrance really mean? And should we be avoiding it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think that with fragrance, because you know, it's it's a part of the sensorial aspect of a product. Like, I I love a fragrance. And people think that, oh, because I formulate products, like, oh, you should know the life for fragrances is sensitizing, but like, no, I love, I love a fragrance. I have so many in my lab. And I think that the kind of rise of the derms on social media has really like given rise to lots of people that are like afraid of fragrance. And also just anyone who like kind of sees skin on a regular basis and talks and like has seen like reactions from fragrance, people having sensitivity, then it's kind of become this like, oh no, you like a universal recommendation that like no, everyone should avoid fragrance because it can be irritating. And like, yes, it can, but for the vast majority of people, it's not gonna be irritating at all. Like, you know, some people will have a problem with it and some people won't. And I think that now, because we have to disclose some of those fragrance allergens that are kind of the really common ones, like lemonine and linolule and things like that, which are kind of the the that are the components of a of a fragrance, it's a little bit easier now to for like people who have a true allergy to distinguish, like, okay, like this is like, okay, these are the ones that I need to avoid. And there's current stuff happening now where you have to disclose even more of those potential allergens. So that'll be coming down the pipe in a couple of years. But yeah, I don't think it's a need for everyone to avoid it, especially because like it's such a part of the sensorial aspect of a product. But again, if you like know you have sensitivity and if you tend to have like breakouts or like redness from products that have fragrance, then definitely it's one of the first things that I think is good to avoid. Cause it's fairly easy to like tell, like, oh, this has fragrance. I can read that on the ingredient list and I can cut that out and see how my skin reacts. Because lots of other allergies are really hard to kind of figure out, okay, like what in this product is is is a problem. So it's it's an easy thing to cut out, so to speak, when it comes like skincare, whatever. But yeah, some people have have issues, some people don't. I don't think it's a universal need. But if you know that you have sensitivities, then it's definitely something that would be great to avoid. And now there's so many brands that are out now that are just don't don't don't use fragrance at all.

SPEAKER_00

So I think we cleared up a big misconception because I was always under the belief that fragrance is really bad for your skin.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for for for some people, it it absolutely is. But as a universal, like, oh, bad for everyone's skin, no, not at all. Because, like, I mean, if it was universally bad for your skin, then the industry wouldn't use it. But because it's such a part of the sensorial part of so many products, like there are so many iconic products that people like because of the scent, not just because of the performance, or sometimes saying, okay, this product doesn't really perform that well, but I love the scent. So I'm gonna keep on so I'm gonna continue to use it. So I think that because it's such a driver for that consumer adoption, and if it was like a mass sensitizing thing, then we would know about it by now.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting. I just learned something new. I love that. So is there a difference between no fragrance and fragrance-free?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because some things will say, oh, it's it's unscented, is something like that that I've seen a lot. And normally what that tends to mean is that there's something to like mask uh a scent of maybe maybe there's like a raw material or some kind of active that maybe smells a a little bit weird. So they'll say it's unscented because it it now has a very neutral scent because they've cut any of that funkiness that that that comes in there. For fragrance free generally means that okay, there's no added fragrance at all in this product. There's no regulations or anything around those different terms, but generally unscented means it's something to mask, and then fragrance-free means that what is in here is the smell of the product, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00

Gotcha. Yeah. So a product could be called unscented, and unscented is low-key the scent. Yes. Interesting. Exactly. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because there there are sometimes you have ingredients that smell bad, and you're like, okay, we need to cut this somehow. But and and you're just like, okay, we're gonna add like a bit of a masking fragrance in here to just like cut through the notes of whatever the funky smelling thing is. It's like, okay, these have been cut cut out, it's got a very neutral scent now, and so now we're good. So this is our unscented version. So yes.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting.

Can “clean” products still irritate your skin?

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So on a more general basis about products and ingredients irritating your skin, can a product be considered clean but still irritate your skin?

SPEAKER_01

Without question. Yeah. I think because clean has gotten to such an enormous level now, where like every brand is like, oh, we're like we're clean because of XYZ reasons. And because every brand has their own no-no list, so many retailers have their own no-no list. And it's so hard to kind of keep track of what everyone is saying. But even if you avoid a lot of those ingredients, which which by now most brands are doing anyway, there are still things that can irritate your skin. So, an example of an ingredient that's like a more common irritant is like niacinamide, is something that like lots of people be can become sensitive to because when you're working with niacinamide, there is an impurity called nicotinic acid. And that is responsible for lots of the like redness, the like flushing, the irritation that some people can get from niacinamide. And if you're using a fairly inexpensive version of niacinamide, then it might not be, you might have more of that irritant. And as you, you know, get more expensive, they're like really like ultra-purified, then you don't have that nicotinic acid that's in there. And because it's an impurity, it's not on the ingredient list or anything like that. And like that's an ingredient that like so many clean brands like use as they're active, but like can absolutely still be irritating. Another example is lots of the natural extracts and oils and things because people can have sensitivity to plant extracts, to different essential oils. Like that is a really, really common sensitivity. So you could absolutely still be a brand that like advice, like like that adheres to all those clean principles, but people can still get irritation because like there's so much variety when it comes to skin. Like you cannot guarantee that, like, oh, this product will not irritate anyone's skin. Like you, you cannot guarantee that for sure. I mean, like, I've gotten irritation from brands that are like around the world that are like made for sensitive skin, and I had a reaction to it. It's like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00

It's never gonna be one size fits all. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

It's never gonna be one size fits all. So you can, you know, cut out all the ingredients, whatever that that you want, but like it's never gonna be perfect for absolutely everyone. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like there's a lot of retailers now that are advertising as like clean beauty products, but people are finding that these products aren't actually as clean as it's saying, like in the section that they're found in. So what how do you recommend going about finding a clean product?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I think that for for you, like what's more important than like looking for something that's like that's that's clean or whatever is knowing it's like, okay, the no ingredient that's on the market right now is gonna be like harmful to your health. So like that that part of it is kind of a base level that every brand is essentially being on. So then it's about knowing, okay, what does my skin not like? Which takes so much more time and effort. And if you're just going by a like a clean label, then like that person's clean label might not line up with your own skin sensitivities. So it's about like kind of trying to figure out, okay, what is my skin not like? Which can take a lot of trial and error and it's a lot of effort. But once you kind of figure it out, okay, like, all right, my skin doesn't seem to like products that have like, I don't know, like this like rosemary extract. It's like, okay, so let me try it, try and avoid that. And then if you've made that switch, it's like, okay, like I found my products that are great for my skin, clean, not not clean, whatever. But like that's gonna be so much more important than like just going by the label because that that clean label can mean so many different things. And it often is not all-encompassing of what one's person's allergies or sensitivities can be.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah. Gotcha. What's one thing that could make a product not clean?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I think that there are, let me think, things are like not clean.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, most brands like are all like adhiring to Like have you seen a brand that's promoting their product as clean, like this is clean beauty, clean product, but have read the ingredients and been like, mm, that's not, that's not so clean.

SPEAKER_01

Nothing that I've seen. No, no, nothing that I've seen, because I think that a lot of the like no-no lists or whatever are kind of taken from these like big retailers, so like Sephora, Ulta, or um, oh god, what's that retailer called? Um, or or credo. There we go. Or credo. And like there's kind of taking that list and either like and usually like expanding on it, but even with that label, there again, there's no guarantee that it's gonna like work for everyone's skin, everyone's concerns. Right. So, like because it's such like a nebulous marketing term, and even for kind of the ingredients that are like table stakes across all those things. So, like, okay, I'm trying to think of one that's like really, really common. Um, so an example is there are preservatives that release a really tiny amount of formaldehyde as a part of the way that they preserve products. And it's used by lots of like really big mass market brands that are like in drugstores where like no one who's buying this cares about the ingredients, like you know, the like like really like rugged hand creams, for example. Like, no, no one who's buying this is gonna be looking at this and looking for like a right exactly. Like no one's looking for a clean product. You're just like, you know, a man who works in a shop and you're like, I just need uh uh a hand cream.

SPEAKER_02

But

SPEAKER_01

But, you know, because of those formaldehyde releasing preservatives, people are like worried about like cancer, health issues, whatever. So the vast majority of brands that are in like Sephora, Ulta, places, just like across the board, don't use formaldehyde releasing preservatives. So because there's so much crossover among all those different lists, then most brands would probably adhere to most clean standards at retailers. It's just a matter of do they want to honestly like pay the extra money to like have a label or be in a certain section or well, whatever. Because the whole clean beauty movement has become such a huge part of the industry. And whether you're in it or not, you have to adapt to it because it's such a big market preference. Like there, like, you know, when I was, you know, on the brand side and we were, you know, uh dealing with Sephora and they talked about, oh, we have, you know, people who are using these ingredient um these things to like look at ingredients. So like you need to make sure that your stuff is clean according to this, this, this, this, this. And even though we weren't in that clean program, we still have to kind of play by the game of the clean beauty stuff because that's what people are looking at. So most brands are like adhering to it whether they like want to or not, essentially.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So to

The biggest clean beauty myth

SPEAKER_00

wrap up this little skincare formulation segment, I want to ask you what's one skincare myth you wish people would stop believing?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, okay. Oh I'm gonna kind of stay in the in the clean realm here, in that like buying clean products means that it's going to be like better or healthier for your skin and for your body and all those things. Because one, a lot of those ingredients that are like proven to be harmful, like actually in human clinical studies, the industry does not use anymore. And a lot of the groups that kind of dictate a lot of the clean standards are using like studies that are done like in isolation, like on rats, for example. And it's like, oh, we fed this rat some massive amount of this ingredient and tumors do and like and you know, the rat started to grow tumors, then that means that you shouldn't have it in your skincare. But the problem with that is that feeding an animal a whole bunch of an ingredient versus applying half a percent on your skin are two completely different things. And you have to kind of take that into account when you're looking at, you know, a lot of brands that say, oh, we don't use this, that, um, that, that, whatever. And there are some things that are sensitizing, that are like allergenic or that can cause some issues. But a lot of the stuff that we have on the market is generally safe, effective, no problems, outside of people who are sensitive, have allergic reactions, won't whatever. So buying stuff that is labeled as clean is not going to always be better for your skin. And it's so much more important to again just look at what your skin likes and what it doesn't. And like now, so many brands are like trying to be clean and and and hit hit all this stuff, but then are realizing it's like, oh, we've done all this, but we're still having irritations. Like, well, yeah, because that's just part of having a brand. It's just part of like being in the industry. People are gonna have irritation problems. So yeah, it's a it's a really hard like nut to crack um with the whole clean beauty thing. But yeah, it's not a guarantee of better, safer products at all.

Chemical vs mineral sunscreen

SPEAKER_00

Gotcha. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Okay, so now I want to move a little bit more into your realm. You're the king of sunscreen. Okay. So let's do some sunscreen hot takes. Okay. Okay. First, what's the real difference between chemical and mineral sunscreen?

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So you've got two general classes of UV filters. So you have the mineral filters and the chemical filters. I mean that they're all chemicals at the end of the day. So with the chemical sunscreens, though, so those are the ones that have the really like chemical names. So the avibenzone, homo salate, octosalate, things like that. What those do is they absorb the UV rays and they convert them into heat. And so that's how that protection happens. It kind of like catches the UV rays in its tracks, converts them in into heat, and just dissipates off the skin. It's a really tiny amount of heat. It's not gonna like heat up your skin or anything like that. So the benefit of those is that they tend to work really well on all skin tones.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Most of them are like either transparent liquids or powders that dissolve in oil. And so you can really get good performance across all skin tones with those. The bad part, um, especially um in the US, is that because a lot of those filters are relatively old and they can tend to be more sensitizing. So you have more people who might have reactions to it. You get the like stinging that can happen like around the eyes. So generally not as nice for like sensitive skin, sensitive eyes, and you can have some more reactions to those. So that is kind of like the chemical filters. Then with the mineral filters, so those are zinc oxide and titanium dioxide, and those are both white powders. So like titanium dioxide is like what is used as like a white base in like foundation and paint. So it is white. And so how those work is mostly kind of the exact same way. It's like 90% of absorbing those UV rays and converting them into heat. But there's another like five to 10% that's actually the reflection of that UV light. And that's what causes that like whiteness of the product. It's the reflection of light, and that's why it looks white. And so the benefit of that is that it tends to be better tolerated by people with sensitive skin, which is great. So you have much lower risk of like people having allergies or irritation, like tends to be well tolerated by everybody. The problem is that because those powders are white, it tends to not look great on like medium to deep skin tones. So getting like a mineral sunscreen to work on all skin tones is pretty much impossible. Right. So you have to have either different tints or like use a really tiny particle size or whatever. So it's a really hard balance here where sunscreen is a drug and any new ingredient has to go through really intense drug testing. So we don't have access to lots of the really cool, innovative ingredients that are available all or all around the world. It's like either I have my white cast mineral sunscreen that is great for sensitive skin, or I have my chemical sunscreen, which is transparent, but I but my eyes are burning every time that I use it. It's a really like, okay, what are you willing to compromise on when it comes to those sunscreens? Like that's kind of the difference but between the main two types. So they don't work in a particularly different way, but how they look and feel on the skin is super duper different.

Why sunscreen is a drug in the US

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So two questions. Yes. Sunscreen is considered a drug in the US.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. Can you explain that a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So sunscreen is treated as a drug for skin cancer and sunburn prevention. So that's why anytime that you buy a sunscreen at like Walmart, Sephora, whatever, it has a drug facts label on the back with like very in-depth instructions as to how to use it. Which on the one hand is good because like you want to have like regulations around how to protect against skin cancer, things like that. The problem with that is that under the vast majority of every other regulatory body outside of like Canada and Australia, sunscreens are cosmetics, which means that you can have so much more innovation that happens with new UV filters and new technologies because you don't have to go through a drug approval process for new things that come onto the market. So when you're trying to like launch a drug into the US, I've been in this realm before. You have to do so much study, like so many studies, and it costs so much money. Like you have to do animal testing, you have to do three stages of clinical studies. Like it costs millions and millions of dollars to make this stuff happen. And it has to get approved by the FDA. It's a really intense process. Versus where sunscreen is a cosmetic, it's like, okay, you have the evidence to show that it protects against you, against UV rays, you send it over to like the EU, for example. They say, okay, great, this is an approved UV filter, whatever. And that's it. So it's a lot more, it's a lot easier process, which is why so many people go to like Asian sunscreens or European sunscreens, because they have so many more innovative materials they can use in their sun care products. So you have like really nice like chemical filters, but that don't have any of the like concerns about like health that some people have in the US, like, oh no, like there, there's no, like there's zero evidence for any kind of risk for any population at all. And so even the ones that are in the US are like safe and effective and everything is fine. But the ones that are over there have an even kind of higher level of safety where they've actually done the testing and said, oh no, like this is safe, effective, and everything is good. Um, so yeah, it it makes it a lot harder to get nice sunscreens in the US because of that really intense re-regulation.

SPEAKER_00

That is so interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And then my second question was so there's

Why sunscreen can break you out

SPEAKER_00

no like real difference in the protection aspect of chemical and mineral sunscreen. They both protect equally the same.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. And then why do some SPFs break me out?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So that's kind of a like nature of how they're made. Essentially, because they have like essentially, okay, I'm trying to think about how to do this without getting too technical. Um, so a lot of them have basically they're called film formers because what you want to do is you want that sunscreen compared to like a regular moisturizer where you just want to put it on on your skin, everything is great. But with the sunscreen, you want it to go on the skin and then you want it to form an even film across the skin. Because when you look at the skin like really, really close, there's peaks and valleys, and you want to make sure that everything is well protected. So those products have like additional film formers to make sure that like it forms an even, like good layer on the skin. And a lot of those film forms can kind of just like kind of like trap on the skin. So if your skin doesn't like just like feeling kind of heavy, like having heavy stuff on it, then people can absolutely have like breakouts, irritation just from the way that the product is structured.

SPEAKER_00

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01

Versus just those UV filters, which people can have irritation from as well, but just kind of is a necessary evil of how a lot of sunscreens are made. Because they're they just they tend to be sort of heavier products. And if you have acne-prone skin, that kind of tends to get triggered by like really heavy products, then like a lot of sunscreens, especially a lot of the ones that you can get at like the drugstore, may not be the best because they tend to be like kind of heavy and like not the

Is higher SPF always better?

SPEAKER_01

nicest.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Yeah. Would you say a higher SPF is always better?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I like yes and no. I think that anything above 30 is great. Like anything above 50 is like ideal. Do you have to use like a really high SPF, like an SPF like 100 or whatever? No. So I know that some people treat it like it's like diminishing returns because basically how a lot of people think about it is like STF 30, you know, per like, you know, only lets in like 130th of like UV rays, essentially. And getting to like STF 60, oh, it lets in 160th. So as you get a higher SPF, the like graph of the protection kind of looks like this, where it's like, okay, you get this massive improvement initially. And then kind of as you get higher and higher, it's like, okay, like I'm at like, oh, I'm protecting against like 96% versus like 98%. Like it's not really that different. But in terms of what is actually let in, like an SPF 60 is going to protect you against like twice as much UV that would like be let in versus an SPF 30, for example. So it's like, okay, like this is like 130th versus 160th. So like the S like so that SF30 is letting in twice as much UV as an SPF 60. Gotcha. But at the end of the day, if you're wearing at least a 30, you're fine. Maybe like if you're at the beach for a long time, then you want to like wear something like a 50 or a 70 and make sure that you're reapplying as well. But like, is it better? Yes, because it does provide more protection. But do you absolutely have to have a really high cell protection product? No, not really.

SPEAKER_00

No. And should you still be reapplying every two hours, no matter what number SPF you're using?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. I think that with that higher SPF, I think that people tend to get very confident. It's like, oh, like I'm I'm I'm wearing a hundred, I'm fine exactly. But that film still breaks down over time. So if you're like out and like sweating or running, you're at the beach, but whether you're wearing like a 30 or a hundred, you still should be reapplying like after two hours or whatever to make sure that you're getting like another like good layer over that initial film

SPF moisturizer and face vs body sunscreen

SPEAKER_01

that you had.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. And how do you feel about like two-in-one products? So, like an S or so, like a sunscreen that's also a moisturizer.

SPEAKER_01

So a lot of sunscreens, the base of them is a moisturizer.

SPEAKER_04

Oh.

SPEAKER_01

At the end of the day. So a lot of those products that are just like marketed as like, oh, it's like an SPF 30 moisturizer is how it's marketed. That's just a sunscreen that hopefully, because they market it as a moisturizer, has a really nice texture, essentially. Okay. So as long as you're wearing enough of it, then it's absolutely fine. Like if you're gonna apply roughly like a half a teaspoon to like your face, your ears, and your neck, or like a quarter teaspoon just for your face, then that's fine to use a product that's a two-in-one product. But if you're only gonna apply like a little bit of your moisturizer, then maybe that's not the best thing. And you wanna, you know, use a separate sun protection product to make sure you're getting all that protection. But yeah, if it's like SPF moisturizer and you apply enough of it, go for it.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So what about face and body sunscreen? Did those have the two-in-one deal, or are face sunscreen and body sunscreen two separate things?

SPEAKER_01

So they're the same. Generally, with body sunscreen, the textures tend to be not as nice only because like your face is a little bit more finicky. And with lots of body sunscreens, what you're really focused on is like getting a good spread. Like, like if you think about, you know, if you're applying like a really rich moisturizer on your face, that you're like you're rubbing it in a very small area versus like on the body where you want to get something across like a long area, you want to spread really, really well and really nicely. But in terms of like the structure of them, they're pretty much the same. So like you could, in theory, use a body sunscreen on your face. It might not feel the best, but you can do it. You can use a face sunscreen on the body, but it's probably gonna cost you an arm and a leg because they tend to be so much more expensive. Um, so yeah, like they're they're not that different at the end of the day, but it's just a matter of like, what am I gonna use and what do I like to use?

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah. Okay. So you touched on this a little bit earlier, but I wanted to know if there's more of a reasoning. Why do sunscreens have a white cast?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So it tends to be those mineral filters, so the zinc oxide, the titanium dioxide, because those powders are white powders and they they don't dissolve in the formula. So one of the trickiest parts about making a mineral sunscreen is you have to essentially disperse these powders evenly throughout the whole formula. And so you have this kind of like ashiness that is present across the entire formula. And there are ways to mitigate that, like by using like a really tiny particle size of those filters. You can also have particles that are like shaped in really funky ways that like reflect light in different ways so that it doesn't look as apparent. There's also the tints, uh, obviously, that you can use to like you know add some iron oxides to make it look better on different skin tones, but it's those white powders at the end of the day. The other thing that can also add to the white cast is if you're trying to cut back on that like greasiness that tends to happen with lots of sunscreens, a lot of those mattifying agents are also white powders that have to be dispersed. So some of them, like silica, is a really great example. Again, they can have a little bit of ashiness to them if you're using a really big particle size, because then you can like see it like as you spread it across the skin. So usually tends to be those mineral filters, but then sometimes the like mattifying agents can also leave a little bit of a cast depending on which ones that you use.

Best sunscreens for darker skin tones

SPEAKER_00

Gotcha. Cause I see a lot of your content is about sunscreens that like claim to be transparent or claim to be clear, and then you'll test them out, and it's not so much. So, what's a good sunscreen for darker skin tones with zero white cast?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, okay. I got I have so many, so many. I mean, one of my all-time favorites is the Banana Boat Lightest Air. It's available at the drugstore here in the US. It's amazing. You can get it in like a two bag on Amazon for like $13. Amazing. It's it's so nice. I mean, the one we we talked about before, the unseen sunscreen or that vacation one are also two great ones. I think that if you have a darker skin tone, but like you really want to use a mineral sunscreen, because you know, all the ones I listed were chemical sunscreens, one that is not perfect, but it's pretty good is from a brand called Coat. So it's C-O-T-Z. They have a uh product called the Flawless Complexion. It's a really nice mineral sunscreen. It is heavy and it is greasy, but because of how they formulated it and because of like the the particle size of the zinc oxide and the tint that they have, their like deeper tint is almost like perfect for me. It's like a little bit ashy, but like it is leaps and bounds above so many other mineral sunscreens that are on the market. It's absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_00

Amazing. Okay, good to know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I feel like there's a lot of controversy over sunscreen in general. All the time.

Sunscreen myths: cancer, hormones, and reef safety

SPEAKER_00

Why do some people swear against sunscreen?

SPEAKER_01

So many things. Oh my gosh, so many things. There are so many things. There's okay, like how how do I even start? There's, oh, it's gonna disrupt my hormones. There's like, oh, it's it's bad for the earth. Um, yeah, it's just all all the different like health could con the various health concerns, like, oh, it's like bad for like people who are pregnant, all this stuff. And especially because like this is this is a drug in the US, sunscreen filters have been through really, really rigorous testing across so many aspects of safety. And no sunscreen filter has been shown to be harmful at the levels that we use in cosmetic products, like in sun in sun care products for anybody. So whether that's you know, about anything with hormones, about anything with like cancer, uh anything like that. All of that evidence comes from very isolated studies that uses a really high percentage of the filters in very unrealistic conditions. So there's just there's so much out there that just like, oh, sunscreen's toxic, sunscreen, sunscreen poison, but like none of it holds any water when you think about like, oh, this study was done on you know, using this pure UV filter directly on people. But it's like, okay, but in this product, it's at like 10%, which is not the same thing. And if it was harmful, and because it's a drug in the US, we would have had something that comes from the FDA that says, hey, we have data, this is harmful. We we gotta pull these drugs from the market because drug recalls happen all the time. Right. Because, like, oh, in like this study, we saw that it was harmful. We we have to pull these things from from the market because now we know that it's harmful. But now it's just kind of like people just making a lot of noise and like calling on the FDA to like do more things like, well, yeah, you're because you're making noise about nothing. Because like the FDA has all the all the data and like everything is fine. Like, even now, they're getting more data on those chemical builders to like kind of reassess and make sure that okay, everything is safe and effective at these percentages and everything is good. But yeah, there's just so many, there's so much misinformation out there around sun care, and it just makes people wearing it just that much more of a hurdle. Because there are all of the formulation can considerations like we're talking about before, like, oh, why is formula so greasy? Why does it break me out? All of that. And then on top of that, you know, people saying, oh, it's gonna give me cancer, all this stuff. It's like, well, no, none of that's true. So just trying to fight back against that has made it even harder to make like elegant formulas because now just people aren't using it in the first place. And then now when they do, it's like, okay, now, oh, I'm worried about this cancer thing. Oh, now I don't like the texture. I'm just not gonna wear it at all. It is, it's it's it's it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So there's no data out there to say that sunscreen's harmful for your health.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely not. Not a shred of evidence.

SPEAKER_00

And there's no data out there to say that sunscreen's harmful for the environment.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely not. So all of those things that come with like reef safety is a really big big one because like, oh, the like chemical filters, you know, bleach the coral reefs. So all that's is done like in a tank with putting the pure UV filter in the tank, which is very different than putting the product on someone's body and then getting into the water where you have like a very little bit of runoff into that product. And if you look at some of those same studies that say, oh, that like these chemical filters also bleach the coral reefs, zinc oxide also bleach the coral reefs in those studies. So if we're gonna look at it tit for tat, technically zinc oxide, which is like the main filter used in mineral sunscreens, is also not reef safe. So there's nothing that says that those UV filters at the level they're used in our products are going to be harmful. And there are so many other things that happen that are so much more harmful for the reefs. Cause some people are like, oh, it's happening, you know, where there are lots of people and because it's because of their wearing sunscreens. It's like, well, maybe because you have scuba divers and you have, you know, tourists all going down. Here, like at the reefs, all the time. Maybe that has something to do with it as well. Right. Yeah, it's there, there's so many other factors. And now, like, just sunscreen has become like the scapegoat. Yeah. All these things to kind of like mask all these bigger structural problems that are much harder not to crack, but it's so easy to just say, oh, hey, sunscreen's bad, we should ban it. And it's like, okay, great. But when these things don't improve after that, then it's like, oh, wait, maybe it's something else. There, then you have these bigger things that are much harder to tackle.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And sunscreen's so, you know, it's so it's so important to wear sunscreen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly. Like it's one of those things that's like, guys, it's it's an essential, like, especially if you are somewhere like here in Florida where it's very, very hot, or if you're in like Hawaii where it's even more hot. Like, there are these places where, like, yes, like sunscreen is essential if you're gonna be there. Now you have to like kind of fight all these battles to kind of get anyone to wear it initially, and then to make like cosmetically elegant formulas is another hurdle as well. It's really, really difficult to just kind of like kind of surmount everything to just get people to wear it at a at all.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Okay.

Favorite viral sunscreens

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, to end off this segment, is there a viral sunscreen besides the one that you said you loved, but like a very viral sunscreen that you absolutely love?

SPEAKER_01

Ooh. Oh gosh. My gosh, what are what are some viral sunscreens?

SPEAKER_00

I would say, I mean, I had a lot of them here, but like the super group is pretty viral.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, yeah, so Toby is pretty good.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like the fun ones are viral. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, because like super group is like iconic. Um, the vacation one, obviously. Like the those are like my like big two viral sunscreens.

SPEAKER_00

I'm glad I brought them back.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and oh, okay. I mean, they're it's it's hard to get in the US now, but the like relief sun from Beauty of Josun. Oh, it it was like viral for so long. Because it was just like it was a cream formula that people absolutely loved. It's not my personal favorite because it's it's a tiny, tiny bit ashy on me. But if you're like just a little bit lighter than me, it's absolutely fine. Um, but yeah, I think that that beauty of Jo San relief sun one is a really, really nice touch because it feels like a lightweight moisturizer.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

For so many people that was like a whoa, how do you have a sunscreen? That feels so light. It's so lightweight. I mean, that's that's the magic.

SPEAKER_00

That sounds nice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's that's the power of those of those UV filters that we can't get here in the States.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, okay. Wow, good to know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so to wrap up this episode, we're gonna end off with a little lightning round.

Lightning round

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So I will fire questions at you and you'll just give me a quick answer. Okay. All right, let's do it. So drugstore or luxury skincare, which is more often a scam.

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, a scam. Oh, luxury, easy.

SPEAKER_00

Is SPF and makeup actually doing anything?

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

Celebrity skincare, buy it or skip it. Skip it. Chemical or mineral sunscreen?

SPEAKER_01

Chemical for me.

SPEAKER_00

TikTok skincare hacks, mostly helpful or harmful?

SPEAKER_01

Harmful. There's there's there's so much more bad than the good.

SPEAKER_00

I agree. I've seen some crazy things.

SPEAKER_01

Some crazy stuff. Rub this banana all over your face. That's good.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, absolutely not.

One skincare advice everyone should follow

SPEAKER_00

All right, Julianne. Well, if you could give one piece of advice to skincare shoppers out there, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, wear sunscreen every single day. Chemical or mineral, doesn't matter. Just put it on your skin.

SPEAKER_00

There it is. You heard it here first.

SPEAKER_01

Easy.

Closing

SPEAKER_00

Okay, well, it was so great talking to you about sunscreen and skincare and just debunking all these viral products. And I had so much fun.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much for having me. This was an absolute blast.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. I'm so glad you had fun. Well, guys, this has been Face It where we get real about what works and what doesn't matter.