.png)
THE Condo Pod
Thanks for tuning in to The Condo Pod
Hosted by Michael Lewicki, Joshua VanHooydonk, and Nancy Houle, The Condo Pod is brought to you by the Canadian Condominium Institute – Eastern Ontario Chapter.
This is your go-to podcast for all things condo in Eastern Ontario—from governance and legal updates to maintenance, management, and community living. Whether you’re a condo owner, director, or industry professional, you’ll find insights, stories, and expert advice to help you navigate the world of condominiums with confidence.
Subscribe now and never miss an episode!
THE Condo Pod
Paving the way for Condo Law - The Trailblazers Series
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Thanks for tuning in to THE Condo Pod Hosted by Michael Lewicki, Joshua VanHooydonk, and Nancy Houle, The Condo Pod is brought to you by the Canadian Condominium Institute – Eastern Ontario Chapter.
This is your go-to podcast for all things condo in Eastern Ontario—from governance and legal updates to maintenance, management, and community living. Whether you’re a condo owner, director, or industry professional, you’ll find insights, stories, and expert advice to help you navigate the world of condominiums with confidence.
Subscribe now and never miss an episode!
Thank you to our gold sponsors
Elia Associates
UpperBee
Condominium Management Group
Thank you to our silver sponsors
Keller Engineering
Davidson Houle Allen LLP
Eastern Ontario Property Management Group
Sentinel Management Group
Thank you to our Bronze Sponsors
Atrens Counsel
Jani King
CWB Maxium Financial
Normac
Nova Property Management Experts
Lacasse Building Solutions
Parliament Cleaning Group
3D Security Services
DanCan Electrical LTD
DISCLAIMER
Presenters, the Canadian Condominium Institute and its representatives will not be held liable in any respect whatsoever for any statement or advice presented herein. These presentations should not be relied upon as a professional opinion or as an authoritative or comprehensive answer in any case. Professional advice should be obtained after discussing all particulars applicable in the specific circumstances to obtain an opinion or report capable of absolving condominium directors from liability [under s. 37 (3) (b) of the Condominium Act, 1998]. Presenters' views expressed are not necessarily those of the Canadian Condominium Institute.
Follow us on socials @ccieasternontario
Follow us on socials @ccieasternontario
Welcome to the Condo Pod, brought to you by the Canadian Condominium Institute of Eastern Ontario. This is your go-to space for all things condo in Eastern Ontario. From governance and legal updates to maintenance, management, and community living, the Condo Pod tackles key issues affecting our condominium community. We are diving into topics that matter most to condo owners, directors, and professionals across the region. Today I'm really excited to introduce a new series for CCI Eastern Ontario Podcast, The Trailblazers. Just as the name suggests, our guests for this series will be those who blazed the trail, created the path for others to follow, were the first leaders in the condominium industry. These individuals paved the way and they set the standard for the rest of us to strive to achieve every single day on a daily basis. Today I'm very excited to have as my first guest on the Trailblazer series, someone who's a household name in the world of condos. One of the godfathers of condominium industry and condominium law, James Davidson. Jim has blazed the trail with so many firsts in condominium law, but I'm not going to tell you about them now because we're going to go through them as we unfold through today's stories. On a personal level, as my mentor and now partner at Davidson Who Allen, Jim is the person who taught me condominium law. We've been working together since even before I was called to the bar. He's also the person for responsible who is responsible for introducing me to CCI. I remember my first ever CCI conference. I remember following Jim around and meeting all sorts of people, and he knew everyone, and everyone knew him. And the passion and the shared knowledge, the excitement, the genuine respect and care that each other all the people had for each other really showed me that this is the community that I want to be involved in. So having worked together for almost 25 years, there's so much I could say. But instead, we're going to let these stories naturally unfold in our podcast today. Jim, thank you so much for being here today.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you so much, Nance, and uh really appreciate that introduction. Some of those kind words that you had to offer. I am uh I'm really excited. I'm touched to be here, and particularly with you. Um I I'm I'm honored to be considered uh one of the Trailblazers. I'm really delighted about that. Um I remember when you were my mentee. I don't any longer think of you as a mentee, I have to say. Uh, but now just delighted to be your partner and delighted to do this with you. Thanks, Nance.
SPEAKER_03It's gonna be a fun session. I'm excited. So almost every single person I know in the condominium industry fell into this world. It's not really a path that you wake up and say, I'm gonna be a condo person. Obviously, as a trailblazer, this had to have been your experience. So tell us a little bit about how this all started. Where did it begin?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's really interesting, those choice of words uh that you fall into it, because that is definitely what happened to me. Uh, it was 1982 when I articled with the law firm of Neligan Power, as it was then, uh, the two senior partners, John Nelligan, Denny Power. Um, now that firm is Neligan O'Brien Payne but I articled with them in uh 1982, and I had many mentors there at that firm, the Neligan firm, uh, but my main mentor was Janice Payne. And um Janice was uh just uh sort of starting the first Ottawa condominium law practice at the time, and it was a growing practice. And so when they were at Nelligans thinking about hiring possibilities, whether or not I might be hired on as a lawyer when I did I was called to the bar in 1984, uh they were checking with their uh different lawyers in the firm as to whether or not they could keep me busy. And Janice said that she could uh she thought that this new condominium law practice could maybe keep me partially busy. And it was mainly because of that that I was hired at Nelegance to uh to be a lawyer there. In the first few years, I had a general practice. I was doing uh real estate, uh corporate, even family law in the first couple years and condominium law. But by year three, I was doing 100% condominium law, and Janice and I were working away on this new condominium law practice.
SPEAKER_03And I know that condos are still a soft spot for Janice. Uh she uh she helped us all get involved in this industry.
SPEAKER_01She she did. And uh, well, she is uh she was and still is uh my mentor uh in condominium law.
SPEAKER_03So speaking of Janice, then I think she may have had a bit of a role in you finding CCI. So tell us a little bit about how you found CCI.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in terms of CCI, uh CCI was uh uh in its infancy at that time.
SPEAKER_03Hard to believe given where we are now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, it was it was rolling, but it was in its infancy. And uh Janice soon, uh after I started, I think it was very shortly that she became the president of CCI National. And she was uh a big believer in CCI, she was very much engaged in CCI, and because of that, I became involved in CCI Ottawa chapter. It was called the Ottawa chapter then, not Eastern Ontario chapter as it is.
SPEAKER_03We've grown a bit since then.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um and so I uh got on the board and uh then was on the board of CCI Ottawa for I don't know, 20, 25 years after that. I also uh eventually got onto the board of uh CCI National and was on that board, I can't remember exactly now, but for maybe eight years. Uh you know, that was the Toronto Centered National Board. I I I I was uh thinking this morning of some of the people uh that I worked with on the CCI Ottawa board, some of my old friends on CCI Ottawa. And I'll just name some of them. I listed them here: David Duncan, the late Noreen Harris, Jim Ritchie of Dell, Dalt Wilson of Wilson Management, Ian Davidson. Um and what I really think about when I think about some of those people was the camaraderie that we shared on the CCI board. It was it was really fun because we were working on so many new things, and there were so many new ideas, so many new ways in which to um convey information about condominiums, mainly to the board members and also to managers and other experts, but you know, seminars that were starting, that we were starting to do, and um newsletters that got started back then, that sort of thing. But the camaraderie, the work together on the board was just fantastic. And we all got to know one another really well because of that. And then at National, there were uh what what National really made me think about was not only the camaraderie, but the guidance of really great experts. Um people that I I considered to be industry, you know, condominium industry leaders. And I I again made some notes of some of the people, uh the people that I had such regard for and learned so much from. John Fine, Pat Cassidy, uh the late Ron Danks, Mario Dale, Harry Herskowitz, Jerry Hyman, uh Alvin Rosenberg, who was our basically our leading judge in condominium matters, ultimately, uh Mark Friedman, David Medhurst. Uh a community of fantastic experts, guides, leaders. Uh now I had Janice uh, you know, at the firm who was just a fantastic guide and a tremendous guide just on how to be a lawyer, but also had the benefit through CCI of all of these other sources of information and knowledge, which was uh really fun.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think it does stem back to the leadership, the guidance, the camaraderie, and the feeling of family that you get with CCI. And I love that you mentioned uh Pat Cassidy, because now we have Devin Cassidy, who is the current national president. Right. So that nothing speaks family in CCI uh like that uh that trail along there. So it's it's just a fantastic opportunity to learn, get to know people, and and be guided by the leaders industry. Okay, well, turning back then to your early days, what was it like practicing condominium law when you first started?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a it's a really a terrific question. I knew you were gonna ask this question, and it's uh it's a fun question because it was so different from today. Uh, just really remarkable how much different things are today. So when I started out, we were uh practicing law with typewriters, ordinary mail. Um, one of the things that I always laugh about is we we had carbon copies. So you know you see on your email a CC, which to us today just means you're sending a copy, but it's a CC, it's a carbon copy, or the it comes from the concept. But in our when I started, a carbon copy was a carbon copy created with a piece of carbon paper.
SPEAKER_03I'll actually fess up. When I joined, we were still using carbon copies every now and then. So I'm dating myself a little bit with that statement as well.
SPEAKER_01Well, there you go, Nats. I didn't know we were still doing that once you started. But anyway, uh faxing was just getting started. Uh of course there was no internet, um, at least not in a business sense. We weren't using it that way. No emailing, no blogging. The condominium act was the 1978 act, which was uh uh uh miles shorter than the 1998 condominium act, which arrived in 2001. Uh there was no CAO, uh no condominium authority of Ontario, of course, which came even much later than 2001, no CAT, no condominium authority tribunal, no mandatory mediation or arbitration. Those started with the 1998 Act in 2001. So condominium disputes were decided by court application basically exclusively. And so we were doing applications, we were running off to court, um uh not running off to cat, not doing mediation and arbitration.
SPEAKER_03And going to the actual physical library to do research.
SPEAKER_01Exactly right.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I remember those days.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so uh it was really different. And um I I think today of the way we practice law, and I feel for myself, for instance, I feel like I'd be lost without email. It's sort of the way I guess we all communicate mainly with clients, not exclusively, but uh mainly, and it's so fast and it's so immediate and so um dynamic in a way. Uh I and I I I do enjoy email uh mostly.
SPEAKER_03There's a blessing and a curse side of that for sure. And I know some of our industry professionals uh wish at times email could stop with the hundreds that come in every day. But it is a blessing as well.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes it's a blessing. It's a it's a it's a really fast way to get a message to someone um without having to reach them on the phone, without sending a letter that takes two weeks to be received, and then you wait another two weeks to get uh commentary back. The world is a totally different place. And uh uh it's it's amazing the way humans sort of adjust to all these changes. And now I don't even think about the way it used to be, of course, and none of us do um very much, but uh yeah, so here we are in this different world. I wonder what it'll be like as I say these things. I wonder what it would be like in 20 years from now.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'll still be practicing so I'll let you know. I'll let you know. So obviously there are a lot of different areas of law, and you talked to her a little bit early on about the various things that that you put your hands into a little bit early on. So, what made you fall in love with condominium law and stick with it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, another great question is uh I I think I've I think I've been fascinated, still fascinated today about community and about how community works and about how uh people figure out how to share um space, how to share amenities, how to share uh tr problems, issues. And this is really what uh condominium is all about. I believe that uh in many ways condominium has arrived and grown. I think it's gonna continue to grow, because people have become more and more ready, particularly in the West, more and more ready to share and to be in community and to work together. And that to me is what uh condominium is all about. And I've been fascinated at the um balance that needs to be struck between individual rights and rights of the community and obligations of the community to the individual and how all these work things work together. And this is what uh condominium is all about, and it's a it's a fascinating legal exercise to figure out how that community structure needs to work. So that's one thing I think that um uh I fell in love with at the time and I'm still enjoying today, still enjoying today. Um the other thing that was really exciting at the time is that condominiums had not been around very long when I started to get involved. They had been around for a little more than a decade, but but the idea of it and how it works and all that was new. And uh so we were we were working on all sorts of new concepts and new ideas, exploring these things, and it was really fun to be part of the evolution of it. It was tremendously exciting to go to a court case, to go to argue in court about a new issue that had never been thought about by a at least by a judge, and then to try to see in many ways, we we all felt like we were making new law all the time. And so some of the things I list here, uh, we were exploring the decision-making responsibilities of the board, the board being the representative of the community, like the the the um the decision maker for the group as a whole, put it that way. So we were looking at the responsibilities of the board, the fiduciary duties of developers, what were their responsibilities to purchasers and to the condominium corporation? Very interesting stuff. The requirement that condominium corporations treat owners with fairness and reasonableness, um sort of to balance the authority of the board, very interesting. How rules and bylaws had to be reasonable, but declarations did not have to be reasonable, but are still subject to human rights. So declarations in many respects like a contract, a deal made between the members of the community that's binding, even if it happens to be unfair, but still subject to human rights. And also, though, subject to error. You could correct errors, so you couldn't you couldn't be unfair to people through an error in the declaration or an inconsistency. But uh also the unique obligation of condominium owners to cover all costs that they caused to the community. And this was a concept that grew up in the early years of condominium law and that was different from most members of society who, when they had disputes, they were responsible for costs if they lost, but not all the costs normally, normally. But that concept was not uh applied in a condominium community where the courts felt, and I frankly agreed, that if the community is harmed or expense is caused by one of the members of the community, the deal is that member uh protects all of the innocent members of the community from the cost. So that was the concept back then. It's what I grew up with. I found it persuasive. But all of these things were in their infancy when uh I was starting out. It was it was new, it was uncertain, it was mysterious. Um and we had the shorter condominium act, it didn't provide anywhere near the number of answers.
SPEAKER_03Or the number of uh issues.
SPEAKER_01Well true. Yeah, the the the longer act that we have now uh inevitably, when you expand legislation, it creates more issues. But uh in those days, we were trying to fill in the gaps that existed in the legislation. It was really fun. Um, there was a great deal of room for argument and interpretation, and that's what we were doing. We were filling it in and trying to make condominiums work and to make them make sense, and to, you know, the whole concept of consumer protection and uh the idea that you interpreted the obligations and the rights in the condominium setting with a with a view to consumer protection. All of that was in there. It was really uh uh I think about it now, and I totally understand why I fell in love with it.
SPEAKER_03Makes sense to me. I mean, I I still am in love with all those concepts, and some of those concepts are still near and dear to my heart because a lot of them is are what I grew up with as well, and they're only changing recently, and so I think we'll talk a little bit more about those later on. The early days were essentially carving a path through the condo forest, is what you what you guys were all doing. And so there must be one particular case that really stands out in your mind. So, do you want to share a particular case with us?
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, uh you you mentioned this to me before we we sat here, we're sitting here today, and uh so I want to talk about a case that um was uh one not uh there were lots of interesting cases in the early years, but this is one that I think really shows some of this evolution that I'm talking about and shows the struggles of a condominium community trying to figure out how to deal with a really serious problem that they had and and how they got through it. And so I've made I've made my notes here so that I don't um miss anything or get anything wrong. And but this is the story of CCC number one.
SPEAKER_03And and the interesting part is it's CCC one. CCC one we're talking about firsts a little bit earlier on, and we'll talk about a few more firsts later on, but CCC one, so the first condo in Ottawa.
SPEAKER_01The first condo in Ottawa in the Carlton region, Carlton Condominium Corporation number one. And in fact, it was the first, as far as I'm told, first high-rise condominium in Canada. Not the first condo in Canada, but the first high-rise condominium in Canada. And uh CCC number one is an 11-story high-rise brick construction. The brick walls were constructed using the standard cavity wall construction method. So, what this means is there was a backup block wall, so the the block wall, let's say, on the inside of the uh exterior walls, then the cavity, so there's a space, and then the outer brick wall. And the brick is supported on steel shelf plates, one-quarter inch steel, at each slab, and steel brick ties between the brick and the block walls, steel ties holding the brick, uh connecting the brick to the backup wall. So the brick basically hangs on the building, it hangs on these steel elements, and this is uh typical of most, in my experience anyway, most brick construction. The cavity in the middle serves as a water removal system. So brick is porous, rain water passes through the brick, when it gets to the inside of the brick, it reaches the cavity, runs down the inside of the brick, and it is taken out of the building through flashings and weep holes. And this is known as Nance, I know you're familiar, rain screen. Water comes through the brick and is directed back to the outside. So the brick is like a screen. And then the rain that comes through gets weeped back out of the building. That's the whole idea.
SPEAKER_03Not waterproof, but watershedding.
SPEAKER_01Watershedding, exactly. Right. Now, at the time CCC number one was built, this was the late 1960s, urea foam, UFI, was considered at that time a good form of insulation. So at CCC number one, the builder filled that cavity in the brick wall. That cavity was filled with urea foam. Now, quite apart from the health concerns involving urea foam, UFI uh those are, I think, open for debate. But anyway, the water still came through the brick, and the UFI in the cavity got wet.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Right? So when UFI gets wet, it disintegrates into a corrosive, an acid. That's what happened at CCC number one.
SPEAKER_03Not good for bricks.
SPEAKER_01Not good for steel. Or not good for steel.
SPEAKER_03Fair, not good for either one.
SPEAKER_01So yeah. So the UFI at CCC number one, fairly soon, started to corrode the steel plates and ties that were holding the brick onto the building. Now the board discovered the problem in the late 1970s and sued the builder. I don't know, I don't remember exactly how it was discovered in the late 1970s, but they discovered it and they sued the builder. That claim was settled for$40,000. The board settled because the board believed that the problem could be controlled by increased caulking and brick pointing to reduce the amount of water going through the brick. That was their thinking at the time. It turned out that was wrong. In 1983, remember, I was just between articles and practicing law. 1983, it was clear that the problem was still not under control. It was worsening. The engineers then, the corporations, condominium corporations engineers, said the brick has to be replaced likely sooner than later. So you can't wait, is what they said. You can't wait too long, or you're going to have a big problem.
SPEAKER_00It's happening at the Kingston area, and it's your one-stop shop for everything condominium. We're diving into governance, law, insurance, common elements, all the movement parts that keep your condo community running smoothly. Or at least obviously better at night. But it's a great chance to connect with others in the condo world who get it. Thinking about sponsoring or exhibiting, now is the time. Spots are going fast. Register today at CCIEasternOntario.ca.
SPEAKER_01Furthermore, there was a government UFE removal program at the time that would pay several hundred thousand dollars of cost to replace the brick and therefore get rid of the UFI.
SPEAKER_03Sounds like a pretty good deal.
SPEAKER_01Right. And the board decided let's do it. Let's replace the brick, get the grant, the cost after the government grant would be about$4,000 per unit. A considerable special assessment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But the board decided to put the question to a vote of the owners.
SPEAKER_03Oh dear.
SPEAKER_01And as I said, this was in 1983.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And the idea of the board's mandate responsibility to make the decision was just developing at that time. I'm sure the board at the time thought that a vote was a good idea, was maybe even necessary legally. That's probably what they thought. And that sort of misstep, I think, would be much less likely to happen today because we're we're through more of the evolution. More to come, I know, but we we're past this issue now.
SPEAKER_03And the legislative provisions address that more so now than they would have back then.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So it was put to a vote of the owners. And the owners voted no. Oh boy. No brick replacement. The owners said, we can see the brick, it looks fine, the engineers must be wrong.
SPEAKER_03I can just imagine our engineers in today's community listening to this podcast and saying, oh no, what were they thinking?
SPEAKER_01What were they thinking? Um so the brick and the UFI were not replaced in 1983. Soon thereafter, the government grant program, the available several hundred thousand dollars, was canceled.
SPEAKER_03Oh boy.
SPEAKER_01So it's sort of it's sort of a classic.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it it's it's almost a comedy of errors at this point.
SPEAKER_01It is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh and now, six years later, 1989, corporations' engineers again inspected the brick and found that the quarter-inch steel shelf plates had corroded so much by then that they could be broken by hand.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's a little scary.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they said the brick had to be replaced without delay, and the cost was then going to be 20,000 per unit. Oh. So we went from 4,000 up to 20,000 per unit. Now, by this time, 1989, I I started as a lawyer in 1984. By this time, I was then acting for CCC number one. So this is where it gets exciting for me.
SPEAKER_03I guess it did get exciting.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I attended a difficult owner's meeting. You can, well, many listening to this would understand what that meeting might be like. I told the owners that they didn't get to vote, that this is a board decision, and the board had made the decision, which to me was the only decision that they could make. This is what I had told them. And the board had a duty to decide this about the brick.
SPEAKER_03Now it nowadays that wouldn't even be a question. Of course it's their duty.
SPEAKER_01Wouldn't be a question.
SPEAKER_03Wouldn't be a question.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So the owner said, um, but we voted, Mr. Davidson, in 1983. Uh, if you are right about this, why did we vote in 1983?
SPEAKER_03Oh goodness.
SPEAKER_01And they were uh this question was expressed to me in fairly firm terms at the meeting. I said, look, I can't really answer that question. But my advice today in 1989 is that this is a board decision and owners don't vote to decide whether or not to replace the brick. Uh I remember that many owners at the meeting were not very happy with me.
SPEAKER_03I know we we've all been to a few of those, so we can imagine the climate in that meeting that day.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Uh there was there were a lot of raised voices that meeting. Um there was a dyn it was a very dynamic meeting. Uh now there's there's more to the story. It um it is actually, it became and was a even more complicated story. Pro there were problems with estoppel certificates, which we are now, which are now status certificates in our current legislation. There were claims against previous board members. Uh there were insurance coverage issues under the DO policy, in theory, protecting those board members. Uh there was there was a serious question about whether or not they were covered by insurance.
SPEAKER_03Scary time for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Uh but the story has a good ending, which I'm going to end with. The brick was successfully replaced, and as far as I know, it is still strong today. No UFI in the cavity. No UFI in the cavity. And so it's uh now to me that's a classic case, and it was um it's a good example of the kind of thing that was going on in the early years, in the early years. Um and I and uh I as I was uh preparing for this podcast, I was thinking to myself, no wonder, no wonder I found it exciting and uh loved condominium law. It's so dynamic. And not only are is the issue interesting, like the the physics of it, the whole thing, but the dynamic of the community and the s suffering of those owners, um, and trying to help them find their way through that difficult problem. It's it's a privilege really to be involved in it. I'm sure Nance, you must feel that way.
SPEAKER_03I absolutely do. I always say when people ask me what I love most about condominium law, it's the ability to work with communities in crisis and to empathize with that community and to really explore options to bring them from crisis to resolution as effectively as you can and as empathetically as you can, because these are people in their homes. And that is a big difference between condos and single-family homes. You're it's your potentially your biggest investment of your life, but it's also where you live every day. And these communities are invested in the the financial portion, but also the harmony of their community. And going to these meetings can be very challenging for everybody involved, whether you're the board member, whether you're the owner, whether you're the consultant. There's a lot of emotion there because of all of these aspects that we've talked about. And so I find it incredibly fascinating. I know everybody that I've spoken with as legal counsel in the industry really enjoys that part as well. It's it's really, as you said, it's dynamic and it's captivating. And you feel good working with people who want to help.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's what this is about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it really is. It's uh yeah, uh I tot fully agree. Totally agree.
SPEAKER_03The story of CCC One, wow, there's a lot of meat in that story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's a meaty story, and it was one of the one of the ones I really remember from the early years.
SPEAKER_03And I've been to a few of their meetings since then, and it's a great community, a fantastic building, so it's great to see them on the other side of those challenges. Exactly. For so many condos, we do come in when there's as legal counsel, uh, we all come in as when there's a crisis, and it's wonderful to see the community when it gets to the other side. I know there's a few uh big cases over the years in in Ottawa where there have been big special assessments, and you go to those meetings where it's challenging and people are upset there's some raised voices. But then when you go to the to see the community a few years later, whether it's two years, three years, eight years, and see the community on this other side, it's really rewarding for everybody who's involved in that process.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it sure is. It sure is. Totally agree.
SPEAKER_03So, another first I want to ask you about before we get into a couple of other memorable memorable moments you might have had. Another first is uh the condo newsletter that you were involved with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. Tell me a bit about that. Um Well, uh Janice, who I I've spoken about, she went to a conference, not a condo conference. She went to a business development conference of some sort. Like it was in about 19, I don't know, was it 1985 or 86? And she called me from the conference. I remember her calling me from the conference, and she said, Jim, she said, we've got to do a newsletter. We've got to, this is the this is the way things are done now. Um and it's funny to hear that now, because of course now we're blogging and all that's totally different, right? And we're we're exchanging information in a different way with all of our content. Yeah, podcasts and all that sort of thing. And so she said, We've got to do a uh uh this newsletter. And uh so we did, like within months, we had uh prepared what I understand was one of the first, if not the first, condominium law newsletter in Canada, and we called it Condo Law. And uh the way it was distributed is that we it was just um printed, right? This is just a printed one uh double-sided document with some stories. Uh we actually have the very first one uh framed. Uh we we have it, well, they have it at Nelligan's, and I think we have one at uh DHA as well. But um it's uh uh this document, we sent it to our clients that we had at the time by ordinary mail.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01And so Condola, that was that was another first. And uh the Condola newsletter, and uh of course, it that type of communication by lawyers is and and other types is standard stuff now, and well, not done that way anymore. I mean, done in a much more sophisticated manner now. But yeah.
SPEAKER_03It might also be, and we'd have to check our facts on this, but my uh my anecdotal information is that it might also be the first legal newsletter in Canada.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_03And if that's the case, go condo for once again blazing the trail, right? It's all of the condos are blazing the trails. So we've spoken a little bit about um your your favorite story. Well, we've spoken a lot about your favorite story. What are some of the other key highlights about your early years? And I think some of those early years, the messaging that you have from them also transfers nicely into where we are today. So I'd like to hear a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks. Uh yes, I what I what I want to mention here is um my trips to Ontario's Court of Appeal. So I went to the Court of Appeal, Ontario's Court of Appeal, six times.
SPEAKER_03Blazing the trail in law.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, there were yes, there were others, of course, lots of others going, but um it was I uh the only word I can use for it is it was fantastic. Um every time I went to the Court of Appeal, uh of course I was uh I was a little scared every time. Um but I I felt like I was in the presence of justice every time.
SPEAKER_03I love that.
SPEAKER_01And and it's really amazing. It's it's uh and it's not and and I feel that way as well. I felt that way as well in any court or any tribunal. But uh the Court of Appeal, uh Osgood Hall in Toronto is just outstanding. Um the the Law Society is in half of the building and the courts in the other, the courts uh court of appeals in the other portion of the building, but it's it's old. Uh it's been but it's been refurbished uh in character, the architecture is amazing, the courtrooms are fantastic, there's this old wood, um, there's and you've got the uh of course the the bar, you know, that uh only the members of the bar uh uh step beyond in order to address the justices. The justices um are invariably brilliant. Um the the argument is wild because what you do is you start off uh your argument for about a minute, and then then that's all you say, and you're ready with an hour's worth of argument, and then the justices are asking you the questions that matter. And uh you have to have thought about what those questions are, and you have to have answers to those questions. And so that's the score, sort of scary part because you have you hope you know what's coming. Um but but the the atmosphere, the justices, the building, the whole thing is simply awe-inspiring. And so look, I was there six times. Uh I remember them. I um I I I uh it still can give me goosebumps thinking about it. Um yeah, Court of Appeal. So that was that's one thing I wanted to mention, Ontario's Court of Appeal.
SPEAKER_03My favorite, just before you get off the Court of Appeal, my favorite appearance for me at the Court of Appeal was when I went with Janice Payne. Oh, there we are, full circle on the uh Burdett case, CCC 396 and Burdett. Janice and I headed off to the Court of Appeal. That was my first experience there. And it is a sense of awe when you walk into that courtroom and you really do feel like you're involved in something greater than you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's exactly it. And uh I I we we have to be careful not to make um law and justice uh too remote for our citizens. But on the other hand, I think it's important that they have that sense of awe. This is where decisions are made fairly, you know, without bias, without prejudice. Uh it's it's beautiful. The other thing I wanted to say about the Court of Appeal, I forgot, is that is where the buck stops for most condominium law decisions. It's very rare. There's a very few go to the Supreme Court of Canada. Yeah, just a very few. And the only would go to the Supreme Court of Canada. A property law issue, which is condominium, it's a it's a local matter, a provincial matter in general. There are only a very few that would go to the Supreme Court if they were considered to be of national interest or something like that. As you say, Nance, there are a few examples. But in general, when you go to the Ontario Court of Appeal, that's it. That's the end of the road for the condominium law issue that you're dealing with. And uh there's something sort of inspiring about that when when when it happens. So anyway, so there's that Court of Appeal. But the other thing I wanted to talk about, and you you mentioned it, is uh I wanted to talk about the meetings. And um, well, uh Nance, you know about this so well, but at the time the meetings were in person, right? They were no Zoom, nothing like that. Uh and the to me, there's uh something special about a community gathering um uh in person. I'm not saying that our method now uh uh online isn't um uh worthy. I think it's terrific, particularly when people know how to do it. Um but it's wild when you get a group together and the community is together, they're dealing with a big, expensive, frustrating, difficult issue, whatever it is, there's sometimes lots of tension. They mute there's mutual support uh too. Um the owners mainly are in the same boat, and so uh, you know, meetings that there are standing ovations, there's yelling back and forth, there's lots of tears. Um I remember a meeting, and if I'm if I'm not mistaken, you might have been there, where there was chair swinging.
SPEAKER_03That was my first ever condominium meeting, and so we'll talk really quickly about that because I I'd forgotten until you just mentioned it. That was my first ever condominium meeting, having a chair thrown at us. And I remember leaving that thinking, Oh my goodness, what did I get myself into? Oh, really? And the manager at the time saying, Welcome to condominiums. I thought, oh wow, here we go. Yeah, it's a roller coaster.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, well, that's right. And uh I I've been to meetings, I know you have too, Nance, where there's um uh security. I had a meeting where um the police had to be called.
SPEAKER_03We've had them in police stations, in fact. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I've yeah, I've been at um meetings where the manager is actually carrying a gun. So uh these are dynamic events. And I remember many, many times, and you mentioned this earlier in this podcast. I mention I remember many times driving home in the car and feeling full, feeling like you know what, I I really did tonight um help this community uh make a decision and reach closure. To me, that's one of the big, big um important. Aspects of these meetings is that hopefully they can be an avenue to closure for the community. Not always, because sometimes there's a continuing issue, right? But but that ability to reach a decision, to have closure, and to move on, I I think it's um it's a wonderful service that I got to be involved in. I know you're still really involved in. And uh I think it's a really, really important aspect of what happens in our society among condominiums. And so I uh I remember those, I remember many, many meetings for that reason.
SPEAKER_03I actually love meetings. I love condominium meetings for that exact reason is the ability to try and work with the community to bring us through a crisis, to bring us to a resolution or a decision that's gonna take us forward to the next step. And speaking about original in-person meetings, which was our only recourse at the time, and virtual meetings, there is um, I think, uh uh pros and cons on both sides, the virtual versus the the in-person meetings. For example, safety and security, you brought that up a little bit. And you know, if there's a safety and security issue, virtual might be the way to go. If we're worried that someone might bring something dangerous to the meeting, and we've had some tragic circumstances uh in the past few years where you know a virtual meeting may have been the way to go. But there are also other times where it's important to bring the community together. So I think boards think about that when they're planning on how they're going to approach a meeting. In some cases, the business can be transacted virtually online, and then you have a gathering, a social gathering, and that might give the community feel as well. So it goes back to I think your evolution, Jim, that you were talking about earlier, where you say our world has changed. And so originally we only had in-person meetings, now we have the opportunity for both, and how are we going to navigate that going forward so that it's in always the best interest of their community moving forward?
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. Really well said, Nance. And I think part of my bias is that I am nowhere near as familiar as all the modern folks are with the um the intricacies of online meeting. And uh so my uh my memory is mainly in the in-person meetings, and that's maybe why I mention it that way. So uh yeah, no, I I really support your comments.
SPEAKER_03So we're getting really close to the end of our time. We could talk for hours, there's no question about it. Before we wrap up our conversation today, I'd love to know if there's any final thoughts that you'd love to share with the community. You can be talking you can talk to anybody, you can talk to owners, directors, industry professionals, the government, the ministry, anybody you want to talk to. Do you have any final thoughts for us?
SPEAKER_01Yes, uh, I do.
SPEAKER_03I'm excited to hear them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I want to start with this that I really do think that condominiums are the way of the future. I I mentioned it sort of before. I to me, sharing makes sense. It's it's what humans are doing more and more. And and I think we're going to see more and more condominiums, more and more sharing in our society. I think this is uh I still think we're in the early stages and it's gonna grow. Uh to me, the challenge is to balance the rights and obligations of owners uh versus the rights and obligations of boards. So this is the same issue. We've I've mentioned this, this is sort of the theme of some of the things I've said. I think the the trick is to find that balance in terms of the rights of the individual owners versus the rights of the community represented by the board. So my primary pitch is strong condominium communities require strong boards. That's what I think. Um if you want strong condominium communities, provide fulsome, I'm gonna say better support and better protection for the boards. Give them the tools they need to complete the tasks, the tough tasks that they face, without being hampered or sidetracked by difficult, I'll say unreasonable owners. In my view, the pendulum has swung, I'd say over the past decade, it's swung a little too far in favor of the rights of individual owners. My experience is that a very small number of owners, what I call the two percent, can place immense stress on the board and on the entire condominium community. They can cause huge expanse, they cause huge upset in the community. It's a tiny group. And I I think that some of them are maybe not suited all that well to community living, to sharing.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01Um at least that's what I notice. That may or may not be a fair comment, but that's what I notice. They are individuals who are interested in conflict. And what worries me is that they are somewhat empowered by the legislation.
SPEAKER_03It doesn't worry just you, Jim. It worries many of us. Yeah, I think we're sharing your thoughts there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so uh so for instance, they make use of records requests excessively, they make use of excessive and unreasonable correspondence to the board members and the manager. And they make accusations, they they criticize without justification, they demand unnecessary information. Uh when it comes to disputes, my one of my concerns is that the current cost structure favors these owners over the boards. Um now, I I believe in balance. I I believe that um I believe that it it makes sense to reach out, even to difficult owners, and to try to work things out. Do your very best to try to work it out, try to find an understanding. But I find that in many cases it it's not possible, and the cost structure is no longer what it was that I grew up with. It's that the condominium corporation is expected to pay. And the community is expected to pay. And I'm just not so sure that that makes sense. I I think that um these difficult owners often avoid costs. Basic principle seems to be now that they have the right, the prerogative, to be difficult. And I'm really concerned that we lose good board members. I've certainly seen it. You must have seen it in it. You lose really good people, the volunteers on those boards, mainly volunteers, who they are the bedrock of what makes condominiums work throughout Ontario, but everywhere. And they need to be protected. Um being a condominium board member is a full-time job, and it's made so much more difficult by this small group of unruly owners who are seem to me anyway to be unnecessarily looking for conflict. So I'm worried that the pendulum has swung too far in favor of so-called owners' rights. I'm worried that owners now have too much opportunity to cause difficulty for the boards. And I know it's a balance, I'm gonna say it again. Yes, we've got to find the balance. Uh it's um we don't we don't want um individual owner rights to be forgotten. That's not my message. But I do think that there is some balancing back the other way that I think is needed. And I have three maybe controversial ideas that I'd like to offer.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01If you're willing. So if if I were uh in charge, uh some of the things that I might be wanting to do would be uh I might place, I would place a limit on the number of records requests an owner can make. And what I I don't know what the limit should be, but I said here in my notes, say one per year and also limited to two every five years. One per calendar year, two every five calendar years, something like that. Owners already, condominium owners already receive a huge amount of information. The information certificates, semi-annual periodic information certificates, information certificate updates, notices of future funding in relation to the reserve fund, AGM notices, normally audited financial statements, access to the auditor, the right to raise any matters relevant to the affairs of the corporation at the AGM. Condominium owners are well informed. That's my pitch. Now I recognize that that there are circumstances in which they may want additional documents, additional records. I yeah, but but to me it's it it can be limited. They don't need to be using records requests as a weapon.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01That's what worries me. Um and and I don't uh the reason I made this one, this first recommendation is that I don't know that the condominium authority tribunal has the um d tools to regulate this this weaponizing of records requests. That's what worries me.
SPEAKER_03We have the introduction of the uh vexatious litigant that's helpful. And that's maybe a step, but perhaps we could go a step further.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I this is my idea. Limit the number of records requests that someone can make. Um second idea, add a provision in the condominium act stating that excessive or unreasonable communications to the corporation board or manager from an owner or occupant constitute harassment and a nuisance. We've got all sorts of other nuisances, you know, smoke, noise, um, odor, etc., light. I think excessive, unreasonable communication is a nuisance. Uh now, I mean it's a tricky idea I've got here, but I'd like to how do you define excessive or unreasonable communications and you know, how do you get to the right.
SPEAKER_03In some cases, it's pretty easy when the words are incredibly egregious and harmful.
SPEAKER_01That's what I think. And um if you've if you've been a recipient of that kind of communication, you know how it hurts. You you you this this is hurtful. It's harmful. Um I I think it's I our board members and our managers are being harmed. We gotta protect them. Um anyway, and I think that it would warrant a penalty if it's found this nuisance. And uh we've got we got penalties now against condominium corporations who without reasonable excuse fail to provide records. Um I would like a penalty payable by the owner if if there's a finding of nuisance in relation to communication.
SPEAKER_03Particularly if it results in harm to the board member or manager, because we are definitely seeing an increase in managers leaving the industry and board members leaving the board because they can't sleep at night. They're getting these types of communications. They open their email and they're they they they feel sick to their stomach seeing an uh an email from a particular owner because of the toxicity of the message. So it's something that we have to be thinking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm I'm worried about it. So that's that's number two. And number three is I would like to return to some of the historical concepts about costs, holding owners 100% responsible for the costs they cause through an actor omission, through an improper dispute. Uh, I think that well, that that's I'm aging myself from that, but that was what I grew up with. That to me made sense in a condominium community. I I it made sense to I I'll say all of us in the old days, but it for now for some reason these days it doesn't make sense. And um, well, I anyway, so if that's my number three, is I'd like to see a return to that. Maybe, maybe I'm just not in step with modern the modern world. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I don't think so because I think that is the pitch that most of the lawyers in the industry are making, is to try and persuade the cat and other powers that be to move back in that direction. Again, we've heard from uh various uh authorities that we should be budgeting in our budgets for the condos should be budgeting in their budgets for the cost of doing business, for the cost of dealing with these types of disputes. But maybe that isn't the way of the future. Maybe we have to go back and look at some basic first principles as to how those costs really should be allocated. This is a community. Why should I? And actually Patricia Ilya spoke about this the other day when she did her podcast. She talked about eroding equity in your unit. And so, why should I, as a unit owner, have to worry about my equity in my unit being eroded by one unreasonable owner in the community? So let's maybe think a little bit more about that last recommendation as we move forward in a in a world that's even more and more condocentric.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And you've got you you you put in the legislation an obligation to comply with the governing documents.
SPEAKER_03There's our tools to enforce that.
SPEAKER_01And but but what's the consequence? Is it uh that is a statement by the legislator that that's what we expect from the members of this community. And then we've got we pay place a duty on the boards to take reasonable steps to enforce, but then we don't we don't um comp compensate them or reimburse the related costs.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I anyway, so uh it's a tension that we're gonna see, I think, over the next few years. And it's gonna be fascinating to see how it evolves. We are actually just about we're I think we're over time, in fact.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Uh Jim, thank you so much. Oh, this was awesome. Today, I have a feeling we might be bringing you back again for a part two, uh, because it's just there's so much to talk about. And so, folks, stay tuned for our next expert in our trailblazer series. We'll keep you guessing as to who that might be. We know that you guys are gonna love these episodes. And until then, uh thank you so much for tuning in to The Condo Pod, your source for all things condo in Eastern Ontario. Be sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode and share this podcast with your fellow members of the condominium community. For more resources and upcoming events, visit us online at ccieasternOntario.ca. And until next time, stay informed, stay connected, and keep your community strong. Have a great day.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Matt. Thanks for tuning into the condo pod, your source for all things condo in Eastern Ontario. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And share this podcast with your fellow condo community. For more resources and upcoming events, visit us at ccieasternOntario.ca. Until next time, stay informed, stay connected, and keep your community strong.
