Process of Faith
Searching for place to walkthrough the Bible and hear like minded christians learning the word of God? You have found it. Join me as I journey for the first time through, guided by my good friend as we try to forge our lives according to God's will. Whether you have expert understanding or you're just getting started like me, open your Bible, pop in your ear buds and go on this journey with us. We would love to have you.
Process of Faith
John 6: Bread, Storms and the Making of Faith
We dive deep into John chapter 6 and Jesus' miracles and tests. We discuss God giving us visions to change our hearts while adding some humor and pop culture references.
Welcome friends to Process of Faith. Here, we don't just study the Bible, we live it, one step at a time. This is about the raw, real journey of discovery. We unpack verses that hit like lightning, wrestle with questions that keep us up at night, and celebrate those aha moments that remind us God's story is still unfolding in ours. Whether you're a lifelong believer, a curious seeker, or somewhere beautifully in between, grab your Bible and your listening ears and join us. You're not alone on this path. Let's walk it together. Welcome to the process. So, how are you doing today, John?
SPEAKER_02:I am it's nice to be back. Let me just I missed you guys the last couple weeks. I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I moved my house. That's why I haven't been on for a couple weeks, but I'm I'm good. You moved your whole house? Nothing.
SPEAKER_01:Break it down like Legos and move it and put it back up.
SPEAKER_02:Well, no, it actually folds down kind of like a card table. Oh, and then you know, you and me just carried it to the new location. Yeah, that was good stuff. Yeah, that was a long day, wasn't it? Yeah, it's good to have you back. It is good to be back. I listened to your I finally got a chance to listen to your mini sode, your forgiveness one that you did last week. I don't remember when you posted it. I think it was just Saturday. I don't know. I thought that was really good, man. That was exactly what I needed. I mean, I struggle with I think I think most humans struggle with grudges and bitterness at times and anger and being reminded that we are forgiven by God as we forgive others. It's kind of a big that's a big deal.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, he commands us to. Yes, yeah. I heard something this morning, and it was put in such a way I wish I would have heard it prior to put it in the in the episode. But the pastor said, God forgives you more, God has forgiven you more than you'll ever need to forgive someone else.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. There's a parable. I don't remember, I don't think you touched on it, but there's a parable of a of a servant who went before his master and he owed him like I don't know, 10 years worth of salary. I know this story. Yeah. And the master forgave him after he begged for mercy, and then the servant went out and beat this dude up over like three days' wages or something. And and the master found out and he like put him in jail. So yeah, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I I re I don't know why I didn't put that in the thing, but I remember reading that. Yeah, that was a good one. Yeah, that's a that's a good one.
SPEAKER_02:We will we will we will never be able not be able, that's not the right word. We're we're we are so much worse than we think we are a lot of the time that we need to remember that when we're dealing with other people, because you know, we're just we're in the s we're all in the same boat.
SPEAKER_01:So what about John chapter five? Anything from that you want to touch on?
SPEAKER_02:John chapter five, man. You I really enjoyed having Kyle, the other Kyle, the square root of Kyle. You guys said Kyle squared, and I laughed. I really enjoyed his take on things. He's got he's got really good fundamental background, and so I enjoy his thoughts on things. There was one thing that I kind of wanted to address, and that was you guys were talking. I I don't remember who brought it, but you guys got into a little talk about near-death experiences. I brought that up. Was that you? Okay, I thought so, but I wasn't gonna say that. So you guys talked a little bit about that, and there was I just wanted to clarify, I don't believe that I believe in near-death experience. I mean, I believe that God can raise people from the dead. Let me put it that way. Obviously, Jesus did it to his buddy Lazarus. There's been multiple reports of it through the centuries of you know, God working miracles and bringing people back from the dead. But I the the part that I wanted to clarify was I firmly believe that when we die, our choice to follow Jesus goes away. I don't think that after death we have the opportunity to get right with God. I think it's before death is the last time. So, anyone who's listening, who's on the fence, let me say this as bluntly, I'm gonna be as blunt as I know how to be. If you know you need to get right with God, don't wait. Do it today. You could get hit by a dump truck on the way home from work, or maybe you're in your car already. Get right with God right now if you can, because there's gonna come a time when it's too late. So that was my only I just wanted to clarify my position on that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's I think I think part of that was that I I worded it in a way I I worded it in a way that made it sound like actually I probably said that they went to heaven or went to hell. And we've had a few discussions between the three of us since then, and actually, square root Kyle he actually said it really well that made sense about maybe it's just a vision and not so much because God is going to save the people that he wants to save and only he can save them or change their mind. He's that's what he said. He said that only God can change their mind, right? Yeah, and so maybe God was using a vision to do that. Maybe they weren't actually, or probably weren't actually in heaven or in hell and then had the opportunity to repent. Right. It was a vision to say this is what's going to happen.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, God gives wake-up calls in all kinds of terrible, scary ways. Yeah. So I I remember him saying that I'm like, that's a very good possibility. I have no idea. I mean, I've never died, so I really don't know what's what's on the other, you know. I I know where we go because the Bible tells us where we go, but the process to get there, I it's there's, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of unanswered questions in there that the Bible doesn't, you know, do we go to heaven the minute we die? Do we the in Revelation it talks about how Jesus is gonna raise us all up? We're all gonna come up into heaven at the end. So where are we in between? We can't already be in heaven. So there are questions there about that, but uh that's there's a lot of speculation, but we know what the Bible says, and that is that we have the opportunity right now to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, to obey his words, to advance his kingdom, to live sanctified holy lives to the best of our ability, and and then God takes care of the rest. And so I don't know about all the I don't know about all the ins and outs of exactly what what happens. Actually, I have a I know this isn't we have John chapter six to go through, but I had a thought on this yesterday, and you know, this is do you want to get into this? This is yeah, okay, because this is kind of way off the track. But so God invented time, right? God lives outside of time, he lives in eternity, that's where he exists, so he can see all of time at once.
SPEAKER_01:So a place where, you know, let's hypothetically, if we're there, five minutes to us might be a thousand years on earth or opposite.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, or there's no time whatsoever. I've heard some theologians say that's hard to wrap your mind around it's impossible because we have finite minds and we're talking about an infinite unit, you know, thing. But the way that I heard this theologian explain it, I think it was C. S. Lewis. Don't quote me on that, but I think it was C. S. Lewis. He said that when you are outside of time, you can see all of the past, present, and the future all at the same time, because it's like, you know, we're still working in finite things because that's the only way we can describe it. But it's kind of like opening a book and being able to see all the pages all at once because you're not in the book, right? Right. So that's kind of so when we die, my theory, and this is just me, I didn't read this anywhere, so you know, you can tear me apart on it. But my theory is that when we die and our spirit leaves our body, we leave time and space, we go to a spiritual dimension outside of time and space. And when we're outside of time, it might we, you know, then maybe we are immediately before the judgment seat of God, and then we're in heaven because maybe it all happens at once, that moment that we're outside of time. To us, we would we have no way to comprehend how that would work. But that was my one thought on how you know you can die, go to heaven, but then you know, there's like a process to us within the realm of time, but then this is getting really far out there. So for you, purgatory, yay or nay? Nay, I don't believe in purgatory. I think the biggest thing with purg, and I knew you were gonna ask me that because I kind of left it open. The the biggest problem I have with purgatory is that you you you have to rely on other people to get out of it. Um you know, and and that's not biblical. Jesus teaches us how to pray. He gives us the Lord's Prayer, and he tells us to pray to our Father in heaven, not to pray to, you know, saints or family members or any there's no precedence for that in the Bible that I can recall. So no, I I don't believe in I don't believe in purgatory.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know where I sit on that, honestly. I think the notion is a little goofy, if if you want my honest blunt opinion. I do. Always. I I think it's a little a little goofy, and I haven't had the opportunity yet, but I do want to dig deep into the the history of it and and how it was brought up to the Catholic Church and and w wh why they decided that purgatory was a thing and necessary to teach. Yeah. So I would Once I do that, we'll talk about it.
SPEAKER_02:I would love to hear about it. I'm curious about that, like if they have any scriptural references for that, because that would I mean then that would be a better discussion. Absolutely. So but yeah, no, I don't just I don't believe in purgatory. Is that it on the past past stuff? Uh yeah, I really enjoyed John John 5 with you and Kyle, the Kyle Squared, and like I said, your forgiveness one was that that was really good for me too. I enjoyed it. Thank you. But I missed being here. I was so excited we get to get back.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, I was too waved this morning. Okay, before we get into John chapter six, as always, I'm gonna ask you guys a couple favors. Leave a comment just so we can get an idea of how we're doing. You can also leave a question there if you have a question, or maybe you feel like we missed something that we should have talked about or got something wrong. We're open to your opinions as long as they're factual opinions.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm open to any opinion, to be honest. The other request sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, that's okay.
SPEAKER_01:The other request is we want to hear from you guys, we want to hear your stories. So please email us with your story, how you came to Christ. Maybe you left Christ and you came back. Maybe you've been a follower all along. Either way, we would love to hear your story. So email us, please, at faith in process at yahoo.com.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, those are so encouraging. I remember Ken's story, and it was that was encouraging. That stuck with me for years. If you're listening, Ken, thank you for sharing. That was awesome. I would love to hear more, just selfishly for myself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:All right. Let's uh start with a prayer.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Okay. Scissors.
SPEAKER_02:Uh you win. I guess I go first. Okay. Uh Heavenly Father, thank you for today. Thank you for beautiful warm weather in the middle of November in Omaha. We uh it's just refreshing. And you know, you we're gonna learn that you not only take care of the big things in our life, but also the smaller things. And, you know, the weather today, that's a smaller thing, but it sure is a blessing. So thank you for that. Thank you for this time with Kyle this morning, where we can talk about God's word, share it with each other, and with you. I pray that we would honor your word, that we would represent you correctly, and that you would get all the glory and and yeah, you'd get all the glory, not us. So thank you for today and Amen.
SPEAKER_01:Amen. Did I tell you, Gemma and I, we have a new little tradition that we started? Did I tell you what it was? No. Well, I'm trying to I'm trying to kind of teach her how to pray and to be thankful and things like that. Okay. So we get to school and in the morning, as soon as we park, because she likes me to walk her to the door, we park and she takes my hand, we say a little prayer, and yeah. Very cool. Yeah, it's been fun. Nice. So wow. All right. Father of the year material, right now. Oh, I don't think that, not at all. Good job. That's awesome. Okay, John chapter six. Jesus feeds five thousand. After this, Jesus crossed over to the far side of the Sea of Galilee, also known as the Sea of Tiberias. A huge crowd kept following him wherever he went, because they saw his miraculous signs as he headed, sorry, as he healed the sick. Then Jesus climbed a hill and sat down with his disciples around him. It was nearly time for the Jewish Passover celebration. Jesus saw a huge crowd of people coming to look for him. Turning to Philip, he asked, Where can we buy bread to feed all these people? He was testing Philip, for he already knew what he was going to do. Can I pause there? Yeah. So Passover. Oh, all right. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Go ahead. Passover. I did a little research into Passover. Okay. I've I've heard it spoke about before, but I wanted a little more context. Jewish Passover is a very big celebration for the Jewish people. Yes, it is one of their biggest ones. So the story of Passover, it's found in the Torah, which is Torah is a Hebrew word for instruction or teachings. The first five books Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Yep. Five books of Moses, correct? Yeah, Moses wrote the first five. There's a word that it goes by pentateauk or how do you say that?
SPEAKER_02:I'm not sure exactly how it's that's how yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Anyway. So the story is in Exodus, correct? Yes. Which the word Exodus means like a mass leaving.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Exodus is evacuating one area. Yeah. Exiting. Exodus. Yes. Exit. I get it. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, they were the Israelites were s were well, it started with when Jose Joseph was tricked by his brothers and sold into slavery to the Egyptians, and then the Egyptians ended up building up the Israelites in Egypt to be slaves. Okay. I think I have that correct. So the Pharaohs had all these Jewish slaves, and there was a Pharaoh that eventually got a little leery of the Israelites, because they were multiplying and multiplying and multiplying and becoming, you know, large in number. And the Pharaoh decided that he would have all f all infant born Jewish sons killed. All the male firstborn sons killed. Yep. To the Israelite women. And it didn't specify which Pharaoh, but I did some digging, and there's some people that think it's either Fer King Ramses II, just based on timeline and what the the Israelites were building for the Egyptian Egyptians, or Amos, which I've never heard of that one.
SPEAKER_02:If you watch the old Charleston Heston movie The Ten Commandments, they they attribute that or they Ramses is the pharaoh in that movie. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Alright. Yep. It's a classic. It kind of makes me wonder. Maybe the Jewish slaves were the ones that built pyramids. There's a lot of speculation about that, but that's a conversation for another. Oh, I know. I'm all in on the pyramids. Anyway so there was, you know, there was a couple very brave Jewish midwives that were trying to protect the boys that were born, but even still, that was very risky. But there is one Jewish woman, Yaakoved, I think I'm saying that correctly. She had a baby boy, and she didn't want the baby boy to die. She wanted to protect it. She was scared. So she puts the baby boy in a basket and floats it down the Nile River. Moses. Yes. So a Pharaoh daughter finds the basket and decides, I'm gonna have myself a child, and names him Moses, which means drawn from the water. Moses grows up, and even though he grew up with the Egyptians, he had everything he wanted, it's a lavish. He was royalty. Yeah, he was fine. He still understood that what they were doing to the Israelites was wrong. And at one point he finds a Egyptian master, I don't taskmaster or whatever they're called, right. Beating on a slave, and Moses just said, heck no. Moses kills him and then realizes I'm in big trouble. And he dips out. Right. Okay. He gets married. But eventually he goes back to the Pharaoh and he pleads with the Pharaoh to let the Israelites free. Well, the Pharaoh doubles down and says, I'm gonna treat him even worse. So he's working them harder, he's beating them harder, and Jesus comes to Moses and tells him I think he tells him, I don't know. Either way, Jesus has a plan. He's going to inflict ten plagues on the Egyptians until they set the Israelites free. The tenth plague is that firstborn sons will be du will be killed. Okay? However, the Israelites, if they were to slay a lamb and put the blood of the lamb on their door, so Jesus knows they were the Israelites, so he would pass them, or God knows they're the Israelites, he passes them over, and they will be spared. And then eventually the Pharaoh says, Okay, I've had enough. Israelites, you're free. And I mean they packed up and they left town real fast.
SPEAKER_02:Exodus.
SPEAKER_01:They had an Exodus. But the Pharaoh changed his mind. Right. And then he went after them, and that's where Moses parched the Red Sea. And anyway, I thought that's a cool story. I like the story of the Passover. I just thought it was neat.
SPEAKER_02:It is. It's obviously another foreshadowing of what Jesus did for us. And you know, the whole story of the Ten Plagues is just an example of God's power and his sovereignty over the earth. You know, he controls everything from locusts to the rivers. And I mean, there was rivers of blood and locusts and fogs and boils on skin and just nasty stuff. And yeah, the 10 the story of the Ten Commandments is fantastic. And honestly, you know, I don't normally recommend a lot of pop culture stuff, but the original Charleston Hesson movie of the Ten Commandments is pretty solid and it's worth a watch. So yeah, that's that's a good story. And so the Passover they celebrate every year as a reminder of how God set them free and protected them in the process. Yes. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:That's a big one. So apparently they don't eat leavened bread on the Passover because I'm not really sure how this connects or makes sense, but the story was that I read that they left before their bread could even rise. Once they were having their exercise. Oh, interesting. And so they don't eat leavened bread, and that's where matza comes in. Yeah, I thought it was interesting. That is interesting. I'd never heard that before. Okay, back to chapter six. We're getting off topic here. Yep. So Jesus is testing Philip, and Philip fails because Jesus wanted to see Philip's faith in God that God will provide. And Philip's focus was on Oh, I guess I didn't even read that yet. No, you left off on verse five. I'm sorry. Okay. Verse Verse 6, actually. He was testing Philip, for he already knew what was going to what he was going to do. Okay, verse 7. Philip replied, even if we worked for months, we wouldn't have enough money to feed them. Okay. Now we're now we're there. So Philip fails the test because Philip is Philip is focused on working in money and material items instead of the faith that God will provide. Yes? Okay. That might be correct in there? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Verse 8. Then Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, spoke up. There's a young boy here with five barley loaves and two fish. But what good is that with this huge crowd? Again, not focusing on God will provide, but focusing on the material things. Right. Alright. Well, what good is that? He's just a young boy with a little bit of food. I think that's important. We'll come back to that. Jesus says, Tell everyone to sit down. So they all sat down on the grassy slopes. The men alone numbered 5,000. So when it says men alone, I'm assuming there's women and children also.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, most people, a lot of the scholars of the time say 15 to 20,000 mouths.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Why does it only specify the men? Do you have an issue with that? Jewish culture. Okay. Only men were counted in the census, even in the Old Testament. I mean, all the way through the Old Testament, whenever it gave numbers for heads of people, it always just was men. It was just the way it should be. I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_01:That's a joke.
SPEAKER_02:Because the women should have been in the kitchen making me a sandwich. Making me some unleavened bread, please.
SPEAKER_01:I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm too very much. Yep. Then Jesus took the loaves, gave thanks to God, and distributed them to the people. Afterward, he did the same with the fish, and they all ate as much as they wanted. Another miracle that Jesus provides. One of the things I took away from this, the young boy, it doesn't matter if you're young, old, or in between. I think you can offer something to Jesus, to God, to anyone in need. Okay. No? Don't you think that?
SPEAKER_02:No, I mean I do. How did you correlate that to the story? Is my cure is my question.
SPEAKER_01:Well, they it specifies there's a young boy. And that just kind of stood out to me. Like, why does that matter? Right. Where did he get loaves and fish to begin with? Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? But he had 'em. And he gave them. And he offered them up. So even as a young boy, age is not an important factor. We can all be obedient to God. We can be generous at any age. And the volume of the generosity does not matter. No, it well, it was all he had. Yeah. But he didn't have enough to feed the whole crowd. No, but he gave all he had. He didn't give all he had. But it m my point is that it's a small amount in relation to what was needed. But that doesn't mean that it's not valuable. Right. It's still valuable, whether it's, you know, five cents or five million dollars. God can use it all. Yes. 100%. So that's what I got from that. Yeah, that's good. Now I'm gonna read the next one. Verse 12. After everyone was full, Jesus told his disciples, Now gather the leftovers so that nothing is wasted. So they picked up the pieces and filled 12 baskets with scraps left by the people who had eaten from the five barley loaves. So 12 baskets, 12 disciples. I think that's important. He is reinforcing the miracle that he performed. Not only did everyone get fed, but he's reinforcing and affirming what he's done by each disciple being able to take a basket of leftover food.
SPEAKER_02:Right. I mean he showed, hey, I when I'm done with what you give me, there will be more there than what we started with.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:The part that like I said, I read this a couple times, but the part that stood out to me like a blinking neon light was when Jesus said, Now gather the leftovers so that nothing is wasted. The first couple times I read it, I just passed over it like, okay, that's it didn't seem all that important to me. You know, it was not any different than if I make food at home and I say, make sure you put the leftovers in the fridge.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, we don't want to waste food.
SPEAKER_02:No. I like to put them in the Tupperware, put them in the fridge, and then let them go bad and throw them away then.
SPEAKER_01:That happens all too often. Yes, it does. But after I think it was like the third or fourth time I read that, for some reason that line was just blinking red to me. Okay. And it took me a while to kind of figure out what it meant, but I had this gut feeling that it meant something important. And to me, anyway, you kind of hit on it that there's always something more. Like God's blessing, He might give you a blessing, and there's always something more to give. But I think you can take this a couple different ways. Number one, don't take for granted his blessings. Throwing away the leftovers would kind of be taking his blessing for granted. Just not being a good steward of what you've been given. Yeah. The other thing I thought of was that, you know, you take the leftovers. What do you do with the leftovers sometimes? You sh you share the leftovers. Just like you would your food. But sometimes you share leftovers a little bit more. Share God's blessing with other people.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So it's funny you mentioned that because I was about to well, you know, and I've said this I think almost every podcast, but whenever I read the Bible and I read stories, I always ask three questions. What does what does this story say about God? What does this reveal about me as a person? And what is the application between who God is, who I am, and what needs to happen next? And so you just hit the nail on the head with the application, which is we share God's blessings. Whatever we have, we give. You can't out give God, is is what an old an old pastor friend of mine said. And another thought on that particular verse, number verse 12, where it says, you know, he says, so that nothing is wasted. An old friend of mine used to say, God is 100% efficient. He doesn't waste anything. Whether it's whether it's something bad that has happened in your life, maybe you've been through a divorce or you lost your job, or you know, whatever the case may be, God is not gonna waste that moment. In some way, he will let it, he will use it to bring glory to him, and he will also protect and restore you too. Another thing with this whole story that's worth mentioning, number one, Jesus didn't have to feed them. I mean, just from a practical standpoint, he, you know, the disciples were like, hey, we could send them away, yeah, so they can go get food. And Jesus is like, No, we can handle this. Like, this wasn't a huge deal. Uh granted, they were in a remote location, and maybe I should I'm getting ahead of myself here. I should let you finish this before. No, go ahead, keep going. So, anyways, there's there's he had compassion on them, he he satisfied their need. Now, granted, food is kind of important, so it's a big need, but there were other ways that they could have got it, and Jesus wouldn't have had to get involved. But he had compassion on them, and it reminded me of verse of of two other verses, one in Matthew chapter six, verse 33. And I have it here in the New King James Version, and it says, but seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. These people had followed him, they were pursuing Jesus, they were they were following him, they wanted to hear his words, they wanted to see his miracles. So seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and then all these things should be added to you. Therefore, don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow we'll worry about. About its own thing, sufficient, sufficient for the day is its own trouble, which is another way of saying tomorrow will have enough troubles on its own. Right. Focus on today. Yes. So God says that He will give us everything we need if we seek Him first. And then the other verse is in Philippians 4:19. And I gotta turn the page. And it says, And my God shall supply all your need, not just some of it, all your need according to his riches and glory by Christ Jesus. So God supplies our need if we pursue him. We don't have to worry about the little stuff. God takes care of it. This this story is an excellent example of that, where we don't see a way where we're gonna get fed or we're gonna get what we need. Jesus can make it work with whatever he's got, even if it's only two day old fishes and some stale bread.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I think it's important to specify that you said God provides what we need, not necessarily what we want.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Yeah, that was something else from your podcast the other day. And that was that that that kind of brought that particular the Philippians verse up in my mind because you guys were talking about God always gives us what we need when we need it. He doesn't always give us in fact, a lot of times what we think we need is actually the opposite of what we need. So, you know, we I need I need a I need a break from work, but God's like, not yet, you know, you know, you need to do the you you can't take vacation yet. You got some things coming up that you don't know about that you're gonna need that extra money for whatever, you know, right? So we we think we need things, God knows what we actually need, yeah. For sure. Yeah, the other thing I wanted to say about this verse, or about what we've read so far, there is this exact same story happens, it's told in a couple of other books in the other gospels. Matthew chapter 14 tells the story about Jesus feeding the 5,000 and then Mark six. Mark chapter six is another one. And the stories are different, they're not exactly the same. The other two, the other two chapters kind of give like a lead up to what happened here. So in the other ones, first off, Jesus has commissioned his 12 closest disciples to go out and do what they're supposed to do, right? Like, you know, go out and spread, tell the tell, share the words that I've shared with you with other people and do that. I'm not going with you. You this is an unsupervised, you know, trial run or whatever you want to call it. And so he sends them out, and then Jesus hears about John the Baptist. We've already talked about John the Baptist a bit, his cousin is beheaded by the king because he offended John offended the king, and so the king took his head, and Jesus hears about it and he's sad. And so, in one of those chapters, one of the books, I can't remember which one, Jesus decides he needs he's he's healing these people, he's he's ministering to everyone, and he's like, I need to get away. So he goes across the lake to this remote area, but everyone follows him, and then the disciples come back, and that's when the story of the feeding of the 5,000 happens. So, and then the those two chapters, Matthew 14 and Mark 6, go on to talk about the walking on water part, which we're gonna get to here in a minute. Yes, but it it's interesting to me how when you get that chronic the big thing that stood out to me in this was boundaries. Like Jesus had boundaries, he knew when he needed to get away. When the disciples came back from their excursions, he told them they needed to go rest too. So, so God knows when we need rest. We probably, at least me, I think I need rest way more often than God probably thinks I need rest. I wake up and I feel like I need to rest. I'm so tired from sleeping. So, but Jesus had boundaries, and so he would, you know, he was directing the disciples to where that he they needed to go. I'm sure they wanted to stay right by him all the time. Right. And then he had these crowds that he felt like he, you know, he needed to get away from at times too, but he also had compassion. And so, you know, then after that, we'll get to the rest of that when we get to the walking on water part. But I i if you want to read more about the feeding of the five thousand, go to Matthew 14 or Mark 6. Those are really that it's the same story just from a few different perspectives. I'm going to do that. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Verse 14 when the people saw him do this miraculous sign, they exclaimed, Surely he is the prophet we have been expecting. When Jesus saw that they were ready to force him to be their king, he slipped away into the hills by himself. Boundaries. Boundaries. And he's humble. Like I don't think he wanted to be their king on on earth, sitting on a throne and commanding them what to do. That wasn't the will of his father. I think if it was me, though, I'd be like, heck yeah, I'll be where's that crone? Is it gold? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Let's go.
SPEAKER_01:Do I get a staff? I want a staff and a robe. Verse 16 Jesus walks on water. That evening Jesus' disciples went down to the shore to wait for him, but as darkness fell and Jesus still hadn't come back, they got into the boat and headed across the lake towards Capernaum. Soon a gale swept down upon them, and the sea grew very rough. They had rowed three or four miles when suddenly they saw Jesus walking on the water toward the boat. They were terrified, but he called out to them, Don't be afraid, I am here. Then they were eager to let him in the boat, and immediately they arrived at their destination. I feel like the Sea of Galilee is kind of like Lake Michigan, just smaller. Like it gets bad storms and the weather gets crazy and the waves get big and Yeah. Well, it was o I don't know how big the Sea of Galilee was, but if it's obviously Well, from what I enveloped, kind of in a bowl with mountains all around, and so when the wind comes in, it gets just wreaks havoc. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, they had rode three or four miles and weren't even across that's a big lake. I just for it being in landlock, Nebraska, that just seems like a Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That'd be big. It's a big lake. But they saw him.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know if they thought he was a ghost or what, but it says that in one of the in uh one of maybe in both of them, Matt 14 and Mark 6. Yeah, this story's there too. And actually those are my preferred versions of this story.
SPEAKER_01:But anything on that other than Jesus comes to I mean, they obviously waited for him for a little bit and then decided, you know what, he's not here, so we're gonna book out, and then then he showed up.
SPEAKER_02:Well, Jesus told them to get in the boat and go. He uh in one is that in one of the other Yeah, he uh so when in the in this particular chapter it it says that Jesus needed to get away because they wanted to make him king by force. In some of the other ones, Jesus wanted to dismiss the crowds and go across. I don't think this is a contradiction. I think they just, you know, are seeing the story from a few different angles. So, but in all of them, Jesus tells the disciples to get in the boat and go across without him. He wanted to go and be by himself for a little bit and probably pray and recoup and you know do whatever Jesus does on his own, which I can't imagine, but I'd love to find out, you know. So, yeah, so he tells them to go, and then after dark, he he goes, you know, he's gonna cross the lake. And as he does, it it's rough. These are fishermen, by the way. These are guys that are used to being in boats. This is not like you know, some weekend warrior, right? Just you know, like, oh, we need to take this boat. They are used to being in the boat and they are used to being on this lake, and this time they're like, This is not ideal, you know, right? And so when they're probably already stressed out, and then they see a figure. You know, if it was a full moon, maybe they could see him a little better, but if it was like a half moon or no moon, they may not have seen him until he was up near the boat. Right. Who knows? Probably looking like a a walking shadow or something, right? There were no, you know, flashlights back then, or you know, uh they had they had their torches, I suppose, but you know how reliable light from a torch is. Yeah. So yeah, that when he came up to the boat, uh obviously that's not a common thing to see a dude just walking. So yeah, I would have thought it was a ghost too. I I don't, I mean, I don't know that I would have reacted any differently. But in the other two chapters, and what this one omits is the story of Peter getting out of the boat while they're on the water? Yeah, you are you familiar with this? Oh, dude, you need to go read these. So I do in in the other two, they think it's a ghost, and then they're like they realize it's Jesus, and Peter is like as you read through the gospels, you realize that Simon Peter is kind of the bombastic, bold, foot and mouth dude. He's always got, you know, he's he's the ambitious one of the group. And he's like, Let me walk to you on the water. You're walking on the water. I want to walk on the water. So Jesus says, Yeah, come to me. And so Peter gets out of the boat and walks on the water towards Jesus. But he freaks out because of the winds and the waves. He takes his eyes off Jesus and then he sinks instead of walking on the water. And so Jesus grabs him, puts them back in the boat, and then they're immediately on the other end, the other shore that they were going to. The other version, the other stories are more fun because of the the Peter part. Right. But apparently John wasn't focused when he wrote the book of John. He wasn't as focused. Maybe he had a maybe he was a little jealous of Peter. I I don't he's like, I'm not even gonna put him in here. I don't know, but that wasn't the that wasn't the focus that John wanted to put on on Jesus in this in his particular story. So yeah, read the other ones. It's very interesting. And there's all kinds of things we can get into about that particular story in sermons I've heard, but we are focusing on John 6.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, we are. Okay, verse 22. The next day the crowd that had stayed on the far shore saw that the disciples had taken the only boat, and they realized Jesus had not gone with them. Several boats from Tiberius landed near the place where the Lord had blessed the bread and the people had eaten. So when the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went across to Capernaum to look for him. They found him on the other side of the lake and asked, Rabbi, when did you get here? Jesus replied, I tell you the truth, you want to be with me because I fed you, not because you understood the miraculous signs. But don't be so concerned about perishable things like food. Spend your energy seeking the eternal life that the Son of Man can give you. For God the Father has given me the seal of his approval. They replied, We want to perform God's works too. What should we do? Jesus told them, This is the only work God wants from you. Believe in the one he has sent. I like I get this. They answered, Show us a miraculous sign if you want us to believe in you. What can you do? Like, dude, has he not done enough? Right, he literally just fed you yesterday. I yeah.
SPEAKER_02:They just want him to do tricks. Yeah, you know. Well, remember the story of the nobleman's son who was sick that we I think it was John 4. Yes. And Jesus looks at him and says, you know, why is it you guys need signs and wonders? And I always thought that was an odd question because the guy's like, Can you heal my son? And he just sidestepped it. But yeah, it's human nature. As humans, we want the show, we want the Super Bowl halftime show. You know what I mean? Like, we want the big production, and miracles are a big production, and they want to see that. They're they're more interested in that than they are getting into the head, you know, like into the deeper spiritual where you might have to face yourself or or those things, which is it's human nature. But Jesus always he speaks right to the core of things, like every time he's like, Here's what you need to do. You need to believe, you need to believe in the one that he has sent. You need to believe in me. And that means they have to listen to what he has to say. And some of what he had to say was controversial for one, it was getting him in trouble with the other religious leaders, and you know, two, it spoke against things that they didn't want to deal with, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's kind of like that one friend that constantly hangs around you because you got something for them that they like. It's not really that they like your company, they just they just want to go on your boat or they just want to you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_02:Is that why we hang out?
SPEAKER_01:You figure that out finally?
SPEAKER_02:No, you you've only we've we've rarely used that thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know. But that's that's what that reminds me.
SPEAKER_02:I just that's funny. That's a good example. I I get what you're saying. I yeah. Yep. All right, where am I at? We are in verse 20 30. Oh no. Why do I keep losing my spot here? Oh, because we're all over the map.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. 31. After all, our ancestors ate mana while they journeyed through the wilderness. The scriptures say Moses gave them bread from heaven to eat. Jesus said, I tell you the truth. Moses didn't give you bread from heaven, my father did, and now he offers you the true bread from heaven. The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. Sir, they said, Give us that bread every day. Jesus replied, I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again, whoever believes in me will never be thirsty, but you haven't believed in me even though you have seen me. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will, and this is the will of God that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. For it is my Father's will that all who see his son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day. I want to point something out that I this is kind of a big a big fault of mine. You know, I went through a pretty long phase of being I don't know, I guess rejectful would be the right word. I was kind of rejecting the idea of God.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And one of the ways that I did that was my wife's family likes to pray and thank God for food when they sit down to eat. Okay. One of the ways I did that was literally thinking to myself, God didn't put this food on the table, Bernie did. Or whoever did. I made this food. It wasn't God. Right. And I tell I I don't I tell you what, I I thank God now. I do. And I don't really I don't really know why I did that. It was kind of spiteful of me to do it, to be honest with you. But when I read this, when I read this verse, I was like, yeah, that was me. Which verse?
SPEAKER_02:The one where they're like, Moses gave us bread from heaven.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I tell you the truth.
SPEAKER_02:Moses didn't give you the bread from heaven. My father did. I had I had highlighted that too. That's you know, that's pride. That's human pride. The Jews were proud, like the Jews followed Moses. And this is actually a great that that's one of the biggest tells that the crowd gives, that they don't, you know, they aren't really. The biggest tell is they asked for a sign for him to prove that he is who he says he is. But the second tell is when they're like, Well, Moses gave us this, and Jesus is like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Jesus works for for my father. He wasn't the one who did this. Moses worked. Yeah, what I said. You said Jesus. Oh, yes. Moses works for my father. He didn't make the bread, he didn't make the manna. The manna comes from heaven, from my father, and you need to get that right. Like I he just corrects him right there. And yeah, I think we I, you know, when we're angry with God or trying to reject him, because God pursues us, man. When we aren't in a good place with him, he will pursue us with like our conscience at times, or you know, we'll hear things that would point us to the truth and we don't like them, or any like we get uncomfortable, we get angry with God, respiteful towards God. So we want to give anything credit other than God. Um because if if we acknowledge that God is doing good things for us, then we have a harder time getting to live the way that we want to live. I think I think that's kind of a Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think you hit it right there. I don't think it could be any more accurate. No, well, that's a first. All right. No, it's not. Moving on. Yep. Verse 41. Then the people began to murmur in disagreement because he had said, I am the bread that came down from heaven. They didn't like that. They said, Isn't this Jesus the son of Joseph? We know his father and mother. How can he say I came down from heaven? I mean, I can understand how that's difficult to grasp.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Jesus spoke in he, you know, a lot of the He just he he he didn't in fact, some of the words he uses coming up are freaking wild. Yeah. But he didn't speak plainly a lot of the time. And so, you know, I could see where they said that. One thing that we didn't mention from the last part is again, it's the gospel story. I feel like that need I mean, Jesus said, who like whoever comes to me, I will raise you up at the last days. Like, you just have to believe in me. You just have to follow me. That that's your like that's it. That's all you have to do. Believe in me, and I will raise you, raise you up in the last day.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think the last day means last day of your earthly life or the last day of something else?
SPEAKER_02:I always interpret that's a good question. I really never thought about it. I've always read it as at the end of this time, arm again, like the end of the world.
SPEAKER_01:That's always the last so not not the end of an individual's human existence.
SPEAKER_02:Right. It could be very well. I don't know. That's just always the way that I've I've read it, and I've never really tried to find another angle on that. It could be, but in Revelation, it talks about all the dead come to life at the end.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So I mean, there's only one way to find out. Yeah, I'm not ready to do that. Did you ever watch the show House? No, not really. With the doctor? Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Okay, the very arrogant and drug-addicted doctor. Yes, yeah. Well, so he had a patient that said that he had a saw died, saw Jesus, said heaven's real, came back. Well, he wanted to prove that it wasn't real, so he here was his plan. He pages his he pages his intern to come into his office, and after he does that, he sticks a fork in the light socket to shock him, to kill him, to stop his heart. So but knowing his intern would find him and revive resuscitate him.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he he never does specify what he saw, but well, and it's a fictional story. It is. I just thought it was funny. There's only one way to find out the fork in the socket.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Yeah, again, you know, like we talked about at the beginning, speculating on how because there's there are questions about this, but since as far as I know, you haven't died, and I haven't died, you know, it's really hard to determine exactly what happens chronologically, how it goes. But we do know that Jesus says it is my father's will, and if his father is the creator of the universe and the most powerful being that will ever exist, that has ever existed, that exists right now. If he says that it's his will that all who see his son, if we see Jesus and believe in him, should have eternal life and he'll raise them up at the last day. I I don't know that I need to know a whole lot more than that. That's fair. You know, that's kind of my and he says that over and over again throughout his ministry.
SPEAKER_01:So at this time, did the people not know that his mother was a virgin mother? Did they not know this?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I don't know. Okay. Um, I don't know. I know you know that may have been a family secret. I I don't know. I mean, that that's that I could go down another rabbit trail, but okay.
SPEAKER_01:We've been we'll go on. We've been but Jesus replied, Stop complaining about what I said, for no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. As it is written in the scriptures, they will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. Not that anyone has ever seen the Father, only I, who has sent from God, have seen him. I tell you the truth. Anyone who believes has eternal life. Yes, I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate Mana in the des in the wilderness, but they all died. Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever, and this bread which I will offer so the world may live is my flesh. So I feel like Jesus had a little dig there against the people that said Moses fed them. Okay with the mana. I don't know. I mean I think it's manna. Because they said, Well, Moses fed us manna in the d in the in the desert. He's like, Yeah, he sure did, but you all died. Like Right. Good for you, but they all died, so what's your point? Right. Yeah. I that stuck out to me. That's something I would do. So that's funny. Just throw a little jab in there. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I feel like there's something when he they will all be taught by God. What is he implying there? Do you feel like that's important?
SPEAKER_02:Um you know, I Isaiah 54, 13 is the cross reference for that. They will all be taught by God, everyone who listens to the Father. Okay, so you you found Isaiah. Yeah, it's 54-13. So in Isaiah 54, they are describing the eternal covenant of peace. And God, through Isaiah, is going through and and talking about how Israel will change, like how everything will grow and and will, you know, flourish in a time of peace. And during that time, he says in verse 13, he says a lot of stuff, but in this he says, All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. In righteousness, and then verse for 14 goes on and says, In righteousness you shall be established, you shall be far from oppression, you shall not fear, and from terror you shall not fear, and from terror, for it shall not come near you. So basically, in Isaiah, it's talking about when they find peace, they find freedom, they find hope in all these things, which is what happens when we come to Jesus. We find peace. We we uh life isn't easy, right? But in the midst of turmoil and trouble, we have peace because we know how it ends, because we know that God has our back, and we have wisdom to, you know, like we have peace when we come to Jesus, and so that's kind of the basic, basic idea behind when when Jesus references that particular verse. I also find it interesting, like the way that Jesus uses scripture in his present time to you know explain what's going on around him is a great example of how we can study the Bible as well. You know, I what's the word that they use? There's a fancy churchy word for that type of Bible study. I can't remember what it is. Catechism? No, pancake knows it. It starts with an E. Exodus. No. No. Oh, it's gonna drive me. I'll find I'll remember it as soon as we're done.
SPEAKER_01:I'm sure with this, but I'm gonna keep going. Yeah, keep going. Verse 52. Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. How can this man give us his flesh to eat? They asked. So Jesus said again, I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you. But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. I live because of the living Father who sent me. In the same way, anyone who feeds on me will live because of me. I am the true bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will not die as your ancestors did, even though they ate the mana, but will live forever. Another little jab. He said these things while he was teaching in the synagogue in Capernam. They think he's a vampire.
SPEAKER_02:I I struggle with like how they're taking him literally.
SPEAKER_01:Like how could you possibly take him literally? Like you take him seriously, but not literally. Like, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Right. Well, you gotta realize that they didn't have metaphor. Yeah, they didn't know he was gonna die. Like they didn't know he was gonna be crucified. Right. They had they had no idea what he was talking about, or even how that would like look spirit. Like we've been reading, you know, we live in in a world that has already been impacted by Jesus, and you know, it's uh so is T we we've taken communion forever and and and done those things, but this concept to them, I I like why did he say it that way to them? Like you know what I mean? Like, why would you tell someone you need to come eat my skin and drink my blood? Like it like, did he not anywhere in there give any more did he elaborate on that, or was this literally all he said in this moment? Because I don't know, it wouldn't have made any sense whatsoever to me. I would have been like, he can't possibly be telling me I need to take a bite out of him right now. I mean, seriously, you know, because that's what he was saying, and he sounded like a crazy person. Yeah, he probably did. No, he did. If if I if if a guy came in here and he was the Messiah and he started saying, Eat my flesh and drink my blood, and gave no other right, you know, like like I want to know what else was said in that, assuming there was something else said, because the way he it makes sense now. Do you think that he do you think that it was a test? I think that I yes, I do. I think that in fact, last week when you guys talked about him healing the the lame man, I think that was a test too, not for the lame man, but for the the Pharisees and whoever was there. He was testing them to see what there was in their hearts. Were they gonna celebrate a guy that was healed, or were they gonna be angry because he broke the law? Right, you know, worried about that instead of I think everything, even Jesus even tested Philip earlier in the feeding of the five thousand. It actually says he tested him. So I I think, yeah, in some ways, uh Jesus is really trying to confound and confuse the Jewish leaders in the way that he speaks. He doesn't speak that way always to the peasants.
SPEAKER_01:It's almost like what he's saying. If if I had, I don't know, try to imagine being in his shoes, which obviously I can't, but it's it's almost like he's saying it in that that way because he knows the people that are truly going to follow him will get what he's saying. And the ones that aren't gonna be true followers, they won't get what he's saying. Which they didn't, right.
SPEAKER_02:But I mean, just from a fleshly standpoint, if if someone said those things, like who would get that? Yeah, I I don't like to me, maybe maybe I maybe this is a sign that I need to, you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:We we need someone to explain it to us in a way that we can understand.
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah. I mean, Jesus, when he spoke with the Nicodemus, he talked about being born again, and Nicodemus is like, does that mean I have to go back into my mom's womb? Like, I don't think that's gonna happen. Again, took him literally instead of seriously. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. That whole section, I just imagined being there listening to that, and I think that I. Would this guy's nuts? Yeah, I don't know. Like, I would just, you know, I always imagine Jesus and rightfully so, as a great teacher, as the son of God who came down, who was both man and God at the same time, and you know, was worth following and was a great guy. But then he says stuff like this, and I'm like, this doesn't, it just it doesn't make sense. Now, granted, what he meant was that we at the very beginning of John, Jesus, you know, it says in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. So if he is the word, the living word, and he's also the living bread, and he's the water of life, he, you know, Jesus has now been defined three different ways as as things we need. We need we need water, we need bread, we need light, which he talks about later on, and then he's the word. So Jesus is defining himself as all these things that are required for life. So there is that, but in that moment, before the crucifixion, I don't know that anyone would have got that. And the only people that probably would have stuck with Jesus after that are those that could see his heart, and and maybe that's why he did that. I don't know. Yeah, actually, I think I just answered my own question.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Kind of weed him out a little bit. Yeah. All right, verse 60. This we're about to the end here. Many of his disciples said, This is very hard to understand. Yes, it is. Yes. How can anyone accept it? Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining, so he said to them, Does this offend you? Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again? The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. That's really important. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life, but some of you do not believe me. For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn't believe, and he knew who would betray him. Then he said, That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me. At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. Then Jesus turned to the twelve and asked, Are you go are you also going to leave? Simon Peter replied, Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the holy one of God. Then Jesus said, I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil. He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the twelve who would later betray him. End of chapter six. Yeah, pick it apart. I don't know that we have time to do all that. Well, what's the one important part you want to point out there?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so one of the big things that stood out to me was verse 63, and you pointed it out too, that the spirit alone gives eternal life, and that human effort accomplishes nothing. Now, this is a uh it's a pretty basic theology, but it's so important. Like we I've spent a lot of time in church over the years, and and I'm not knocking anyone that goes to church because I think that's super duper important. It's one of the three main ways that God speaks to us, helps us, and keeps us on the path. So being in church is really important. Pancake actually mentioned that last week. I always considered it part of the three-legged stool. If it's missing one leg, the stool doesn't stand up anymore. You know, so you have the Bible, you have the Holy Spirit, and you it with prayer, and then you have church, your community, yeah, your fellow believers that you that that can teach and all that. So those are that's a three-legged stool. What does that have man? What does that have to do with what I was talking about? I dude, oh I'm falling apart here. So the spirit gives the spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort, this oh, this is basic theology. Yeah. So we can't ever do enough, we can't ever be good enough, we can't ever earn enough points to get into heaven. And this is a this is the biggest difference between Christianity and every other relation or every other religion in the world, right? Is that Catholicism, Muslims, Hindus, like they all have a list of do's and don'ts, and you have to do more do's than don'ts in order to achieve whatever the goal is of that role. Christianity is the opposite of that. It says that human effort does nothing, you can't do anything at all on your own to earn eternal life. There is nothing you can do that's going to make God love you more or less. God loves you, He sent His Son to die for you. There is no, like, it's not like, well, I'm gonna love you as long as you do this bake sale fundraiser at your church for orphaned kids, you know, versus I'm not gonna love you as much because you spend six nights at the bar. You know, there is no difference. God loves everybody, and it's not based on what we do, it's based on who we are, and who we are is a created person by God.
SPEAKER_01:You know, have you seen the movie? I know I'm using a lot of movie references. That's right. The movie Fury with Brad Pitt. I have not yet. Great movie, but there's a part where they're riding on the tank, and and the the one the one soldier in the crew, he's a Christian, knows the Bible in and out, and they kind of give him crap for that every now and then. But the one asks him, Do you think Jesus loves Hitler? And his response was, Well, I'd assume so. And if he would sincerely repent, he'd probably have a place in heaven too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah. Yeah, I I we cannot earn salvation by being good. That's that's probably the greatest. That's that's a scandalous gospel, is what that is.
SPEAKER_01:But we do you think on the flip side that we can lose salvation by not being good?
SPEAKER_02:That is an excellent question that I don't know the answer to. I know I'm not a lot of help here.
SPEAKER_01:I'm supposed to No, it's fine. Um I can see how you can believe that Jesus is the savior and and and he is God is our Father, and yet still live a life that goes against his will. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I would imagine that's few and far between, but so there are several different schools of thought, and I have listened to them all, and I haven't come up with a definitive answer that I feel comfortable like backing. I I can't what I'm about to say is my opinion. It's it's not there's I don't know the answer to it. On one side of the equation, Jesus talks about in one of the the gospels, the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which basically, from my understanding, means that when you reject the Holy Spirit's prompting in your heart, like that's the only unf like when when the Holy Spirit's like you need to believe in God and you choose not to, that's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That's the only unforgivable sin. Now, granted, if you I I obvio you know, if you change your mind and you're like, okay, I surrender, I there's I have a great song, not I surrender, not to him, but there's another great song about that. But when you say I surrender, I you are Lord, I will do what you say, then obviously you have corrected that wrong. And then once so then there's no other sin that can't be forgiven. So on the one hand, there's the camp that says once saved, always saved. You know, once once you've been granted eternal life, nothing can take that away. On the other side of the equation, it talks about, you know, if Paul mentions it many times in the book of Paul. There's no book of Paul. You were trying to trick me. Paul talks about it many times where he says, I would hate to run the race. I would hate to do this and then come up short. And Jesus talks about it. In fact, I shared this verse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Jesus talks about it. And I shared this verse with you and Kyle yesterday. Many will stand before God at the end and say, Well, you know, Lord, Lord, we did all these things in your name. We believed in you. And Jesus says, Depart from me, I never knew you, which indicates to me that there's a relational aspect. God, Christianity is all relationship. It is not rules. When you fall in love with your savior, when you desire to make your father in heaven happy, I believe that's the healthiest relationship you can have on this earth. That's a that's the best place you can be. Now, can you fall out of that? I don't know. I I really don't know. Some people would argue that if you fall away after you claim to believe, you never you were never saved in the first place. So that's an argument as well. I you can you can believe which way you want. That is a good argument, though, if you think about it. It is, it is. There's great arguments on both sides, and there's scripture to back up both sides. At the end of the day, this is more speculation, and you know how I feel about speculation. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because if you know what you're supposed to do, and if you know how you're supposed to live, and you know what it takes to find eternal life, to know God and be in that relationship, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because if we did what we know we were supposed to do, then we could worry about knowing more about what we don't understand. But as long as we have all these things we know we're supposed to do and we aren't doing them, sometimes we get wrapped up in details because it distracts us from, oh, I am supposed to give everything I have to follow the Lord. And we don't want to do that. So we like get into these theological that's just my opinion again.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I get that. But uh I mean I totally understand. I mean, I'm a I'm a details guy. I ponder the smallest of details until it keeps me awake, you know. All right, I don't know if that's a feature or a flaw, but it's it's good, it's good to have questions.
SPEAKER_02:God's not afraid of our questions, ever, ever. I I just I don't know. I don't have the energy to to do it like I used to. I don't either. I can't help it. I just can't help it. It's uncontrollable. So I heard a I heard a pastor once said that if if how does he put it? He says, the the problem in the Christian church is not that we don't know enough, it's that we don't do enough of what we already know. Ooh, I like that. Yeah, that's Mark Batterson said that. Nice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Very cool. That's it. That's all we got. That's a bookmark saying right there. Yeah. All right. That was that was a long one for today, but I I thoroughly enjoyed it. I did. It was good. What was your biggest takeaway?
SPEAKER_02:What was what's the like looking at the whole chapter? I know that we're running long. That's okay. I don't mind. I don't mind.
SPEAKER_01:I'm just worried about someone needing in here, but oh it's 11 right now, but that's my my biggest takeaway of the chapter. So, what does this chapter say about who God is?
SPEAKER_02:That's my question.
SPEAKER_01:He's a generous God.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:It's very true. He's he he's generous. Okay. Man, you're putting me on the spot here, bud.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we can't he's generous. That is one attribute of God.
SPEAKER_01:Here, here's actually I'm glad you asked because that prompts me to do something next time I read, because I read that chapter, dude, multiple times. And I never once stopped to ask myself, what is one thing I take away from this chapter? And I think that's a good thing to do.
SPEAKER_02:It's those three questions. So if God is generous, what what did you learn about humans? Like, how do you like where do you sell see yourself in the non-Jesus camp? Like, what did this chapter speak to you about you? Like, what where were you reflected in the thing?
SPEAKER_01:I am of the camp that probably takes for granted God's blessings way too often. I'm probably throwing away the leftovers instead of picking them up, putting them in taperware, putting them in the fridge, and then letting them go back.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay. My biggest takeaway was that God and Jesus. I don't know. I knew I I knew I was gonna have to answer this question, and I didn't really come up with a well, you don't have to. I didn't ask you. Well, that's true. That's true. God is generous, God cares about the small things in our life, you know, from the feeding of the 5,000 to the walking on water. And if you read the other chapters, the way he deals with Peter and then gets the boat across, and the way then that he spends time talking to people who don't believe.
SPEAKER_01:Like he just cares about the little things. Right. Like the small donation from the young boy. I mean, it could be that could be talking about prayer too. I mean, I would assume. I mean, two minutes of prayer versus 200 minutes of prayer. I mean, either one's better than none. Right? Yeah, it's just like working out.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. What's that? So, and then what does this reveal about me? I think I am in the like, okay, God, you you fed me once, and I'm gonna follow you. Now I want you to feed me again. I want you to show me another sign. I need you to do more for me. The 12 disciples that stuck by his side, they were there because they I like I say, I, and this is again speculation, but they were there because they saw his heart. Simon Peter says, Where else would we go? There's nobody better, I think is what he was implying. Yeah, where else could we possibly go to get what we're getting here with you? And it wasn't material stuff, it wasn't physical stuff, it was they they knew who Jesus was. And uh so often I find myself seeking God's hand instead of his heart. You know, like I want the things that God can do for me, I want him to restore my marriage, or I want him to get me a better paying job, or I want him to re remove my stress in whatever the situation is, instead of pursuing God's heart and saying, God, when I pray, what is it that would make you happy? What can I do for you? And so I see myself in in that I see myself in the in the masses.
SPEAKER_01:When Jesus told the twelve disciples that one of them was the devil, obviously he did it on purpose, but I think he did it to make them introspective on what where the where they stood with him. Yeah. They probably went home and was like, Am I am I the devil? Right. Like, do I truly believe? Am I doing what I am supposed to do?
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Am I listening and following like I'm supposed to follow? Right. I think he did that to make them really, really think about their position. Possibly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Possibly. I you know, sometimes was it in it was let me make a pop culture reference. In the matrix, when they go to see the old lady, what's her name? What do they call it? The Oracle. The Oracle. Thank you. And she goes, You you know, when you're in love, you don't need anyone to tell you you're in love. You just know that you know that you know balls to bone, is how she puts it. And uh, so I think some of those guys might have gone home and been like, I know that I know that I know that I'm gonna follow Jesus, that I am not the devil. So it could be both. I mean, you're you're very you're very true, but I think that when we know who G, we know that we know that we know. I believe that we can all reach that point. At times we're gonna have doubts and and questions, but we can I think that that's I think that that's a place that we can get to. So cool.
SPEAKER_01:I do too.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:All right, let's finish up with a prayer. Since you started, I'll finish. Sweet. Heavenly Father, thank you for this wonderful morning to get to sit here with John and read your word. I learned so much from John when we do this. His intelligence is leading me to learn more about you, and I cannot be more grateful. Lord, please help guide those others that are just beginning on this journey. Take their hand and and and lead the way so that they may find you and build a relationship with you. In your name I pray. Amen. Amen. All right. Thank you, everybody, and we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening.