Rebuilding Bonds: Navigating Parenthood and Reentry

Host David Rothenberg spoke with Tiffany Vulcain and Lymus Rivera to discuss their experiences as parents involved in the criminal legal system. They reflected on their relationships with their children upon being released from prison, the challenges parents face coming home, and reentry resources for parents and their children.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:02

Hello, I'm David Rothenberg hosting this podcast, The Re-Entry Reality Check of the Fortune Society, a nonprofit organization which advocates for the formerly incarcerated and for men and women still in prison. We also provide multiple services for the thousands who walk through our doors each year. Thank you for joining us. When we talk about re-entry coming out of prisons, there are so many aspects of it, but one that's rarely discussed and people don't think about it if it hasn't affected them greatly, is that there are men and women who are incarcerated and come out and have to resume a life with children, their children, and how do you go from incarceration to being a parent after a period of time of absentia? Our guests, Tiffany Wilcane and Limas Rivera, both experienced this, and we're gonna why don't you uh each tell us what the situation was when you came out, and then we'll we'll d delve into the beginnings. But uh Tiffany, when you came home, who who was waiting for you, or were they waiting for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yes, they most certainly were waiting for me. So I'm a mom of two boys. Um initially when I went inside, I only had one child and I was pregnant. So I actually gave birth while I was incarcerated. And so I hadn't had experience as a mom of two, especially a mom of two who children were in school. And when I came home, it was very new to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

How old were they?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

They were four and seven.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Okay, now Limesh, when you came home, how old were your kids?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Um my daughter was twenty.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

I think twenty-four. So you did a lot of time then. Yeah. All right, so so we you came home. Now we'll go back to the to the beginnings. Um we'll start with you, Tiffany. When you went away, you said you were pregnant with one child and you had the other. Was one of the obvious things while you were away, you did federal time, I think you told me.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

While you were away, did you have contact with the children? Was there continuity, or when you came home, or were you a stranger to them?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I wasn't a stranger, thankfully, but because of my own behavior, I kept going into a special housing unit, also known as the SHU. So I would get visitation taken away from me. So there were times where I did have regular visitation, and there were other times where I had gone a year or two without seeing my children.

SPEAKER_04 2:48

Where were your children while you how how long were you away?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

For five years.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

And who took care of them while you were gone?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Um, the family of my husband at the time.

SPEAKER_04 2:57

And so was there while you were locked up, was there any uh program or counseling on how to reunite with children and determining what their emotional and physical needs were?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

My God, I wish. There's nothing. Nothing, absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

So you had to invent it for yourself?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, I had to find support once I was released.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

And where did you find that? Did you find support?

SPEAKER_00 3:24

I did. I'm actually really resourceful. I found the agency that I'm still connected to, Children of Promise, New York City, that supports children and families, particularly children who have incarcerated parents.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

And how old how old are you? You've been home how long?

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Uh 10 years in next month.

SPEAKER_04 3:38

So your children are is it two boys?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Two boys.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

And they're how old?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

13 and 17.

SPEAKER_04 3:44

And they're and they're with you?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Unfortunately, my 17-year-old is actually incarcerated. He has a few open cases. And my youngest one, the one I had while I was incarcerated, he's doing well.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Did you have any relationship with him when you came out?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I did. We had a very good relationship. Uh he I think resents me. It's just a whole bunch of backstory. Well, that's a key word.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

He resents you because you weren't there when in his formative years.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Well, he's never said that, but that's my assumption.

SPEAKER_04 4:17

That's your interpretation.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 4:19

And at what age did he start getting into ch difficulty?

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Maybe about three years ago. He's been getting into difficulty because he's just that kind of kid. Um, but that didn't interfere with our relationship until he started getting in in trouble with the courts. That's when our relationship took a turn.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

So you said that while you were away, his father's family took care of him. Are they still involved with him now?

SPEAKER_00 4:41

So maybe I wasn't clear. That wasn't his biological family. That's my younger's biological family. I was married to my youngest son's father. So those were not his um biological family members, but they took care of both of my children.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

And who, when you say they, who was it? It was Modern Technology has just come into the taping.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Um I'm sorry, can you repeat the question, David?

SPEAKER_04 5:10

It was uh what was the question while you were away? Uh who in the in the family that was who were who were taking care of them? Who were they?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

So it was my husband at the time, his aunt. She is more like his mom, though.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

And she has sustained a relationship with the two boys?

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Sh they resided with her for the most part.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

Still?

SPEAKER_00 5:35

No, they've now they were residing with me. Once I came home, I took food.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

No, but did she maintain a relationship and did she act as a bridge for you with them?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

She did, but it's very interesting. She actually, I didn't know how to be a mom. So I ended up having a child welfare case. There was an incident that happened in my home involving the dad. Um, they took the kids away. She was an advocate for my kids, and I I didn't understand it at the time, but she felt like the kids weren't safe with me, or you know, that the kid what had happened didn't happen while I was incarcerated. And so for two years they stayed with her. Um, well, the youngest one stayed with her, and I had to fight for my kids back.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Sheri Kamberg and we'll come back to you. Limish, when you Limish, when you came home, you should your daughter in the twenties. Um that's a different was she were you living with her when she when you came home? That's a whole different ball game, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:30

No, I wasn't living with her. She was living with, you know, she was grown. She was living by herself.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

And what kind of relationship did you while you were away, did she visit you?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Did you the first half of my incarceration? I unfortunately, you know, had the support of my wife at the time, which was her mother, and my mother, my grandmother. And they always made an effort to bring her up to see me. Um she was in my wife's belly when I came into prison, so.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

She she uh your wife was pregnant with your baby, so you didn't you didn't have a relationship with her before you were incarcerated.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

No.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

So all you had with her was uh her visits.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Her visits, they had conjugal visits, you know, trailer visits she would bring up sometimes. Um but once I got separated from my wife um at that time, my grandmother was the major supporter in bringing my daughter up.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

But would you consider your relationship with her good now, or is it strained, or is it uh that the word resentful, uh Tiffany said resentful was is there do you feel any of that?

SPEAKER_01 7:39

I don't know. I had a good chance to speak to her. Um still fresh for me. You've been though my daughter passed away in May, that is 2025, so it's been I'm sorry. That's very tough.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

I'm sorry. But when you when you came home, you've been home about ten years now. When you came home, uh you had a new relationship that was created while you you met somebody well who was visiting and you had a relationship and you had trailer visits and she became pregnant. So you you came home to those babies? And how many were they?

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Well, fortunate for me is three, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:23

And they spent and they were visiting the whole time. They were visiting. But it's not the same thing as being at home. Uh when you came home, how did you did did you have any preparation for being daddy?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

You never prepared, you know, no matter how much, you know, you take classes. There was a class that did come in um there was a class in prison? There was apparently classes um, you know, sponsored by by um Osborne that would come in.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Um It wasn't by the prisoners, an outside agency that came in.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Outside agency they came into Otisville. That was the only time I really had that type of experience. But most of my you know, my ability to be a part of their life was uh, you know, was fostered by the relationship with their mother and you know, people that we cared.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

How old are they now?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Well, my my daughter, the passive age, she was 30 and 29.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

And with the the three children you had while you were away.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Um you have Serenity, that's 13, going on 31, and uh Lima's age is turned nine on February 4th. And you live with them? Yes. And the relationship is uh it's healthy, it's growing, it's learning.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

13 is not easy under the best of circumstances. No. What what prompted this discussion, and I want to see if it makes any sense to you, I was talking with a woman who when her husband when her husband went away, her children were two and three. When he came home, they were nine and ten. And he immediately thought he was going to assume parenthood. And the two little girls who were at seven years without him in the house said to their mother, we would he was suddenly giving orders and being f uh the the daddy, he thought. And they resented it because they both said, Mommy, uh, we were doing fine without him. Who was this stranger? Yes, as far as they were concerned, who was this stranger telling us that? And that's very rare that the kids are able to put articulate it, so she was kind of lucky in a way. But do you feel any of that that uh the word was resentment before, but um i i how do you claim parenthood when you're you've been absent and how do they and do you discuss that with your children at all?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

It's interesting that it's interesting that you bring this up because it's something that I see across the population of parents here at Fortune. Um so many moms talk to me about how they can reconnect with their children after being uh incarcerated for so long. Their children often resent them. I would say orders are not the first point of entry. Discipline, for me, I don't think is effective. I think building a relationship, therapeutic support, earning that respect back, open communication, transparency. Um, I think when you come in as an authoritative figure after you haven't been in the child's life for so long, it's counterproductive. Kids don't want to be told what to do, right? Kids need consistency. And so first you need to earn the trust to show like I'm here to stay. And that's something that I was very fortunate to to pick up on right away. I didn't immediately just take my kids. I actually moved in to the home that they were in so that they can see me coexisting with the caretaker.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Although we didn't have the Was that a strategy or a necessity?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

It was a strategy on both of our ends because I had had given birth while I was incarcerated. I didn't just want to take him away.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

So did you talk with their aunt who was t uh who was their custodi uh custodian while you were away? Did you talk with her while you were incarcerated about a strategy?

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

This is something we came up with. You both agreed on it that you would come in and and she was she was the decision maker until you till they got to know you.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

We didn't it wasn't established that she would be the decision maker. We didn't talk about it that far. But she was willing to open my home. She'd had this kid before since he was born. Yes and then, you know, it was kind of hard for her to just give him up as well. So that was the compromise.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

Is is the first step, and and Lamus, I'm I'm gonna be asking you the same questions, is it that before there's discussion, do you start taking them places like to a movie or to the park so that they see you as a companion or a supporter? I'm I'm not quite sure what words there are when you're establishing a motherhood role. Or fatherhood role in my missus case.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

So I had to be creative because we don't have much money coming home. So that community that I mentioned before, Children of Promise, they had a lot of like kickball games and a lot of community stuff that our children and I were like my children and myself, we were able to have activities together in the community, fun, celebrations without ha necessarily having to spend money. When I did end up finding employment thanks to fortune, and I had money to spend at that point, which was maybe a few months later, I was able to take them to movie theaters and you know, amusement parks, all kinds of stuff. I'd buy them gifts, and slowly I earned their trust.

SPEAKER_04 13:49

And Lima, so you came home, their mother had been with your children, with the two that that you live with now. So there was so you moved into the home where she was the parent, and you uh you this man that they visited occasionally became was her partner. How did you go about that?

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Well, Serenity was the one who Serenity is the name, not a state of mind, but the state that the name of your beautiful girl. Yeah, my 13-year-old. And then Lyman was born after my release. So he seen me from the you know, from birth. So I seen both sides. You know, my my point of view was like, you know, I missed out on my old daughter, older daughter's life, so I I felt like I had another chance to serenity. You know, sometimes we come in and we have the best of intentions to try to make sure everybody's safe and alright, you know. Um that they won't experience the same type of you know, neglect or trauma, you know, that we experienced growing up, and then you find that, you know, life, life, life has a way of making its way through it.

SPEAKER_04 15:09

So after one event, I had dinner with you and your wife and the two children. I would have my assessment just on one meal, and that's not a whole lifetime, is that they were typical typical kids. They were silly, they were cute, they were smart. Yeah, they're beautiful. They they but what I was impressed most, I can't remember if it was your boy or girl, they kept wanting to show you something in their film on their phone, and the most important thing was daddy, look at it. So uh are you aware of the fact that I think it was your son, and and and even in the car, uh every everything he said was directed to you for your sharing with him whatever he was discovering on that phone that never took never got turned off. But but but but you that was different than Serenity because she was she was a child while you were locked up. Is there a difference in the in the two?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yeah, it's a big difference. A big difference. I see the difference. I see the emotional difference. I see, you know, when do you feel that there's a need for any type of correction or there's something that goes wrong? I see Serenity turning more towards, you know, her mom's because she's more dependent on her mom's. And then I see, you know, Lima's, he's he's he's like the balancer. He he just tries to make sure that if he says I love you to me, he wants to say I love you to his moms. Yeah you know, he has that that consciousness, but I but just having a conversation with my wife about all three of the kids, she says, I see the difference in Lima's in comparison to all of them because I was absent for the first two. So my third child is like my fourth child, really.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

You're you're a subjected sociologist would want to come in and study because you have all the variations right there. Do you do you feel that you have do you in dealing with your daughter is 13, 13-year-olds can do a lot of things that are annoying and objectional. Do you feel that you have the right to uh be a parent or do you defer to your wife, the mother, or do you and if you do, how do you approach that?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Well, I think I have the responsibility, first and foremost, to let her know if she's going in the wrong direction or she needs some direction and leadership. My responsibility is to be intentional and direct, and not direct to the extent when I'm reprimanding her, but direct to the extent where I had to learn her language. I gotta be able to be sensitive to whatever she's going through. Sometimes just being around her, just listening and slaying in the bed with her. You know, something that lets her know that I'm listening. And that will create an opportunity for her to just want to open up. But if I come in, remember, these are years without a male figure, years of, you know, receiving discipline from her mother. So it's just more gentle, more, you know.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

Does she ever talk to you about your being incarcerated, or do you ever talk to her about things that well she knows, you know?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I used to go into details as to what happened.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Not why you were there, but why you weren't away from her?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah, she actually wish, you know, I was there, but she and I came home when she was three already, so.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

And 13-year-olds have their own agenda dealing with rather than daddies. That's part of it. Do you have that? Have you ever had a discussion with your kids about while you're away? Do they bring it up or do you ever bring it up? And and if it's brought up, is it is it in anger or is it in qu in questions?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Um, I let it come up naturally. So I remember there was one incident where my son, who I had while I was incarcerated, he actually said, My picture mommy. You're my picture mommy. So I was like, why does he keep saying that? And I realized that his aunt had a picture of me that I sent home from prison on her dresser in a mirror. So I said, I'm your real mommy. I'm not your picture mommy, I'm your real mommy. So there were times like that where I would have to like reaffirm. Um, and then also I told him that he was born, he didn't know he was born in prison. Well, or while I was incarcerated. So I actually released a book, and when I released the book, I didn't want people to tell him. So we set up this therapy session. My kids had always been in therapy as soon as I got out, and we talked to him about it, and I asked him, did he know? And he said no. And he was like, Cool, can I tell my friends?

SPEAKER_04 19:45

Tiffany, you and and Limas, you both work at Fortune Society, which is a program working with people who are formerly incarcerated. Have you or have you considered bringing them here? Or is that have have you been advised whether they should come to Fortune or shouldn't?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

My son has been to Fortune several times. And he participates in the holiday party.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

And he knows w all the people he had that's the younger one or the older one or both?

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Both of them. Um, but the younger one more so has engaged.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

And and what is that journey like for him?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

He's such a healthy kid.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

I think that What grades he in now?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Right now he's a senior in junior high school, so eighth grade.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

So and he has friends and he's active and things.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

He's doing well, amazingly well.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Um Limas, have your kids uh if Serenity's 13 and Limus is how old?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Nine.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Nine. And they've been here? And do they know what the population is? Yeah. Do they ask about people? Why were they why are they here?

SPEAKER_01 20:47

They don't ask specifically like what's you know um the population, like, you know, were they in prison? They don't ask stuff like that. But you know, I always say that, you know, I um my my my for some reason for me I'm saying like I care about the people I serve. So I always feel like if I care, then they're able to be around my family. So I always bring my family to all the events. I bring them to the holiday events, the block parties. You know, they they know everybody pretty much. You know, they're gonna know you, they know Stan, you know, because I feel that they need to know this, and I and I see the compassion in their heart. Like sometimes it could be somebody that's walking in the streets, and for some reason fortune has a way of having that effect on people. You could be walking down the street and somebody comes and say, Hey, you from Fortune. And my kids, they're already used to it. They're already like, oh, are they proud of that or embarrassed? Yeah, they're very proud.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Um how do how are they doing? They're in uh your daughter's in, I would say, junior high school at this point, and Lima's is grammar school. How are they doing? Um Well Do they have friends? Do they f have friends that come to the house? Are they social?

SPEAKER_01 22:06

It's so much, you know, it's you have an idea of how things go, but there's so much that happens, you know.

SPEAKER_04 22:13

Um it's a tough one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah. My son, my son, Limas, he's um he's a great kid, like very empathetic. But he has to wrecks, right? How's he doing in school? Well, sometimes it affects him in school, but he does good, he's a good kid. Um Serenity, you know, she's going through changes, hormonal changes, a lot of stuff. You know, as of recently, we've been dealing with a lot of stuff with her. You know, she's been cutting herself. You know. You have a vision. You're gonna be out here, but you wanna know something? I'd rather be out here and deal with everything that's real. You know, I'm not gonna paint no pretty picture, but I know that with the right support, the treatment, you can make it, you know. And for everybody who's out there, don't think that because you see individuals, you know, you know, helping you, they don't have stuff going on too. We make it because we believe in in our family, we believe in in the the spirit of resilience, and we and we fight to do right for our family.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

This is one of the tougher subjects, and it's it's so it's really discussed. I know that you have groups at at Fortune, uh Tiffany, and and the women bring it up, but uh it's not in they can't talk about a lot of these feelings when they're outside of here because they're not with people who are uh I think what the my uh my assessment is that most people fear judgments by outside people. Absolutely. And therefore what what they find at Fortune is a cocoon where they're allowed to express the kind of feelings that Limas is sharing right now, that uh this is from the belly stuff. Yeah, for sure. For both of you, do you d find with a lot of people that you work with here at Fortune that they do they bring up problems with their kids?

SPEAKER_00 24:18

And yeah, I actually started an initiative. This year will be the fourth year. We call it Parents' Day. When I came here, I'm like we're not we're not acknowledging parents, you know. Even if we don't have custody of our children, we're still parents, we should be celebrating for it. And so my leadership team, they love the idea, and you should see the tears, the panels, the stories. We talk about parenting from prison, what it looks like uh transitioning back into the community as parents. It's a powerful event that has grown over the last um three years. And so, yeah, it's it's a it's it's needed space and it's very much so a gap that is not being addressed.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

I I've met several people over the years at Fortune that don't have haven't gone as far as you both have, uh and their situation is that their children, if they are 18, 19, cut their parent off, and they're and and the parent has gone through changes and they're not the same person that they were when what got them into trouble. But the child, who's now 20 or 25, only remembers the absence and doesn't want to have a relationship, and it's very tough. So do you when you meet somebody, or I'm i'm I'm assuming I'm not the only one you've met people who uh have children who want to or or and other situations where the mother or where the other parent doesn't want the child to have any relationship, how do you how do you share that with people? Do you share your own experience or do you just my experience, you know?

SPEAKER_01 25:55

I was absent for a long time. You know, I I tell them you could use different different things to, you know, create a a link between you and that child, you know, like journaling, you know, making um collages, you know, in the absence of not being with their if you want to help out financially, you know, put a fund aside for you to be able to give it to them. So is it that they does present itself? You want to have everything right then and there, not to prove that you wasn't there or that whatever. It's just that you love that child, you know. And yeah, you know, sometimes circumstances take you in different directions, but you know, you could make a way out of you making that connection as best as you can, whether it be like I said, through journaling, through writing a letter, um, through saving money, through you're saying that that child knowing the absence of their presence, you still have them there.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

But Lamas, what do you say to somebody as a situation I recently where he said his grown daughter has said, I don't want to know you. I don't or not, I don't want to be in your life because I'm always disappointed.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

And you you apologize and you try to make right, be consistent.

SPEAKER_04 27:07

But is there ever a point where you say I have to go on my life without that child?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

You if you if you expected to live, you have to have to live knowing that her decision has to be validated by you accepting it. You have to accept what that child feels or that adult feels because of the absence of your presence. You know, there was a time I let my hair grow for like like 15, 16 years, and it was a promise that I made to my daughter while I was incarcerated. And I said something about her mother, and she said, you know what, act like I'm dead, you know? And that hurt me while I was inside. And I said, you know what? I gotta make it out. You know, I can't lose my mind. I gotta make it out so I could show her that I love her. You know? I cut my hand, I put it away for her, and I said, You, you know, this is your my promise to you. I put it to the side, and I said, I have to live on now. And then when the opportunity came again that we reunited, because she was the first person to come see me when I came home. You know, I was able to show that with my journals. I mean, I got stacks and stacks of journals, and I say, yo, here, and pictures. So for a person who has that, you know, resentful child is hurting, you you got to accept that. You know, you just gotta just make yourself available and just be, don't get stubborn and say, I don't want you don't want me in your life. I don't want you in my life then. You know, don't do that. You just apologize because in reality you left and she's been waiting for you, or he's been waiting for you to come back into their life.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

Well, this is not television, so I want to alert everybody now that my Mr. Terra is now, you look like a medicine there in your businessman, working at the temple. Yes, and it's like in that. You look very square. Thank you. From Delaware.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

I want to say David, I'm actually experiencing that right now. What? Well, my son doesn't want me in his life. He's 17.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

He's 17 year old and he's incarcerated.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yes, he's incarcerated. And I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I think it's what works versus what doesn't work. Each family's different. Um, from my family. You write him. I write him.

SPEAKER_04 29:13

Does he write back?

SPEAKER_00 29:14

No. Do you call it He calls me and he's angry, he sees me in court. What she doing here? And I continue to show up because he didn't ask to be here. I made some mistakes. I have to take accountability for that. He's still a child, and I'm responsible for him. And I'll be supportive until I can't.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

You know, you said he's still a child. One of the important things to learn that I've learned at Fortune, we have an alternative to incarceration program. And most of the uh young men and women are 17, 18, 19, and they're fully grown adults physically. But when you get to know them, they're kids. They're kids. And their decision making is, and so you're at that situation, both of you with children at an age where they, and you don't have to have been incarcerated. This is across the board for anybody who's ever been a parent, that children reach a point, certainly when they go through the hormonal thing, that they think they're an adult. You can't just say you're not. So how do you guide them through that terrible period, that awful period of teen years that everybody faces?

SPEAKER_00 30:20

I think you're doing it with it.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

You're the unit 13 now.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah, but I think you just said it. You stop giving directives. You start guiding. I'm doing this with you. It's listening and also finding, I utilize their interests. So whatever they're interested in, use that as a as a way to connect. Um and also look, this is the outcome of this. Look, this is what can happen. You make your choice now.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

I'm trying to remember, it's been so long since I was a teenager. And and but I don't think things change from century to century. And I think that young boys, I can't speak for young girls, that there's a fear about because there's things that we didn't know, but that because we the assumption is we're young men, and you both have boys going at that age now, that they can't uh verbalize what they're they don't showing fear is uh is unmanly. So but the unknowns are kind of scary because there's a lot of unknowns, and you have to you sort of bluff your way through like you know everything. I mean, when you watch young kids, that's the noisy and loud that's covering up their fears. What uh uh uh uh Limus Jr.'s what, nine now, right? Well, you're getting the best of it right now, because in about three or four years it's gonna be very tough. Because uh, you know, he wants to be with you every moment of the day, and then about three years from now he's not doesn't want to he's not gonna want to, you know, get out of the way, Mister. I have things to do. You have to prepare yourself for that, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah, of course. You know, I prepare myself with just, you know, like they say, you know, cherishing the moments that I do have now, and I know eventually they'll reflect back, he'll reflect back and be like, I remember, you know, and just making myself available. You know, he likes he likes Fortnite, he likes um skating, he likes football, he likes, you know, all these things that are interesting to me, you know, because I'm looking at it from his lens, you know, and it's because I'm making myself available. Um sometimes I I I gotta be mindful, you know, because sometimes I could be there and be on my phone, be talking, and he'd be like, da, da, da. And sometimes I might be like, Limus, what's going on? And Limas is calling you. I'm like, oh well, yeah, you're right. I'm sorry. So if I'm not careful, I was it will slip me by.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

We haven't discussed the word love yet. Love I think young people know when they are loved, uh a hug doesn't hurt. But there is something about the way you look at the kid or the way you relate, that they know once they have a love, don't they? Uh, even they're going through all the craziness, they know that at the core, mommy or daddy is there for them. Is that do we talk about that ever? You have the groups with the women. Do we ever get to that?

SPEAKER_00 33:23

I mean, I do workforce development. Um now starting parenting, so ask me next year and I'll be an expert.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

And there's a lot of guilt with the women who are mothers who have been away, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Yes. There's a lot of guilt.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

It's not very useful.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

But I'm I'm more so focused on the therapeutic support. A lot of these moms are trying to get custody back. So maybe love is something we need to talk about, but I'm I'm more so like, what support can I provide for this family? This family needs support. I'm heavy on the family therapy. Kids need to express themselves, but they need a safe environment.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

So Well, I'll share a story with you. There was a woman who came through fortune, and her, like you said, her great battle was to get the custody, and we shared with her that journey, and she got the custody of this five-year-old boy. She came to visit us about eight years later, and she walked in, she said, I'm not in trouble, I didn't get arrested, I didn't get high. And well, yeah, why are you here? And she said, 13-year-olds can be a lot of trouble. And I said, Welcome to the world. And she said, I I want him to know how much I love him. And I said, Well, have you said that? That I mean that the whether you've been incarcerated or not incarcerated, that journey for teenagers is horrible for the parents as well as for the kids. It's overrated because we always say the the youth is such a wonderful time, but there's so much unknown and so many fears and the bodies changing, the It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

I had to actually read, I didn't know how to properly love my children when I came home. I didn't know how to show them.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Do you know how to properly love yourself?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

I didn't. But I read the five love languages of children, and it opened up a a new world for me. I said, okay. And I started asking my kids, one of the things in the book, one of the something in the book highlights is, How do you feel loved? How do you know I love you? And the kids will tell you. So my son would tell me, you tell me every day. So it lets me know words of affirmation.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Have you ever heard this uh thing that if you're on a plane and they have trouble and you have to get your mask and you're with your children, don't give the children the mask first. Before you put the mask on yourself. Because if you're not taken care of, you're not able to take care of the children. I think that's that can be used in every aspect of life, that if if you're not positive about who you are, you're not in a position to be uh the parent that you want to be.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

100%.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

I know this too, but you know I learned to my wife a lot, like even with not being able to care for herself, she cares for her kids. You know, it's just something that it's beyond words the way they dig deep.

SPEAKER_04 36:22

Well, that's why people hug because they don't the words are not there, but the hugging is. The hugging says a lot. Do you hug your kids?

unknown 36:30

Yeah, my cat's.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

Well, you're big, you s I hope you don't squeeze too tight. I gotta be gentle with Serenity, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

I gentle hugs. You play fight with him? Huh? I play fight with him. I play fight with both of them, but you know, less with her now. She This is tough for you talking about it, isn't it, Limas? Because everything is happening now in real time. A lot of the stuff I'm talking about is happening now in real time, you know? It's not something I could go back and talk about. But when I when you asked me to come, I I asked myself, what am I gonna am I gonna be vulnerable?

SPEAKER_04 37:07

But it's okay to be vulnerable. I know, but this is stuff that's like Are you talking with anybody now about it? Are there family counselors? Do you go to family counseling?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah, we started family therapy, you know, we gotta take my daughter to to get a mental health assessment, you know, and all you don't want to you don't want them to experience this because you want to protect them. But these are the realities of life that you know you want it's like you get the test first and then you get the lesson later, you know, like they say, and you're seeing her go to that hurting.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

I wish I could give you a hug.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

I just wish I knew more.

SPEAKER_04 37:55

But the journey is part of uh part of life and and the fact that you're you're facing it and talking about it. Most people, Limas, don't deal with it. They bury it and they walk away and hope that it will go away on its own, and it doesn't. It takes emotional commitment and involvement, and you're making you're taking those steps. That doesn't mean it's gonna resolve itself immediately.

unknown 38:20

Of course.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

But it's not gonna happen without involvement.

unknown 38:23

Of course.

SPEAKER_04 38:24

Commitment.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

We be doing everything we can. Like I said, we're going to therapy. When I leave work today, we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_04 38:31

When you say we go, is your wife and you, or your wife and your wife. And your daughter also. And she's open to it, your daughter? Or she resists? Uh she's open. She's a good girl.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

She's I know she's a good girl, but that's emotional stuff. This is some stuff I don't know. You know, you could you could you could.

unknown 38:53

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

But there's no you want, you could do everything you possibly can to try to help them, and they still have their own life, their own world, their minds.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

They're another person. You can't they can't be who you want them to be. They are who they are. Yeah. And that's uh I think that's one of the most difficult parts of parenting. Yes. Is is the realization that this is a full-grown, full bloom, not full grown, but a full-bloom human being. We see kids as an extension of us, and they're completely different, like separate from you may have the same nose or eyes, but that doesn't mean you have the same needs and hopes and dreams and fears. The fears are a big part of it. Well, this is more emotional than I thought it would be, but I know it's a subject that that's really uh on the nerve fiber, and I think you're very bold and brave, both of you, for sharing with it Tiffany and and Lima. So thank you for being part of our little podcast. Maybe the comforting thought for you both might be that I don't know if anybody listens. So we may be talking in a vacuum. I hope people are listening. If you are, you might want to uh tell us, respond to the feelings that have been expressed so honestly by Tiffany and Limus about the difficult subject of reestablishing contact with your children. And you know what? You you're not just talking for people who are coming out of institutions, talking for anybody that's ever been a parent. Thank you both, Limus and Tiffany.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Thank you for having us. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Give me one more chance to try and make it right. Give me one more go. Let me see the light.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

Thanks very much for joining this podcast. I'm your host, David Rothenberg. If you need more information or if you'd like more information about the Fortune Society, check out our website. It's quite simply fortune society dot org. A lot of information on it, as well as all of our podcasts.