West Ham at the World Cup | Season 2: Episode 6

This week on The West Ham Syndrome, Andrew and Max take on the 2026 World Cup and the question West Ham fans have been arguing about for sixty years.

Did West Ham win the 1966 World Cup? All four of England's goals in the final were scored by West Ham players. The moves that produced them were rehearsed at Upton Park under Ron Greenwood. The composure that defined extra time was Bobby Moore's, and Moore's football education started at West Ham when he was twelve years old. Andrew and Max make the case, scrutinise it properly, and try to land somewhere honest.

From there, the episode takes in the full sweep of West Ham at the World Cup, from Harry Hooper in 1954 to the five current Hammers in North America right now. There are signings that worked, signings that didn't, and at least one that ended with a man climbing out of a hotel window.

Andrew and Max each pick their best ever West Ham World Cup XI and defend their selections.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to the West Ham Syndrome Podcast, the show where we look at West Ham United Beyond the Match Day with your host, Andrew Jenkins and Max Portman.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Hello and welcome to the West Ham Syndrome, the podcast that takes a look at West Ham United Beyond the Match Day. I'm your host, Andrew Jenkin, and joining me as always is my co-host and good mate, Heath Martin Peters, to my Jeff Hurst. It's Mr. Max Portman. How are you, mate? I'm good, thank you, mate.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Yeah, really good. Off a busy weekend. I've been at the International Football History Conference. I had to think of the name there for a minute. I'm the co-organiser. How can I forget that? We call it Footy Conferencial because it's a bit of a mouthful the first part. So um yeah, it's been good. Been messaging Andrew throughout the weekend, chatting about the World Cup, what's been happening, what's been going on. Andrew was telling me how he somewhat regrets staying up for a very turgist Scotland game yesterday. Which I watched yesterday actually, and I do agree, I can see why staying up to watch it live was a thing, because AT really should have got something out of that game.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. See if they found their shooting boots, see uh yeah, it could have been could have been interesting, couldn't it? I mean three points is three points for Scotland. But yeah, I mean I set my alarm for 155 and uh there was a temptation to just be like no, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna go back to sleep, but I did I did stick through it. Would you like to do the speech then? Yeah, tell us a little bit about the the the conference, how did it go, who was speaking, what kind of what kind of stuff was discussed.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Oh well, yeah, we've got some really big hitters actually. We had some really big hitters this year. We had uh Tony Shaw and Alan McDougall, who some of you may recognise. Um they wrote have recently written a really good book called Cold War Football, which is all about the Cold War and how its pi uh you know political ramifications through like ten different games, and that's available to buy now in all good available bookshelfs. Uh we had Chris Lee, who some of you may know from outside right, does a lot of stuff like about fascism and Irish football. So he's written a load of stuff. Gary James, who's Man City's unofficial official historian, who's actually also the conference organiser. Yourself, obviously, me being the really big hitter. Yeah, what were you talking about? Uh I was talking about bubbles. Uh funnily enough, a good friend of mine, Dil Porter, who some people may recognise, he's written lots of books over the years. He's an Orient fan. And after last year's conference, he came up to me and he went, Oh, I've got a title for you. I went, go on then, Dil. He went, Do you not see bubbles as a coping mechanism? And he just walked away chatting to himself. And I looked at Gary and I went to myself, Yeah, I thought cheeky sod, you know? I I thought this year I'll get you back. So I did the presentation, do the bubble do Amm do the Amherst sing bubbles as a coping mechanism. And I said, No, because I don't think we do. I think we're singing because you know, it gives us a sense of community, you know. When you sing bubbles, you feel, yeah, we're gonna have them this time, aren't we? We're gonna do them. I also brought in the f infamous one, which is where you know fortune's always higher, then I look everywhere, we're the West Ham boot boys, then we're coming over there. Blokes of a certain age may remember the ICF singing on the terraces back in the 70s and the eighties. But no, the the thing that Andrew's wanting me to lead up to here was the fact that my tech went down. I was planning to play Bubbles and have the whole thing doing it. So in Fulham's press conference room, there is a bunch of I'd say seventy to five to eighty academics singing bubbles in unison. And I believe we can we can we can hear that now. You can indeed.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

So, yeah, congratulations on on convincing visibly you the uh maybe you're one of the only West Ham fans left, but I know my dad was there as well, and funny enough funnily enough, I met an Austrian who's also a hammer.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

You know, he's um he supports two he has two teams. He has Strum Graz back in um Austria. He's a hometown teen, but he also loves West Ham.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Yeah? For any Markov an outovich super fan, or is he just a sort of No, Norton.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Uh actually he's a Manuel Pogatet super fan. I'm joking. I have no idea. Do you know what we'll get Philip on the podcast at some point and he can tell us the story of how he fell in love with West Ham despite being in Central Europe, you know?

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Yeah. Well, it looked fantastic. I was really glad I couldn't be there. I've been I've been to to previous footy cons, but they're always great events and you always hear something really, really interesting in this this year, but no different, some really great stuff there. So uh congratulations for for all your your work in i in in doing that. I think you went on NACA today as a result though, as you can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, I'm not surprised.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

I'm not surprised. A lot of work goes into that. Now, the the focus of today's episode is the obviously there's a small matter of the FIFA World Cup happening. I don't even know if we're allowed to call it that without getting sued, but the the football international tournament that is happening here in North America at the moment. And so we have a West Ham themed podcast for you, and we're gonna look at West Ham and the World Cup. And that and that kind of relationship goes back decades, and we're gonna explore it properly today. But before we get into any of that, I'm gonna start with a trivia question because I feel like we will discuss the answers throughout the podcast. So I think it'll be easier if I asked you at the end. So I'm gonna make it a little bit trickier for you. So going into it, Cole, no preparation. So you ready for this? Yeah, I'm ready. And maybe people that are listening, they might pause their podcast if they're out walking the dog, they might pause the uh the podcast and have a little think see if they can answer it themselves before I give the answers. How many West Ham players have won the World Cup?

SPEAKER_02 6:06

That's a good one. So Mores Peters Hearst, that's a three. Yep. Are we including the players who've been in the squad or have had to have played in the World Cup final? No, they're gonna have been in the squad. Okay, so uh Ariola for France. Yep. Bernard Lama, obviously with France and that yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

I think you're gonna this is gonna be the trick one, and you're gonna i I know you're kinda trying to jump me up here but Leonard Scalone because he's he was Argentina's manager.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yeah, correct.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Yeah, yeah, Calonia's manager. I didn't know if that was gonna be a trick one because it'd be like actually I'm looking for players, people who played. But um no, there's Galonias manager. Arba Lama. Yes. Yeah, Arbalama, yeah, because I was looking into this yesterday, like 'cause I know later in the podcast we're doing a you know, the best West Ham eleven at the World Cup who's played at the World Cup, so Oh, how many am I missing? I've got two six or seven two.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

What is one is sixty-six Jimmy Cruise and one is twenty twenty-two. Is it Guido Rodriguez? Yes, Guido Rodriguez, well done. Yeah, absolutely. Well done. I wouldn't have got I wouldn't have got that. So uh well done. Hopefully uh everyone listening um along at home uh did did well on the fact there. So yeah, so we've got a number of different players that have done that, and as we sit here right now, as the tournament is underway in in the states, Mexico and Canada, there's currently five West Ham players out there and a handful of very notable former ones, so we'll we'll have a look at some of them as well. But before we get to that, we're gonna we're gonna go back because I think if we're talking about West Ham and the World Cup, we have to start with 1966, don't we? And obviously the kind of old adage that gets banded around is is West Ham that won it and West Ham for West Germany too. But let's actually have a little look at that and see if there's any sort of weight to that or how much weight there is to that, because there's some unavoidable things, but I think if we're if we're scrutinise a little further, we might get somewhere closer to a bit of a a truth. So, first first off the bat, Max, I mean, what's how how do you kind of see that whole West Ham 4, West Germany 2 thing? Obviously, it's a great thing to be able to say as a West Ham fan, isn't it? How much weight do you put on it?

SPEAKER_02 8:26

I put a fair amount of weight on it. I mean, not as much as the Stratford Express, because that's where the actual joke comes from, is that the on the f we win the World Cup, I think, the 30th of July 66, on the 31st of July, the Stratford Express prints that West Ham 4, West Germany 2, Hammers win the World Cup. So that's maybe some people know that knew that or didn't know that, but that's where the actual headline and where the joke kind of originates. But I put a fair stock in it, you know, we've got World Cup winning captain, you've got the goal scorers of course, but you've also got a lot of influence, you know, around that time. You know, there's a lot of um Hammers influence on that. I mean Jimmy Greaves obviously plays for West Ham in later years, he's almost picked up by West Ham originally. Yes, this was during the fifties when Chelsea kept nicking our players by having a bit of extra money and buying people off. I mean, you you know the famous story that Terry Venerables was supposed to sign for West Ham, but they brought his mum and dad to Fred Freezer, so he signed for Chelsea instead. I didn't know that, no. Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of players from the East End who end up going to other clubs because you know, we're like, come play football, we'll look after you, you know. Yeah, we'll give you we'll give you support and the life and all that. And Chelsea's a bit like as Chelsea always do, by the way, out of trouble. So But no, there was yeah, I think there's a lot of influence in there. I mean of course Alf Ramsey's um an East End boy as well, isn't he? He's from Dagnham. Right?

SPEAKER_03 9:50

Yeah, you told me I didn't know, I wasn't aware of this, so uh I don't know how that's passed me by, but yeah, it's good to know.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Yeah, so definitely Dagnham boy. Yeah, so I reckon there's a bit of West Ham influence there, as tenuous as however tenuous it might be. Um but no, I put a fair amount of stock in it. What about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Well, there's some some unavoidable facts, isn't there? I mean the fact that all four goals were scored by West Ham players at the time. Obviously Hurst scored the first uh hat trick in a men's world cup final, and then Martin Peters with with the other, more effectively had two assists and was captured in that day. So I mean if you're just looking at goals and assists, I mean they're what is that? That's almost 80% of it in total alone. So yeah, I mean it's pretty hard to look beyond the the influence of West Ham in that sense. Of course, there's 11 players on the pitch, not just the the three that were representing West Ham at the time. So yeah, it's it's sort of an interesting thing. Let's let's actually just sort of work through it then. Let's let's go from the start. I was watching the highlights over the weekend just to remind myself of how the match unfolded. So the first goal, if if anyone all of this is available on YouTube if you want to go and remind yourself, but that first goal is actually sort of proper West Ham in that it's the 18th minute, I think. Moore is fouled in the Germany half, so he gets the ball nice and quick, none of this sort of waiting around and setting up for set pieces like you get today, where you're waiting a minute before someone actually takes it. He gets fouled straight away. He gets the ball and he has a look up, he's trying to find somebody to pass it to. He's almost about to take a s a quick free kick and then he hesitates. And it's a shame that you don't get more multiple sort of camera angles because it would have been good to see it from a broader camera angle. But you can then just see him deliver the ball into the box, and Hearst is almost unmarked, and it's almost like he he knows to look for Hearst's run, and he's almost unmarked. He's peeled off the Germany defender, they're sort of standing around looking who the bloody hell was supposed to be marking him, and he makes that sort of perfect diagonal ball. So there must be something in that. You know, he knows to look for Hurst. That's obviously something that they've worked on. He knows these kind of his movements and what kind of um movements he's going to make to sort of get away from the defender. And I think Jeff Hurst, when he was talking about it in 2020, he said uh himself that that was a typical West Ham goal. It was something that they worked on at the club, and he was told by Ron Greenwood, if something's on, just do it. And I think that sort of free quick kick wasn't just a sort of improvised genius, I mean it was genius, but it was just a sort of a long-standing club instruction of you know, doing something when you see the opportunity to do it, being executed to to near perfection.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah, and I mean we've both spoken to former hammers in the past, I've spoken to Jeff Pike about this actually, and Pike he said to me that the thing they always taught you at West Ham is think outside the box, you know. The idea of don't just do stuff that's obvious. So the famous tactic John Lyle had him doing was kicking the ball against the wall in the old concourse at um Upton Park. Right, yeah. Yeah. And you have that rush that's length it's just a concourse that ran the whole thing and used to have the walls on both sides. That's what they do is to kick the ball against it, and what they what Lyle was hoping to clock clock from the real good players was they'd get inventive with it. You know, so instead of just one foot, left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot on the ground, can you know, can you chip it up against the wall, can you use your feet, can you use your egg, can you m can you, you know, improvise? And that's kind of what this is, isn't it? It's the idea of having a bit of hang on a minute, I clock Hershey's running, I'm gonna um have a go here, and as you said, if you see something, uh go for it. And that's what he's done, he's clocked her making the run at that near post, ball's been played in the Nursley stuck it in the net, you know. So I think that's as you said it's ingrained in West Ham, and we were chatting about this before we actually started recording, is that uh we talked about this in the quarterfinal for the FA Cup. No, the FA Cup, the World Cup, sorry. See, I'm sorry, I'm so tired of my fucking brain cast. But no, we're talking about this in the quarter final of that tournament, and that the ball, the actual goal that wins against Argentina, which is scored by Hearst, is a assist from Martin Peters, and the idea is that Ray Wilson, who's at left back, plays it down the wing to Martin Peters, who crosses it over, and Hearst knocks it in at the near post, but it drifts in at the far over the Argentinian keeper. And you know, that's that kind of thing of always play it at the near post. And that's the thing we still try and do it that day, we always try and play in at the near post, but the irony is that I I'm not sure if you've noticed this, is that everyone leaves the back post open this day and age, and I'm not sure why no one ever attacks the back post these days. It bugs me to no end.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Yeah. Well, uh I suppose that brings us on quite nicely to the to the second goal and Martin Peters' goal, because he is standing unmarked at the back post, isn't he? Oh shit. Yeah, it's another uh it's a shot from Jeff Hurst. I don't think you can say that they exactly worked on this on the training ground because it was a shot from Jeff Hurst that is deflected off the Germany defender, and obviously there's no absolutely no no way that you could uh predict where that ball was really going to land. But there's uh Martin Peters, who sort of had the anticipation and and the movement to be in the in the right place at the right time, which is a skill in itself. And I think Peters himself, you're right, they're sort of talking about that near near post spot developed through Ron Greenwood, and he he was talking about it to Vision Sport in 1995. Jeff and myself managed to get away with that quite a few times. We worked hard, it just didn't always come off. We were trained after everyone finished knocking balls to the near post and shipping balls to the far post for each other. So it wasn't just something that just sort of happened, you know, they did it again, they worked on it, that kind of near post-far post thing as well. This one obviously a bit more of a fluke in terms of the the way the goal came about. But Peter's also just talking about that, he explicitly names that triangle of Moorehurst and and himself, which was obviously built at West Ham and then they kind of used it within within England as well. So yeah, it it is he obviously puts quite a lot of weight into their kind of understanding in terms of how they were able to sort of get the better of the uh German defence at times throughout that match.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Yeah, and I mean that's why they call Peters the ghost of 66, don't they? Because no one, as you said, no one clocks him at the back post there. So as Hurst puts the ball in, Peters is e can catalise on that rebound. Yeah. And just knock it in the net without even really thinking about it, because it's instinctive, as you said, him and Hearst are working together as a duo, and you've got Pobby back in defence who's looping balls in.

unknown 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

You know, there's something there constantly happening. And as you said, this is very much the long running joke, in it, is you can never win a World Cup without three West Ham players in the team. Funnily enough, I was at Fulham and we were get given a bit of a tour by the stadium tools manager, and he said, Well, you know what they say, you can never win a World Cup without a Fulham player in your team. And I was near the front, Well, well, stop there a minute, lass. But we all know you can never win a World Cup without three West Ham players in your team. Sort it out. And they went, Oh, here he goes again, and it's like, but I'm not fucking wrong.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Well, well, this is this is this is sort of my point, is uh you know, other other fans of other clubs must be sort of sick of West Ham talking about this, I guess. Uh but yeah, I mean there is certainly a lot of weight that you can sort of put onto it, and just that kind of understanding that they had between one another. So obviously, but Peter scores 78 minutes, you'd think you'd think that would be it. You know, obviously German West Germany score, I think is it 90th minute or stoppage time, or it's very, very late on the time. To take it to extra time. To take it to extra time, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

And that's when Ramsey says to them famously, don't they? You've beaten them in normal time, now go and beat them in extra time.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So that takes us to the third goal of the match, again, Jeff Hurst on 101 minutes. Possibly the the the most controversial goal in a World Cup final?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah, I think so. So yeah, I mean, is it a goal? Isn't it a goal? What sh I mean we've actually never spoken about this. What's your opinion on it? Do you think it's a goal?

SPEAKER_03 17:44

I don't I don't want to get lambasted by West Ham fans, but I don't actually think it crosses the line.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Yeah, I'm one of those. I think it bounces on the line and maybe it goes a little over, but I don't yeah, I think would VAR give it in this day and age. That's always a long-running joke, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 18:00

Yeah, would yeah, if they had goal line technology, would it have stood? I don't know. I mean some people have used AI to try and work out whether it's sort of crossed the line, but I don't know. I don't think anyone will ever ever know, will they? But obviously he he's obviously fairly convinced they does. But again, it's that watching it again, the shot itself is fantastic. The movement he makes, and there's the ball that comes in from Allen Ball on the right hand side, kind of whips it in, and he's sort of that that first touch to bring it down and get the shot away, is is such a fantastic piece of movement and skill. Obviously, he claims that the ball's over the line, but he's probably got the worst view in the entire stadium given that he's he's on his ass at the top.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

And uh that's the roll-only joke is that Roger Hunt actually has the better view because Hunt's at that point running in Roger Hunt, who plays for Liverpool, is running in to put the rebound in, and he's the one who puts his hands up first like that to celebrate. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but funnily enough, uh do you remember I'm getting a bit off topic here, but it is relevant. Do you remember PAI Capital from a few years ago and they wanted to buy West Ham?

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Yes, yes, I did.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Yes. And the guy who wanted to buy it was Az Azerbaijani, weren't he? Yes. From Azerbaijan. And famous I'm not sure if you remember this, but actually he rem he references that is that, you know, is that Azerbaijan is involved in West Ham's history, even though they call him at the time the Russian linesman because Azerbaijan is still part of the Soviet Union at that point. Yeah, he says, you know, the guy who actually gave England's third goal was Azerbaijani, you know, and that's a link to West Ham, and that's like, mate, you're fucking clutching a straws here, but fair enough.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

I didn't know yeah, okay, that's interesting. I didn't know that, because I remember the commentary again, just going back to to I haven't watched it yesterday, they were saying they speak Russian and Turkish, they don't speak German or English. So that was kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

So that's what I think. Yeah, it's Ken Faustenheim who says, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 19:52

When it goes, is it a goal, is it a goal? And he goes, Oh, the Russian linesman's giving it. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

And they all ran away celebrating, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But again, yeah, that kind of near post movement. Okay, okay, it was Alan Ball with the with the lacrosse in this time, but it's kind of that movement that Hearst was talking about, wasn't it? The the fact that him and Peters were practicing that specifically after training. So another kind of something, another piece of sort of West Ham training coming into the to the England four there. And then the fourth one, again, is very sort of it's it's more with the ball, and this is a great one because this is perhaps the most West Ham moment of the entire final. Seconds remaining, the ball comes into Bobby Moore in his own penalty area. I think I can't remember, I think Jack Chalton's talking about it in a 2006 documentary. He's he's saying, I'm yelling berserk at Bobby, you know, get rid of it, give it to give it to Gordon Banks, get it into the stand anywhere. But Bobby just nods, runs on, has a look up, sees Jeff Erst in in space in the opposition half, lovely little ball into chest. So rather than just panic, he's already thinking about picking out his teammate. And Jack Chelton said something about like how he knew at that point like he would never be a good as good a footballer as Bobby Moore, just as controlled as he was and calm as he was at that moment in time, you know, in the World Cup for seconds within their grasp to have that kind of composure and poise to pick out a teammate and not panic and think about just punting it in stance, which is a hundred percent what I'd be doing in that situation. I think it's fair to say. I would just be like, get rid, empty it. I'm sure uh under Sam Allardyce's instructions, he probably would as well. But yeah, he and he could kind of Jack Cholton talked about he could sort of barely process that he was what he was watching and the kind of respect that he had for Bobby and the kind of and I think that comes from um that there's sort of certainly been a discussion about how Ron Greenwood was encouraging them to never kind of kick the ball out of play, always try and find a teammate, kind of always you know get your head up and and and find someone in space. So again, maybe a bit tenuous and that in that set stretch to say it was West Ham, but he he was kind of coded in that sense to to do something productive with the ball. And then, of course, that's sort of undermining some of the quality of Jeff Fursky's thing. Still got quite a lot to do at that point. And again, this would be it where it'd be great to see a a sort of um a zoomed out version because you can see he's got the ball, and you can see a West Germany defender that's kind of close to him, and but you're like, why isn't he going towards him? But he actually drifts off, so there must be another England player that's up supporting him. But he goes it alone, going, Yeah.

unknown 22:22

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

You can't see that in the footage.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

No, and for me Dad's 60th birthday a few years back, we actually went to see an eve. Do you know they do like these evening whiz with footballers? Yeah. Yeah, Jeff Hurst was over our way in West London, and we went to see, and it was a fantastic night. And so and he says about that guy when he's 66. He says the ball comes over from Bobby, sees it come over his left shoulder, and he catches it on his left foot and drives it. Right? So as he's running in, running in, he says, all he can hear is the squeaky voice of Alan Ball going, Hursty, Hursty, Hursty, pass it to me, I'm free, I'm free. And he says, in my mind, I think, fuck you, baller on an act trick, I'm gonna score this. And he says he said, honestly, he said he said, I was running in and he said part of me was like, Ah, do you know what? I'm just gonna stick it on stick it past it and boom it so far into the stands, you know, we'll win the game because it'll take so long to get it back. Because if you remember the old Wembley, the um it was a nightmare, you know, because you wear the stand, then the running track, and then you wear the stands, yeah. I mean some stadiums work with running tracks, some don't. Well they did knock that one down to be fair. So they did knock that one down to be fair, but it was still a great stadium. But what I was gonna say was um yeah, that's when he he decides he's actually gonna knock it in past the he's gonna knock it past the post and out. So for him to actually knock it in, you know.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

With his weaker foot.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

With his weaker foot, yeah. Into the top into top bins. That was actually an accident. He never meant to do it.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Was postage stamp, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, proper postage stamp, bang, top, no messing about, yeah, and that's the famous line, they think it's all over. It is now it is now, yeah. There's some fans on the pitch. Yeah. They think it's all over, it is now. Funny enough, I was talking about FootyCon. There was a presentation on Kenneth Walson home there. And the presenter purposely avoided that because he knew everyone would want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Yeah, but I was chatting to the presenter afterwards. Well, he always had a soft spot for West Ham, he went, Oh, he did love good football. And he said, I think that's why he always really liked Hearst and Moore and all that, because they played good football. Uh-huh. But that's maybe another episode for us, you know, talking about Roth played football and its influences and why Greenwood was always about playing on the front foot. The West Ham way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's let's talk about Greenwood because so obviously that that's kind of the match itself. Bobby goes on to to lift the trophy. That just that real classy act, isn't it? That sort of iconic image of him wiping his hands to make sure that his hands are clean, to shake hands with the Queen. Just a real classy gentleman. But then let's let's sort of talk about the kind of the broader influence, I guess, or the deeper argument. So we've got Ron Greenwood's philosophy. And again, Martin Peters talking in a Vision Sport documentary in 1995. He was saying that Ron Greenwood, when he arrived at West Ham in 1961, transformed the kind of approach to training. And he said, we were just a different attitude to the way to play the game, really, even down to training. It was a really continental style training. It wasn't just running around the track, it was more about limbering and exercising and using the ball. And it kind of reminded me a little bit of what the Arsenal players spoke about in terms of Venga's influence. You know, it was much more around kind of stretching and agility and not just about sort of cardio, but also doing more work with the ball as itself. And then in 1963, Ron Greenwood took the youth squad to New York to play against Italians, Brazilians, and French sides in a summer league tournament, and Peters called it such a great learning curve to play against sides of the Italians and Brazilians and French, and that's obviously three years prior to '66 and the World Cup. And the other thing to mention here as well is that when Malcolm Allison was coaching the youth team at West Ham when Moore was 12, Allison told Maud you must always know what you're going to do with the ball before you receive it. So he always had that kind of idea of like you know, just having that sort of understanding of what is going on around you, who's in space, you know, what you're going to do with it. And that's where you can tell like where the great players are, isn't it? Just they instantly know what they're going to do with it before they get it. And they just make it look so easy, so much easier than it than it is. So yeah, you can sort of look at other influences in terms of those three players and their influence in the squad as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

And I was going to mention Malcolm Allison, but you beat me to it. No, no. What I was going to say was, yeah, Malcolm Allison is really the a lot of people kind of don't give him and Campwill enough credit because they are the ones who I mean it really starts in 53, right, with the famous match of the century where England lose because they've been outplayed by the Hungarians who are playing that give and go football. Yeah. And that's when they're like, actually we can do this at West Ham, we can make it quite good. And that yeah, Malcolm Allison loves Bobby. I mean Gary, who we've mentioned a qu a couple of times in the podcast already, actually said to me that he went and met Malcolm Allison before he died, and he said that in his house that he had two pictures up on the wall, one of his him and his wife, and the other one of him and Bobby. And he said that you know said I think in Malcolm Allison's minds, Bobby Moore was his greatest one of his greatest ever achievements. He won all those trophies with City, he you know, he did all that great stuff under with him and Joe Mercer and all that kind of carry-on. But I think seeing Bob turn into the player he did was I think something really special to Malcolm Allison. And Malcolm Allison was all about giving go football. And he negotiated that in West Ham. So I think he made Greenwood's job a lot easier. So when the time came, you know, you as you said taking the youth team out, they've been blooded in it by Allison, and then Greenwood's taking an interest in you and wants to do the same thing you're like, and he's the first team manager and he wants to do this. It's like, okay, yeah, you know, he's a guy who believes in us.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

I think that's why managers like Greenwood and people like that are revered, a bit like Pep is in this day and age, is because you know they entrust people to play good football. And that's the thing, lose and draw, you're respectful of it, and you just have good times with it. And I think that's what we love about West Ham in it, because it's if you play on the front foot and you play well, everything else is very much consequential.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Well, I think that's so so when we've asked guests on the on the podcast, I'm sure we'll do something more with this at some point. Yeah. But when we've always asked them about, you know, what is the West Ham way? I mean, what's been interesting is, and I and I know uh fans at other clubs give West Ham fans stick, don't they? Oh, they just want to play the West Ham way. What is the, you know, and obviously Sam Allardyce was saying, well, what is the West Ham way? Is it sort of underachieving for years upon years? But actually, one thing that does come from it is trying to play good football and and trying to sort of just give it your own and that grit and determination. And I suspect, you know, if I was being Devil's Advocate, most fans would say that they would want their teams to try and play good football. But there is certainly something around that, and I think um, you know, Malcolm Allison and Greenwood, they were trying to develop this kind of fluid positional play, you know, the passing move that you're talking about, feeling comfortable on the ball, not just perhaps the more physical side of the game that wit is perhaps coming back into fashion a bit more, but you know, taking the ball in tight spaces, playing with it, and as you say, trusting trusting players with the ball. So perhaps Sir Alf Ramsay didn't feel the need to try and retrain any of those three in that sense, and that what he was you know getting was three excellent footballers first and foremost.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah, and I was gonna say this is kind of us really dipping into our history side of things here, is that Alf Ramsey is playing, you know, um what was it the Russian kick upper? Which is the the kind of the hybrid between you know that really horrible physical game but also rushing, you know, and but also trying to actually play football rather than just booting people up in the air like as you says coming back into fashion now. Yeah, that was the kind of thing. You know, Alf Ramsey was blooded in that and then he finds players, and West Ham is essentially a perfect breeding ground for him, really, when you think about it. As you say, I mean Bobby Moore, as we've kind of you mentioned there, just had the nouse. You know, he wasn't the fastest, nor would you say he was the strongest, but he just had a brain that just set him aside. I mean, the famous one in this from Jock Steen is that it should be a law against him because he knows what everyone's doing 20 seconds before they do. Well 20 minutes as one of the two.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and you know, just his performance, obviously Hearst gets all the kind of credit, doesn't he, for the hat trick. But um you know, more had an outstanding game. I think Glenn Hoddle watching him, his review of the final said, I don't think he gave two passes away the whole match and extra time, and he looked like he could play in any era. You know, he's just a kind of timeless kind of classic. And maybe I'm joking about who you might compare him to in today's age, maybe I suppose in the England setup, maybe someone like John Stones, you know, somebody that's obviously got the physical part but is also very technically good, good on the ball, quite comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

So do you know who I'd honestly say he's like in this day and age, who I kind of think is probably, in my opinion, is the best defender in the world is Virgil van Dyke.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

I was gonna say Virgil van Dyke, yeah, yeah. And you know, I know that he's always referred to as a Rolls-Royce of a player, isn't he? Just the way that it is. Calm down. Yeah, well just uh Is he a Rolls-Royce, Rolls Royce or a Rolls Royce of a player. But he he you know, he he certainly I mean I remember watching him play for Celtic before he moved to Southampton, and as I can't remember quite, it might have been St. Johnston. There's one game where he takes it, takes the ball from centre back and he he runs the entire length of the pitch through the you know the opposition defence and finishes it. But he's kind of got that ability to to do that, hasn't he? And yeah, it kind of I suppose Bobby Moore also had that. There's a couple of games or goals you can you can think back to where he's um he's replicated something like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Okay, so quick thing. The mad thing is is that a lot of people I'm gonna do a lot, okay, not a lot of people know that. Um did you know that Bobby almost left West Ham before the tournament? I didn't, no. Yeah, supposedly he was out of contract in 66. Right? And supposedly Bill Nicholson was trying to get him over to Tutnam and he was keen on the move. Yeah. And believe it or not, it was a consortium of West Ham fans, because West Ham are like, oh no, stick out your ass, we ain't paying you that. But yeah, a few fans, including Bill Larkin, who used to sell peanuts at Upton Park. I found the story out from my grandma because Bill Larkin used to drink in um my grandma's pub in Ilford. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, supposedly they all got together the money and pays for Bobby's contract for the next few years, which I think was about fifteen grand, you know?

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Oh yeah. Well that's something, isn't it, when when you know fans are uh dipping into to keep a player, that's when you know that you you're onto something special.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Yeah, exactly. But sorry, I've interrupted you. What were you gonna say as to move on to our next point?

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Well, I suppose we should look at the other side of the debate, really, shouldn't we, as academics? You know, there's always two sides to the story, and as we say, most fans are probably sick of of hearing West Ham bang on about the 66 and uh their influence on it. So, you know, there's there's more than the obvious fact is there's more than the free players on the pitch and obviously quite a lot of other influences from other clubs in that England starting lineup. But we should probably also talk about the manager, right? So, as you say, uh Dagan and Boyers are unaware of that, but it the wingless wonders. I mean, what do you know of the wingless wonders?

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Well, very much like West Ham. You watch that West Ham team, we are playing 4-3-3, and I think Ramsey's somewhat influenced by that, but also as I said, the kick and rush and all that, and I think yes, the idea of you can create space like Ball and Hurst do, because Hurst plays on the left, ball on the right, and then hunt through the middle. You know, but also you've got Peters bombing in from deep, you've got Chelten bombing in from deep and causing trouble. Yep. You know, that the it's very much it's the prototype of what the Hungarians and what all those teams who've got attacking flat started to really think about attacking flare in the 15th and 16s was doing, and Ramsey was just picking up what was going on and did something well with it. But I was going to say about the other players is that, as you said, you've got Styles, who's holding it all together there as you've got Moore, Charlton, you know, you've got George Cohen at right back, Ray Wilson at left back. But also you exactly the whole team is well balanced, that's the main thing, and that's why it can work. But also Gordon Banks, who I'm sure you knew this almost signed for West Ham, not long after the World Cup.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Yes, yeah, and I remember uh oh I actually struggling to remember which guest we had on that was talking specifically about it, but felt we got a the the kind of the rough end of the stick with the other was it Bobby Ferguson that we signed instead?

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Yeah, because it was a gentleman's agreement between him and Ron Greenwood. Yeah, that Greenwood had agreed to sign Bobby Ferguson, but when Banks had come up and said, Yeah, I want to play for West Ham, Greenwood's like, well, sorry, you can't because I've already signed this other fella, which in hindsight I know Greenwood is a great manager and you know kind of a legend at the club, but like all great legends, you don't get everything right.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

So yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean there's obviously that factor, the fact that uh Ramsey obviously assembled this whole squad, not just the the kind of the the the West Ham trio. He apparently was a sort of phenomenal one-to-one man manager, would sort of undertake meticulous preparation, including film analysis of opponents, which you think about, yeah, that's kind of bog standard today's standard in today's game, isn't it? But for 1966, probably perhaps not conducted everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Now I'm reading a book about Sir Ralph at the moment, actually. I'm sure some of you may have seen it's called The Unseen Sir Ralph, and it's kind of like a bit of a different look at Sir Ralph, Rousey. And supposedly he was a fanatic, you know, and after his career finished in football, he didn't really know what to do with himself because that's all he'd ever known and all he'd ever done. So I think that's the thing, he was so obsessive about it. I mean the England manager you've got so much time to obsess over football because you're playing maybe what? Yep, two dozen games a year at most if you've got a tournament going on. So yeah, he he was an obsessive about it, he was always looking at different players and he was always looking in and around it. I mean, there's a whole reserve team that goes out, all the England B. And John Charles, the famous John, not the least striker, but Arch John Charles, you know, the black trailblazer, was actually playing, you know, in the reserve team in sixty-six, and Ramsey had an eye on him and potentially he could have been England's first black player years before Fidd Anderson.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Right, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

So yeah, there's something that a lot of people may not know I've been reading into recently, but yeah, supposedly to he was always thinking about football. So as you say, why it's now box standard to do like three minute packages to say this is where you need to improve, this is what you need to do. Ramsey's doing that, saying, Look, if you do this and you do that, and it'll make you a better player. So I think having that fanaticism almost about the game helped England massively.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Well, here's one for you then. So apparently Martin Peters obviously scored in the final. Apparently, he barely made the final. Jeff Hurst was quoted as saying that Sir Ralph Ramsey wasn't sure about him, and Greenwood was effectively lobbying for Peter's inclusion. And I think Jeff Hurst used the quote, ramming Martin down Ramsay's throat. So the man that scored that goal perhaps almost didn't play.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Yeah, and I was about to say, obviously, and then it always becomes the Greaves argument, don't they, is do you play Greaves instead of Hers 'cause Greaves' your best striker. Yeah. But Hearst has seen you through, you know, the the two most important games in the quarters in the semis. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously, benefit of hindsight, he he made the right call, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah, because as he if he dropped on one of the two, right, he'd be dropped for her uh Greaves with Hearst or Peters wouldn't drop for Greaves. But thankfully, you know, as much as Jimmy Greaves is a fantastic striker, you know, I think you've got to stick with the team to put you there in the end, didn't it? It becomes a point of loyalty over you know, class.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

It's a bit of a bit of um a mirror to what was it, the Euros when Harry Kane wasn't properly fit, wasn't there? And everyone was sort of I mean he was he's clearly the best striker, but there is an argument for not starting him because he's he's not entirely fit. So you sure that's had the the sort of the experience or knowledge to know that that you know and hearst was inform and scored goals in the in the quarterfinals, so yeah. There's also the fact I think it would be easy to detract from the fact that Bobby Chelton, and in in the in the highlights package, he is effectively being man-marked by Beckenbauer. So whilst Beckenbauer's sort of attention is being occupied by Bobby Chelton, that's creating a bit of space for for Hurst. So there's also that kind of argument, which is you know, Bobby Chelten's doing the thankless task of of detracting and and distracting Beckenbauer, which is sort of freeing up a bit more influence for for some of the other players on the pitch.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Yeah, which famously becomes the big thing in 1970, right? Of having Bobby Chelten was the thing that loses England in the quarterfinal because he is again killing Beckenbauer out of the game. And when we take Chelten off, you know, Beckenberg goes on the front foot again and Germany win the quarterfinal and then go on and lose in the semis, which is a bit of a stickler, really.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah, yeah. Here's here's a sorry, I know we should be talking about West Ham, but let's talk since it's the World Cup. We can we have license to talk about England more broadly. Let's talk about the the 1970 World Cup and the West Germany game. The goal they score, I'm sure Alan Ball takes one in the nuts, which is hardly ever spoken about just prior to um West Germany scoring the winner.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

You've missed you've missed an absolute trick there. Go on. Alan takes it in the ball. You missed an absolute trick there. You missed an absolute trick. Jesus, mate. Oh crust. No, you're right. I think but there's a lot that goes on in that World Cup. I mean, Bobby gets arrested doing in Columbia before the World Cup.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

So, you know, West End once again in the forefront. Yeah. Yeah. I remember yeah, just a lot just going wrong with that World Cup, isn't there?

SPEAKER_03 40:02

But uh Yeah, yeah. Watching I mean the golden generation, I know you mentioned that on a previous podcast, the documentary. I mean, quite a lot goes wrong in that World Cup as well, doesn't it? I know and again, it's easy to think everything's happening to your team. I'm sure other countries are contending with injuries and you know media scrutiny and everything, but it does always sort of feel a little bit like oh blind, why me?

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah, I mean the French are the famous ones for capitulating, yeah. I mean I watched the one, the 2010, you know, where they uh absolutely just walked off the pitch in the end and just abandoned their manager.

SPEAKER_03 40:32

Yes, the uh what was his name?

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Roger Dum And that was uh Raymond uh Raymond, that was Raymond Dominic or something. Yeah. Yeah, Dominican or something.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

He looked like a detective.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

He did, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah. That kind of look. Yeah, probably thought he was Bergerat more like Close High, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_03 40:49

So um So sorry, we were talking, we were talking, let's get let's go back to 66. So we were talking about Alan Ball there taking one in the balls. But Pearce himself said that Ball, arguably the best player on the pitch, gave it he thought he was man of the match that day. And 21, 21 years old from Black Ball, he had ran the kind of the left side of that German defence ragged for for 120 minutes. So and of course it's balls cross that creates that controversial third goal as well. So yeah, there's obviously uh a few other things that are perhaps not mentioned about the final to kind of help thicken the plot.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Yeah, 100%, 100%. And you should say in 70, you know, Charlton Charlton being sub means Beckenberg gets to get back in the game, whereas in 66 Charlton is at Beckenberg for 120 minutes, and that's what changes the game in our favour. Whereas it changes the game of the Germans for favour four years later. But then that's the mad thing, is that that, as you say, it's somewhat the first golden generation of England, and then after that kind of after they still start retiring and start lose the international stage, we do. We're cracking them. And funnily enough, we don't get back onto the international stage after that for ten years, and it's and we're not a hammer again, Ron Greenwood gets us to the eighties euros. Uh-huh, uh-huh. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

So now that we've gone through all that, how what percentage of that was was West Ham, what percentage of that was uh everything else?

SPEAKER_02 42:15

I'd say a fair amount of it's West Ham, you know, there's a lot of West Ham influences there, but I think it was bigger than the sum of all its parts, you know. I think West Ham played obviously an important role, but it wasn't the deciding factor. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Well I think yeah, I think you're right, obviously. It's it's maybe a bit I was maybe being a bit oversimplic there, but it's good to sort of scrutinise these things a wee bit, isn't it? And I think you know, Charlton and Ball obviously played out their skins that day, and there's a very clear West Ham influence in terms of some of the some of the moving and passment and passing, sorry, and that sort of synergy and that that Peters and Moore and Hearst had between each other and and and and knowing the moves that they were going to make. So, yeah, that's maybe you know the most defensible claim, I guess you could say, about that, and and the kind of the coaching philosophy and and and Ron Greenwood's influence on the on the team as well. So yeah, I think there's um a strong argument to be had, but uh we should probably take it with a with a pinch of salt as well.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

I think you're 100% right there as well, and I think yeah, I think I think West Ham influence, but some of all its parts helped England win. Do you think is now talking about going to the modern day, do you th I mean we can maybe pick up on this a bit later, just a quick yes or no, do you think England can have a good chance of winning the World Cup this year? Yes. I'm saying no. You don't think they've got a good chance? No, and we'll get into this later when we actually talk about this year's World Cup and about Okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Well, I think we're there. I think we could I think we we we have permission to to let's move on from our nineteen sixty six chat, Max, and move on to some of the current hammers at the World Cup. We've got five five hammers out there. Let's start with a firm fan favourite Thomas Salchek with uh Chechia, Chuck Republic to You and I. Perhaps the most experienced player in the in the Czech squad. First Czech men's World Cup since Germany two thousand and six when they had Adam Nedved and Peter Czech, Thomas Rosiski, that was a good generation of players. How obviously not a great start for for old Tommy.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

No, that was I thought I think it was unfair his goal disallowed, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

I did see it disallowed, I can't actually remember. Was it it was offside, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I think so, honestly, mate. I've been kind of half asleep when I've been watching some of these games.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Yeah, yeah. I did I did feel for him after he pulled out the helicopter celebration.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Yeah, I don't know. That's the part of V AR I don't like is that if you're gonna disallow disallow it straight away, don't let him celebrate and then decide to pull it back.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

I feel like, you know, he's such a lovely bloke as well. There's nothing worse than seeing a a sad Thomas Salchek.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Yeah, yeah.

unknown 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

You know what I hope someone gave us a potato salad.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

I really hope someone gave some potato salad to cheer him up. Yes, exactly. Yeah, potato salad in that heat would be fantastic. Just a nice sort of calm. It was perfect to go with barbecue, isn't it? So they obviously lost their first game against South Korea. They've got South Africa next, and then Mexico, when Saoczek and Alvarez will face off. So let's let's head over to see how Edson Alvarez is getting on. Any um uh did you watch this one? Oh, I didn't actually.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

Oh, I had the Mexico game on Thursday.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

Thursday on the open up.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Do you know what? I actually caught most of it, but I was in the pub and then had to leave because I had to go home because I didn't know we start the following morning. So I actually didn't see any of Alvarez playing. But I did watch the Mexico game. I thought the Mexicans were quite good.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How about them Mexicans, eh? Free G is another Mexicans. Hip hip.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Shut up!

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Shut up. A lovely little Mike Bassett reference there. So he's it's slightly complicated, this one, isn't it? Because I always thought he was a an okay player. I thought he was maybe uh being played out of position quite a lot. He's he's West Ham signed him for 33 million on a five-year deal, only two years into it, I think. Obviously, now in the championship. Rumours that he would like to leave. He's on around uh a hundred grand a week. So, you know, what what do you think's what does the future look like for Edson Alvarez and West Ham?

SPEAKER_02 46:16

I think Nuno could maybe get a tune out of him, but I just think he'd want him. Or do you think he would see him as one of these players he could perhaps free up for cash? Yeah, but yeah, I think more that more likely the latter. But I think something I don't know why I think there's something maybe there with Alvarez and Nuno. Yeah because I think Nuno likes someone who's quite robust and can kick shit out of people in the middle of the park. I mean he had it with Sangare and Anderson, didn't he at Forrest? So Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the difference between Sangare, Anderson, and Alvarez is that Anderson and Sangare can actually play football. Alvarez just kicks people up in the air.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

Alvarez, he looks, he looked a little off the pace, didn't he? But again, I I do wonder if you know Lopateggi was using an assist that didn't necessarily suit him. So I said two years, I think he's three years into that five-year deal, now I think about it.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

But yeah, he spent last season on loan at Fedebachce, so he hasn't played much competitive football since around December. So we'll see, we'll see. It'll be interesting to see. If he has a good World Cup, maybe his price tag will go up if they do want to part with him. They've obviously won their first game, so they're likely to progress. We'll see how that that plays out. Cricensio Somerville scored a lovely goal last night with his left foot. Where did that come from? I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Yeah, and he played on the right wing, which was actually quite interesting to see.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

Yeah, I was sort of I was surprised by that as well, because I was thinking, were they kind of using him as a sort of an old school right winger that could go down the go down the outside and cross the air? Yeah, no, he sort of cut him with his left and then I thought I didn't know he could do that.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Neither did I. Neither did I, you know, and you're saying about Alfred's getting a bit of money after a World Cup, I think Somerville might be the one who goes for good many.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

Yes. Well I saw PSG were rumoured to be interested, so not like they need any more attacking flair, but yeah, and Fernandez as well.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

I've seen they've been interested in PSG. Yeah, yeah. And I honestly think Fernandez, if he plays under Louis Enrique, could be become one of the world's best midfielders. I think purely for the because Louis Enrique, you know, Wardslap is very similar stamped to you know Fernandez, you know, box to box, hard tackling, just passionate, just can create stuff, can defend, you know. I think you know, you're sticking with either Michael Carrick at United, which has been rumoured, or you're sticking with Enrique at Piers G, and I think Fernandez will thrive. As for Somerville, I think Piers G would be a great move for him because the it's if have I had it right, Barcola's going to Arsenal. Who's going to Arsenal, sorry? Uh Bradley Barcola.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Buckley, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

When when you said Michael Carrick at Manchester United, I thought he's a bit old to be playing, isn't he? I don't know if he had to if he'd be if he'd slot in alongside. I was thinking about Owen Hargreaves in the uh the World Cup in 2020 again, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Yeah, the greatest Canadian player.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

Yeah, to never play for Canada. I I I rem yeah, we could we go down a rabbit hole with Owen Hargreaves, but I thought he was um he was uh really good, but I remember being one of those fans being like, Why the bloody hell is Owen Hargreaves getting a game uh anyway? So that leaves two two African fullbacks. So Alhaji Malik Ju for Senegal, they've not yet played. Their opening game is against France, although by the time this goes out, they will have played. That'll be an interesting one. Obviously, that's a repeat of the 2002 World Cup opener, wasn't it, when Senegal got a shock. Another former hammer, Papa Duba Diop, with the goal, the wardrobe. So it'd be good to see how he gets on. He's also one that has been rumoured maybe for sale. Um so again, another good World Cup might inflate his price tag. I'd personally quite like to see him stay. I think he was one of our better players this season.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

I think I think that he does defensively need to work on his game though, Truth. Yeah, I mean it's game is maybe yeah, questionable, isn't it? But maybe if Somerville goes, you move Drew up into um left wing.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Maybe. Maybe. I mean he's got a fantastic delivery on him, hasn't he?

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Yeah. Yeah, or play him at left wing back. I think that's probably where he thrives at left wing back rather than left back. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:08

And that leaves uh the final hammer at the World Cup we haven't discussed, Aaron Wan Basaka, who bit hit and miss. I I'm a big Aaron Wan Basaka fan. I thought he was I was personally very confused when he wasn't utilised as much towards the end of the season, and then I heard some sort of things about perhaps a bit of his attitude. Obviously, he came back from the African Cup of Nations a bit late, sort of fell out of favour with Nuna, I think. But yeah, they've got a bit of a tough group. They've got Portugal. Again, that would have happened by the time this goes out, but I got Portugal in the sweepstakes, so I'm kind of hoping they do well. Columbia. Germany in mine. Oh well, yeah, you've done very well then. You've done well with Portugal, mate. Yeah. And Uzbekistan. So maybe you know, Uzbekistan they could they could get a result, who knows? But it'd be great to see DR Congo, Dr. Congo at the World Cup. They're very exciting, I think. So yeah, again, he could he he might be able to put some value on his price. Dagger third Everton might be might be rumoured in him. So so there we go. So a few players at the World Cup would be interesting to see how each of them gets on. Obviously, there's some notable former hammers at the World Cup as well. We've got Declan Rice. It's a Diop from Morocco, although was confusingly previously with Senegal. So an African Cup of Nations winner either way. En a Valencia, Max. Ena Valencia. Lovely. Just evergreen, isn't he?

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Yeah, man, that guy never that guy never stops. Yeah. I mean, do you remember that? I mean, everyone's just going to talk about the whole goal, aren't they? Yeah. Yeah, that's why I remember. She said to me before we started recording, do you remember the yeah, no backlist just to bury that from 30 yard shards? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 51:46

Although I seem to remember him scoring a free kick against the game. He did against Bournemouth, yeah. Yeah, in that game Payette came back. I'm pretty sure Payette also scored a free kick in there.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

He did. He did.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

Two free kicks in one game is unfurtherm's for West Ham, surely.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Yeah, but I think Deck uh we've mentioned a few names there. I think Declan is going to be an important part for England. I mean, I think Declan's been probably England's best midfielder for a few years now. Yeah. I'd say yeah, I think he's got better at Arsenal, but I still maintain he should have gone to C.

SPEAKER_03 52:18

Well, the amount of Arsenal fans that sort of say to me that they think £105 million was a steal. Yeah. I think you know it's one of those things where West Ham fans say he's brilliant and they're kind of like, yeah, but is he really and then actually he goes and plays for your team and you're like, oh god, no, actually this guy is the real deal. Yeah, I suppose there is an argument. Again, again, this could be a bit of England hyperbole, but there's an argument he's possibly the best midfielder in the world.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Oh I'd say I wouldn't say he's the best midfielder in the world. I think if you played him in the I think if you played him at defensive mid and let him just be a sweeper, he would have been the best midfielder in the world.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Mm, interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

I think the box to box thing limits him a little bit, because he's good. Yeah. But I don't think he'll I think his sweeper role he was just so much better when you played for West Ham. And when you play for England, kind of letting in twenty especially in the Euros in 2021, you know, him dropping back and letting Calvin Phillips ball forward and have a form of hammer there. That was actually the better way to do it. But yeah, I think Declan's better if you if he sits back and kind of plays deeper, a bit like a Busquets or a Rodery or one of those, not actually bombing into the box. I mean, the one thing I have to give Arteta credit for is he somehow brought out a set piece delivery in this guy that I'd ni I didn't even know he had in him. No, no.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

I wonder if Moisey would have signed uh Ward Prowse if he'd known, but of course he he used the money, that's a silly thing to say, because they weren't there at the same time. But you you see my point. Yeah. Okay, so two other hammers, Lucas Paqueta with Brazil. Saw something on Reddit saying Paqueta giving the ball away at every opportunity, never change, man.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Yeah, same with East of Diop as well. Did you see that terrible back pass aga against Brazil? Yeah, you can take you can take West Ham out a boy, can't you? Yeah, but you can't. No, sorry, you could take a boy out of West Ham out of the way. Yeah. Yeah, it's very much Easter Diop, innit? You know, do you know what? That's the sad part about East of Diop. He could have been something really special, and I don't know what went wrong with him there.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:15

He's still playing for Fulham as well, isn't he? So he's got something about him. And then another guy, a bit like Enna Valencia, still there. Mark Arnaltovich.

SPEAKER_02 54:25

Yeah. What a madman.

unknown 54:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

The lunatic inning Mark Arnaltovich.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

Yeah. Well I mean he was a he was a great player, but obviously slightly uh Unhinged.

SPEAKER_02 54:35

Yeah. It's a diplomatic term you'd say.

SPEAKER_03 54:37

Yeah, perhaps, yeah. So it'd be interesting to see how they get on. Still going, still going. And then two former two former managers as well, obviously our two previous managers, Hulan Lopateggi, with Qatar, and picked up a point against Switzerland in their opening game, which was their first ever point in a World Cup. So I was quite pleased to see him because I I've always thought he was okay. I know he came in for a lot of stick. I know I've shared this before. I don't think West Ham would be in any worse position than they are right now if they'd kept him last season. I think you know he tried to introduce a more different style of play, which takes time, you know. But yeah, you maybe tried to change too much too early, it kind of fell apart. And then Graham.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

I'll never forgive Gurion Locategie for inflicting Max Killman on us, so you know.

SPEAKER_03 55:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

Yeah. I do have an irrational hatred of Max Killman, to be fair. So well, yeah, I feel f I I I feel for Max Killman, but I I want to I want to feel for Max Killman and then he defends and then I don't feel for Max Killman. Well he doesn't defend anymore because he doesn't get on the pitch anymore. And that's and do you know what? If you ever realised that actually coincided with our turn in form. Yeah as much as I I I don't mean to shit on Max Killman, but in the same respect I think he'll be gone this summer and I was very sad that he doesn't get his own. He just hasn't pr he just hasn't reached the levels he was at Wolf's.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

You know? No, I totally agree. I think it would be hard to argue that he's been a success by many metrics, but I also think he never asked for that price tag, which I think is held against him quite a lot. And never nice to be booing your own player, and I think I just really felt for him. I was like, that's that's not that's not gonna help his confidence in any way, is it? So I don't know who that's helping in that situation. But let's talk about Graham Potter. He he's landed on his feet after a bit of a disaster spell, so he took over Sweden who hadn't qualified for the World Cup and helped them qualify through the Nation League playoffs. So yeah, he's done all right there.

SPEAKER_02 56:39

Yeah, is Graham Potter, the English Roberto Martinez, not particularly great, but somehow keeps falling upwards.

SPEAKER_03 56:47

Oh good question. I mean Roberto Martinez did win the FA Cup.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Yeah, but let's be fair, that was like it's one of those rare times where the Wigan actually decided to get their form together in the FA Cup rather than the league, like they always used to.

SPEAKER_03 57:04

Yes, they did get relegated that season as well, didn't they?

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:07

Yeah, I mean I thought he did alright. I mean, uh yeah, he's not pulled up any trees since then, has he? Where was he? Everton and Belgium, wasn't he? So I don't think he's pulled up any trees since then.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

But yeah, but let's be fair, Potter didn't really do anything with that Sweden team. He did take over somebody else's team, and he's kind of rode the coattails of Sweden being a half decent team with, you know, Isak and a lot of good decent teams.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

But they ha I mean they hadn't qualified, to be fair, and now they have qualified and they've they've won fairly I I don't know. Again, I kinda kind of feel like I wonder if there was something there that we maybe just didn't get a chance to see, although I do think he was maybe a bit hasty with the way some of the senior players were treated and kind of the atmosphere. I mean that probably didn't help to uh the situation Nuno inherited, but yeah, I think they probably will I think if we have a look at the ownership structure at the club, it's all been a bit of a yeah disaster, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 57:58

I think um funnily enough, we I was talking about this at the conference this weekend, and I believe that if you had Kutinsky in charge, like it it looks like he's going to become in charge now. Yeah I'm sure there's still news over the weekend that he's gonna buy he's gonna become the largest shareholder. I think if you put Potter in ch had uh put Potter in charge with Kutinsky as his owner backing it properly, maybe he'd have been a better manager. Yeah because I think Potter's one of those, he's a project manager, you've got to give him a few years to get your shit together. And then that because that's what happened at Brighton, right? Brighton have benefited from Potter's few years of struggling and trying to create an intensity in the league. And now that's now you know they've really benefited after um de Zerby and now Hurl is it Herzlheiser, if I pronounced that right, or have they got Fabian Herzer. Thank you. Yeah, I'm I'm the one having a mayor today, not you. But I was gonna say, yeah, I think Potter's one of those that he's a good project manager. And I mean De Zerby and um Fabian Herzler have um massively benefited you know from having a structure that Potter suffered, you know, in those first three or four years in the Prem after he took over from Hugh and so yeah, maybe you know, with Gotinski in charge, he may have been a better may have been better, maybe who knows? And a little hypothetical now, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

Yes, exactly. It's the what-ifs. Yeah, yeah. So let's that's that's the hammers at this year's World Cup and former Hammers. Let's have a look at some of the the the other West Ham players and years gone by, and Max and I are gonna pick our all-time 11, West Ham World Cup 11s. But here's an interesting one for you though. So, all time England World Cup squads by club, where do you think West Ham come on the list? And this is from 1950 to this year's World Cup. So 1950 to 2026. How many West Ham players do you think have been in the England squad and where do you think they would rank compared to other clubs?

SPEAKER_02 59:54

Well, I know there's nine that we mentioned at the beginning of the um podcast of who has actually won a World Cup. Yep. This is the England squad, sorry. Oh, England? Oh I don't know, I'd say about somewhere between 15 and 20. Because you're because there's players we didn't mention like um Terrence Sinclair, Trevor Brooken, David James, Joe Cole. Yep, you know, all great players who never won the World Cup but did play for England at the World Cup when they were with the club.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:25

Absolutely, so you were you were bang on, it was 16, so 16 West Ham players at the time of selection, so they are joint seventh in the list. So Manchester United have had 45 players called up for World Cup squads, Spurs 39, slightly surprising, I think. Liverpool 34, Arsenal 27, Chelsea 26, Manchester City 22, Everton 16, Newcastle 16, and West Ham 16, so joint seventh with Newcastle and Everton for players collected. Selected, sorry. And and of London clubs, they are the fourth, so behind Spurs, Arsenal in Chelsea with 16, and for Fulham in fifth in London clubs with six.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:05

I was going to ask, in terms of the London clubs, how did we rank? But I gathered we'd be like fourth normally after the other after the other three. But no sixteen's pretty impressive when you think about it for England alone. Yeah. You know, because as we were saying, you know, all the former hammers as well, we must have a pretty decent global footprint, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

Absolutely. If you think about the play, the international players outside of England that have been selected, you know, we've we've perhaps come on to some of these players, but Ludo McClosco, Slavonics. Yes. Mark Reaper, you mentioned Bernard Lama, Rio Ferdinand, Jay Cole, Ena Valencia, Kiate, Paqueta, etc. So, yeah, some great players that have represented a club and their their nations on the international stage. Which brings us nicely, I think, to our World Cup 11s. So these are players that not necessarily were in World Cup squads at the time they were playing for West Ham, but have either represented the West Ham and their nation at some point and and featured in a World Cup. Now I've been slightly loose here because I've included one player that was certainly a manager, and I don't know if they were a player, but certainly a manager of World Cup. So I'm gonna I'm gonna start off and I'm hoping that we have two different elevens so we can talk about uh different players here. But if you don't mind, as is uh my privilege, I'm gonna I'm gonna go first and start off with Shaka Hislop, who represented Trinidad and Tobago in 2006. And what I love about this was he was slightly at the older end of the spectrum at the time. But if you can remember this far back, and obviously we covered it on the pod a few weeks ago, Liverpool West Ham 3-3 FA Cup final. Stephen Gerard scored that screamer against Shaka Hislop in the dying minutes of the match. Guess what? He goes and replicates it in the World Cup a few weeks later with a with a left-footed belter from outside the box against poor old Shadow. He must be sick sick to death of Stephen Gerrard.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

Yeah, and just sick to death for Liverpool, because don't Peter Crouch score the second goal and that England win. Correct. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

Actually, I think he scores the first one as Gerard's the second one, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Yeah. Oh, by the way, if you've seen the new Paddy Power advert that they're doing, it's Rob Lowe and Danny Dyer. I have, with talking about hammers. It's just great, they're they're doing the chance and it's yeah, and then they're just all on the couch going, he's big, he's red, his feet stick out the bed, Peter Crowd. And that just there's a part of me that when I I teach American students, part of me is really tempted to show them that ad because I think it's just the perfect distinctions between us and um yeah, us and them.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:34

But who would you have in goal?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:35

Max or I thought we'd go for Shaker as well. Yeah? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:39

You always loved throwing up Bernard Lama, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:41

Oh fucking Bernard Lama. You know, never played in a World Cup. He was the sub obviously to Fabian Baltez in France Nightier. But he was playing with the club at the time, which is the most bizarre thing in the world that he wasn't even our first choice, was he? No, was it was it Craig Forrest during that season? It w it would have been his lot, wouldn't it? No, I don't think I don't think Shaka joins till after the after the World Cup. Oh, interesting. Okay. I think it might have been it was Craig Forrest then or McClosco. Yeah, I think it would have been one of those two, but now I think we signed Bernard Lama because Forrest he always used to get injured.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:20

Well he was another World Cup goalie, Craig Forrest, so you could have you could have had him.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

What tournament did Craig Forest play in?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

Oh I'm have I made that up? I'm sure he played for England at a World Cup. No, he couldn't play.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

Yeah, we're gonna have to google this now, aren't we? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:39

Obviously you could have had Rob Green.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

Of course. I know I loved Rob Green, but I think you know, when you think of Rob Green in World Cups, it's not particularly a good memory.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

I know. I do feel for him because I remember he was recently talking about the fact that he wasn't notified he was playing until the day before and he would have really benefited from having that knowledge to I think mentally prepare himself. But yeah, of course, the the gold is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

And you know what people forget about that is yeah, the howler's obviously the thing people remember about Rob Green. In the second half, he absolutely pulls out a worldly save from um what is it, Landon Donovan or Clint Dempsey when they burst through again and it they try to attack it in the near post and sneak it in, and Green essentially gets up and pushes it round the post. Okay, I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:22

I don't remember that, but uh yeah, it's a lovely save.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

And I think Jeremy Carrigan mentioned it recently, actually, when they were talking about the howler that you know a lot of people forget that, and I know I've one of those I did remember it because that's always my counter argument. People go, Oh, you know, Rob Greener was shit and you let him know how yeah, but you forget about the great stake made in the second half. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

Okay, so both got his flopping goal. Scoloni at right back. Now I included him because I'm pretty sure he played in two thousand and six, but he also obviously managed Argentina to the World Cup win in twenty twenty two. Again, another player I feel sorry for, and even when we had Pete on last week. He was talking about Scalone not not belting out down the line but just clearing it to Gerard. So I really feel like I am in this minority on this narrative.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

No, I think you're probably right there. I think in terms of you know players who actually did well, it's either him or Arba Loa, right? And I know Arba Loa had a bit of a stinker and hater playing at West Ham, but I think Scaloni's probably the most successful player, a right back anyway, to have played for the club who then went on to the World Cup. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:30

The most decorated managerial CD of any former hammer, I think you could probably argue, given he's won the World Cup and the Copper America.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:38

Any others you can think of that would challenge him for that?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

No. I'm trying to think now, yeah. I'm racking my brains. Yeah, I can't think of anybody who, you know, who's got that kind of publicly high profile wins. Yeah. Who would you who would you have at right back? I think I'd have to agree with you there. Go with Leonardo Scalone.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Okay, okay. Yeah, I think I think centre back Bobby Moore got a hat, Bobby, representing three World Cups, 62, 66, and 70. Don't think we need much justification beyond that. That was basically the first half of the episode justifying why he was so good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then the other centre back, I I'm assuming you're also picking Bobby as one of your centre backs. Of course, of course. Yeah. And then the other one I've gone for, Winston Reed. That's a good shout.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

2010 World Cup? Yeah, New Zealand, yeah, they didn't lose a game, did they? And he was yeah, him and Ryan Nielsen at a century.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

Always a great quiz question for a pub quiz. Because although Spain won it, they lost their opening game, I think, against Switzerland. Whereas New Zealand didn't lose uh didn't lose a game. So they were the only unbeaten team. Yeah, but they drew all three, didn't they, and got knocked out because they didn't win a game.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

I think today, if they're in this expanded format, they'd they would have been alright. Yeah, they wouldn't have nicked nicked it in the end third, yeah, especially with 48 teams.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

Yeah, yeah. So I think they signed him from a Danish club, didn't they? But he went on to be a bit of a hammer's hero, obviously scored the last goal at Optum Park. So yeah, he was a bit of a club legend in the end, I think. Yeah. Any other contenders that you would think about having there at centre back?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

Oh. I'd go for Alvin Martin because he did play in the World Cup eighty-six. Nice. Nice Yeah, and I think you can't go wrong with Alvin Martin, he played for us for twenty years, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:25

Yeah, all-time legend stretch. So I think you kind of can't knock Alvin Martin. I mean I mean, obviously the Maradona goal, no one's stopping, you know, him dribbling fast everybody in the England team to score the second, but Yeah.

unknown 1:08:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:39

And Shilton's obviously to blame for the first. Yeah, yeah, obviously. I mean I mean how does I mean how does a six footer get beat get beat in the air by a five foot seven guy? I know he punched the ball in, but still.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:50

That's a controversial take. I'm not sure it's uh Do you know Peter Shilton was at West Ham for one season? I did know that, yeah, but he never played a game. I'm not surprised, you know everything. Left back, I've gone for Pablo Almiro, because although he wasn't at West Ham, he joined after the World Cup on the back of a good tournament, which was very much James Rodriguez's tournament of 2014. I don't think many people will remember Pablo Almiro. I think it was a Sam Allardy signing, wasn't he? But Columbia. Yeah, he reached the quarterfinals, which was their best ever World Cup performance at the point. Almiro scored. Sorry, started every game. They signed him um off the back of that, and he made just nine appearances. So I'm not sure it was a classic West Ham signing, but I think in terms of up in terms of my World Cup eleven, you know, someone that's impressed on the world stage that they've gone all that. He looks shiny and exciting. Let's um let's take a punt on him.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:43

That's fair enough.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

That's fair enough. Anyone else that could have been the left back?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

I'm trying to think, that's a bit of a struggle to think about that. There's a lot of players, you know, who have played for us. I'm trying to think of left backs who have gone to the World Cup for us. Can we play players who may have been a centre back at left back?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:05

Go for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

You can do what you want. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:16

I feel like you've done less for your for your team than me.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm gonna say I'm gonna go with Rio. You know, you may have yeah, Rio Ferdinand, you know, just purely for the fact of it's Rio Ferdinand. Because he did go on to have a great career, and I know left back's a bit of a strange position, but I can't think of anywhere else I'd slide him into the team.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:36

Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Centre midfield, I'm gonna start centre mid, and I'm choosing Vallon Barami, who was part of that Switzerland team that beat Spain in the open in the uh in the 2010 World Cup. So one of the sort of tournament's great upsets. Key part of that midfield. He was brilliant. I loved Vallon Barrami. I was very disappointed. Yeah, but I always thought his legs were sort of like elastic, a bit like Aaron Wan Basaka had his long legs, he would just sort of like, I don't know, he was just irrepressible. He just never never run out of energy. He would always be there. He was definitely one of our better players in a pretty underwhelming team, I think. Yeah, he was perhaps like blonde hair and black beard. What a guy. Yeah, yeah. So he was with Switzerland at 2010. My other centre mid, Martin Peters, I know he doesn't really play centre mid, but I'm taking him.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:25

Fair enough, I'd go with it. I'd go actually for my left minute to be a contentious one is Prink Land Power Jr.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:32

Ooh, like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:33

Yep, yeah, like it. And I would probably go for Martin Peters, you know, in the um middle as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:40

You can't have a World Cup team without Peters, really.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

Well, no, and I suppose I could have picked, because my my right mid is Joe Cole, who was with England 2002 and 2006. So in theory, maybe he could have played centre mid and Peters could have played on the right. But yeah, came on in various games 2002, 2006. He obviously scores that absolute beauty against Sweden that sort of like touched it down, volleys it from miles outside the box. So he was one of sort of definitely one of the I think I think at some point we will do an episode on Joe Cole, and he's recently brought out his autobiography, and maybe we'll do a bit of a deep dive into um Joe Cole. He's a bit of a hammers hero, isn't he?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:16

Well, I'm playing a 4-3-3 on this.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

So Peters and Labenpower are going to be my um centre mids, but defensive men I'm gonna play Declan Russ.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:27

Okay, fair. Fair. I think that's uh that's a nice shout. Left mid, I'm going 4-4-2, so my left mid is going to be Trevor Sinclair, who felt like the answer to England's left sided problem for such a long time, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:39

Yeah, he did. And then Jerry Cole, who is funnily enough, my left mid was the answer. We we've never been able to figure out that left mid problem. It's always been one thing that's been an issue. Where Stuart Downing, who was a natural left footer, yeah, we just went through years of trying to figure out that problem, and then we've got Raheem Sterling, who actually solved the problem. But that was only when it became fashionable to start playing right footed players on the left, wasn't it? That's when it actually works, yeah, even though we've been doing it for years and it just yeah, pull scales out there for years.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. And then up front, I've got uh Chikorito for Mexico. 2010, 2014, 2018, Mexico's all-time leading goal scorer scored at all three of the World Cups he went on to play for them at. He I thought he did alright at West Ham. He scored quite a lot of goals. He never it felt like he never really started, but he scored quite a few goals. He was sort of a natural instinctive finisher, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:33

Yeah, I think you needed someone else with him up front though, because we kept playing on the top on his own, it just didn't work.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:39

Yeah, yeah. And actually, he would have been brilliant alongside my other striker, who, again, a bit of a cheat here, because although he played West Ham wasn't at the time of the World Cup, Paulo One Chop. And he went off to manage Costa Rica. Now, can you imagine Paulo One Chop and Chicarito up front?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:54

That'd actually be quite great, actually. Didn't Paolo One Chop get sacked because he fought with a fang?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:59

Yeah, he yeah, it was slightly controversial. I'm sure he got into a Barney with one of the fans in the stands, didn't he? And uh yeah, but I remember the last World Cup he was manager. So yeah, he's represented both country uh sorry, country as both player and manager. But yeah, he was positive. Yeah, he was one of those players again who sort of got got traded in Harry's sort of wheeling and dealing, which he didn't like the the phrase, did he? But he was a great player. No.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:24

On my right wing though, because I'm going 4-3-3, so I've got Jerry Carr at left wing. Yeah. And going Trevor Brooking at right wing. Like it. Makes sense. Yeah. It makes sense, you know. You can be like just kind of drifting from the right wing, cause trouble, play through the middle if needed, you know. Yeah. You know, and up front, I'm going with Jeff Earst, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:43

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown 1:14:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:46

Well, that's one shop on the actually said. I'd have one shot on my bench and bring him off the bench. I mean Hernandez, you know, if I need to switch to a 4-4-2, you know, I could have them on my bench as my two strikers in a squad. Impact sub. Yeah. I think I'd bring Hernandez on as the impact sub before I needed if it was a horrible hard team, you know, who were going to kick Lunch out of you. You bring on Parlo One Shot.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:06

Yeah, I think a few people will be shouting as to why I haven't included Hurst in my eleven, and I think that would be a good question. And I think to be honest, I forgot about him. Even though we spent half an hour at the start of the episode talking about him. So that was fun. I enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:20

Yeah, and we've got a lot of honourable mentions because we did go through a whole long list, didn't we? That you've missed we've got Carlos Teves, Javier Mascarano. Yep. Slavin Bilich. Slavinbillich. Eagle Stimich, was he in that night creation? Davosuka. Davosuka. They would have been a great striker, wouldn't he, up front? Golden boot winner. I got one for you, Paolo Futra. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you reckon John Monker ever got his trip out there after giving Paolo Futra the number 10 shirt?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:50

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question. That's a good question. I mean Ian Wright, I don't know if he did he actually ever go to a World Cup, Ian Wright.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:57

Right, you know, he never did, believe it or not. I think Ferdinand went with England, didn't he, at one point? Yes, Ferdinand was a ninety eight, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:08

Gosh screen.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:13

Well that was that was fun. So I think when in in short, we can claim that we've had quite a good eleven players that have represented the club and played at a World Cup. I don't think there's any sort of huge ones we're we're missing there. But uh yeah, that was that was good fun. And I think that's pretty much it for this week's episode, isn't it, Max?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:32

Yeah. Yeah, I think it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:34

We've done our trivia question for the week, so anything you want to mention? No. Let me let me do that again.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:43

Yeah, go on. I was trying to think, is there any we talked about England and the World Cup, didn't we? Yeah. Okay, I've got what I've got one question then for you. Right, just to round up, Andrew, I do have one question. It's not a trivia question, it's just an opinion question. Who do you ever think is gonna who do you think is gonna win the World Cup?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:00

I don't know. Where's Paul the Octopus? We need to get Paul the Octopus back to be able to help us like do you remember Paul the Octopus?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:06

Yeah, Meg, I don't know to tell you this, he died. Oh, did you see that coming? Yay.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:16

I don't know. I mean, I always feel like there's you there's always the fa you know, you're always gonna get England in that discussion, aren't you? There's France, Spain, you know, maybe someone like Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina. You now now Scotland have got a win, who knows? But I don't I don't know, to be completely honest. I've got, as I say, I've got Portugal in the sweepstakes. Let's uh let's see how they get on. Yeah, I've got Germany in mind, but I think Spain is gonna win it. Yeah, that'd be hard to look beyond them given given the quality. I don't know if Argentina will do quite as well as they did last time. Who knows? It's gonna be fun though, isn't it? I mean, uh how are you finding it with the the kind of uh one thing I am slightly struggling with is you know, sometimes there's a six o'clock kickoff, sometimes it's not till eight, sometimes it's nine. You know, in previous tournaments it's been very set, you know, it'll be one at twelve, there'll be one at three, there'll be one at six, you know. Whereas this is it kind of changes depending on where it is. I suppose that's the problem with having it in such a large few countries. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:18

Yeah, I think that's the thing I agree with as well, actually. Yeah, but I'm looking forward to the fact there's a five o'clock kickoff today because this is the first five o'clock. It is the first oh yesterday was the first five o'clock kickoff.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:28

No, yesterday was the six o'clock.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:29

Ah. So this will be the first five o'clock, I think. Yeah. Oh, I slept through the six o'clock kickoff yesterday, Matt, won't I?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

That was your team. Germany, Germany Curacle.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:38

I know, and then watch the highlights.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:40

7-1. Jesus, what a result. I know, I know. Well, we will obviously be keeping an eye on how things go and see how our hammers get on at the World Cup. But that is it for this week. Thank you very much for for listening to that. That's probably a bit of a mammoth episode, but I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did putting it together and recording it. And uh, should we would it be okay to sign off with Come on England or or is it Come on Your Hammers? Why not do both?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

One of us do come on England, one of us do come on your Come on UI.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:12

Come on, England. You can get in touch with this code by emailing the webcam or email.com at email.comed.