Reentry Law and Support

David Rothenberg discusses incarcerated and reentry law with Fortune's Chief Legal Officer Michele Weinstat and Senior Director of Compliance Jeffrey Wertkin. The cover the process of lawyer reinstatement, their roles at Fortune for those returning home from incarceration and the support Fortune offers.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hello, I'm David Rothenberg hosting this podcast, The Re-Entry Reality Check of the Fortune Society, a nonprofit organization which advocates for the formerly incarcerated and for men and women still in prison. We also provide multiple services for the thousands who walk through our doors each year. Thank you for joining us. One of the uh aspects of prison folklore is the jailhouse lawyer, uh, men and women who, while they're doing time, helping other uh people who are incarcerated with their legal issues. Uh, but there's another subculture, a very small subculture, and that is people who men and women who are attorneys who they're practicing lawyers who end up in prison. And two two such people are now staffed at the Fortune Society and our guests, Michelle Weinstein and Jeffrey Burgen. And uh I'm I'm I'm curious about uh uh two aspects. What as when you were doing time, where you were doing time and when you were doing time is the the the the the le your legal background surface that what became a factor, and then of course coming out and the that journey. So let's begin with Michelle that um you did time in New York. Tell us where you did time and r and where you were practicing before you went to to jail.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Thanks, David.

SPEAKER_05 1:44

Good morning. Thanks for having me. Uh I was at on Rikers Island for about a month the first time I was arrested. I was arrested for uh A1 felony weight of uh cocaine and and weapons charges on my first arrest. And you were a lawyer at the time. I was a lawyer. I had I had been uh corporate litigator with a a large law firm in New York uh city, and I had retired from practice after a mere two years uh with the idea that I would do much better selling drugs than than practicing law because I was uh I was in the in the grips of a an addiction that told me things that were obviously errant nonsense. And so I I when I was arrested, I was arrested on phase 15 to life in prison on my first arrest. And so I spent some time on Rikers and then uh got out on bail and then was remanded again with a an another uh couple of indictments, and so I spent a few months on Rikers after that until I was able to uh get out on a what they call a 2020 motion in New York, which is that they didn't bring the case to trial quickly enough. And so um I got out and was out for the rest of of the time. So I did Rikers Island.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Did you share uh with other uh people, with the other women that you had been a lawyer and was your experience as an attorney something that they wanted to draw from? Well, you know, in other words, did you become a jailhouse lawyer?

SPEAKER_05 3:22

Yeah, well, I wish I had a lovely story like that, but honestly, um I was in the midst of a lot of trauma and uh was more concerned about detoxing off of drugs and and actually had imposter syndrome even as a jailhouse lawyer than I had been doing corporate work and didn't know that much about criminal. Just I was basically a hot mess in in jail, and so while I would I would help people to some extent, it never got set settled down to that point where I was doing a set amount of time, I was always in detention and I was always going back and forth to court, and honestly, um I don't think I was a great service to the other people that were incarcerated.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

So you you really weren't a jail hassle in your jail experience. Where did you go to law school?

SPEAKER_05 4:11

I went to MYU. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

All right, um, Jeffrey, um when you went to jail, what what were you where did you go to law school?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

I went to Georgetown Law School. Uh I I grew up in the New York suburbs, and I went to Georgetown Law School and I decided I liked Washington, D.C., and I stayed. So I did about 10 years of corporate law, then I worked at the Justice Department for six, doing civil litigation, doing enforcement um work under the False Claims Act, which is like a civil statute. And then I went back into private practice. And it was uh at that time that I got arrested and I was sentenced to 30 months uh in the federal system. So I said, Wait, what year this was 2017.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

And when you went in, well, you did jail time and then and then prison to federal time.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Um yeah, so I I was actually um I was released on on bail, and so my first time that I went that I stepped through prison gates was um when I self-surrendered uh at the beginning of my 30-month sentence.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

In a federal force.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, I was in a prison camp down in Talladega, Alabama. Did uh other people know the other guys know that you had been a lawyer? Yeah, you know, I have a little bit of a different experience than Michelle. Uh I did say that that's that's what I I did. Um, there was um it was Talladega, Alabama, so there was a lot of people getting pulled from the Atlanta area. And so there were there were um you know white-collar business people, and I shared that I was a lawyer. What was really interesting about my time there is the the first step act got passed while I was there. I had been there just a few minutes.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

So much with the first step act.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Um the first step act was uh an act that um that uh was signed uh in the first Trump administration that changed uh some of the drug sentencing laws so that um you could uh go back and uh get your time automatically reduced based on what your sentence was. So if you were sentenced for crack cocaine and it was like a and it was sentenced at a certain level because it was above you know regular cocaine, um they they changed the law so that it reverted so that the penalties were even or closer for cocaine and crack cocaine. And that meant instantaneously all these people were now eligible for immediate release. Um and so did they understand the legal aspects of it, or that's when you came in? Well, so what happened was um you know, this is not just in Alabama, this was everywhere in the entire country, and public defenders were overwhelmed because now literally thousands of people were all, you know, ready to do it. But the problem is that um it needed to be adjudicated by a judge. So all these people, you know, folks who are in prison, they know exactly what their time is, they understand the sentencing guidelines better than lawyers do who are even out there.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

So they know the law. Did you find that other people knew the law or and and did you meet people who were, quote, not jailhouse lawyers but not lawyers when something like the first act came up? Were they did you consult with them or talk with them, or did they come to you for clarity?

SPEAKER_01 7:17

People under there were there were people understood their sentencing guidelines and they understood how sentences were were tabulated and everything like that, but in terms of the process and and how you go about presenting a motion, I don't think there was a lot of information about that. There was one guy who was a jailhouse lawyer, he had been a bail bondsman. And you know, in prison there's a whole economy, right? So it's like if you help me, you know, they would give the bail bondsman, you know, money or in this, you know, commissary or whatever, and then that person would help them write motions. Well, I stepped in and I said, you know what, I'm gonna help people for free, right? I, you know, I I'm gonna I'm not gonna So let me ask you, when you said you're gonna do it for free with the other guys getting what cigarettes and uh no, so there's no smoking when I was in the how were they um getting paid? Uh so you'd go to commissary and you could buy food and snacks and coffee and that became the wampum. Yeah, so like um mackerel, like fish, was like a each packet of fish was like a dollar, and that was sort of the currency. You know, five max, ten max is like the the fish mackerel, tins of mackerel.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Let me Michelle, is he's talking about a male prison. Is is the gender difference that vast, or is did you ag do you identify with what he was what Jeffrey was saying?

SPEAKER_05 8:35

Well, I mean in terms of the legal aspects, are the women as informed he he I yeah, I think that people are much more in crisis in a place like Rikers Island than they than than they are once they're already sentenced and they're in a prison and and so I just think that there was uh a lot more drama and a lot more people that were there for fairly petty things. Like a lot when I was there, there were a lot of prostitutes, a lot of shoplifters, and and that sort of thing. So it was a kind of just chaos that is a little bit different from what I understand that going to to prison is. But there were a few women there that were facing a lot of time, and I ultimately was able to bond with them to some extent.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

But was there a but uh was there a clarity? As Jeffrey was explaining, he said ever the everybody seemed to know uh what their sentences were.

SPEAKER_05 9:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

I don't think people Was it but a gender factor or the fact that it was jail and not prison that they were less.

SPEAKER_05 9:35

I am sure it was just the fact that it was jail. I I I would imagine that the women are just as knowledgeable in the women's prisons as they are as in men's prisons.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Well, back in not that you were that long ago, but there were less women that were attorneys when you uh when you started out.

SPEAKER_05 9:52

Now there are so many women that I'm not that old, Dave.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

No, but it's it is it is changing it is changing as it goes.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

No, but there were like about half of the people were women, I think, when I when I was.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Remember Ruth Bader once told us that uh Ruth Bader Ginsburg that when she went to law school, a law professor said you're taking up space that a man could be in. And that wasn't that long ago.

SPEAKER_05 10:17

Yeah, it was. I I mean I hate to I think to date you, David.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

But now about but now about 50% of the law students are women.

SPEAKER_05 10:25

Yeah, and same when I went to law school. But but I uh I certainly well, you know, I I didn't run into that many women who had white collar crimes, but I think also that's a difference between between federal prison and accounting jail. Yeah, especially in New York City jail. So um so I I think that there were so many differences that it was kind of kind of apples and oranges, but certainly, you know, women were trying to find out what what their cases were about and and you know how they could fight them.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Were the legal services good? Uh most of the women with legal aid, and did they did you feel that women were getting the appropriate kind of legal counseling?

SPEAKER_05 11:11

Uh did you? I I had a private attorney, and I think that that meant uh that I got much better uh legal help than than people who didn't. I never paid him, I have to say full disclosure that the poor guy never got paid. But because I was like, if he's around, he may find us.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Did women talk about their uh you know, in the chatter and the mess all around their legal situation?

SPEAKER_05 11:41

Women did sometimes talk about it, but you know, I obviously uh when you haven't yet been convicted of a crime, you people are you know, if they're smart, they're careful about what they say to other people, uh because everybody might be looking for a deal. So I I uh and and it seemed to me that you know I was always told that you can't believe anything people say in in jail. So, you know, whatever they said, sort of some of them, you know, I believed what you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

So you you never got off the rock during time.

SPEAKER_05 12:12

No.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

So this is a very interesting dichotomy because uh many people probably more people do jail time than do prison time, and they have uh their legal needs are very different. But you, Jeffrey, when you convicted, you everybody's looking for appeals or law changes, which is very different from people in a county jail who were and they lined up outside his room trying to get him to write motions.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Well, so that's what happened is is that people were reaching out to their public defenders and and not getting responses because these public defenders were overwhelmed. And somebody that I knew said, you know, and who knew I wasn't a lawyer and said, Look, can you just help me put this together? And um I'm like, so I bought a typewriter ribbon at the commissary and and sat down with him. And you know typewriter ribbon? Yeah, because there's no computers that you can use. So I know, but but the typewriter, you mean typewriters. Yeah, this is 2018. And so I bought a typewriter ribbon, and you know, people don't, at least, you know, where I'm at, you you know, you don't really share a lot about yourself. You know, you you you you kind of tight-lipped. And and I also was sort of an outsider. I was from the Northeast, I was educated, I was white, this is a major majority black prison in Alabama. And, you know, it was this was an opportunity where people come to me and they had to share what happened with them. They had to share their their pre-sentence report because in order to write a proper motion, you had to say, this is what's happened before, and this is where we are, and this is what the sentencing guidelines say, and this is how the law change affects it. And so I I helped this this gentleman, and um, you know, I I said I I insisted on not taking any payment, no tinfish or anything like that. And then just amazingly, like a week later, after he sent it in, he went home. Well, then everybody found out uh that I was doing this for free. When you were talking about the difference, the cultural, racial, and all of that, were they less forthcoming about their situation, or did did you have to counsel them to get trust and well I you know I would sit down, I said, look, you you still have to meet the guideline, and we have to put down on the paper, you know, the the there's five factors, and we just got to meet the factors. So you can tell me about it, or if you have your pre-sentence report, which is something that's in the federal system, and you know, they say actually when you arrive, don't show anybody your pre-sentence report, because it'll say if you cooperated, and that's another thing that you may not want to get out when you're in prison. And so, but people would share that with me because we sort of needed that information to write the to help write the proper motion. And so people would share, and and that just led to further connections. You know, I'm sitting and and I'm like, oh man, your your first conviction was at 14. You know, tell me about that. And you know, just opening up and sharing in a way that I normally would never do in the context, but we're in the library at an off time, sitting in front of the typewriter, and no one's around. I mean, there was a there was a person I knew who had a dollar bill tattooed on on his neck. And and I said, Oh wow, that's you know, we're just talking about getting him out of prison and getting him home. And he said, Yeah, my nickname was Dollar Bill, because when I was a little kid, I was really fast at counting dollar bills for my mom, who was a big drug dealer. And you're just, you know, and for me growing up in a you know in a privileged situation, just learning about people like that and and what they're exposed to, it was really it was an incredible experience for me. And then to be able to see people go home and and be part of that, you know, being a helpful.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

You were doing coming getting an education on criminal justice. Yeah, absolutely. From the from the other incarcerated people. So let's talk about coming out. Uh you're both lawyers, and then you come back to the world. How does the world accept what to and give us here? What year, Michelle, did you come out?

SPEAKER_05 16:05

And what oh, let's see. Uh 1985.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

And and what were what was your mental, physical?

SPEAKER_05 16:15

You know, I mean I was dispared because I had had a felony conviction, and I had I had won the first case and lost a smaller case or a plea bargain to the smaller case. And so I was dispared, and I felt like I was overqualified for any job that would have me, and you know, underqualified for most skilled jobs, and I couldn't do legal work. I I was unhoused.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Could you work in a law office and be a legal uh I mean do legal research?

SPEAKER_05 16:45

You you probably could have, or I would have thought too, and at one point I once I got clean, I was able to get a job at a drug treatment program and work in the in the law office, but then I was advised to not work in the law office because if I wanted to get my license back, I had to be showing that I was doing non-legal work as opposed to legal work. Because they don't want people who are uh disbarred lawyers practicing law under the table. So they want to make sure that there's a distinction between what you're doing uh then what you would be doing if you were a licensed attorney. It's actually worse than just never having gotten a license when you're just it would seem that the logical thing is that you would be keeping up on legal work.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Well, why why look for clarity? Uh so uh so what is the process that you uh had to undertake to get you because you are a practicing lawyer now. Right. How did uh how long did that take and what'd you have to do? Right, so you beside not work in a law office.

SPEAKER_05 17:49

Right. So I mean luckily I because I was a recovering addict by the time I put in my application for reinstatement, I had gotten a job in a drug treatment program and and did all sorts of work for them. Um so I had a a record of some level of accomplishment and then a lot of community service and the like that I that I kept a record of. And so I built up, you know, uh references and and a record of of sober living, as you might say. And after seven years, you're allowed to reapply.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

And who do who do you go to? Is it all on paper or do you appeal to it?

SPEAKER_05 18:28

No, you actually have a hearing before before committee members who then uh make a recommendation and then the appellate division has to reinstate you. Now I'm a little this is a long time ago, so I might not have it exactly right, but that's basically.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

But your experience is real, so it's um you you send forms you to the state?

SPEAKER_05 18:49

It it was way more than just like forms, like it wasn't like doing a motion like what what Jeff was doing to get people out where it was automatic once you you set forth the five factors. This was really more like you're going on trial to see whether you're fit to be an attorney.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

But at the start, is it a form that you have to fill out?

SPEAKER_05 19:07

Actually, it it costs a lot of money to to to get reinstated. So that, you know, people, you know, I mean, there may be some people who do a pro se, but most people who I have known who've gotten their licenses back were represented by a specialist who deals with attorney discipline. And in my case, I was very lucky because I was speaking at a panel at the Bar Association and some and talking about my story when I was disbarred, and one of the attorneys that was there came up to me and said he wanted to represent me pro bono. So that's the only reason why.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

So the cost is not the cost is not by the Bar Association, but the legal help that you need in processing.

SPEAKER_05 19:47

I think it's very important.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

But but the first step was the are you given a form to fill out to start the appeal?

SPEAKER_05 19:55

No.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

What what is the first step?

SPEAKER_05 19:57

I'm actually don't don't recall particularly. I think he put in an application for reinstatement would probably have been how it started.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Uh and then do they they send you forms or do you uh start with an interview? And who interviews you?

SPEAKER_05 20:11

It's really a much more formal process than that. It's really that they they're putting in a you know uh an application for reinstatement and you get scheduled for hearings and it's almost it's as formal as a criminal case.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

It's but who are you who's when you have a hearing, who who's hearing you?

SPEAKER_05 20:29

There's a there's a committee of attorneys that does the hearing. I and I I I feel like there was an ALJ that was doing the last one I was a witness at and an administrative law judge, but I I I Jeff is is squinting on this, so he might know better.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

The bar association will have a committee that deals specifically with the reinstatement. So every bar, every state has its own bar association, so the rules will change by basically.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Well, what's different from your situation? You were in Washington, D.C. Michelle was in New York City. Uh who did you go before?

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Well, you know, I haven't applied yet. So I yeah, I I came home in 2019.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Where would you apply? You're living now in D.C.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah. Um, you know, I will say that um I have not been focused, um I have not been laser focused on that process yet. Uh what I'm trying to do is what Michelle just said that she spent years doing, which was, you know, gathering references.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Maybe you can hire her to be your uh legal counsel to reimply.

SPEAKER_05 21:32

They were better. Because you know, I want to make a shit egg.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

There's there are there is some standard out there that that sounds very there's probably a lot of legal jargon words, but I think ultimately what it all boils down to is one word, which is trust. And you have to just show that you are trustworthy. Uh, and the bar wants to see that. And so I think that that that trust is something, just like you know, I'm rebuilding trust relationships with my spouse, with my friends, with my Six years.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Do you want to be a lawyer again?

SPEAKER_01 22:04

I hope to apply one day, yes. I hope to apply one day. But but I think that I just need I think time, you know, is is helpful. Long-term, you know, um trust.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

And would you apply in DC because that's where you were living? Or do you would you come to New York do you want to be in New York State? How does it work?

SPEAKER_01 22:24

And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

And if you get it in one state, is it good in all the other states?

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Sort of. I know I was a member of the DC Bar and the Maryland bar. And then you get automatically disbarred when you have a felony. Um so you know that I would probably think about going back to the places where I was already a member of the bar. Uh if you were gonna go to New York and I had never been a member, what I think happens is you actually got to take the bar exam in New York, and then once you pass that, you go in before your review committee, and then you have to an ethics committee. And then you would go through that process. Uh it wouldn't be reinstatement, it would be you know, just in you know, in the first instance trying to be led out.

SPEAKER_05 23:05

And that would be a crazy gamble for him because he's better off just going and getting reinstated. Because if DC's not going to take him, New York might not take him, and then he's already spent all that time and effort taking the bourg again. So so basically you go back, I think, to where you were admitted. And then he may not be able to appear in court in New York, but the kind of work that I do, you don't have to appear in court anyway. So it's you know, basically you you have much more freedom to practice here uh in in an in-house setting.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

From what you said, let so then the next stage. You both work at the Fortune Society. Uh as do you give legal uh I I'm trying to find out what your legal background does in the job that Michelle, what do you do while you're at the Fortune Society?

SPEAKER_05 23:55

So I'm the chief legal officer and I uh am in charge of everything from contracts to handling the litigate contracts.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Contracts of what?

SPEAKER_05 24:04

Well, we have what I think 129, 130 contracts at any time where we're we're contracts with the city, state, federal.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

A nonprofit organization having contracts on service.

SPEAKER_05 24:19

We um have a lot of uh employee relations matters where people might be concerned about discrimination or investigation, so we we deal with that.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Um but you don't handle criminal cases. Somebody on if somebody comes to Fortune and says I have a case spending, we would give them the number to legal aid or right. You refer, but you don't take on cases. Right.

SPEAKER_05 24:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

And and Jeffrey, what what is your title? So I was hired and to work in the compliance function, and I got promoted in August to be the chief compliance officer.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Now is that a legal to explain what compliance is.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yeah, it's not a legal position. Um and and I think compliance probably means different things to different people. We have auditors here that go ahead and review files and make sure that we're in compliance with the rules that have to, you know, that you have to follow. For instance. For example, like if if um if you have uh the Office of Housing says you need to go and um you know have certain type of intake form, you know, when you're when you're welcoming somebody into the thing and and you've got to maintain that intake form within the person's file as part of the contract that you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

You mean for because fortune has residence and that uh each building where there's a residence is a compliance.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Right. You so if if the um if if mock J says if the Office of Um Criminal Justice, the the Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice Mach J.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

I don't know all the initials.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Oh yeah, yeah. So if they give us a contract, there's a lot of you have to do A, B, and C. Okay. So we're promising to do A, B, and C. And then we have a whole compliance function that monitors to make sure we're doing A, B, and C. Because if we're saying that we're doing A, B, and C and required under the contract from the city to do A, B, and C, we better be doing A, B, and C.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

So a a lawyer is it it behooves fortune to have a lawyer, whether they're well, not a lawyer, but somebody who had legal background to do it. Could a non-lawyer do what you're doing? Oh, absolutely. In fact, I my mine is not a genius.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

He's like a genius. No idea what he's a genius. Well No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

But if some forget if you're not here and the and and you decided to run for president and Fortune had to hire somebody else, could could a person who had no law background do what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Absolutely. In fact, the person I took over for did not have a legal background. The art the former chief compliance officer was also a non-lawyer. But are there legal aspects of it that have to be determined? Well, here you know, legal when you say legal aspect. Do you have to call Michelle and say what is the interpretation? Absolutely. I call Michelle all the time. If there's if it even encroaches on any kind of legal question, I call Michelle because you know I need to get her her sign-off and her advice, her legal advice on things. But let me just give you a per example. You know what I'm doing this morning before our our thing was the governor passed a new Governor of New York. Yes. Governor Hutchell passed a, or the the state legislature passed a uh law that says that all city contractors have to have a gender-based violence policy. What does that mean? Uh it just means a policy to that you're not going to discriminate against people who've been victims of of gender-based violence. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

So we mean people are dis people are discriminated against because they've been violently. I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

The victim becomes Yeah. So we can't treat someone differently because they were the victim of gender-based violence. Does that happen? Well, New York decided New York State decided to pass a law about that, and they said that if you're a contractor, which we are, we have to have a policy, and there they put a policy, uh a kind of a model policy up on their website. So my job as a compliance person is I'm gonna take that, put what that they put on their website, make sure that it fits our what we're doing at Fortune, and then we have to put we have to um put it up in a certain place and put it up on our website, and then certify that we have a gender-based violence policy and that we are following.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

I want to ask we'll come back to both of you and your law things, but I want to know about this law and from a female perspective, Michelle. Are women denied job opportunities because they were victimized?

SPEAKER_05 28:37

Well, I think a lot of what happens with these policies where they say don't discriminate, they basically put some affirmative action requirement on an employer. Like, for instance, there's a lot of uh I'm not sure how much this law is is different from uh a lot of the some of the laws that are in place now to protect victims of domestic violence. But many women and or other victims of domestic violence have lost jobs because they have to go to court to get an order of protection where that they're supposed to be at work, and the employer won't let them get off from work to be able to go to court to protect themselves or they're choked they have to move into a domestic violent shelter and they need time to so it's not the fact that they were victims, it's their absenteeism, which is why they're well I don't think we want to call it absenteeism under the law. So that's the whole point. Yes. So other things I think would be like if they if they're if their abuser shows up at the workplace, people have been fired uh because of they don't want to deal with the exactly so you can't do that. So things like that, although I haven't read this particular law in any depth, but it but but that sort of thing. I would like to say, just shifting a little bit, like one of the things that Jeff did a fantastic job on is that he basically wrote our entire entire personnel handbook, which is like 120 pages of material that uh guides everything that human resources does and that serves as a reference book for employees. And so it does require a lot of legal knowledge, but just like working in HR does, like you you know that you know what kind of sick leave people are entitled to, which is based in the law similar to the domestic violence policy. So um you know what kind of investigations people have a right to in a workplace, and and just a myriad of things that people uh need to know as employees. So it was about a it was a book.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

So when they're so a nonprofit organization like Fortune Society, when they establish policy, they need to talk to you too because they're they have to make sure that they cover all the legal ramifications.

SPEAKER_05 30:40

Yeah, and and and they sometimes look to us for common sense too, because we've been around a while and we and we kind of, you know, people look to us for just the wisdom you get from being in in and around this area for for a long time. And so we try to also just, you know, give common sense advice as well.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Have you met other have other people come to Fortune that have been admin lawyers or want to be, you know, one of the first people that ever came to Fortune, this is in the very early days, Walter Strauss, uh who I met in prison, said he wanted to go to college, fine go to college. Then he said, I want to go to law school. This is 1972 or three. And I said, I don't think you can become a lawyer because you have to go through the ethics committee. And he said, Let's deal with that when it happens. And as it turned out, the chair of the ethics committee was on the Fortune Society board, Alan Buttonweezer, and he passed. And ten years later he called me and said, Come to court. He became a judge, the first formerly incarcerated person to be a judge. Do we get a lot do we get people here that want to be lawyers who have felony convictions that come to for counsel?

SPEAKER_05 31:51

I mean, I've certainly uh sometimes employees will be in that situation too, because you know, ha more than half of our employees have been uh previously incarcerated. Uh so I have definitely heard from some of them about wanting to become lawyers.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Um Do they go to law school they have to go to law school?

SPEAKER_05 32:10

You know, I don't necessarily I'm not necessarily that enthusiastic. The same way you you responded to um to Walter Strauss, I think his name is, is the same way I tend to respond to people as well. You know, that you know, I I do know of cases where people have graduated from law school and then it took years to get admitted. So that people have to understand that they're choosing a profession where it's going to be a little bit more difficult to use your degree and so it's still difficult if you're not going to be able to do that. If you have a felony conviction to become a lawyer, you I mean I know people who have have done it and have gotten past the ethics committee, and I would imagine it's a little bit easier now than it was, you know, some years ago.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

I always said the logical answer to that, certainly, and with people running for office is well, you get your prison pr out of the way before you became a lawyer and went to prison. Most of them do it after they get arrested. So but before we l lose both of you, you're an author also, Michelle, and we have to share. You you write under you write ferocious crime crime-related books.

SPEAKER_05 33:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Under what name?

SPEAKER_05 33:19

Well, I I write under Michelle W. Miller mostly, but I've also written one book under the name Michelle Weinstattmiller. But it on uh you can see everything uh at Michelle W. Miller.com, but I I've written a couple of crime thrillers, Widows in Law, Gone by Morning, and a zombie book, The 13 Step Zombie Recovery, which is if you've ever been involved with recovery communities, you might find it funny. And then I, you know, on uh my latest book is called The Lower Power, which scared you.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Scared me to death. Does you do uh as a uh uh f writer of fiction, does your legal background play a role?

SPEAKER_05 34:00

Well, you know, I do tend to have lawyers and I do tend to have I always tend to have these jail and prison scenes in my books. I I I don't do it intentionally, but I guess there's a lot of trauma that has to be worked out. So I end up finding I I don't think that there's been a single book that I've written where there wasn't some kind of scene where somebody was in jail, and usually unjustly in jail for something. So I seem to need to work with the book.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Which prompts a final question, and that is I saw a screening the other night of a devastating movie called Sixteen Years, the story of Jeff Deskovek, a man who was did 16 years and the DNA proved him to be innocent. What is the state? At the end of it, they showed that there are 2,600 people who have been uh released with new evidence that were not guilty. Do you have an assessment from the number of people that have been incarcerated? Is the criminal justice system failing and that a number of people the numbers are high of people who do time that it shouldn't be?

SPEAKER_05 35:09

I mean, I think it's always been the case that justice is an unequal, that you know, I'm I'm fairly clear that if I hadn't had some amount of privilege, uh race and color? Race and race and race and race and class. Race and class. Yeah, and the fact that I was already an attorney at the time. Um I'm pretty clear that I probably would have done 15 to life.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Give you a black.

SPEAKER_05 35:39

The evidence was suppressed. Um, would somebody else get the kind of representation that I had? My attorney was a former law part partner of the judge. And I'm talking New York City, I'm not talking about some backwater place where everybody knows everybody. It was in New York City, and so you know, I think that I did get a lot more sympathy and um a lot higher level of of legal work. And I think a lot of people, I pled to my last case, it was really, I think, an unwise plea bargain. I should have probably not done that, and frankly, it was after my lawyer quit. I was like, okay, I don't know who this knucklehead is that they've appointed for me. I better plea. And and I think that that's probably what happens to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Well, did either of you play a role in your own case as uh lawyers? Or I I was the person who's you had lawyers, but did you have a lot to say to your lawyers?

SPEAKER_05 36:36

Oh, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

I mean I mean more so than the average person would.

SPEAKER_05 36:40

I would think so.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

I mean, if I got busted, I think I would uh I'd be at the mercy of the lawyers' decisions because I wouldn't know where to begin.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Well, honestly, I you know, when you're the when you're the person who's the target, it's very hard to think clearly. I I have to say that I could not understand how that police officer threw me out of the way of the door after I told him he couldn't come in because he didn't have a warrant. So I never understood that and I thought there must be something that I'm not getting. So that's the kind of way the thinking. But you weren't thinking as a lawyer, you were thinking as a as a as a person who's going through a tra uh well, no, it's actually as a person who's going through a trauma and who's just about to lose their entire life, and it's very hard to be like sort of, you know, detached and objective about your own case, at least at the beginning. I I suppose after some time. I don't know, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Did you Oh no no, I felt the same way. I was a complete m hot message.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

Were you an observer rather than a participant in your legal?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Yeah, I was in a you know, altered state of mind and I was uh unable to contribute to my own situation.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Before we leave with Jeffrey, would you uh would you agree with Michelle or do you have a different perspective?

SPEAKER_01 37:51

If somebody came to you that had through fortune or who had done time and they wanted to become a lawyer, uh Well, you know, it takes a a a leap of faith to do that. If if someone who who has never been a lawyer comes to me and says, This is what I want to do, um, I've I know of three or four people who have successfully done that. But you are taking a risk because you have to go and enroll in law school for three years and pay tuition. And and maybe you get a break on tuition or maybe you don't, then you have to study for the bar exam and you have to pay to take the bar exam, and that's another several thousand dollars. And then you have at that point you put yourself up in front of an ethics committee and several thousand dollars to take the bar to poor reports. Well, yeah. Are there any poor people that become lawyers then? So it you know, an a bar loans? Yeah, a bar review course um costs thousands of dollars, and and you know, if you can pass the bar without taking a review course, then then you know, God bless you.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

So then class and class and race becomes a factor in who becomes lawyers, too, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_05 38:55

Oh it does, but you know, I think a lot of people what it what it does also does is that some people come out with a lot of student loans and some people uh you pay for the rest of your life. Yeah. Right. And if you don't get your license because you have to get up this steep hill to get your license, then you're in debt and you don't have a way to earn a living. And besides anything else, what a lot of people don't realize is that in unless you come from a really good law school with really good grades, you're probably gonna make less money coming out as a first-year lawyer than you did before you went to law school. It is not as high-paying a professional.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

And you go to legal, we hear for that from legal aid people all the time. And that's my other they probably have a high percentage of law school grades.

SPEAKER_05 39:37

When I got reinstated, I went to work for uh the Administration for Children's Services as a as a frontline attorney, and you know, most people could not afford to live in an apartment on their own on the kind of s salaries we we got. So, you know, I I did get a taste of that.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Well, you're both very enlightening, but I'm slightly depressing.

SPEAKER_05 40:00

Well, here this is we're so happy.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

This is the thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

I mean, one of the reasons why I'm not really laser focused right now on getting my license back is because I work at Fortune doing meaningful work that's challenging, that's that's non-legal work, but that makes a difference. And even if I got my license back, I wouldn't want to leave Fortune. I wouldn't want to change my job. Maybe I could do some more like you know, legal stuff for Michelle, but I would just stay where I'm at where I am right now, making a difference and trying to help people. And you know, you asked the the thing about being incarcerated, the thing about going through the prison justice system is that, yeah, it's terrible to be incarcerated, but the harder part is coming back. The harder part is getting ethics boards to give you a license and not just to be a lawyer, but to have any licensed profession. It's hard to get an apartment when now everybody does background checks. It's just that's a universal thing. Uh it's just very, very difficult. And I know where I came from. I had the support of my family, and I had uh, you know, some savings in the bank that I that I could rely on. People who don't have that kind of support don't have to be able to do it. Which is which is most people, and they face those barriers. 50% of the people coming home are homeless.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

Right. And I came home homeless. I didn't have any any place. And I, you know, although I had family, my family were civil servants, they didn't they didn't have a lot of money, so I I came home to a lot of the challenges that that Jeff is talking about. But I would say that I'm gloriously happy at Fortune after I was. Can I just say yeah, because I practiced law, I've practiced law for 30 years since I got my license back, and I'm like old as dirt, like uh I have to say, I'm dating myself. But you know, I and when I got to Fortune, I still it was the first time I was really like, oh, this is why I went to law school, because it's such a satisfying kind of work, and the people are so amazing here, and and like the love is palpable here, and you just don't get that, you know, anywhere. And I my husband, when I come home and my my kids, they see finally that I have a life that's really worth living. And and because of the experience that Jeff and I have gone through, we're able to help in a way that other people might not be able to. And I think of ourselves and myself as helping to save lives. I don't think of it as just being a job.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

I I think we save lives every day in a in a literal sense, and and so I'm like pleased that I got my license back so I could play a part in what fortune's doing because you're like, We're the support that everybody needs, and if they don't have it from their family or friends, they can they can come to fortune. We can be their family.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

You've both given me the conclusion I was seeking because I I now I'm no longer depressed. I'm helpful by what you're gonna. Uh Jeffrey uh giving Michelle Weinstein. Thank you for sharing. Enlightening and not depressing at this moment.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Give me one more chance to try and make it right. Give me one more go.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Let me see the light. Thanks very much for joining this podcast. I'm your host, David Rothenberg. If you need more information or if you'd like more information about the Fortune Society, check out our website. It's quite simply fortune society.org. A lot of information on it, as well as all of our podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Give me one more pole. Let me speak straight from