The 2006 FA Cup Final, 20 Years On | Season 2: Episode 1

We're back! Season 2 of The West Ham Syndrome is here and we're kicking things off with a special episode marking the 20th anniversary of the 2006 FA Cup Final.

On 13 May 2006, West Ham United faced Liverpool at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff in a match now widely regarded as one of the greatest FA Cup finals ever played. We take you through West Ham's road to the final, the context surrounding that season, and every moment of a game that had absolutely everything.

We also take an honest (and slightly painful) look at how close West Ham have come to a final in the twenty years since.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to the West Ham Syndrome Podcast, the show where we look at West Ham United beyond the match day, with your host Andrew Jenkin and Max Portman.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

Hello and welcome back to season two of the West Ham Syndrome, where we go beyond the match day and chat all things West Ham. Yes, after a short break, we're back for season two, and what a time to return. We are right in the midst of a straight shootout with Tottenham for a place in the Premier League next season. No pressure. Completely fine, nothing to see here. Pressure guitar, mate. Yeah. Well, today at least, Max, we're looking to something a little bit rosier, which is one match 20 years ago to the day. Liverpool free, West Ham free, Liverpool win on penalties. Of course, we're talking about the 2006 FA Cup final. But before we get into that, let me introduce my co-host. He's the Carl Fletcher to my Nigel Ria Cloaker. Please welcome Mr. Max Portman. Max, how are you, mate?

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Good. I will take that. That means I'm a legend Dan in Plymouth, right? So I will take that. That was apt for the FA Cup final, isn't it? Yeah. And I mean, you ask me, Carl Fletcher's my man of the match in that game, but we'll get to that later. But I'm good. How about you though? We probably should tell our listeners you've had some very big news in our um time away. You've become a dad for the first time.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

I have, yeah. Little uh Heidi, Heidi Rose-Jenkin has has joined joined the clan. She's already got multiple West Ham kits, so she's she's she's firmly embedded into West Ham life. Funnily enough, she was she was actually asleep on me during the Arsenal game on Sunday. And when West Ham scored, I had I had to sort of like celebrate without trying to wake her up. And then obviously the the disappointment of that goal getting ruled out is just sort of setting her up for life, really, and and embedding that that lifetime of disappointment nice and early. But yeah, no, she's good. Thank you for asking me.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Well, of course, always, and I think it's really great, and congratulations, obviously. Thank you. How are you? Good.

SPEAKER_04 2:01

Yeah, I yeah, I can't complain. It's uh it's been great. It's been great. Paternity leave is over, unfortunately, but it it's uh it's it's been very special, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Good. And what do you think about the rest of the season? Because we normally do this, don't we? We always start off with what's happening at the moment before we dive back into history or our guests. So what's your feeling about you know the rest of the season? Do you think we're staying up or do you think it's too little, too late?

SPEAKER_04 2:25

Yeah, obviously a lot's happened since the last episode of the previous season, hasn't it? Obviously, Karen Brady has has left and Daniel Krasinski is up to shareholding, so maybe we'll address some of those those things after we know what's happening next season and what the future might hold. But yeah, for right now, I mean I I after the Arsenal game on Sunday there, I really was pretty despondent about it, and I think I had consigned myself to relegation. But I did I have to remind myself that actually after that Nottingham Forest game in January, where we were seven points off the relegation zone, to have been in this position, I think I probably would have taken it. Then plus the fact Tottenham didn't beat Leeds on Monday just gave me that little inkling of hope. And I know we're only at 12% probability to stay up, but I just sort of fancy Chelsea to want to uh do one over uh the uh over Spurs, and I just I I kind of I don't know. I just think there's there's something else to go. I'm not sure. It'll be tricky because I mean Leeds are no mugs and and and Newcastle away certainly won't be easy, but you you never know, do you? How how are you feeling about things?

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Oh, a bit like yourself. Uh I'll be honest, I couldn't watch the game on Monday because it was just pure nerves. So I ended up watching. Have you seen the new Golden Generation documentary on BBC R Plow? No, is that is that worth a watch? Yeah, it's okay. I feel they could have gone a bit more deeper into it. Ironically, which does feature a lot of hammers in there. I mean Rio's in there, um Joe Cole, uh Frank Lampard, Caracter, maybe. Yeah, they actually don't meant talk to Carac, but they get snippets of Jerry Cole talking about it. And Rio is featured quite heavily. But no, it's uh yeah, I decided to watch that and then caught the final ten minutes. So I watched all of injury time. So I saw the penalty that may have been a penalty. I don't think it was a penalty because he got his foot to the ball. Just so yeah, we VAR actually did us a favour for a change.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

So you know that's it, yes. Yeah, there's slight irony to that. I did appreciate that. But that save from Kinsky was I I really thought Leeds had had finched it there at the end, but that was a fantastic save. And if Spurs do say up, then uh yeah, I think they've got him to thank for it, which I'm not sure many of us would have been saying after the athletic Athletico Madrid game, would we? But I don't think a lot of Spurs fans would have been saying it after Atletico Madrid. Anyway, regardless of what happens, we'll we'll always have 20 years ago today, of course. I should say 20 years ago today, the day we're recording, but I think it'll actually be 20 years in two days by the time this goes out. So um close enough. But Max, what were you doing 20 years ago today?

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Uh 20 years ago today, I would have been finishing my first year of secondary school. So that's how far back we're going, yeah. So but 20 years ago today, I was at I'm still living in London. Moved out now to the just outside of London. I live on the outskirts of London, Buckinghamshire now. But so yeah, 20 years yeah, I'm still living in London and yeah, I watched the game at home with my dad and my mate from school who supported West Ham as well. Although in the end he hated how much we were doing crap, so he left us and supported QPR, which oh yeah. I mean that I mean, you know, if you go to another team like Arsenal or United at the time or City who were coming up, I understand that, but QPR, come on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

What were you doing? If you're gonna be a traitor, at least do it for a uh you know, for some some actual success, yeah. Yeah, but what were you doing 20 years ago? Well, I I went with my mum and dad to the final, so uh we went to Cardiff. It was the third time in three years gone, because obviously the two playoff finals that the two previous seasons, so third time in three years to Cardiff, which is obviously a bit of a trek. I remember the the first time on the way back, it felt like forever after we'd lost that game to uh Crystal Palace in the playoff final. But yeah, it so beautiful day in Cardiff. I remember it just beautiful sunshine, and it it looked like it was pretty warm watching it back, which we'll which we'll get into. But yeah, I I also um remember my dad had during halftime he'd gone off to to get a drink, I think, and he'd come back with this kind of souvenir FA Cup final t-shirt like that sort of when we were winning at the break, and I just remember thinking, God, I hope I hope this doesn't jinx it. But uh anyway, let's get into it. And I maybe before we we talk about the game itself and our memories of it, shall we just sort of set the scene as to how we how we ended up getting to the final in the first place and and the and the root the road to Cardiff?

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Yeah, I think we I think though with the road for Cardiff, ironically, it starts in Cardiff a year before, don't it? Because with the player final, which we've spoken about, we were both out in 2005, you know, that's the first big thing that starts us on our way, you know, because Alan Pardu's just about to be sacked if he don't get us promoted.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

A lot of people forget. So we get promoted, obviously, at the end of the 2004-5 season, beating Preston at the Millennium Stadium. We come up, and then it's a bit of a weird start, isn't it? We win our first game, draw one and lose one, and then all of a sudden after the international break, we just come out of the traps and just turn it on in such a great way.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

Yeah, absolutely. They were playing some really good stuff, weren't they? And so certainly some good good victories along the way, a few games where you sort of weren't expecting them to win and they just pull it out. But I think in the in the squad, and I'm I'm sure we'll talk about the team itself, but there were some really good players in that team. Obviously, Zamora and Sheringham and Airwood, but then Yossi Benoin had been a good addition over the summer, hadn't he? Plus, you had kind of Nigel Riyakoka in the middle, who was brilliant, and it was just a it was a good attacking Matty Everington, you know, it was a great it was a great team, and he just added a bit of quality over the summer as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Yeah, and he'd also short up the defense. That's what a lot of people forget. He brings in Paul Kincheski at left back, he brings in Danny Gabadon, who ends up becoming Hammer of the Year, he brings in Big Ginge, you know, yeah. So long ago Ginger Pele had hair. That's how far the thing was back. And he has a proper mop with Ginger Rare as well in that final. Yeah, Christ, you know, so much happens you know in in that year. I mean, Keddy Sharon had only just begun his 40s or was still in his late 30s, you know. Now he's 60. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. They're saying a lot of how much has changed over all those years. But uh yeah, it was a really good team. I I think do you know what? Outside of I'd say the last season at the bowling and the Moyes era, that was probably my favourite season of supporting West Ham.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Yes, yes. There was a real sort of energy about that team, wasn't there? And you sort of almost kind of you didn't really know they could they could beat anyone on their day, essentially, couldn't they? I mean, and they and they beat they I remember they beat Arsenal away that season and last huge week in April. That's right, didn't they? And the Zamora had the better of Sol Campbell, didn't he, that day? And yeah, it was a good, it was a good, it was a really you know exciting team, and Parge really had them going. And then I think probably a turning point, and maybe we'll start with this, was um also not a turning point necessarily, actually, because they were doing pretty well anyway, but just to reinforce what they had, Dean Ashton, the signing of Dean Ashton in that January transfer window. So the first match, third round, Norwich City away. I think Norwich City were in the championship, weren't they? Um yeah, they'd just been relegated, if I'm not mistaken. And I'm sure Robert Green was in goal for them actually.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

He was, he was. I think this is just after the Let's be Avenue, it's not long after the Let's be Havenues.

SPEAKER_04 9:48

Right, yeah, because yeah, Ashton was playing for them at that point, but he didn't play in this game, I think, due to the the transfer speculation. Uh so he doesn't play in that game, and then they end up selling him to what to West Ham a few days later at 7.2 million, which kind of feels like a bit of a steal now, doesn't it, given how good he was.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Um how good he could have been, which is yeah, uh do you know what? When people say to me, Who's the one player you wish had gone on and you know should have had a career? I always say Dean Ashton because just watching I was there, I'm not you were probably there through the first game as well against Sunderland in 2006, and he just we were really struggling that game, and he just comes on and him and Sharon and Matt Frank just completely turned the game on its head, and so much for the better.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

Yeah, absolutely. And um I was recently re-watching some of the the seasons under Kirbishley, which were a bit bit of a stodgy watch at times, but whenever whenever he was on, he he you know he could create something. He was that player that just sort of be able to score goals uh out of nothing really that you could almost just give the ball to and and something would happen. But yes, so Robert Green was in goal for for Norwich that day, although I think he also made a bit of a howler for the for the second West Ham goal, which I think some more are prod soon. But Hayden Mullins scores an absolute peach to open the scoring, doesn't he?

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Oh that's yeah, I do you know what we were both saying this, we both watched the goals of we watched the cup run before we came into this, and yeah, it's six minutes in, you know, for Hayden Mullins to score, anyways, is a revelation at that point. But yeah, to score, you know, a solid about 22-23 yarder, which is outside the box, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it pings off the left post, hits the right, and then just rolls into the net, and you just think, yeah, and green is just rooted to the spot. Yeah, no chance, no chance. No chance.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

So, yeah, they go two two up. I think Norwich get one later on, don't they? And so relatively, relatively straightforward in the third round, which has not been the case as what perhaps we'll discuss later on. Round four, I was definitely at this one. Blackburn Rovers at home. I remember being a goal down after a minute after David Bentley, future hammer, scored. But then West Ham respond goals from Sheringham, Everington, Zamora, and a Gish Nashville own goal. I put them four one up, and I think they they get one back as well, don't they? But yeah, any memories. Lucas Nil, so that's it. Yeah, it was a great finish as well, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 12:07

It was, yeah. And then he ended up starting for us about a year later, if I'm not mistaken, during the great escape season. Funnily enough, the one yeah, because we're both at the game, the one memory I have from it, and this is bizarre, is I actually missed the Everton goal because I was in the loop.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

I thought to miss, do you know, like you remember uh the London Stadium's worse, but uh Upton Park, if you didn't go for a wee before half time, you were not getting anywhere near that toilet before the second half began. So I always used to sneak out around the 36th, 37th minute, and I thought, well, if I go now, you know, I'll be no cues, and then I can just stand here at halftime, watch whatever entertainment they've gone at halftime, or listen to whatever quiz they're doing, and then you know, if I need to go in the second half, I can go in the second half before we head off home. But yeah, missed the Everton goal. And since then I'm always really cautious about going for a pee around that time because I think, yeah, I missed the Everton goal 20 years ago and I might miss another one again.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Never never a good time to go for a Wii, is there? But yeah, it was uh I I I I remember the Kish Nashville owned goal and was just sort of kind of uh I think he stumbled over it, didn't he? Into into the net. But there's a bit of a theme of of kind of of former and future West Ham players in the opposition team to the run because in the next round they play Bolton Wanderers with a certain Mr. UC Askalainen in goal for for the Wanderers that day.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Yes, and he actually does us a favour six years before signing for us by scoring an own goal.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Yeah, although I wondered, I remember I was definitely at the replay, the two what so they they draw the the the first game nil-nil at the rebook and then they win 2-1 after extra time. Uh Marlon Harewood scored in extra time, but yeah, I thought it was uh a Nikki Hunt owned goal, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Do you know what? That was the other thing I saw about this cut run is players I hadn't thought of in years just appearing going, Oh my god, I forgot like Nikki Hunt.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Yeah, when is I can't remember the last time I ever thought of Nikki Hunt outside of you know I heard somebody once refer to him as uh looking like a funeral director, and I wasn't quite sure you know what that meant, but when somebody does say it, you can sort of go, Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, yeah. An all-bearer or an undertaker, that's the real question. You could you can see him in the in the in the suit, couldn't you? Um anyway, they they we went we managed to we managed to win that one, and then we're into the the quarter finals against Manchester City, and if forgive me if I'm wrong, but another hammer in goal, former hammer, David James, if I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Yes, and another former hammer managing them in Stuart Pierce. Absolutely, yeah, Kylian.

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Yeah, yeah. So this was before before all the the real money had started to to trickle in, and that but um and this is perhaps where we start to see the real the real brilliance of Dean Ashton.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Oh gosh, yeah. Did you know what that is my I still think about that goal quite a lot, actually. I still think that's probably the best goal Ashton ever scored for us. I know he scored the overhead kick at Old Trafford, yeah. But I think the pure fact of just the whole move that you know passes it to Rio Coker, Ria Poker, passes it to Zamora, Ashton flicks it over, does the little back Rabona for his thing, put and then sticks it past James in the near post. It's like, geez, yeah, do you know what? Believe it or not, I was actually in hospital for an operation when I was a kid, and that's I watched that. I remember that goal in the hospital vividly, and it was like the one good part of being in the hospital was like, Oh my god, did you see that goal to my daddy's sort of that goal?

SPEAKER_04 15:24

I think I think that must have been I remember I was watching on telly as well. It must have been on BBC or something, wasn't it? But I I I seem to remember that first goal because he finishes it with his left, doesn't he? It's sort of and he puts it in the in the near David James near post. And I just remember thinking, God, this he's he's that was the first time I was like, right, I can see why they've signed him for 7.2 million, which was a lot of money back then. And just like this, he's classed. This you know, that that was a fantastic two-footed the way he sort of yeah, you're right, got it under control, got it onto his left foot, and the finish was was superb. But and that was a relatively comfortable match, if I'm not mistaken. I don't think they they got one back until fairly late on.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Yeah, and there's another name I didn't answer for years, Kiki Massappa. That is a that was a proper that's do you know a lot when people go Barclaysman and say stuff like Kiki Massapa is a pure Barclaysman like every so often he he was very much here with those uh dreads, and no one would exactly he just used to score him and Emil and Panzer up front for them.

SPEAKER_05 16:22

Yes, yes, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

See, funnily enough, we both know Gary who's a band city historian, and every so often I go, Here, do you remember? He goes, Yeah, I remember him, and it's never it's yeah, some of the players I'd say before 2008, he remembers in a very good light, but the majority of them, like we do, is that oh god, I forgot we signed them, they were fucking useless.

SPEAKER_04 16:45

Yeah, there was uh there was a few uh players that I actually forgot that Andy Cole played for them as well for a while, and there's a few players. Robbie Founder played for him as well. So he did yes, yeah, Robbie Founder did, yeah, yeah. Before the before the real money started to trickle in, of course. But uh okay, so that that takes us up to the semi-final, of course. Where were I don't think anyone needs reminding of that one at Villa Park, but yeah, I think that was a bit special, wasn't it? Because John Lyell had just passed away, and there was I remember there was a a moment's silence for him, and the match was pretty touchy. It wasn't until sort of relatively late in the second half that that Harewood scored, was it?

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Yeah, I was gonna say about the John Lyell thing. Yeah, it's great that the chant then goes up after, you know, and then yeah, Johnny O'Lear's clamber on me, Johnny O'Leal's clamber on me, which I thought was lovely. And then I think weirdly that kind of set up the tone for the rest of the game almost. I almost felt quite poetic that we won it on the day. Yeah, yeah. And funnily enough, I know people can't see me on the podcast, but I'm actually wearing my 1980 um. It's a lovely bit of clubber, that is. It's a lovely bit of clobber, yeah. That and the 75 one, uh 76 they do, don't they, at the moment, which is like the claret with like the blue striker across the chest. Yeah, that's a lovely bit of jacket, that's a lovely bit of clobber. Yeah, I've got mix, I've bit mixed caught a few of those, not gonna reach out.

SPEAKER_04 18:06

Oh undoubtedly, yeah, undoubtedly.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

But no, yeah, that fight I remember that's and then Marlon getting it on the turn, that was a lovely finish. You know, that's a proper striker's finish, you know, getting in the box, turning the defender in his own.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

Also the left footer, yeah, also the left footer, wasn't it? Right into the roof. Uh it didn't really give uh it was the Australian guy in goal, wasn't it? Schwarzer Mark Schwarzer, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

And you know what that Migasbury team was solid. I think that was the team that got to the UEFA Cup final that year.

SPEAKER_04 18:31

Yes, yeah, and Gareth Southgate was playing.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

No, is he managing Stephen McClaren? Was Southgate playing, though? Yeah, Southgate, it was the last season before Southgate retired. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:44

Well, that then takes us into that goal, takes us into the final, and kind of sets it up quite nicely, really. So I suppose a bit of context to the actual game itself, so that was the route to Cardiff, but I suppose a bit of background to it. So it's West Ham's fifth FA Cup final, they'd won three and lost the very famous 1923 game, the White Horse Final, which of course our friend Brian will will always is pretty adamant. It's not it shouldn't be called the White Horse final. But yeah, it was not a bad record going into it, was it three out of four?

SPEAKER_03 19:15

No, no, it's a pretty good recording thing. Funnily enough, we're terrible at charity uh community charity or community shields, whatever you want to call it. You know, we've only won one out of the three we've been in, so yeah. So FA Cups were good in charity shields, not so much.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

Going into that final, that West Ham were still the last team outside the top division to win the FA Cup, of course, 1980, with uh Trevor Brookings header, and then 26 years later, probably unarguably back as underdogs. So, yeah, although they were obviously now in the top league. But we've mentioned the fact that it was the third major final in Cardiff for West Ham in three seasons, and I suppose a bit of context is we we we haven't really mentioned Liverpool, of course, but it's not a Liverpool podcast. They had finished the season pretty respectably, I think. They came third and they were on the back of a nine-game winning run, whereas West Ham finished ninth, which was pretty good given it was their first season back in the Premier League. But as we say, it was pretty pretty fair to say that we were the underdogs going into that match.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Yeah, and we played them on that run as well, and we lost to him.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

Yes, we had, and that comes to my next point about the suspended players because Mullins and uh Louis Garcia have both been sent off. I was at that match as well, and they got into a little scuffle, both of them essentially ruling themselves out for the final through that suspension. But yeah, they'd beaten us twice that season already, two at Anfield and then two-one at Upton Park. So they probably also had a bit of a psychological edge on us going into that game as well, and they were they were the the heavy favourites. They'd won the Champions League the year before, and they had quite a lot of expensively assembled players, uh Dribel Cise, Peter Crouch, of course, dead Stephen Gerrard and Jamie Carrag still, but then Luis Garcia, who was suspended, but uh Xavi Alonso, Harry Keel. Fernando Moriente. Fernando Morientez, of course, yeah, we'll come to him. Yeah. So you know they had they had a pretty strong looking lineup. Yeah, what else? What else can we say about this? Nigel Riococa, who we've mentioned already, one of my favourite players, who I I may have named my dog after. He was captaining West Ham. He one day before his 22nd birthday, so the the final was played on the 13th, he turned 22 the following day. That made him the youngest captain at an FA Cup final. And and actually, whilst I was doing some research for this, there was some controversy over the referee. Do you remember this at all, Max?

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Yes, I do. So the referee was supposed to be Mike Dean, correct? Correct, yeah. And if I'm not mistaken, they had to change him because Mike Dean's from Tramvir, which is too close to Liverpool, and they thought he might be a bit too biased towards Liverpool. Which Mike Dean is not one for controversy, is he? I always found it to be such a fantastic, really great, impartial ref. He says he says sarcastically.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Replaced replaced. With Alan Wiley, but yeah, I mean I've always wondered about this. I mean he's a Tramure fan, he's pretty obviously a Tramure fan now, I suppose. But do you do you think that was a bit unfair? I mean, I don't I don't I think I think if you're a fan of one team, would you be either put uh uh uh what is the accusation that he would have been favourable to Liverpool?

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Because I would have thought if you were you would have been sort of well just knowing who what Mike Dean was like as a ref, it's yeah not out of the question. Mike Dean was like in a high profile game, it was wasn't to be unexpected that Mike Dean would do a decision that made it all about Mike Dean. That's true. Yeah. Although it was sometimes was a good ref, but there were few and far between. There were so many better refs at that point, you could have got to do the final. I mean, Wiley was decent, but he weren't great. Yeah. I'd say probably the best refs at that time would have been Webb. You know? Yeah, Graham Cole. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so Wiley doing it was probably, you know, the best of the rest almost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:57

And and I I can't remember, is it the still the case that you can only do it once? Because maybe had had they previously already done it?

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Um no. I didn't know that was a thing, but you know.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

Well I thought maybe I've made that up. I thought there was a thing that you only you only do it kind of once and then they rotate it.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

Uh I mean that's pretty good though, that everybody then gets to say they've done one shake up final. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:17

Yeah. It's a bit like sports day though, isn't it, where everyone gets a medal just with participating. I also I don't think this had adorned on me either, but apparently 1600 tickets were stolen in the post from the Liverpool and the uh the week before the final as well. Do you remember this at all? No, I did not. Was it by Everton fans by any chance? Uh South Wales police seized a hundred stolen tickets the day after the game. Fifteen forgeries were found before kickoff. There were three arrests made as well. So yeah. I think that'd probably been lost on me, to be completely honest.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

No, I had no idea about that. You know, yes, Cod, you've got suspensions, stolen tickets, you know, referee changes, you know, Steven before the kickoff.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So let's let's let's get into the actual match. Enough of the build-up. We'll quickly run through the team, shall we? Liverpool had Pepe Reyna in goal. Are you not going to do your Martin Goldman in front of you? I wouldn't want to do him a disservice. I think that would be too disrespectful to the great man. But uh uh Steve Finnant, uh Jamie Carragher, Huppia, John Honorisa, Stephen Gerrard, Alonzo Sozoko, who that I'd totally forgotten about, Harry Kehl, and then Peter Crouch and Jabriel Sise up front. I mean, it's quite you know if you look at that front line, it's not it's pretty pretty good, isn't it? Yeah. West Ham had Shacker, big Shacker in goal, Lionel Scalone, who I'm sure we'll come to, Anton Ferdinand, your your man Danny Gabadon. I know how much you love Danny Gabadon. Uh Paul Koncheski left back, Yossi Benayun, who I was it was always one of my favourites. Big Nigel, who we've spoken about, Nigel Rio Coker in the middle, and Captain on the day, Carl Fletcher, not the one from Dream Team, Matty Everington on the left, and then Marlon Harewood and Dean Ashton up front. So again, I mean, to be fair, that's also a pretty good team. And I know I know we're underdogs, but if you look at that sort of Ben Ayun, Rio Coker, Everington, Hairwood, Ashton, I mean, they would give most most teams a bit of a scare, I think.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

And you know what? One of the things when I was watching it watching it earlier, I saw was first of all, it was the 125th FA Cup final. Okay, yeah, I guess that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, so the fact of what the game became, you know, really lives up to the spectacle of being 125 years, which is great. But as I said to you before we started recording, do you have any idea who delivered the match ball to the referee on the day?

SPEAKER_04 25:40

This is yeah, this is so random. Only because you have enlightened me before the call, but yeah, no, go on, tell tell tell us.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

Shane Bourne, the Australian spinner, the late Australian spinner. Yeah. Uh just a bit like first of all, what is Shane Warren doing? I know he used to play county cricket over here, but second of all, what is he doing at an FA Cup final? I I don't know. I mean, is have you got any information on on why he might be No, no, funnily enough, while I was looking through to find footage, I couldn't find anything UK, but I found Australian and they didn't even mention there why Shane Warren was, you know, bringing the ball onto the field. So each to their own, but it was just a bizarre thing. But yeah, also, for the first time I saw in the build-up, Prince William. It was his first year as FA president. Ah, okay. Alright. Yeah, and they said, well, you know, he hasn't announced his football leasences just yeah. Now we all know he's an Aston Villa fan, obviously. But back then there was rumors he might support Arsenal because he'd been seen at Arsenal's training ground. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Well that's um yeah, I d I uh yeah, that's all good context, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it's quite mad. And now we've got the teams, which you're right, both of them are pretty solid teams. So we should probably actually get into the game. So what did you so what did you think when the game started and Liverpool carnival were in the ascendancy and that and those first say 10-15 minutes?

SPEAKER_04 27:01

Well, I just yeah, watching watching it back. So I've got I I've I've got most of these kind of pretty much anything that's ever been released on DVD West Ham, I've I've got, right? However, how but the thing is about these kind of full match DVDs, I can't actually tell you honestly that I've watched any of them before because no one actually really ever wants to re-watch the whole match, do they?

SPEAKER_03 27:22

Are you saying that I actually watched the re the h rewatch the whole match this morning? Well, so did I.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

So did I in light of us doing this episode, but I wouldn't typically for for any, you know, I wouldn't typically do it on a Sunday evening. Oh, I wonder if I should go back and watch, you know, West Ham uh like the the Europa Conference League final. I'm probably unlikely unless we do an episode on it to watch the whole thing back. And and and even now with you know the amount of kind of tactical breaks in play. Can you imagine sitting through the extra 13 minutes of stoppage time from Tottenham Leeds from Monday night? Not that we would ever watch that anyway, but you see my point. It it would become a bit of a bit of a bit of a slog. Anyway, this was I mean, I think there was only like two minutes stoppage time, wasn't there, at the end of two and three minutes or something like that. So it's refreshing. I was like, where what happened to all those uh you know, who was expecting 10 minutes to go up or something? Um so yeah, I remember I remember just thinking we were playing quite well. I don't think Liverpool really threatened at all. And if anything, I thought West Ham were the better team in the early stages. Uh, there's maybe a bit of biasy i in in that analysis, but I didn't really think they threatened, they hadn't got going. One thing I did notice, did you notice this? The pitch was awful slippy. Oh gosh, yeah, they definitely overwatered that game, overwatered that pitch. Yeah, they were falling over. I know it was a hot day, it was a warm day. I suspect they were thinking it was gonna sort of dry out pretty quickly, but they're slipping all over the place. And they they made a comment about CSA changing his boots for the start of the second half. I don't know if you noticed that.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

I did, yeah. And we'll get to Julia LC in a minute. But yeah, I found the whole thing to be bizarre. Yeah, you're right with the lack of injury time that because you're expecting now five, six, seven minutes at the end of the first half, and then you know, if you're talking hotspur 13 extra minutes at the end of um, you know, the second half. But no, you're right. I think the first I think the first kind of say five, ten minutes, it's Liverpool seemed the stronger of the two the two of us. And we're getting into the game, and then after that point, we just really kind of the game opens up, which is really nice to see. Yeah, you know. I mean, you watch games these days, and it can be very scrappy in the middle and it gets a little bit thing, but back then that game's really open. Yeah, and I mean the pitch was big anyway at the Millennium Stadium, but it felt like it really opened up, say, from about the 10-minute mark in our favour. And we started cutting them open and started making moves through. But that then leads us to is it the sixth, seventeenth, or the eighteenth minute where we get our first goal. Uh, I think it's the 20-minute mark, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 29:43

But I know it was but but but you but you're right, and I actually the the amount of space I was like, I wonder if all games back back then were kind of this open because you're right. Now you're kind of used to watching, especially because I think both teams are playing 4-4-2. So I don't know if I'm just looking at the middle of midfield and thinking, oh, that's a lot of space there. But to be fair, Nigel Riyakoka plays like two players in there anyway. But yeah, it was it was quite refreshing. I just was like, why isn't more football a bit more like this? Quite open, both teams kind of going for it. But yeah, 20-minute mark, and this again, this is Dean Ashton, I think, really makes this goal, doesn't he? He gets the ball, plays a lovely kind of throughport pass to Lionel Scalone, his low cross, and uh poor old Jamie Carragher. I think he just gets his feet all wrong, doesn't he? And ends up coming off his his left left foot.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Now Scaloni has made a run down that right side. Well it's second two by Ashton. Here we lots it in the middle. And what's that? I've taken the lead break and Jamie Carragher.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

He's in the wrong place at the right time, as far as West Hammer concerned. Well, look at this ball from Dean Ashton. That is a fantastic ball, it really is. He's waited, he waited. Carragher had to play it because he wasn't sure Rayner was going to get it. But this pass is imperfect. Stalone drives it in across the box there. Carragher has to go for it, and unfortunately for him, just when he happened, he misses it with his right foot, it hits his left foot and then goes in. But that goal is all down to Dean Ashton to herb through the ball. It really was a tremendous pass.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

Is it if you watch it from one angle, you're like, how on earth does that go in? But it's just almost perfect the way it just cuts inside that post. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

I think he I think if knowing Carriga, I think he's probably thinking, right, if I tack it with my left foot, just get the right touch on it, I can guide it past the post, give away a corner. Yeah. And yeah, his feet just I think he goes to touch it with his right, completely forgets it, hits it with his left, and then just slips over himself and puts it in the back of the net. Do you think that's why he hates us now, Carriger? Because he never really has a nice word to say about us. Do you think it's been 20 years and he just wakes wakes up in a cold sweat at night thinking about that goal?

SPEAKER_04 32:02

I don't know. I think it he often comes up in this kind of list of most known goals, though. He's always kind of towards the top of that. But this this has got to be one of the most high-profile. It was it was very unfortunate on his part. I mean, I didn't I can't say I cared too much at the time, but uh yeah, it was it was all made by Dean Ashton and that and that sort of pass and cut cut open for Scalone. But yeah, at this point, and then and then sort of not not too long later, I think we're kind of looking at sort of five or six minutes later. Everington, and uh if you remember, Everington and Ashton were both not really fit. I remember being quite worried that neither of them were going to be fit to start, but they both started, and then Everington shoots. Pepe Reyno made a bit of a hash of it, didn't he? Fumbles it, and Dean Ashton pounces, which makes it 2-0. Yeah, proper striker score that is from Dean Ashton, isn't it? I think that did that is the definition of bundled it in.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

But he'll come back from that, and I'm sure he'll have you know the rest of the game will be solid for him. In fact, no, he just stopped Howard and his tracks there when he was in full flow. And that's not an easy thing to do because Howard is one of the quickest and strongest strikers in the premiership at the moment. He will be verdicting Jamie Carriger.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Live up to the through and through over a decade now as a professional outward handfield Jim I'd really aren't even reset by that rather than actually clear as I really haven't played it right back. Unbelievable!

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Well, it's amazing, it's the center of the last week, no climb would I know the bottom ashton reflects it on Edwin there, just challenge Highs a shot, that's the ball of Ray and I find the chance, got the Dean Ashton, takes the chance, follows the end, that's the step up, blue action, and Dean Ashton, wow, what a contribution he's made to the to the game so far. Made the first goal, scored the second, and the player who right up just kicked off was touching goal whether he was gonna play or not.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

A real predator, such awareness at front of goalie, he was alive there to the possibilities. Liverpool, 2-0, reely talking his stamp bull again.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

Yeah, because you see the ball just in slow mode, just creep towards the line and go across. And Ashton, I think Ashton's the only one who thinks it's in. Everyone's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because you're waiting for someone like a carrier or a hippier to come in and sweep the ball out. But no, he's very much yeah, he's just it just trickles in very thing, and everyone's just kind of stood there disbelieving. But that period, I'd say, between us scoring the first and us scoring the second, we just go at them and they do not have an answer for us. They're their defence is really struggling, their midfields just we're just cutting for their midfield at ease.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it it's sort of winning the midfield battle, aren't they, at this point? And uh I think Liverpool start tinkering with some tactics as well. So I think Keel goes from the left into the middle, and they they're starting to move from there's obviously a bit worried about the sort of direction of the match.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

And I know Carl Fletcher has Gerard's number at that point because Gerard's very much been ineffectual at this point, and Carl Fletcher's just absolutely marking and clean out of the game at that point. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:02

My only well, you I know we're thinking about doing a what-if episode, but there's so many what-if moments in this match, isn't there? Because you're like, what if West Ham had actually held on till half time 2-0? But and you know, how much of a different game would it have been? Because it's only four or five minutes after this point that Liverpool it was, I think it's is it I think it's Gerard's ball in, isn't it well, isn't it? So yeah, two goals in a few.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Yeah, it's a free kick on, yeah, it's a free kick on the edge of the about, I'd say 40 yards out on the wing. Yeah, and he culls it in. But before that, I forgot that Peter Crouch had a disallowed goal. Yes, yes, of course, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well do you think VAR would have had something to say about that? Oh, I mean, it was blatantly off the offside of I I forgot who the commentator was. He goes, Well, no, it's just just offside, but Peter Crouch is a tall guy anyway, and you know, when they had he definitely had an arm and a leg offside, which is at least, you know, a solid seven foot there on itself.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

So it's a bit of a he's got a bit of a disadvantage, isn't he? Because he's so tall. He's just almost always offside in some way.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

Yeah, just lanky arms, lanky legs, yeah. Just yeah, so yeah, as soon as you look, you go, oh, he's so obviously offside. Like, I think how can you say that's just offside? That's plainly offside, but yeah, yeah, offside, and then you're right, the second ball that flies in, C-Slay's actually onside for this one.

SPEAKER_04 37:20

Yes, yeah, and it's a good finish, you have to say. Nice, nice, tidy volley.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

And bizarrely, it's the only kind of impact C-Slay has on the entire game.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

Yeah, yeah, he was quite up for it.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

He looked quite sort of but he was fairly ineffectual in terms of actual, you know, open play. He was quite ineffectual. You don't him and Crouch really struggled in that game.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then I don't think much else happens. So sort of 2-1 at halftime. I think fair to say West Ham have been the better team. Obviously, they've got the lead, but I think everyone's sort of also expecting a bit a bit of a comeback in the second half.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I remember thinking at halftime, yeah, we can hold this out. You know, we've been a better team, we're doing well. You know, I think we might be able to nick this, but yeah, Liverpool had started getting building a bit of momentum towards the end of the first half, and we'd come back at them. And the game really is this is the thing. That's the one thing I really loved about this game, how open it was. Yeah, you know, that no one there was no fear, it's about watching that Bayern PSG game the other week. There was no there was no fear, everyone was like, Do you know what? Let's just go out and play the best game of football we possibly can. And I think that's what happened in this game. It was so nice to watch.

SPEAKER_04 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

You know, and do you know even the second? Come on, you first come.

SPEAKER_04 38:36

Well, no, the all I was going to say was one thing that really surprised me actually was well when when when so okay, so after the break, Gerard volley, I have to say, it's a really it's Peter Crouch knockdown, and the volley from Gerard is really good. And you're kind of like, he's he's single-handedly almost pulling this team back into this match because that it was a fantastic finish. And then we get to we get to 3-2 with Paul Konchesky, and that and that that really is out of nothing, isn't it? Absolutely. One of those games, though, one of your that it maybe probably a manager you're thinking maybe two or three goals a season that you just give me's and you're just like not expecting anything. And that is that is a fluke if the river was a fluke.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

LC Ben Air. So exciting for Western this season. Alkonceski, ending his support down the left. That's Kranjilov an incredible goal. Did he mean it? Was it a cross? Was it a shot? He doesn't care right now. It's a call to this hair, and they are back in front in this extraordinary, exhilarating fighting.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Well, I can't believe he meant that. I think he was aiming for How and he was pulling off to the far post. But it's not Raider again, you see Hell and pulling off to the fourth post. I'm sure that's where he's looking. He's missed units line. Raider's off his line, he finds just his quickly off. Completely wrong for it.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Not to mention the delight of the 23,000 slow West Hamptons back behind the goal over that far side. Kucheski has scored his first ever FA cut goal. And it really has now a sad thrilling but aren't it to the game.

SPEAKER_04 40:31

Yes, very much so. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know, you I don't know, would you say Pepe Raynish? I th I I feel like criticizing him would be a bit unfair for this one.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

Yeah, because I think watching the goal, Koncheski's looking for Hairwood at the far post.

SPEAKER_04 40:45

Yes, oh yeah, very much so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Yeah. He is looking for Hairwood at the far post, and I think the ball dips in such a way that Rainer doesn't see it coming. So when it hits the far post and then flies into the back of the net, it's a bit of like I think we're all a bit like, did that just happen?

SPEAKER_04 40:59

Yeah, yeah, I remember watching being then just thinking, wow, you know, wasn't expecting that to go in. So it's a bit of a a bit of a a freebie in that sense, but arguably West Ham should have I don't know if you remember Herwood has a chance at the start of the second half, actually.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

I do get himself right at the beginning of the first half. Him been I you and the it's like a it's it's almost like we just go out from the attack and they're like what's just happened here. Weren't expecting it, yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

Yeah. So West Ham 3-2 up with uh and and then you sort of look getting into sort of the the the late stages of the match, and this goes back to the sorry, with the point where I cut you off very rudely, Max. But West Ham make the changes, but I would say none of them are actually all that defensive. It's not like you know, watching uh an Uno substitution where he takes off a striker and puts a defender on. I mean, he changes he brings on Sheringham, he brings on Zamora, and he brings on Daly for Fletcher, so it's almost a bit of a like for a like, so he's still sort of got that's still got a front line of attacking players at this point, and yeah, nothing like you'd see today going five at the back or anything.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

No, and I mean that's the thing. I mean Ashton was knackered anyway by that point, as was Everington. I think Zamora came on, didn't he? Yeah, but who did he get Zamora come on with?

SPEAKER_04 42:09

I know you've got the um We came on with Sheringham, Sheringham came on for Ashton, Daly for Fletcher, and Sheringham for Everington.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

Yeah, I was about to say Everington was destroyed by that point, as was Ashton. I think yeah, Ashton and Everington were done in, but the Fletcher for Daly was the only one. I think it makes sense, you know, to defend the league, you know, have five guys at the back and you know, hold hold out the thing. But this is my thing, Carl Fletcher in my mind is the man of that match. Because you get thrown in right at you get thrown in, you haven't really played much that season. You've you've been a kind of a rotation player, you get brought on for mullins normally in most games or every every few games. But the fact is you throw him in probably the biggest game West Ham's had in, as you said, 26 years. And he's thrived, you know. He was famous, yeah. He's great. He was great. But him and Ryoko, you know, really won that midfield battle. I mean, Sozoko and Alonso were, you know. Well, Alonso came off, didn't he?

SPEAKER_04 43:01

I think he asked to come off. And uh I remember thinking, Oh, yeah, this isn't the Alonso that I seem to have the sort of recollection of, but obviously a fantastic player, but he looked pretty average in the in the cup final. And then I suppose there's this bit that happens about 83 minutes. I don't know if you remember this. The that Gerard goes down with an injury and he looks like he's really struggling. Yeah, and uh he's got cramp, and the commentator says he looks like he's in real distress, and I was just like, Oh, maybe that's maybe that's him. And then, of course, knowing what happens, that you're like what could have been if he'd if they'd had another substitution to make, would they have made it and taken him off? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

I mean in retrospect, we now hope they did because as you said, as you said, he is probably as much as you hate to admit he was probably the man in that match because two goals and an assist. You know, he drags that Liverpool team on the day par him are bang average. Yeah, you know, there is not there's no one really who can hold their head high in that team, par Gerard. All of them would probably. Pretty average, all of them looked too overruled by the occasion. And I mean, I know this is gonna kind of end with us going, we should have fucking won, but that's the thing. There is almost this element of you know, they all of them really struggled that Liverpool team, none of them looked up for it, which was bizarre, except him, and that's the thing. And then you're it goes down with the injury, and you said and see this is another what if we can talk about what if he had got taken off, would we have won the game because they've lost their kind of you know attacking threat.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Yeah, yeah, and yeah, of course we know what happens, don't we? So uh this is this is something I've uh and we've spoken about it on the podcast before, but the the Lionel Scalone, I remember my dad just you know constantly uh berating him for not kicking the ball fur far enough downfield and end up you know going to Gerard who volleys it out from about 200 yards away. But um it was yeah, I felt a bit sorry for him. I don't really know what else he could have done in that situation.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Yeah, I forgot who said it to us when I kind of went, well, you know, it's all scalone's fault. And someone said to me, Well, what else me? Yeah, but I think someone else, and then one of our guests has said it as well. Yeah, yeah, and after listening to you, and then after listening to our guests, I've gone back and watched that guy, and I thought, you know what? They're right. What else can he do? If he kicks into Rose Ed, you then run the risk of a throwing coming in. And the fact is, you know, 99 times out of a hundred, Gerard's not getting on that ball. No, no. Exactly. It was just some fate intervened and fell at Gerard's feet, and he just lapsed it. Yeah. It is very much a hell merry moment for them, you know, uh smashing it in. But you see, I'm sure you remember this, is that as soon as the goal goes in, or see the ball flying towards the net, you just see Padrew's whole demeanor just go. You know, he's I think that's the moment we lose the final because Padre's gone. Yeah, interesting. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

Yeah, but of course, I mean you say that, but we still have chances in extra time to to win it, don't we?

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Yeah, you see, this is the one this is the one sub I wish we had made. Should have brought on should have taken off Harewood.

SPEAKER_04 46:06

Uh yeah, he was struggling, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Do you know what? Watching back the game today, and I know we're probably going to talk about what do we think of his interval player in a bit, but I found Harewood to really struggle on the day. He just was he didn't really do much at all.

SPEAKER_04 46:21

Yeah, I could see towards the end he was trying to sort of be hold it up and sort of be that man, the target man, wasn't he? But yes, it was it was tricky, and and I think if Ashton had been maybe a bit more fit, he might have he might have I don't know, who knows, but yeah, he has that great chance, doesn't he? An extra time where the yeah I think is it Rio Coca's shot turned onto the post and it falls to Herewood?

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Is that yeah, and then he just his his legs just go on him, don't they? It's just the cramp kicks in, he just he just collapses, and you're like, and there.

SPEAKER_04 46:50

And you can you can sort of see, and obviously this is well years and years before you've got the five subs, and you're sort of like you could see you could see an advantage to bringing in five subs because there's a lot of cramp, a lot of players going down with cramp, but 120 minutes is a long time to play because it was a warm day, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 47:06

Yeah, and that's the thing, heat and all that. I mean, I think we're gonna see a lot of that in the World Cup this year. Yeah, you see a lot of players going down with cramp, and I mean the World Cup now you've got five subs.

SPEAKER_04 47:16

Yeah, you'll have five, and then I think you'll be able to make it well an extra one in extra time, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:21

So that's the thing, yeah. But that's see, that's the thing. If you'd had five subs then, you know, you could have really because you I think you got seven subs, didn't you, in the um in the FA Cup back then? You got seven subs to actually name two.

SPEAKER_04 47:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

Yeah, I think you're really. Yeah, and then you'd have to and then you got a fourth if your keeper got injured, so you could take off an out for a player for a keeper, but then you'd have to play with ten players. But yeah, that was uh yeah, that was I think that is the only real chance an extra time, really, that you could say that's something that could seal the game. And you're right, a fit of Harewood or a Zamora or a Sherinham who had to lay the legs in them, if they got on to that, just think they could have finished. Yeah, yeah. Especially a Sheronham, you know.

SPEAKER_04 48:04

Yeah, and of course it goes to penalty. Sheringham is the only the only West Ham player to score. It was a bit a bit of a damp squid, wasn't it, in the end. I mean, at one point it looked looked positive. Well, okay, because Haman scored the first one for Liverpool, for Samura missed his, but then Hippier missed his and Sheringham scored, so it's back to one all, but then no other no other goals, and yeah, it was a bit of a bit of a shame given given the way that the the match in in 90 minutes had gone. But it was a great it was a great day, wasn't it? And I know we always look back as a as to a what if moment and a fantastic occasion. And he so your your kind of man of the match was was Carl Fletcher, was it? Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

Yeah, I just think he I just think we really struggled without him in the midfield after he got snapped off.

SPEAKER_04 48:49

I I will almost pretty much always pick either Nigel Riocoker or Yossi Benoyun. So I think I'll I'll go for Nigel, given it was yeah, he he was sort of captaining the team and he just he just uh he didn't look like the youngest captain ever, did he? He was just I think he was made for that role at that period of time. Yeah, I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

Is it Bobby Moore he nicks the record off? That's right, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Yeah, so it was a nice kind of circ circle to it all. I want to touch upon obviously that is the closest we've been to winning an FA Cup since 1980. But let's just take a moment to reflect on how close we've actually been since then, and I suppose the short answer is not very. Uh probably this year was possibly there's probably a three seasons out of the 20 since where you could probably go, we could have we could have got to the final that year, we could have made it. But let me give you a quick run through of of how we've performed in the FA Cups since 2006, and you can tell me if you have any sort of recollections of this. So 2007, knocked out for in the in the fourth round by Watford, which was obviously the season we were struggling big time. Uh I do remember that one. That was um pretty depressing. I think we're on a terrible run at that point, weren't we?

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Yeah, you're gonna just see me as this goes along sneak further and further into my chair.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Yeah, because some of these are not pretty. Um Man City, third round in 2008, knocked out, and 2009, Middlesbrough fifth round, so a little bit more promising perhaps. But 2000, I mean, looking at some of the teams we drew in the third round, it was also felt like we got a bit of a bad rub of the green at times as well. Um Arsenal 2010, third round, knocked out, 2011, Stoke City, the season they got relegated. I totally forgotten this. I know we did we'd got to the semi-final of the League Cup and we should have beaten Birmingham to get to the final, but I have no recollection of getting to the quarterfinal of the FA Cup that year.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

I do. I have this I remember I remember because Frederick Picky on scores a pretty decent goal. The only reason I remember that, and there's a whole controversy because it hits his shoulder and his arm, and they're like, is it on his shoulder or is it on his arm? Is it on the shoulder and his arm? And in the end, the ref goes, oh, just they just give him the goal. And um we still lost yeah. I mean that stoke team, I think that stoke team actually made the final that yeah. Did they? Okay. Yeah, that's when they lost to Man City. Ah, right, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 51:08

Yeah, no, I I mean that was the Avroum Grant season, wasn't it? I just sort of I think I managed to block a lot of that season out, to be honest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

If I remember rightly, is the 2010 game against Arsenal where we have Alessandro Diamante scores an absolute blinder of a free kick.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

Yes, yes, you're correct. Yeah, what a great player he was.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Yeah, one trick pony, but it's yeah, who is it I saw they were talking about it? Brentford fans talking about Jossa the other day, and it's very much Diamante if we feel that, you know, one trick pony, but it worked every time.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I recently watched, I don't know why, I was watching highlights from West Ham two, Everton free from one of the Allardyce seasons, and Leighton Baines scores two free kicks, and you're like, he was pretty pretty good on the free kicks, wasn't he, Leighton Baines. Left foot yeah, god, but one trick pony, but what a trick, yeah. Okay, so yeah, 2012, Sheffield Wednesday third round.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

Oh god, god was that oh hang on, was that with Allardyce? No, that would have been. Yeah, Alla Dice Aladice had a pretty stinking run, didn't he?

SPEAKER_04 52:09

In the um, which we are about to establish because in 2013, Man United third round. You'll probably remember this one. I certainly remember watching this. Nottingham Forest in the third round, 5-0. Do you remember he played a complete youth team? Yeah, I remember third round.

SPEAKER_03 52:25

Yeah, I don't remember. Well, funnily enough, we were saying when we talked to Callum, Matthias, who I went towards at school with, at secondary school with, yeah, he played in that game.

SPEAKER_04 52:34

Ah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

Yeah, and it was yeah, a bruising. Aladice hung him out to dry. And the United game the year before, I remember that because we almost beat him in the first, we almost beat him in the first part, and then we they lost we lost him in the replay. Right, yep, that that rings a bell.

SPEAKER_04 52:50

Yes, you're right. Was it Collins scored?

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Yeah, and Joey Cole, I think it's the first game we have Joey Cole back.

SPEAKER_04 52:56

Yeah, yeah. Now, this one is one of the years that I did want to highlight 2015. So this was Allardyce's last season, and they started it really well. Do you remember they they had a really good start to the season and they were going pretty well, and there was kind of a bit of a hope that they could either kick on and get European football or maybe do well in the cup, and they had done pretty well. I think they'd be in Bristol City in the previous round, West Brom, and I remember feeling really optimistic that this was the year we were going to do something in the cup, and we just bombed it and lost 4-0. I don't know if you remember that one.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

No, I don't remember the West Brom goal. So I think losing 4-0 to West Brom makes me a bit like yourself, you block it out your mind. But the one thing I do remember is is that the season Adrianne scores the um penalty kick against Everton?

SPEAKER_04 53:44

Yes, it is. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:46

Yes, that's the only thing I remember. Yeah, where he takes off the gloves as he scores the penalties so coolly and then just you know runs towards the Bobby Moore and just has the knee slide.

SPEAKER_04 53:54

That's it. That's it. So so that was one season where I was I remember being pretty devastated about it because you kind of thought if they could get past West Brum, you never know what would happen. But then the following season, Billicher's first season, where they they really they should have beaten Man You. Do you remember they should have beaten them at Old Trafford, and um they United managed to grab a guy equalizer from somewhere, and then I thought, well, we'll definitely have them at Upton Park, and I remember there was so much excitement around it, and um they ended up they ended up doing us 2-1, didn't they? But just the what the vibe around that season and and Pat Pae, the way he was playing, and you kind of thought if we could get past United, we could be on for something here, but yeah, that was that was pretty disappointing.

SPEAKER_03 54:35

It was the two things I always remember from that game. Uh Chiarti gets a goal disallowed right at the end, unfairly. Yes, and and Mark Noble carrying Andre Herrera off the ball.

SPEAKER_04 54:44

Yes, yes, that is that was uh iconic moment, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Yeah, I still it it's been 10 years, but it's still one of those. You constantly it's one of those because it's so classic, you know. You hope, yeah, where's Marky Noble to come carry someone else these things?

SPEAKER_04 55:01

Well, we need more, we need 11 Mark Nobles, don't we? That would be brilliant. So, yeah, going back to this, I'll run through this because there's been very little since then. So 2017, again, possibly bad luck with the draw, third round, Man City lost 5-0. Wigan, 2018, fourth round, lost 2-0, 2019, Wimbledon, fourth round, lost 4-2. 2020, West Brom lost 1-0. Man United, fifth round, go out of the sorry, go out of the fifth uh fifth round stage against Man United, 2022, Southampton, fifth round stage, 2023, Manchester United, fifth round stage. Bristol City, if you remember that one where Panos, yeah, Panos. No, sorry, who got sent off? Um Ben Ramah. Ben Rama gets sent off, doesn't he? You're just like that. Silly boy. And then last year, Aston Villa, third round. So there's only been twice, uh, other than this season, of course, where you kind of like you, you know, you you perhaps wanted Nuno to go for a bit more, but there's only been three times, including this season, where they've actually got to the quarterfinal stage. Any of those that you're like, I you know, just what what if they'd gone for it a bit more or something had gone a little bit differently?

SPEAKER_03 56:10

I remember this the NFC Wimbledon game where we lose to a 4-2, and that was the that's the Pellegrini season where it's we we win one, we lose one, we win one, we lose one.

SPEAKER_05 56:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:19

And I remember that game because that's when an Artifich decides he's gonna um gonna down tools and he's like, Fuck you, lot, I'm off. And yeah, and after that, yeah, we lose 4-2, and then they do the oh actually, I'm staying, and everyone's like, Really? You could have picked you'd have picked any other time to do this. Like you blatantly obviously you planned it in the hopes that we win, and it'd be like a we've won the game, and also he's signed a new contract, and it's kind of like we've lost, and then the guy who's down tools like three weeks beforehand is like, Well, actually, they've paid me a lot more money and I'm sticking around. So it was like, you know, the knife in. It was like, oh gosh. Didn't he didn't he end up leaving that summer anyway? Yeah, yeah, for like really cheap. Yeah, and if I remember rightly, the wigging game is that when Masuwaku gets sent off for spitting?

SPEAKER_04 57:04

Yep, that's the one, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:06

Yeah, because yeah, there has been some real tripe, isn't there?

SPEAKER_04 57:09

There really has. Will we ever win an FA Cup again? You'd think so. Will we win an FA Cup in Heidi's lifetime?

SPEAKER_03 57:16

I bloody hope so. Yeah, if not in our lifetimes, at least in hers.

SPEAKER_04 57:22

Yeah, let's let's fingers crossed for that. So, okay, so let's go back to the match itself. Bit of legacy. I did a bit of a bit of research on this. So I did a bit of analysis as to you get all these kind of blogs and web pages, the top ten FA Cup finals of all time, and I've kind of done a bit of data analysis. So Liverpool free, West Ham free, on average comes at around either the second or third greatest FA Cup final of all time. So uh Betway have got a blog and they put it at number one, football fan cast had it at number two, the match of the day podcast had it at fourth, I think. Shearer gave it fourth, and Mika Richards gave it fifth. So let's say fourth on average. And really the only things that consistently beat it at the 1953 Matthews final, and you were at the we went to that session together, didn't we, at the football collective where they spoke about whether that was actually a great final or not? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_03 58:13

Yeah, yeah, I do remember that. Yeah, and it was a bit of uh was it really that good, or was it just a case it was the first one I'll tell you, so that's why everyone remembers it.

SPEAKER_04 58:22

That's right. And and was it should we really be calling it the Matthews final? Because somebody else also did brilliantly, didn't they? Stan Mortenson. Stan Mortenson, yeah, that's it. Yeah, you've got a much better memory than I do.

SPEAKER_03 58:32

Well, it's mostly because I know a few older academics who say, I mean, you know, I was a good player, don't you? Stan Mortenson. It's like never mate, you've got to remember I'm born in the 90s. I do not, you know, Stan Things is probably dead by the 1990s.

SPEAKER_04 58:45

So So yeah, the uh the the 1953 Matthews final, which some academics say was crap, and but apparently is untouchable for historical reasons, and the 1989 Liverpool Everton final, which obviously carries the the weight of Hillsborough. But in terms of sort of the very modern era, really West Ham Liverpool, are there any would you uh any arguments with that as a as a a list?

SPEAKER_03 59:06

No, no, I'd say no, I'd say probably the only final for me that came any anywhere close in just terms and drama was the Arsenal Hull one from 2014. When Hulk Hulgo 2-0 up and Arsenal have to claw it back to 3-2. Yeah, that's the only final I can really remember being yeah, this is a final I could be really emotionally invested in. Because most of the finals are kind of a bit drab or a bit.

SPEAKER_04 59:29

Yeah, no one wants to lose, do they? Which is understandable, of course, but you kind of need something like a Jamie Carragher own goal to unlock it, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Yeah, you do, yeah, to really open up the game and then Dean Ashton, yeah, bundling it in and a proper bundle in.

SPEAKER_04 59:41

It is a proper bundle in, isn't it? But um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:44

In terms of legacy, yeah, what do you who do you think were the out of the team? So can you read the team again if you've got it there, who played, and we'll go through them one by one and what we thought of them on the day. Yeah, absolutely. So we've got Shaka in goal. I thought Shaka did well considering, you know, I mean Shaka, that second half of the season, considering when we lost Roy Carroll to that back injury, he came in and was a fantastic deputy.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:10

I think I've shared my views on Roy Carroll with you anyway. And yeah, so I've I would have had hislop in there from the start anyway. But yeah, uh, I think if he did well, I mean I don't think he could have done much about any of the goals, certainly. You know, and I think for penalty shootout, you can't really uh hold him to blame for not for not winning that, can you? So yeah, I thought he was fairly solid.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:30

Scalone, right back. You see, I know Scaloni's always going to be the one we're gonna go. He was bloody terrible because he gave away the third goal, but he does get the assist, and fundamentally he wasn't that bad of a right back. And I mean, funnily enough, I watched a bit as we were saying, we were talking about I said to you earlier before we started, I actually I couldn't find any British British coverage of before the game, but I found Australian coverage, and they have Martin Tyler there doing kind of like the like the the guy on the ground almost. Yeah, and he says, you know, he hasn't really settled in England scalone since they saw Thomas Rekpa, who's a controversial figure at West Ham, and it's kind of like Yeah, but he wasn't that bad when you can think about it in retrospect, you know, and as you said, what more could he have done? He did the right thing, just lob it out and hope for the best.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course it was this ball that set up the the own goal, wasn't it? So uh you could say he could get us an assist for that. I think he was fairly solid, he didn't he didn't really lose any jewels on the day. Yeah, was he only he was only on loan for second half of the season, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

Yeah, yeah, and it's bizarre now, like I know we all joke now, like, you know, how the hell did he go from being on loan for us to now being Argentina's World Cup when he got through culture? Yeah. Can can you really say he went on to better things? Yes, yes you can. Anton Ferdinand. I liked Anton. I think that season was a real it was a weird one for Anton because you could tell he was still really growing in his career at that point. I mean he must have been what 19, 20, 21, so he was still really young. Yeah. And I think he did well on the final day, actually. I think it was one of his really great games that season. But obviously going on to the next guy.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:14

Uh yeah, Danny Gabadon.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

Yep, Danny Gabadon, you know my feelings on Danny Gabadon.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:19

Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:20

What do you what was your feeling on the centre park partnership then?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:23

I thought they did well. I can't was I can't actually remember. Was Collins on the bench? Or was he insecure or no?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:30

I think Collins might have been on the bench because I remember seeing him when you see all the footage, I remember seeing, as I said, it's been so long you used to have a mopper ginger hair back there. Yeah, so yeah, yeah. I remember seeing that mopper ginger hair.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:41

Yeah, yeah, I mean I thought I thought they did well, the pair of them again, very unlucky with the goals. I think I'm not sure you could do it, it could have done much about and uh the two maybe the one about Scaloni, you could say CSA drifts off the back of him, but you have to also applaud it with good good football on Liverpool's part. Paul Kincheski, left back.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

I think it was really a really good game, obviously the goal, the fruit goal, but I think he just had a good game, a bit like Skolone, didn't really lose any of his jewels, really good at Frit going forward, and you know, just didn't embarrass himself on the day, which was the main thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:12

No, absolutely, and do you obviously goes on to play for Liverpool later on? But do you remember like 20 seconds into it, he goes absolutely 120% into a tackle with Stephen Gerrard, tries to wipe him out in the first couple of minutes?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:24

I mean, uh, who is it? I forgot which manager says it. I think it might have been Ron Atkinson, brilliantly, or Barry Fryer. I think it might have been Barry Fryer says it to me, one of his players. He says, Just remember, son, we'll miss him more than we'll miss you. So it's one of those in it. If you take Gerard out, break his legs, but you know, you get sent. Oh would Liverpool have really been in the game all without Gerard? That's the real question. Is he another one if that's what we can yeah?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:47

You know, another thing I think we could reflect upon in terms of how football's changed. I think Paul Kincheski almost definitely gets a yellow card for that as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:54

Oh, I think the VAR sends him for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:57

Maybe, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:58

Yeah, but no, I thought it was really good. What was your feelings on Conch?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:01

Yeah, no, good. Good, obviously, maybe a maybe a bit lucky with the goal, but yeah, I thought he was good. Obviously, you know, he goes on to play for Liverpool later on down the line, doesn't he? And uh has a good career with Fulham.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:11

I always liked Paul Kinchesky, I thought he was solid, but you know, he comes back, he manages our women's team. Of course, yeah, absolutely. And that high mashup.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:19

Yeah, yeah, of course. And and and you know, a bit like ging in his in his hair. Did you know that that Paul Kincheski just chose to shave his head and he could actually, you know, it was uh it was an optional choice for him?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:30

Yeah, it is a bit like um Brian and Bemo, you know. If he if he had hair, you'd think, no, that's not fucking right, that is, yeah, because he's just so used to seeing him with no hair, etc. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember seeing him as manager going, I didn't know he actually, I thought he was just, you know, bored, but no. Yossi, Yossi Ben Ayun.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:46

Ah Yossi Ben Ayun, I know we've spoken about Ben Ayun at length. We both love Yossi Ben Ayun. He's a great player, wouldn't he?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:53

And again, also goes on to play for Liverpool later down the line. Yeah. It's mad how many of these lads actually end up turning out for Liverpool somewhere on the line.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, Nigel, I think we've both said and Fletch both were brilliant in the middle. Matt Effrington.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:06

Uh Matthew Effrington was one of those players I wish we'd kept for longer.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:10

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

What a great player, you know. Especially when we from when we signed him until we sold him to Stoke, which was what, 2008, 2009? Something like that. Yeah. I really enjoyed Matthew Effrington. I thought, you know, ringer, wasn't he? Yeah, and I think he should have played for England at least once in his career.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:27

I think, yeah, I think given England's left-sided problem that was much sort of written about, you certainly could have done worse than having everything there. Because an actual left footer, I know in these days you now have players that you kind of, you know, you'd have right footers on the left when you knew they would try and cut in. But back when you used to go 4 4 2 and have wingers on each side, he was he was great. And yeah, maybe he wasn't as technically brilliant as someone like Harry Kull. He was quite effective for goals and and taking players on and getting crosses into the box, and yeah, and and he he makes the second goal, of course, as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:59

Yeah, but he also. Had a decent right foot where a lot of people forget as well. How many goals? How many goals did he score by curling it in on his right foot over the years?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:07

I I mean I don't have that statistic to hand, but no, no, but yeah, just yeah, just thinking, yeah, you can think of a few goals off the top of your head, you know, the Ipswich semi-final. Yes, yes, that's the one that sticks in the mind. I mean, the the Blackburn goal is pretty much on Shri scores on his um right foot. Yep. Okay, Marlon, you you've you've said what was your feelings on Marlon?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:28

I thought, I mean, I I I don't know if I gave it a huge amount of thought. I thought he did okay. He obviously had a couple of chances that I suspect he he wishes he'd you know taken and maybe thought he could have done better with. He's obviously struggling a wee bit of cramp towards the end, misses that great chance. But I thought he did okay. He sort of he was a bit of a threat and he he did well to keep the ball when we were were defending quite deeply, I thought. Which just leaves uh Dean Ashton from the starters.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:53

Yeah, which we both agreed probably best attacking threat on the day.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:58

Yeah, absolutely. And we were just a better team when he was in the in the side, I think. But you know, I I also love Bobby Zamora, and he was good when he came on, showing him, I mean, a great, really good strike force, wasn't it? That and actually, if you remember the the year after this as well, they signed Colton Colt and they still have all those players as well. Because I think Ashton gets is it does he break his ankle over the summer this summer? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:21

Yeah, this is well, I'll never forgive Sean Wright Phillips. Yeah, he breaks his ankle, doesn't he? Yeah, play in England, he goes for England practice and Sean Wright Phillips breaks his ankles and that's like.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:30

He was supposed to be an England squad, wasn't he, for the World Cup.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

Yeah, McLaren, yeah, McLaren, um yeah, McLaren really was interested in him. I think I think if Ashton, I know we're gonna probably do a war shift about Ashton, probably at some point in the future, but I get the feeling what if Ashton had never got those injuries? Do you think he would have eventually he would have moved on from us, right? Yeah, yeah, probably you'd think so. Yeah. Yeah, I just think yeah, he was probably our best attacking threaten the day. And you know what, throughout the whole cup run, because you mentioned Bobby Zamora there, I think he was probably our best player in that cup run, Bobby. Yeah, he scored quite a few goals, didn't he, along the way. Yeah. And he was always our big game player, weren't he, Bob? You know, if you ever needed a goal, you shuck Bob in there as score.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:08

Yeah, and you know, I think the fact that Fulham fans speak so affectionately about him as well says a lot about him and how good a player he was, and probab possibly a wee bit underrated as well. I think he did get a few England caps in the end, didn't he? But perhaps not many as uh as he should have got. But okay, well, there it is. That's that is our uh our roundup of the uh the 2006 FA Cup final 20 years on. We would typically end with a trivia quiz. Unfortunately, we've kind of actually used the questions that uh I was gonna ask you. I wasn't gonna ask you the starting 11. I was gonna ask you which free subs came on. But I might ask you which free subs came on for Liverpool instead.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:49

Oh, I'm pretty sure you mentioned the lineup, and if I remember Fernando Marientes, because you mentioned him early on. Is it D DMN? Oh, the final one's the one that's gonna stump me.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:02

If I'm being completely honest with you, Max, when I watched the game back and this person came on, I didn't know who they were. I had no and I was there on the day, I have no recognition.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

Is it gonna be someone like Letalik or Bloody Silent Pognell?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

No, I remember both of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:18

Nope. Who who's the third guy? Who's the mystery third man? Kromkamp. God, Jan Kronkamp, there is a name I have not heard in a many a time. I think it is for Alonso. Came on for Javi Alonso. Price. No pressure. No, no pressure, you know, yeah. Price, yeah, Jian Kronkamp. That is a name I haven't heard. I thought you'd bring all someone like, you know, Vlad Smisha or one of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He we remember.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:46

Absolutely. So that's it for this week. Hopefully, next week we'll be reflecting on perhaps on a positive results against Newcastle. We are now back for our second season, so welcome back. Hope you've not missed us too much, and we'll be back for another 10 episodes this season. We have also got some exciting plans that we're hoping to announce over the next wee while and and some perhaps bonus and special episodes for our listeners. Our good friend Mr. Martin Godliman is going to tell us, or tell you rather, how you can get in touch with the show. But until then, have a good week and come on you ions.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:21

Come on, you irons. You can get in touch with the show by emailing the West Ham Syndrome, or lowercase, at gmail.com. Thewestham syndrome at gmail.com. And connecting with the show on social media at the West Ham Syndrome. Come on, you on