John 15: The True Vine

Jesus begins his walk to the Garden of Gethsemane with his disciples and speaks of being the true vine.  We a deep discussion about how God picks us up when we need it and the difference between Godly sorrow and worldly sorrow. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome friends to Process of Faith. Here, we don't just study the Bible, we live it. One step at a time. This is about the raw, real journey of discovery. We unpack verses that hit like lightning, wrestle with questions that keep us up at night, and celebrate those aha moments that remind us God's story is still unfolding in ours. Whether you're a lifelong believer, a curious seeker, or somewhere beautifully in between, grab your Bible and your listening ears and join us. You're not alone on this path. Let's walk it together. Welcome to the process.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

It doesn't suck. I don't know why you hate iPhones so much. I don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I just like I like stirring the pot. You do.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

I like stirring the pot.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Like a little old witch. Uh-oh. Power's out.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Did we just lose light? Where would that have come from?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

We're being attacked. It's in the hallway, dude. Oh, it's weird that it made that much difference in here. Makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Yeah, it feels kind of like creepy in here now. Like a lot of light. So, anyways, I'm flying by the seat of my pants here.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Okay. Should we get started? You know, I'll be honest with you, John. I was a little surprised you showed up today.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Are we recording?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Okay. Yeah, well, you know, I I was debating whether or not I wanted to do this anymore, so I wasn't for context.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

John stood me up two weeks ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Was it two weeks ago? It was last week.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

No, last week was spring break, so it was two weeks ago.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Oh. Well, we had rescheduled it for a Friday instead of a Thursday.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah. And I sat here, everything set up. I'm like, huh, he must be a little late. He's not in his office. Where's John?

SPEAKER_03 2:19

I was sleeping.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

I completely forgot that we were meeting on Friday.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

It's okay. I forgive you.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

I'm not even mad about it.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

I actually completely forgot about that it happened in the first place. So Wow. I know.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

What uh what a my feelings not important?

SPEAKER_03 2:36

I should probably sit up here by the mic, huh?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Ah, you talk loud enough it picks you up.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

What are you trying to say, buddy? No, I have a joke. I have a question for you.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

How can you tell if there is an elephant in bed with you?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

I've heard this one. You said it. Because your nose is touching the ceiling.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

No.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Oh, that's if it's under the bed.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Right. If it's under the bed, you'll know because your nose is touching the ceiling. But how do you know if the elephant is in bed with you?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Can't breathe. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

There's an E on his pajamas. That's so stupid. It should be funny. I know. It's horrible. Oh, good grief. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

E on his pajamas.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Yeah, it's the E that gives it away.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Alright, I have one for you. Okay. How does the moon cut his hair? Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

I don't know how how.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Simple. Eclipse it.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

He eclips it. Ah. Well played. Thank you. That's not my joke. Well played, sir. That's a good one. My kids will like it.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

I think so. Yeah. Okay. We are on John 15. Yes?

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Uh yes. That's what the general consensus is.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

I do want to say I have a little bit of a PSA. Public service announcement.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Public service agreement.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Announcement.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Announcement.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

This just something I've noticed that I'm sure. I mean, it affects me. I'm sure it gets everyone at times. This last week, I have been extremely busy with work. Okay? Not making any excuses, just saying how it is. So you're busy with work, you're doing stuff all day, you got family stuff. And then when you do get a little free time, the thing you want to do is sit down or watch TV or do something for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

And I have found myself not avoiding the Bible or praying or God's word, but just not involving myself with it enough. I mean, there were a couple days when I didn't read anything. And I don't know, I always feel better after I read, but it's so easy for me to just be like, I want to do this for myself because I've been so busy and I've done all this stuff. And I don't know. I've just been thinking about it. It's just kind of a reminder that sometimes we keep putting ourselves first, even though we try to put God first. It's just so easy for it to slip away. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 5:37

That's a good example. Yeah. You aren't the only person that's ever done that.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

No, I know that. But but it's it it was on my mind because I just I noticed it. And I just wanted to point it out because maybe maybe people don't like I didn't notice it right away. So maybe people don't notice it right away, and they find themselves, you know, letting it slip away because other things might become more important that are not important.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Like it's not that important for me to sit down on my butt on the couch and watch TV or you know, whatever it is I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's it's kind of like the gym, right? Yeah, like you have you worked 14 hour 12, 14 hour day, you haven't been to the gym in four days, and you're tired and you want to sit down and eat some rice crispy treats and watch Stranger Things or whatever, and but you know your body's like, I need to move, and you're like, I don't really, but once you go and do it, then you you know, then you feel a hundred times better than you would have if you didn't do it at all, right? So obviously spending time with the Lord is very much like that, although the gym is very trivial in comparison to spending time with the creator of the universe. Correct. On the flip side, though, if we are reading the Bible and praying and doing our studying just to mark off a check on a checklist, then we're not really doing it for the right reason either. So, but the the way that you you know described that, you're like, I, you know, you weren't trying, you weren't trying to read the Bible just to check off a checklist, Mark. You're you're doing it because you want to know the the creator of the universe, the God who made us, the God who loves us, and the God who sacrificed his fun for us. So there's nothing religious about that. But we can get caught in the religious trap if we become so rigid in that that we suddenly feel like we aren't Christians anymore if we don't, you know, right check the chat box.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

I guess the the big thing when I don't spend time reading the Bible and setting aside time to pray instead of like so many times I catch myself, well, I'm driving to work, I'll pray as I drive to work. And I think I think it's important to also set aside time where you're not doing anything else, you're not distracted by anything else, and you can put 100% of your focus in speaking to God.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

100%.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

And I notice when I don't do that, to me, it has nothing to do with a checklist of do's and don'ts.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

But I find myself almost drifting away from him a little bit, you know, kind of like he wants a relationship. If you don't talk to a friend in a while, you might start drifting away from them a little bit, or a family member or whatever the case may be. Communication is important in our relationships here on earth. It's just as important, if not more, to communicate with God.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Well said. So I don't know. I for anyone that might catch themselves doing that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

I'm guilty. You're calling me out, bro.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Someone has to.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

I I I need it.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Okay. John 15. This was kind of an emotional chapter for me. I really liked it, but it was kind of an emotional chapter for me.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Let's do this backwards. So you've already read it.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Well, yes, but I have we should probably pray first, but I had another idea, but I'll hear yours first.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Okay. Well, should we pray first?

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah, let's pray first.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

Okay. Do you want to do the honors?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

You want to Sure, I can do it. Heavenly Father, thank you for everything that you give us. The beautiful days, the beautiful sunsets, the time to spend in your word, our families, everything. Thank you, Lord. Lord, I pray that you give us wisdom today to understand what it is you're trying to teach us. I pray that somebody somewhere who needs to who needs to have their eyes opened or needs to hear their word or just needs a nudge towards you gets this message today. That is why we do this. We're doing this to try to spread your word and bring just one more person to you. Lord, I pray that you do that for us today. Help us out. Give us the wisdom and guide us. In your holy name we pray. Amen. Amen. Good prayer. Thank you. Okay. What was your idea?

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Well, I was going to ask. Normally at the end of the chapter, after we're done going through it, you know, we we ask what each other the big takeaway is, but it sounds like you already have a big takeaway from the chapter.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

I do, I feel like that might be a spoiler, though. Why?

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Because people have never read this book. Yeah, it's brand new.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

No one's ever We just wrote it. Okay, we can do that. And then I had another idea. Yes, yeah. First, my big takeaway is how do I want to put this? It takes a lot for God to turn his back on you. A lot. And honestly, it doesn't take as much as you think to bring him back into your life. That's my big takeaway.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

So, what's your big takeaway?

SPEAKER_03 11:26

I am gonna be really honest with you. I haven't read this for a while, so I don't have one at the moment on John 15. I am shocked. Dude, I am a hot mess. Hot mess. I reread the end of John 14, you know, to prepare, and then I text you, and you're like, you know, we're in John 15, and I was led that I couldn't get to it. So I don't really have one yet, but I'm sure something will continue as we go here.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Well, I know that we finished John 14 because verse 27 is one of my favorite verses.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

I am leaving you with a gift. Yeah, my gift peace of mind and heart, and the peace I give is a gift the world cannot give. So don't be troubled or afraid. Yep. Yeah. Anyway, here's my idea. What if it's a short chapter? Okay. What if we just read straight through the chapter and then come back to the I like that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

I prefer to do it that way, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

All right, let's do it that way.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Seems to keep everything in context better.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

I'm gonna read through verse 17 and then you can take over.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Okay, so before so where we left off, Jesus was talking to his disciples. We're still in the upper room.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

But it's after the supper.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

It they're still there, though, I believe. He hasn't gone to the garden yet.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

They they were just leaving.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

All right. Just leaving. They're walking to the garden.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Okay, and he's still talking to just his disciples, like his inner circle. Correct. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Okay. Jesus teaches about the vine and the branches. I am the true grapevine, and my father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit, so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. Yes, I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing, and anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned, but if you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted. When you produce much fruit, you are my true disciples. This brings great glory to my Father. I have loved you even as the Father has loved me, remain in my love. When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father's commandments and remain in his love. I have told you these things, so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow. This is my commandment. Love each other in the same way I have loved you. There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you slaves, because a master doesn't confide in his slaves. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me. You didn't choose me, I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. This is my commandment. Love each other.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

That's really good. All right, verse 18, it says Jesus says, If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first. The world would love you as one of its own if you belong to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you. Do you remember what I told you? A slave is not greater than the master. Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you. They will do all this to you because of me, for they have rejected the one who sent me. They would not be guilty if I had not come and spoken to them. But now they have no excuse for their sin. Anyone who hates me also hates my father. If I hadn't done such miraculous signs among them that no one else could do, they would not be guilty. But as it is, they have seen everything I did, yet they still hate me and my father. This fulfills what is written in their scriptures. They hated me without cause. But I will send you the advocate, the spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will testify all about me. And you must also testify about me because you have been with me from the beginning of my ministry. End of John 15.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Good chapter. And we're done. Thanks for listening, guys. Everyone. Bye. See ya. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

Perfect. Well, we're not gonna make it any I mean, it's not gonna get any better than that. So we're all downhill from here.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna do our best, though.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Okay, in the beginning, I am the so I'm reading out of the NLT. There are some differences in the NKJV or I think ESV also that I think are important. So I'm gonna highlight those.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

I am the true grapevine, my father is the gardener. It says something different about in NKJV, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Yeah, it says instead of grapevine, it says the true vine, and my father is the vine dresser.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Vine dresser. Same thing. I think true, the true part of the vine is important, though. He's not just the vine, he's the true vine.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

I am the true vine. And it says that in the NLT too. I am the true grapevine. Yes. What does that mean though? Like what does that mean to you when you hear him say, I am the true vine?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Well, when I hear that, I I think, you know, he is the one true God. No other gods should come before him. Right. So isn't it and I think it was in Jeremiah and I think Isaiah, where they talk about Israel being the vine.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Yeah, somewhere in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

He's they talk about it being being Jesus' vine that went wild, grew wild, and he took away the the hedges and walls, and I think it was Isaiah.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Could be. I don't remember. I know roughly what you're speaking of.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

So anyway, some of this kind of goes back to to Israel, but now it's for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Right. I find it interesting that he that he specifies that he is the true vine. It's almost like he's saying there are there are going to be other vines that look like grape vines, that look like there's a promise there, that looks like there's a hope there, but they are not.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah, and that is Jesus. Yes. Okay, this is where it gets good. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruits, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit, so they will produce even more. In NKJV, he says, I think it says he takes away every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit. Correct? He cuts off every branch. Oh no, whoops. I'm reading both. Number verse 2. He takes away every branch, doesn't it? Yes. He takes away every branch. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. Okay, so the the Greek word that would have been there, arrow a I R O, it actually means it's a verb to lift up. So this is where it's kind of starts to get emotional for me. He doesn't just take away that branch. He sees someone that is ne in need of him and he lifts them up in order to bring them closer to him. He doesn't turn his back.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

So when it says, now this is something I've never heard before. So he says, Every branch of me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. But you're saying every branch of me that does not bear fruit he lifts up? Yes. Okay, and and you're interpreting that as him for example, with me, okay?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Okay, I had turned my back against God for many years. I ignored him, I denied him, and he didn't throw me away like a useless branch. He didn't prune me then, but he picked me up. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

Yes, he did. And it's been wonderful to watch it happen.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Um so when we see, when we see great, and this is some of this is regurgitated from another pasture I listened to, but when we see grapes growing, we see all the big trellises, and they're usually about five feet high or whatever, and they're growing up off the ground. Back in those days in Israel, the grapes would actually grow on the ground. And then the gardener would come by and he would see branches that are starting to produce fruit on the ground, and in order to protect them, he would put a stone under them to get them off the ground, or a small branch with uh maybe a Y in the end of it in order to act as a pedestal to hold them up as the gardener goes through and picks them up off the ground. And that is what God did to me and to many other people. He walked by and he picked me up. He didn't just throw me away.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Right. So why does it say throw me away in these translations then?

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I don't know. Later it does talk about throwing away a useless branch, and I think that's a little bit about you know, I think he's vaguely speaking about hell and Eternal damnation. Right. But I I don't think those two verses are the exact same.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Right. Now, my question is, or my interpretation when I read this, and you can, you know, you you did a lot more diligence, due diligence on this than I have before this conversation. He says, every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. I think the the key phrase there, uh, like the uh not the key phrase, what's the word I'm looking for? He says, every branch in me. Which verse is that? That's verse two. It's in I'm reading the NKJV right now. Because in verse two, he says, He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn't produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit, so they will produce even more. So the pruning part of this is a painful thing. I mean, pruning is cutting.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, you might lose some good things in order to have, you know, they don't always get rid of all the bad things.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

They don't always cut off just dead, dead twigs and dead leaves, they cut off healthy ones too, to make room for better, right, more fruitful growth. But the takeaway part, the cutoff part, he is referring the way that I read this, he is saying, I cut off every branch of mine. Every uh in the NLT or the NKGV NKJV says, every branch in me that does not bear fruit, he takes away. So until we come to know the Lord, are we in Jesus? Until we've given our lives to him, until we've made him Lord of our lives, are we in him?

SPEAKER_00 23:48

No, but I guess I'm I'm thinking back to that the Greek word.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Right. And the Greek word is arrows.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Arrow, a i R A I R O It means to lift up or to pick up.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

And that is what was they used arrow to translate to take away. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

For whatever reason. But it yeah, I don't know. I I wish I knew Greek and Hebrew, and I wish I had better knowledge of that.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

But any other defin like translations of arrow? Could it mean more than one thing?

SPEAKER_00 24:27

I don't think so. I looked it up and that's all I saw. Okay. I mean, maybe, but that's all I saw. Okay. So I don't know. I I I don't I I don't see verse two and verse you know six. What is it? I don't see them being the same. Verse six is anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a use useless branch, and withers such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

Why don't you see them as the same?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Because I think there's a big difference between somebody who has a hardened heart who is completely unopen to God, and someone who just needs a little bit of a nudge or help up. I think there's a big difference there. I don't think it's black and white. I think there's a big gray area in the middle where someone just needs a helping hand, and that's where God steps in.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Absolutely. God gives us grace and his mercy is incomparable. Unfathomable. I be, I mean, the biggest word that you can think of. It does have an end. There is an end to his mercy. We haven't experienced it yet as a as a human population, but his mercy is amazing. I mean, God is good and he is a good father, and he is patient and wants none to perish. He he's he's waiting, he's hope his goal is for everyone to come to know him and be saved.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

So maybe another analogy to this would be, you know, I said, you know, back then the grapes would grow in the ground, so the gardener would come and he would see the good branches and pick them up.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

Right. These are people that are already attached to the vine, though.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

I'm still talking about grapes right now.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

Okay. I'm okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

It's okay. We'll we'll get there.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

My brain is three steps ahead of where you're at.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

The gardener comes by, he sees he sees a vine that's starting to produce fruit, he picks it up so it can grow and be fruitful, right? Right. I think that in this verse, God comes and picks up all of the branches so they have the opportunity to produce fruit.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Okay, yes. He does.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Okay. And so then the ones that do produce fruit get pruned. But the opportunity is there, the helping hand and the nudge is there.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

100%.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Okay. Makes sense? Yes. Then after that, the ones that still will not produce fruit get cut off and pruned and withered and died.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

That makes a lot more sense.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Does that help? Yes. Okay. That took me a while to get there. Yes. Sometimes I have to go in circles and back and forth and zigzag.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

I feel like that's a better representation of what Jesus is trying to describe, at least from the way that I read the the scripture. I mean translations we're reading. Yes. Yeah, Jesus God is God didn't set us out on a journey or an adventure or point us to a new life without the tools that we need to succeed in that life. He didn't, he didn't. It'd be like really, this is probably a bad example, but it's the first thing that popped into my head. It's like when my dad was teaching me to swim and he just threw me off the end of the dock into the water, but he didn't give me a life jacket, he didn't throw a rope, he didn't do anything else, and he never got in the water with me. This didn't actually happen. I'm just picking this picture. I was like, I could see that happening. Yeah, you know, Steve was uh he was a guy. Uh that didn't actually happen, but that would be that sometimes it feels like that's what God does to us. He throws us in the deep end, and then you know, we just have to figure it out or sink or swim. Yeah, that isn't the way that that works. You know, he may throw us in the deep end, but we have the Holy Spirit, we have the word, we have, we have fellowship. God doesn't his grace and his mercy are there to help us through it. So yeah, God doesn't set us up for failure when He when He lifts us up off the ground, He gives us every opportunity to be a fruitful part of that vine, but we have a responsibility while we're you know when we're with Him or in Him to obey His commandments, to produce fruit. We can't always control the fruit that's produced, but we can control what we choose to do and what we choose to listen to and how we choose to act in the world that we live in.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

100%.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Ten minutes later, we're just getting off of verse two.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

That's fine. We already read the whole, we already read it, so we're just going through what stood out, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Go ahead. You grab the next topic you want to discuss here.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

All right. So let's see, you're already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. So in verse three, he says, We've been pruned and purified by the message. We've heard the truth, we've accepted it, we believe it, we've been forgiven, we're clean, we're pruned, we're off to a good start, right? And then verse four, it says, Remain in me and I will remain in you. Jesus is again promising that he's not gonna leave us, that he is with us. You stay with me, I'm gonna stay with you. The only way that our relationship with God ever gets broken is our choice.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Our our doing, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Yeah, he doesn't leave. He's like, if you do this, I promise I'm gonna be here. If you don't remain in me, I I mean, I'm you know, he's a gentleman, he's gonna let us go do what we want, whether it's good or bad for us. But uh, and then one of my favorite, one of my favorite verses, not the whole verse, but the end of verse four, it says, You cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. And the NKJV says, The branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. And you were talking, you were talking about how you've been really busy with work and some of your devotional time has like it got pushed aside for a minute. You weren't abiding in him in those moments.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

And when we live a life like that, we will not produce fruit for the kingdom of God. We we just can't. We when we do things in our own power, we're not gonna do anything that lasts. And that's a really good reminder for me. I I I was telling you that story earlier about Costco, and I'm like, hmm, now, and now we're reading this, and I'm like, okay, okay, it's all making sense now. I I have not been I have not been abiding as well as I as I should here.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

We all go through those moments. I think the important part there is repent, ask God for forgiveness, truly mean it, and you know, get back to abiding in him. Right. He knows that we're going to make mistakes, he knows that we're going to sin. It's the it's the not recognizing him and asking for forgiveness, I think that is the problem.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

I was listening to That's really good, Kyle. Thank you. I was listening to, you know, another pastor. There's this, I forget his name, but there's another podcast. It's called Cornerstone. It's a church that they do, they do basically their sermons, they put them up on on on demand on Spotify and whatnot. And their whole premise is basically kind of like what we're doing, they go through the Bible as part of their sermon, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, whatnot. And he was talking about the difference between Judah or Judas and Peter. Okay. Okay. Peter repented and asked for forgiveness. Judas, while he was embarrassed and he had regret and he recognized he did something wrong. Yes. Yeah. But he never asked for forgiveness.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

He was just he just felt bad about it. And I and yeah, we can regret something and we can feel terrible about it, we can feel guilty. But we have to take that to God. We have to say, please forgive me, I did this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

There is, I think it's in Corinthians, Paul talks about godly sorrow versus worldly sorrow. And and you're describing, I mean, Peter and Judas fall exactly into this, into these two categories. Both sorrows are real. Okay. Okay. The feeling is real. Like you feel really bad. But there's a difference. Paul says that godly sorrow produces uh repentance, which leads to life, and worldly sorrow just leads to death. But they're both real sorrows. You're very sorrowful, you're very sad, you feel really guilty, you feel whatever. You you in in church lingo, you could say, I feel I feel repentant, but that's not the same thing. Like godly sorrow and worldly sorrow are both real feelings and real places to be. So what's the difference? If it's not the feeling of sorrow, what is the difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow? Godly sorrow is when we look at what we did and we realize that we hurt the father, that we broke his heart, that we let him down, that we disappointed him. And when we realize that we did that, we aren't as worried about what's going to happen to us. We are more worried about how it's going to affect our relationship with him. We don't want to hurt him, we want him to be proud of us, right? And therefore, we make changes in this life to make God proud of us so that we can be good. Worldly sorrow can be just as spiritual, though. This is getting really deep and we're way off topic. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

I've never heard this before.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

But this is something that I I heard from a pastor that I really, really enjoy. And I use it to measure myself at times and make sure I'm good. Worldly sorrow can be just as spiritual. You might do something wrong and then be afraid. Well, now I'm gonna go to hell, or I, you know, like I'm gonna be cut off from God and I'm not gonna get God's blessings. That doesn't necessarily mean it's repentance, right? Because you're still worried more about yourself than and what's gonna happen to you, then what like how that affected God or how that affected your relationship with God. Not from the am I gonna be grounded now perspective, but am I gonna have a health, can I have a healthy relationship with God, the one I love, the one I miss, the one I want to be near.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

And accepting your punishment, whatever that may be.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Yes, yeah, because at the end of the day, the punishment isn't the biggest concern. But the consequence that that godly sorrow produces that you are concerned about is a severed relationship with the Lord. That is godly sorrow. And when we make that our priority, that creates in us a desire for repentance to change so that we can protect that relationship. And and from my under like from the way that this pastor and my belief is that godly sorrow is when we are protecting our relationship with the father, and worldly sorrow is when we are trying to protect ourselves from whether it's a spiritual problem or a physically earthly problem, you know. Both are sorrow, both feel real, both make you feel bad. But which one produces life? Are we more worried about a relationship with God or are we more worried about ourselves having to pay for a speeding ticket?

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Okay, move it on up.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

So the challenge with godly sorrow versus worldly sorrow is that Oh, we're still on that? Well, I didn't really finish.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Oh, I thought you did.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

I mean you would think I would have.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

I would have thought so, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Because I talked plenty. Uh-huh. But there is there is a there is an actionable item here that that is worth bringing up. The the the struggle that we have as Christians or as professed Christians is that it's easy to have head knowledge of God. It's easy to recognize that God exists. Because, I mean, look around you, like there's a creator. You know, there has to be. There's we have the word that, and it, and the things in the word come true, and it's pretty odd, it's pretty hard to ignore that. If you want to ignore that, I'm not gonna argue with you because you don't want to believe. And I don't have, I just won't go there. But regardless, so as Christians, we have head knowledge, and how do but how do we get like heart desire relationship with God? Like, how do we go from just knowing it up here and studying it and and reading books and reading the Bible and and listening to sermons? How do we go from absorbing information to building like an actual relationship? Because they're two different things.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

That actually, I'm glad you asked that because that plays into the next question I was gonna ask about verse six.

SPEAKER_03 38:25

Okay, well, you take the this is the action item of godly sorrow versus worldly sorrow. How do we go from head knowledge and not wanting to be wrong or bad or whatever, to being wanting to touch the father's heart, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Okay, so verse six anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned. I'm assuming he's talking about eternal judgment. I like I said, also I am very thankful to him that he did not throw me away. Okay. But what about the individuals that or maybe let let's pretend it's me. Let's pretend that I say, yeah, I believe in God, He exists, He's real. But I don't do anything to to build a relationship with Him. It is strictly just Yeah, he's God's real. He exists, but that's it. And I go on doing my fleshly things and am I thrown away at the end?

SPEAKER_03 39:37

According to this, you are.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

That was my question.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

I mean, that's if I'm just reads that way. It's exactly how it reads. Now there is so then this brings up the conversation of are we saved by faith or are we saved by what we do?

SPEAKER_00 39:56

We are not saved by what we do. No, we're not saved by works, we are saved for works.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Well said.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Well, that's not my saying, that's oh shoot, what's that guy's name?

SPEAKER_03 40:09

That's well said.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

So then we have an obligation. Uh I mean, we've been saved, we've been forgiven, but then God, you know, Jesus says like this whole verse is repeating the same idea. If you love me, obey my commandments. Those who love me will obey my commandments. If you love me, stay in the vine, where I you can produce fruit, because if you don't prove if you don't stay in the vine, you're not gonna produce fruit. The the scary implication here is that not everybody who starts off is gonna finish. Right. I mean, that's that's that's the implications that are being made that are being made here. We have talked off and on about the once saved, always saved question, like can you lose your salvation? And you know, there these verses here tell a different story than some of the other verses we've read. There's the one in is it in Romans where he says, Neither life nor death, nor nor present nor future, nor angels nor demons or anything else can separate us from the love of God. That would indicate that we cannot lose our salvation. I don't believe that if you are pursuing the Lord, number one, you've been forgiven. Your sin has been washed away. And Jesus is Jesus' sacrifice was not a cheap IKEA sacrifice that can break after you move it once or twice around the house. It's gonna stay together, right? Like it's not a cheap sacrifice.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

That's quite the comparison.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Well, I like I like to make fun of IKEA whenever I can. So, but this does raise it should raise alarms. Am I abiding in the Lord? Am I connected to the vine?

SPEAKER_00 42:03

I'd think of it like, you know, if we think of of God as our father, okay, think about your time on earth and your own father or your own mother, and you say, Yeah, I I love you, dad, or I love you, but I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna not listen to you, and I'm gonna party and I'm gonna wreak havoc and I'm gonna rob and whatever, and I'm gonna lie my butt off, and I'm gonna do drugs. Okay, you say you love me, but do you really love me because you're not listening to me? And at some point, mom or dad has to cut them off for their own good.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

Yeah. Paul says that there were, I don't remember in one of the epistles, he's talking to a church and he's talking about these two people who were causing problems in the church. And he says, I I had to give them over to Satan. He's like, I just had to let them go. Like and and Paul was completely justified in doing so. And I don't know what it means to be given over to Satan in the way that he said that, but it can't be good.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

No, it cannot be good.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

So, yes, there is I there is a there is a line where I mean we talked about hardened hearts and how sin hardens our hearts and that will separate us from God. Do we lose our eternal salvation if we had it? I don't know. I mean, there's a that that's uh this is the question for all ages.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Here's the real question Do you want to take the chance?

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah, yeah. I mean the ultimate answer is does it matter? Yeah, it doesn't because if if you if if you were to go out and preach God's grace without God's judgment, and you just went and you said God loves you so much, Jesus Jesus died on the cross to forgive you of all your sins, and you can go to heaven. You have one of two responses to that. Yeah, I mean, you have more, I suppose, but the two that I'm thinking are are one. Eternal, deep gratitude that you are now counted among the chosen. That God sent his son to die for you. Your sins have been forgiven, that you did not deserve to have forgiven. And Jesus, who is perfect, is the one who made it happen for you. And you live a life of gratitude and adoration towards God for forgiving you. If you just preach grace, we're not even talking about judgment. Just the great, just the good news. Right. The other one is you can be like, sweet, I got a clean slate. Now I'm gonna go do what I want. It doesn't really, those are our options. Those are our right, those are our two choices we made. And then there are some who don't even want to acknowledge that God exists, right? Or whatever. And they're like, that never happened, or you know, which is the third option. Historically, it's proven that it did, but regardless, right, you know, the third option is well, God's not real and I don't care. But between if if you like seriously look at it, you're like, okay, cool, my sins can be forgiven. Now I can go do what I want. Or my sins have been forgiven. I am a slave to you because you did something that I 100% did not deserve. And then your life is going to reflect what you believe. True that. So for people who get upset with people, human beings are gonna do what you want to do. So you can tell them that God forgives you and it's endless, like that his grace is in his mercy, are and he loves us so much, and all of this, and then people are gonna take that information and they're either gonna choose to follow him out of gratitude, or they're gonna choose to keep sinning because they're selfish.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

And so amend to that.

SPEAKER_03 45:47

And so when we read this, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. You're either gonna abide in God, or if you're listening, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. You're either gonna abide in God, you're gonna be grateful for what he's done for you, you're gonna see his attributes as a good father, uh as a protector, as a healer, as a provider, all the things that God is to us, and you're gonna live accordingly, or you're gonna be like, sweet, I'm off the hook. I'm going to heaven. Now I can go do whatever I want. So make your choice. It's up to you. God will let you make whichever one you want.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Yes, He will. It's the beauty of free will.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Can I let's see here? Can I no, actually, I'm gonna write in here. So, verse 9: I have loved you even as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. I think we've basically covered that. When it gets to you are my friends if you do it. No, no, I no longer call you slaves because a master doesn't confide in his slaves. Now you are my friends. Back in those times, from what I understand, being called a friend was a really big deal.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Tell me more. That's all I know.

unknown 47:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

That's so what I know, like relationships back then were a little bit more business-like master, slave, you know, soldier, peasant, blah, blah, blah. Right. It wasn't so much this is my friend. Right. They didn't have Facebook. That yeah. No. So apparently it was a it was a very big thing to be called a friend, especially from one that you called master. Then he goes on to say, I have chose you. So during Jesus' time, there was obviously there were some forced slavery, okay, but there was also volunteer servitude and bond servants, and there was another word for being a servant. What was it called?

SPEAKER_03 48:01

I don't know. I know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Anyway, uh many times the many times the the quote unquote slaves or the servants, there were opportunities that they could potentially choose their master or choose to stay with their master for life in order to keep like use it as a job. Okay. Maybe they'd pay off a debt, so they'd choose a master, ask a master to be their servant, or to dedicate the rest of their life to working for their master in order to just make a living. It was just a job. And in this case, he's telling them, you didn't choose me, I chose you. Right. And I think I I think Jesus chooses all of us if we let him. Yes. So I just thought that was really that is good.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

That that whole paragraph is so encouraging. I've told you these things so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow.

unknown 49:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

If we if we allow it.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Open our hearts and joy will overflow.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

Yes, we talked about remaining in God and godly sorrow versus worldly sorrow, but we didn't really talk about like I there was nothing really said that that gives you a reason like how can we worry more about what is what are reasons that we can that we would really love God. We didn't really talk, we just talked about the facts of it, right? But the reality is is that he loves us, he gives us his joy, he protects like the right here. Jesus is giving these these promises that really, if you believe them, are amazing. Like we can have joy. He wants us to have joy. He wants us, not I hate the word happy, I like the word joy. He wants us to have joy. And and that's just one example of of how of why, like, it's good to be with the Lord, it's just good.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

God is love, yes. You know, I I know you and Pancake might be a little indifferent on the whole near-death experience people. But there is I hate 'em.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

I'm I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Man, that was rough. There is one common denominator amongst every single one of them. Whether they, you know, are from middle of America to the Middle East to England, it doesn't matter. Every single one describes the same thing. I felt this immense love that I've never felt. There was no pain, it was just love, like a giant loving hug. They all say the same thing. I just felt immense love. And that's what Jesus can give us.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

I wonder what that feels like.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Oh, it's gotta be amazing. We'll find out one day. Yes. I hope. That's interesting. You hope. I do. I think it's I think it's fair to sit and wonder, am I I don't want to use the word committed. I I don't think that's a a proper word to use. But do I follow the way I should follow? Do I love him like I should love him? Do I truly do it because I want to love him or just because am I doing it just because I'm scared of the alternative? Or I I I think it's natural to have a lot of questions go through your head about that. And you know I I mean I've known a few people that were very, very much set, like it's going to be okay. And I don't know. I'm not that per I'm not there yet. I still question it. I don't question God, I question where I'm at with God.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Yeah. That's good. I I think so. We talked about hard hearts, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

You don't have a hard heart, just for the record.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Is it because it's easy to make me cry? I'm just a big softy.

SPEAKER_03 52:43

No, that's that's not why. No, because you care. Because this the you're like you're in the struggle, you're in the fight. You have a you have a so like what's a good example I'm trying to think of an example that our audience might be able to relate to, and I don't know if they can relate to this or not, but the thing that comes into mind is like AA, okay, or just like like being clean and sober in general. So I know guys who quit drinking. I don't necessarily that doesn't mean that they're problem, like that doesn't mean that they're clean and sober to me sometimes, but they quit drinking, right? Their head is clear, the alcohol is out of their system, or the drugs are out of their system, or whatever. And they go through a spell, a period of time where they stay sober, they protect their sobriety with everything, and then they mess up and they drink. And their entire world comes crashing down. They're like, I failed, it was a disaster. How did I let that happen? What was going through my like, and they're just completely devastated by what happened. Those guys, I don't worry about, to be really honest with you, because their heart's still in it. You know, their behavior, their action may not have been perfect. They may have done something really freaking dumb that was completely avoidable and it was whatever. But I know someone like that. Yes, yes. I am I am I am that guy on uh on the regular, but regardless, like their heart's still in it because they're like, okay, now I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to my meetings, I'm gonna call my sponsor, I'm gonna do whatever I need to do so that I can get back on the wagon and stay where I'm supposed to be. But then there are other guys who get sober and they're enjoying the benefits of life, of of sober living. They have money in their pocket, their job is going well, their marriage is going well, whatever the case may be. They're no longer they're they're SR22, they their DUI is off the record now, everything's good, and then they mess up. Same situation as the other guy. It was stupid, it was completely unavoidable, but they did it anyways, and they get up the next day and they don't feel bad about it, they don't do anything different. Those guys are the ones that I worry about because those guys aren't in the struggle, like they aren't fighting for what's good, for what's pure, for what's perfect, for something lovely. They're just going through the motions, man. They're just doing whatever they want and hoping it all works out or however. In your case, you are not doing that. Like your heart is like, and if that's the case, then you don't have to be perfect. You just have to want it. That's it. Pursue God, chase Jesus. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

I told you this chapter is emotional.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

It's a good one. It's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Man, I was as I was listening to you, I was gonna say something, and then it just kind of thrown it away.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

Yeah, I talked too much again.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

No, that's okay. I don't mind listening. Then I don't have to talk, it saves me the trouble. Yeah, I don't realize I'm talking so much. All right. Last little bit, verse 18. This is I think sometimes there needs to be a reality check with I I mean, we we kind of touched on it with the pruning of the vines that sometimes the good stuff, a little bit of the good stuff is gonna get pruned away as well in order for the really good stuff to come in. I don't know that that's really any different with sometimes the world's gonna hate you. There's gonna be some persecution in order to get to the really good stuff. Yes. Whether that's by people close to you, people that don't know you, governments, you know, whatever whatever the case is. And I know that's a really broad way of talking about things, but I mean, you can kind of take it on whatever level you want.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

Yeah, I mean, is you know, the the measurement here is is are you facing any opposition in your life?

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Are you facing opposition because of your faith?

SPEAKER_00 57:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 57:15

Okay. If you are facing opposition because of your faith, then you're doing something productive. If you are not facing any opposite opposition in your life due to your faith and your beliefs, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 57:31

You know, that while I agree with you, that is a hard concept to accept.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Especially to someone who's like myself, I don't want to say that I'm new to faith, but I'm recently rejuvenated, I should say that. Because like I said, I turned my back on God for a long time. Long time. And so a lot of times our focus might be on the people in front of us. You know? I'm listening to it. So there's opposition, but at the same time, uh we don't want to step on toes. We don't want to upset other people. Right. Okay. And I feel like in my I feel like there should be a balancing act, and I don't know, maybe there doesn't need to be. Maybe there needs to be a hard line in the sand. That's something I struggle with, and I'm sure a lot of people struggle with.

SPEAKER_03 58:33

But what do you mean? Elaborate on that for me.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

It it's it's very simple. You you maybe there's people you care about, you don't want them, you don't want to upset them, and you don't want to fracture any kind of relationship that you have with them. Right. So do you try to balance the happiness of both people, yourself or the or the direction of both people, call it what you want, or do you draw a hard line in the sand and say, no matter what, what do you do?

SPEAKER_03 59:10

So Jesus sums up all the commandments into one commandment. Love the word God with all your heart, mind, soul, and body. That's the number one commandment. And the second one is to love your neighbors as as is it love your neighbors as as yourself, as yourself, or is it love your neighbors? Yeah, or as God loved you regardless. So there is a balancing act here, and the way that my pastor really approaches evangelism, which is sharing the word, you know, like being a representative of Christ, is very relationally based. You know, back in the day you would see, and there still are, door-to-door witnessing, handing out tracks on a street corner, preaching in the park or whatever, you know, that's one form of evangelism, holding a revival tent service for a church somewhere. Those are all forms of evangelism, but a relational evangelism is recognizing the place that you have in someone's life, recognizing your position in their life, like what authority have they given you in their life, and then honoring that as you talk to them and and share with them and speak with them, you know. Like you wouldn't go up to someone in the in the grocery store who is buying a pack of cigarettes that you've never met before and say, smoking will kill you. God says you should quit. Like, where's there are those people? There are. There are 100%. And I am not saying that there aren't situations where maybe God prompted someone to go talk to that person in a really supernatural, really weird way, because God knew that that person needed to hear that message at that particular time. And so then they wouldn't do that. I'm not saying that doesn't happen or that God doesn't work that way sometimes. But in our day-to-day lives, unless you are feeling overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit that you really need to go say something to some stranger, the most effective evangelism is working within the relationships that you have. Like me and you, we could sit and talk and I could share something with you. And you you by now know that you have authority to speak uncomfortable things to me if you feel necessary, because we know we love each other because we're brothers, right? So we have like where we can really dig if we need to, or point, or you know, hold each other up, or whatever the case may be. So relational evangelism takes that into account. My chair is going crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

Oh, I was like, what is that? Knocking.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

Yeah, I just started.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:56

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

Do you have a big breakfast?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:58

I have not eaten anything yet today. But if I ate a big breakfast, I've still been sitting here for the last hour. So and it just started. So, anyway, so that's relational evangelism. So when it comes to people you are close to, I think it's fairer to say that you should be able to draw a line with them and say you've known me for however long. This is what I believe, this is what I'm gonna do. You know who I am. And it if you don't want to respect my beliefs in this area, then I'm gonna have to leave you behind in this area. I want you to come with, and I'll do whatever it takes to maintain relationship with you in every other area. But if you don't want to go with me down this road, I still have to. And it's not because I don't love you, and it's not because you're not important to me, but it's because this is the most important thing to me. That could be difficult. It'd be if the world hates you, remember it hated me first.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:07

That's it's a it's a terribly hard line. Now, do we go around drawing lines with people just so we can upset them or just to prove a point? No, that that isn't the goal. You don't walk up to someone and say, hey, I don't like the way you're living. I don't want to be part of your life anymore. And you're doing it for some selfish reason, either just to get at them or to prove that you're better or what we don't do that. That's that's if that's your heart attitude, then you need to fix your heart before you go address that with them. But if your heart's desire is, I want to honor God, I want to, I want to be a great example to these people who love who I love, and you're coming from a place of like just sincere heart with desperation and no malice, no spiteful intent whatsoever, then I would say that that boundary, that line in the sand is a healthy line. Yeah, that that that's how I would. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Fair enough. So he's Jesus spoke about basically look back, I don't remember which chapter in John it was, but he was talking about spiritual blindness. I mean, he kind of referenced it a little bit here. If they hadn't seen my miraculous signs, then they would not be guilty. Right. Basically, innocence on ignorance, yes, so to speak. Yeah. Not if you didn't know, then you don't know what you don't know. Right. But you do know what you do know, and you still made a choice, yeah, type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

Honility.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

Right. I I underlined something in here that I've told you before, there's been a few times where there's phrases or words in the Bible that's like a blinking red light to me. And this one was flashing immediately the first time I read it. What verse? 25. This fulfills what is written in their scriptures. I underlined the their. Okay. He didn't say what's written in the scriptures or what's or say what's written in the scriptures or what's written in my scriptures. It's their scriptures, and I think he's trying I I think he's highlighting a little bit the role that man played in in this world. Man's laws, man's customs, etc.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:33

Okay. Now the scripture that he's referencing there's a footnote on that. Do you know what the footnote heads to?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

Yes, I think I wrote it down. Maybe I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:45

There's a couple references in Psalms.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

Well, the footnote is just in their law. I thought there were some more notes on it, but it uh there isn't.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:55

In this one, it says Psalm 35, 19 and Psalm 69 40.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Yeah, I don't have that in my Bible. Go ahead and read them. Do you have it? Oh, I gotta go. Or part of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:05

I gotta go find it. Psalm 35, 9. So if Jesus is speaking, what they say isn't really where the uh sorry, I had an empty car in my train of thought. What those verses say isn't really my biggest concern.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Did you just say I had an empty car on my train of thought? Yes. That is hilarious. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:28

That took me a second, but that is my train of thought's cruising along and I got an empty thought, thought, thought, thought. Empty thought, thought, thought, thought. But there's that one moment there, that one cart didn't have any thoughts in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

Oh, that's funny stuff. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna steal that from you.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:49

I stole it from someone. I none of my uh funny stuff. So I don't think what those verses say is really the most important thing. I am assuming that they say something along the lines of they hated me without cause, because that's what Jesus is quoting, right? Right. So we're assuming that they say something along those lines. What you're pointing out is he he calls it their law, yeah, not the law, not his law. Right. They're calling it their law. And what you're you're the point that I think you're trying to say, or that I'm hearing you make, is that he's putting it on that. He's putting the onus on them.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:26

Like you like this is your law, own it. And so, yeah, it's a pretty pointed statement when he uses their yes, even though he's not it's not their law, it's the written divine scripture of God, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Yeah. But kind of like you know, the Pharisees, when they were so adamant about the about oh my gosh, why can't I think of the words on the tip of my tongue? The Sabbath. And they took it like to the extreme with their rules and their law. You know, they didn't interpret that, in my opinion, very well from what God said about honoring the Sabbath. What was that? I yes, I'm with you. You know what I mean? So I mean, that's what I think about is he has his divine word, and then they interpret it how they see fit and take it to a whole other level and kind of make it theirs. Yes, yeah, they can't pick up your mat and walk on the Sabbath, you can't do this on the Sabbath, blah blah blah. God never never said that. He he and they kind of made it their own with their little twist on it, and I think he's pointing that out again.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:47

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. He's talking about accountability, and then he calls them out and says, You have a choice, you can either be accountable for yourself or you can continue to hate me without just cause.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

Yeah, and and I know that there's people that are not gonna like what I say right now, but there are certain religions that kind of do that to this day. They have their own man-made laws and man-made traditions that I don't think follow scripture, at least the what I've written now. To be fair, I have not ridden ridden, read through the entire thing, but from the research that I've done and the reading that I've done, I don't find anything that supports those traditions and rules and laws. Yeah, I don't.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

Um to be really honest with you, there isn't a denomination, there isn't a church on this planet that hasn't had man's hands all over it. That's fair, that's true on some level. You know, I don't I can't remember where it's at. Is it in is it in Revelation when he talks about how church services should always have smoke machines? I can't what it's gotta be because in the end times, like all the churches seem to have smoke machines now. Yeah. There must have been something in scripture somewhere that we missed. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

It's almost like I'm starting to think that the church is starting to become this thing right in front of me. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:26

We're getting back to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Yeah. We're getting back to it. I'm referencing the Bible, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:31

Yeah, he held up his Bible.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

Uh but obviously I could be way off on that.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:35

But I it's how it feels. It it you know, the there's a prophecy in the Bible in the Old Testament somewhere where it says the darkness in the end days is gonna get greater and greater, but the light will also get greater and greater too. There, the contrast will be sharper and more distinct. The light will become more pure, the dark will get darker, and there will be less gray. And we that's good, because there's a lot of gray right now. There yeah, it's getting less and less though.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:02

All right, let's finish up. Uh, because we're already hour 15 in the but I will send you the advocate, the spirit of truth. He will come to you from the Father and will testify all about me. You must also testify about me because you have been with me from the beginning of my ministry. I wasn't real certain what that meant right there. I mean, I know he's sending the Holy Spirit, but I'm not really sure what that message was supposed to relay.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:31

In verse 26?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:33

26 and 27, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:35

When the helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth, he who proceeds from the Father, he will testify of me, and you will also bear witness because you have been with me from the beginning. I mean, in the literal sense of that, of that conversation that they're having right then, you that could be foreshadowing that they're gonna, you know, disciples are gonna write books of the Bible. That was this is a test of that they're testifying in the scripture, right? No, it's a prophecy of sorts, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I that's I don't think that's the ultimate purpose of what he why he said that, but he's telling us it actually happened, so there's that. You know, the Holy Spirit testifies of God. God is congruent in everything he says and does. He there is no double talk, there's no manipulation or anything with that. So if the Holy Spirit is God, the Holy Spirit comes, the Holy Spirit can only speak of God, it can only testify of God and of the truth, and God is truth, Jesus is truth.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

And he's saying his disciples are also going to testify about him.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:51

Yes, and I I think that that can as well be a uh commandment to us or an observation, maybe it's just an observation. We have we have experienced, we have tasted the goodness of the Lord. How can we not talk about it? Right, how can we not share it? How can we not enjoy it? How can people around us not notice that something is different because we have we have been in the presence of the creator of the Lord with clean hearts that he washed? Like, how can we not be different when we walk down the street now? We are going to testify to him, and even if we didn't, the Holy Spirit's still gonna do it. And there's a psalm that says, if no one ever spoke up, the rocks would cry out for the glory of God. So the rocks would testify to the glory of God, however it goes. So does that help?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

Yes, yeah, that helps. Perfect. I mean, I there's so much in this short chapter. There is, which is wild. But anyway, yeah, I think we've I think we got through that. Here's what I would like to say for those of you listening. I don't know about John so much, but I know that I'm still very much trying to learn and understand, and I'm sure John too on some level. If you if you have um a thought or if there's something that we didn't quite get 100% right or we got completely wrong, you know, feel free to reach out to us and tell us because then we all benefit, honestly. Yeah. Um, I kind of like to think of this as a Bible study for not just us, but our listeners too. So if you have something to add to what we've talked about, please you know leave a comment on Spotify or wherever you listen, you can send us an email at uh faithandprocess at yahoo.com, send us a text message, something, and then our next episode will bring it up and talk talk about it a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:50

But have a round table.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:52

Yeah, it only helps everybody.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:54

So fair warning though, if you send something, you may get an invite to join us for the recording. Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

We have a third microphone, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:07

Against your will, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

Yes, we will show up with a windowless white van that says free candy, and we'll blindfold you or just lure you in, and then here we are.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:18

Yeah, nope, you're asking the Bible pile. I don't I don't want this to be an echo chamber for the two of us. Yeah, that's not the that's not my desire. Right. I want perspective.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:28

All right, that's that's it for today. So next week, chapter 16. So read ahead. You could even send questions ahead of time or comments, and we'll try to intertwine them into the discussion.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

Boom.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:43

Hopefully, next week we'll be back back to recording and reading and sharing the word of God. Yes. We are not done.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:50

We scheduling is just then a thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:53

Yeah, it's been a little goofy, but we should be back to our normal schedule now, barring any unforeseen circumstances.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

You know, like a tornado or a hurricane or an earthquake. Right. We had an earthquake here not long ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:07

Yes, we did.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

Yeah, which is kind of wild. So all right, thank you everyone. John, you want to take us out on a prayer?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:14

Yes, Heavenly Father, thank you for today. God, thank you for the opportunity to just to study your word, to to share time with Kyle and learn more about you and see you for who you are. Father, I pray that that the truth of your word would penetrate our hearts and it would and it would change the way that we see you and the world and those around us. I pray that our desire for you would only deepen. And I pray that you would bless those who are listening and be with us throughout this next week. In your holy name we pray. Amen. God bless. Goodbye.