Episode 2 : Denise's Story

• No Edits: Women, Life and the Truth In Between
• Hosted by Rebecca Hartmann, a survivor, advocate, and storyteller, No Edits shines a light on the resilience of women who have walked through life’s hardest moments—domestic violence, loss, rebuilding, and the quiet battles that often go unseen.
• In this episode:  Unedited, raw and real listen to Denise's story as she walks through and shares her personal journey through domestic violence in an intimate relationships.  
• Subscribe to the No Edits podcast, follow us on Instagram and Facebook, stay tuned as more women share their stories of resilience and hope. 
• New episodes released bi-weekly.  
• https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61576247714854
• https://www.instagram.com/noedits.pod/

Transcript

episode-2-denise-s-story.mp3

2025-10-17 21:32:36

Saved

Okay, so we are in no edit, so we don't even have to worry about not going to edit this out either. So welcome back to no edits, women, life, and the truth in between. This is episode two. There will be no video for this episode to rename to excuse me retain anonymity, and if you have experienced instances of abuse, I keep looking up like we got a camera in the room. If you've experienced instances of abuse or have any knowledge of any sort of abuse, this could be a little bit triggering for you. And if you or someone you know is experiencing abuse, please call the National Center for Domestic Violence at 800-799-SAFE, and we'll repeat. that at the end of the episode. So, I have my friend Denise here today.

Thank you so much for coming. Yes, thanks for having me. And I'm so excited to get into your story because we met a while back and we've become fast friends and just have so much in common. And it's crazy how when you connect with someone, you just never know, like, all the levels that you connect. And it's crazy because we were like going to I think it was going to Pilates class. Yeah, and afterwards somehow it came up, the you know, this whole thing about my podcast and my passion for advocacy. Yeah, advocating for, you know, domestic violence victims. And you started to share. with me that you know, Hey, you've got a story too, which is so often.

What I tell people is, you know, when we look at one in three women who will suffer domestic violence in their lifetime, we're not picking out, you know, certain demographics or certain cultures or races. It's just everyone. And so, you know, you're a very successful woman, very beautiful, of it together. I was like, and you know, it just goes goes to show you that it's, it's just everyone. It's not anyone. No one's immune, right? Yeah, I'm always surprised how many people I meet that, you know, after having a little conversation, you find out, wow, they've kind of been. through something similar as well. Yeah, yeah, it's really, it's really sad, truthfully, you know, when I meet people and I'm like, wow, how did, how did this happen?

So, so I really want to get into today kind of like, as we were talking through, like, so, you know, we were talking about your experience with domestic violence, which happened in your marriage, where you had three children. Three children. Yeah, and so how old were you when you got into that relationship? I think I was 24. 24. Mm hmm. And so you did tell me that, and you had been, you had had a relationship before and then kind of went away from each other. Was there anything when you guys dated? before you married, that was like an indicator of anything that could have happened. No, you know, and I think we were so young at that time that I wouldn't have noticed those kids, teenagers.

Yeah, yeah, I mean originally teenagers, so I don't know that I would have noticed. You know, now way down the road, which I'm sure we'll get to going to therapy, I realized that there were just nothing that, yeah, so I've talked about this a little bit with my story because there were things when when we were dating, and you know, and I'm gonna talk specifically when I talk about my experience, I'm talking about the domestic violence situation that happened with my oldest three children's father, and when we were dating, I mean, we were older, you know, we were adults. And there's things now, like you said, through therapy I look at, and I'm like, you know, now I can see, like, oh my gosh, those reactions and just some of the things that were really signs, but I think I was so just— we block them out.

We just think, oh, this is normal, or you know, it's just, you know, it's— or you're in love. Exactly. Love is blinding. They're not like this all the time, so it's okay. Yeah, you know, that's why therapy down the road is so wonderful, because it really helps you see what's happened. So, like, in hindsight now, just you know again the purpose is we want to if there's one person that listens to this and and I know we talked about this and we both feel the same like if there's one person that listens to this and has helped or sees a sign or has a loved one that they see something then you know that is the whole point I'm curious like if you can tell me in kind of like a very just a neutral way what do you look at now after going through therapy that even when you were kids that you saw in in him that that was a sign or could have been a sign Sure absolutely

you know there was one big one that I missed which was the really pushing me to quit my job and stay home You know and down the road I saw why it was wanting to control everything, sure. But when you were teenagers and looking back at that, like in that teen dating, even at that early age, was there anything there that, I mean what you said, there might be something there that you had noticed, even just a lack of emotional control or anything that you saw that might have? You know, I think it was just maybe a little bit. I knew then that he was very much about everything being clean, because if everything looked good when you came to the house, everyone would think things were normal, and I I had known that that was what he thought and why he was such a clean Freak, but it didn't register to me that that could potentially be a sign of a larger issue.

Interesting, because I know that that was the case in my situation as well. Like, I mean, I was responsible for cleaning the house. I mean, and Golly, everything had to be just so absolutely. I mean, if two toys were out, it was just name calling and yelling, and I can't tell you how many times I was called a lazy piece of repeatedly. I mean, that still sticks in my head to this day. And I've been out of it for a while now, over a decade, and I still struggle with that word lazy. And I yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I get that. Mine was stupid. I was called stupid all the time. And I get that like you still when I make mistakes today, 18 years later, yeah, I still will.

One of the things that pops in my head is, you know, well, that's because you're stupid. Yeah, yeah. You know that's because you're worthless. Exactly. Yeah, that's for me. I mean, lazy and worthless are the things, you know, and I also got a lot that, you know, I'm not funny. I annoy everybody. You know, it was a lot of, when we were in public, like very doting. Everyone thought we were a great couple. But the second we got in private, it was, you know, you embarrassed me. No one likes you. I mean just anything and anything you could imagine. Anything to beat you down. Yeah, I can totally relate. So take me back though; if we walk back through, like, so you're 24, 25, you get married.

How long was it like after you married? Like, I assume you moved in together right away, obviously like most normal married couples do. We actually lived together prior to. Okay. So when you were living together, did you see anything that you... that? Well, you know, we got pregnant so fast that, and you know, we ended up, that's why we got married. But it, so I was often this world of, oh, I'm having a baby. Everything's great. You know, so I didn't really notice as much, you know, because I was just happy about the baby. So everything else I wasn't really paying attention to. And I think that's probably why we lasted so long, is because then, you know, thinking, well this is just normal. This is just the way families are.

But I can relate to that because we lived together before too. He was nine years older than me. And so we did live together before. And so by the time we had gotten together, we knew we're going to get married. And I was crazy in love. And we started, I mean, we were planning a wedding. But as we're planning the wedding, we're also trying to have a... Right? Yeah. So we were trying to get pregnant. And I did. And so I can relate because even after, even though there were some horrible things going on you know you're pregnant you're like oh I'm just your whole focus is on you know this great new adventure that you're having. Yeah. So did he was he abusive at all during your pregnancy?

Not physically just verbal, just verbal I say chest and I don't mean to diminish. No, no, no. Yeah. No I mean even I remember you know he had a bachelor party. And you know I was at home because I'm eight months pregnant. Yeah. And our basement's flooding. So I'm trying to get down and it's not a thing that hadn't happened prior in the home. But so I'm trying to get out the shop vac and get everything fixed. And I can't get Ahold of him at all. You know, because he's whatever. And the next morning, when he finally comes home, you know, kind of getting on me because our basement flooded when I spent the whole night with shop vac cleaning everything up. And it's just like eight months pregnant. Yeah.

Trying to deflect from the fact that like I couldn't get ahold of him and I was stuck to do all by myself. So, you know, I in hindsight I see a lot of that like deflecting things and turning around and blaming it on me. Yeah. And then making me feel bad. So then I don't continue being mad at him because then he's not made me feel bad. Like I did something wrong. Yeah. Which I think it's the beginning of, well, I don't think I know in Mike's instance that was really the beginning because it's like you, you start to, that's where I really can see I started to take responsibility for everything. Yeah, you know, yeah. Everything that happened, even when he hit me.

Right, there was a way that I just, in my mind, caused my fault. Yeah, I mean even that time, like I just know he would get mad at me for something and I wouldn't even know, something stupid, and would not speak to me at all. I mean, walk down the hall past me, not acknowledge me. And you know, we had at least one child at this point, and it would go an entire week. It was so uncomfortable. And then a friend would come over, and it was it was my loving spouse again. And we were this great couple. And it was such a mind like I don't know if I can cuss. Yeah, you can cuss if you want to.

Okay, well, it was always such a mind fuck because I would get to the point where I'd be like I can't do this. And then he would be this great person again. Yeah, you know, it was mental all the time. So that that that would be a week at a time. Yeah. But that's the total description of the cycle of domestic violence. Right? Yeah, on the early stages for sure. But as it whether whether you're in the stage of just um just I hate to use that word again. Whether you're in the stage of verbal abuse and physical abuse, or verbal abuse and then leading to physical abuse, I mean, there's still that like, because I think in the beginning, I don't know about you, but I still had enough about myself right out of the in the beginning, where I was like, whoa, I was starting to believe it was me.

Right? But I still had enough about me that I would be like, you know, I just my gosh, I don't want to be treated this way. And then you would get the, oh my gosh, I love you so much, I'm so sorry. Right? You're the love of my life. Just when you're about to say, I'm done, I can't do this, right? They come back in with that. I mean, I even had friends, um, saying when it was decided that I should stay home from work for the children, which I didn't want to do. Not that I don't want to be around my children, but I was very independent. Right? You know, I liked making my own money, but that's so not like you. I can't believe you're doing that.

And I thought about it, and I was like, well, yeah, but it's what I need to do for my family. Now, in hindsight, it was all to set up the stage for me not having any income of my own and Tim being able to control everything, which is what happened. Which is real, yeah, very, very typical. I'm gonna take a pause for just a Please bear with us for a few. seconds listener I just wanted to take a pause for a minute and gather my thoughts. So I'm curious going back to though, like you're going through the first pregnancy, you're experiencing verbal abuse. Then at this point, did he ever touch you during that period of? No, and you know for me, the physical came much later.

You know, it was for me the verbal and emotional is what started, you know, really kind of building and becoming more and more, you know, whereas it wasn't so much a once a week thing, you know, it was becoming like a daily thing. So if you remember, and I'm sure you know, I know for myself, especially in therapy, I've reflected back. a lot now in these years. And I it's been so many years for me personally. Like, there are things I just absolutely do not remember, but you know I remember that time of kind of like initial events and where that buildup started. Do you remember that? Are you okay walking us through that? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I remember one specific night.

You know, like I said, there were little things where he would get mad and not talk to me, but I remember a night that we would go out with friends on a because we would have someone a family member babysit, and it was our time to go out. And I just remember this night we went out and everything was good, but I noticed like he didn't really like when I talked to everyone. I don't know if it was a jealousy thing or what, but was it just the opposite sex or anybody? Yeah, I think it was just the opposite sex, but we were all good friends. Yeah, and I just I remember we got into the truck to come home and I mean just lost it.

I mean calling me every name in the book, like the C word, telling me how I just I embarrassed him. I mean that was the biggest thing: I embarrassed him. These people don't like me, you know, and I can't remember 'cause it was so much, you know, and he was just screaming and I'm driving 'cause he's so drunk. And I just remember him just kept getting. in my face and just screaming and And you know, I just wanted him to stop. Right? You know, so I remember getting home and he didn't get out of the truck. So I just locked him in it 'cause I didn't know what to do. 'Cause we lived in an area that was not the super safest.

It's awesome that you could do that and protect yourself for a, not that we're condoning, but, and a family member was there and I remember this specifically. I covered for him and didn't say what happened. I just said, oh, he's, he fell asleep. So I'm going to let him sleep it off. And that was the start too of me constantly covering. Like I, that that became my cycle of him being this way. me covering it taking another day of him being awful. And then all of a sudden he'd be nice. And then boom, right, right over again. And do you think that the covering? Because I know for me, I mean a lot of that was coming into the more that I believed his bullshit.

So I'll say cuss word too so you don't feel like a Lone Ranger over there. I appreciate that. The more I believed his stuff about myself, like then the more I— because he had me so convinced that if I wasn't such a stupid, you know, B, if I wasn't such a, you know, the C word, if I wasn't all these things, then he wouldn't do the things he did to me. Well, exactly, I mean that's absolutely it because It starts being like, well, what am I doing? Like, obviously, I'm the one that's upsetting him all the time, and I'm the one causing all of these blowups. Now, I still have no idea what I did. You know, I was very loyal and loving, and you, like, my family, they were just my whole life.

You know, but he definitely made sure that was the case. 'Cause, you know, I was definitely isolated from some of the friends that I had, had even a little bit from my family at some points. Oh, yeah, I recall like, and I don't know if you experienced this, but like, it was the time where everybody had cell phones, but for me, I'm talking about my experience, you know, we. had cell phones but nobody was really texting yet. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Cause it was too hard to. We still had home phones and like there were things that you know, like if a friend called, I didn't have any friends I wasn't allowed to, cause none of my friends were like, you know, it was very few people that, and you know, if someone called and left me a message, I'd never get that message, even family.

And then like we got into this, like it was trouble. Like I couldn't talk to my parents, my I wasn't if I I couldn't talk to anybody when he was around. Oh absolutely. And I was like, I always, and looking back I'm like, I think it's it's absolutely control. but also it's like I at the time I thought well he didn't want me taking attention from him. Yeah. And I do think that was part of it but I look at just the control factor and how they get this this complete control of your life to make sure that you're not going to talk to anybody. Exactly. I mean mine even you know we had issues. If I was going to we had a boat so we were out on the water. Aah! And when I wore a bikini it was an it started big fights. And you know I'm like I work out hard I should wear one and I'm not talking to other people I'm not doing anything wrong. But he didn't want people to see me in one. You know it was like he just

he'd be super nice. and, like a carrot, you know, come on out, I'm ready to, you know, but then you have to go back. It's interesting because I've talked to women who have experienced, like, extreme jealousy, you know, as a part of it. Yeah, I didn't really experience any type of that, but there were— mine was so underhanded. Like, you know, I remember at one point I was very young; I was in my late twenties. And he's like, you know, you need to dress more like an adult. And I was like, what? What does that mean? And he sent me to, uh, Eddie Bauer, which I love. Eddie Bauer, I do. I like it now, but I'm much older— when you were younger— but I was 28.

And I'm like, and I come back, like, with the few things I was allowed to buy. And I'm like, huh? Yeah, you know. And it's crazy because I remember times like that. And then there was one time, like I went with his mother, and I was allowed to go and buy a few things that I let her, but everything had to be very, um, uh, conservative. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I can't tell you how many times you'd say a mother of this many children should not be wearing a And then it got to the point where he wanted me to dye my hair a different color because it was going to make me look frumpy. And you know, I was like, if he's going to be nicer to me and it's going to work, I do.

So I did it. I hated it. My one, one of my children came. home saw me and immediately started crying. Yeah, because he was like, that's not my mom. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, but the only reason he did it is because he wanted, he he would have loved it if I gained a bunch of weight and yeah. You know, which is so again very different because like in my case, there were comments made like you know, I like my women thin. And I mean, we were both into fitness years, and I'm very adamant about, uh, I mean, I taught classes for 30 years and, uh, competing and stuff. So they're always very fit, you know. And, um, so yeah, but it was always a reminder.

Like I like my women fit, and you know, I like my women thin, rather. And, um, you know and So for me it was like I knew there was a expectation there of being a certain way, but I think it was for appearances. So it's interesting because you find that, but then you find like in your situation, even though it sounds he was very typical and that, um, all about the appearances, right? But also like your mind. Yeah, yeah, I mean his definitely was more about making me feel bad about myself, you know? Cause even, you know, with the gym I got a lot of times, um, I wish you had spent as much time at home as you do at the gym, then our house would be better, but our house was always clean, you know?

And then it would go into the you're a lazy piece of you. know I mean, uh, and I do remember there was one day, um, that I came home cause I was I had to work evenings at one point, um, when we were getting divorced. Right? Um, because I had no money, because I he had me in the spot. So I had to start over. Yeah. So I was working nights at a place. Um, that sounds bad. It's not a bad place, like in a hospital; not that there's anything wrong with that, or non-judging. But I remember coming home one morning, and you have to walk through the laundry room, and my children's, and they were little, was all folded nice and neat on top of the.

And so he's standing there at the door with all three of them, and he won't let me walk through. And I'm like, I'm going to bed. And he said, no you're not. And I was like, yes I am. And he said, no you're putting this laundry away now. And I said, I'll put it away after I get some sleep. And he's like, no you're putting away now, you know, getting louder and louder. And I can see the kids' faces. And I looked at him, I said, what can I possibly do right now for you to let me go to sleep? And he said, you can say you're a lazy effing piece of shit. And he said it five more times, getting closer, pointing in my face, screaming it.

And I can see my children's faces. And I was just like, I just, my face just went, you know, whatever. And I just squeezed past him and laid down. And I remember packing my stuff because I was going to take us to my parents' house. And then I couldn't do it because I knew, like, I would go there and it they wouldn't do anything, you know, because I've covered for him so much. Yeah, people don't know what to do, I think. And it's not what people expect because in the movies we see this. Oh, she, you know, they call the police. Well, I never called the police. Right? I don't know if you didn't. No. Yeah, that's more common. Yeah, so nobody calls the police.

It's, I shouldn't say nobody; I will say I've heard many, many women say they never called the police. I've heard that a lot. And so, and then you, you've, you've. put on such a story, right? You've covered for them. You've created this facade and such a story that they're in such a state of shock. They're like thinking, you know, you're just in this mode, and you guys are upset and you're having a marital fight. Right? Right. Exactly. You know? Yeah. Because every other time, you know, I'm saying, 'Oh no, he has a headache or you know, just something so that they wouldn't think anything. And I mean, even, um, the so I don't know how far ahead you want me to jump. No, you're fine. Okay.

But so, um, I think I told you that marriage counseling is what was eye-opening for me. Okay. Um, so we went to marriage counseling, uh, because you know I was just like I know you know life just happens but you know I just thought maybe we need to go and talk to someone right. You know not realizing how bad things are. And so we met, uh, like separate together and separate. So that third visit, you know, after we met as a couple and separate, the marriage counselor says to me, your husband is an oozing volcano of anger. Oh wow. And then he said, and you're like a ray of sunshine and you suck into your shell and you're terrified to say a And I was like, Oh my God he's so right.

Why have I never seen this? You know, because I didn't want to see it I guess. I just thought I had to, you know, I just suck it. up for my kids. It'll get better, you know, 'cause there were always those weeks or whatever where it was better. Absolutely. That's the part that keeps you. I mean, and I know for myself, you know, I was so in love, and I wanted it to work. And, oh, by the way, I believed all this garbage that all this was my fault. And if I had just not made the mistakes in my life, hadn't been the piece of crap that I was being told I was, then I wouldn't be treated this way. And I, and so I was, I was really on a mission to try to do it right.

So, it's interesting that you say that because also, as former fitness instructors, you know, you have this, yeah, most of us are pretty bubbly. and personable. And then, yeah, I definitely remember getting into that mode where it's like you, um, it's like you're terrified to be yourself because I know if I am a little bit more quiet, it's just kind of like, yeah. Cause anytime I'm myself, as soon as we're in private, I'm being told like, you know, you're annoying, you know people didn't like you, whatever. Um, so yeah, that actually is what sparked when he got physical. So, when, tell me, tell me about that. So you, you have one child, um, and then at what point, so did he get physical? Was it after you had your first child?

No, it was after the third. Okay. So it was just all of that, you know, emotional. and verbal you know that just was getting worse and worse, which is immense by the way because here's something I always want to point out is that, um, in my understanding, my experience, yes, but also my understanding of everything I've studied and read, and through therapy, is that you know, uh, sometimes verbal exists without the physical violence but it's never a case, and I do say never, where you're seeing someone who is physically abused. It's not being verbally abused, but it is very common that it starts out verbal. Um, and I never want to diminish that because I really feel like you know the the the scars heal, right?

You know the Physical abuse scars heal, but it's those verbal wounds that we carry for so long. Yeah. And those are the ones that I really struggle with. And it could be because I'm fortunate in a way that you know we only had that one big event. Um, you know there were other potentials, and I can tell you about that, but um, but I still struggle with all of the verbal um, because I believed it. And I still struggle sometimes, even though I still struggle thinking like in my business like um, am I really good enough? You know? Um, because in the back of my head I have this voice saying, well no, you're lazy. You're you're you're not worthy. Like you're not good enough.

to do this you know Yeah And when you have those disappointing moments in life and business and I have experienced that too like I'll think to myself immediately well this is because you're a loser You're you know you're you know you're all these things and whatever made you think you could do that Exactly And I don't think people um give enough I didn't want to say credit 'cause it's not credit but just acknowledge that enough Like it is so hard to be going through that because it holds you back so much And the majority of the time you know once you realize that's what's happening and that person realizes you realize that's when they turn physical if they hadn't already, um you know, 'cause that's what happened with me.

So take me to to that moment when you know you had your three kids, and um kind of walk me through like the scenario of what happened. Yeah, so that marriage counselor said that we should go on a date. Uh, so we do, and it's kind of fine, you know, whatever. Um, and I just remember when we're driving home, um a friend of mine, a girlfriend of mine, was you know, texting, and that like bothered him. And I think I was kind of standing up to him a little. I think he was realizing that I was realizing what was going on, and he didn't like it. So he really just started. like it started when he unbuckled my seatbelt you know we're driving. He just starts all of a sudden like slamming me into the door.

So you're driving down the road and this is happening? Yeah. Yeah. He's like slamming me repeatedly into the door and I'm thinking, Oh my God, the door is going to open or I'm going to break the. And you're a small person. So it'd be very easy to do. Exactly. Well then all of a sudden, you know I'm telling him to stop. So then he starts driving super fast and slams on his brakes. So now my head keeps hitting the. And so he's doing that repeatedly. Um and so he goes to grab my phone and he he yanks it from me because I tried. to call my dad to tell him to help me. Um, so I remember he grabbed the phone and he's still slamming me into that.

And I'm like, give me my phone. I just remember being like, you want your phone? You want your phone? And he just took the phone. He just punched me in the face with it, like, I don't know, four or five times. Um, and somehow I grabbed it from him. And I remember I called my dad and I just screamed, help me, come get me. And at this point, he's like slamming on the brakes trying to get the phone. So I hung up my dad, and I dialed nine one one, and I'm running, and he comes around. I remember he grabbed my arm. So he got the phone in my purse, but I got enough. info on the nine one one of me screaming and everything that they sent someone.

But we were in our neighborhood, and I took off running to this neighbor's house I don't even know. And it's like 2 am and I'm just screaming, pounding on their door. Like I was terrified. I was like, I think he's going to catch up to me before they opened the And I didn't know what he was going to do to me. Like I thought he's, he's gonna like if he's not going to kill me. Hey, you still don't know what's going to I mean, because the raves that I saw and like what he's already done. And you know, so they opened the door and I just scream, I'm like shut the door, shut the door. you know and I'm just crying and they call the police.

So the police come, they try to go to the house because we were literally like a few houses down, and he's not answering. So then, you know, they take pictures, they see my purse in the road, he kept my phone, and they took pictures of like the marks that I had. And they take me up the street and my dad meets us there and he gets me out, you know, and then takes me to their house where my kids were because they were watching them, you know, and it was all just whatever, you know. So he said, all right, just go to bed. We'll talk in the morning. When the morning, it was kind of like it wasn't that big of a deal. So who says go to bed?

We'll talk in the morning. Your dad? My dad. Okay. Yeah. Where the cops were like, here's the number for the women's shelter. You should probably go there, you know, but obviously my children were at my parents So I wasn't going to do that. But the next morning, you know, my dad's there saying, well, you should really talk to him. And I'm like, I'm not talking to him. I can't. Like, do you understand what happened? And then he has me go over with him to the house to get some of my stuff, and like my dad just stood there in the hall to make sure everything was fine. So I get some stuff, go back to the, then over the next couple of days because we're getting close to Thanksgiving.

They keep trying to get me to ease up. And eventually they're like, you really need to invite him to Thanksgiving. And I'm like, what? You know, but you do what makes your family happy. And I know we always have this big event at my other family member's house. So I say, okay, I, you know, I you know, the kids probably need to see him. But what happens there is he acts like the doting husband, like won't leave my side. I mean, so uncomfortable. He has like his arm around me the whole time and is being, he won't let me have a sight because I don't know if he thinks I'm going to tell people what happened. But by then Didn't most people know what happened with your family? No. Just your parents?

Yeah. And they weren't saying anything because on that side of the family, you know, you sweep things under the As long as you show up and you look put together and you smile and nod and it's fancy, it's all good. Mm. Did you have any marks? I mean, did you have that point, the ones were gone? So there were some, like on my neck and like my arms, and especially from there, but it was like a week later. So nothing where somebody is going to say, I mean, I remember covering things up with makeup. Yeah. Yeah. But nothing where somebody is going to say, 'Hey, oh my gosh, what happened to you. No, and I can't understand that none of them noticed that I was so, like, quiet and reserved for myself, you know, because I was just so uncomfortable.

Right? Yeah. But then, like, two weeks later, you know, we say we're getting divorced, and that family, that side he goes to, and it's like, I love her so much I want it to work out. You know, I'm being quiet because I'm trying to, you know, figure out, one, how am I going to survive? Because I don't really, I can't support myself. Right? Because that's the position I was in, and protecting my kids, I don't want them to know what happened. But yeah, he's running to all of them, and they're, they're all blaming. me for it. Mm. You. Which is sad and so common. Yeah. Um, you know, I absolutely just applaud you that you were able to instantly— not instantly, but you know it sounds like it went on for a period of time from the, you know, the verbal abuse starts, and then it gets physical.

But at the point it got physical, it sounds like that was really your breaking point. That was like a, we're done here. It was especially because, um, a few months prior to that, I started seeing in my kids, um, them starting to talk to me a little bit like their dad. Oh yeah. Um, one of them called me lazy, uh, uh, and I was just like I don't want my kids to think this is the way a husband. treats his wife right. You know, it's just so I could see that they were picking up on it. Although I tried to shelter them, I also learned that my oldest wasn't as sheltered as I thought. Mm hmm. Um, so yeah, when it got physical, that was the last straw for me.

But the worst part is I had to live with him for an entire year after we were divorced. Oh my goodness! Yeah. Tell me about that. For financial reasons. Yeah. Because, um, I just wanted him to... Um, so I gave him all kinds of stuff, but to sign, he wanted it in there that we would wait a year to sell the house. And I don't know if that was because he thought maybe we would reconcile. I don't know what it was. So fortunately the way our house was there was a lower level that had an exit but had a full bedroom, bathroom, living area. So essentially he moved down there I was upstairs I worked nights. He worked days. So for the most part we didn't really have to interact and there's a restraining order this whole time also.

Oh my goodness! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um because there's a big court case. So how do you, I mean, and how do you even begin to navigate that? Well, I don't know. And that was another fight. So um you know you don't have a choice if you're pressing charges where we live or not. Um so press charges were pressed uh and the lawyer, his lawyer wanted. me to a letter saying that um I was not in fear that night. I've never been in fear of him, all of this stuff. And I flat out refused. I said, I'm not writing that. Yeah, that's just a boldface lie, right? Exactly. And so I, I he was really bad. I mean, he would like come at me at night when the kids were asleep, um knowing that I wouldn't call because I don't want my kids woken up that way.

But no, I had my lawyer write up something else just saying that I didn't wish for, I forget, like him to have a huge sentence or whatever. But if I had said that, and I know he's been coming at me again, how does that make me look then? Because I was absolutely afraid for my life. Like I have been since then. So I was never going to do that. And then you know he of course came to me. He's like well there's enough evidence in the 911 call and the pictures to put me away for at least a. And I'm like, and yeah I mean that's not I can't help that you did that. But again I'm feeling bad about it because that's you know what he does.

But that's what you've been programmed to feel responsible for. Exactly, for everything. Yeah, for every name that's called, for every, you know, fist that's, it's all your fault. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm feeling bad. Like why am I doing this to him? Should I just do that? And it's like no because that puts me in. a bad position because if he does something again, they look at that and I'm a Yeah. This is one of the things that, like you're describing, something that I think has been so frustrating for me over time. You know, my situation was so different because there were additional things involved because it involved, you know, one of my children was abused. And so, it was very different.

But in the state that I lived in at the time too, you absolutely, you know, the charge, like you said, you didn't have a choice to press charges. Like they were going to look into it and press charges. And mine was quite different. But one of the things I noticed over time more so when I got into volunteering and trying to help on the advocacy side for domestic violence victims is this re-victimization that goes on, which it did happen to me for sure. Right? But not at the level of like what you're describing, you know, kind of like that. But I remember the fear of like nobody's going to believe me. Right? You know, is anybody going to believe me? And it was so ludicrous because in my situation, I had kept a diary my whole life.

Right? And so I had, I mean, you can't make that stuff up. Right, right, yeah. You know I had had these diaries that were essentially, you know, real time. I guess you would call it real time. documentation Right You know of things that were going on and never in my wildest dreams, I mean even in the diary I would write things like gosh, I wish I could get this right. I wish I wasn't so stupid. I wish, you know, I blamed myself. But all that being said, you know there's this constant re-victimization. Oh, and you know it's not about because I've known men that have been victimized by other by women in the same sexual relationships. Right. And so it's not just exclusively to women. Right.

But I will say that like in the system, like I had a female attorney who was very powerful and I needed that. But the men in the situation I felt like I was constantly being re-victimized. Now I'm not to say that every male lawyer, judge, or anyone involved in that scenario is gonna do that. Right? But I can tell you even now, you know, there's been times when, as a matter of advocacy, I've spoken in front of like police force and judges and things like that who are, it's predominantly male. And it's like this, there's just this disconnect. There's this complete disconnect. And even a sense of almost kind of like, meh, you know, well, that happened, you know, kind of just diminishing. Yeah, it's like well, I mean that's all that happens.

Yeah, so even when we were living in that house for a after. we were divorced I mean he tormented me all the time You know like I would try to leave and he would just keep pushing the garage door shut every time I tried to leave. Constant things you know come at me at night about a dog barking. Like push me into the So when you say come at you like like come into your room? No like out in the living area and like push me up against the fireplace. Oh my gosh! Knowing that I'm not gonna call because I'm not gonna have my kids woken up and see their dad being dragged out of the He knew that.

Yeah and then I also have like so we finally went to put our house for sale and it wasn't selling right away We ended up having to do a different kind of sale. But I remember I would have a call with someone who was gonna be a realtor, who was a family member. And that family member is like, you're stressing your parents out. You're doing so much to them. And at the same time, she can hear my ex-husband calling me a bitch and yelling and screaming at me and calling me all these names. And I'm like, do you hear him? And they just keep going on about what I'm doing to my parents. And I'm like, well, what am I doing to my parents? I'm just trying to survive.

I'm not asking them for And at this point, like, I had to go to a because I was having panic attacks, which I've never had in my life. Like I went to the doctor and I just I couldn't even tell them what was going on. So they like gave me some anxiety medicine because I've never experienced real panic attacks in my life prior to this. But I remember when I was like, I can't do this anymore. My mom said, well, you have to; you don't want to ruin your credit. And I was like, do you know what's happening to me on a daily basis? Do you know what's happening to your grandkids on a daily basis? And you care about my credit? Yeah.

And see, here's where it's like for me, that doesn't give me any negative feelings towards your family. What it does is it reinforces to me just how little education. and knowledge, there is around domestic violence. Because one of the things we always talk about is like how that's affecting you today. Oh, I know. And how it's affecting your children. Yes, because I can definitely speak to that as well. It was awful. I mean, I've blocked a lot of that year out. It was bad; he did everything he could to make me. And I'll never forget this one night because I finally was like, I'm moving out before this sells. You're gonna have to start paying me child support, which he really didn't. But we would have to meet halfway to drop kids off because I worked nights.

And I remember I told him this is what I was gonna do. and he meets at the place we're meeting, but he's mad, mad, mad. So I put the kids in his vehicle, and then he kind of leaves, but then backs up like to not let me leave and keeps doing it. So I can't leave, and then he gets out and he's yelling all this stuff at me. And so people are around, it's like a fast food parking lot, and they're starting to get involved, and I can see them pulling their phones out like they're about to call 911 because it was a scene. Yeah, he finally drives off, so I'm able to, but I start like crying so hard, and then I start hyperventilating, and I'm driving.

I'm actually driving to the ER where I work, and my fingertips are going. numb So I know exactly what's happening. I'm having a full-blown panic attack driving, and so my head's feeling fuzzy, and I'm like, I've gotta get off the because this isn't good. So I pull over, I find like a little gas station, I call into work sometimes to be there in a and they're like, oh my God, what is going on? Because I could hear it, you know. And I'm like, I'm about to pass out, I can't control it, and they're like, okay, we know you know the people at the fire station down the road, we're gonna have them come over and check on you. And I literally passed out in my car from hyperventilating because of that incident.

Wow. And then I was so afraid of what's gonna happen because I actually am gonna move. Yeah. Oh yeah. It's wild, and we've been divorced for a year. And I'm still that like, well, we talked about that earlier too. I mean, it's just that fear. I mean, it's been decades for both of us, and it's like you still, there's still something in your mind going, is he gonna get me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know I have stomach issues, which I think a lot of women who've been through stuff do, and stress triggers it. And I will never forget that I had to put my kids on state insurance at a because I wasn't making much. But to do that, I had to basically show what I was getting in child support, which was not it was half of what I was supposed to be.

So I knew he was so far behind that that meant like they could arrest him and he was gonna be forced to. And I remember going to the doctor because my stomach was acting up, you know, the stress. And I told him because he's kind of a, that I had to drop this paperwork off. And he was like, what's the worst that's gonna happen? Is he gonna hit you? He's already hit you, right? But if he does again, you call 9 1 1 and he's arrested. And I was like, I know you're saying that, but people don't understand. But I couldn't even put it in the mailbox, you know, because of the fear of the retaliation I was gonna get. And I got a lot when it happened, when it came out.

I mean, the reaction was insanity. Yeah, I mean, telling the kids that he has to move now because I'm taking all of his money and calling my father, saying he's gonna have to step up now and be more of a role model because I'm taking all of his money and he can't afford to. And it's like, who does that? You weren't even participating anyways. Right, right, I know, but well, but I think it goes back to that just kind of, you know, even though you were the victim, you know, he wanted to be, he had to be the... Yeah, yeah. Because there's no self-awareness. You know, we have so many tag words, I don't even know. I was sitting with a good friend of mine the other day who has many accolades in like it's very well-trained therapist for many years.

Right? He was telling me a story about somebody talking about narcissists. He's like, I don't even know what you mean, what someone means when they say that term anymore. Oh, it's so loose. Everything's so, yeah, they use it for everything. Like in today's world, like you're a narcissist, I'm a, we're all narcissists. You know, it's crazy. So, but I say that to say that, you know, it is really, I do think sometimes things like that can be useful in understanding kind of like a cluster of behaviors or attitudes or, you know. and I'm not a therapist but just from, you know, what am I understanding is from consulting with professionals and a little bit of reading I've done is that, you know, it still helps to understand like you're dealing with, you know, who knows?

Are you dealing with a sociopath who really has absolutely no, you know, my understanding of a sociopath is like there's no conscience there? They're just kind of like they can do anything. It's always your fault. You know, nothing outside of, you know, everything is outside of me. There's nothing internal to reflect upon, which I think has kind of co-mingled with narcissism maybe or, you know, I'm sure there's probably gonna be somebody who listens to this who's actually a who can actually give some insight, but when I think of that, I just think of that whole host of You know the people who you know when you think of someone. And I remember when I was going through it and at one point sitting with a specialist who my ex had actually hired to come to where I was living with my children and evaluate us to kind of basically I think he thought, you know, cause they always they don't think right.

They always thought I think that they're gonna show that hey, you know, it's really her, it's not me. Right? Oh, absolutely. And I remember him. sitting and he said, I said, I don't understand. How can he not love these children? Think like that, he said, because this type of personality can only love someone as an extension of themselves, cannot fully love someone outside of themselves. And so that's been something I think I'll probably spend a lot of my life trying to wrap my mind around, but I do understand it better today because it's the only way that people can do horrific things, right? It's the only way they can be okay with that and then blaming you instead of taking the responsibility.

Was there a time, though, when I mean we talked earlier in the conversation about that cycle where after Because I hate this and I see it a lot but you really diminish. You're like, oh, it's just that one time. But anytime somebody lays hands on you, whether they're pushing you, whether they're grabbing you, anything they're doing that's physical and that's not allowed. And you see it so many times where particularly women who've been in domestic violence, it's like it's only the one instance where I actually got a black eye that I felt like was legitimate. Well, yeah, no, that is the way it is because yeah, the little things that happen, because there were lots of little things that happened or super anger outbursts. where something was broken or thrown or stuff like that.

Which is terrorism. That's very terrorizing. And I don't mean terrorism like a national terrorist, I'm just meaning it's terrorizing to an individual when you're living with someone who is throwing things, breaking things, screaming, and yelling, into doing those things. Yeah. And I think for this scenario, somehow he was very aware of when people were around and how to make it look okay, and then how to make me see that and kind of forget about some of the other things, which obviously started changing once we did marriage counseling because it was eye-opening because I then was looking back and seeing all of these things that had been happening that I just brushed off. Yeah, diminished. Diminished is like the word for all of this because it does.

And I think that's the really good things I got out of therapy. Because even when I went to therapy, I was nervous because I thought she was going to tell me like, well, I mean, is that really abuse? You know what I mean? Because it's been diminished, and that's absolutely not what I got. I got a, you absolutely what you've been through. No, that's not okay. And it was still hard for me to accept that because everyone else has diminished it. Right? Well, and I'm curious. like in your childhood and growing up did you see any domestic violence or anything that you consider to be like a really unhealthy example of a relationship? No. So my parents almost got a divorce because my dad had an affair, but they got back together.

I did see my mother mistreat him after that and constantly bring it up and throw it in his face. So when it first happened, I was so mad at my dad because he was like my everything. I'm like, how could you do this to us? But then he went to counseling and stuff, and he came back. So after that, seeing how my mom was treating him, I really felt bad for my because she just would bring it up. I mean, I'm not even going to lie. So my dad passed in like five-ish years ago, and I remember I was over there like two weeks before and we were trying to do something on the computer and she brought it up. Wow! Just never let it go.

Yes, and I just I don't know how my dad dealt with that, first of all. So I saw that, but I mean honestly, I always tell people my childhood was pretty basic and boring. The only thing I can think of is that the only thing I was ever complimented on or whatever is, oh, you're a great athlete and you're pretty. Like those are the only things that had going for me. I wasn't smart; my brother was super smart. I mean, he was aerospace engineering. I was an athlete, and I was really knew I was good at was that because my school wasn't that great because I had ADD, but I didn't know it back then. Right. But you worked in the medical community. You were very accomplished. You're very educated.

So you, it's just this message that I think oftentimes— and I don't think parents mean to do it, you know—and, and I'm a parent, and I always say I hate it, and I don't mean to be flippant about it, but I'm like, you know, my children will spend the first 18 years with me and the next 18 years in therapy, you know, and I'm not because you're trying to make mistakes, not because you're being, you know, not— not that. I'm being negligent with how I'm trying to parent, but it's just that we all carry those old wounds, and sometimes we don't recognize the wounds for what they are. And, you know, so when you hear that, it doesn't again, you know, there's no judgment of, you know, your parents.

I think that parents do the best they can at the time, for the most part. Not everyone, but most of them do the best they know how and the best they can at the time. But then I think I've learned, and I'm just wondering through your therapy: did you learn, kind of when I hear that, because I can relate so well, because I remember feeling kind of having similar messages. And So I'm just wondering, like you know, do you look back now and kind of see like how this stage was starting to be set in some way? I kind of do because, yeah, all that I placed value on was if I looked good and if I'm good at sports and athletics and working out. So yeah, I mean it's kind of funny.

So I love my dad; like he was the best. But also, with therapy, I found out he's actually who hurt me the most in the long run. But his goals for me, he wanted me to be, as my brother's going into aerospace engineering, you know, I was like, huh, that's a little interesting. So he had kind of decided when he felt like your capabilities were. Yeah, and he didn't think. I was dumb or anything, but I didn't do the best in school. I mean, I did end up getting like a full ride for but to JUCO because the D1 schools wanted me to redshirt for a year. And I was like, I don't redshirt. But I also think, you know, I was like, I don't sit the.

But I also think in the back of my head, it was like I'm not. I feel like if I'm sitting the bench because my grades aren't good, then I'm just not good enough. You know, although I could have played on the team and done really well because I did great, you know. So always kind of this thought of, you how to be good enough. And then it's interesting when, because I know and for me, you know, just like you it really wasn't of any fault of my family or my parents. It was just that the message that I derived, and here's how I kind of explain this, is because I'm like, look, you know, you can have two people, because I have siblings, I have a sibling, and you know, totally different, you know, same messages, totally different.

And of course, with my family, you know, we were always told you can do anything you want to do. So we were two females and, you know, we were told we could do anything. And so I always had that encouragement, but then the messages more so outside of my immediate, you know, group, like my parents, that was you know, it was like, well, you're pretty you know and that was where the value somewhere in me but you know my sister was it's not like she was an ugly duckling you know like she was complimented for being pretty too. And it's just interesting how different people will take that message in and how that just differs in different people. Well, and I think part of it is you know I watched my mom cry over her weight.

And I think I remember being 12 and seeing that and saying I will never put myself in a situation where I'm crying about my weight. So I think for me the few things I feel like I've ever been able to control is my weight because of working out and doing that And then how I present myself, right? But at the same time, that's not good. I learned that in therapy because I told her, you know, as long as I'm put together, you people don't really know that I'm falling apart inside. And so it's so interesting because we've talked a about that journey as well. Just going from, and then when you're in the industry, like you, by nature of it, become obsessed. Absolutely.

You know, I was obsessed not just with what I look like, but what percentage body fat did I have. Absolutely. Yeah, there's always one body part that you're like, okay, this isn't perfect right now. And then you get that kind of where you like it. and then you're like, oh wait, I missed that part. You know, it's always something. And you know, it's funny because I look back and I think, gosh, I wish I was as out of shape and fat as I thought I was. Right, right, yeah. But I wouldn't trade today for anything for the growth and just the true sense of self-worth and absolutely. And it takes a lot of work, and it takes therapy, you know. And when I did go to, they had me do this trauma narrative.

Have you done one of those? No, I haven't. That's interesting. Yeah, so, and I may mess this up a little bit. So the first day, you just write down the facts of what happened, you know, driving on the street, you know, unbuckled. my seatbelt just straight like that. And then you come back the next week and you write in emotions that go with it, like what you were feeling and what was happening and what you felt, like what you were feeling emotionally, and then what you felt through it, right? And then the next week you kind of go back and you write in what you've learned from it. But the interesting thing was mine is mine ended up getting expanded because the actual event wasn't the biggest thing for me.

It was what happened that next week where my dad made me bring him to that event and all the family, you know, at that point, like that was what hurt me the most because that should have never happened. Well, now you have no protection, right? Right? The person that always protects me is now pushing me out there to cover for him. And then what happened beyond that was like people not, you know, protecting me. They all were just like, oh, she's young, she just looks good and wants to be single. And like, not a single one caring or wanting to know what happened, which is so sad, because, and I don't care anymore, that's the thing. Like it bothered me for years. Like they would invite him to family things and not me.

Yeah, but I think that's so. I think that you say you don't care anymore, and I see that, but I think that it's important because people, I think that is probably pretty common, and I've heard it time and again. And you know, it seems to be like this one extreme to another. Like if you're not that, anyone's situation is worse or not, but you know, in my situation, because of everything going on, like there was never a Like my family, not only do they believe me, my father wanted to absolutely do away with it. He would have, you know, if that would have been legal in this country, you know. That's kind of what I expected for mine. He probably would have been there, yeah.

But all that being said is, you know, so I had my family kind of, but it was such a different. extreme situation Right. As far as the court and the legal stuff that was going on Absolutely, yeah. And they didn't see any of that, you know. Right, right. But even at that, you know, I like to think that I would stand behind, you know, my child regardless. Exactly, yeah. And there's been other things where, you know, other things have happened that, you know, it wasn't handled the same. But I just say that because I think it's so important for people to, like, I think all these societal things, you know, the police and the way that it's handled at times. And there are some really great advocates out there that work at the police departments.

And I really appreciate these individuals who are striving hard. But the sad part is is that that's not the masses. Exactly. And then it's just still such an ugly thing. We all want to believe it's just happening in the, you know, in the lower socioeconomic areas and, you know, that it's not happening anywhere where anybody actually, quote unquote, matters. Right? Well, and then the other thing is, you know, when your family's kind of being like this, then it triggers again where, well, I am the one, yeah, it is all me, the self-doubt, it's gotta be me because why are they embracing him? And you know, yeah. And 'cause my parents. would say it's because of the kids, but I had full custody. Right? So that was crap.

But I am happy that prior to my dad passing, we had one conversation about it where we actually, I mean, I got into it. I told him, 'You picked me up in that cop car that night. You know what happened to me, and you continue to shake his hand And I told him, 'Every time you shake his hand, you're spitting in my face.' Yeah, and he never shook his hand again after that. So I got maybe six months of him not shaking his hand, but still the fact that I finally felt the, oh, sorry, courage to say that to him, you know, 'cause my dad was my rock. Yeah, I never wanted to hurt him. My mom didn't. like it. She took a different route on it, but he heard me.

Yeah. And I feel like he felt bad because he was, you know, feeling validated, right? He made a choice and let you know that you mattered. Yes. Yes. 'Cause I can kind of understand them wanting to, you know, for the kids, but not necessarily. They don't have to be like all buddy-buddy. And to that point, you know, sure. So I do want to, um, we've got about 15 more minutes. So I do want to kind of ask a few questions about, like, so as you've gone on today, yes? Now the divorce is done. You've remarried, you know, life is great. Yes. Um, on the outside. Right. Right. And you do seem like you've really gone through. your own journey and done a lot of healing. Um, what do you think for yourself?

Like, and you're a very professional woman. We're not going to say what you do. And previously, you worked in the medical industry, so very educated too. So it does surprise me when you talk about, like, just not uh feeling smarter, capable there. Um, but all that being said, um, you know, what have you seen? Like, the long-term effects, like your children, you don't like what were they in adolescent years when when you divorced? Like, they obviously saw a lot. Yeah, they were young. Um, so that year that we had to live together after divorced, um, they were still in elementary. school I don't even think my youngest was in elementary school yet. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So they were young.

Um, I didn't find out until years later that my my, um, Um, oldest child had experienced some of it, you know, cause I thought that I protected everyone. Right? Yeah, that's the misnomer. My heart, cause he was having anxiety. Yes, and I took him to the doctor, and when they asked him when it started, he said, you know, that timeframe and this. And I mean, it just, it crushed me because I thought I was protecting them and doing the best I could. But at the same time, I was trying to heal, and I was trying to get by because I thought I was just a worthless piece of, you know, and my family wasn't supporting me. And, you know, I just, I, it's very isolating.

So I hate for any women going through this, you know, where people are making you think that way because it is your truth. It did happen, and right, if you don't have support, you know, there's so many of us that have been through it that would, but they there's definitely people will try and minimize it and make you feel like it, it didn't happen or whatever. That's not that bad. And that can be the most lonely time. I mean, there were times I, I don't know how I ended up picking myself up and becoming successful because I was in this spot where I didn't. Beating myself up for, oh my gosh. Well, why, why was I this way? Why did I make all of this happen? You know, yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's the hardest part that women either are afraid to go through or they don't know that's going to happen. And when it does, it makes you feel even worse because you're just like, well, should I have left? Maybe it was better just dealing with that because then I had people around. Yes. And I think most people go through that moment where they're like looking back and going, would it have been? Because it is so hard. Yeah, I haven't looked recently, so I don't want to be quoted on this. But, um, last time I looked in the statistics. It takes an average of 12 times of a woman leaving to actually stay gone. Yeah. And you know, um, that lack of support and people believing in you and cause people want to minimize it.

It's so scary though. Even when you're in a situation where I had family support, once they knew what was going on, um, you know, it was so scary because even just that psychological game that you've been playing with. And oh, by the way, you were in love with this person, had children with this person. And I wanted so badly to go back to the quote-unquote good times. Right, right. Cause you're like it was. And then there's the things, you know, when you're out. I mean. like I would have my tires flattened during a snowstorm and I have to get my kids to school, you know. And so my dad has to come because they don't have enough donuts. And he says, " Oh, there's no way he did that. There's no way. It's gotta be something takes them to the tire shop and the tire shop says someone let the air out of these tires. Oh wow. And they still don't want to believe it.

I think it would have been really helpful, you know. And I also wish that maybe I was talking a little bit about what I was going through to some girlfriends because maybe I could have found some in, but I was too afraid to. Oh yeah. I mean I think there's the fear of like people knowing the judgment. Yeah, it was like a little embarrassing, and then it's also you're still in your head like, well, it's probably my fault. It's probably me. They're gonna look at me and go, oh my gosh, well, of course, that happened to. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I can completely relate to that. So, you know, after going through, so it's like this constant moments of even just being kind of silently terrorized. Yes.

And you know, you mentioned today like you still like there's still that fear. There is, you know, I driving here, you know, I just, for some reason, I got this like anxiety and a little bit of fear of what happens if he hears. this Yeah Like what's the retaliation gonna be Although it's the truth Right You know but I just yeah I don't know And so it's really interesting It's a very much a legitimate fear Yeah For sure Even though probably if you think it through in your mind the chances of even if he listened like of him actually doing something are probably slim to none right Right right Especially now that I'm married that makes a difference Right right But it's just that fear that's in us because I know I look you know and my ex has moved on and the chances of him doing but the thing is it's like when you're in a situation with someone who's the person you're most afraid of in the whole world.

Right? And oh, by the way, you sleep by them every night and you had children with them. Yeah. And it's the person who has physically hurt you the most that you've ever been injured or hurt in your life. That doesn't go away. No, it really doesn't. I mean, we're kind of at a decent spot for the first time since. Yeah, because you still have to. So the permanent restraining order, or the restraining order, excuse me, went away. Yes, so that was for, but the entire year we were living together, that was there because he pled guilty. Mm hmm. Okay. Yeah, so, but told everyone else it never happened. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, I've gone through the same thing. Yeah, but so we weren't co-parenting honestly until probably the last six months.

And a lot of it has to do with some stuff with my oldest son. And I think it's just, and then I got married, so I haven't been married that long. But I think that we found a way to come together to support that child. And I think it is really good because I don't want our kids to have to do separates, and he is being well. I mean, in all honesty, the first time that my husband met him prior to us getting married was a, I mean, it was. But as the ex came out at a basketball game towards me, just screaming at me, yelling at me. Oh wow. Yeah, how embarrassing. Yes, and this is only like three years ago. Oh my gosh, yeah!

My husband's there, who was just dating at the time, and he was like What's going on He was like, " No, no, no, no, you better back off. I don't know what you're trying to do And it was so weird because then he came around to the boyfriend, kneeled down, and put his hand on his thigh and was like I'm so sorry," kind of giving the story. Never once apologized to me. Things are getting a little better, but I still never know. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. That is the thing. So you can work together for the sake of your children. And again, in a different situation where obviously you did. divorce he did finally leave you alone, which isn't common.

It took me getting married for him to finally cause every time we would start to be nice, like in cordial, it would turn into a Yeah. And I don't know if it was cause like he thought we were going to get back together or not, but I mean it was just Yeah. Awful. Brought about animosity. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious then, now you look back over it, and what are some of the things that did you have a sibling that noticed that tried to I mean were you very verbal about what was going on? Cause it didn't sound like you were. No, I wasn't. It's pretty common to be more hidden. I was very hidden. And even so we had a group of friends that we hung out with all the time and they didn't know.

So we'd all go out on our boat together and everything out there would be great. But then when we would leave, that's when it would all blow up. But I never said anything to them. Right? I just, I didn't know how I could because we were all such good friends. Like if I said something to the one girl who I was good friends with, but it was her boyfriend and we're all in this friend group, I don't know that she would have. I was worried, you know, she's not gonna keep it. And then, so I just, I was afraid to. I didn't feel like I had anyone that I could talk to about it. And every time I was about to, like I said, because he would, it's like he knew, and he would jump back in and be this doting husband.

Yeah. So now, today, you fast forward, remarried, you know that part of your life is over, you still going to therapy to kind of continue to cope and to heal from this experience. I actually want to go back because I am finding, you know, that all of this change is difficult, you know, even with, you know, him being back around. I have, you know, feelings about that that, you know, I don't know how to. Right. You know, I'm happy about it, but at the same time, am I getting, like, am I now gonna be stifling all of my feelings again and not able. to talk about anything. Am I gonna be put back in that position where I just, you know, he's in control? Also, you know, I know you and I talked about this.

Like, I, you know, with the kids getting older, you know, I feel like I've lost a little of my, because my whole world was just my, you know, I spent 12 years just them. And now that they're off doing other things, you know, and I have this new husband, we've been married almost two years. It's just a struggle to find my identity again. To figure out, yeah, yeah, to figure out what now, because I know I've been going through that. And then some of those self-doubts come back up, you know? Sure. And I think that you. know moving forward, you know, not that I would ever tell you what to do. For myself, you know, I've had moments where I've been like, you know, I'm done going to counseling. Right?

I don't wanna talk about this; I don't wanna hash it out anymore. And by the way, what I have found for myself is like if, when you're going to a counselor that really knows, really experienced and well-versed in trauma therapy, you shouldn't be hashing out all instances. You shouldn't be. Right? Because I felt like I went through a merry-go-round there for a while where it was just bringing up all this trauma for me. But I've been so blessed to have a wonderful therapist. for the same one for the last seven, eight years. And she's, oh, I might need to get her number. Yeah, she's so well trained. Yeah, you know, and one of the things that we always talk about, it's just really continuing to.

Yeah, because this is not, I always describe child abuse, and I believe domestic violence as well, to be it's not an instance. It's not a situation where this happens, oh, you're taken out and everything's fine and everyone is fine. Right? Your children, sadly, will have ongoing things. If they haven't gone to therapy yet, someday they will probably come up and their relationships, marriages, whatever, or their work life or somewhere. else where they will have some type of irrational emotion and be like where is this coming from? Yeah, you see it time and time and time again. And so for me, yes, doing this podcast is whether we're talking about more serious subjects like we are this month for National Violence Domestic Violence Awareness Month, or we'll talk a little bit about breast cancer because I've had that in my family as well and definitely want to talk about just that triumph that women have over breast cancer.

But all those things being said, whether you're talking about more serious, but we'll go into the lighter things too. Right, absolutely. But at the end of the day it's like if it helps one woman if there's one instance of hope that comes out of sharing a horrible story, sharing something that happened that has traumatized your life and then moving forward. The triumph isn't just in, we talked about this earlier like many times I've been asked to because I am successful, because I went on, and because like you said I'm not very put together today. Well, no you are, you are. You know kind of the same thing like you present yourself, you're educated, you're well-spoken. And so you know it's like, oh you know people just to give another eye, you know another light to those things. But At the end of the day, it's like, you know, let's not forget this is such a, it's such a huge issue in society as the long-term effects. Absolutely. So going back to that, you know, it's not an instance you're taking out; everything's fine.

And that's something that's hard when you think about that. It's hard for me anyway. I hate the way that it affected the way I parented my older children. Like you said, when you're trying to heal and just trying to deal with yourself every day, you miss some of the things that they're going through. You can't even. Well, and I had a tendency to be too strong of a parent at times, trying to be mom and dad for all. the years. And then just not being able to cope with, you know, your brain's in a sense of fight or flight. Yeah. You're just trying to keep your head above water. I mean, I was talking to another young woman about this a few days ago and I said, gosh, I remember just being like on high alert.

Like you're looking around, you're still thinking, oh, what's going to happen? Yeah. Now, for me, through therapy, I've gotten to a point and I've used, and I really believe in some of the grounding and more naturopathic, at least it's worked for me, methods of trying to heal some of those really post traumatic stress disorder, so that the brain gets out of that fight. or flight. But it is interesting because there's always that thing I had a woman tell me, actually a woman I went to church with, when everything came out and we were going through it. We're in another state. She had endured a domestic violence situation 23 years prior and had three children in that as well, and then had remarried, had more children, and you know, had a wonderful husband.

And she said to me one day, she said, I hate to tell you this, she said, but for the rest of your life you will think, as irrational as it may seem, there will always be something in you that goes back there and thinks, you know, what if he gets, you know, what is he? going to do to me Yeah You know Yeah It's crazy because you don't think it I mean even the anniversary of the night that our big thing happened and my therapist brought this up to me but I would always like that day for some reason I would just be off you know and I would start making some irrational decisions You know I think I quit a job one time on that day not thinking

but my therapist always said your body's remembering like it was just so weird You wouldn't think that but I mean it still happens to me every time but now I'm aware of it So I can kind of say okay this date's tomorrow you know it's okay You know don't make any rash. decisions you know but I totally get it. It's funny that you mentioned that because the anniversary date of when everything happened for me was this month. And it wasn't just, you know, I don't say just, it wasn't a big, you know, it wasn't a physical act of physical violence against me. It was when one of my children disclosed that my husband was sexually abusing my child. That's almost worse. No, there's nothing. I mean, you know, and that's why I always say there's not worse.

I've heard some horrific stories. That's awful to hear that. Yeah, but when you think about that, and I agree with you, anyone who's gone through that, you know, I would give my life to take that away. Yeah, I would do anything to take it away, and you can't. But all that being said, it's like, you know, I always experienced that I come upon it, and I'm like, you know, there's a change of season, all these things. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, and your body does start to, and in fact, we talked about today. I'm like, gosh, I haven't been on antidepressants for years, but I had to go to the doctor, and I'm like, I feel like I need to get over the hump.

And I'm like, oh my goodness, you know, and it's crazy because I'm just like putting it together as you're saying this. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, it's wild how the body remembers. even when the conscious mind isn't just right there, you know, reminding you and you're not thinking about it, but you just know the season. I, um, last year I was driving, um, a similar road. I think it might've been the same road. Just happened to be excited to pick a kid up. Um, and it hit me as I was driving it because it was the same day, and I had to pull over. I got so shaky, and it's like it, it's, it was 13 years ago. Like, why?

But I mean, as long as you know it, it's easier to kind of deal with, I guess, you know. And I think it's really important too, in these times, you know, um, I go through it almost daily where I have to remind myself that, um, that's not who I. am Yes, that no matter what someone says, you know someone can say anything, but it doesn't make it true. Right? Right. And so, you know, through continuing to work on, you know, like I said, some things that I do daily just for myself that have become healthy habits. Um, but also just working with a therapist and getting to that point. And I think things like this, I think it really, um, helps to give back and to to share your story.

You said earlier, you said you know, I think this is going to be therapeutic, and I hope it has been. It definitely has been, you know, I think the more you can like talk to other people about it who understand, you know. and maybe that's something important for people to hear that are kind of going through it that don't know like if you have one friend, right? You know that you trust that you could start talking to, because it'll make such a, you know, because like I think you said you hid yours, I hid mine. Yeah, um, you know, I I protected and covered, and I wish I had had one person I could have talked to about it, and maybe it wouldn't have been as hard, you know?

Yeah, I think it's just that, um, I mean that's that's what we're kind of conditioned to do. It's the hiding. But I would say, you know, um, I had a friend who, uh, had grown up in a domestic violence situation and one of the things she did because I know some there might be someone out there listening who's like, gosh, I hear these things and I know this is happening or what do you do? And the and I've had people ask me what do you do? I have this sister or a cousin or a friend, or there's not much you can do until they talk to you. And then when they do talk to you, the best thing I feel like that was, you know, I didn't tell anybody.

The little tiny drips I would give was to my sister and it was very minimal. And honestly, it was times when I thought, oh my gosh, I would reflect and be like, I could have— he could have taken my life. We could have died tonight. I mean you know when I looked at things and I thought oh my gosh and I was so terrified of what could have happened. And so, but all that being said I had a friend who had grown up in that and she gave me this book written by Lundy Bancroft and I hope I get it right. It's called Why Does He Do That? Into the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. And I think he's Dr. Bancroft, I don't quote me on that. Mr.

Bancroft, we'll call him, has written a series of books and you can read, I mean, and he's done I think he's devoted most of his work to domestic violence and how not just you know, gain awareness for a person to gain awareness but also the effects on. I've read several of his books, but she gave me this book. And I remember taking it and being like, and we didn't say anything. And I put it and I hid it. And then the more scared I got, I would read it, you know, in very private when he wasn't around. And I started, and as I read it, I was like, this is my husband. And that was my first starting to gain awareness of maybe it wasn't me.

Maybe it wasn't because I was stupid and ignorant and all these, you know, list of just horrible insults. Maybe it wasn't that, you know. And you know, at the end of the day, as mothers too, you know, I think there's something kicks in; you're gonna protect your child. Absolutely. You know my hope is is that you know if someone hears or knows of or sees that, or even if someone is experiencing domestic violence, you know, just look at I'm sure now you can see it all online, right? Oh yeah! You don't even have to worry about having a physical book. But so many of those things I look back and those were just like my little glimpses of light that I think God kind of laid on me through other people to gain awareness so that when I looking back, I think he was preparing me and you know I was prepared for that day.

And even if I struggled to believe, and I did struggle to believe what had happened to my child, I knew these other things and I knew this was real. Yeah. And I think that's the thing is we always have to tell ourselves is you know what you went through. It was real, and it's that's a big thing that my therapist had to tell me. Like she said, it's your truth, right? Own your truth, you know. But it is the truth. Well, yes. Because that's the thing is like the truth, but you know, cause she was like you know you stop feeling, you know, sometimes someone wanna talk to me about something and I would kind of say something and then I would stop because I'd be like, oh well, I don't know if I wanna talk about it.

I just get anxious or whatever. But once we started going down that. road of you know it is my truth, own my truth. Sure. Like that's okay because it's the truth and it's my truth. It is what happened, whether someone wants to acknowledge that or not. It is what happened and it did happen. Yes. And you know, if nothing else, like your very life and the struggles that you've had afterwards are just the display of. Yes, and there's so many after. Yes. But that helped me tremendously because you, as like a, you constantly diminish it like everyone else does. So just that line for her telling me that really started helping me a lot with being able to speak right. Like the truth of what happened to me, right, and not feel.

the shame and not feel the responsibility. Right, I just commend you because I mean I can't tell you I'm always surprised because, you know, as we were getting to know each other, and I was like, and I'm always surprised. I'm like, you know, don't take this wrong, but I'm like I feel like there's that connection. I'm like there's that magnet inside of me that, you know, I find. And, you know, I'm around very successful women all the time. You know, that's the group of people I'm generally around because of my career. And, you know, and it's amazing to me how many of these women who, you know, you get to talking and then particularly recently with people.

listening to the podcast, or if they've seen me speak somewhere, then it's like, oh my gosh, you know, and there's that trickle, and you just know it. Yeah. Because no one understands it like you do. No, no one does. And I think that's been the most amazing part for me after going to therapy, which I do want to start again, but, and kind of knowing, yes, it's my truth. It is the truth. But being able to kind of talk about it and just other women, you can kind of sense it. And so those friendships that I've made by that, and it's not like just going out to random people and just talking about it. You just know when you're sitting with someone, and you're just.

chatting like somehow it just naturally comes up when you're around someone who's been through the same. So I mean, I think that's something really positive for women who are going through it but don't know like what their support group would be like. And now, it took me a long time to find a support group but also, I was so busy with three children and all of their activities. Like I didn't have time for anything, but it would have been nice back then. Probably helps me get through some things a little sooner, but yeah, that bond though, that you find with so many women that have been through something similar. Yeah, and it's like you. say you don't talk about it because what was interesting is like when I finally made the decision just the different people talking to me and saying hey why don't you share your story like this.

You know I hadn't come to the point in my life where I feel like I really healed. You know am I completely healed? I'll never be healed, not until I go home. Right? You know I just won't be. And you know so for me it's like you know I feel like I'm to the point where I didn't really like you say you don't talk about it much unless somebody asks you know, or you don't. But then so that's what's even more interesting when you're drawn to and you make these connections with people in similar arenas, but yeah, so I would say, you know, one last thing again, you know, thank you so much for sharing, and I hope that, yeah, I hope that this, uh, just your ability to share with other people kind of gives you a lighter feeling today as you walk out.

It really does. Yes, you know, and I'm hopeful that people who are listening, you know, maybe they can find a connection, you know, to help them through whether they're still in it or out of it. Um, you know, I did have one friend who was going through it when I met her, um, and I wasn't super healed yet, but I ended up helping her get out of that relationship. Um, and now she's in the best relationship she's ever been in her entire life. But just because we kind of bonded, she wasn't really ready, but I can see it in her and we just... Right. Right. So you know, and that that's just such a good point because we do understand each other.

Then you can build a bridge of trust with an individual who trusts no one for good reason. Right. And so it is definitely a line of hope, which is what I hope to do with this, with no edits, is, you know, build a hope in women, no matter what they're struggling with, let them know that they're not alone. Um, and so I would wrap up with saying if if uh anyone out there listening is experiencing domestic violence or um suspects or knows of someone who is um please don't um keep it quiet. Call the National Center for Domestic Violence hotline at 1 800 799 SAFE S A F E. And um you know just just be a loving support, be there, let them know that you care, and um and we're here and we care.

And um moving forward I hope that you will tune in and listen to more of No Edits Women Life and the Truth in Between. As we continue forward, we'll be exploring more topics. Like I said um we'll talk about breast cancer awareness. Um I have someone coming on much later that has had a very interesting story with breast cancer and her family. And um and then we're going to get a little further into the road, and we'll have some more topics like hormones and all the things that we're going to say. again, thank you so for joining us and tuning again to No Edits Women Life and the Truth in Between