Bottle Rocket with Alena Sycheva Episode 44: Mark Nussbaum | Leafs Changes, Management & NHL Draft

Mark Nussbaum returns to Bottle Rocket for Episode 44 as we break down the latest Leafs news, management decisions, playoff reactions, and possible draft scenarios. We also discuss Toronto’s direction moving forward and what changes could still be coming. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah hi everyone welcome back to Bottle Rocket I'm Elena here with Mave and Jerry and today we're welcoming back one of our favorite returning guests Mark Nasbaum. We've got a lot to get into today. Hi Mark, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Great Elena, how are you?

SPEAKER_04 0:25

Very good.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

I want to hit him with this. Uh the last time you were on, I don't know whether you remember, but uh the Maple Leafs look like they might be a contending team. What happened? Sum up the disaster in your words.

SPEAKER_05 0:45

So I think the last time I was on was February time, Alina, is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, so maybe I think by then already we were ready to throw the towel in. I believe I was an advocate I advocated for selling of the deadline. So I'm not personally surprised about what occurred over the I guess following weeks and the end of February, beginning of March into April. But I was like really at that time, it wasn't there wasn't really much optimism from a fan base that probably could have used it. I felt that um a lot of things went wrong at that time. I felt that Coach Barube lost the room. Austin Matthews got injured slightly thereafter as well. Um, William Neelander was not playing a committed 200-foot game. And when you're you know your two best players are injured or just not as committed as they probably should be to the hockey team, generally things don't go well. That's besides the fact that our roster that was iced was not a roster that was ready to contend for a playoff spot, playoff spot. So like I think a lot of things went wrong. Um, I think that coach lost the room. I think the leader of the team wasn't invested. I think the, you know, the second best player on the team wasn't invested. Um, I think, you know, injuries obviously didn't help either. But when things like this occur, you're generally just not going to see a successful run. And we did it. The last time, at least in any optimism, was kind of going into Christmas time around that time when we won nine of 11 or 9 of 12 it was. And people were like, oh, maybe they found a spark, maybe this is it. But uh since then, and it's just it's it's it hasn't it was just never it. And I believe I was a I was a proponent of selling at the time in February. But to answer your question, Mabe, I guess is it's just coach lost the room, best players weren't invested, injuries didn't help, and the team just wasn't good enough from top to bottom. So that's where we got to where we are. And before I give the floor back to you, Mabe, I want to apologize publicly to our good buddy Jerry about his Canucks and the laundry. I feel terrible for you. I really do. I really do. I'm a buddy who works for the Oxford Canucks, and um, I think everybody was rooting for you guys to just get a high pick. Obviously, I'm ecstatic as a wee fan because we were really in trouble and we got really lucky with God's grace. But I want to apologize to you because this is a big piece for us that we desperately needed. You know, what I arguably more than you guys, just because we don't have our next two picks. So but, anyways, um I feel bad for you guys.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

I don't buy I don't buy this uh coach lost the room. Alibi. How do you know the coach lost the room? What the room is there, how does he lose it? You don't lose the room. The guy is this is a Stanley Cup winner for crying out loud. He doesn't lose the room. You don't know that he lost. What's the evidence that he lost the room?

SPEAKER_05 3:39

May that's an excellent question. In my humble opinion, when your coach talks about a certain style of hockey he wants to play, and the players on the ice are not playing that style of hockey, to me, that is enough evidence that you lost the room. And Coach Barube, in his introductory press conference two years ago, lately said that he wants his team to play a hard-nosed game, be a hard team to play against, and win battles. And we weren't any of that come February and March. So when you're not anything that you're that your coach described the way he wants to coach, I believe that's enough evidence to show that you lost their room.

SPEAKER_04 4:13

Mark, where were you when the Leafs won the draft lottery and realized that they had a chance to draft McKenna?

SPEAKER_05 4:20

So I'm currently overseas in Israel, um, doing a semester abroad over here, and I'm playing hockey. Um so I was actually in my room at four in the three in the morning or whatever, 2.45, 2.30, somewhere between 2.30 and 3. And I was doing bananas with somebody from Canada who were also here with me on a semester abroad. So it was it's it was pretty crazy, it was pretty surreal. Um and I think it just changed a lot of things after a really tough Monday with that introductory press conference.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Do you think uh Gamin McKenna truly a franchise-changing player in your eyes?

SPEAKER_05 4:58

Or people are seeing that's an interesting question. I think there's two parts to it. Number one is that um I think going the NCAA route really brought the hype down on him because he just wasn't as he wasn't breaking records the way he was in the W. But I actually think in the long run it's gonna be way better for his development. I think as a winger, it's very hard to change the direction of a franchise, but there are a few that can. Uh, you know, Nikita Kucharov, David Posternat, Patrick Chain. I think he has a chance if he really, you know, works hard in the gym and builds up his body a little bit to be that type of player because the skill, the raw skill is there. Um, but I think the problem is now Leaf's Nation tends to make assumptions on players pretty early. And McKenna might need a little bit more time, especially if Austin Matthews Reeves, and he doesn't have that number one center to play with. Um now, if he stays, that conversation is very different, but I'm sure we'll get there soon. But in my opinion, I believe he has the potential to be a franchise changing player. I I think that the the term generational talent nowadays gets thrown around way too much. Um, you know, every player is suddenly every for you know, every top three pick has the potential to be a generational talent. Because Malcolm Salabrini, when he was being talented as a prospect, was not a generational talent. But then he came into the league, and look at him now. You know, Team Canada just announced he'll be, you know, captaining us for the world championships later this week, with John Tabaris and Ryan O'Reilly serving as the alternates. So like I think that the concept generational gets thrown around. I think the potential's there, but I think we have to give him time because becoming a very player is a process. You can ask Nathan McKinnon, right? His rookie year at 62, 63 points, and then he had a couple iffy years, and then he found his own. I think we're seeing a very similar trajectory with Conor Badard. I think not everybody's Matthew Schaefer or Matt Lut Celebrini. And I think it's there, but I think it takes time. And I think it really matters who this new Leafs management group, who this brass, surrounds himself with. But yes, to answer your question, I believe the potential is there.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Okay, so Steve Simmons, one of the most reputable columnists on the continent, asked 20 reputable hockey people what they thought of the uh new uh management, whatever you want to call these guys, group is, and 19 reputable guys rejected them in one form of another emphatically. How do you go? How do you support the fact that they they brought this group in where there's so many, so many good people out there?

SPEAKER_05 7:35

Maybe that's a great question. I happen to love, as I wrote to you last night, I love what Steve Simmons did. I think reporters have to ask tough questions. I think that's their job. I think today's day and age, unfortunately, all media and sports and music and really everywhere in the world has become so soft. And I believe I'm a little bit, as a even though I'm a younger guy and a younger kid and a young adult, I believe in the old school approach of like, you're allowed to ask the tough questions because where that's what tough questions are for. And that's why you got the job to be general general manager of the leaves. And I think that I happen, I don't want to delve too into this just because um, on a professional level for myself, I don't want to get myself in trouble. But I think John Scheik is a very smart guy. I've heard a lot of interesting stories about what he did in Arizona, and different sources have told me different things. But I will tell you one thing in the line of business I want to go into slash the business that I am in and the career I am trying to pursue myself, I believe that people should have to earn where they get to. People should have to earn the right to see what they are. And I, in my just understanding, John Shaika, when he got hired in Arizona, came from nothing to something. Um, he wasn't didn't start as a scout, he didn't start as an AGM, he wasn't a forer player, he wasn't, you know, a rising star. He just kind of came out of nowhere. And then he obviously had a disastrous ending there. And the NHL fine the team has stripped him of picks, and and he also made some interesting moves. He made some good moves, but some not great ones too. And he just suddenly got this job at Toronto. So I don't love the fact that he hasn't earned anything, and I believe that everything Steve Simmons says probably has true, uh, probably is truth to it because Steve, like you said, is one of the most reputable names in the game. And Steve is somebody who comes across as hard as as, you know, he has tough questions, but he's an honest and he's a lot of integrity as a person. So I agree with everything Steve said. I think he asked the right questions. I don't love the answer Keith Pelley gave. We discussed this both times I was previously on the show. The lease organization laughs account lacks, excuse me, accountability. And I don't think Keith Pelley has brought in that element that he probably should. Maybe he doesn't have it himself, maybe he does. I'm not going to question him as a person, but bringing in a guy like John Tchaika definitely raises a lot of eyebrows because he made a lot of mistakes. He has a very interesting reputation amongst the other 31 general managers of the National Hockey League. That being said, I am somebody who believes that second chances are deserving. I believe John Thaika is a very smart man. I believe he's very well spoken. And I do believe he does, now that he's hired and being, you know, now that he is the general manager of the Toronto Bay Bleaves, he deserves everybody to give him a proper chance to evaluate talent, to retool this roster, and to see what he can do. So to answer your questions, Mave, I believe that John Tcheka, I believe the past is the past. I definitely have questions in myself. But as a person, as a human being, I believe second chances are important. And I definitely will be giving John Tcheka my second chance. I believe he's smart, I believe he's well spoken, and I believe he has the potential to do the right thing. Do I can I see a scenario where it turns into disaster for sure? But that's where I believe Matt Sandeen comes into play. And Matt Sandine, obviously May have, I'm sure you remember him, but Matt Sandeen, I really need one, two, one or two things that he brings to the table for the Toronto Maple Leafs. And one is that he has to bring back the pride, the honor, and the courage it is to dominate Leaf. I think that's been lost over the years. I think we've seen that with the way the Leaf stars have negotiating their contracts, the amount, you know, milking out every dollar. If people really appreciated being a Toronto Maple Leaf, I think these things wouldn't happen. And that starts from the top of the organization. And we're hoping that Matt instills that in our organization. And I also want him to bring that accountability that I was mentioning earlier. I believe Matt's is a hard worker. He's a leader. He knows what it means to win the blue and white and be successful. I was gonna say win, but he didn't win a standard cup, but he definitely won playoff rounds. And he knows what it means to bring success, success to a city that is starving for it on the playoff level. And I believe that hopefully, I believe and hope that the vision of Teet Fally is to take this combination of passion, of hard work, of somebody who knows what it takes to win in a city that, you know, is is is harder to win in in a sense, because there's so much pressure, with a guy who's very smart and sees the game in a different lens, and bring that old school approach of, you know, the old hockey eye along with the new analytical approach, combine them together and hopefully make something very successful. Do I believe it'll work? I'm out I hope. Well, can I guarantee it? No. I think there's a bigger chance Scaven McKenna's a generational talent than John Scheiker and Matson Dean continue together, you know, for the next decade or so. But at the same time, I wanted to give everybody a second chance. I hope Matson Dean stays in the long run. I hope John Schiker can prove he can stay in the long run.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Okay, you gave a you give us you're giving us a big filibuster, okay? First of all, it was a dumb move. Don't tell me about uh he did some good things or blah, blah, blah. He's a guy, it's like comparing a guy who's 60th in scoring with McDavid, who's a proven guy. There are so many other good people out there. I don't know why they ever settled on on this guy. As for the uh Sandine, he's like a cheerleader, nothing more, and I I don't I can't believe these guys are gonna be successful compared to the truly competent, experienced guys who have no black marks against them that that were out there. Beats me, and obviously it beats a lot of other people.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

What role do you guys think Sandin will realistically play in the organization? Symbolic or he genuinely is going to influence the culture?

SPEAKER_02 13:29

I just told you, he's a he's a cheerleader. Do you think these players now who have agents they listen to their agents? They're not gonna listen to this guy, and hopefully, uh they're probably gonna can Ruby, right? He's gonna get fired. So it's gonna depend on who the coach is and whether they, you know, they're gonna listen to this coach. Also, it depends on whether there's competency in this lineup. Is it not true that Austin Matthews wants to get the hell out of here on another team? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_04 14:03

I crossed that way.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

He wants to get out of there. He's but probably went to his agent and said, make it get me some out of here. He sees why would the captain of the team in a situation like that say something as negative as this at a critical time? If he may if he really cared about the heat, he would have shut up. He cares about Austin Matthews playing in a more healthy situation than this.

SPEAKER_05 14:33

Meeve, I just want to say again, I said something. Uh I know I gave you a little bit of a filibuster, and my apologies for that, guys. But I just on a professional level want to be a little bit careful about what I say. But Mae, if a lot of what you said in terms of a hire, I agree with. I think there is a lot of other very smart, right hockey people out there. I just don't want to get myself in trouble. So I want to be able to balance those two concepts. I agree with you. If I were in the shoes of Chief Pelly, I believe that I would have hired somebody else. It could be Scott White, et cetera, et cetera. I also don't believe Chief Pelly's worthy of being president of MLSE. So this is all different conversation. I don't bel I personally believe that every since he's gotten involved, it's gone downhill and he's not great on a professional level at a press conference. He reads off a paper, and that to me is something also like how do you, as president, I don't want to get stuck on this point, but if anybody watched the introductory press conference, there were two people reading off a paper, and there were one that wasn't. John Chaika and Keith Pelle are reading off a paper. How do you walk into the introductory press conference and Keith Pelley, this is his job essentially? He went all he's going all around these hires. Matson Dean spoke from the heart, but the other two were just like Keith Pelly, you can see him clearly starting his press conference, reading off a paper as if like this is a presentation in seventh grade. And again, I don't want to go so far into this because it's a sensitive topic and I don't want this to bite me down the line. But Meath, I do very much agree with you. I would have went a different direction, uh, but I do believe in second chances. So I am going to give this a second chance, but I also do agree with you that this is not the smartest hire, in my humble opinion. But I'm willing to give Chief Pelle and I'm not seeing a chance here, but I don't believe in their success um down the line. I don't think this is going to be successful, but I I hope it is, and I hope to be proven wrong. And I I I you know I'm rooting for the best for everybody involved, but you know, just the way, yeah, uh yeah. Uh there was one story that really sticks out for me that that I think Simmons reported on. It was just that when Chaika got fired in Arizona, Billy Armstrong, who was assistant GM at the time in St. Louis, came in, and he comes into the front office, you know, he comes into the team offices in Arizona and he goes to uh Chica's desk and he sees six computers there. And he's like, oh, this guy, you know, he's using six computers. Wow, you know, I only need one. And he turns on five and a six, and they weren't working. Um, so clearly they were there just for show. I don't know if that story is true or not, but it sounds like it had a credible source. But whether it is or it isn't, like if it is, that's horrible. And if it isn't, I feel bad that they were framing Tchaika like that. But regardless, this is a very polarizing hire. I believe that Barube will keep his job, actually, just because I don't think there's enough time. I don't think the coaching carousel is great out there. Bruce Cassidy is out there, and I believe he's an excellent coach, but I think Shaika's gonna want to find his guy. He might give runaway to Barube, because I believe Cheika has a couple of years before they ever look into seriously firing him if he has fired up all fences.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Let the guy from British Columbia talk, will you? Come on, Jerry. What do you think? Tell us in British Columbia ease.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Well talking to everybody in the cover, and and we all agree that Mark rid the uh NHL draft lottery. We know it was you, Mark.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

If you want to get in trouble, you're getting him in trouble now.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

What's up to it? How did you do it? How and why did you thank you, Mark? But you know what? Um I I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't think Gavin McKenna is gonna be that guy. I I watched him a lot at Penn State, and I know he was probably the youngest guy on the ice most of the time, but but he didn't stand out, not at all. I mean, there were so many times that he was not even the best player on the ice, and it just you know, he doesn't have great speed, he doesn't have great power, he doesn't he's not big, and he he you know, he doesn't have a great scoring touch. What he's got is great vision and great hands for you know setting other people up. So, you know, I I I'm not a big believer in him, and I think Toronto and San Jose will see it too. And I I'm firmly believe that number three, the Canucks will still get stuck with Gabin McKenna.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

That's key. This is the key issue so far on this show. I believe, like Jerry, that this guy is a uh virtue of press clippings and nothing more. They gotta they gotta have somebody they're picking as the number one, so they go with this guy. And uh I I think he's gonna be he'll be uh if he stays on the team, he'll be a third liner. Or they'll push him, push him on a second line, and he'll fail.

SPEAKER_05 19:26

Oh boy, that's a hot take.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

There's actually a debate uh whether they should keep him or consider trading him for immediate help, get uh defensemen instead. What do you think they should do?

SPEAKER_05 19:39

I think there's many ways to go with this pick. First of all, Jerry, I want to tell you I apologize for uh rigging the lottery. The reason I did it was because I knew that we could sell more McKenna jerseys in Toronto and Vancouver. But that would be better for the market. Um but I will say that I think there's a million directions the Leafs can go. One is to keep the pick and take McKenna. I think there's people in that organization that are gonna want to take Stenberg too, because you might be more than H already. I think there's, and then obviously there's the third way, which is trade the pick, get more assets, because the Leafs are in big trouble. Because if Austin, I knew we didn't get here yet, but if Austin Matthews wants to leave, you trade him now. The issue at hand is we our next two picks are unprotected first-round picks to Philly in Boston. Um, so we don't own our two picks. So the Leafs are obviously trying to convince Matthews to stay, and they're gonna overpay free agency on some players, which they finally have the luxury of having Cav space. So that's why I don't believe they're gonna trade the pick, because I believe that Austin Matthews says, listen, you gotta take McKenna or Stenberg, probably McKenna. And I've now I have a legitimate first-line winger with me that I lost Martyr. You know, I lost that playmaking player. Again, Nice is an excellent player, but he ain't Met Smarter in terms of his vision and his creativity. Um, and I believe that Matthews that helps a little bit move the, you know, I guess move the tide in a positive direction in terms of their long-term relationship. But I I do I do see a scenario where, or I guess I do see a way they can trade the pick. It might be like very smart to do, but at the same time, I just don't think you can afford doing that because you don't want to be bad next year because then you don't own your first round pick, and the year following you don't own your first round pick, and Austin Matthews is under contract for two more seasons. So I don't see a scenario in which we trade our pick. Um, and I I I see a scenario unless Austin Matthews really wants to get traded, and then they can really blow everything up.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

What's gonna happen is the guy, Matthews has a Hollywood agent. Big, big, big time agent, a couple of other guys on the team have um he's looking at this situation and he's saying, My guy Matthews is in his prime now. If he stays in what could be a hockey hellhell whole next season, it'll ruin his career. They're gonna. Try to uh get him into a a town like LA, uh, Chicago, New York. Get him out of Toronto. I I can't see him him him staying there. And uh as far as uh, you know, we don't know who the coach is gonna be. The coach is gonna have a big effect on what happens to this rookie. So we'll just have to wait and see. Maybe can I ask you one question? Go ahead. What are you waiting for?

SPEAKER_05 22:28

I know I couldn't hear you say go ahead. Sorry. I I don't know, like this is an interesting point that I was talking to somebody about yesterday. Like, Austin Matthews the last two seasons has not been the elite player he once was. Um and I I know he's supposed to beat his prime, but he hasn't scored goals or produced points or produced offense the way he did the previous seven, eight years. So like I know you mentioned prime, but like again, I'm not doubting him as a player. I think he's a wonderful two-way player, but he's not a in my opinion, he's not a top ten player in hockey right now.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

So what? The point is he's gotta get out of there. We know what we we see what he's not done, and he's the captain. And what kind of captain was he? What kind of leader uh uh is he? So they're gonna get they're gonna see what they can get for this guy. There'll be one, there'll be a team, teams, there'll be teams that'll be be interested in him. But it's it's he is part. You have a you have a crazy situation. You've got the richest hockey team in the NHL, uh top, and it can't even figure out how to get itself into the playoffs, and that's what his big-time agent is seeing and smelling. That room is not good, doesn't smell good. You gotta find another captain, also, and that's not gonna be easy.

SPEAKER_05 23:55

Yeah, you know what's interesting. He him and McDavid share agents.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

I think uh Matthews bristles under that captaincy, and and uh a great indicator of the of what the team thinks of him was the roundful Gudis hit when there was absolutely no response whatsoever. And even the following game, when they played out on him again, the the response was underwhelming at best. And uh, you know, they made good as fight, and that was it, and they never laid a hand on him the rest of the game. So, you know, I I just because he's a great player doesn't mean he's a great leader, and I I don't see him in that role. And I think uh if he stays in Toronto, I think the best thing they could do is strip the C from him. They did it to Daryl Sittler, and uh so I think you know history could repeat itself here.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

They take the C away, the problem is they're gonna give it to the other guy who's not worth it, and that's Tavares. So you're going from one waist to another. The only thing about the only thing I say about Matthews, he's from Arizona. He wants to go back to a stateside team. He's you know, he's had enough of this. Toronto is the hockey capital of the world, and uh look what look what it's done for him. Get him out of there.

SPEAKER_05 25:10

Jerry, I want to ask, Jerry, the one thing I'll say to you is you might be right. It might be time to change up the leadership group a little bit, but Daryl Silver in the 70s and 80s is very different than Austin Matthews 40, 50 years later. Athletes nowadays they are much more controlling, they have much more authority themselves. And I don't see a scenario where the Leafs do that, especially I can't see a 34 or 5-year-old John Thaika going over to Austin Matthews while he's trying to sell him on the team and stripping him of the sea. I don't see that being an I just a reality. Again, I think Maeve is very right. I think Austin probably wants to leave. He probably should leave, honestly. Um, but at the same time, I think that John Tchaika and management, their goal is to keep him here. Um their goal is to keep him in May Belief. And I think that's what they're going to try to do. Whether that happens or not, that remains to be seen, but we'll find out very shortly, as well as our decision was Coach Barube.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Well, like you said, they need to replenish their draft picks. So, you know, Matthews would bring a king ransom, a king's ransom in in that regard. And uh especially this year, St. Louis has two first-round picks. The Canucks have two first-round picks. I think, and not that I want Matthews in Vancouver, I would much rather see him in St. Louis, but but you know, there's deals to be made there, you know. Uh you know, the two first round picks, you know.

SPEAKER_05 26:30

Yeah, and I I just want to say, Jerry, on your point. I don't know how many elite years Austin Abyss has left. I think he's gotten injured a lot more than people realize. Um, and I again he has that shot, but his wrist is it hasn't been the same for a couple of years. Again, the guy at his peak is the best, you know, he's the top goal scorer in the NHL. But I just don't know if we'll ever get that version again. I hope we do, because it's must-watch TV and it's great for fans and the league and and and any team he plays for or plays against. But I don't know if we're ever gonna get that again. And I hope we do. But he's gotten injured a lot and he's changed his game a little bit. I think these injuries have yeah, it's tough. It's tough. It's really tough.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

His value is down right now as well. Who knows? For sure. For sure. He's gonna come back next season.

SPEAKER_05 27:16

We don't know. I want to say one interesting point to you guys, um, because everyone's talking about the coach. So when Kyle Jubiscal fired him and Spezza left and they went to Pittsburgh, um, the Leaves went after the biggest name out there, which at the time was Brad Tree Living. And we all see how that one played out. Uh, Tree Living his tenure as a Toronto Maple Leaf General Manager was horrendous. Um, it was a disaster. Overpay after overpay, terrible asset management, some decent contracts signed and a couple decent moves, but overall was not a great positive experience for the leaves management group at the time. So, Bruce Cassidy, I believe, is the biggest name out there. I think Bruce Cassidy's a better coach than Brad Free Living is as a GM. I don't think Brad Tree Living has made so many great moves. If you go back to his calendar days, um, but at the same time, I I just I don't know. I think that Leafs Management, the really the upper echelon that's probably still there. Not like the chat, not like the Chaikas and the Sandines, but above that, the Keith Kellys of the world. I see them saying, you know what, let's give Barube a chance. Let's wait for the right coach for us. Because if they don't see Bruce Cassidy being a great fan, which he totally can be, because he is somebody that he's not Cassidy can't he hasn't really stayed places too long. He's like a three, four-year coach, but he does get the best out of his players. So I can see that being very good for a Leaf team that might need a real shot on the arm in a different way, even though we all thought Barube would provide that. But I don't see the Leafs just hiring for the sake of hiring. I think Chike Godson Dean and Kelly and the management group, they're gonna hire him when they feel it's right. And I'm not sure they feel that right now because a lot of the coaching carousel is a lot of great coaches got picked up. I think Peter Bohr would have been amazing, but he was already scooped.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

You said uh to give the guy a chance. Is that right? Is that what I heard, right? Yes. Well, how would you why would you give this guy a chance if you're saying that he lost the room? But if we're gonna have a whole new room that he's gonna walk into, he's gonna go back into the same room that he lost. So what the heck? How do you how do you justify that?

SPEAKER_05 29:20

So I'll explain to you. I'm very careful with how I said it. I said to give John Scheika a chance, and I said that I believe John Shaika is gonna give Rube an opportunity. I believe. I think I still think that he lost the room. And maybe if you asked me earlier on about why I thought that, and I think you didn't argue with me, which probably means that you you agree that he lost the room after the way I explained how I thought he lost the room.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

I don't agree about him losing the room uh at all because I don't know what the hell goes on with that team, but I do know that there is something wrong, and it could be that it's the room and not the coach. And certainly, if you look at what happened with Q, Q going to Anaheim and absolutely turning that team into a winner. A miraculo, a miraculous thing. So I don't uh there's there's just so many good guys out there, and they got the team is so much, the richest team in the league. So you bring a guy in, give him the big dough, and see what don't go, don't go with a guy who's rusty now. We tried that with Mike Babcock, man. Remember? What about you want to bring in Babcock?

SPEAKER_05 30:31

No, we tried that with him already. We gave him eight years, we have $50 million.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Bring in, tell me who you want to you want to bring in Cassidy, bring him in. I think Stottie Bowman. That was a joke. Scotty's in California forever.

SPEAKER_05 30:46

Yeah. Maybe let me ask you, what do you think about going off script? What do you think about uh what do you think about hiring a dog Bobby O'Leak?

SPEAKER_04 30:55

He would be incredible, I think. He's a great coach.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Bobby O'Leek is not interested because Bobby O'Leak is very well off. He's very comfortable living in the States, and he doesn't need to go to a job where he knows he's gonna be fired. He's not uh he's a very smart fellow. You know what? We had a guy on yesterday who would be perfect, Tom Runny. Tom Rennie would be the guy. There you go. Tom Rennie is on the level of uh Joel Quenville. And and he's smart and he knows how to handle people, and he's not gonna say stupid things about the players to do this or that. But I don't know whether uh you know, Tom, Tom uh may not need uh migraines working there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 31:51

I mean I agree with the Maven. I I think that the Leafs have the op the resources to bring in whoever they want. Um I just you know I've never been a fai Keith Valley and what he's brought to this team. So whatever in my like whatever he brings, I just I don't see myself being such a big fan of. But at the same time, I had somebody who believes in second chances. So just like with John Schaika, I think that I I don't know. I don't know what they're gonna do. There's a lot of decisions to make. And what if Austin Matthews says, bring in this coach and I'll stay? And you know, maybe he might not be the greatest coach, but Austin Matthews wanting to stay. Like, what do you do? Because that's what McDavid did, you know, and I'm thinking uh like non block's a good coach, but like, you know, McDavid's agent is the Jeff Jackson, his former agent, is the president of the Oilers, right? Now then the uh McDavid switched to John Moldaver, who's also Matthews' agent. Um, and then his coach is his his former other coach in in juniors is now coach Chris Knoblock. So like I don't know. If Austin Matthews comes to the Leafs and says, you know, he wants Steve Sullivan, his minor hockey coach of the Arizona Arizona Junior Coyotes to be his coach, what do you think the Leafs do? What do you think they say? Because they can have all the money in the world, but if their best player wants something and that's how he's gonna stay, they'll probably bend to that.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

You know, do you think he's considering actually leaving? I want to hear about Vancouver. He's a guy who knows about the Canucks, is concerned about the Canucks. What's what's gonna be there? What do you what do you think they're gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 33:22

General manager first. I imagine they will do so before the draft. And then whoever it is has gonna like uh Mark was saying, you know, he's gotta reinstill the pride in uh in the in being a Canuck, you know, and uh the saying is, you know, you don't play for the name on the back, you play for the the logo on the front, you know, and that and Canucks have lost that, you know, and and uh Adam Foote, you know, in my my humble opinion, has been an unmitigated disaster and and is just not cut out to be uh head coach, at least not now, you know, and so you know I think they got a clean house, you know, they got they got rid of the general manager, they got a got the coaching staff, you know, and and some of the roster, and you know, start from scratch, build through the draft. That's one thing the Canucks have been terrible at is building through the draft. And uh, you know, they get uh stop trading your first round picks, you know, stop that, you know. Um we traded the first round for Philip Rohnick. I think that was the only one that ever worked out, you know. And so, you know, they I firmly believe that the only way to build a contender is building look at Minnesota, they built through the draft, you know. Look at Colorado, they built through the draft, you know. It takes a while, you know, it's you gotta be patient and and let the let the players develop. But you know, you get a great director of player development and you let them develop the players. You you start in your minor league system and you you bolster that and then and then let the results speak for themselves. And uh, you know, the the Canucks have completely lost their way. And personally, the the one to blame, I think, is Francesco Aquilini. He just cannot keep his finger out of the out of the pie. And he just he you gotta get somebody who is gonna let the hockey people run the hockey team. So, you know, the the the problem the problems are are a myriad, and and then just like uh you know, just like the leaves, we got a lot of decisions to make and and you know, and former Canuck Matt Sundee, I think, is gonna be a definite asset to the Maple Leafs.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Would you bring in would you bring in Rennie to be GM of the Canucks?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

In a heartbeat. I would love to have Tom Rennie back in the fold here. He's uh you know, just uh, you know, there's nobody in the hockey world I have ever experienced said a bad word about Tom Rennie. And his experience with the Olympic team, you know, and and his uh in the NHL and junior, he's had nothing but success, you know, and and yeah, you would want a guy like that. And uh, I don't know what he's doing sitting on the sidelines. It's just like it's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Too smart.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

Jerry, uh, two things. First of all, I want to congratulate you on one thing that Accolities finally decided it was time to build a practice facility in downtown Vancouver. So that'll help out at least a little bit because it was pathetic that you guys were practicing out of your home Barn Rogers Arena. Um, so that was some decent news out of Vancouver for the first time in a while. The other question, uh that's that's point number one. The question for you is uh, do you feel it sounds like per fridge that Pierre Dorian's getting a real shot at this? I actually thought he did a great job in Ottawa. I feel bad he didn't get to see it through because I think he made some great decisions there. And like you just touched on so nicely to build of the draft, and Pierre did a pretty good job with that. There was one pick which he really swung and missed on, and that was a couple years back. I think it was 10th overall, Tyler Boucher, um, which could have been a really good pick to them, but they swung and missed. So, like, do you feel that Pierre Jorian can be the guy for you in Vancouver? I know you guys have been mentioning Tom Rennie, and like you all have said, I've only heard the best things about him, and I'm excited to listen to the podcast with him. But uh, it sounds like Pierre Jorian's getting some real serious interest in Vancouver. How do you feel about that, Jerry?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah, I'm uh 50-50 on that. I've been reading good and bad about Krav Pierre. You know, he's he's got his detractors in Vancouver, and uh, you know what they say makes a lot of sense, but he's an experienced hockey guy, and and yeah, uh I don't know. Like I say, I'm 50-50, I'm on the fence, so uh I'd like to see who else is out there and uh and see what what else we can get because uh there you know you talk about these uh executives, and you know, there's top shelf executives, and then there's the second tier. And I think Dorian's in the in the second tier. So, you know, I I'd like to see a more like a I don't know, like not as an example, but somebody like Brian Burke or Pat Quinn or you know, a super boss, you know, that can uh can drive the ship, you know. And uh I'm not sure Pierre Dorian has that kind of personality where people will go to war for him.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Jerry, Jerry, how much blame do you give to Rutherford for this mess?

SPEAKER_01 38:39

You know, I know he's a friend of yours, and I you know, but uh forget about your hotel. You know, how can you not? You know, he's the leader of the ship, you know, he's the captain, and uh and uh and everything this whole you know haha is is happened under his leadership, and and he just kind of just watched it happen, you know, and uh didn't do anything, didn't do anything constructive about it, just let it go on and on and on. And then so how can you know how can you not, you know, and uh but he you know he didn't get dumb overnight, you know. He's still he's still a uh great hockey mind, and I just don't know what what happened, you know, in the in the recent history here, but you know, uh like uh Mark has mentioned, you know, give somebody a second chance. I think I think Jim Rutherford, you know, like I say, he didn't become stupid overnight. I think he's he he deserves a chance to write the ship anyway. Because I like him. I I like him personally.

SPEAKER_05 39:50

Absolutely. Jeremy, I want to ask you a question. There's two names um in in the uh I guess retiree world that have been assistant GMs for the last couple years who I really like. Both of them have spent time with the Maple Leaf organization. I just don't believe they've actually had a say in what's gone on. I believe they've just been there. Um, number one is Jason Spetza, and number two is Shane Donne. I don't think either will end up in Vancouver, but are those two names that are you in you're intrigued by or you're looking for more innovative, experienced hockey minds who can help something challenge?

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Yeah, you know, I'm very reticent to put a former player in in the GM's chair because just look at uh Chris Drury in in New York. It's it's he's been terrible, and somehow he keeps his job. And uh, you know, I I yeah, I I would be, you know, and yeah, what um what I'm what I'm hearing is they're leaning toward Ryan Johnson, who has been the GM of their minor league team, and he's been in the Canucks or organization forever, so he knows he knows where all the bodies are buried, he knows all the secrets, you know. He know he he knows every detail there is to know about the organization. So I I'm kind of leaning towards that uh Ryan Johnson being the uh being the GM I think the team that got the best deal out of the draft is the sharks.

SPEAKER_04 41:16

They got the second pick and they have Salibrini for a few years now.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

So what's good about the second uh pick? What what about them?

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Well, I mean they already have Salabrini. They might want to add a defenseman and trade the pick.

SPEAKER_05 41:32

Elena, I want to chime in here and tell you, in my opinion, I think the Sharks are gonna win-win because if they want to go best player available, which historically is always way, way, way smarter than reaching for a need, then they'll take either Stenberg or McKenna. Um, meaning whoever the Leafs decide to take. So it's really all the pressure on Toronto. Um, with regards to your question about the everyone, we're presuming McKenna goes one. Stenberg is an excellent player out of Sweden, put of great numbers in the top Swedish probably the SHL. Uh play, you know, brought Sweden their third world junior since the 80s, uh, the third gold medal at the world juniors in Minnesota this past December. Um, he's an excellent two-way player. He is built for the NHL now. He's about 6'2, almost 200 pounds. Plays an excellent two-way game. People say he's very he's very similar to like an eco heather type of player. A two-way player could have put up about 80 points. And a lot of people just believe he is a higher, he has a higher floor as a player, like he's a safer bet, but McKenna has a higher ceiling. Um, and that's who the sharks are gonna potentially be looking at. In terms of what I think the sharks will do, Elena, I believe the sharks are gonna actually trade out of their pick. I think they'll trade a couple picks down because they'll recoup some assets, which they'll then use at the deadline next year when they become buyers. They will draft the defenseman like you suggested, but they'll draft him a couple picks down because they have the opportunity to wait. And don't forget the sharks also have 40 plus million dollars in cafe. So I think the race for Darren Radish, the top right headshot defenseman, who the leaf so desperately need will be between the Leafs and the Sharks. Um and both teams have a ton of cast space. The sharks have 40, about 40 million, 45 million, the leafs have about 26. So either way, Radish will go home with a lot of money. But I believe those two teams will be going after him. And I believe if the Sharks keep that pick, they're drafting an offensive player. But I do believe the likelihood is they treat it.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

I want to talk about the playoffs. Carolinas, anybody gonna beat them?

SPEAKER_04 43:34

I think they might win the cup.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Well, but why? Why? What they never do win the cup, and what makes them different now? They got a good goalie. It was a terrible goalie in the past. Terrible goalie. But Minnesota now coming up with that big win, uh they might uh they might figure out how to beat uh those guys from uh Denver. I hope they do anyhow.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Do you think Vegas is gonna be a threat? If they get past the ducks?

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Look, we saw Ren, we had Rennie on, and Rennie gave a great endorsement to John Tortorella, especially the way he put it. He gets the team going in a hurry. And the team is leading in this series. But uh this is another uh uh this is these are great, great playoffs to watch. Even you know, uh you gotta give credit to Philly for giving uh their best, uh certainly against Carolina. You gotta give Ottawa credit. Ottawa had uh four defensemen out, and they you know they they played well. But I I I I just love the way the Carolina team has been playing, and they've been getting the goaltending. That was the weak spot.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

Jerry, you were saying that their goaltending was a bit shaky.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Yeah, as uh I've never been a Freddie Anderson fan. I think he falters at the at the worst possible times, and and but he has proven me wrong in this. I've been watching him, but he's changed his game. He's playing way more in the blue paint now, and he's very efficient, and he you know, he's compact, and he's not moving a whole lot, you know. He just he he looks very stable in there, and he's very tough to beat, you know. And and that's what you need in the playoffs. And he's like I say, uh there's still time, they're only halfway, you know, so and they've only played eight games, so there's still time for him to uh falter. But I don't see you know either Buffalo or Montreal uh beating Carolina the way they're playing right now, and the only uh factor that can come into play is that Carolina is gonna be off for at least a week now, maybe ten days. And uh it's hard to put that switch, put that switch back on, you know. And so, you know, we're uh like you say, the these playoffs have been the most interesting playoffs in a long, long time. I I'm loving every minute of it.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

The coaching is so important, and Brindamore, just like Tom Rennie said, he could coach a uh fire hydrant. He's a perfect coach at this time for his team. Now, I'm a big fan of that guy who's coaching in Minnesota because we we had John Hines in Jersey. Uh-huh. And I I John Hines to me is like a latter-day Tom Rennie. He's cool. He's got uh respect from the team, and we'll see what happens in uh game four. If Minnie wins game four, the series is tied. Could be terrific. Many's got some good players, and they got uh that kid on defense who is gonna wind up in Jersey, but right now he's in many.

SPEAKER_04 46:52

Do you think Quinn Hughes will extend his contract with Minnesota?

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Tell that to his mother.

SPEAKER_04 46:58

I think he'll stick around.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

We're gonna talk about what's going on now, not the future. And the now is that the team came back with a big win. They got a good coach, and they got one of my favorite general managers in Billy Guerin. And I think you got a case with Billy Guerin where the spirit in him, the spirit in him goes down into the dressing room, and they've got a coach who can translate that. But we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. We all know that we all know that Colorado's got a good team. I guess it's a situation similar to what I was saying. They have a very, very special coach at the best time for Torch to be there. And they have a lot of good players. I was reading today, you know, uh some fans were writing in. Well, what's the big deal with Mana? He beat uh he he's beating easy teams. First of all, there are no easy teams, and second of all, it's typical Toronto sour grapes. Uh-huh. Sour grapes, sour grapes uh leaf fans. They can't abide the fact that this guy Marner, who knew damn well he had to get out of Toronto, and he did. And that's why I say you're gonna see the same thing with Matthews. But the important thing when you when you're dealing with a team like Vegas, you gotta look at the fact, well, do they have a good goalie? And does this guy Hart have the goods? Well, they're leading the series, so we'll see. But right now, I gotta I gotta like I gotta like a team that has Eichel buried because he wasn't picked uh up with uh McDavid, but right behind, and he's doing better than McDavid's done. So you gotta you gotta it's it it's just what uh what Jerry was saying, these are great playoffs, really and very intriguing.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

I want to ask the biggest leaves fan, Mark, what do you make of Marner becoming a playoff beast as soon as he leaves Toronto?

SPEAKER_05 49:11

I want to say a couple of things. First of all, um, with regards to Jerry brought up an excellent point about Carolina, and I just want to address something that Maven and I were discussing earlier with regards to the Leafs. Uh Rob Brandon, where like coaching Carolina definitely has that room by his fingertips. They're all bought in, they're locked in. Some great, some great players. Um just like Eric Tolski, the GM there, makes such a great acquisition, right? Stan Coven, Jackson Blake is a second-round pick, Eagler's out of free agency, Stan Cobin via trade, Freddie Anderson, like Jerry was saying, is locked in better than we've ever seen. So this this kind of stuff transpiring allows success. Um, on top of all that, Carolina had a great route. Um, so we'll see what happens in the semi-final, you know, the compass final. I believe there's a good chance they'll represent the East. I don't think they'd beat Colorado in the Stanley Cup if Colorado gets there, and I don't think they beat Vegas either. They just don't match up well against them because both teams are bigger, more physical than the team they're accustomed to. And I actually think Buffalo can give them pits because Buffalo is not as good yet, but they have that same physicality. Um now, with regards to the Leafs and Martyr, I think there's two interesting things. I'm happy for Mitch as a player, as the Maeve was saying, I think it was time for them to leave. At the same time, I also think that playing Utah and playing Anaheim in the first two rounds of the playoffs are very different than playing Boston and Tampa. If you look at the standings, I think Utah and Anaheim each have like less than 100 points. And just remember, the Leafs on average played opponents that are 105 points. Um, so regular season success being paramount to what you play is important. And also, I just want to say Utah and Anaheim are not physical as physical defensively or offensively as the way Boston and Tampa were in the years that we battled with them. So I'm not trying to I'm not trying to take away from it's his performance. I'm super happy for him. Um it's a it's an amazing story. It was definitely looks like it was time that he moved on. Would it have been nice if he told us earlier and allowed us to recoup proper assets for him? That sure would have been nice. But at the same time, and I'm not trying to discredit his playoff performance, but you have to look at the body of work he did in the East compared to what he's doing out west in his first season there. And when you're playing teams that are younger, less experienced, and less physical, a player like that is going to be more successful.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

Main, what do you think? What do I think? Uh what I said, this guy has found his game in a more hospitable situation. A different coach who knows what the hell he's doing. Torts knows how to handle a guy like Mana. So that's that everything, everything fits for Mana because you have to have a very uh you have to be in a situation where you feel comfortable. So how much how many more years does he have to be uncomfortable in Toronto? Everything is going downhill. Your buddy Tavares is gonna, he's going downhill. He was supposed to, he was, they brought him in to win a Stanley Cup. That's how dumb they were. They win a Stanley Cup, he bad captain, didn't do anything. So I I'm very happy about I'm very happy about Vegas because I like I like the that that's a pure American team, and the owner doesn't sit around doing nothing. He says, we gotta do something. He gets himself a coach when nobody else would do it. And Toss, of course, goes in there. He goes into the cauldron. That's wonderful stuff. So I I'm I'm I'm just enjoying the playoffs. And I can't see anybody, any, anybody dumping on Mitch Marner after what he did last night. That's what they that's why they got him. He's a playoff player, but in Toronto, nobody's a playoff player because they never win the cup.

SPEAKER_05 52:54

I will say that Marner actually underperformed his regular season. I am happy for him. Now he's been a great proceeding Canada on the international level as well. Going back to his world junior days.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

I think Marner is just flourishing under torturella.

SPEAKER_05 53:08

Also, remember, like he's playing with players like Barbashev and Eichel, and these guys are they're gonna go retrieve the pop for him, and he can go work his magic.

SPEAKER_04 53:17

Yeah, do you have uh joke for us to close the show?

SPEAKER_02 53:22

We were just talking about Vegas, right? Well, you go to do you have you ever been there? Have you ever bet in Vegas? Oh, yeah. No, I'm talking uh the hostess, Elena.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

We've been to Vegas uh a few times, but I never bet.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

How about you, T-bag? Have you bet in Vegas?

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Yeah, I I won $40 on uh uh on uh blackjack, and my wife and I raced out of the room. We got 40 bucks. Let's get out of here.

SPEAKER_05 54:17

I never I didn't hit the casino, like I didn't gamble there. I just I went to a game in the fortress in Vegas, and that was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Yeah, yeah. I'll tell you my one Vegas memory, my wife and I went, what was it, 2009, 2010, somewhere in there, and uh walking into the casino for the first time, and you open the doors and you walk in, and it's like boom, it's like a brick wall of cigarette smoke. It's like you you forget that smoking is still allowed in in those buildings. So yeah, it was uh it took a while to become nose blind to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

They also pump oxygen so you don't get tired and you can play all night.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Yeah, and there's no clocks. There's no clocks, so you don't know what time it is.

SPEAKER_05 55:05

It's very hard for the players. It must be hard for the players to come down there on the road and take it seriously and walk in.

SPEAKER_04 55:10

Well, thank you so much, Mark. Always a pleasure of having you on the show. Thank you for joining to everyone watching and listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and call bottle rocket everywhere. And we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_05 55:22

Cheers, guys. Be well. Stay safe.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.