Irons in the Ink - Interview with Author Pete May | Season 2: Episode 5

This week on The West Ham Syndrome, Andrew and Max are joined by Pete May - journalist, author, blogger and lifelong Hammer - for a wide-ranging conversation about three decades of writing West Ham United.

Pete has written five books solely about the club, from Irons in the Soul (2002) and Hammers in the Heart (2005), through to Flying So High: West Ham's Cup Finals (2015), Goodbye to Boleyn (2016), and most recently Massive: The Miracle of Prague (2024). His Hammers in the Heart blog has been running since 2008 and is approaching four million views.

We talk about what compelled Pete to write about the turbulent 2001/02 season, the emotional weight of leaving the Boleyn Ground, and how Prague fits into the broader story of West Ham's identity. Along the way, we get into some of the more eccentric corners of the club's history - including the short-lived West Ham Hotel and the club's own branded Chardonnay wine.

We also touch on David Sullivan's resignation and Monday night's Panorama documentary before getting into Pete's quick-fire answers, where he tells us his favourite West Ham player, best game he's seen live, and what the West Ham way means to him.

Pete's blog and Substack can be found at hammersintheheart.blogspot.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to the West Ham Syndrome Podcast, the show where we look at West Ham United beyond the match day, with your hosts, Andrew Jenkin and Max Portman.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Hello and welcome back to the West Ham Syndrome Podcast, the show where we look at West Ham beyond the match day and dig into the heart, soul, chaos, nostalgia, and everything in between that makes West Ham United well, West Ham United. It's never a dull time supporting West Ham, and last weekend proved that after 16 years, David Sullivan has resigned as joint chair of West Ham United in light of damning allegations coming out above them in the press and on this week's panorama this past Monday. Obviously, Max and I won't dig too deeply into any of the sort of accusations or or what's been stirred up at risk of liarable, but we would certainly like to send our support to those who have bravely spoken up so far and to those who may do so in the future. But let's turn our attention to the footballing side of things. And before I introduce our guest for today, I need to introduce my co-host and good friend. He's the Thomas Suchek to my Deck Ben Rice. It's Mr. Max Portman. How are you, mate? I'm good, thanks, mate. How about yourself? Yeah, good. Good. Yeah. Obviously, interesting time at the club. There's obviously all the all the stuff around David Sullivan, but I suppose for our interest, there's the consequences of that as well, and how it might sort of shape things at the club going forward.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah, it's gonna be a very, very interesting period. And I know we get into this in the interview with Pete, but yeah, I think it's just I think there's gonna be a lot that's gonna come out in the next few weeks, months, maybe the next couple of years. Yeah, I think there's we're just literally at the tip of the iceberg with all of this, and I think it's gonna get worse before it gets better, but as we spoke about with Pete in the interview, I think there's gonna be a point of it's gonna Yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot of things that are gonna come out, and I think he may be forced to sell in time.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

But you mentioned him there. We're absolutely delighted to be joined by Pete May, journalist, writer, and former lecturer of sports journalism at the London College of Communication. Pete has worked as a freelance journalist for many years, writing for newspapers such as The Guardian, The Observer, The Independent, and magazines such as The New Statesman, Loaded, and Time Out. But it's Pete's books that most people will be familiar with, having written 18 books in total and contributed to several more since his 1996 debut, The Lad Done Bad, which was co-written with Dennis Campbell and Andrew Shields. Five of his books have been solely about West Ham, starting with Lions in the Soul, which was published in 2002, Hammers in the Heart in 2005, Flying So High, West Ham's Cup Finals in 2015, Bo Goodbye to the Bolin the following year, and then Massive The Miracle of Prague in 2024. All of which we will be touching upon with Pete today. Pete has also written on other aspects of football, Doctor Who, and other titles such as There's a Hippo in my system and The Joy of Essex. Finally, Pete is always writing on his Hammers in the Heart blog and Substack, unpacking and discussing everything West Ham related. His blog has been going since 2008, and it shows that Pete's writing resonates with people. As of the time of recording, it has almost four million views. So let's get into the interview with Pete May, journalist and author on West Ham United. Pete, thank you so much for joining us today. Really great to have you on the podcast. Obviously, the first the first question to ask is a bit of a bit of a Debbie Downer, I'm afraid, given, I suppose, in keeping with much of the season. But before we kind of get into the main bulk of the interview, you're the first guest we've had on the podcast since the revelations of of David Sullivan and his and his resignation from the club. What's your sort of initial reaction to everything and Monday night's episode of Panorama?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

I guess we've got to be careful what we could say uh legally, but it's uh yeah, it comes across as very sleazy, doesn't it? And it never rains, but it's pause. You know, we got this after relegation. And um Yeah, you know, you feel sorry for the women who are making these allegations. Sullivan isn't allowed for three years, hasn't been allowed to uh be with the the women's side or the the the kids' sides. I mean that's pretty embarrassing for the club. So uh yeah, I mean I I guess my reaction was, you know, what are the sponsors thinking when they say this and and what are the um what's Kratinsky thinking? You know, I I think it's probably it probably does mean Sullivan's sort of finished at West Ham. But he's you know, we got the problem he's still got his shares and we don't really want them to go to his sons. So you'd hope he does the decent thing and and sells them on to either Kratinsky or or or some other buyer. But yeah, the whole thing comes across as sleazy, doesn't it? And and makes and without without a chief execution executive and a director of football and with a fire sale coming in and no one sure who the owner now is.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Do you think I saw I mean I saw something just just just to finish up on this, I saw something yesterday that the new football regulator might have the powers to force him to sell his shares. Is that is that so do you think there's any sort of weight in that, or have you got any insight into that?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Well, it's uh I mean I'm not sure really whether because I don't think the police have accused him of anything illegal uh whether they can force him to sell. I mean it has been it's been out there, hasn't it, that he's he's worked in the sex industry and run the Sunday sport and uh how he's made made his living for for the sixteen years he's been at West Ham. So it would be good if they did, but you know, whether they have the power or not, I don't know. But I mean I guess the hope is that Sullivan must want to make some money and you know if he gets a good enough offer. And he's clearly uh you know hated by a lot of the fan fan base, so I don't know what is in it for him to say. You would think he'd just like to make a quiet exit now.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

I've got a couple of questions for the both of you here. First one is do you think the independent football regulator is somewhat compromised? I think Tara Warren is joined him recently. The fact of you know she's got a long work of relationship with Sullivan's, could that potentially muddy the waters as a conflict of interest? But also, do you is he gonna make a quiet exit? Because you think now he's gonna want a fair amount of his money back, but is he gonna have to sell on the cheap, you know, as you said, Andrew, is he gonna be forced into selling it, and if so, how much is he gonna sell it for?

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Well well, personally, I'm not sure he's in in much of a position of power, really, to to to negotiate a particularly good deal given the fact that the club's now in the championship, and it's you know, I think the club's bit uh clearly in a bit of disarray and a bit of a mess. So I'm not sure he's got the strongest hand in terms of negotiating. I suspect, as Pete says, you know, if somebody makes him a a half decent offer, perhaps Daniel Krasinski, then he might sort of take it and and and walk off with his tail between his legs. I mean, that's certainly what I'd be hoping to come from this, although of course there is the sort of rumours going around that he'd like to keep it in the family and the shares in the family. So we'd have to see what what happens with that. But yeah, I'm not sure he'll get nearly as much as he was sort of hoping for two or three years ago when the club were in a in a better position.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Pretty much agree with what Andrew said there. You know, it's I mean he has hung on for 16 years, but you'd you'd think money would talk eventually. And if if anybody makes him a half decent offer, he might take it. And you know, at 77, you know, surely he he's not going to be doing what he seemed to enjoy was uh interfering in transfers and uh the day-to-day business of running the club. So if he's not doing that, you know, you do wonder, and he can't sit in the ground, you know, because he he's getting so much abuse. So you do wonder he he can't be enjoying it that much. So, you know, you'd hope that he would set up. Yeah, you you'd hope that. I mean, that's what we all hope, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Is that it I think it's been so toxic for so long now. I think a clean slate is definitely needed, is my opinion. But I think we can I think because we only know now just a small amount of information, it's kind of hard, as you said, Pete, it's hard to say what you can say legally. And because I think panorama on Monday was a shot across the boat about really, you know what I mean? It was a case of yeah, we can say what we can say before the watershed, but we're gonna basically just stir it up and then let every let the court of public opinion sentence him, really. That's what I gathered.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Yeah, I mean it's out there in the open now, isn't it? I mean, it's it's there have been previous articles and uh you know allegations and stuff, but yeah, and you wonder what else is gonna come out now, because the the business about the not being allowed in the training ground that's suddenly emerged. Yeah, that's just dumb.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

I've got one last question on this, because it's bugging me, is do you think now, as you said, because it's opened a can of worms, do you think this now leads into the Olympic Stadium and the links to the Tory party? This is that's the thing, is it is this now a ripple effect that just carries on and on and on because of how much power he's accumulated over the last 50 years?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Well it could I mean it could be I mean it could lead to Krasinsky. I think Kratinsky is probably after not just the stadium, but the land around it. And I mean the the legacy people must be under pressure to sell it because it's losing so much money. So I mean I think Kratinsky can sense he could make a bit of a killing here and either redevelop the ground and sort of build a lot of other stuff around it. And you know, if he owned that land, you know, it it would be a very valuable proposition for him. Yeah, I mean something's got to give on the on on the stadium.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Yeah, absolutely. It'd be interesting, I suppose there's a sort of kind of uh pivotal couple of years coming up, isn't it, in terms of the way forward for the club. So yeah, sorry to to throw you right into the the defense, yeah. Let's let's talk about let's talk about some happier times and and get into sort of the bulk of of the interview. I wondered if you could just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself for anyone that's not aware and perhaps introduce yourself and your and your passion for the club.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, well, uh yeah, I'm Pete May, West Ham author. Yeah, I've been I went to the first game in 1970 when I was about ten. So I mean I wasn't I wasn't from a West Ham family or a West Ham fan, but I started getting into football after the 1970 World Cup. And uh, you know, my dad took me around sort of all the London football clubs, and you know, coming from Essex, eventually we we settled on West Ham as that was the closest, closest club, and yeah, it's been uh an obsession ever since, I think, you know, ever since the days of I just caught the end of Bobby Moore's career and Jeff Hurst's career. I think Martin Peters had just been sold. So that that got me into the habit of uh West Ham selling up best players. But yeah, it's been it's I've sort of been a fan ever since then, and I became a journalist in the 80s and wrote quite a bit about West Ham and then it well, we're gonna talk about the books later, but then yeah, I've written several books on the club as well. So uh yeah, it's given me uh something to do for the most of my life. And uh yeah, I I'm now uh I'm now 66, so uh I'm finally getting a uh a half-price season ticket, which uh it's nice to actually get something out of the club after all these years. And well done to all the people who campaigned to keep keep the uh concessions.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Yeah, that was terrible how they did that a couple of years back.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah, right. And then they say you still got to play full price.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Perks of getting on in time, Age, you know, you know, you get your half-price season ticket now. Yeah, me and Andrew still got to pay full whack if we want to get ours.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yeah, yeah, my sounds are five hundred or so uh I'd see five relegations in the time.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Yeah, we're up to our third. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah, it's uh you get yours.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

We're in our early to mid-30s, so yeah, it's not great, is it? But I was gonna ask, you know, you said that you've been a journalist since the eighties, you've written tons of books. So you've been writing for, as you say, about 40 plus years now. Is writing something you've always been interested in, or is it just something you kind of thought, hang on a minute, I'm kind of off decent at this, maybe I'll do this for a living.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Well, so it's yeah, it's always something I've I've enjoyed. I mean, ever since sort of sixth form at school, really. And yeah, I did I did a degree uh in English at university in Lancaster. And yeah, I guess um I mean it was difficult to get into it. I didn't really become a journalist till I was about 26. But yeah, I was yeah, I always liked that idea of writing, and I was sort of fired up by some of the books I'd read and yeah, a lot of song lyrics as well, you know, quite inspired me to think, you know, this is good, this this stuff with words. So and it yeah, it's always been an ambition to actually see my name on the spine of a book. So that was lovely when you know my first book came out. And and yeah, and I and I got into journalism in the sort of eighties and wrote a lot for you know, Time Out, Midweek, Guardian, eventually magazines and newspapers. And yeah, it's been uh yeah, it's been an enjoyable career ever since, really.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

So so you you mentioned some of those those publications you worked for and and time out, and I think maybe loaded new statesmen. Yeah. That must have been like a great time to be working in the industry, and you know, I'm presuming quite a lot has changed from from when you you know first started to now. Must have been a fun, a fun field to work in.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Oh yeah, it was because there was no internet and uh you know print really was uh was was everything then, you know, you'd you'd magazines would go in the shop and there'd be a huge pile of them. And that was the only way you could get your news, really. If you wanted to research something, you had to go to an encyclopedia or a dictionary, and you couldn't just Google it. Um magazines you know really had really had power. And I mean like yeah, I did quite a bit of football stuff for loaded, and that was selling sort of something like quarter of a million every every issue. So uh interview.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

If you if you know I mean, ask him what what kind of features were you were you doing for for load of the kind of what were the football sort of focus pieces?

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Well, it was um yeah, I mean it was it wasn't all women, it did start off as quite uh quite a funny magazine and with quite a bit of sport and sort of you know music in it. Yeah, I I was doing well, I interviewed Julian Dix for them, Karen Brady I interviewed as well when she was at Birmingham, quite a few of the greatest living Englishman columns, which was just celebrating people like you know, Brian Clough, the old uh forest manager. So, yeah, I did sort of footballers abroad. Yeah, anything sort of slightly quirky. It was very much in the spirit of well, I did write for Fortune's Always Hiding the West Ham fanzine. So it's quite in the spirit of that, irreverent and and you know, the the sort of it sort of quirky side of football, anything to do with the fans and that's sort of filtered through to my my blog and writing, really. There's lots about fellow fans and where we eat and drink and everything that goes with football.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Yeah, because it's a whole ritual you do, right? And it's as you said, you know, you know you go you're gonna get your food, you know where you're gonna get your drink, you know you're gonna get there first and foremost, you're gonna bump into on the way. There's a whole thing that comes with it, and your reverent humour definitely always shows up in your work. That's one of the things I loved, you know, reading about your work is that it's always fun, it's never sometimes you get serious and you have to be serious, but mostly it's done as a case of, yeah, it's fucking shit, really, isn't it? But you have to kind of laugh at it because that's the only way you get through it. But the other thing, you mentioned that you used to write a lot about music, and you mentioned that you like song lyrics. So when you were growing up, was there anybody you thought like song like lyric lyric lyrically wise? I got there in the end, that you kind of felt inspired by that you thought, hang on a minute, no, I really like what you're writing. This is something I can't really connect with.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah, I mean, I guess it went right back to sort of well, early Elton John. I always admired Bernie Torpin's lyrics, you know, and he wrote stuff like Saturday Nights Alright for Fighting, which was basically about football hooligans and uh lads having punch-ups on a Saturday night. And then then, sort of in the punk era era, really liked sort of the clash, Elvis Costello, pistols, that sort of era, and and the Bill Billy Bragg, also, who's a West Ham fan in the 80s, he he was quite inspiring and had quite a lot of football metaphors in his songs, and actually wrote a song called God's Footballer about uh Peter Knowles of Wolves, who became a Jehovah's Witness. So that's a known football songs. So yeah, I mean, all those sort of yeah, all those people doing lyrics and yeah, maybe later you two and people like that. Um probably not directly connected with football, all part of the same.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

I was gonna say, no, I'm a big fan of Bernie Taupin's early stuff with Elton as well. I think uh obviously Goodbye Yolie Brick Rose, a great album. Weirdly, I think my favourite Bernie Tolpins song is actually Ticking Off Caribou. I think it's just because it's all about a guy who loses his mind and holds up a bar, and it's like, Where have you got this from?

SPEAKER_01 17:26

And it's just Elton the piano and Bernie Tolkien's lyrics, and it's like Yeah, that is sort of anticipating all those sort of shootings in America, isn't it? And people just buying psycho. Yeah, yeah. I mean that that was yeah, and just the sheer breadth of what he wrote about, you know, is um was great in the early days.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah, and you think how young he was as well at that point. That's the mad thing about Bernie Tolkien is he's only in his early twenties writing most of the new throwing.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, I always sort of quite wanted to be Bernie Torpin, but yeah, he was way ahead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

I feel left out because I can't join in your chat. Um this has sort of uh gone over. You don't have to listen to all the Elton John, you have to buy the Elton John albums now on vinyl, mate. So well, uh yeah, I well clearly I've I'm I'm I'm I'm a uh big fan, but I I'm sorry this is a bit too sort of uh deep cut for me, I'm afraid. But if we can, I'd love to talk to you about your your first West Ham book, Pete.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah, oh you've got it.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

I remember yeah, getting it back in the day and and sort of just devouring it. And it's kind of that irreverent here of humour that Max was talking about there. But just just one thing just to start off with the front cover. Now, if I'm not this is sort of blurring on the videos, it's not really working for audio podcast format, but I I'm pretty sure that's um a Man City away strip. Now, if I'm very much mistaken, I was at this match, but the one thing I really remember about it was my dad forgot the season tickets, and we used to walk from about sort of half an hour away, well past you know, the friendly calf down the street. So he only realized just until we were just around the stadium. So I remember him having to take it back to the car, and we missed most of the first half. But I I seem to remember it was one of the worst nil-nil drawers I think I've ever watched. And I remember thinking I wish he hadn't bothered going back for them, really, but it's just such a sort of classic book. And I and I noticed that the photo was taken by Stuart Clark. My my question is the photos inside it are real nostalgia trip, and you know, so some of the photos from Ken's calf and some of the other bits and pieces, this sort of old program that you used to get in the sort of 90s and early noughties. It's a real trip down memory lane. The question is though, it looks like you stayed at the famous Hammers Hotel. Is that right? Can you confirm?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah, I did, yeah, yeah, with my my daughter, who was about under one at the top. It wasn't a very comfortable night. But yeah, I remember we bought some West Ham Chardonnay. Yes, basically a battle of Chardonnay with label Chardonnay, yeah. Yeah, it was weird because it was basically just a hospitality room with a bed sort of in the corner, and you couldn't open the window or anything, so it was all a bit it's a bit cheap. And never never actually took off, did it? I mean, I don't I don't know anybody who stayed there really, apart from me.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Oh, I stayed there for my dad's fault, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Did you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Yeah, so you're right, yeah. We got thankfully we got a balcony room, so we actually could pull the sliding door open, so there was a bit of fresh air in there, but no, I would have not wanted to stay in one of those that you couldn't open a window and it would have suffocated. So but the one I actually had a question about this, which was so you write about that 2000-2002 season, which me and Andrew love that season. We all constantly speak about it after time when we're not actually recording. What was it that inspired you to write about that actual season? Because you could have picked a few of the seasons before you go up night, you know, you've got the whole red knap run from 98 through to 2000, where he penny finishes in top half. What was it that made you choose the first rotor season instead?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Well, I mean you you're often at the mercy of publishers and you've got to try and sell the idea to them. Basically, a mainstream did a lot of football books back then. Um I sold it to them on the idea that we've had all these years of stability with Red Knap, and now there's this new bloke come in, Rhoda, and it's gonna be a make or break season, and and they went for it. Um and it did turn out to be a really interesting season, you know, because we started off losing 7-1 at Blackburn, but then ended up finishing seventh. Yeah, it was quite a turnaround. I remember, you know, much maligned players like Christian Daly came in and he had a really good season that year. Yeah, we still had DiCanio and Defoe and and a lot of the stars, and Rhoda seemed to do very well in that first season. Then yeah, then the next season we didn't win till January at home and it all went pear shaped and we went down with forty two points. But it was I I enjoyed doing that that sort of game by game diary format, you know, 'cause it it gave it a quite an easy structure and and they and it included interviews with Rhoda and and Jeremy Nicholas, the uh club DJ and people like that.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yeah, and that's the part I think we l we both loved about it is the fact that instead of it being, you know, a straightforward this happened, that happened, this happened, you'll be like, oh I did this and I remember this happening. You know, it felt personal. And that's what people love about your books, because you you you it feels like you're telling us a story and you're leading us along on it. And it's a great narrative. But I do remember that 7-1 Blackburn defeat. I annoyingly pay fifty yeah me and my dad annoyingly paid £15 to watch it. Do you remember when you used to have Prem Plus on Sky? Yeah we paid £15 for the pleasure of watching West Bam get whooped 7-1 by Graham Sooness's Blackburn. That is Yeah yeah I watched that in the pub and it was a nightmare yeah I remember people going oh it's never been so bad it's like mate you've never watched this get smashed 7-1 by Blackburn you don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah yeah that really was bad.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

What I was going to ask was was there a particular game in that season that really resonated to you that it was a case of you know this is the part of that book I really enjoyed writing or a game you always remember from that season you always someone goes oh yeah shouldn't be that game against such and such well not the Blackburn game obviously but a game we hopefully won the game you really enjoyed oh it's so long ago it's quite difficult to remember I mean I did perversely enjoy writing about the Blackburn game and the sort of it's so good.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

So bad it was almost good. I think we had some good Arsenal away I remember we we lost 2-1 but it was really unlucky. I think Petty scored the winner and sort of handball or there was something controversial about it. But I I do remember that game and thinking you know yeah we're actually getting towards a half decent side here. But yeah apart from that I think there was there must have been quite a few DiCanio goals. I remember DiCanio I forget who he scored against but standing on the uh on the um the uh the the surround of the pitch and sort of having a little midi rally and as he saluted his fans so uh yeah he was a great showman but yeah hard hard to pinpoint it to one particular game now I'll have to go back through my records.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Yeah it was a very inconsistent season from memory it was sort of it was and you're right there was sort of some brilliance in that team wasn't there and there was a lot of attacking flair you know canute and to Caneo and Sinclair and but but equally you know they could go and beat Manu away one week and and and lose eight nil to them you know this week oh yeah it'd probably be the the one nil away uh old Trafford I I remember I went to that and Defoe scored yeah and a flag that was that was a great great and very unexpected win against the great sort of Ferguson side yes yeah absolutely yeah so so you your second West Ham related I know you you've obviously written a lot a lot of books but the second West Ham one hammers in the heart a few a few seasons on after after relegation and then a couple of seasons in the championship so there for their return to the Premier League in 2005. I mean how did that sort of experience contrast and you know obviously under a different manager at that point and what was the what was the experience like uh compared to a few seasons prior?

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Well I mean that was it was marketed as on the front the strap line was about you know West Ham's return to the premiership so yeah the the the first chapter was about Bobby Zamora and the playoff scoring the winner in the playoff final at uh the Millennium Stadium so yeah that was um but it was also it was it was also apart from the the first chapter on on the playoff final win it was also a bit like fever pitch in the I I go back to the 70s and describe my my journey um supporting West Ham right right through you know the 75 and 80 cup wins and right right up to that that promotion season. So yeah that was tremendous fun to write but by then yeah what I remember is you know we'd gone down under Glenn Rhoda and then we had two seasons under Pardue there was that terrible playoff final loss to Crystal Palace 1-0 which was really depressing and and then we'd sold most of the England team we'd sold Defoe Carrick Cole um Glenn Johnson plus Decanio and Canute had gone and that was really depressing when God we had Adam Noland from Wimbledon was playing for us and we had some real journeyman players and I I just remember thinking God we're never going to get back we're never going to be a force again but somehow we managed to finish sixth get in that playoff final beat Preston and then a year later we were in the cup final so I mean that was a tremendous turnaround and I I remember a couple of fans in tears behind me at the semi-final when we beat Middlesbrough just you know because we'd been so low and then suddenly somehow Paduew had had turned it around. There were there were some years down in the championship I remember some of those games under Rhoda and even under Padrew I remember losing to Rotherham under Rhoda when they had the game that got him sacked yeah yeah I was at that one it was you know they had loads of wooden stands in the ground which was really poor you know a poor stadium and yeah and they'd refused to change in the Rotherham changing room and that had wound up the home side yeah and I saw them lose 2-0 at Gillingham as well there were some pretty embarrassing defeats but yeah eventually we got out we only just got in at s sixth place didn't we I think it right up to the final game you know we could have finished outside the uh the top six I remember being at that Watford game that got us into the playoffs yeah we just went on that great run didn't we at the end of the season when it seven games we didn't lose in and that's what snuck us in right of the death.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah yeah it was very West Ham like to uh keep us guessing to the last minute with that what was the thing you found so interesting about writing about that because you as you say we've gone from the championship from the lows to the high whereas it's yeah Red Napy said we've got the consistency and then it's the whole well how's this going to work out now and then she said everything falls apart between 2003 and 2004. So is there anything that you kind of remember writing about that period and thinking oh actually I really enjoyed writing about this or actually thank fuck whenever I don't have to write about that again because that was a nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Well I probably don't miss some of the uh the away grounds we went to it was um yeah I think if you get stuck down there for for years and years it must be so depressing so at least we only we only had only had two years but yeah I don't know it's I mean I I was a lot happier coming back and writing about the Premier League games just because we'd we we'd come up but uh so yeah it was more I think I've tried to blank out most of those uh championship seasons.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Yeah this is basically now turned from being a podcast into a discussion about repression isn't it yeah no Dora talk about it thank you uh yeah yeah I can get PTSD thinking about Rotherham defeats yes you hear Pete screaming distantly and the listeners hear Pete screaming distantly on the pod it's just because just out of the room you just hear his distant scream then we had Trevor Brooking didn't we as emergency manager and parju on gardening leave and some of the about twenty players on loan those seasons you know the endless yeah there's there's a there's a lot of sort of players you forget and I'm thinking of you know Rob Lee you know did a didn't he and Kevin Horlock and some of these uh Chris Powell Andy Melville adds I'm gonna throw that's my name from yeah yeah and there was another noble wasn't there who wasn't Mark was yeah you're right as well wasn't there yeah yeah yeah yeah God you you took a bit of a a break from from the book publishing and didn't publish again until 2015 but you you obviously published a lot of other material in that sort of 10-year gap and and launched the blog of Hammers in the heart in 2008.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

The blog was quite cathartic writing it just uh really it was just a way to get get stuff off my chest really I mean I made a very small amount in advertising revenue but not very much financially but it was just a great way of connecting with fans and you know basically it was fun writing about my friends and going to Ken's CAF and going to the uh we used to go to the central after games and occasionally the Boleyn with its sticky carpet full of beer. But yeah it was just getting stuff off my chest really but it did prove very useful when you know like when I wrote about goodbye to Bolyn, you know I I actually had a diary of games and accounts of them which I could expand. So sort of the structure of a diary book was was definitely there. And it was good it's a good fun in interacting with people as well you know because um it's just nice nice to talk to fellow fans and uh share a bit of misery with them.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Yeah I mean that's what we're doing here right just talking about the misery the fun the madness of it all because that's the thing that brings us all together in it because we don't know I mean this is the first time we've ever met you Pete and we're just chatting here like we've known each other for years talking about the football and do you remember this and do you remember that you go yeah Christ but no you're right I think that's a nice thing having a blog to connect to fans and all that but one thing that always really brings us together is the success and your next book is Flying So High which is all about our Cup Finals which is published in 2015 and marks your return to writing about West Ham books so what is it about Cup Finals that interested you enough to write about them because we've only been in a handful in our existence so I know it's surprisingly a longer book than most people most non-West Ham fans would consider but what was it that made you want to write about a Cup final is it the emotion is it the narrative is it the journey of how we got there like what is it that interests you to write about them?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Well I guess the joke at the time was um it's gonna be a very short book you know a book on West Ham's Cup finals it was um I just because they stand out you know it's if you're a Man United fan or a a Man City fan nowadays I mean they must they they just seem absolutely bored with going to Cup Finals but for us you know it's such a big event and and and there have been quite a few when you I mean I start off with a 1923 Cup final with a white horse which even I'm not old enough to have been at that but it was it was good. It's really interesting researching the old newspaper accounts of that and the it seemed very similar to now there was like a stream of fans from East London treating it as a day out and uh and loads of them managed to bunk in through the uh the turnstiles and uh cause a pitch invasion. Eventually eventually they lost 2-0. You know I wasn't at the uh there was the 63 64 final and the 65 cup winners cup final which was yeah that was really interesting watching those on on video again. I I probably should have included the 1966 World Cup final as we won that as well. Yeah and then I was lucky enough to be at the 1975 and 80 cup finals so that those are both great days and I did have to pad it out a bit I included the two playoff final wins and of course the uh the 2006 epic defeat to Liverpool when we drew 3-3 and lost on penalties. But I think that it was just you know again it was a way of selling a book to a publisher and it it actually came out in it was like the mid to about 2010 or something like that. Yeah so it was it was a good way of selling a a concept of a book about West Ham and the idea an idea that probably hadn't been done before. So again it it started off as an ebook then there is a there's a print on demand print version of it as well.

SPEAKER_03 33:59

So Max Max and I were we did a did a little episode uh a few weeks ago looking back on 20 years since the 2006 FA Cup final and just sort of talking about our our memories of it but also how close or how far away we've been to a to a cup final since then. Are there any kind of years since 2006 that you think oh god we really could have we really could have done something that season had it been for this or that.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yeah well you could you could say this season just gone you know if we'd actually beaten Leeds you know we'd have been in a Wembley semi-final at least we'd have probably lost but lost to Chelsea but but you never know. I guess the the say the last season at the Boleyn when we got to the quarterfinal I think and I mean Payette scored that brilliant free kick at Old Trafford and we drew and then then there was the replay which you know we were expected to win but United managed to win 2-1 and I remember Rashford was really good in that game and we didn't quite get going so you just thought that would have been a really good time to get to the cup final in the in the last season at the at the Bowling which was probably a a missed opportunity. Although uh I mean traditionally we tended to go out in the third round haven't we to some crap lower league team but uh yeah I guess guess guess that that uh yeah the the the last season at the Bolin 2015 would be the one that we really missed out on.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

I was just gonna ask out of all the cup finals you did write about because you talk about Prague in another book we talk about in a bit but up until 2015 when you published the book what would you say was your favourite cup final that meant the most to you?

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Oh probably the 1980 one but just because I I was at university at the time and I I didn't have a ticket for that and I managed to uh get a ticket off somebody outside and uh it was three days before my final exams so somehow I managed to get into the ground and you know that was just a great feeling to actually see the game and beating beating Arsenal of course which is is always nice and and we were in the second division then so nobody really expected us to win but it was it was a great side and yeah Bonds Brooking Alvin Martin they they all had great games in that so um yeah I just just remember the sun sort of streaming on the turf and the uh the banners and the celebrations afterwards so yeah that that was a really good day.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

You followed the the Cup Finals book up with your your next book Goodbye to Bolin as you mentioned earlier the following year in 2016 that Mac Max has got a copy of there. And like all West Ham fans you you know we've got our own feelings and opinions about moving away from the Bolin and and moving to to the London stadium what what what were your feelings about the move? I mean you know some people are kind of pragmatic about it some people are quite romantic about it.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

How how how do you kind of how did you feel about it then and now how do you feel about it 10 years on from then yeah well obviously at the time it was tremendous sadness it was all coming to an end financially I could see the the reasons they wanted to move because it was a you know 4.5 million rent which was reasonably cheap and going down two million now thanks to relegation. But yeah I mean like a lot of people I think it's the ground it's probably in the right place for transport links. Seats are more comfortable but yeah it's not really a proper football ground. I mean it's it's improved since they squared the ends off and at times it has got a really good atmosphere like in the Europa League games. You know towards second half of last season I thought it was starting to feel more like home and the crowd are really getting behind West Ham. Yeah so I'd say I mean I've enjoyed exploring Stratford and the pubs at Hackney Wick and you know finding a new few new haunts and we we all go to the Eagle which is um just near Leighton after Games now which has become a our new local pub and the uh the best Metsay cafe is has replaced Ken's cafe so we've got a bit of a routine but I think you know long term I think hopefully the club can buy the ground and you'd think it's not beyond the wit of modern architects to redevelop it in some way and maybe you've got to knock down one side and push it further towards the other side and I don't know you just think there's some way you could redevelop it. I mean I don't think I sit in the Billy Bond stand, which I I do think that's not too bad and it's one bank of fans which is nice but yeah the gap between the the two bits of the stand on the other side is still bad and the gaps at the end. So yeah it's probably not quite as bad as people make out a lot of journalists always use the soulless corporate bowl cliche but yeah so the rake of it is wrong and I just hope we can buy it and improve it but you know possibly the right place but we just need to redevelop it.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Yeah I can't disagree with that. Yeah I think you're right there's been some games there that have been really special I mean everyone talks about Seville I mean Leeds seemed like a really good crack you know it seemed like good fun. So yeah you're right I think slowly but surely I think the championship will kind of bring back a lot of the old the other guys you know it's a bit like oh well shit again now we'll go again now because chickens have been cheap. That's what you do. You know everyone thinks our tickets be cheap we'll go now. So hopefully we'll get a few we'll figure it out figure it out and actually find you know a bit of character again back in the championship I mean we've got an extra you know five games a season we've got to figure out how to you know get more games. Now we've kind of moving on from good bar to bowling up until quite recently actually in your most recent book on West Ham which is Massive The Miracle of Prague which was published a couple of years ago so we've mentioned that you love writing about either tumultuous seasons and cut finals so is this kind of your way of connecting it to a book thematically because you have got a very tumultuous league season and then we win the cut final at the end of it spoiler alert but yeah yeah is that the kind of way thematically to link it all together yeah because I think you know nobody really wants to read a book about you know finishing tenth or you do have to get some sort of um narrative arc to it.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Obviously winning you know having a bad season but ending up winning a trophy that gives it a great ending. The joke was at the time it had taken me 43 years to write it because we've been waiting since uh 1980. But yeah that was yeah I think you've got to you've got to have something good or bad happens at the end. You know I could perhaps do a book on our greatest relegations I'm not sure if that would sell. But yeah finally winning a trophy after 43 years that gave it a real romantic romantic feel to it and you know hopefully a lot of fans identified with it and and because I'd been writing the blog you know I had a lot of the material about the games already written so it was a case of expanding that and then I was lucky enough to get a ticket for the final in Prague through through a contact at the Guardian I called in a few favours. So that was a fantastic yeah fantastic day and uh yeah very very hard to forget and you know I I really appreciated it you could see Man City fans quite bored at winning the uh Champions League but for us you know that meant everything everything to win a trophy so uh yeah that was a fantastic book to write yeah I can imagine that kind of happy ending it kind of uh gives it a bit of yeah and having written we'd lost 4-0 at Brighton and the fans were chanting you don't know what you're doing at Moyes and you know we look terrible at that stage and but you know I I know it's only the conference league and but I mean Aston Villa couldn't win it you know a lot of other teams couldn't and you have to beat what's in front of you. Yeah trophy's a trophy honestly that's my opinion yeah and it was still it was very very nice to Moyes as well because he he'd never really won a trophy before so uh I remember him running across the pitch. The whole crowd singing uh Dana Bowen's on fire was still was very funny.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

I I I I was interested in your kind of career progression Pete and and I'd studied journalism at university as well. And I wanted to ask you whether you had any advice for you know anybody that might be looking to write about West Ham in the future any sort of tips you would give them any advice you would give them but I suppose also sort of a practical question as to what that process of you your writing looks like. You know do you go to a game and then come home and and and scribble it all down or you are you making notes I mean how how does what does that process look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Well I guess the main piece of advice would be to keep a sense of humour because as as we've discussed it's it's really up and down at West Ham and you know it's either terrible or or going well more more often terrible. But yeah practically I mean I I never did match reporting you you can get into sports writing that way and you know you might end up having to cover you know York City or Barnet or somebody so they tend to start you off in the lower league clubs and I never really did that because it would have prevented me actually watching West Ham which is what I was really keen on. So I got into it really through writing about the fan culture, you know writing about fanzines, writing in fanzines, you know, writing about the stuff you hear on the terraces like uh come on hammers, really pep it up and make it mediocre was one of the best uh best chants I heard, yeah. So yeah I think sort of writing about it slightly peripherally from you know what's going on on the terraces, sort of bigger issues in the game, funny stuff involving the fans, the sort of stuff you might read in a fanzine. Or an online fanzine now. That's that's one one good way in. You know, it's hard to say because journalism is suffering so much now. But you know, if you are passionate, then certainly blog, certainly, you know lots of videos that are popular now on YouTube, you know, engage with a bit of passion and who knows where it will lead.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Yeah, absolutely. And you you mentioned sort of this fleet of journalism there. Did you do you kind of worry about the future of that, you know, going forward as well, and and and the rise of AI? And you know, your craft is is so nice because you have that real personal touch. But I suppose my worry is that so much of it is now driven by SEO and you know, the kind of craft has maybe been lost a little bit. Again, what are your kind of thoughts on the state of it all?

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Yeah, it's sad. I mean, incomes have gone down both for journalists and writers, and and the decline of local papers is really sad, you know, because there there would have been lots of local papers writing about the local football teams, but there's you know m far fewer of those now. Yeah, no, AI is the other big worry, because I think the national papers are still covering uh football and sport and you know, Sky is, but but the the risk is that AI it can just take a press release, turn it into a news item. There's no uh hardly any humans involved. Whether I AI could get humour, you think it probably could learn. I don't know, could it learn to be a uh a fed-up West Ham fan? It probably could, but I mean I I think there's there is a campaign to actually get on books to have, you know, written by humans, there's a little sticker on it, so you know what is written by human. Probably the key is to just get people to try and only buy and read stuff that is not written by AI to support journalists. But yeah, it's a difficult future, you know, who knows? But as long as there's people who care about it, you know, you'd hope there's always going to be people writing about football.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

As Andrew says, the thing you hope that comes through is that you you say you're right in the fact that you could probably learn, but I think we as humanists can kind of pick up what is AI written and what isn't, because it just seems to it's like with your writing, you can tell as a personal touch, you can tell there's actually stories about people, and there's actually what what you've eaten, like god, that was fucking shit, or god, that was a shit. It'll it'll give you a synopsis, but it won't be able to give you those little finite details that humans can write about in their work. I think that's the beautiful part about journalism and writing, is that you can find the real humanity in there.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Yeah, the AI can't go to Ken's calf for you at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

No, no, it won't be able to tell you there that when as you walk past you to get hit with that big bit of smoke, didn't you, when they were cooking outside in the sun in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Oh yeah, yeah, cooking the birth, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Yeah. Yeah. As you go down Green Street, you have the station, you had um Queen's Market, you had Queen's Ed, and then you wear Ken's, and then you had Gary Furma drop on his ladder shot in Overland and see it.

SPEAKER_04 47:06

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, like all the things you remember exactly.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

AI could never really catch that, in my opinion. But we've spoken a lot about West Ham, but we haven't asked you about your other work because you've written about a lot of other stuff, and obviously we mentioned in the uh intro that you've written books about Doctor Who, you've written about other aspects of football, you've written other titles such as There's a Hippo and My System and The Joy of Essex, because you are an Essex lad, born and raised. So where can other people find it and what are the kind of inspirations for the other stuff that I've mentioned?

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Well, yeah, I mean you can find everything on Amazon. I've also got a website, PeteMay.org, where where you can find details of of my work and yeah, via the publishers as well. Um massive, you can get from either from Biteback or you know, or from Amazon, or or just find it in a bookshop or order it from your bookshop. So yeah, plenty of ways. And if you Google me, you should be able to find also my blog, Hammers in the Heart, yeah, that has got details of all the books on there. But yeah, other books is sort of yeah, as a journalist, I've written about a lot more than West Ham. So yeah, the Essex book was just sort of a travel diary around Essex, looking back at the places I I grew up and looking at the culture of Essex, you know, from sort of Ian Julet. I've written a couple of books on the Lake District just because I really like visiting and going up mountains. Yeah, there's a hippo in my sister, and that was about my relationship with my wife and my uh encounters with the eco ecological movement. Sort of written with a comic twist. Yeah, Doctor Who was again, that's that was about being a Doctor Who fan and my my daughters becoming Doctor Who fans as well. So it's just a bit of inspiration from day-to-day life, really. And obviously the The Lad Done Bad, that was a book about footballers behaving badly. And and Sunday Muddy Sunday, that was a book about Sunday League footballers, which was you know great fun to write, and they they were very uh interesting people to interview with lots of great stories. So it's a bit of a mix, really. They say write what you know, and I guess it's just stuff that I've come across in journalism that has you know ended up as a whole book.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

I've got to ask a couple of questions here. Is uh for the football book, what were who were the lads gone bad that you covered? Because there's been quite a few in football that you could easily pick up on.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Yeah, well it was uh that came out in ninety six, I think. So it was looking at you know George Best onwards, really, and Frank Worthington, all the Arsenal players like Merced and Wright who are getting in trouble. Who else? Peter Begrey of Everton drove a motorbike through a plate glass window, uh that that sort of stuff. It was uh yeah, and Paul McGrath, you know, a lot of it, I mean a lot of it's sort of quite sad now looking back at it, connected with sort of alcohol problems. But it was that real era of you know, loads of players misbehaving, you know, Frank McAveny dating page three models, you know. So we've had quite a few uh misdemeanours at West Ham as well, but that that's sort of one of the things fans in the pub, you know, always enjoy discussing is uh you know the uh scrapes footballers get into, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

We had um Chris Lepowski on last week who was speaking about Frank McAveny, and he said there's a great story of um Tabony Caught his leaving stream followers at half one in the morning, and Mac is arriving, and he says, You're just getting it, and he goes, I mean new, and he goes, Hey, we man, this is when I start making it, not when I finish it, and just walk straight past him. The other question I have for Andrew asks the crit fire, and his question is, Who's your favourite doctor who?

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Oh, it would be probably Tom Baker and David Tedant of the new new era, with a soft spot for John Pertby. I'm a Matt Smith. I'm a Matt Smith, yeah. I thought he had a really good manager, doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did he did. Um yeah, he seemed a lot older than he was only about 26, wasn't he? And he was doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:21

Yeah, I only I I have to sorry, I I'm not again this is gonna be um I feel like I'm gonna miss out on this conversation a wee bit, but I did watch it when David Tennant was was uh the doctor, that was sort of the age when I was uh sort of at that watching. So yeah, David Tennant, probably for me. Well no, or the one before him as well. Christ Christopher Eccleson was he was uh he was uh doctor, wasn't he? But I have a question for you, Pete, which is related to this, because I was saying my my question was the the Doctor Who store that was situated outside the Bowling, and you know, obviously your interest in West Ham, that must have been a real sweet spot of a Venn diagram of interests for you.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Yeah, that was fantastic because I'd I I started taking my daughters to games and they were both Doctor Who fans.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

So so having having the uh yeah, the Doctor Who shop Yeah, we used to do the uh the regular trip to the to the bookshop before the game as well, which uh I think t t tells tells a lot about our family. But I will would like to ask you some quick fire questions, as we do to all our guests. Hopefully, we've had a a wee bit of technical problems, but hopefully you'll be able to hear these all okay. So, so Pete, you said your first game, I think from memory, was 1970. What was the first game you ever went to?

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Yeah, it was 1970, and it was um West Ham v Blackpool. West Ham won 2-1. I was sitting in the East End. I think Martin Peters had just been sold, and Jimmy Greaves had arrived at West Ham. Pretty sure Bobby Moore was playing. Yeah, we were in the East End, I remember that, and sort of classic muddy pitch. Yeah, all quite a long time ago now. But yeah, that was the start of the slippery slope.

SPEAKER_03 53:01

You've obviously been a fan for for a large period of time, much longer than Max and myself. But who has been your favourite ever player?

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Oh, well, I'd say Billy Bonds, just because he he epitomized that sort of everybody would shout, you know, sort it out, Billy, and uh just that never say die attitude, the fact he played till 44, and the beard and the long hair, the big sort of buccaneering pirate style uh in midfield, and and a very underestimated footballer too, you know, he scored some cracking goals, was really good in midfield as well. And I should have played for England a lot more than he did. And a nice man, you know, really unassuming.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

What is the best West Ham game you've ever seen live?

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Oh, I'd say it was the the 5-4 against it, Bradford, Bradford when uh Decanio tried to substitute himself and then wrestled with Frank Lampard for the ball to take a penalty and that inspired us from 4-2 down to win 5-4. So that was yeah, that was really exciting. Just for clear entertainment and lunacy, I'd say that one.

SPEAKER_03 54:10

Yeah, that that game had it all, didn't it? Because I'm sure Shaka Hislop broke his leg or something with uh with a you know, and Stephen Bywater made his debut and Joe Cole scored, I think is one of his first goals, so yeah, it was all it was all going on, wasn't it? What has been your favourite West Ham goal of all time?

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Well, well, there's quite a few. I mean, a lot stand out. There was a great Trevor Brooking curling shot against Eintrecht Frankfurt in the Cupwinners' Cup. Obviously, uh Payette scored that brilliant free kick against uh Palace. And and Decanio's volley against Wimbledon was brilliant technically, but I think my favourite has to probably just be Jared Bowen's winner against uh Fiorentina, just not for for its quality, but just because it's what it meant. And you know, we could have lost that final. Fior Fiorentina had equalised over a decent size, and just to score so close to the end. And uh I just remember him he just managed to nick it past Igor, our uh uh who's played about half a game for West Ham. And then uh when he dinked it over the keeper, you know, who who almost saved it, just that running to the corner, you know, that that outboarding of jaw. I think that has to be it, just for the sheer importance of it.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

I do have to say quickly, just to chime in here, that I found it hysterically funny when Pete mentioned Eagle there, Andrew's face just went, Oh, for fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_03 55:38

No, it wasn't it wasn't that. It was I I didn't realize one that he'd played for Florentina, or two that he'd actually even made an appearance for us. That th those were the two most.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

It's just ejection that got me as well. Oh for fuck's sake, I forgot we had him.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

The follow-up question, Pete, is uh what what has been your favourite West Ham kit? And I'm assuming it's not the kit they wore at the uh the the conference final.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Yeah. No, I'd say I mean I I love the sort of classic old kit with no uh with no sponsors, you know, the old um I guess it'd be 70s, 80s, just well probably yeah, it'd probably be 1970s, with the just the clarit and blue with nothing else on it. But I've also always had a soft spot for the older way 70s kit, which is the blue shirt with just the two hoops around it, which I was wearing last season as uh it's I I foolishly believed it would bring us some luck, but it didn't.

SPEAKER_03 56:37

That's yeah, iconic. Who has been your favourite West Ham manager in your lifetime?

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Oh well would have to be John Lyle, really, just because he he won the cup in 75 and 80, got us to the League Cup final. And in 1986 he very nearly won the uh what was uh then Division I, now the Premier League, you know, when when we finished third. So yeah, I mean he you know he had his faults as well. He got a bit complacent towards the end, but uh you know, for for achievements, you know, I think it's got to be him. And he got us to a cup winner's cup final. So, you know, he achieved a lot at the club. And also I I did really like Moyes just because he he made us professional, we could score from set pieces, we could defend set pieces, you know, it wasn't always great football, but you know, at times that counter-attacking style really worked, and you know, for four years we were not not flaky like West Ham sides used to be. So, yeah, a lot a lot of respect for Moyes as well.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

Yeah, very much so. Uh what has been your worst heartbreak as a West Ham fan?

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Oh god, well I I'd say it was the the 2006 cup final, just Steve and Gerard producing that shot. I mean any other player would have ballooned it wide or over, but he produced a sort of hypersonic missile that screamed into the top corner. I mean, yeah, and we just got so close to winning it, and oh and if Scaloni had put it down the line rather than putting it inside, it was oh yeah, that was yeah, I just think to get so close to winning a cup final and then blow it that that that would be the the worst heartbreak.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

Yeah. We've been asking all the guests on the podcast if we were to build a virtual West Ham museum here in light of the fact that there isn't a physical one anymore. What item would you like to contribute? And we will, of course, take your series of West Ham books as de facto, but uh what other item would you like to contribute?

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Well, I think I'd like to put the sign for Ken's calf in there as uh somewhere I went to for years and years. Possibly we could maybe put the burger stand in there with the smells as well. And I'd also put my friend Nigel's lucky banana in there, because he uh every game he always brings a banana, which we always say is that your lucky banana, and if we're losing, we we get into eat it. But it hasn't hasn't worked that well apart from 2003.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

Presumably not the same banana every week.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

I think that would be a uh No, no, it's a different one. Same concept.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

I think at this point, mate, if it was the same banana since 2003, that'd be considered chemical warfare, wouldn't it? We've got that on the pitch.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

This integrated burn out. Finally, Pete, what does the West Ham way mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 59:35

Well, I think it's about commitment and passion passion more than anything. It's about you know giving everything for the the shirt. I mean, the one thing the fans they'll always forgive you, you know, if they can see you're putting effort in and putting in a shift. You know, but Bond's kind of epitomise that. You know, it's it's good football as well. You know, we've always loved we've loved a Maverick, you know, like Decanio for a season. You know, anybody you can produce something uh uh a bit special, and even Paquetto in his early days, you know, he could just produce a pass out of nothing. So it's that sort of passion and commitment, but allied to sort of sort of some real flair players as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:17

Well, can I just thank you very much for your for your time and in chatting today? Yeah, it's been lovely. Really enjoyed the conversation. Really enjoy all your work. I hope you keep it up. And it's it's nice to have that uh your your your writing to look forward to as we discussed in in the kind of myths of AI and all the other challenges for journalism. You know, it's real nice uh to read your work and thank you for everything you've done so far.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Yeah, thanks, thanks for having me. And uh yeah, hopefully we can go up next season.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:43

Yeah, many thanks to Pete May there for his time in speaking to us. Hopefully you enjoyed that as much as we did participating in the interview. Obviously, we end these episodes with uh a trivia quiz to sign off. Quiz? Tended to Sean Connery there, a trivia quiz. So I believe, I believe, must make mistake me if I'm wrong, Max, but it might be your turn to to ask a question. It is Andrew Connery.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

It is my it is my because we were talking about Pete's book Massive, The Miracle of Prague, which is his most recent book. I thought I'd ask you a question here. We keep doing these, we kind of try and name as many things as we can recently. So I've got one for you. So you may be able to get it, you may not be able to get it, but can you name the starting lineup from the Conference League final in Prague from 2023?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:38

Yes, I think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

I start with the wrong goalkeeper, but I'm sure it was Ariola in goal. It was Ariola in goal, so you got the right goalkeeper. Then it was the centre back that went in the summer there who plays from Morocco. Uh again. Again, yep. Who played alongside him and sent a defense like come back to me on that one? I'm sure T Kerr played right back.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

No, actually. Kara was put on as a sub. But he did play in the game, but he thought it was in the sub. Well, Sufal will be right back then.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:15

Sufa was right back, yep. Damn, fell at the third hurdle. Because I'm sure it's he played quite a lot. Okay, so the other centre back would have been wouldn't have been Maveranos because he hadn't joined by that point.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

No, he joins that summer after.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:29

Wouldn't it have been Craig Dawson? Because I'm sure he'd left at that point. I believe he hadn't who would have the other centre back been that oh was it Ogbonner?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

Ogbonner comes on for this player. If you want a clue, don't let your cat anywhere near him.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

How had I forgotten about Kurt Zuma? Jesus. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

If you've got three of the four defenders, who's the left back?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:53

The left back will be Emerson. It is Emerson. Declan Rice, Lucas Pakata in midfield, Thomas Salchek is midfield.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

Yep, there's your midfield three.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

Ben Rama was playing. Yeah, Ben Rama's on the left wing. Jared Bowen. On the right. Mickey Antonio.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:12

Mickey Antonio at front. That is bang on.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:15

But I did get two wrong, so that's uh mate, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

You did really well. You know, because even I was a bit like, fuck, who did playing that final? I had to think about it. I kind of had the rough of idea of most of the team, but I think yeah, I wouldn't have told you Zuma played in that team. I would have been for some. Probably for the best, considering all the controversy around him.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

Well, I was sort of hoping you were going to ask me from his first book, Eyes in the Soul, because it's right in front of me, so I I was uh kind of being a fixture and well, thank you for that. I enjoyed that. And uh thank you everyone to to listening. I'm pleased to report the podcast this last week has now received over a thousand downloads, which I think is it's not it's not terrible for a little small thing that we've set up, Max. No, and we're how many episodes in now? This will be twenty five or six, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:07

So that's not true. Yeah, I mean, that's fantastic, you know, considering where we started, this just is an idea of you and I deciding, yeah, I mean that'd be a bit of fun. Yeah. Thank you to a thousand people who have listened.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Yeah, and we do we do have some fun, exciting developments in in plan, don't we? We're we're hard finding the time to to press on with them, but we do have some some plans for additional stuff. And Max and I were just discussing a fun feature which we're not quite sure we're ready to unleash at least at least on the world yet, but maybe next week.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Yeah, all we can say is that I'm sure our guests will like it. He sees everything, our guests, so that's all we'll say.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:43

Okay, well, thank you very much for listening to the West Ham Syndrome. Until next week, we'll see you then. Come on, you ains.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

Come on, you ains. You can get in touch with the show by emailing the West Ham Syndrome, or lowercase, at gmail.com. Thewestham syndrome at gmail.com and connecting with the show on social media at the West Ham Syndrome. Come on, you