Exploring Mental Health and Justice

Host and Founder of The Fortune Society joins Dr. Elizabeth Christy, Associate Vice President of the Better Living Center, and Eugene King, a Fortune participant, to talk about the experience of navigating mental health concerns during incarceration and reentry.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Hello, I'm David Rothenberg hosting this podcast, The Re-Entry Reality Check of the Fortune Society, a nonprofit organization which advocates for the formerly incarcerated and for men and women still in prison. We also provide multiple services for the thousands who walk through our doors each year. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us today, um, David Rothenberg here with uh Liz Christie and Eugene King. You'll hear much more from them in a moment. The topic is uh mental health and behavioral issues. And before I introduce our guests, this is an issue that's much in the papers and uh and on the in the media generally about the number of people who are sent to jails and prisons with mental issues and emotional issues, and it's suggested that uh that they should be in alternative um treatment places. One of the things that never comes into the discussion is that many of the people who have mental and emotional issues uh got them when they first were in institutions. That the um the most dramatic, of course, is solitary confinement. But when you talk to people who grew up in youth, who grew up in youth homes and the the uh treatment and the and that they were, they grew up surrounded by adverse conditions and not being nurtured, it creates all sorts of emotional and mental issues. And many of the people have told us along the way that the way they survived was to medicate themselves on drugs and alcohol. And so that the early issues of abandonment or abuse or self-hatred never really were discussed, but they were created in the institutions that were now sending people to to exacerbate the problems. Um Liz, I don't know if I'm if I'm getting if I'm starting it off on an acceptable path. Um but you at Fortune Society, your title is um Senior Director of Behavioral Health and Fortune will be talking with Eugene King a little later, who is a man who came to Fortune and um participated in our behavi uh in our uh at a living center. But let me start with you as my what I just said, that that background, is that does that resonate with because you've obviously worked with many, many people at Fortune who have and in other arenas.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Yes, you're absolutely um in the ballpark. I uh have engaged with individuals who have had um some emotional or mental health needs before becoming involved with the criminal legal system, and that involvement only exacerbates them and makes them a hundred times worse. And there are individuals who um experience significant trauma um just in their first involvement um or initial arrest, incarceration. Um it it really is traumatic and troubling for people.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

So so a lot of people come to fortune almost everybody that comes to fortune is, quote, a client are coming out of jails or prisons. And uh over the years I've they they tell us that parole or probation or family pressures, find a job, get housing, those are the pragmatic things. And I've come to understand that one of the things that has to be done to to ensure uh the job and the housing is to undo, to deprisonize, which is emotional, mental health. Um it's a routine that's so the absence of decision making, for example, is part of it. But and that creates tension and strain, does it not?

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Absolutely. Um, and especially for individuals who wind up serving um long periods of time um to come home and to not have that same level of, all right, this is where you have to be, this is what you have to do, um, can really be problematic for folks. And there's the pressures of parole where all the hoops that people have to jump through, um and they're dealing with so many different external systems that they get exhausted just from that alone. And they're hearing different messages from people, and it it really creates more problems than it helps.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

And and the uh the Better Living Center, which is Fortune Society's response to it, started years ago because so many people were coming here. What what do you find here and and uh what is do you see transitions and do you see growth? And uh what's done to assuming that it is, because we're still here, uh what's done to uh to create that?

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Um I've seen a lot of folks make tremendous growth. Um and the biggest shift, um, I I've seen people who walk in and who are angry, who don't trust people who are Trust, that's a big one, isn't it? It's a that's a huge one. And to be able to then have a conversation with somebody that, you know, they understand that all right, uh for me personally, um I'm you know that I'm here to help and to just kind of sit and listen, that's a huge transition. Um and to be able to have somebody who can feel comfortable to speak about any of their any of the things going on.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

They have individual therapy and groups. Yes. So then before we even get to that, let's get back to trust because before they can go into any of the go into the process, uh how do you you have to create trust so that they're willing to participate. People can go through the motions and not get anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Sure. Um, and for some folks it's easier than others. Um a lot of times I I've had conversations where, you know, I give people choices where, all right, there are some things that, all right, our state, you know, Office of Mental Health, you know, really like requires that we do. But all right, if there are questions that you're not ready to answer, just say, hey Liz, can we come back to that? And to give people the option to know that, all right, I care about how they're feeling in the moment, as opposed to, all right, let's just get some boxes checked.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

So let's turn to Eugene immediately. We can both grill him on what worked and what didn't work. Uh because Eugene, you came and you became a participant in the Better Living Center. Um under what are you comfortable talking about under what circumstances and how you were able to respond?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yes, uh, definitely. I uh, as you recall, I was in uh uh the castle in 2005.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

That's the the fortune residence you were resident.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

And I was homeless and I was provided housing. Out of prison. Yes, definitely, out of prison from uh drug uh probation or violation for drugs. Uh first of all, I'd just like to say that I came to recognize that I was going to prison on those violations as a result of the death of both my daughter and my little sister, and my reaction to it was painful. And I used drugs. When I got to the castle, there was structure there, and I recognized that it was a place for me to seek to obtain some assistance with housing and things of that nature. Unfortunately, at the time, Fortune did not have a better uh mental health component, and I got into an issue with a resident there, and I was uh asked to leave. And thereafter, um I'm back on the streets, living in a shelter, and on a pivotal day in my life, I happened to cross the paths with Joanne Page, who is your CEO at Fortune at that time.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

At that time, she was the CEO at Fortune.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

And she had heard about the incident at the castle. We all heard about that incident. And she said to me three words that impacted my life and changed my life when she said to me, Eugene, you need balance. You need balance. Now at the time I didn't know what she meant, okay? Uh as a after that thereafter, uh, I had another violation for drug abuse because I wasn't dealing with the death of my sister very well. My sister was the closest person to me.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

When you say you're not dealing with it, were you medicating to so that you didn't have to deal with it?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yes, yes, definitely medicating. On my final release from prison in 2012, my friend and brother Kenneth Harrigan, who was at the castle with me during that period, I called him and he advised me, and I told him about my situation. And he advised me to come to Back to Fortune. And at the time, Fortune had just opened uh the Long Island City location because all I knew was 23rd Street. So I came over and the Better Living Center had just begun its operation, and we're talking about 2012. And what and the Better Living Center is the mental health component of fortune. The one facet of fortune that I recognize respect our retroactor, I mean I recognized that was missing when I was here in 2005.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

So before we go on with your story, I want to ask Liz. The when he I found it very startling that when he talked about, when he had when Eugene had told me once before that Joanne said to him, you need balance. That's a very um, I don't even know how to describe it, but you know, people who have issues emotional, mental, people call them nuts, people say you're crazy, and and then they resist and don't go for treatment because they're I'm not crazy, I guess. But for uh had you ever heard that you need balance? And how do how do you this is a population of people coming to Fortune Society. A lot of street people come from neighborhoods where therapy has not been accessible, it's perceived to be for crazy people. And then somebody says to you, Gene, you need balance. I find that fascinating. And I and I don't know how you at this, we'll get back to Gene's story, but I want to find out how when you interview somebody and they clearly have needs, how do you approach it to get them to participate?

SPEAKER_00 11:57

That's a tricky question, um, because approaching it's gonna be different for each individual, but I think the using the phrase balance the answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Everybody's different.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Yep. But using the phrase balance, I think, is it's never threatening, is it? It's not threatening, it's not stigmatizing, it's not aggressive. Um it's really where it's something that can almost be kind of concrete if you think about it.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

But it's not for everyone, is it?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

It probably I don't find there's one phrase that fits all. Yeah. But it it definitely is But it worked for him. And that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Yeah. Eugene proceed. I don't I hope we can handle this breaking in. I have no problem with that. But you know your life.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Absolutely. Permit me to say also that on that occasion that resonates continually in my mind to today, it's not what Joanne said, it was how she said it. Joanne, I was intuitively, I recognized that she was saying that out of care and concern for me as a human being. I was moved by that. And when I spoke to Kenny and I came over to Fortune, resonated in my mind, you need balance. When I got involved with the Better Living Center, Dr. Two was the psychiatrist, and Becky Paulit was my therapy. And we began, I began to talk to them.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Were you hesitant at first?

SPEAKER_02 13:31

No.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

You were ready.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

I was open. You were ready. Permit me to say this. I recognize that I had behavioral issues. And I recognize that I have this saying that no one in the insane asylum thinks they're insane. However, I recognize I had issues, and in my talks with Becky, my therapist and Dr. Two, Dr. Two sh diagnosed me as having PTSD and bipolar. Now I'm a certified paralegal, and when I was told these things, I went back to my computer and I began to research these terms. And I began to recognize that that was I was those things.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

So let me go back to before you came to Fortune, you had been violated and you were back in prison with the same emotional, mental concerns that that Joanne said, Well, you need balance. Was there anything in institutional life that addressed that or did it exacerbate it? And if so how?

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Permit me to say this. I'm laughing because quite frankly, it it's the it's a fair question, but the answer is categorically no. And in the many cases, and in my case in particular, I I dealt with a lot of staff abuse. I had to deal with the fact that I was just a number. And I did not feel any concern for me as a human being. Just a number. And to be quite frank with you, in all the years I have existed, the only times I have felt like I was being treated as a human being was when I was at Fortune. And especially in 2012, with the Better Living Center. And my many talks with Back, I was in therapy for over 12 years. And Dr. Two explained to me the chemical imbalance in one's brain, serotonin and the lack thereof. I was provided prescriptions, which I have been on for now over 13 years, uh, morning and the selexa and cerequel. And I am committed to maintaining this balance that Joanne talked about. And she and I have talked about it before. I consider that mental balance. You continue to talk to it. Oh, yes, definitely. Joanne Page. Mere words cannot express the width and the depth of my respect and love for that woman. That woman has been there for me and others and fortune. Ever since you hired her, way back in the late 60s. To be quite frank, which she is the most impactful woman I've ever met in my life. And I will always be thankful to her for that when she began when she told me I needed balance. And me coming recognizing that what balance was for me. I have experienced uh incidents with uh people in the city, and I note that my reaction to them was different than my reaction to that incident at the castle. I have stood back and looked at the behavior of some people and recognized that they too needed some assistance. They needed some balance. I wasn't in a position to advise them of that, but because of how they reacted to me, I recognized it was my reaction to them. It was my perspective that had changed.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yes, and when you were in prison, you must have seen the same thing with me. Oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

I recall once I was uh, as they say, in prison, I was locked up. And you can go to jail in prison, by the way. It's called the shoe. It's called the shoe. Yes, yes, where on one occasion a Hispanic officer, he handcuffed me, put me in a cell, and left me in the handcuffs. At the time I was very, very physically, uh, I was physical, and I was able to uh put the put the handcuffs reach for my three feet and pull the handcuffs above me. And I laid in that cell maybe four or five hours with steel handcuffs, which was violation of our Bureau of Prison's rules and regulations. And I recognize that this retrospectively, man, I recognized that these were some of the incidents that caused me to react the way I did when I was released. And it was it as a Hispanic on blacks. I was told that I was the I was called the in-word Hispanics. In prison, I re I read a group in the psychology department. It was about yoga. One of the participants was a dark-skinned, brown-skinned Cuban from the one of the Marolitos. I got in an argument and I was called the N-word. And I found that interesting because my experience with racism had been with Caucasians, but I began to recognize that racism exists in all of us.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Well, the the the word becomes a weapon. Yes. What Flo Kennedy used to tell us at Fortune, it's the pathology of the oppressed. Um I want to add, based on what you were saying, Gene, when people come in with the the kind of stories that he just told us that they've been cuffed and left in a single solitary, that's very tough to uh undo that. Um that's um traumatic and I mean trauma to say the least. Where do you begin?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Well, you begin at first just with being able to identify it and being able to start to understand, even just start to the impact that it that it has.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

So would you wouldn't if if you met Eugene, would you talk with him about that experience?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

If he felt comfortable and when or when he felt comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

What are you two doing? Well, permit me to say that. Through my therapy from 2012 now, I just stopped therapy last year. Because I I I reached that point where I recognized I was balanced enough to cope with life. But I've also come to realize that for me, I'm still bipolar, but it's the way I deal with my my emotions and the way I treat and and react to things.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

And you know in life that conflict will come up. Absolutely. And as I said, perspective. Life is recognized.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Life will hit you in the face. I recognize that not everyone I cross paths with has been in therapy. I recognize that not everyone I have dealt with has had to suffer that which I have. My baby daughter died when she was in a fire at 29 months old. She was burned so badly that the medical examiner refused to allow me to see her. And this is a result of the city in 1978 being bankrupt, and they held the fire department. Back for 20 minutes so they wouldn't have to pay overtime. And this was reported in the New York Post on January 4th, 1978. When I read that, and the fireman's requiring a saying they had a chance to save a life or save money, they chose to save the money. Now, Kimberly was my first child. The impact that had on me at that time was tremendous. I didn't even begin to imagine that. And because of where I was at that time in my mental state, if you will, this was during the times of the Black Panthers, the BLA, Malcolm X. I became very angry. And I looked at it as an assault on me personally and my family. And I took the position they want to save money. I began to rob banks. That was my reaction. Take in money, because that was all it was all about money. They wanted to save money. Now, as a result of that, I was arrested for a very large bank robbery. The Bankers Trust 1978-9. The judge, after he learned of my past and what had happened to my daughter, I'll never forget the judge telling me, Mr. King, had that happened to me, I don't know how I would have reacted. And he only gave me four years for a half a million dollar bank robbery. Now, unbeknownst to me at the time, I didn't recognize that that judge was showing me some compassion, just like Joanne Page was showing me some compassion. I can see these things now retroactively. I can see how there was humanity. And that has been the greatest issue in my life in dealing with people with humanity. That incident at fortune, that that Carlos Bujot was his name, his reaction to me, it was a racist comment. And I reacted to it just like I had reacted to being called the N-word at five years old growing up in Georgia. Having said all of that, I've come to recognize that the changes that that have occurred in my life are a result of the therapy, the research, the reading, and coming to recognize, seeing the behaviors of others. I know that. I am here. I am surviving as a result of the impact that Joanne Page first had on me with those unique balance words.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

And also It's important to say though, Eugene, Joanne opened the door, but you but you chose to walk in.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

And you have to give yourself credit for that.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Well, please understand that those words rest, I never forgot those words. Even though I was going in and out of rehab, I mean I'm sorry, um violations, those words stuck with me. And when I was, like I said, in 2012 and coming to fortune and beginning the therapy, the balance, I began to realize what she meant. And today, if I could see her, I'm sending her a hug right now in my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Yes, I can see that.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Because I said to you recently, next to Stardom Fortune, the best thing that you ever did was hire Joanne Page, the CEO.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

So let me uh Liz, when when you hear Eugene's story, it's you get cause and effect. You see the trauma, the child loss in the fire, the political things that made a difference, the anger, the self, all the internal things that come about. And for someone, someone listening to this, is it how do you, you know, where do you begin with this? But they come by the dozens. You know, I've always said you think you've heard every story, and then the next person walks in and you hear something that you never thought you would hear. How do you shield yourself from being overwhelmed by the pain of people? I've I've known Eugene a long time, and I have a great fondness for him, and I've never heard all the details. I knew some of it because he's alluded to it. It's very tough to absorb when it's somebody that's sitting right there with you that you care about. And you say, How did you how did I have ever done that? Could I have ever survived? And you get, you're in charge of a whole arena with the Eugene's, it was singular, and everybody else's story is different, but has a similar impact.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

One of the things I I recommend to all the staff that I work with is anybody who provides therapy should have a therapist. Um, because vicarious or secondary trauma is a real thing. I've yes heard heard stories um and I've for a while had taken them home with me, you know, and I hold on to some of that, and I understood that, all right, I as much as it also still kind of pains me, I I need to leave some of that at the office. I need to leave some of it there. Um and it's hard. It's one of those things because you do care, and you do and you find yourself wanting to think about, all right, how can I be more helpful? What are some things that perhaps I I can use? Some uh therapists also wind up, you know, using bits of themselves.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Well, is there a danger of over-identifying? Is that bad to identify?

SPEAKER_00 28:17

It's not bad to identify. Can over-identification be a little problematic? Sure. It's again about what you do with it.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Um, you know, as long as you, you know, like understand that, all right, this is where I stop and where the other person begins.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

Do you do you either of you, do you think it's possible for the kind of balance that Eugene found at the Better Living Center within the framework of our prison system and jails as it now is, is it possible to have do you think it's possible to create an environment of of uh wellness when everything around it is negative? In in the system? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

No. I I unfortunately don't think it's possible to create significant wellness. Um I think that there are some folks in the in the crosswall system that that do care, but I also think that this environment as it is is not set up to be beneficial to people.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Eugene, did you ever see anything in prison that lent itself? That what? That lent itself to healing.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

No. And as Liz was speaking, I saw thoughts about the prisons I've been in, and have been numerous. And I was just I saw thoughts about if I could only go to one of them at a group meeting like you have at the castle on Thursdays with the mental health group and sit down and speak to some of the prisoners. I would do that, I would volunteer to do that. I would try to use my experience to share with those prisoners the fact that one needs balance and to recognize it, to recognize that the behavior that led to their incarceration. I think about consequences now, and I would talk to those prisoners about the consequences of their actions, even after their release. Their consequences to their actions, just like when I was released, when the things that happened to me, I would also tell those prisoners to seek therapy, to sit down and talk to someone about the things that they're doing. In shine, inshine. I would say inside and when they're released, but definitely inside. To be quite frank with you, with the, and as I think Liz alluded to, to think that could happen now, the structure of I'm talking about the federal system, but also the recognition, what I recognize about the state system, it's not gonna happen. But I would still love to have an opportunity to speak to a few people because just like with Joanne and I, I'm just one person. If I could reach one person, change the world, it would be worth it to me.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Let me share with you both an experience. In the early 70s, men started coming, we were very small, and they said they were sent to us when they got out of Danamora from the Diagnostic and Treatment Center. And we it was a very different kind of man coming out, motivated, uh, with a sense of who they were, and it was extraordinary. So I wanted to go to the diagnostic and treatment center to find out what it was. Some, I don't know if they were, well, they had to be therapists and social activists from McGill University, and they were able to get grants and go into Clinton. And the first thing they did is they picked 30 men who had been recidivists and had crimes of violence so that they couldn't, you know, what you would call tough nuts. But they said insisted on one thing, that they be separated from the rest of the population, that they continually be together in a separate area. They ate together, they went into the yard together, uh, they were in the dorm together. And I started meeting men who had uh had an awareness of who they were, and many of them shared with me the great traumas of their childhood. And this was for three years, this went on, and the recidivis rate was practically zero coming out of Clinton, and they lost funding and they were not continued. And I said, but it's working, and and somebody said, now you got it. That's why it's not continued. They need people coming back, and uh this is over 50 years ago, and I many of them have passed away, but I still hear from a couple of the guys, one's in uh in uh Georgia now and one's in Arizona, still going, you know. And I said, well, there are things that do work. Um, and what we're doing at Fortune with the Better Living Center is it probably isn't as intense with you don't have them 24-7. They had them for 24-7 in an institution that's known for its violence and its uh uh being not anti-productive. So it it's it's a political thing, it's an economic thing, it's an employment thing, prisons not if you're too successful in not coming back. Yeah. And what do you have and with closed prisons? Um can we at fortune come close to that?

SPEAKER_00 34:16

We can try. And at some times, um I I'd like to think we could have a positive impact.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

Do people come keep coming back saying uh you th are they real are you ever finished with therapy? Or because life presents continual problems. Do you ever say to somebody you're on your own, go ahead, or do they make that determination?

SPEAKER_00 34:40

They would make that determination. Everything we do is client-centered, um, strengths-based, really just focusing on what does the individual in front of you need? And they, the clients we work with, are the ones that say, This is what my goals are for my time in treatment. Um, like Mr. King had just mentioned earlier, all right, I feel I have the balance that I need. Um, but there's also the opportunity to remain connected. And that's what also we never say you cannot come back and talk to anybody. We never say, all right, you can't.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

You never finish with life. So there's always, you know, always options. I always tell people that who knew there was a pandemic coming along and we're going to be isolated. So you never know. But can you say without giving names of of of an example of somebody came in that had overwhelming issues like Eugene and what happened?

SPEAKER_00 35:40

I had um there was somebody who was also involved in our care management unit, um, who also had some physical concerns, um, and he came in um in immense pain, physical and emotional, and would constantly um grumble and grouch and and really just was um just so unhappy. Um and he's been with us now for the last few years and engaged with the Better Living Center, um, engaged with uh the med the physical health care people that he needed to, and I see him in the hall now standing tall. Smiling. Smiling comes up and gives me this hug.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

The smile is a big thing because there are people that come in who I remember a young kid at the castle and he didn't know how to smile, and the most exciting thing was to watch him learn how to smile. I want to share with you a fortune story. In the early days when we were in 22nd Street, there were a couple of guys that came in, they were truly traumatized, and they couldn't communicate, and they would just sit on the couch. And I kept asking the guys, why did Al and Otis, why do they keep, you know, are we doing them any good? And I remember a couple of the counselors saying they feel safe here. And as long as they're here, they're not bothering anybody, and and and they were around, and I didn't see any great change in their lives. We didn't have, we didn't have the better living tenant. But something happened. Uh we moved, you know, I moved on, and about ten years later, I'm in the subway at Times Square, and Al, the man who never talked, I saw him looking mummified, who had never acknowledged me, and when he saw me, his eyes lit up, and he he came over, he embraced me and said, Fortune. And I I called people and I said, What happened? And they said, he made an association that there was a place that he could go to that was safe. And I said, You mean it's that bad that that there are not places that that they have to find safeness? That's that's that's almost terrifying to think that there are people walking around. And I remember in the early days here at LIC, we found a couple of young people were sleeping overnight. They locked themselves in the they didn't lock themselves, they just stayed in the bathrooms when when everybody left and slept there. And we asked them why, and they said they didn't want to go back to their neighborhoods, one didn't want to go back to the shelter, one didn't want to go back to the neighborhood, and they just stayed here. That's so then when you read in the papers that uh there's mental health people are being sent to the prisons, it's like they haven't even begun dealing with the issue. True.

SPEAKER_02 38:40

And I think you can Yeah, I uh as you're speaking, uh one of the major issues, uh one of the most important factors of my uh treatment was learning mindfulness, mindfulness. Now, I describe mindfulness, and I was saying this in in a conversation with uh a fortune staff member last week, that I stopped having thoughts. And he says, everyone has thoughts. And I said, Well, look, this is my perspective. I look at thoughts like cars going by. I choose which car I want to get into and which car I don't. And those that's I I use that metaphorically to speak about thoughts. I don't have thoughts, I see them. And I choose which thought I want to embrace and which thought I do not want to embrace. Now, Becky Paulitz and I began talking about mindfulness, and I recalled during prison that I had read so much. I had I did get an education in prison. And I'd read it. Reading is a healthy thing. Absolutely, absolutely. I'd read Herman Hesser Sid Arthur, I read James Plavell's The Covenant, I mean The Shogun rather. And one of the major things about the fact that I can look back at my prison experience and I recognize this thought. I did the time, the time didn't do me. And as you were speaking, as Liz was just speaking, being mindful of seeing thoughts. I stopped therapy not because I had to. I stopped therapy because I wanted to have leave that seat for someone who coming behind me who needed it more than I did. I realized that I have the value.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

Would you go back for a session if you felt you needed it?

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Oh, absolutely. But permit me to say, you just talking about how people we stay connected to fortune. I stay connected. I know you do. And I I still have my psychiatric nurse practitioner who provides my prescriptions. And I'm mindful of the fact that if I felt the necessity to re-enter therapy, the doors to therapy are opened at Fortune. And just as you were speaking about those two young men not wanting to leave, I said to my therapist, my last therapist, Molly Henisian, fantastic young lady and therapist, that as long as I am in New York, I'm gonna stay connected to Fortune. I jokingly say, I bleed fortune blew.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

We want to stay connected, but we also want to go home. It's stuff difficult to think of somebody that wants to stay here because there's no place that they want to go. That's what it is. That's very sad.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

That's that's sad. That's very sad. And as he was talking about uh the grant at Clinton, I was in Clinton once, 20 years old. I was there for seven months. Brutal place. Very brutal. And I was thinking about the fact that if those grants were granted, they had them at Attica, Green Haven. I know I They could have done it, but they chose not to. They choose not to because they need bodies. In the federal prison system, every day at 4 o'clock, there's an announcement over the loudspeaker. Four o'clock stand-up count. All inmates will stand for the four o'clock count. Many days I'll look at my what my clock and say, oh boy. Still stand up. I'll still look at my clock and say, You're standing up to count.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

Stanley Richardson says he's been home 30 years, and sometimes something happens and he'll say, he'll remember. Remember. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Permit me to say this. I said to you once as I was speaking, you the father of thousands. What you did when you started this organization. I don't believe that you knew the impact you would have on people's lives when you started it. But I just want to say thank you on behalf of all the thousands that you have helped, that you have changed their lives, the families of men leaving prison who have been able to reconnect with their families. The people, some of the people who work here. I was speaking to Wayne Friday. Wayne told me he did 30 years. And I look at Wayne now and I look at all the other people. And I recognize David. Your words are kind.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

I wanna I wanna you said something. Before that, I responded to when you said you pick the idea, you know, you don't have ideas, you pick I choose, I see. I think I do the I had never heard that before. But I have thought of uh we you we pick the people who we choose to be with, because in New York City there's a big variety of people, and some of them are very negative. Very negative and you have to make choices that are you gonna be around somebody that makes you sad or depressed? There's I have a friend she used to say, Oh, he's a crepe hanger, I'm not gonna be with him. Which meant that in a constant state of depression, and you have to make choices uh uh about everything. How does a therap do you consider you do you describe yourself as a therapist, Liz?

SPEAKER_00 44:49

I was a th I was a therapist.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

But now you're an administrator of therapists.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

So but you have to still I still meet with folks time to time.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

You have to you have to wake up each day and say, I'm gonna go and do the job. Is it sometimes seems so overwhelming like you don't know where to begin?

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Sometimes. Um but And then what do you do? I just pick a place and start. Um and I make myself the to-do list. I usually check in with the team and just kind of, you know, see how folks are doing, and then all right, when I know my team is okay, I can jump in and do what I need to do.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

This is important for me, you know. In the early days of fortune, I worked in the theater, I was from the suburbs, and I'm not apologizing for that. That was my life, and I entered another world through a plague. And I started meeting men who had experiences and backgrounds like Eugene, and I would go home at night and say, I couldn't do that. I I I had such um, I don't know if the word is admiration, but um I don't even know what it was. I didn't know how the Eugene Kings of the world could pick up and go on the next day considering what they had gone through. And in a way it made me stronger. Um, and I don't apologize for the fact that I didn't have that traumatic background. And and I'll share this with you. There was a man at the uh at the um castle last week, and there was a therapist, and she was talking about a program, and he said, uh, well, you've never done time. You have to have people in your program that done time because uh you'll never understand what we went through. So I said to him afterwards, Robert, uh that was very profound and very insightful and very honest, but I wouldn't write anybody off right away because you don't know what until you've met somebody what you can gain from them. And I've shared, and it recalled for me in the very early days of Fortune Society, I'm hanging out with five or six guys who did a lot of time, and I listened mostly or asked naive questions because I didn't know what they had all gone through. I'm hearing it. And Mel River said, Why don't you speak up sometimes? And I said, Well, I haven't had your experience. And he said, Well, we need allies. We need people who haven't auto experience. And then he said the most profound thing to me. He said, I don't want to stay in the world of a former prisoner. You're my bridge to the world I want to get to. And I said, Oh my God. And that stayed with me forever. You know, not apologizing, because I've heard people say, apologize, I haven't done time, and therefore I'm not, I'm not black, and therefore I can't understand you. None of us are anybody else. We are only ourselves, but we can be bridges to understanding.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

And that's important for at least also the staff that I work with, where we're able to say, I'm not gonna know exactly what it's like to walk in your shoes. Nobody is except for you. Right. And to acknowledge that and to understand that the person you're talking to is the expert on themselves. Not I can't tell Mr. King about himself. I can only say, All right, I'm here to help you get to where you want to be. And that's my goal.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

And Eugene, you mentioned two people who uh your therapist here and the doctor. Obviously, they did not have your experience, but in some way they were able to connect with you.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Permit me to say this as you were speaking about them. A smile came on my face. Okay. Becky and Dr. Toon. I was able to relate to them. I listened to them. I talked to them, they asked me questions, they had to be. But the most important thing is they showed me they cared. You don't find that in prison.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

So they didn't have to walk in your shoes. They just had to make sure they wanted to make sure your shoes were comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

And they cared. Just like Joanne. That she said that to me.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

I think that's a great way to conclude this, is because a lot of quote squares, us that haven't done time, uh constantly apologize. I've heard that, you know, I didn't do time, I can't understand. But I think that your experience with people, Eugene, who did not walk in your shoes were able to connect because they can't you saw humanity in them and they saw the humanity in you. And Liz Liz and Eugene, uh therapist, administrator, Jean, I don't like the word client, participant, well, um human being, uh, friend, all of that.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Permit me to ask Liz to if ever there's a group or there's a time when you might find my presence and the things I have to say beneficial. I don't know if you have my number, but get my number, and please call me because there's a part of me that wants to give back. I forget the Jewish term. I th she I forget what it's too much about paying or basically paying it forward. I would like to share some of my experiences if you will.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

Eugene, just telling your story resonates because people who were at a much earlier period in their transition than you are now would would benefit. Oh, that's that's even a better ending to make a shit. There's a word, a Jewish word that we a shittich is a matchup. Let's Christy, Eugene King, thank you so much for sharing.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

I appreciate the opportunity to show it.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Give me one more chance to try and make it right. Give me one more go. Let me see the light.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Thanks very much for joining this podcast. I'm your host, David Rothenberg. If you need more information or if you'd like more information about the Fortune Society, check out our website. It's quite simply fortune society.org. Lot of information on it, as well as all of our podcasts.