Live at Wind Energy Ireland: Offshore Wind, Industrial Strategy, and the Execution Challenge

In this special live episode of The ReVolting Podcast, recorded at the Wind Energy Ireland Annual Conference in Dublin, Úna Brosnan and John MacAskill take to the stage to explore one of the defining questions facing the energy transition: how do ambitious targets become delivered projects?

Against the backdrop of growing pressure to accelerate offshore wind deployment across Ireland, the UK, and Europe, the conversation examines the shift from vision and policy-setting to the harder realities of execution. From grid infrastructure and transmission planning to investor confidence, project finance, supply chain readiness, and industrial strategy, the discussion explores the practical barriers standing between political ambition and successful delivery.

Drawing comparisons between Ireland’s emerging offshore wind market and the more mature UK sector, Úna and John discuss the lessons both countries can learn from one another. The conversation highlights the importance of maintaining momentum through early project delivery, creating visibility for investors and suppliers, and balancing short-term priorities with long-term market development.

A wide-ranging discussion on offshore wind deployment, grid infrastructure, industrial strategy, energy security, and the challenge of turning ambition into action - and why the next phase of the energy transition may depend less on setting targets and more on delivering them.

Transcript

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So John, welcome to Dublin. Thank you very much. It really pleased to be here. It's very weird. We've all done panels before and we've obviously been recording our podcast in a nice little studio in Edinburgh. But for some reason this felt really different, a bit more of a performance. But we were delighted to be asked. It's great, it's great fun to be able to do this here and uh record. And of course we saw Stephen yesterday, so we we didn't need to be the first. Yeah, absolutely. And it's uh look, we've got a really good um lineup and good discussion today. We want to get you involved. And these are, you know, don't be afraid of the hard questions. We've got Marcus and Jane over here who are going to be our producers today and firing that firing those questions. We are seeing everything blank. We're trying not to script this. We've got a couple of polls. Um we've got two. One to kick off your telephone at the start just to get you involved, but um a little bit more serious one then around industrial strategy and supply chain a little bit later. We really value your input, but please get those questions in and we'll do our best to answer as many as we can. And if you don't catch us, you'll see us outside. But um, without further ado, I think John, um let's do a quick, I suppose, for those who don't know us, my name is Una Brosnan. I have a carrying accent. Um I am home, this is home territory for me, very much based in Glasgow. I'm John McCaskell, uh consultant at large, and uh yeah, and co-founder and and partner with the uh uh Revolting Podcast. And so I'm John McCaskell and we are The Revolting Podcast. Thank you. Welcome. Right, okay. So before we get into this, uh how is your years from the Monday Monday? John, you brought me to you brought me to Dublin and I landed with uh a certain bolt. Um very much I mean my first experience on uh metal to be honest. I I've done a few gigs probably over the years, but in a zero metal experience. It was really good, really good. I really liked uh I'm wearing I'm wearing Tentil slugs, um, t-shirt, they were quite impressive. Funny chat. It was so for those who who don't know or didn't see the the pre-social, so I wanted to sort of get uh you know a dipper toes. Now it wasn't the most metal of metal. I would call clutch the US band. If you take ACDC Powerage era, for those that know, uh put a bit of funk in it, a little bit of Led Zeppelin, and then inject it into Queens of the Stone Age, that's what clutch is. So they're sort of more raucous, they're more bouncy. Um but you took quite a lighting to the support band playing on Home Tough 10 ton Slug. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, they were from Galway. Um, I mean, yeah, I give it to them. I was definitely yeah, new introduction on the on their style of music. But uh the chat was pretty interesting, even though you were struggling to understand. Yeah, but it was it was it was great to see the home band and clutch were excellent, absolutely excellent. So, yeah, let's let's see more to come, maybe. I think we're gonna have to check out the scene in Glasgow and Edinburgh maybe over the next couple of months and see if we can. We'll have we'll have some live podcast nights at Greg's. I'm not gonna return yet, or not quite bring Westlife and Boys on to you quite yet. Not that I'm a fan. But um, I suppose let's get stuck in today, I think, John. We've lost the Yeah, we've had our first poll, I think. Um if we could get that up on the screen again, and we were talking about having a little bit of uh fun with it. Um so what are the phrases what's everyone saying? Yeah, what are the phrases you're most uh tired of hearing in energy? I know I'm certainly weary of a few of them. And uh I think coming out on top seems to be the Saudi Arabia of Wind. Well, the thing is, being a Scot, we've heard that ad infinitum uh in Scotland, the Saudi Arabia of wind. Uh, you know, our wind with Danish or German wind uh wind turbines with companies from elsewhere and all the rest of it without any supply chain. So but we get sick of it with the Arabia Wind because we can have all the resource, but it's ever as we've seen over the last two days, the trick is everything else underneath that. You can have the world-class resource, but it's it's getting the policy right, it's getting the consenting right. It's you know, it's and we'll go into some of that because it's not a unique thing in Ireland. Um and I and I have to say, I've been three years since I've been here. Yeah. I think I think it was at the UTC, was it? Oh, it's in the Dublin uh Dublin University campus. Yeah, I'm sure that was the the one that I was in, and I was on I was on the final day on on stage, and you know, the there seems to be so I've not been back since then, and it it it seems to be so much more everyone might think it's really hard and it is, but actually there has been pro progress, and we'll go into that in more detail. But yeah, I like that one. Also at pace or accelerate. Yeah. Because that's again a very easy thing to say that we need to do it at pace, and everyone goes, Yeah, you know, well, I started my consent back in you know two years ago or whatever. So, what what about yourself? Yeah, I mean, for me, it's the Saudi Arabia of wind. If I heard it once, and especially with Boris Johnson days, I mean we heard it every second minute, but like we have to ship, you know, we're we're beyond this. We need to move into delivery mode and the big opportunity, we need it's it's all about conversion now and competing then with a global scale. I think it's it's it's imperative we move away from these both words and talk about delivery and and seeing how we how we actually materialize this because you know we need to keep those investors on side, we need to deliver, we need to make sure that we've got the business cases, robust business cases that underpin this and and keep you know refining that policy and regulatory space, but equally improving and driving efficiencies into our um delivery side. That probably takes us into the first section of what we're gonna chat about. I mean, uh the you know that phrase was was created to try and sort of demonstrate uh the opportunity. Yeah. And you know, that goes without saying that there is an opportunity. I mean, it's it's why this has been happening, it's why the association's been around, it's why people have been involved in this market for for years and years and years, quite rightly. Um there is a parallel in the UK, even though the UK is far more mature because we've got you know targets and ambitions and things, but actually that doesn't get you any it's a nice signal. But at the end of it it doesn't get you anywhere. So we've got the the opportunity is really big, but we're entering this much harder phase, and that's what the last two days um has has been showing us. It's just you know that we're in this harder phase where there's some significant risks, but there is movement, you know. So the the transmission quest question, you know, well when the first contract signed with Air Grid, that would be fantastic, but there's movement and that happening. How uh you know, so we're going to this execution phase, and I think you mentioned delivery, which is that interchangeable word. But execution and delivery is also quite a simplistic phrase. Yeah. And it's used, and I I use it, right? I, you know, we're into sort of delivery and everything. What does that actually mean? Can you break that down? What does execution or delivery actually mean? I mean, look, it's getting into the detail and and really refining those, and I keep hammering the word business case, and that probably will be the next buzz words, it'll probably come out in another year. Um, but it's it's we need to get that right. We're no different any other sector. We need conversion, and and it comes down to making sure that we are we are fit for purpose when that investment um case comes around and making sure that you can get past your boards. Um you know, having, you know, it's all well and good to talk, um, talk a good talk around these, but if you can't deliver, you know, we've seen it in some of the major infrastructure projects here in Ireland. We've maybe gone ahead of the, you know, we've we've got them moving and not done the homework on some of the projects, and it's biting us in the derrier right now. You know, whether it's in budget or it's in timeline, we're we're seeing significant uh slippages. But like we have executed here. There is Irish around the world executing big international critical infrastructure projects. We just need to focus and make sure that we're doing that homework ahead of time, which we are here. You can see it, and making sure you bring in the right mindsets, the right experience, and bring, you know, the rest of the teams along, but keeping that discipline, I think, is so important. How do we balance that? Because I think it was it, Kevin with on Stephen's podcast yesterday, they were talking about, you know, to me, I see this almost this two rocks. Yeah, there's a really big one in front of us, which is phase one, and then there's sort of Tonu and beyond, and you can't ignore either. But depending on what's happening, there's there's prioritization. So, how how does um a market try and sort of balance this kind of that it you don't have this sort of uh machine that's that's just churning infrastructure out yet? You've got well you know, phase one projects sort of came about in a slightly different environment, slightly different way, and we you've looked, you know, the market's learnt lessons, and it seems to be that that you know from then there's going to be a much more sequenced sort of way of doing it. So, how do we keep those two things? Yeah, and it comes to the focus and the discipline again. But I mean, look, it's imperative we get uh phase one out. You know, that's the investor confidence, making sure that we get repeat investment back to keep that flow of capital coming through, but also keeping your supply chain, you need that visibility, a pipeline. It's going back to those basics, that confidence level that we as Ireland PLC can deliver that is absolutely crucial. So keeping that focus on those phase ones, I think at the minute, is is absolutely crucial. But let's not forget what's coming behind, because if you've got investment decisions around ports and you've got investment decisions within your supply chain, they need equally to make those investment decisions. So they need confidence that Ton Nua and Lee Bon are coming in in a timely fashion. We're taking the learnings, we're refining what we do. So we can't fully take, you know, full focus on phase one. It needs to be balanced. But I mean, it's crucial if if our phase ones go down, we know we don't need to worry about phase two. Is it a matter of them going down or being delayed where it erodes risk that much that things grind to a sort of a perpetual and loses because one of the things is that the benefit one of the benefits I see of the the market here is that you've got that so many of the players are very you know European international players, so they're quite serious. So if they invest you know in the market, there's a level of confidence on that. The downside to that is that they're portfolio players. So their project in Ireland is one of many, and as things change in the year or over the years, and all of a sudden you know cost of capital goes up, one of an a project elsewhere gets delayed because of serial defects or something in the turbine or or something else that happens, that has an impact on sort of cash flow, and then they start making portfolio decisions. So the up the you know, the the the upside is that the serious players who understand the patience needed and have the ability to manage those stakeholders and be serious about it. On the downside, Ireland needs to have continuous motion. Yeah, I feel. Yeah, you know, it's the you know we've got great momentum here, and I think it's up to us now. We need to make sure that we continue that through, and this is how the discipline is going to be crucial, punching through, but we are competing internationally, which is is key. But going back to a point you made there, just around capital and taking it up to a global um level. We are, you know, as an industry, we've matured quite a bit, and you're seeing some of that maturity now come into this emerging market in Ireland. But like, where do you see or where how how tough has it got in that maturing? So I saw I was I was rethinking about that this morning because I knew you were gonna ask ask ask that. So I you need to have, I think the market here needs to have one eye on it, but I think it's more on the development capital of of developers and things and the allocation and portfolios. Because when's gonna be FID of the first project? So who knows what the market's gonna be like in 2080 or 29. What there was a recent white paper uh by MUFG, and like all white papers, it's slightly self-serving. Um, but it was good, and um it was you know it made the case that you know the build-up, this this most rescaling um is gonna need about 15 billion euros for the UK per year and similar issues for for Europe. And what they were saying was actually debt's gonna be a lot more strained during that period because things like Basel IV, which I had to look up because I'm not a financial person, but basically what that is is that we need to de-risk our financial sector, which means you can't put all your cash on number 38 on the blackjack table. And what that means, it needs to be dispersed. So, I mean, so that stretches it out because it needs to be used in lots of different markets in different ways, different exposures. AI, lots of investment. So there's lots of sort of hunt for it. So the the there will be a stretch of the debt availability. So they were making a case of being a little bit more complex and stuff. And of course, if you've got a complex financing, you you go to M UFG or something like that. So it's slightly self-serving. But they were they were right. But it's not the problem. I don't think it's the problem. I don't think it's an issue with this market here today. It's it's the you won't get FID without the transmission without the AC, you know, the the the ACP, APC? Yeah, yeah. A C P. Um and that's really important. Now the big hurdle that's that needs to be managed as you get through that is the you know projects that are based on spreadsheets created in 22 and 23 for the for contracts that might be having to make procurement decisions in 28, 29? 28, 29, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um that's delta that delta is going to be challenging. Yeah. So I would say so. You won't even get the opportunity to look for debt. So I think that's so I think that is kind of making sure that you're still attractive for that development capital from the RWEs of the world, the ESPs, the the EDFs of the world, and also looking ahead and sort of saying, well, okay, how can we make this project financeable? Yeah. And also maybe what the government can do to support that, because it these are going to be constructed or procured in a totally different environment than when those spreadsheets were done. I mean, just look what you know Orsted and uh did Horn C4. Yeah. And it's it's funny because you are you are seeing the levers changing because the cost of capital has obviously gone up. But going on the panels this morning and looking at the integration of, as you alluded to, the AI and coming in and looking at driving efficiencies, it's there. But I suppose the corporate capital or the commercial model is changing with the introduction of CC corporate power purchase agreements. I'm getting slightly tongue-tied, but um, that's really, I suppose, going to be another level to bring into it to give confidence and to scale, probably. And I think it need it it it it will need to. Um the the the you know, the capital that we need to build these things are the most expensive types of capital you can the or you know, financing you need because it's all at risk, it's it's so heavily CapEx focused. But of course, as the project gets sort of completed and there's less the risk, you know, starts to go down because you're in commissioning and warranty, all of a sudden you can go after cheaper capital in different ways of doing it. So one of the things as well is that projects, you know, the that refinancing is going to be really, really important. Sell downs as we've seen with you know the the the Orsted model, which is really, really common, but also in looking at other ways of doing it. You need to go into your FID with a view of refinancing so you can make sure that the right sort of clauses are in, you know, loans and and and things like this. So it is important and and and you need to prep it, but I just think it's not today's problem. But then again, I'm not a finance person, so I mean my finances are awful. So I mean I can't. But maybe that's it. That's a good way of kind of going, we need more to involve more of these people just to kind of you know, we set we talk about the energy mix, but the finance and capital risk as we evolve and mature, I think is going to be quite an interesting one. But um, yeah, I'm I'm really keen to see how you know we can bring these industries together. And we leaned in quite a bit around the you know, matching the demand and the supply, I think, and you know how we do that from a grid perspective perspective is going to be quite interesting as well. So uh on on the the grid, we'll move into grid or any so well, let's get a question up. Yeah, have we got any questions? Let's get a question up. Let's because otherwise we'll just go on and someone will be going finishing five five minutes. We have a uh the popular most popular question at the moment might tie into your view on grid for uh Scotland and Ireland. So it's who will get to five gigawatts first, Scotwind or Ireland? Do you want to comment on the Scotland side? Yeah, because I'm not on the renewable UK board. Um so uh I I I it it could be Ireland. If you discount Berwick Bank, so if you look at Scotland and stuff, it it it it could be Ireland. Uh there's there's some challenges in Scotland, but however, I am a good Scot, I'm a loyal Scot, and I'll say that Scotland will, but I think it's bloody closer than I thought it was uh a while ago. Yeah, I think uh from a personal perspective, I'm living in Glasgow, but um I do think we're probably running for the bus a little faster in in Scotland. Um think there's a lot of work to do. I mean the grid and the the constraint on the grid and the build-out required is massive. But I I what I really what I really enjoy, and I suppose this is where the discipline and the leaning into the the problem in the UK around the grid is you're seeing a lot of obviously the price control um conversations, they've just got the transmission one over the line. The budgets are huge, absolutely huge. And then you're seeing the distribution side. And what I suppose the government made a really, really good maneuver in it didn't get everything right, and it'll never get everything right. But I think bringing NISA to the forefront, looking at Clean Power 2030 and having you know and you know, accountability in government or government departments to push those agendas and challenge them from a different perspective has been instrumental probably in the UK. By no means it's it's a difficult challenge to unlock the um the Scotland challenge around grid because we brought in 30 gigawatts basically of leasing at once, which wasn't ideal. Um, you know, you are going to see, and we have already seen a lot of attrition there. That is very natural. Uh it was very much, I think on the the early days when we we saw the auctions come out, you know, some of these were quite ambitious, but you are always going to see attrition here. It's part of life, it's part of development, and it's preparing yourselves for that. You know, if you look at any investment portfolio. Okay, I it's not that I say it was an on-goal. You won't find me sort of going, ah, that was a mistake. Because I always go, yes, and everything else. Hindsight, being 2020, it was a bit of an on-goal because I don't think uh it brought in a lot of diversity of developers, which was great. I thought that was fantastic. Um, you know, we work with a number of them, but the thing is that it's not good for a market to have lots of keys getting hand handed in and attrition. Um, but I think it's been compounded. You've got, you know, so you've got the fact that there's almost too much project, you've got a big exposure to floating. Yeah. Potentially now, in in reality, before the market was at a level of maturity as a whole, if you include technology, methods, bankability, you know, all of everything put together, you know, the ability to have the supply chain, anchor handlers, uh, you know, everything that's there. It was like too much. Too giddy. We talked about giddy before. Yeah, we have used that word giddy, yeah. So I I and then what most more recently, because obviously they're trying to get the smaller projects through, but some of those smaller projects they were only really becoming a little bit more sensible with, you know, and we'll come to it maybe maybe later, depending on the question, is the you know, Mingyang turbines, etc. Yeah. So there's been a bit of a rug pulled out. You've got the grid, you've got the economics, you've got Treasury who probably don't want to be have a strike price anywhere near that for any length of time. So I hence uh and we've seen you know what was a well-developed project like um West of Orkney get sort of stuck. It's shamefully stuck. It's you know, so I there is I I just see a little bit more traction, yeah. An organized traction in Ireland than I do in Scotland at the moment. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, West of Orkney, it just kills me watching because I've seen those teams working from the early doors, even pre, you know, the Scotland. We were on it for about 18 months to two years before. It's heartbreaking for that team, absolutely heartbreaking. I hope it comes good. I mean, but like when you're looking at transmission charges go threefold and it hasn't stopped yet. We need something instrumental to change, and uh and I'm hoping it's going to come over the summer. You know, we're going to see some new mechanisms come in, but it's got to get it right. I still see some dreaming going on. There was I I did a thing, uh, what was it that I did? It was um uh it was it was it was a newsletter thing, and um I I I I used a phrase which wasn't the nicest phrase that there's gonna be projects that are gonna be taken out behind the barn. Yeah. Uh uh, and I got pulled up on that by saying, well, no, they shouldn't be. There's there's other uses of these projects. There's clean fuel, you know, clean fuels and things like this. Yeah, absolutely. But no developer's gonna develop it based on clean fuels and hydrogen at this stage because there's not a market for it, there's not an infrastructure for it. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, yeah, but I'm saying that uh a developer that project will have handed the keys in three or four times before there's there's an infrastructure that's gonna need clean energy to fuel, you know, to produce. Clean jet fuel to do this. It's needed and there's a massive opportunity, and there should be stakeholders looking at it, but that's not going to really suit developers that currently have keys. And I think with Ireland, what I like about is the we've we've started talking about matching the demand with the supply and looking at things like green energy parks. And maybe we're, you know, we've we've we we're trying to find solutions around that. It's we're still we we may not get it right uh on a on a number of the first goes, but I think at least we've made some inroads there, looking at how we can match that, seeing how we bring we can distribute that opportunity as well from an economic, social and economic perspective into the communities to get that buy-in. I think that's going to be key because to be honest, like you we're seeing such pushback. And I suppose with what's happening in the Middle East, we're having that conversation now in the pub. Um, you know, we are getting challenged now on a regular basis, going, why is the cost of energy so high? Why are we doing this? You're driving the latest one I've had is well, offshore when's driving up the cost of um of for the consumer. You know, it's your fault. And I'm like, we need to make sure that we are communicating right, we're getting the messaging, how because there's there's parties like reform who are quite instrumental in getting negative messaging out, and we need to make sure, again, cut back into the evidence, cut back into um into um the business case. Simple as that. Batted out of the park. Yeah, I mean, we won't spend any time on this today because we've chatted about it. And is that the problem is for the the person in the street, our business cases and our discussions on CFDs and else it just, you know, it's it's it's they they just so for those who are exposed to the UK stuff, you've got uh Ed Ed Miliban seems to be the pet hate of the mainstream press. So you've got you know, so that the mainstream press that's that tends to drive towards sort of you know net zero as a as a hate thing, and everything that's bad in the UK is down to the costs of net zero. It's they use simple phrases that cut through we've got you know take back control for the you know that still has the hairs on my neck, go like this, like this, what what that what that caused. Simple comms that needs explaining to defeat them, and by then everyone's moved moved on. So somehow for for general comms, now what we discussed at at Renewable UK, and and what I've heard from here is that you know the best comms for that kind of benefit is people in the supply chain. It's the driver, it's the forklift driver, it's the technician. Because actually the best thing for for people in the street is that oh, it's also jobs, yeah. And it also does reduce their cost because the you know in the UK anyway, the you know, the price of you just see it read on uh this morning that there's gonna be the average bill player is gonna have to, the cap's gonna go up by about £225 or something, and that's due to our exposure of gas. Yeah. And more offshore wind, balanced and you know, put into the system. If you reduce the amount of gas that's that's being burnt, it means that you're reducing the exposure to the gas as part of your electricity price. So that's the way to do it. So yeah, it's um I suppose they're looking at decoupling in the UK in particular, and I suppose we would encourage without totally reforming, which I think is right, because that will take it. You need that investor confidence as well. Like, but going on the supply chain, and I suppose you know, where I've seen a lot of inroads in particular in the UK market, but you're seeing it wider in Europe and further afield as well, is making sure that we can get that messaging over the socioeconomic um opportunity. We've seen it across the north of Scotland. Certainly, um, we had an Irish uh government delegation in Aberdeen last October, and we were really lucky to get up and see the progress on, say, some of the investment decisions around the likes of manufacturing. We we visited um Ardazeer port, which is like being on the moon, it's so big. They're looking at you know setting that up for um offshore wind, but I suppose the the view down the line is floating and looking at a manufacturing base there. Unfortunately, they had a recent decision around the the Menyang turbines, but that's yet to be debated. Um, but then you look over to Sumitomo and the cables uh uh opportunity, and we've got such a big lead in getting that confidence, getting people excited about those investment decisions, but bringing it back to the policy, the commercial um underpinning and discipline. You can't make those decisions on investment cases for the likes of a cable factory or for a port unless you've got visibility of pipeline and breaking it down so and then coming back to the customer. You know, we've got we've got people are at their wits' end, backs are up against the wall. So we need to make sure, whether it's the supply chain investment that we get the component prices out or it's the cost of electricity, we need to make absolutely mindful that the customer's price and what they're being asked to pay is central to our thought process and and making sure that we're helping that cause a little bit. Yeah. Um so yes. Yeah, but I've just got this thing disagreeing, maybe well no, I've just got the well, I've just got this thing that so we we're hearing this thing about security and sovereignty, right? If you want the cheapest offshore wind farm, where's it gonna come from? Yeah, cheap, right? Cheap and debate. Open to the market. If it's open to the market and stuff like that, if it's so the UK was you know, thanks to Maggie and everything else, we've had a uh uh thanks to Maggie, don't take that. Um we we've got this market, right? So we sold everything, we we, you know, and and and there was major successes. Japan came in with Nissan and Sunderland, massive success. But it basically meant that, you know, uh Thames Water, go off. Yeah, and nothing gets rebuilt because they're only interested in in leveraging the assets and stuff. So it went off. And that actually, to be honest, to a degree, that also fed into the success of offshore wind in phase, let's call it 1.0 in the UK. Because it was basically we'll put some structures in place, we'll do everything, and then it cut it comes in. But now that's not what we want because the politics in the UK is but everything's coming in from abroad, so we want to have quite rightly. And I see offshore wind is a major industrial um potential to try and re-industrialise some areas that has been neglected or totally just ignored since the the 80s. Um but also energy sovereignty and you know, security and now it's moved into structurally, none of that's cheap. Nope. Right? It comes with a cost. Now, the should the billpayers of the energy that might not care where it comes from when I put my kettle on pay that? Or actually, is that a national a cost of a country deciding like a defence, like defence in the UK, the defence budget is paid by everyone and everything else is socialised. Should the element that says I am going to subsidise or I'm gonna pay a certain amount to have a higher socioeconomic benefit, and I'm going to, you know, say, no, no, we're gonna we're gonna stay with two two two turbines market, which will be fundamentally more expensive than a three supply, it just is, but it's fine. But it will be a European piece of kit. Um, that's gonna be more expensive. That decision is a socialized decision and not maybe a built. And this is what I mean with that is that actually uh why should someone on very low wages and stuff have to pay that when that's a strategic decision and strategic is expensive. Fair point, yeah. And I mean, again, I suppose this is where we need to put in more work and evolve that and socialise it. It's going to be different in each market. I suppose what we're trying to get to, it needs to be all part of a mix. We don't need as offshore wind, we don't really need to be the same as as onshore wind in pricing, it's part of that mix, so we can balance that. But you know, if you look at say other technologies like nuclear, they take longer to to build and obviously come at a higher cost, but it's how you bring that mix and stability in. Um, I might go back and see if the audience have any other questions before we hit the we hit the poll, maybe. Um anything coming to mind? Yeah, if you want to put up the questions, one um that might link in is a question from Matt. Um cost to consumer. He says, Do you think that the UK can learn from how Ireland is looking at end users, data centres, and offshore wind generation? I can take that one as a lot of things. I was gonna say, because now are they different differently? Yeah, I suppose we've got a large energy user policy here, and um I look going back to my part there around the the um the green energy parks and matching that demand and and supply and looking at focused, I suppose, establishment of that in the future and and rolling out that maybe and matching them. We're talking about putting some of these green energy parks in coastal locations, so you in essence tap in, you get a point-to-going point connection, or look at it then in connecting up with some of the interconnection uh side as well to capitalise on on excess power. We're seeing, I suppose there are parallels as well with the UK because, as I said, there NISO has stepped in and they're very much doing that modelling around um uh demand and supply. It's not perfect, it'll never be, but understanding they're really integrating it, and you've seen things like the um home heating um uh bill come out, looking at, you know, they're trying to anticipate what the uptake in the areas like heat pumps, they're looking at where manufacturing will come in. Will it tap in on where will it will it need to be more emphasis on the transmission side or will it be more emphasis on the um uh the distribution side? And you're seeing quite a step up in the distribution now in the UK. Ireland's a smaller market, so I think getting that infrastructure infrastructure out and actually reinforcing the grid, getting the stability is going to be key. There's a lot of um technicality and obviously managing the grid from a system perspective when you bring renewables on the system. And we've seen obviously what's happened in Spain, and Spain and Portugal took the brunt of it. That that is something we really need to manage. We have been flashing our amber here on quite a number of um occasions over the last few years, and I suppose Storm Owen brought in uh the added elements around, you know, operations and maintenance. We need to make sure we get the basics right, you know, making sure that we have we are doing adequate um operations and maintenance around, even if it's just clearing trees, making sure that when we do get hit by the storms and we will be continuously hit probably with stronger um storms going forward and more frequency, we need to make sure that we're ready for that. You know, it's getting the basics right and holding holding that front, I think, is going to be so important. So, do you think we've got some lessons to learn in that in the UK? Yeah, I think there's Is it transferable? Yeah, I think there's a lot of uh transferable um lessons there. I think that relationship with the UK is going to be essential going forward, you know, whether it's from a supply chain perspective, an interconnection perspective, or just having that friend to bounce off something and kind of go, are we mad doing XYZ? What worked for you? Those little tweaks and looking at what we do here, we've got our strengths as well. We might be small in comparison to the UK, but we have got you know attributes that far, you know, are far more advanced in you know in areas like digital, looking at how we've we shouldn't. I I I keep on bringing it back. I left Ireland in 2009. Um, we were on our knees when the when the Celtic Tiger was genuflecting. We should not be where we are right now. We should not. And it's a case of well, how did we get out of that hole? How did we manage to do it? We somehow did it through FDI, and I think you know, balancing that and and looking at where we have strengthened that and working with the UK, but that collective around getting the pipeline and making sure that we can give confidence to supply chain, I think is going to be key. Having more sequencing between the two markets, I think would be really interesting. I mean, how possible that is, I don't know. I think that would be a real because that came up in France. So I was at Senegal last week, and there was a uh we were I I can't remember the format, but we're there was a discussion around being able to, you know, that if if the markets in Europe could and it was for the the benefit was mainly for the value chain behind that because you've got grid connections, you've got you've got the supply chain, you know, but all of a sudden it gives them clarity. If you can sequence auctions and things like this at that level, you'd fill all these gaps. Absolutely. Which is not going to be easy, but it was an interesting concept. Yeah. I mean, uh look, I'm kind of taking we've had a tough sector over the last few years, but actually, maybe it's good medicine as well, because at the point we were going and the the ramp-up rate and the ambition, 2030 was going to be one hell of a miserable year because we were literally banking everyone in, and then there was going to be a cliff edge, and then we'd ramp up again. But it's smoothing that pipeline to make sure you have liquidity across your capital industry, but equally into your supply chain and stability across markets, particularly for Europe. We're all singing from the same hymn sheet here. We're all going to pull the colour. Yeah. We're all pulling from the same supply chain. What question do you fancy? Well, I'm going to bring up one for you, John. Um we've got the poll around this. Do you think there's a role for non-European suppliers in offshore wind today? I mean, it's the it's the top. Do you want a short do you want a short answer? Have you got the poll, just so we see the audience? Let's colour it with the poll. So yes, but diversify over time, 62%. Okay. Okay, so it actually includes my short answer, but with a really good caveat. Go for it. Well, it was yes. But I'll really like the caveat. And actually, you can combine that. To be honest, I think that's a really, really pragmatic and healthy view. Because actually, you squish them both together. It's yes, but diversify over time. And but that means that it's got you know, it it ideally it goes down, and it the the immediacy is driven by speed and delivery matters most, so which is just now, so we can't really sort of wait maybe for production slots to increase with and we're feeling that in in the UK with floating, especially. So, yes, I I do think we you can't ignore Chinese leading cleantech. No. Um it it's it will hinder that what we shouldn't be is become reliant in the same way we are with hydrocarbons and with the Middle East and fossil fuels. Uh you know, we can't repeat the same mistake. Yeah. But what we can do is manage it. They are a trading partner. We've got different sort of ways of sort of you know managing our countries and things, and that I need to have grown-up discussions between between governments and things, but they're a trading partner, you can't pretend they're not there. Yeah. And um, so to me it's a risk-based approach. So we would so very briefly, it's like you know, the the the security, the risk of a plate of steel or a can in a monopile or a finished monopile is totally different from a full turbine and totally different from maybe a full HVDC type thing. Different risks. So you've got different hierarchy of risks. The bottom one isn't a security risk, but it might be an economic risk. So it might damage a steel industry in in Austria or or Germany. So basically, all of these needs to have an okay but, okay, we will do this, all the way up. And maybe there's a no somewhere where that's just not not willing to do it. But even the more complex one, like for from my opinion, with with Ming Yang, let's let's focus on that. Um all the security issues were technically solvable. It was a geopolitical decision. Yeah. Um whether that's right or or or wrong, it's not for me to decide. But but basically there was there's ways of managing that. There was an issue you uh maybe the the audience doesn't know, but there was an issue with a with Chinese ownership of British steel, where the because it was major losses, they were looking to uh close down the um the smelters, I think it was the smelters, and that would have killed it because just the cost of starting up again. And so we had to sort of almost go in and take it over and stuff. So there is so in other words, so so that means that you need to have not 100% owned, you need to have board places. So, yes, build something, but basically it has to be maybe 49.5% owned by various actors and stuff like that. So there's there's ways of there's governance ladders and policy stuff. The problem is that is nuanced, and we're in a world where polit geopolitics isn't nuanced, and it's dictated by how a certain someone might feel at two o'clock in the morning on Truth Social. Yeah, my favourite man. And uh so it's so we have these sort of decisions. So yes, but diversify over time, and the other one, I think that's the right answer. I like it. I suppose this is where we we've come up against this before in the in the nuclear sector, because we have seen that, you know, in particular, uh and we're dwelling a little bit on the the the Chinese, but like we have seen, and we're still using Chinese technology in the nuclear side, but um, you know, we have lessons there, I think, you know, that we have a little bit of experience in that side on a European. Or the UK with how we do it. Come in and then don't come in. Yeah, yeah. A little bit of flip-flopping. But um, can we get the questions up again and we have another we look? Yeah, let's let's let's not do nuclear today. We'll do nuclear on a future podcast. Yeah, yeah. Shall we do small medium reactors at one point? We can, yeah, yeah. For a laugh. Go on. No, just for a laugh. Oh yeah. I don't know if I'll be laughing. Uh so I think there was one there around industrial strategy, um, if I remember right. It's something that we talk about a lot in the UK. Um, it's certainly we we talked about it this morning. Um, there was going to be a green growth strategy, and and Enterprise Ireland is leaning into that one or DETI. Um, where is it gone? I can't see it there now. But oh, yeah, it is. How do you think um the UK-Scottish Government industrial strategy and financial support for the industry compare to our compare with Ireland? Um, do you want to maybe start on that one? Yeah, so uh the I won't make the direct comparison because I don't run off, but I'll frame the Scottish one. I think we are so much in a better position than we were 10 years ago, for instance. We've got policy-led um investment vehicles like the National Infrastructure Fund, uh GB Energy, SNIB in Scotland. And I'll be honest with you, um, what has happened, what Labour's done since they've came in, it might look like a whole bunch of disjointed things, like the you know, the the um the Crown Estate Act to allow them to you know utilise their financial heft a bit more if it's there, the you know, the GB Energy NISO that you mentioned that. I mean, even though it's you know, we haven't we're not seeing the massive results from that yet because it's it's they've only been in for, I mean, it seems like 10 years, but they've only been in for about 24 months. So I think there's a lot has been done in the UK um uh over the last X number of years, and I think we're in a lot better position. Do we have an industrial strategy? Uh we've got an industrial appetite and we're not funding it enough. I mean, all the things that I've mentioned is still the least you could do. Yeah. Right? But based on the fact we used to do sod all that's not bad. Yeah, I think. So I we have, I think, came a long way. We've got a lot more policy levers, um, we've got a lot more reforms going on, yeah. We've got a bit more sequencing, there's a bit more urgency. Absolutely. I particularly liked, I suppose, the industrial, you know, the the industrial growth strategy that came out in offshore wind. Um, and the and the governments obviously have their own um industrial strategy for UK PLC, but the you know, make, buy, and the leave and got playing to the strengths in the UK where we can make a difference, leaving where we just can't compete, or you know, being realistic. Being realistic, but then focusing your capital because we can't, you know, we don't want to sprinkle capital across the markets because it's just not going to land where we need it to drive oomph into the market. So focusing in on that, but I quite like the way they've they frame that. There's a nice analogy that you use in marketing, which is exactly like that there. It's basically if you've got a bit of toast and you've got a knife with a bit of jam on it, yeah. Do you spread it all over or do you put it on a corner? Oh, I'd probably spread it all over. Which is brand. I'd put it on a corner and get a nice big tasty bite rather than something. And that's and that's exactly the same. That's what you've just described there. You've got we've got this pot. Where can we use it for most leverage? Because policy and strategy is all about where you spend your cash. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not about finding more. Absolutely. And you're seeing, I suppose, uh the guys in OW and Guys and Girls and in OWGP, the offshore wind growth partnership, they're managing that industrial uh growth fund. They've got a hell of a lot of money, and you know, they'd grant applications out anything from I think it was 300,000 up to 25 million. You know, it's it's big, but again, you need confidence, and particularly it's challenging around things like floating, having that business case because you're putting taxpayers' money in the back. So making sure you have that and they can deliver that value to the case. It's incredibly useful. Um and it it's incredibly useful. I I I still think there's a uh sourcing gap in the whole in the in the whole piece. Yes. It's still the minimal. But we are, but that sounds like I'm being quite sort of uh sort of picky about it because we are we are in a better place by millions. And I think look, the next from initial conversations I've had around the Irish side and looking at that next step change, you know, the evolution of powering prosperity, which is our equivalent of early um industrial growth plan, because we didn't have visibility on the long term, now that DMAPs are coming in, there is an ability to drive an industrial strategy a little bit more. So that initial one was for, I suppose it was constrained by it was time limited. And there's only so much you can do because you you didn't have that visibility of pipeline. And I understand that you know we will we will push more into that, maybe make buy or leave analogy. It'll be framed in a different way. Obviously, it's quite different here in Ireland, but it'll be interesting to see what comes out on it. So I'm I'm looking forward to seeing how that evolves. Do you think it's just game? Uh do you think it's easier to do an industrial, to create an industrial strategy that can, you know, that makes sense, whether it's delivered or not, in Ireland versus the UK? Probably Ireland is probably a little bit easier purely because we don't have the the volume and the complexity of some of the industries. And the regional issues and the regional disparity because we've got a horrible regional disparity between the financial centre, which is London, and the regions that get, you know, the oxygen gets sucked out back to London. It does, but I suppose you have that, you know, you've you've regional agencies here which you know are always fighting for their corner, you know, and it's hard to get no no offense to anyone in Dublin, but it's hard to get money out of Dublin, and you need to get that into the communities. You need that to get into the into the So that's a thing that's been a thing in Ireland as well. Because I mean I always viewed that that's the same in London, because the treasury is like that. Well we have our we have our own um we have our own battles, you know, just to make sure the cash is evenly distributed. Okay. Even from a grid perspective, making sure that we get grid reinforcement into the west of Ireland up into Donegal. And and obviously we're seeing a lot of reinforcement, obviously concentrating towards the D map in the south. But um we need to get a little bit more even distribution on that investment, you know, to encourage people and keep people in those communities, and actually leading into the communities. Um John, maybe you have had some experience here on the can how do we sorry, what can be done to encourage local communities to support offshore wind projects? What approach was taken in Scotland? Well, okay, so I I don't work in stakeholder management, but I was uh I had a uh some time with two uh industrial colleagues who do that with offshore wind projects in with Scotland offshore wind projects, and it was enlightening. So a huge amount of work gets done, and I'm sure similar here, a huge amount of work gets done to engage with it. And the the issue what I what I found, so I'll just is that the people who are more active, likely to go to a local hall in Scotland, yeah, will be slightly older, um, slightly more conservative with a small c. And the you know, if you can boil the politics of it down to the project, the conversation are more effective, the heat's getting taken out. What we find, especially with projects in the northeast of Scotland, is that it gets is that it's almost a release valve for other issues. Yeah. So, and that's the complicating matter. It's not the project, it's the fact that they might be in this in places around Aberdeen and they're just getting fed this thing that offshore wind is killing oil and gas because it's net zero, and we're not, you know, that if if we need to sort of drill more and look at Norway, we're buying their gas, you know, incredibly simplistic things, it doesn't really be bear out, which we won't uh do it do it here. But that kind of um sort of feeding in and then it it gets ejected into these sort of things, which just doesn't does not help. Um and um so and actually some of the you know I I wouldn't do that job for starters. Um it's absolutely horrid. So I think the you know it's good practice, continuous uh engagement. They need to understand what's in it for them. Yeah. I mean, you know, if if all this is is that we're just going to disrupt your your your roads, we're gonna we're gonna be putting cables through here, it's gonna be absolutely hell. I mean, why why why should that? They need to understand. So there needs to be what's in it for them, whether that's investment, whether that's impacted on their bills, you know, there's some wave mechanism on on their bills. Um, and I think we need to try and take the somehow the national this sort of net zero kind of thing. And it won't be in every all communities, but in communities that are highly affected by that message that they're getting. Yeah. So it was it was really eye-opening, and it's not something I would want to do. The actual details of it has been progressing in Scotland, it's but it's it's hard work for some projects. And James talked about the the community benefit funds that developers have this morning, and I think making sure that we drive impact in the use of those, you know, it's not just a football pitch down the road, and it's not just you know a small piece of it. We need to hold communities in the area. We need the And it's finding the people that don't turn up to the town hall and motivated. So one of the big things that that was one of the things was was actually, you know, you can just try and get through this with the people who turn up at the town hall. I agree. You need to find the the quieter people that that do agree or could well agree, or is open for a uh because sometimes you can't you can't change someone's mind. Yeah. So it's been able to reach the people that don't turn up at the town hall. It's funny, there's Renew B UK had been running a survey in the UK trying to get the the uh uh community or with stakeholder buy-in and understanding the reasoning and different ways they shift the the narrative around how they ask the question. And it's it's I need to look at it more uh detail now. I haven't I haven't looked at it heavily, but it there was a couple of kind of areas which popped out on they bought into it if it was just phrased and explained to them a little bit more as a as rather than coming across a little bit more aggressive on well, we're coming in doing XYZ. I always think of I remember getting thrown into um they were literally thrown into uh a school in actually in your neck of the woods in Fife, and um it was up in methyl. And you would have had a concentration of oil and gas um expertise there. They were all a lot of a lot of their parents would have been working with a BIFAB, which would have been jackets going into the oil and gas top sides. And there was a young fella, I had three classes that day I had to present and get them all G'd up and try and get them into some career in offshore wind. And there was a young fellow up, he was giving me awful grief, and uh he was just a little bit of a mm, and uh I was like, Listen, mate, do you want to be here or not? And he was like, Look, I'm not really bothered, I want to go home and do my computer games. And I was like, Well, actually, you like computer games? I'm absolutely crap at doing that. Well, how do you feel about going into a vessel and working a remotely operated vehicle? You'd be brilliant at that because like you have that hand-to-eye coordination with the controls. And he was like, What's that? And I was like, So what'd your parents do? And his dad worked in offshore way, or sorry, in oil and gas. And I was really surprised that that that hadn't been translated down because that's certainly it's a massive role in in the oil and gas sector. And increasing in the you know, the the having not being in the room but being able to actually work virtually and everything else has been increasing for years in both sectors. Absolutely. And it just was drawing that parallel to the communities. And I think pointing. It takes a dialogue, it's a it takes a conversation, it takes a bit of effort. Certainly wasn't somewhere I was going. I was expecting you to say that it was a retired oil and gas engineer because they're the worst. But I actually learnt everything I know in offshore wind from the oil and gas industry. I know, I know, it's just that when they get retired. I got booted out of enough oil and gas boards for pinching their staff as well. But I mean, different conversation. But I learnt everything, you know, sitting amongst um some of my colleagues in my former life in Atkins, you know, there's one or two key individuals which would have been instrumental in getting that knowledge and just absorbing it. I mean, don't get me wrong, I was called the Windy Miller, I was called the Maverick, I was called everything under the sun. I literally met CEO who booted me out of a board meeting recently, and he was like, God, I remember that day. The red flag is when someone calls them turbines. I also nearly got myself booted out of a company because of that. Um, but it was that just doesn't go. It's they're not windmills, they're turbines. Um but it's it's the narrative, it's making sure that we you know appreciate the knowledge and expertise that's there, but also, yes, the oil and gas side, but also the teams that we brought together in the early days. There was info on my background, infrastructure, worked on roads and bridges, and that's where I'm going back to that discipline: bringing in that delivery, bringing in that meticulism around no, we're develop delivering to time, you're delivering to budget, and it's in a certain quality level and making sure we get it right first. Yeah, and we work together in that. But also, we brought in a lot from the nuclear side, you know, that safety case, particularly around that, we need to translate that and find some common ground between, you know, a kind of a safety case uh approach gold-plated for the oil and gas side, because it had to take you that explosive risk, but you're moving it and translating it then for an unmanned structure and making sure that we, you know, marinated that across for an appropriate. And I think that so and a slight diversion on that, but really relevant to that because one it's dialogue, and two, it's with people or communities that are from that that particular sector. We mentioned, you know, we talked about how the the the a perception that that certain politicians and and and parties will feed into that, that it's their fault, it's net zero, and it's offshore one's fault. Actually, we you know, you just expressed all those skill sets and all those talents, and there's businesses in the northeast of Scotland. And this is where the debate becomes quite uh complex in in the UK because you know it's not a you know, you don't just switch it on. The oil doesn't have a refinery and hasn't had a real refinery capability, so the oil we get we can't really use, and the gas is incredibly minimal, um, and um uh there's no guarantee it'll be used for us anyway. So it's like it won't really solve things, but there's businesses and there's people's, and we need to manage that that decline in a way that we're managing the increase. And I do think we need to do that better in the UK because one of the things I don't want being from Fife, you mentioned I'm from Fife, is in so there's the farming richer, more sort of you know, uh bit at the top of Fife, St Andrews, lovely. The king and then the bit that I'm from, which is more down, the methylly sort of areas, is coal mining, yeah. And they were like many communities around the UK, they were left when that industry was just uh sort of decimated and killed. And I don't want to see another coal uh and you know, more communities like that done. And that's why it is important to have these discussions. Yeah, I think we need to have more of them, we need to have better messaging uh and engagement. Um just for a justice point of view. Absolutely, and it's it's that's why it's so annoying and uh it's it's disheartening to see you know the the likes of uh the political parties driving division between the likes of offshore wind and and um and oil and gas, particularly in that you know, east coast side, because you know, we've got that pedigree, let's use it, but equally, well, why are we having a culture war around this? Let's take the heat out of that disbase. I I I don't know if we can. I mean it's really annoying that the Conservative Party has uh, you know, what on paper could be an excellent young Prime Minister, yeah, diverse, f female, and an engineer. Yeah. And she harps on absolute rubbish about it. It's disappointing. It's disheartening. Yeah, it is disheartening. But I think, look, we saw what came out in some of the council elections. We're very lucky here in the in Ireland that we don't have that, you know, influence, heavy influence from the far right. But what we need to do here is I do think we need to just cut through the crap, and laterally, we need to cross the aisle in politics, particularly in the in Westminster, and work together because we will have that, you know, we'll have the next Brexit basically. And so, how do we make sure we we we get that? It's all up to us, I think. I'm just just looking at the time as well, and I think your phrase cut through the crap is a nice way to end. Yeah, never does. So um, listen, thank you very much for uh joining us today in Dublin. Really, really um great questions. Happy to take. I know we didn't cover everything here today, but um, we're going to sign off in the in the usual uh revolting podcast. Thank you to Wind Energy Ireland for having us here and yourselves coming in. I know it's a really hot room here today, so really appreciate it for everyone sticking with us. Um, I'm Una Brosnan. I'm John McCaskill, and keep the rotors turning and the heads banging. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you.