Energy Shockwaves: Geopolitics, Security, and the Cost of Fragility

In this episode of The ReVolting Podcast, Úna Brosnan and John MaCaskill unpack the growing energy shock rippling through global markets — and why events unfolding thousands of miles away are now hitting households, businesses, and supply chains across Europe and beyond.

Against the backdrop of escalating tensions in the Middle East and renewed disruption around the Strait of Hormuz, the conversation explores how energy security has once again moved to the centre of political and economic debate. From fuel prices and fertilizer supply to food security, shipping routes, and household energy bills, the episode examines how deeply interconnected modern energy systems have become - and how exposed many countries remain to geopolitical instability.

Reflecting on the lessons of the 2022 energy crisis, Úna and John discuss whether governments have genuinely strengthened resilience or simply replaced one dependency with another. The conversation explores the fragility of global supply chains, the risks created by market concentration and strategic bottlenecks, and why short-term crisis management often fails to deliver long-term structural change.

The discussion also turns to the UK and Europe’s energy transition, examining the challenges of grid infrastructure, electrification, energy storage, and system flexibility. From rooftop solar and battery storage to offshore wind, nuclear, and diversified energy mixes, the episode asks what a more resilient energy system might realistically look like - and what it could cost.

Beyond Europe, the conversation highlights the disproportionate impact of energy shocks on developing economies and island nations, where import dependence leaves communities especially vulnerable to volatility in global markets.

A wide-ranging discussion on energy security, resilience, infrastructure, and the growing intersection between geopolitics and everyday life — and why the next phase of the energy transition may be defined as much by stability and sovereignty as by decarbonisation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back everyone. My name is Zuna Brosen.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

And I'm John McCaskill.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

And welcome back to the Revolting Podcast. So, John, we had a really good conversation with Jonathan Cole in our last uh episode. Um, it was really interesting just to get, I suppose, get outside our bubble as such and and hear from others on where we are in the energy uh situation, I'll call it right now.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Well is it's because I mean we enjoy our conversations and and and we hope others do too. But having uh you know someone else in with with therefore with their unique um uh sort of ideas, and this was fun for me because I loved the the you know the episode we did with with with Rebecca Shirley because it was on an area that is totally new for me and it's fascinating. Of course, this was kind of home turf, yeah. A little bit absolutely a little bit home turf, we both know Jonathan. But it through that lens, because I mean you know, I've not been a C I don't remember, have I? No, I've not been a CEO of two of two major, major developers, you know, or this so the the the lens that Jonathan brought was was really interesting for for me. So I thoroughly enjoyed that, especially with so much happening at the moment in energy and geopolitics.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of geopolitics, I mean we've a really good conversation today, and and and it we could be here forever talking about the geopolitics. I think it's been a you know a trilogy, uh uh uh comedy, a tragedy God knows what else, and there's probably a whole second series on it as well to come. But um, you know, trying to unpack that today, I think it'd be really interesting. We touched on a little bit around, you know, the turbines, the geopolitics around what's happening in the Middle East, but very much, I suppose, again, the big debate on the North Sea um oil and gas side. What we'd like to do today is I suppose go a little deeper into that and and really bring it backing back into everyday life and what's happening with us at the minute, and looking at some of the events that happened over the last um days and weeks, it's not even months at this point.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

It's about exposure exposure. So I mean it's been it's been it's really hard to uh ignore this energy shot, whether it's in our pockets, whether it's on X, whether it's on the news. He's not the only orange man who's got a problem with the Pope, I believe. No. Um but um we can't ignore it. Yeah. It's it's hitting us. I mean, so what I thought our idea for today was to basically try and unpack this around from this, you know, shock, this, you know, which is you know, regional but not regional, and how that impacts effectively our wallets and the our our systems. So that's what we wanted to try and explore today, or at least give it a go.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Absolutely. And for me, and for me personally, anyway, I think it's about explaining it to people, you know, on the that are not necessarily involved in the energy side because we're seeing a lot of pain. Um coming from look looking back home. I was home in the last few weeks and and looking at what's happened in the the protests in Ireland around the fuel side, you're obviously seeing it in Northern Ireland and the UK as well. But I suppose this is where I it's really starting to resonate in everyone's um life at the minute, and really hitting it from a food security perspective, an energy perspective, and you know, livelihoods are at stake at this point. So trying to give a little bit of background to those who might not be familiar with the energy sector and the geopolitics around that. So without further ado, we will get stuck in. So I suppose look, very much orientated watching what's happening in the Middle East at the minute, and we're we're all I think there isn't a person out there that doesn't know what the Strait of Hermoose is or where it is at this point. It's been one of the the key geography lessons, I think, for everyone. But I mean, looking at the you know what oil tankers mean globally, the impact of that that strait and how it's affecting everyone, and and really, really resonating on a global perspective. I think there's very little countries um globally that are not affected at the minute. And this this isn't about just the war, it's very much oriented or how quickly this turned into an energy security um issue, how it turned into you know an issue around food, uh, discussion around um how we how we support our farmers, particularly around getting access into fertilizers and looking at the the chemical side as well. So it isn't even just about energy, it's more about scarcity and the our exposure very much oriented around that that's um that scarcity and the the energy side. So I suppose let's maybe get a little unpack unpack that element a little bit more. So what what are your thoughts, John, over the over the the the last few weeks? I mean the I mean what's drawn you in, I suppose, and what what's captured your eye? I mean we all look at the energy side as a whole, what is your take on it?

SPEAKER_02 5:04

So I mean we'll start off at the top, which is why this shock matters, I suppose, is the um so this has come pretty much hot off the heels of 2022.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Which was an energy shock. Um that one was quite regional, so you know, Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Europe was heavily reliant on gas flows from from Russia, and that had a massive impact to us. Now that resulted in a number of things being done in Europe. Now, this is different, it's not in Europe. You know, in fact, we don't take a large percentage, so I mean there's about 20% of the world's gas or something comes from uh from the streets or or or or moose, most of that goes to Asia. Yeah. But what this demonstrates is that we've moved from a reliance from you know from that supplier to an exposure m on a very much on a global level because the gas that is not going to um uh to to Asia they then buy on the market, and there could be an LNG carrier coming to Europe that gets turned around and goes back because it's a highest bidder, so it's price. So basically, we are exposed to this this price shock. So you get the price shock before you start running out of gas anyway. So it's it's it's we've we're now we've removed our sort of addiction, uh reliance on that one supplier, and we're now reliant on we're now exposed to a global gas market that's that's well not just gas market, but all the chemical, all the products that that are revolved that comes out of the street hormouth, because we'll talk about some of the other stuff that this impacts as well. So for me it's it's another every shock is different. You know, the the 73, you know, the the the the the early 70s, 22, it's all different. But it all tells us the same thing, which is that we're reliant on that we were exposed to something that could be impacted negatively in terms of it's in terms of the the supply. So we're relying on supply, so we don't have security. So that's at a very high level before we start saying what it impacts. Um the the thing that annoys me is that yes, we have moved on, so we are more resilient in Europe than we were in 22, without a shadow of a doubt. We've just created some different dependencies or different exposures, but do we ever go far enough?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Or have we just replaced another dependency?

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, and and and do we go far enough actually, or are we kind of hitting the snooze button a bit too much? You know what I mean? So deal with it, like you know, we we've sorted out the short-term issues, we've done a couple of bits, but and all of a sudden we're surprised when the next you know, when the next one hits.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Absolutely. And you're seeing like what's I suppose what's really grabbing people's attention is because that war is so far away this time, you know, Ukraine was on our doorstep, that the impact and the severity of the impact it's having on our bills here is is quite sharp. And how that could could come to fruition. I suppose my frustration is um, and and I will say I wasn't hugely familiar with the the Strait of Hormuz in that much detail now, but I was amazed that like looking at this and looking at saying where we had the um maybe the Houthis um in the last 18 months uh causing uh restrictions on say the the Red Sea and the Suez, that we didn't see this coming or we didn't have elements of preparedness there, particularly around you know getting a pipeline through, it would have been a short distance through a relatively I suppose friendly Oman to get something out into open seas. It it it we missed a trick. It feels like we've missed a trick.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

We built a system that was very friendly to the market, yeah that then exposes how fragile it is. Because basically, if you control a bottleneck or a pinch point, you control everything. Yeah. And you know, it's international waters, but there is now, you know, that you know, there's now there's basically a conflict over managing that pinch point and that that bottleneck. And you know, this is not about how that came about or the rights and wrongs, it's just about the fact that it is and what the impact is on us in terms of energy. So I think we've just built up, you know, we we've it's been exposed how fragile our system that we s that still is, our energy system it still is today, how fragile it is.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah, and what can we do? Oh like we are in the mess we're in now, and it's a case of I suppose is this going to push us forward or backwards in how we debate energy or how we we we resist future sharks or a continuation of this shark because we certainly are seeing we are seeing Mr. Orange not exactly give us any too many options in trying to find a a moment of diplomacy. I'm holding my breath here at the minute, but I mean what can we do?

SPEAKER_02 10:00

You know, is this going to be well the th I mean the the continuing for our bills? The thing is that you know we we we've agreed that we are exposed. We've agreed that there seems to be an alarm that goes off every time we sort of, you know, you have this. We we we we do a number of things which are all good, we we then muck about, we panic at the edges, um but nothing fundamentally changes because we've got a price shock. At the end of the day, we've got a price shock, yeah. Right? So regardless of where it comes from, uh you know, the stuff at the petrol tank's going up, food's gonna be go going up, so nothing has changed in that. We've just you know um I mean so we're exposed. So why is why why is the UK exposed and how different are we from say France and Spain in terms of exposure? Let's start digging into this.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, absolutely. I mean in the UK, I suppose it look, we've been caught on the hop, to be honest, a little bit. Our infrastructure hasn't followed the pace of um the generation side and the development side, particularly you're seeing, you know, caught trying to get business cases over the line for the likes of of um of offshore wind, but I would say, you know, it's not solely offshore wind, some of the onshore projects as well are suffering because they're they're at the um at the back of of things called tenue as charges or basically transmission charges, which is making it very, very difficult at the minute to secure connections and also to secure your business case because of the escalation in those transmission side. Um, we obviously do have the energy mix is shaking up quite a bit in the UK, and I suppose that the dynamics around that are are are are showing some fractures in the likes of Spain and Portugal. You've seen or sorry, Spain and um France, you've seen high concentrations of penetration of solar and wind on the onshore side, particularly in in Spain, and then obviously the in the inclusion of nuclear then in the French side, and you've got quite established nuclear facilities in there. I will say new new nuclear coming in is coming in at a higher price, but because they've got that legacy in the background, it is supporting them. And the interconnection side is you know, they are the mainland. Um, they've got options around interconnection. I will say, you know, the likes of Spain has seen its hiccups. Um, you know, uh you've seen the grid go down. Um, and you know, by no means I don't think that's going to be the first time we're going to see a grid going down. I think we need we need to get that investment in and and making sure that we have that exposure. But at the end of the day, we're we're exposed to global market and global market prices of oil and gas.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

And we're exposed to it until we don't use it.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

And to me, one of the the one of the problem, one of the challenges we've got in the UK is so you mentioned the generation side. So about you know 31% is still reliant on gas.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Which which also drives the market price.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

But also, I mean I I don't have a heat source pump, right? So I'm one of the, you know, okay, in in England, about 86% of all housing stock is gas central heated in some way.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

I'm in Scotland and I've got a gas sense central heater. Future proof, supposedly, with hydrogen, but uh putting out extra jumpers. Yeah. So but but basically that now that is a you know, so that is a difficult thing thing to move. So I mean we're in an industry, you know, we we we build offshore wind farms. Uh we've we've got industry colleagues that do onshore wind farms and and battery energy storage and solar and stuff. But getting people off gas boilers is it's not sexy.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

No.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Right? But it seems to be a difficult bloody thing that the government hasn't sorted yet. No government's sorted yet. So that means that even if we get to marginal elements of gas in the power sector and we sort of you know change the market price, it's still gonna hit our energy bills because we're so exposed. So I think the UK has an inherent real difficult problem that we need to, and that's beyond that's uh and that's before you get to transportation and and other stuff as well. So we are significantly exposed in the UK. I think it was the the World Bank said that we're probably out of the G20 or something, we're gonna be the most impacted economy.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yes, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

By the thing, you know, it's it's uh this is this must be part of it. So um yeah, I mean, so have we so have we just reduced, you know, we've not reduced the risk, we've just got to do it.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah, yeah, it's it's I mean for me it's it's I feel like we've just you know since the Ukraine crisis, we've really kind of almost hit the snooze button as you keep you referenced before. You know, we've we've kind of went, look, that was really, really hard. We'll we'll park that one for a while, we probably won't see another geophysical.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Well we've sorted that, we just get it in from Qatar now.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Get it in from Qatar. But even like you look at and and this is something which was in the press more recently in the likes of I'll give an example example from home, was the refinery side, and looking at um Ireland's it has got quite a bit of capacity on the refinery side for petrol. But actually, with the fuel crisis, it was diesel that was missing, and we thought we were um scaling back on the diesel. I will say I have had a diesel car, it's recently transitioned, but um the exposure on the volume of diesel required, but then also the volume of refinery that's availability, the capacity in the markets, and similarly here in the UK as well. Looking at elements like that, it's really going right through our supply chain. But then you bring it into the likes of um food security, and I did not realise that our amount of fertilizer the amount of fertilizer that's coming out of the Middle East and the dependency we have on that, which then triggers into your um your food security side. We would have talked about Ukraine as being the breadbasket for for um Europe and Africa, and actually it had quite a quite a bit of reach. How did we manage to get ourselves into another dependency so quickly? Is you know how how were we not um looking at this from a holistic pers uh perspective uh perspective? And I suppose is this something as governments, as EU, um collectively in Europe, we need to be looking at robust, more robust systems and processes on taking that higher view on whether it's energy or food or it's um uh ship shipping as such and the routes and how they're changing. I do think we need to probably get out of that government cyclic um approach and maybe bring it up to a more stable, longer, longer term view.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

I think I mean yeah, I mean it's gonna be I think Jonathan mentioned it the other week when he was talking about the energy transition side that in the short term it's actually gonna impact r renewables. So if you wider out, I think at the moment, in the short term, it's gonna be incredibly messy. So you've got countries in Asia you know going back to thermal coal a little bit, you've got even Germany doing a little bit of thermal thermal coal. I think governments need to do what you need to do in the short term. You know what I mean? It's it's just you know it it's that's what they do, so it becomes really messy. My worry is that they get is that the the the crisis eases and they go phew. You know what I mean? They've they they they they undo the all the little things, the the you know, the little subsidies they've put in, the caps they've put in, all this kind of stuff, and go phew, and and and they get hit by the same thing again. Yeah. And the issue is is that this one is quite different from Ukraine because you've got the g you know you've got the the the the fuel, you have the energy, the gas, you've got food with the fertilizers, which is you said urea, ammonia, a whole bunch of things that comes out of there. Um you've got this you've then got the um shipping and logistical costs, you know, because basically all of a sudden things will have to be transported maybe further. You've got costs of shipping, you've got things being transported further, and then you've got insurance and finance. Right? So you you're there there's like a there's almost like three waves of things. And as you said, to really try and sort of to properly address these, we need to be looking at things properly in government. So yes, sort out what you need to do, yeah. Do what you need to do to get over the next year or whatever it is, um, and then try and sort this out. But going back to what you said about the impact on people, I mean that's the UK and the West, isn't it? I was reading I can't remember, I don't it's not on this page and it's going to take me five minutes of looking down to change it. But basically there was um we'll stick it in the show notes, right? We'll stick these sources in this in the show notes. But basically, um um uh a week ago the estimate is that if this that basically this could easily um put another 45 million people globally into poverty.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yeah, which is shocking, like absolutely shocking.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Because the West richer nations have shock absorbers by their affluence. Yeah. Right? Things will cost a bit more. And there's people in society that won't be able to cover that. So that's not I'm not making a broad brush statement on that. But there's societies, there's countries that this will hit really badly. I mean, you know, food, you know, fertilizer costs go up. Yeah, people that are on ridiculously low monthly salaries, you know, the price of a costa, which is sickening, that kind of thing. That is a massive impact to them.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

And it it's so it this this has a a massive impact.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Yeah. And I mean from a social perspective, we talk about the the divide and the growing divide between the rich and and the poor, um, even here in the UK. But actually looking at it from, you know, as you say, at a country level, um, you know, some of the island nations are particularly being hit here, particularly, I suppose, those dependent. And one springs to mind is is Mauritius as an example. And I could pull numerous um uh island communities, you know, they don't have the lands, the land space or the land mass basically to have a strong, high concentration of renewables, or they haven't, they've just been heavily dependent on oil and um oil and gas-based or everything imported basically. Imported. I mean, some of like the likes of um Mauritius is a hundred percent import on on oil-based products. So uh what how are you seeing that? Then it's a case of you know, everything right across that island is as such as being hit by a price uh a rise. Um, you're seeing impacts then on actually travel in there, the cost of food. I was I was so shocked. Um, I have a colleague who I worked with uh off the the back of the shadow board in Renewab, UK, she's Mauritian, and she was telling me about she brings home broccoli. And maybe I shouldn't say that from a border control perspective, but she brings broccoli at home. I love it, absolutely love it, but it's so expensive on the island. Something so you know, uh something we take for granted here in Europe that that can cost such a such a price, I suppose, disproportionately disproportionately um in Mauritius, which is hugely disappointing. But like even if you bring it down to the the the human level, you know, even for that individual to travel home, you know, will they be able to get back um more regularly or less regularly? Are they going to have to and Mauritius is very heavily uh weighted towards you know routing its flights through the likes of the Middle East as well. So that's going to disrupt, you know, from a even from a air traffic perspective, um, not to mind the shipping side. Although I think maybe with the shipping and the the Red Sea again disrupted, actually, in some cases it may actually help the cause with some of the further shipping having to go around the the um the Horn of Africa quite a bit more, even. But you are seeing that um that gap. widening and and that's quite a concern. What we're trying to do is minimise that and we we're trying to minimize the the global impact and bring these communities together. They will not have the you know the the the the money in country then to invest in renewables and and get them off the addiction to to oil-based products or gas-based products whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Yeah the m I mean I think there there's that that there is going to be a cut I mean because there's there's large affluent more affluent island nations yeah in Southeast Asia and stuff like this but then there's these more yeah you know totally different in terms of that level of of uh industrialization or uh resources like yeah resources right um and they just don't I mean I I don't know how much room they've got to maneuver. I mean they do they've got virtually no room to manage.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

No I think it's 80% there or 80% of their island capacity is is is on oil or gas which is again which which is 100% imported. They do have some elements of bio biogas from sugarcane basically and some penetration of solar and onshore solar and wind but it's very very small and then of course because of their their position uh globally you don't have that connection or interconnection like we do we're we're lucky to have in the likes of Europe um or you see um in the US as well but um look I think it's something it's bringing it down you know look some of the poorest whole households are really feeling the energy shock here and it's how do they observe uh absorb that right now how are we going to change um the dynamics around that and making sure that we can bring equity in it I don't think there's an easy answer right now but it's it's no I think it's a colder sort of colder world than it was a few years ago which is awful but I think it's it's yeah uh I mean the we're seeing I mean the thing that's not going to help is we see we see international institutions weakening at this point.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Yeah right now the whole point of that was to try and bring that kind of you know equanimity the you know sort of a a justice or law international law to things it's a it's it's um it's not a good yeah the rise of a the rise of what we're seeing in terms of sort of sovereignty becoming more important energy security making sure that your region or your country doesn't help these smaller places at all. So it's it's it's it's it's very worrying. But you touched on sort of you know their exposure to oil and gas and uh or fossils and you know and some of the renewables that they can do. I mean let's let's track back and look at the energy transition here. I mean so how does this I mean there's been a lot there's been a lot of um media and and stuff around this but I mean how do you see this this impacting energy security over the short and medium term?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah I mean from energy security perspective I it's very much in in the in the cross areas at the minute um I think we we have got a lot of exposure um but I I think there's elements we can do in the short term like looking at decentralized um energy renewables in particular you're seeing a lot of households now really lean into the into rooftop solar or whatever ground mounted whatever it may be um I know from personal family experience we certainly have seen a number of our extended family get those get those solar panels up fairly lively and um they mightn't have looked at it um otherwise otherwise or it would have been quick enough but like it makes sense you know going back to your your uh your point there on the heat pumps we probably looked at it a little bit too much in isolation we needed to be looking at combining bringing that flexibility in we're seeing the grid say with the likes of um the build out in the UK at the minute and the importance of making sure that we have flex in there and having that that pivot we've seen exposure as well around say resilience during storms and I think this is starting to sharpen the the the focus and and making sure that we think of plan B which we haven't been good at um by no means we are making isolated decisions which we need to have backups and start maybe scenario planning a couple of these in our in our background um I think you'll probably see a lot of individuals starting to think about you know off the grid and what would it look like and how would I how would I survive a storm if it came in this way. That's that's going to be the reality it's certainly a rural thing but I mean if you're in an urban built up environment yeah yeah you know that you know off the grid in an apartment for C well it's about your jumpers in Glasgow I think it is it's very quickly but I mean you know it it opened up quite a bit of exposure and um I suppose a lot of food for thought in with Storm Owen coming in um last year in particular well the the West of Ireland took an awful brunt of it the Scotland took a huge brunt of it as well I mean this was uh it was a red uh red storm from if memory is serving me right but like if you've got an EV which you know after a week of power out grid outages your EV is well dead at that point but if you had a little bit of rooftop solar and you had a little bit of weather to g you will you will get something but making sure that you've got plan B there you've got resilience in what what stores you have you know whether it's food or just being able to just get over those five days they do this in the likes of Florida you know they think about plan B. It might be a diesel generator in some cases in Florida but they do do think about this a little bit more because of the hurricanes you you get in I mean yeah quite say you'll you'll have full resilience around Cat 5 but certainly around cat three and four they have that that thought process and I think I do think we need to drive a little bit more resilience into us here. From an energy transition perspective I think this will pay this will hurry it up we need to think faster we need our policy um policy and infrastructure to follow suit and make sure that particular the grid infrastructure gains pace and it's it's pushed through at this point within reason needs to be balanced as well but um making sure that we are we are um supporting that build out because generation has probably got ahead of it and obviously our market design needs quite a bit of um uh looking at uh particularly in the in the north of Scotland when you're when you're exploring um tune as charges but it comes down to the end it's it's energy mix we need to start driving really resilience in our energy mix and whether that's a bit of of offshore wind or onshore solar oil and gas from the the North Sea or it's nuclear I think that's where we need to find the balance.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

I think I think the I think mix yeah so I I think you're right with mix um I think also a system approach. Yeah which is kind of the same thing but a system approach yeah um and and also I think it's I mean so I I I am perfectly okay with nuclear 100% okay with nuclear if you can get it built and if you can finance it at the right price. Yeah and then that goes for everything yeah and that goes for for everything. Now the thing is though right the if you if if you if a country is really really serious about energy security and sovereignty that ain't cheap. The cheapest system you can have on a day to day basis will be probably the most fragile which as soon as you stress test like we've had that's when it all falls down. So the most resilient the most secure will not be cheap. And is that is that a cost potentially that you know do you think we're willing as a society are we willing to pay that kind of you know a bill that's going to be that that that needs.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yeah and I mean the the real cost of that hasn't come become apparent yet I think we really need to to lean into that and I think you know can we afford to pay it is the other is the other thing at the moment because we've been hit with so many shocks how do we how do we um rebalance some of the costing structure I think is going to be really important but I don't think we can shy away from the cost. I do think we need to number one it needs to be we need evidence based to to make sure that we can get these business cases but we need to work with communities and we talk about communications and and outreach and making sure that we can we can work with communities and the general public to understand the why and the where we can flex and how we um how we attack this one. I think driving that equity you know whether it's diversify diversification basically in in fuels you know at home or in wider industry but also building resilient supply chain and making sure that you know we can take that shock out of the supply chain we're not going on a boomer and bust. We are unfortunately seeing a lot of supply chain under pressure at the minute because of that cost differential where it's you know the likes of um you know your Hauliers at the minute because of the the fuel um you know they are they are hugely important for our food security perspective how do we deal with that is it a transition with um looking at how we we modify some of our policies from a a car you know from a an excise or tax perspective and then couple it up with trying to drive electrification or alternative modes for for um driving more fuel efficiency or looking at other alternatives into the into the fleet.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

The grid storage I mean we talked about the flexibility I think that's going to be key and looking at that distribution uh you know this distribution uh you know looking at say that rooftop solar I think is going to be key as well um but paying for this it will not be cheap it will not we're all not and this is the thing it's it's it's I mean I think we need to be honest we need to have an honest discussion as you know as a nation as a region as a as an an EU on this because either we don't care for energy security as much as we say and we accept the cr a crisis every five or ten years. I don't think my nerves could take it a crisis every five ten years at theoretically there is a there is a theoretical or academic view that actually is that is that a more cost effective thing over the long term than interesting yeah I hadn't thought of it that way than than the high cost. Now I I I don't know why I thought I disagree with that but you know but but but kind of that's the world we're in yeah because we don't sort it um and um but I mean so you've convinced me by the by the way because as you know I moved house in December Oh yes yeah yeah yeah and because it's a new house that's got solar panels on it and I've got an EV charger yeah though I've only got a a hybrid at the at the moment but I don't have a button I don't have storage.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

I don't have storage and that is you know that's a like a plan that's a plan B because if because I mean it's great I can trickle it but actually I could store it and use it a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

And it's funny that came really to the forefront around that storm owned um because a lot of a lot of domestic facilit or domestic homes had had the solar but they didn't have the battery. And I think there's an education element there that was missed out. Whereas now I think if you have that conversation around um uh getting solar you're you're probably advised a little sharper because that plan B was brought in but it should have been there from the start you know the economics the the balancing of that should have been and the sensible view of a new home should include that as well because it should be a system.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yeah yeah you know it should be like a resilient a much more energy resilient yeah property.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

I remember um being at a conference actually it was an onshore conference by Scottish Renewables and this was probably while you're chatting I'm I'm getting the the uh eight nine years ago I oh you're going for a suite so basically I remember there was a gentleman in from and I'm not familiar with this but there was a guy from uh Red Dwarf and he was talking about Dan Coxwood's going yeah he was really really good actually um but he was talking about you know the interconnection and this the storage facility between his electric EV he had a he had a I think it was like a slimline dishwasher he was talking about equivalent size for a battery in his kitchen and then they were talking about um how this community was one of the pilot areas for this back in we must have been eight ten years ago now but um it's funny how long that took and now we're only dawning into this so you know it there's a gap there as well how do we fill that knowledge gap how do we accelerate and lean into things like this and I mean you know even if we look at say going back to the Ukraine war how the tables have turned very quickly on the the the technology perspective where we're looking to Ukraine for their technology for the likes of or we as in the US are are looking at the technology that's used in drones to support some of the the conflict in in the Middle East right now. But how that that table has turned so quickly we we probably wouldn't have seen that before the technology because of what's happening in in Ukraine has has escalated and advanced so much that it it it has had again going back to that leaffrogging side it's completely jumped and uh you know the where the the superpower was has now gone can we somehow please which is quite refreshing I mean sticking with the energy transition side it just while you were speaking there it reminded me of something again that we got from from Jonathan's which was the the we were chatting about the the different drivers of renewables.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

You know how you know because we were chatting about that you know climate carbon yeah and stuff like this I mean renewables isn't just low carbon in this environment of security that's actually about control. If you have generation with renewables local renewables whether that's national local or regional local that brings control. Yeah and I you know you can that has a decent price control going back to the energy security side and that's something you don't get with fossil fuels unless you know you're a fossil you know you're a petrol state which we're not um so it's it's the I think that's I think the potential for the energy transition as you said over the medium to long term is incredibly strong. It just underlines again that we need to electrify our economies.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yeah and it's uh we need to electrify but we need stability and going back to that you know it's it's driving stability and and reducing the the impact if a shock comes I'm really hoping there isn't a shock every every four three to five years.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

What makes a system less volatile what can make a system less volatile or more resilient? Because it's the same thing isn't it more resilient in this case we mean less volatile.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Yeah yeah yeah so what can make what what what aspects of a system yeah I think that look like at a national level at a UK level what I suppose decoupling a little bit from those international hotspots or diversifying as much as we can I mean again the mix yeah going back to that mix I mean how we've got twenty percent of oil coming out of um the Strait of Hermoose but how you're looking at going where's the rest of the 80% if we all scaled back by 20% would we not a lot of it's across a drill baby drill land is it? Possibly yeah God love us um but not going there for my LNG quite yet but I hope not anyway um but yeah absolutely I think it's decoupling and making sure that we can stand our own two feet whether it's from an energy perspective or a supply chain perspective and just being smarter and how we diversify I do think we need to put time into thinking where we buy our products from whether it's food it's it's um components or it's um energy itself.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

There was an interesting thing on the radio I was listening to about supermarkets and they were sort of talking about that parts of the supermarkets should be moved toward now I don't know if they're talking about whether a supermarket's doing this or not or whether it's theoretical but it was basically where an area is just what is produced this month. So in other words it's an it's a you know how because when you go to to apples it's always apples there. If you go to this it's always there. So it's like and there's a cost to that because not because in the UK not everything is grown locally yet you know so you can imagine the transport cost of some of these things go up and down. If you could see a bar chart above the products so they were saying there should be an area like light you know that that's just for that and they were talking about well Lidl's kind of does that with the anything aisle but it's all products just basically they just buy there's there's a liquor is it is it little or is it aldi the stamps I think both actually they've got this aisle that basically obviously the buyer says I've just bought 200 fishing rods so they shove 250 but it's like food.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Right? So basically seasonal local and and it's just in crates or something and it's just there and then we get used to you know cooking with stuff. It's seasonal again. I mean that's what I was brought up with seasonal food.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Sounding really old I remember the days with your mottonhead jellies next to my I always noticed the French are really good at that. They always have been brilliant at it going back to their roots like in and that side. Yeah but we've I I think we yeah the English speaking we I think we're suffering from being part of the English speaking yeah yeah yeah when it comes when it comes to processed food because it's a product yeah yeah yeah absolutely well look uh to bring this to a conclusion we've been talking about this quite a bit and and we and we we we we don't want to depress ourselves too much but I I you know it's it's difficult times but certainly you know there is there's opportunity here and certainly I think there's a lot of opportunity for us to to close the gap on this and because it's exposed it.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Yeah because the thing is it's exposed it we should be able to fix it. My worry is snooze that's my worry my my worry is that it's exposed it we'll you know we'll have pain the government politicians will try and get over the next sort of six months to to to nine months and we press snooze again with one or two exceptions. That's that is mess my worry. Yeah absolutely and certainly I suppose look for the some of our future episodes we're going to dive a little bit more into the grid side and and try and unpack them a little bit from different angles but I suppose looking at the next kind of uh for lack of another word the battlefields um going forward you know whether it's it's looking at the minerals um you know looking at fertilizers looking at shipping routes I think that's something would be worth just kind of un driving a little bit deeper and maybe we bring in some speakers in in the future maybe around value chains within the energy systems and the food systems and and the you know it's the pitch points it's going back to which pinch points or bottlenecks could someone in ten years time impact at if we've sorted this out it's a bit like chasing the um the the um constraint yeah yeah when's the you know it's like we've sorted that and now it moves somewhere else yeah absolutely and God forbid um I've seen Mr Orange again uh referencing back to Greenland and I suppose his eyes on the ball and looking at the next battlefield when it comes to that mineral side but how do we navigate the politics for the next one to make sure that we don't get in the position we are with the with the lights of the Middle East but um let's let's dive into leave that for the next episode uh or the next few down the line um again thank you for everyone for joining us today um it's been certainly uh a turbulent couple of weeks and months uh looking at the geopolitics so hopefully this gives you a little bit of of background into it John any um any further thoughts on from you just that I I think it's it's um being involved in energy is never boring yeah I mean it it can be it can be disheartening some sometimes but it's never boring um but it continually underlines to me how important it is yeah how linked it is to to wealth affluence bringing people out of poverty you know it is absolutely the most important thing if you don't have energy or plentiful energy you don't have a healthy economy and I think therefore it's it has to be an absolute strategic thing for the government this has exposed the last couple of months has exposed uh the cracks and we need to basically face up with them and if it means a cost we need to say is that the the cost of resilience so I'd I'd definitely to do that also like to thank again the the team behind the cameras yes everyone's all away there we go um so yeah I'd like to thank everyone for that I thought it's um it's been a really interesting chat and we're looking forward in a few weeks' time busy little period coming up we're back in the conference circuit circuit yeah and we will and we're looking forward to Wind Energy Ireland yeah absolutely wind energy island is coming up at the end of of of May and I think we've a little bit something special in there and John is going to expose me to a little bit more resilience uh when it comes to metal. Yes yeah yeah so um yeah so uh if anyone is going to Wind Energy Island and you've got uh the Monday night free which is the twenty fifth yeah I think it is yeah yeah we've got a a revolting podcast outing the American rock band called Clutch uh being supported by the Belfast band um oh bloody hell.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

We'll put it in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

That's terrible because my mate is going, absolutely loves them. Um, ten ton slug.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Ten ton slug. Yeah. There we go. I kind of forget that. I'm looking forward to.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

So yeah, so if anyone's going, let us know. Get yourself a ticket because our budgets don't go that far. Uh, but uh basically connect with Una and I and we'll we'll all get a Guinness before we we uh go otherwise we'll look forward to seeing you at Wind Energy. Oh and before that or after that.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Before that, we have all energy all energy as well in Glasgow.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

And me personally, I'm I'm uh chairing a port session at Synergy in Mont.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Yes, very nice.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

So and that's roughly that's gonna be exciting because of course the French the French auctions have combined to about 10 gigawatts of their going in the auction. So so um so that that'll be quite exciting. So yeah, we're full on into the conference.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

And I can't not mention our UK global offshore. Um will be in I think it's mid-June. Uh we're going to Manchester again. Manchester. Yes. So it's uh always a very, very vibrant city, and looking forward to to meeting everyone there again. But um, yeah, so look, as I say, uh give us a shout if you're gonna be attending any of these events. Um, certainly um I think we need to get everyone to subscribe to make sure make sure everyone's gonna hit this one. John usually does it, but click the link below, subscribe, and um, we're really looking forward to to meeting you out in the circuit and um looking forward to our next um event. I think it's gonna be a really good um looking forward discussion over the next couple of couple of weeks and months um with what we've got lined up. So I'll take the I'm Una Brosnan of the Revolting Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

I'm John McCaskill, so keep the rotors turning and the heads banging, and we'll see you soon.