At the Intersection: Insights for Thriving at the Crossroads of Change

Designing Adaptive Organizations for the Human–AI Era

• Craig Francisco

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If you’ve felt the ground shifting under your feet, you’re not imagining it—the rules of building and leading organizations are changing in real time. In this episode, we sit down with strategist and organizational architect Erica Ishida and human performance coach Ellen Palmer to explore what it takes to design truly adaptive organizations—where humans and AI collaborate to unlock dormant potential.

We trade top-down hierarchy for living networks, and the obsession with efficiency for efficacy—solving real problems, discovering new opportunities, and measuring value beyond tasks. Erica breaks down the grounding principles that replace the myth of a universal roadmap: build radical trust, design for bi-directional learning, redefine value as potential realized, and treat AI as adaptive intelligence—a partner in navigating messy systems.

Ellen brings the human foundation into sharp focus: regulated nervous systems, quality sleep, presence, and healthy device boundaries aren’t indulgences—they’re the infrastructure for better decisions, clearer thinking, and sustainable performance.

Together, we explore the hard truth about leaders who refuse to evolve (irrelevance is inevitable) and why magnetic cultures attract top talent by honoring creativity, calm, and contribution. You’ll also hear candid personal stories: Ellen’s forced slowdown after injury that clarified her priorities, and Erica’s courageous pivot from corporate executive to founder, guided by love, trust, and inner wisdom.

Walk away with practical starting points—set a new commitment, protect restorative rituals, reorient around trust and learning, and partner deeply with AI—so you can shift from survival to potential and build teams that are both humane and high-performing.

If this conversation sparks a rethink, share it with a leader who needs it, hit Follow to catch future episodes, and leave a review with the principle you’ll adopt first.

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to At the Intersection Podcast. I am thrilled to be joined by two of my true favorite humans in the world, Ellen Palmer and Erica Shita. And this is going to be a lot of fun, ladies, because we're going to focus on a theme, you know, really one theme that I would like to hone in, which is adaptive organizations and what it's going to take for the future of kind of the human and AI and how it's going to work together in a partnership. And before, just to give every the listeners just a little background, Erica Ashida is a world-class strategist, you know, organizational architect who spent her career helping executive teams navigate transformation. Erica's known for designing cultures that actually scale, where trust, clarity, purpose drive performance. So Erica is the kind of leader who helps companies not just change but evolve. So that's a critical part of this. And then alongside Erica is Ellen Palmer. Ellen is a human performance expert, coach, and wellness strategist who teaches leaders how to align their energy, mindset, and health with their mission. And Ellen's work sits right at that intersection of leadership and well-being, helping people build the resilience and awareness that adaptability demands. So, ladies, welcome to the show. Excited to have you.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. It's so good to be here. Excited to be here. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_00:

No, you're absolutely welcome. So we're going to make this very conversational. Both of you are experts in your own right. And I really believe that we are in for just a major, major shift. Um, one I like to this is this is the comment that I read I want to read to you guys. It's like we're living in a time where adaptability isn't a competitive advantage, it's survival. And when I read that and just kind of let that sink in a little bit, it's it's truly powerful because I I believe, and I know you guys do as well, that we are living in a time where things are gonna change so fast and it's gonna be really hard, I think, for organizations that aren't aligned, you know, culturally and aren't ready for what's coming. I think it's gonna be difficult for them. So just to kind of kick it off, I'll ask each of you a question if that's okay. And and Eric, I'll start with you. You know, how do adaptive organizations differ in structure and mindset, in your opinion, expert opinion?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it the if it's fundament an adaptive organization is fundamentally different from organizations that I think all of us have um grown up with and been a part of. So um some of the key differences are, you know, in a traditional organization, hierarchy is typically a part of the organization in one way, shape, or form to establish some you know, discipline, rules of engagement, how things get done. In an adaptive organization, it's more of a network environment. Um, so instead of organizing around hierarchy, power, and um sort of a top-down approach, it's more of a uh networked organization designed for fluidity and adaptation and radical collaboration around a whole different way of value, a whole different way of understanding value creation. So to understand why the adaptive organization is structured differently, you have to understand that in this new era that we're that we're embarking into here, which we'll call it the potential era instead of say the industrial era or era or the digital era, um, it's all about unlocking dormant human potential, individual and collective. And so organizations are gonna have to reorient themselves from like different everything, different structures, different ways of measuring value, different ways of defining value. And value creation is gonna look different. It's not gonna be oriented around completing tasks for people, it will be oriented around identifying real problems or new opportunities that haven't even been discovered, and then organizing themselves around that problem or opportunity and working with um AI in an intimate partnership to solve those problems. So if we're shifting from sort of um an efficiency model to an efficacy model from tasks to true value creation, we have to reorganize the humans in the organization to work in that way.

SPEAKER_00:

That's awesome. I mean, I love your perspective there. It's just such a as when I hear that, and you know, I think of myself and the roles I've been in and the companies and the just the typical structure that I've worked with in my entire career. What you're saying there, it's just that is just a massive shift. And I I don't believe companies are ready for that today. I mean, like I I'm not sure people are there. What what's what's your opinion on that?

SPEAKER_02:

Me again?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um it's a big shift, right? I mean, what you just laid out is is huge.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, this is a this is a it's gonna be a good segue, I think, for Ellen to chime in. I think executives readiness, so every organization will be different depending on the the readiness of the leaders that are at the helm. Um and individual readiness for those leaders will come down to again, where are they at in their individual awakening or their individual um level of awareness of their own potential and the and human potential, and where they are at in their journey will directly impact their organization's ability to pivot to this adaptive model. Alan? Thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00:

What do you think, Alan?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. The best thing that leaders can do for their organizations is to pause and get like unstoppably present, like really just doing the work, body, mind, and spirit, to be present and to calm their nervous system. So life is all about relationship. We're in relationship with everything. We're in relationship with our people, of course. We're in relationship with ourselves, we're in relationship with our computers and our phones. And if we if our nervous system is on high alert, firing all the time without any grounding, that that relationship is having a relationship with someone else's nervous system. And so it all is about being present and learning how to take care of ourselves in a really different way, where we are grounded, we are mindful. These aren't just budward buzzwords. We really need to come into our own alignment and do the work. And it actually starts with the absolute basics that we can take for granted. For example, sleep. When I'm working with an executive and they're really struggling with energy, we back it up. Like, what has the night's sleep been the night before? And do they have good sleep rituals that allow them to get the most restorative uh sleep where their body and mind have had a chance to repair? So cognitively they're clear. And then how they start their day, most folks are handing over their energy, their joy to small devices, right? So whether it's an iPhone, an iPad, um, any of the broadcast channels, um, the news stations, immediately it's just handed over. So they haven't taken any time to really be present with self and understand how they want the day to go. How do they want the flow to go? How do they want to feel throughout the day? They're just getting in and solving problems. Where we're going in the potential era, it's not about problem solving, right? When we partner truly with AI, problems are going to be solved. What we're gonna need people to do is to be really mindful of their condition so they can make even more discerning decisions, that they can keep up with the speed with which things are evolving. And so there's so much to be said on this topic, but really what we're heading into is sort of the era of being, you know, are we paying attention to our being? And how is that impacting and influencing everyone around us? Because leadership is a position of influence, not just in the boardroom or with our teams. It's everywhere we go, we're in a position to influence others. What condition are we doing that from?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, that's that's beautifully well said. It and so, really, I think both of you, when I when I try to unpack what you've said, it it's it has to start with the leaders of the organization. Uh, they have to lead the way and help their teams and their you know, the employees within that business really feel like you know, everything's gonna be okay, staying centered because the change is so rapid, right? Everything that we're all experiencing, whether it's at home or work or in the news, and you know, it's AI this, AI that things are changing really fast. So the leaders have to, it's gotta start there. What would you both say if you know both are coaches, obviously, exceptional coaches, working with with the executives and large, large businesses. If I am an executive and I say, you know, to to both of you, what do I do? Like, where do I start? Just curious, both of you feel feed up for feel free to chime in. I'd love to know how you would answer that question.

SPEAKER_01:

I really think an outstanding starting place is to understand what I'm committed to. Right. So if this is the new world and I have been committed to gutting it out and pushing harder and pushing my people harder and maximizing X, Y, and Z and profit and I think there is a new way to calibrate around success and outcome. And unless we understand what we're committed to, any change we try to enact is going to be temporary. It's not going to be sustainable. So a simple question that I I pose to my leaders is okay, what is your new commitment? Because if you think about it, we get good at what we practice. So if we have practiced being busy and really um pride ourselves on being busy and getting tons done and pushing our people, and we've set that culture, then we've gotten really good at that. And so people are really outstandingly practiced at burnout. And so commendable, like you're accomplishing exactly what you're intending or what you're committing to. And I don't mean that as a criticism, it's just an awareness. So if we can come back instead and set a new commitment, that partnerships look different. Our partnership with AI gives us an opportunity to really maximize our time, right? All these systems that weren't working well, or you just had to work so hard to maintain them. Now with an AI partnership, a lot of that's taken care of. And so now I can be in my highest zone of thinking and I can invite all of my team members and constituents into that same space. And so my commitment then, for the opportunity anyway, my commitment then can be wow, how do I draw out everyone's highest thinking? How do I allow creativity into the workplace now? Whereas unfortunately, it's been dormant in a lot of organizations and a lot of successful organizations too, it's been dormant because they've been relying on this um a different, a different methodology, we'll say. I'm gonna have Erica speak to that. So I would ask folks to change and just look at the commitment they want to make to um productivity being more of is the state of my being the best it can be? And am I interacting from that place so that people are even more collaborative, even more creative, feeling a sense of real commitment to the cause because they have a voice. They are now like gatherings of humans having experiences, not all these different roles coming together for an end result.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's great. Erica, any and just curious, any comments to what Ellen just said?

SPEAKER_02:

I agree with everything she said. And the um something else that's come forward here for me is the invitation to leaders to um consider what it would what it would feel like, what would shift for them if they started operating more from a place of wisdom and less from a place of a mental construct. So instead of moving through the day, constantly with their brain on overdrive, thinking, grinding, analyzing, again, if we can pause, get ourselves centered, and dial into a deeper wisdom, how might things shift or change for them, for their people, for their organization? I think we're we are entering into an era where wisdom is going to be the new superpower, not how powerful is your mind. We're gonna have to go deeper to meet the the opportunities in this new era.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's really good. As I listen to both of you, I mean, again, it's it's incredible, but it's gonna be very difficult for a lot of leaders to accept that that's what they have to become and they need that to self-reflect and begin where both of you said. What do you think the challenges will be for companies and the leaders that said, you say, you know what, I'm not changing a thing. I've been successful before, and I'm gonna continue on the same path, you know, whatever AI, I don't care about it. I'm gonna continue to grind, push my people just like I've always had. What type of risk do you think though do those companies have in front of them, knowing where, you know, what is happening in the world and in business?

SPEAKER_02:

They risk becoming completely irrelevant. It's not even a risk, it's a certainty. Wow. Because what will happen is the people in their organizations that start to understand and lean into this new way of being in the world, and they understand how to unlock true value. Once you understand how to unlock true value, there's unlimited money behind that. There's unlimited resources supporting that. So they're good people, the people who are going to lean into this new way of being will leave their companies and will go start new ventures and partner with AI and with other humans who understand this way of being and unlock incredible value. And the people who are stuck in their old ways, surviving in this software death cycle, um, you know, with their nervous systems on overdrive and pushing, pushing, pushing. Uh, it's a model for self-destruction at the individual, team, and organization level.

SPEAKER_00:

I would think what would happen too, Erica, is uh, you know, if leaders continue on that path, what'll start to happen, the ones that do evolve are going to be creating these cultures that are they're so magnetic, right? And people are gonna want to go to work there. So I think we'll see a potential mass exodus from from companies that don't evolve and they're gonna lose their best people.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. It's a certainty.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, just amazing. So, and then adaptability, just a another way to look at this, um, Ellen, this this one's more for you. You know, with your expertise really also on you know, mental wellness, um energetic well-being, physical well-being, all of that, when you when you look at this technology, you know, what AI has given us, and knowing that we're only seeing, you know, just a glimpse of what is possible. I mean, it is it is evolving at a rate unlike anything we have ever seen in our lifetime. But but all of us as humans, you know, we're gonna experience challenges with this. What is, you know, what's your biggest fear when you think of other people, even your yourself and your friends that, you know, we're we're all working through this together. What would you say, you know, to all of us that we need to be on the lookout for, or what should be important as we're as we're continuing to navigate this shift?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think you just said it. I think my biggest fear is that people will be trapped in fear that they won't see uh what an incredible tool we have at our ready to make our lives easier and more successful. I think anytime there's change, um, there's a tendency to resist it. And understandably, our nervous systems are designed and wired for safety. So the first inclination is to be fearful, right? It's a new element that we have to integrate into our day. And so to look at that and not constantly override it, but to work with it. How do you lock arms with fear and say, yes, this is different? But if my commitment is to using it to the highest of my ability for the greater good of everybody, then that's that's what will be. And so it becomes a matter of just looking at this fear of every generation. I know plenty of young adults that I work with, emerging leaders, who are fearful of it. And I know many senior leaders who are fearful of it. And my invitation to them is like, yes, but what if? What is your life like if you can embrace the change and work with it and shift the commitment, as we were saying before, to this provides ease, this provides even greater connection with my people. And with that as a daily mantra, the the daily rituals start to line up differently. So, not to be in fear state where we literally are seeping energy all day long. Our cognition declines, our it affects us at a cellular level. Instead, if we can just find a way to embrace it, set that commitment, and then notice the rituals that line up differently. Like, okay, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, come back, take a beat, you know, take a pause, go stand on the grass outside, or if you're living in the city, go find some green space, or just close your eyes and go to that place in your mind where you're feeling a little bit more expanded, you're feeling a little bit more free. And then just check in with yourself throughout the day when you do start to feel fear and give yourself an opportunity to see it as a catalyst for change, not a destruction for self or the way things have been. And so I don't mean for this to sound philosophical. Actually, literally, you know, I'll be redundant and say we get good at what we practice. And so if we can practice staying open to the potential that this provides us and we develop a great relationship with innovation, right? We expand our thinking, we calm our nervous system, it starts to trust that we're okay, then that's really when it starts to take off. But just like when we're teaching a child how to ride a bike, we don't put them on a unicycle. Like we just we're slowly walking behind them, and then they have a chance to get some momentum on their own. That's how I would face anything. So especially this, like just take the time to develop the mindset and the habits to really embrace what this can do to change life for the positive. And so if we can do that, I can't, I'm so excited. I don't even have the words. I'm so excited for how we're gonna change the way we human, you know, human as a verb.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I love it. And I, you know, I think in Erica, this is as I was thinking about what Ellen was saying, you know, with your background, your education, and how you've coached leaders and helped businesses scale, I mean, there's always been like a roadmap. You know, there's been experts that have come before us that have proven that certain models, certain steps, a certain way of approaching business, if done consistently in the right way, could and should produce a certain result. What I see today, that there is no roadmap. Like this is so new and so different. There's nothing for us to like say, oh, that person was successful and they did it, you know, five years ago, and I'm just gonna go emulate that and you know, model a master is something that I use use a lot. That to me, that is can it's probably concerning, I would say, for some leaders, because it is such a blank canvas, and we are designing and adapting every day ourselves. Do you I'm just curious what your comments would be on that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I know you're exactly right. I think there will be no roadmap that's gonna work for every company or every person or every team. I think what we'll be doing is reorienting ourselves around core principles that can help ground us in the moment, that we can then, you know, operate from a grounded place in this time of radical, you know, adaptation and change. We have to shift our mindsets from wanting a roadmap of clear ways forward to what are some grounding principles that we can start with and root ourselves there and then trust again our wisdom, our intuition, trust our people and their wisdom to move forward in in the right direction from those grounding principles. It's a whole different way of thinking and of leading businesses. You know, some some of those some of those core principles are, you know, putting an emphasis on trust within your organization, trust within yourself, trust within your teams, trust-based collaboration between humans and humans and AI. Trust is going to be at the center of everything. So that's one grounding principle. Another is thinking about bi-directional learning. So wherever you are in the organization, there it should be a learning environment where everyone is learning individually and together. Um, so structuring your organization around learning, redefining value, how do we look at value differently in terms of unlocking dormant potential for, you know, individually as a team and with our clients in the market. And then thinking about how we work with AI and how we work with technology, moving from a grounding principle being get out of the software spin. Software is dead. We now live in a world of AI, which we like to call adaptive intelligence, not artificial intelligence, because if partnered with the right way, AI can actually partner with the human to navigate any systems that are in place, navigate processes that are broken and don't work to unlock that value. Um, and then the final sort of grinding grounding principle, I think, is shifting from a focus of be being in survival mode to focusing on potential. What is the potential of this moment, of this business, of the market that we're in? What is the potential? And then orienting ourselves and our teams around the potential. So those are some grounding principles. And I think we'll find more as we go, but I think it's going to be more about aligning ourselves to some ground to some grounding principles as opposed to searching for a roadmap that's going to just tell us the way forward.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it. That is so good. I mean, I think for the listeners, you know, just replay the last 20 minutes that what both of you said and the in your views on how we have to behave, I believe, and just look at the moment, the moment that we're in differently. It's super powerful. And I and I do think that that is going to be very helpful for those that that truly want to embrace this and believe that change is going to be necessary. You both did a just a phenomenal job at, you know, for you know, as I'm listening to you, I'm like, okay, got to take that note, take that note. I can I can do that myself. And so it was really, really awesome that you that you what you both shared. So thank you. And and I know I didn't give you time to even think about you know these questions really. And it's it's just so it's so new for all of us every day. It's changing so fast. I was listening to a podcast this morning and where um the person that was being interviewed, I can't think of his name, but he said that you know, he doesn't even go to Google anymore. He looks at Google search like the yellow pages. Everything's AI. I mean, it's that think about that. Like, you know, a year ago or a year and a half ago, I used Google search for everything. And I'm I'm probably no different. I still probably do it out of habit, but that is how fast this world is changing. You know, you we're going from yellow pages to internet, took you know, years, right? For that to really transform. This is happening like live, like the world is changing the behaviors because of what AI has produced. So it's really these grounding principles. What you both shared is those are fantastic. So thank you, thank you very much. I would like to ask each of you a personal question, and you guys can take turns on who wants to go first. This will be kind of how we wrap up the podcast. But these are for both of you, just to reflect backwards a little bit, a story from each of you where you had to adapt, whether that was personally or professionally, and what you learned through that process. Because I do think this is advice that you know you could you can share with the listeners and share with organizations on uh the power of being adaptive and how you were able to successfully move from you know wherever you were to where you are now. So any story you have that you think you would like to share with the listeners would be greatly appreciated. Fight over who goes first.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm happy yeah, yeah. Um, so I recently fractured my shoulder. So I love to be active, I love to be out in the world, I love nature, I love movement and exercise, I love travel and flying, and I had a number of things on my schedule that mattered to me that I wanted to be at. And I really needed to adapt my mindset first to this is just a time for you to be slow. You have to be slow. It's a deep wound, and really the only thing you can do for it is nothing. And it's been a challenge to shift into that slower way of being. But I I'm so grateful because what it has done, it has cleared all of the things that that weren't aligning. You know, you get real clear real quick using one arm, what you're gonna spend your time and your energy on. And the things that just don't matter fall away. And you you realize, or I have realized that it's helped me get crystal clear. It's helped me preserve my energy for the things that, as I said, matter most, including and especially my healing. So coming back to the state of my being is all I have. And so, what am I doing to adapt the mindset and the daily behaviors that support that?

SPEAKER_00:

That's beautiful. I know obviously you would not wish to go through this again, but you have made the best of it and you found, you know, little nuggets that have that have something you can carry with you in case you ever go through another challenge, hopefully not an injury like this again. But but that's a great, great story. Thank you so much for for sharing that that personal side. Erica, have you had anything that you thought of that you would like to share?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. Um, there's so much. It feels like my whole life has been a series of um adaptations. Uh it's been a journey. But two years ago, about two years ago, actually, this month, um I made an abrupt transition from being inside of the corporate world as an executive, CEO, um inside the corporate world to going out on my own and starting new businesses. And so that was the first, that was a big moment of adaptation. Um, I had to adjust some things within myself and my external world. I had to reorient a lot of things to try to create value very quickly. And one of the things I learned, started to learn in that moment was A, I slowed down and tried to get in touch with that wisdom to say, what is it that I'm being called to do next? Because it doesn't look like what I've been doing for the last 20 years. So what is it? And um what came forward for me were two things. One, only create things with people I love and trust. Two, and this is before I started embracing like AI was just coming on the scene. Right. But again, my inner wisdom was saying love and trust have to be at the center. You have to create something that is of the greatest good for as for the greatest number of people. And you can never work for somebody again. Okay, so that's those were my grounding principles. And I went from there and ended up then doing exactly that. And as those businesses have have grown and I've surrounded myself with partners, with collaborators, with clients who I genuinely love deeply and trust, it's amazing the growth that's come from that. And as we've been growing in those ways, AI has become more and more prevalent and working closely with my AI partners, realizing the moment that we're in, I'm realizing that I too need to evolve to that next level quickly to be able to lead and be the change. If I'm going to talk to leaders about how to walk that walk, I have to walk it first. So the next level of adaptation for me has been going even further inward to understand my stress levels, understand why my nervous system gets hijacked so easily. I'm always, you know, historically running hot, if you will, working with Ellen, the best, the very best in the world at what she does, to understand what's going on within my body that's driving my nervous system. How do I calm that down from the inside out so that I'm operating from the very best, highest place of wisdom that I can be as I'm trying to guide people and organizations through this next era? It it I have to get myself as grounded and as awakened as I can to be able to lead in that way. So I feel how difficult it's going to be for all these leaders because I'm still walking that walk. I don't have it all figured out. Um it's not easy. I'm still changing, I'm still understanding and changing habits. And um, you know, it's not easy. But I am, but again, my new commitment is living at that level of being so that I can shine that light for other people and show that it is possible.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. Amen to that. You know, what I love about both of you is and really what you you shared with all of us, and this was really, really meaningful, is that you know, you practice what what you preach, right? You you work on yourself, you're working, and and I think because you both have done this for a period of time, you know. I know Ellen, you've been in the space a long time with the wellness, but it's prepared you in a way for this moment. Isn't that fascinating? Like, like I'm like you have a head start, and with that becomes you have responsibility to to share and to help the leaders, and I and I feel that same way. Having met you two this year, I've quickly learned some things about myself and and how I lead, and now feel that okay, I have something that I need to be sharing with others in the world, and this is big time stuff. Like this is this is game-changing material. So I just I can't thank you both enough. This was really an awesome uh show. Your time was much appreciated. And I know as we continue to evolve in this human AI partnership world that we're in, this new era, the potential era, that having you on you know on the show again is is definitely a a no-brainer. So thank you both for your time and uh thank you for being on the show.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you for having us.