The Art of Condos: From Governance to Government

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Presenters, the Canadian Condominium Institute and its representatives will not be held liable in any respect whatsoever for any statement or advice presented herein. These presentations should not be relied upon as a professional opinion or as an authoritative or comprehensive answer in any case. Professional advice should be obtained after discussing all particulars applicable in the specific circumstances to obtain an opinion or report capable of absolving condominium directors from liability [under s. 37 (3) (b) of the Condominium Act, 1998]. Presenters' views expressed are not necessarily those of the Canadian Condominium Institute.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the Condo Pod, brought to you by the Canadian Con Man Institute, Eastern Ontario chapter. This is your go-to space for all things condo in Eastern Ontario. From governance and legal updates to maintenance, management, and community living, we're diving into the topics that matter most to condo owners, directors, and professionals across our region. Let's dive in. If you're a condo director, a property manager, industry professional, or a condo owner, clear your schedule for Friday, May 29th. It's the annual CCI Eastern Ontario Kingston Conference. Happening at the Kingston Marriott, and it's your one-stop shop for everything condominium. We're diving into governance, law, insurance, common elements, all the moving parts that keep your condo community running smoothly, or at least help you sleep better at night. Plus, it's a great chance to connect with others in the condo world who get it. Thinking about sponsoring or exhibiting, now is the time. Spots are going fast. Register today at ccieasternOntario.ca. Well, I'm excited today to welcome Patricia Elliott to another fantastic episode of The Condo Pod. Um, for those of you listening in, you're like, the name Patricia Elliott, why is that ringing a bell? Well, if you've been around condos the last decade or more, and you've been to any event, you've seen anything in the courts, you've been to any engagements or been to a conference, you've either seen Patricia in the audience, you've seen her up on the stage, you've seen her at committee meetings, you've seen her at board meetings. So I'm I'm excited. I've known Patricia. We were just talking before we started about how long I've known her, and it's been since my time in CCI. Right. Um, I knew of you and about you before I knew other chapters in the province in the country. Your name had come up through the condo discussions. So um so I'm excited to have you on today, Patricia. Um, what I'd like to do is give us a quick background how you kind of got into the condo world and and kind of where that went from there.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Well, thank you so much, Mike, for having me. It's a real honor and pleasure. Really happy with the work that you guys are doing. And uh, how did I get here? Well, that's an interesting story. I'm just gonna say two words. Richard Aaliyah. I always blame Richard Aaliyah, who is a senior condominium lawyer who I know quite well. Uh he's not my brother, just if anybody was wondering. Um, but prior to joining the condominium law practice at Aaliyah Associates, I used to practice financial institution law at Blake Castles and Graydon. And so I was a Bay Street lawyer doing banking work. Wow. Okay, in an 800 lawyer firm. And um, so then life evolved and and we decided to have all these children and we decided to have our own business. And so while Richard went off to do a master's, I joined the practice, and I had done corporate commercial law as well before banking. And so I brought those skills and that knowledge to what I do now, which is condominium law primarily. So that's how I got here. And then I happened to become a board member on a condo. Yes, and then I became an owner of a condo, and then I joined CCI. And so the story the story is just, and so she wrote it. So, you know, it's been a wonderful uh over two decades now uh being involved in the condominium law industry. I've practiced for 30, but I've been in condominium law for over 20 years. So um and Aliy Associates has been around for 25 years this year.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

25 years.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yes, we're celebrating this year.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

That's fantastic. And for those who might not know, we talked before in the chapter uh on on the podcast about different chapters. Now, your firm and you and Richard and your you know your associate lawyers belong to a number of chapters across the province and on the national level.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

We do. We actually feel that it's really important because we are a post-development Ontario-based firm.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

So we uh uh belong to the majority of chapters in Ontario because each chapter of CCI brings something different. It does. And I think that's wonderful. I myself sit on the board at CCI Hironia, right? But I also volunteer in CCI Toronto and Eastern Ontario. Wherever I can actually do something that is helpful, I try to expand our knowledge and expand the chapters. And why that's important is because CCI is a grassroots organization that has been committed for more than 40 years to director education. Absolutely. It started it. And what I've seen as being a national executive member as well for six years is that the 17 chapters across the country, we are different, but we have the same issues.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

And the ability to share that has actually driven meaningful legislative change in the differ various provinces. Yes. I also sit on government relations with uh govern with Nancy Hoole. Yes. And when we have discussions, they're very meaningful. And we we bring up issues that are of interest to condo owners and say, you know, this is the condo perspective. And one thing I've learned is that a condominium is the fourth level of government. We have a lot to undertake, we have a big framework to fill in. It's not as simplistic as people think. And so CCI has created that platform in 17 chapters across the country to elevate the game. What I've seen is CCI actually brings director education up. And what I love is that the CAO trusted CCI to actually create its foundational materials. CAO relied on CCI to create that base for what became and has become the programs now.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

And I think that's really important. I was listening to Nancy and Mark talk about where the CAO is going. And I think there are some important things that the CAO is doing and driving, and that we at CCI can be a valuable tool in actually working to bring those ideas to fruition and actually structuring them in a meaningful way while keeping in mind that condominiums are non-for-profit organizations. Yes. Right? And not downloading costs to the taxpayer. Yes. That's really important that we become efficient with our money and our resources.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Absolutely. And like you mentioned, and and this is something I try to advocate on your behalf as a condominium lawyer. I'm in the real estate sphere and I explain to people, you know, you and Richard and Nancy and Christy and all of them and Rod are condominium lawyers. And they go, oh, so if I'm buying a condo, I can call Patricia. And I was like, no. So what I'd like you to do, Patricia, is I think I explained it fairly well. But if you could let our listeners know and our viewers, sure. What is the role of a condominium lawyer that you and I understand your role is, that maybe the general public or somebody interested in in CCI of the condo world? How would you explain your role?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Well, I think one of the important things is we build a relationship with the condominium corporation.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

And so that's on two sides of the legal coin, as it were. One side is corporate corporate law, and what that means is we work on ensuring that there's a proper interpretation of the DEC, the bylaws, the rules. We help amend the DEC, the bylaws, and rules. We put in place policies that actually meet the legal standards under applicable legislation in the province of Ontario, but we also write opinions to boards on various interpretations of their documents. So sometimes people will say, well, is that HVAC the unit owner's responsibility, or is that the corporation's responsibil responsibility? Is it in the reserve fund or is it the unit owners paying for that?

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Right? And sometimes documents are not clear. Let's be realistic. Since 1968, when the first condo was registered, there has been a huge shift, evolution, growth, and sophistication of condos.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

I like the word growth. We'll go with that one. We'll go with growth is the way it's gone.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

And you know, to me, we've seen a variety of drafting getting better and better, but there are still documents that are not as clear as they could be. And so we also work on shared facilities agreements. We work on the committees and the disputes that they have. And then on the other side of that same coin is we deal with the litigation side, legal proceedings. And that often is in the form of compliance, compliance against people in the actual community that are not abiding by the rules. Why? I don't know why they don't abide, because the expectation is that we will all work together to uphold the deck, the bylaws, and the rules. But then there are people who think that they don't have to. And that's really not fair to the rest of us as unit owners. And it the directors have a positive duty under Section 119 of the Act to enforce those documents. So that's where we live in the space of being condo lawyers. We are the backbone legal piece for the condo's operations, day-to-day, and support the managers, support the boards.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Which which goes to something, and I know this is a passion of yours, and you and I have spoken about it, and I've heard you, and if you ever get a chance, anyone you see Patricia's name on a list for a guest speaker, make the drive to the chapter, drive in there. It's always great to have you on a panel.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

One thing that you speak to very passionately is that the condominium world, I'm gonna use that as a general term, is the fourth level of governance. The fourth level of government. Maybe you could speak a bit to that for our audience.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Sure. That idea actually came about when Richard did his thesis in the uh alternative dispute resolution, his master's. He actually his thesis was how to design a program for alternative dispute resolution for the fourth level of government. And what he saw was condominiums are actually running a community, a community where there has to be compliance, enforcement, asset management. There are a lot of different things that parallel what government structures do for society. We are managing society. And I think what I see is a real need to make sure that condominiums have the legislative latitude and support by through the government laws and and even the infrastructure to allow us to do our work, right? And you know, one of the things that we've seen, if I could give an example, we've seen a growth in mental health issues showing up in our community. And you know, the shooting in Vaughan really highlighted tragically um mental health for us and the reality that boards are facing. And so one of the things that I have been advocating for, and I really need to figure out how to talk to the government about this, is faster tracking and the ability to engage the public guardian's office. Yes when we see people that do not necessarily have the capacity. Practically speaking, I can tell when I'm dealing with somebody who may not have all of the ability to understand decision making. And what I see is a waste of their equity because then they start fighting us. I need a more collaborative process to work with them, but I also need somebody to protect their interests.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

And you know, to me, that's where the public guardians office could really help, and where legislation to allow fast tracking for certification or assessment would be beneficial because what I've seen is people who have mental health issues or are not complying don't always can't always help themselves.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

No.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Right?

SPEAKER_02 11:55

If we've got a hoarding issue, which is a big topic often in condominium.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Exactly. And what we need to be is compassionate, we need to be understanding, but we also need compliance because we have to manage the risks of you know, fire, pestilence, whatever is else that can go with hoarding. So how do we do that? Where is the nexus? And you know, I've heard of some brilliant property managers who actually can facilitate that process beautifully, but I think we also need to intervene and help the unit owners. Like my personal feeling is who is protecting the unit owner? So, in that fourth level of government, that's a tool.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

It is, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:40

So if you're gonna give us responsibility, and I said as a condo director as well, well, give us the tools so that we're empowered to make good decisions for the communities that we serve, and that we can stay within the legislative framework, but there's actually a faster way to resolve issues. Because here's the thing if the public guardian had stepped in on some of the cases that I've seen, there would be no erosion of equity in legal fees because often the costs go back to the unit owner.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Of course. And that's and it's the design of the legislative process, but to your point, it puts them on their back foot, they don't have the support that they deserve.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

And and you're as a director, as the legal counsel, or as a unit owner, you have a lawful responsibility to follow the rules and bylaws as put out by the Act.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Right. But what if you don't appreciate how to do that?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Because they don't know.

unknown 13:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

And they have nobody helping them necessarily. You know, and the reality is as we see more people aging in place, which is going to be one of those topics that's strong this year, we are going to see more of these issues. And that's not to be ageist, right? Because mental health affects everybody, but we evolve as people. We have different needs in different stages of our lives. So how are condos going to rise to these new challenges, right? And I I would love to empower condos to do it.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

It's supporting their owners from all perspectives. It's no different than the Disability Act, it's no different than other provisions under the legislation like tenancy law.

unknown 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

There's support and mechanisms for those parties. Right. So why not as the needs of the community change or that unit owner over their tenure, the ownership? Yeah. Why isn't there the support for the mental health? Or easily accessible support.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Right. And that's what I'm seeing because you know there are initiatives now in condominiums where communities are aging and condominiums are trying to find where the boundaries are in managing responsibilities. Like what do they owe the owners and what do they not? But we still have communities that have to thrive. So some of the creative things that we see are you know, the University Health Network has a program called Nork where they will actually come on site and educate owners in their home in the party room and talk about services that unit owners can access, that they can make decisions about. So somebody is actually coming into their homes, giving them education, giving them choices, but it's driven by the unit owner and the condo stays out of it. Right? But isn't that a way of facilitating knowledge, access?

SPEAKER_02 15:29

And it's giving them the freedom and their family. A lot of times there's family involved in these discussions, right? Right. And and they feel that sometimes the process within the I mean is the condo act as a general blanket statement, they feel they're restricted. Whereas if you open the door, allow the conversation, it allows the dialogue to start.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

You're exactly correct. And that's what's been interesting about this, is it that creation of awareness has ignited a spark and it actually builds community. When we know that we care about each other, and in Ottawa, you know, I really find that communities care about each other. There's an important vibe in Ottawa. There's some passionate condo communities. Absolutely, I love it. And and but that's something that's outstanding, right? That is something that I wish I could share more across the province in terms of giving examples of how communities support each other with and their people within it by bringing resources home to where people need them, right? And that's what we've got to figure out and work with even third-party service providers or third-party agencies to bring that awareness and knowledge. Because more people are going to, for example, be aging at home and be aging in place and condos.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

And and to your point, I mean, and you touched briefly on we talked earlier about reserve funds, stat certificates, and that.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

So we quite often, um, when you're a director, you seek legal counsel, you'll seek an engineering firm for a building envelope concern. Um, you'll seek an environmental review of what so why not also look at mental health support for your community?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yeah, exactly, right? So this is the thing. When you look at a f a government and what government actually can basket, you have to look at all the actual issues that come across our tables and figure out what silos do we have and how do they connect? Because one of the big things I think we have to be proactive on is risk management. We have to think ahead, of course, and we have to be proactive to minimize the impact on the community. So good corporate governance fits into that, but having the right policies, so if you have a policy for accommodation of human rights, what does that do to your for your community? It actually provides a process, clarity, transparency. So, you know, I've had a client where somebody needed Shabbat elevator service on a Friday and a Saturday. And so they made the request. We wrote to the rabbi that they had been engaged with for 20 years, strongly held belief. And the condominium effectively, when it was redesigning its elevators, was able to put in Shabbat service without affecting any other level of service for any other unit owners. And so that's to me what I find so in interesting is that we actually can do it. We actually can, once we know there's a need, we can figure out solutions in our communities. And you know, that was something that to me was a great accomplishment in this condominium community because it actually served a very small demographic of the community, but it served. It complied with the law, and the community functioned.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

And and to your point, and we've talked about this is the you know, the Condo Act within Ontario sets the framework. Yeah. But each condominium corporation, we can even talk about those buildings that have two or three towers of phases and they have shared services, each building is its own personality and community. Yes. But that example you just gave there is the act has to allow for the community to develop the direction they want to go.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Within the framework.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Within the framework of the Act. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

It has to give the freedom of them to make those decisions for their ownership group, their community.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Correct. I I think that's important to recognize. Every condominium is different. And you know, as much as people try to cookie-cutter us, we are not, I will tell you, because I sit on two, I've sat on two different boards where I have condominium units. They're very different communities. They have very different expectations. And you need to allow the ownership to manage their real estate interests.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And that is something that I think is custom, and that's where the democratic process is actually supported, because bylaws don't pass unless the right number of unit owners approve that bylaw. Deck amendments don't happen without the right level of consent. Right? So if we want to go to a smoke-free building and we decide to do it via a DEC amendment, we've got a very high level of consent in the ownership that we need to establish before the LRO will amend that declaration. Well, why was it designed that way? It was designed that way so that owners have a voice, that the consumer is served, and that they make the communities the way they want them to be. You know, we see fundamental things like codes of ethics now. Of course, yes, which are good, basic structures, but there are still customizations.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

There absolutely is. And and to your point, and and directors serve the pleasure of the community. Yeah. Right? Yes. Um, and and I'll this is my pitch for condominium lawyers. I've been around them for a few years. The reason I enjoy the specialty or discipline of the condominium law practice is it's a mix between governance and community relations. Yeah, right. And I know you work with mediation and your firm doesn't that, but it's it's getting the people to say, here's the physical document, but where's the how how do we realize the the person between the the the bylaws?

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

So I I think you're absolutely right. I mean, it's the CEO now has, you know, their intro to being a director courses and things like that, and then our different chapters, Ontario has the director courses as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yes, the enhanced version.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Um which has a lot of this come from the feedback from the law side, right? Yeah. What you've seen in the cases that have gone to court that maybe didn't need to go to court.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Well, yes. Yeah, I think that's what case law does. Case law sets examples and teaches us lessons. And that's where I think proactive risk management is inherent in both decisions of the cat, decisions of the courts, and understanding that body of law that's gone on since the 1970s and late 60s, all of that is relevant. And you know, the the question is why? You know, we look at what The work is of Jim Davidson and the the lawyers at uh DHA, the legacy is really strong, right? There's a lot of groundbreaking work that has been done over decades. I'm glad the cat is here, and that's relatively new since 2017. It is, yeah. So together there is a massive body of law, right? And that's what we have to recognize is so what were we what were the lessons learned? How do we avoid this? How do we de-escalate the conflict in the community? Because people have to live with each other, right? And I think that's where the art of mediation is very valuable. As long as you understand condo, I think Mark Ballet gave a really good example of you know, a mediator that was a family uh family-based mediator trying to get into condo and said, well, why doesn't the condo do a divorce and buy the unit? And and the kids, didn't understand how condos work. So I think we are a little bit unique in our knowledge. And I think that's really important when we build these narratives that we are doing it within the parameters of the Condo Act. But sticking to the spirit of it, too, right? We're non-for-profit. You know, I really believe that if I haven't done anything wrong as a unit owner, I shouldn't be paying other people's legal bills.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

I think they should pay the legal bills.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Right? Because that impacts accountability. Well, exactly. It's accountability, but it also erodes my equity.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Of course, we've talked about that, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Right. And I don't want an erosion of equity for innocent unit owners. I really want to see that if you don't feel you need to abide, and then you're proven that you haven't abided and there's a cost, you pay the full shot. Because that is one of the best ways to get people to think again, right? And we've had cases where the cost has been 180,000, 170,000, all collected, all reasonable based on the length of the fights, of course. But taken from the unit owner. Right? And I think we that's where sort of condos are unique and we need to stick to the spirit of the legislation if we're gonna serve consumers.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

I agreed, and and you made a comment just when we were we were chatting just before we got started, and you said it we have to get back to the concept that essentially you're investing in the condominium. Yeah, it's not about just um and I love my engineering firms, I'm not judging, I love my reserve funds, they're amazing. But it's not the concept, and they're not the ones doing it. The people believe we're just gonna throw money into it and it's going away. Right. They they get this concept like I just have to assume my money's going away.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

And you brought up a great point about we have to get back to the mindset that it's an equity build.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

I agree. And and this is one thing that I'm really interested in doing because I'm also interested in economics and the law and how they intersect. And to me, I want people to really start looking at condos as uh equity growth. I want to start really asking what's eroding my equity here? And then is good governance, for example, an investment in good inequity? I think it is, because if I have less legal bills because I did it right, I was transparent, I de-escalated. Good on the condo. There hasn't been an erosion of our equity. But I also think things like reserve funds have to be looked at differently, which is the longevity of our assets. You know, I think there's legislative revamping that needs to be done on reserve funds so that the lives of the assets have to be really properly reflected so we understand funding.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

That was a very diplomatic way, by the way, that Patricia put it, because if you ever go to drinks with us after a conference, we use different phrasing. But Patricia, good on you for that phrasing.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Well, and you know, I've talked to some of the engineers that are super passionate about this, and I totally understand their proposition. And I think that shift in legislative thinking could actually serve the consumer.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

And you know, I'm actually pushing to this place where I actually think we start to look at what is our return on investment? Like I really want to create that dialogue on how did our condo do? What was our return on investment to our ownership?

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

And really valuing the work that the boards have done because you know it and I know it. When we see audited financials and we see money in the reserve fund, we both go, hmm, that's good. But is it good? Right? Because you and I both know, I would like to know, so what did you spend it on? Right? I don't want it to be uh the misbelief that it's a rainy, it's a bank account for a rainy day when something goes wrong. No. Exactly, right? I want to know that the money is being spent. So I think legislative change could also support encouraging boards to report on what they've spent their money on. That would form the basis of that return on investment calculation. So we would actually start seeing the building of value in the eyes of the actual ownership. And I think then the value of governance and all the pillars that go into a government that the corporation is investing in would actually make more sense and bring that return. So that's sort of the bigger picture that I see in terms of protecting consumers.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

If you're loving today's guest, Patricia Ilya, you can catch her live at the conference, along with a lineup of incredible speakers, bringing practical insight you could take straight back to your board or business. So are you ready to level up your Condo game? Grab your ticket, bring your questions, and meet us in Kingston. Register now at CCI EasternOntario.ca. We'll see you on May 29th. Right. You're absolutely right. In in the commercial asset world and commercial real estate, the the asset class, that's exactly what they do. Yeah. You look at REITs, which are real real estate investment, you know, trust, they look at if we do this, and I'll I'll make it up, if we improve the balconies this year, we'll be better served instead to do the cladding on the south side instead, because there's a greater return X. Yeah. Instead of we'll delay the fee, we'll delay the cost. And that happens. But you're right, if they start looking at like and it elevates the conversation for the directors, and it gives the condom managers the permission to have what starts as an uncomfortable conversation, but it's needed.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Correct. Everybody needs a starting point. And I think that's where we empower a profession like of managers, because they are a profession, to actually have those really educated asset discussions with their boards. And I think, you know, I look at the sophistication and the knowledge of a lot of managers, they really understand that component inventory.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

They really do, and they're undervalued in that aspect.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Right, exactly. And I think that work, together with the work that the engineers do, can really serve lay boards. And in that sense, you know, elevating the game of directors, I think directors really need to understand asset management more and start putting it more commercial terms. Because even though these are people's homes and we're volunteers, we're still running a business. And it's a multimillion dollar asset business. In many cases, I don't know any condo less than five, ten, twenty million when you actually put the value of everything together.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Exactly. You look at that entire thing, remove the residential component, the personal component, that's a substantial asset class you're managing. Correct. The liability on it, the equity build on it, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

And that's where I think as well legislation may evolve and change to maybe help us leverage some of that asset value more collectively for condos across Ontario, in terms of are there better investment structures? Is there a way to pool assets? Is there a way to actually because if you were to put the value of all the condos in Ontario into one asset value category, there's a heck of a lot of money there, a lot of value.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

So where can we go in now really looking on increasing the returns based on this aggregate equity value, right? Like I know we're all different and we're all individual, but could there be more creative ways that are liquid, that are safe, but that are really well managed? Like if you have a, for example, a portfolio manager of a fund, how do they look at things? You know, how do the teachers' pension plan look at assets?

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

There is a lot that we could do and that we could grow in. So I think it's that shift in mindset. This is my investment. So how are we growing it? How are we stopping erosion? How are we making sure that it sustains for its lifetime? Right. And then even when it comes to the end of lifetime, because there are condos coming up for that, what's the plan? Because I think this is where the act is not sophisticated enough in creating a mechanism to exit and quickly and redevelop the land, for example. Right? We have old condos in Toronto and tracts of land where we could actually create maybe six more condos on that same space than what's there today.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

It's it's service land. Right. It already has municipality, it has it already. It's shovel ready. And I got looked at her rooms like I had 10 heads, and they said, Well, there's no end of life. I was like, There's an end of life to everything. Yep. I was like, commercial asset managers know that. They plan for it, the banks plan for it. Right. So why aren't we helping those owners to look down the road?

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yes. And I think this is where work with the provincial governments, uh, the provincial government in Ontario could really work well. Because the thing is, too, there are buildings that are old that are environmentally inefficient, right? And so Yes, that's a really nice way of putting it together. But what could happen is if there was a way to allow for the redevelopment in an efficient, um, cost-effective way that could create more density, but better environmental footprints, then that would be a win on many levels for the society that condos are a part of at the pro municipal and provincial level. But also it could create housing, affordable housing as well. And you know, the operation costs would be divided, let's say, instead of by one condo over big tracts of land, it could be six condos, right? So I think that there's a societal benefit too in good planning, right? And and not just taking advantage of, oh, that's a lot of taxpayers, let's, you know, build another condo. Let's try to actually think about that taxpayer, right? And as a fourth level of government, and I'm gonna be a bit controversial here, I think better tax treatment for condos is really important. We get downloaded with a lot of costs. You know, we pay for courts, but we are really now more focused on the tribunal as our access point.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

But I still, as a taxpayer, pay for the courts, right? So I should have access to everything. But the other thing is too, if I'm gonna take care of water treatment facilities, if I'm gonna take care of garbage, if I'm gonna do some of the work and have it downloaded to me at the fourth level of government, then the unit owners are putting their after-tax dollars and common expenses into those infrastructure pieces that they would usually get from the municipality. And I think after-tax dollars is a very important concept here. So is there a way that we can actually serve by getting better tax rebates for condos and getting them the ability and the recognition for the work that they're doing and saving the municipality, right? Because I also don't think that we should double dip against condos.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

No.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

And I think across Ontario, you know, CCI has successfully in certain chapters gotten those rebates. But I think it's something we do need to talk to other levels of government about.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

I I think you're absolutely correct. And essentially, is they're they're subsidizing the governmental services and paying for them again. Correct. So they're paying into the taxes for the services they're truly not using that you would expect for that tax base. Yep. And then they're spending their after-tax money to have the condo do the work. Yes. Right? So on top of that, those monies now can't be used for true condo living concepts. It can't be used for other parts of the con the money's being allocated to I'll just use garbage as a management, garbage, composting, all that. Um, so if anybody who's listening, um, I don't have Doug's cell phone, Mr. Ford, but if anybody knows it, send it to Patricia and I. Because condominiums, and I'm gonna use COVID as an example. When COVID happened, um there was a number of our chapters and people in the condo world, and governmental bodies went, oh, we forgot about condos. Oh, right. So we dealt with government, we dealt with businesses, we dealt with homes. Well, condos are a mix of both, so what do we do? So chapters engage them, we all engage them, and there was this dialogue, and it was great, and then after COVID, they kind of left it alone.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Like we've solved garbage management problems, many condos, composting, yes, um, asbestos management in a residential building, which a lot of commercial landlords can't do. They should come. There is a dialogue and an and an information we can share.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

So I I think you're absolutely correct. I think the diagonal needs to be there. They need to recognize that condominal living is different. It's the same but different. There should be considerations for what we bring to the table and for the tax law. I think that's a huge thing.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Exactly. And I think as well, condominiums are economic engines, right? They're economic engines in communities. If you think of your, you know, sometimes we are offended by the 200 unit condo that's coming up. But then I ask myself, so how many jobs is that condominium generating? How many businesses is it supporting? Is it creating restaurant, you know, demands? What's going on? And, you know, as we see older generations um age and move out of, let's say, bigger urban centers and into different parts of the province, there are still going to be demands for services. So I think what we should also be doing is looking at the benefits that condominiums bring in actually generating economics in and good things in our province and looking collectively at how many jobs do we create, how many businesses, you know, whether your landscape or your cleaning services or your property management, how much do we generate, right? And I think that also should be recognized as a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Absolutely, because if you think, and and again, I'm gonna use an average neighborhood has a couple hundred homes, they're spread out, a lot of land. You can put on the same footprint two or three condo developments. So we're thinking, say, a couple hundred doors. Yeah, that's up to six hundred doors. Like you said, it creates employment, continuity, it it puts more people, more pocketbooks, more wallets, more cars, more people going into businesses and supporting local on a smaller footprint. So from an environmental standpoint, convenient living, which is controversial, an environmental standpoint, you're building up, if we're looking mid or high rise, even townhome complexes.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Right. So we can add value to municipalities. We can add value where we are. And I think that's another good dialogue to have with municipalities and talk about, you know, how do we build businesses around us and how do we establish, you know, help people grow so that they have jobs, right? So that even living is affordable. These are all things that, you know, I think are concentrated on a micro level in the our condo industry. We deal with macro issues and micro issues.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

All day long. Right. We deal with all the you and I spoke briefly about labor law and did different legislative bodies. And the convenian world is its own little nucleus. And I think that at the governments, different levels, um, and we're seeing some in Ottawa actually, with with our Minnesota, you know, municipal uh politicians with the you know the Ontario election coming up in the fall, yes, um, they're seeing that there is a dialogue with the condo world. Yes. And and to give a shout out to the vendors who deal in the condo space, which is the lawyers and the engineers, and that is sure, we also understand that dialogue from a business ownership standpoint and as owners in it. And I think if they reached out to us, I think we could really up that dialogue up that game.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah, and if you think about how many people are unit owners in a condo, that's a pretty large voice across Canada, right? And I think Ontario's seeing its expansion, growth, explosion of condos.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

And so there are a lot of people that can benefit from the voice of CCI and CCI's thinking. And, you know, in Ottawa, I know that Eastern Ontario Chapter has done phenomenal work for decades in building knowledge, but also bringing important topics to the attention of the parties that need that information. And we have to keep doing that. I think you're right. We're in an election time, we need to think about those things. But for the betterment of, you know, and this is the interesting thing. I don't think it's just the betterment of condos.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

I actually think it's for the betterment of our collective society in Ontario.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

All the neighboring communities, everybody who lives nearby, the community that's been there for 30, 40 years. Yeah. We're all neighbors.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Yes, exactly. And I think that's what we need to start seeing is our strengths and leveraging those more powerfully, right? And I think that, you know, there is there's a ways to go. There are hot topics, there are going to be hot topics, but we can find solutions together. Like, and I, you know, I brought up aging in in place. Well, that would be great to coordinate with the government of Ontario to talk about health care and what do how can we serve seniors, for example, that have decided they're going to stay at home as they age. Absolutely. You know, now we talk about palliative care. Well, are we geared up for that? You know, these are conversations we need to have on behalf of our owners with the people that run these bigger institutions to coordinate our resources because that's the other thing I see. You know, if the condos, for example, have more people aging in place, well, isn't that a good thing in terms of it puts less pressure on public institutions? Absolutely. Right. And so, how do we leverage that value back to the condos that are taking care, or you know, creating environments where people are feeling comfortable to live there and age? Are there government rebates, are there bonuses back to the communities to support their initiatives if they have Nork or they have a hospital in, come and educate unit owners? There are things we can do, right, to make the system overall of healthcare, for example, even stronger.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Well, they they talk about the healthcare environment. So let's use a traditional, you know, neighborhood where you've got a number of houses, right? If you have a social worker or personal service worker going house to house, yeah, the time and logistics are going back and forth. If you knew you had a condo, say a tower or a townhome complex that had, say, 30 owners aging in place.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

It sounds like a small logistic. They're going up and down one elevator. They could do all the visits, they can spend more time with the people and less traveling logistically.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

So there's a greater opportunity to provide more in-person support to allow them the dignity of aging in place. Yes. And it allows that infrastructure of that support to not have to take on more cost logistics.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

I agree. And my dad is 96, and maintaining his dignity and his independence has been one of our goals as a family. And, you know, we're going to see, you know, we've got some great people who are living a long time.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

And we can meet them where they are, but with the governments, for example, dialoguing with us and giving us access to resources or creating resources that can serve that effectively in a concentrated way. So smart, right? So efficient. And it makes it, you know, community by community, yes, but it's gives a quality of life, like you said, to those who are. And that's what it is, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Whether it's convenient living or traditional detached home or wherever you're living on a houseboat, it's about the dignity of residing where you choose to reside. And the condo community allows that support. The mechanism for support is existing within those communities.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Exactly. And we're thinking, you know, we're thinking at the fourth level, but we're thinking at the high and connecting with the higher levels that control a lot of these pieces. But having a meaningful dialogue is a good thing, I think.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

And in things like CCI and the chapters and our conferences and that are critical for people to it's I always joke and uh peers in mind when we go to conferences, it's the hallway conversations, right? So the panels are amazing, the sessions are great, but I think you and I have had some great dialogue walking between sessions.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Absolutely, because we are our intent, you know, our awareness. Is sparked and then we take it further, right? When we have the opportunity to sit down and have lunch and talk with directors that are at the conference, get their perspective, we have really meaningful conversations that then CCI takes back and actually develops education or talks to third parties about important issues. Because what I've really admired about CCI, CCI, you know, during the insurance crisis, took initiatives, talked to the Insurance Bureau of Canada, co-authored a paper with them, really got them aware about condos. And then even in the pandemic, CCI again, all the chapters took the lead, did the dialogue, created protocols, webinars, supported communities free of charge. And I think that's where the value of membership is really important for CCI. If people want us to continue to do the work, we need the members to be supporting the chapters.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Absolutely. And the members are we we want more members. We want more voices.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

It's it's the advocacy we do throughout the different chapters and on a national level is something that we always joke is people in th till things go wrong, people don't always realize that the volunteers do.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Um but I and I will give this is I'm gonna say this as a thank you. I know the work you do on the different chapters and at a national level. So I will say I got involved at National a number of years ago and my eyes were open like the Wizard of Oz behind the scenes. And so I will say thank you because you do give a lot to the community of the condo world, uh, more beyond than would be typically expected of someone. So I will say that thank you for the time you give to our chapters and national.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

It's uh yeah, you know I'm a little passionate, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Just a little bit, just a little bit about the condo sphere.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Just feel sorry for Richard. That's all I think.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

I do feel sorry for Richard. Um I actually, Richard and I sat on my first ever committee was education at CCI. We went for lunch, and I was like, what there was like a whole agenda, and I was like, this is not a committee I'm used to. Yeah, it was fantastic, but um so we love what we do. It it's fantastic, and the condo world has so much growth and opportunity for people to get involved as a owner, as a director, as a vendor.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Um, so we got a few minutes left in in our time, and I really wish we I would have booked another hour. Um this is the time where Patricia, I'm gonna say the camera's yours, the mic is yours. What is something that you want to say to any particular party or any particular body within the conosphere? This is the time for you to for you to have your voice out there.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Okay, I'm gonna go to left field here, but something that I'm a little passionate about. I think as we start to look at the evolution of status certificates, I think we really need to think about what kind of risk we're putting on the plates of the condominiums. I know there's an intention perhaps to expand the content of a status certificate, and the question in my mind will be why? What are we doing when we do that? You know, recently I came across an interesting circumstance where a property management company was perhaps facing a reprimand because they did not include a non-prescribed document in a status certificate. And to me, that was a misinterpretation of the legislation. And I think status certificates are very powerful pieces of information at a moment in time, and we have to minimize the scope of risk that we are exposing condominium boards to as well as property managers, right? When we have a really long list of additional information, we have to ask, is it adding value? Now I want to protect the consumer, of course, and I think it's important to protect the consumer, but at the same time, the purchaser lawyers need to do their work and they need to do the exploration with the information they're given. So I'm I'm just curious where this next set of legislative changes and the stakeholder meetings are gonna go. And I think CCI is going to do a great job of putting together good value propositions on the pros and cons of expansion and uh, you know, uh delineation of more information in the status certificate. But I think it's gonna be really hope important that we think through the consequences of that.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

I I agree, and I find that in general, and I'll speak to the real estate sphere, um, statisticates are often misunderstood and misused.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Uh with the best intentions.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Um, I think clarity, education, and to your point, sometimes documents and information ends up in there and it's out of context. Because to your point, not everybody understands what they're reading. Yes. And I'll give it a perfect example. You see the reserve fund, you see that it has, I'll make up a number of$100,000. Correct. And I've heard many parties say, Well, there's not enough funding in the reserve fund, let's walk away.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

And I say, Well, did you look at that? They did brand new windows in the tower. They put in four new elevators, they did their roof in the past. Well, what does that mean? Well, they've used the funds as allocated, and if you look at the documents, it says they're bringing the fund back up to where it needs to be for the next five, six, seven years. That alone is a big misunderstanding. So the more information we add, is it helpful or is it a hindrance when it may just need to be more clear on what's being provided?

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Well, exactly. It's it's understanding the data at that moment in time. And, you know, also not putting it on the property manager or the corporation to interpret that the value of that data for the purchaser. That's where the lawyers need to actually be said, you go read the status certificate, order a new one the day before closing, or so that it arrives on time, so you can inform your client of any changes. Now, you know, section 12 is very powerful, and we should put in information that we need to put in uh to protect the condo. But things evolve and change. So we have to be really smart in how we actually do this work, right? And I think that's where, you know, this next set of rounds uh, you know, and legislative change on status certificate will be very interesting, you know, to see what are the pros and the cons.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

I I I'm always excited to see what comes out when you guys send out your firm and CCI and other firms send out the let I I'm sitting there, my wife's like, what are you reading? I'm like, there's another email here, but legislative change. She's like, exciting, exciting. Um, because it it's the condo world is a living experience, a living document. So yeah, um, I mean, we could do a whole nother episode just on status.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Add certificates, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

Um, Patricia, thank you so much for your time today. I I appreciate your time, the volunteerism you give back to the condo community, to CCI. Um, for those of you out there, check out Patricia's episode she's got coming out. We've got other stuff coming down the wire for CCI Eastern Ontario. Check out our other chapters as well. If you want to give a shout out to anything Heronia is doing, now's the time. Let us know what you guys are doing. Oh, we'd love to share and what you guys are doing for events and stuff. So check out their website, CCI uh Heronia. Um, again, everyone, thank you for listening. The more dialogue we have, the better our community of condos becomes. Um, everyone, have a great day. Thank you so much, Mike.

unknown 51:32

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

Thanks for tuning into the condo pod, your source for all things condo in Eastern Ontario. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and share this podcast with your fellow condo community. For more resources and upcoming events, visit us at ccieasternOntario.ca. Until next time, stay informed, stay connected, and keep your community strong.