Keeping Wild Sheep on the Mountain

Wild sheep are known for their tenacity to endure some of the harshest landscapes around the world, yet the global population of the subfamily continues to decline due to a bacterium,  Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae (M. ovi). Pneumonia caused by this bacterium can wipe out entire herds. 

In this episode of “Our Wild Lives,” Kurt Alt and Corey Mason from the Wild Sheep Foundation (WSF) join us to talk about all things sheep conservation. They discuss the role of the WSF, the unique way sheep conservation is funded, the disease challenges wild sheep face and more. 

Learn more about the Wild Sheep Foundation: https://www.wildsheepfoundation.org/

“Our Wild Lives” is The Wildlife Society’s biweekly podcast, sharing compelling stories from wildlife professionals doing critical work around the world. Your hosts, Katie Perkins and Ed Arnett of The Wildlife Society, bring you thought-provoking conversations with leading experts and emerging voices. 

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Transcript

[00:00:02] Katie Perkins: Wild sheep can thrive in some of the most intense environments around the world. But their journey hasn't always been an easy one.

From the beloved bighorns in the American Southwest to the awe inspiring argali in the ranges of Central Asia, wild sheep have faced disease, habitat loss, and the slow pressure of a changing landscape. And yet they endure.

Today we're sitting down with Kurt and Corey from The Wild Sheep Foundation, an organization that's been working since 1977 with one very straightforward mission, putting and keeping wild sheep on the mountain. This episode dives into a little bit of everything from the unique way sheep conservation is funded and the disease challenges for wild herds, to the remarkable translocation work happening around the world.

This is Our Wild Lives podcast brought to you by The Wildlife Society. [00:01:00] if you asked me to pick my favorite animal of my career, of my lifetime, I would tell you Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep. I got to work with those very unique animals when I was an undergrad at Montana State, working on the Northern Yellowstone winter range in Cinnabar basin. And then all that experience kinda led into my master's program at the University of Wyoming. So I've done a lot of work on bighorns and I just love them. Had some great moments in the field, and we've got some great guests today to talk about all things wild sheep conservation.

[00:01:40] Ed Arnett: Joining us today are longtime friends and colleagues. Corey Mason. Corey, uh recently joined the Wild Sheep Foundation. He was at Dallas Safari Club Foundation for quite a while. And Texas Parks and Wildlife, and probably a few other gigs in between. And Corey is the Sheep Operating Officer and Executive Vice President of Conservation for the [00:02:00] Wild Sheep Foundation. Also a longtime TWS member and a Certified Wildlife Biologist. And Kurt Alt, a gentleman I met years ago as an undergrad. We were probably tackling elk out in the Graveley Mountains on the winter range, tagging 'em when we first met Kurt, he's Conservation Director of International Programs for the Wild Sheep Foundation.

And we've been members about the same length of time in the mid eighties. So welcome both of you. Kurt, I'm gonna start with you. Why don't you take us back kind of to a moment when you knew sheep conservation was part of your path and uh, part of the journey in wildlife conservation. 

[00:02:38] Kurt Alt: I think it, it started with my first permanent job with Fish, Wildlife and Parks. I mean, I worked so many years just to get on, you know, with a bachelor's and a master's at Montana State University of on all things bald eagles and osprey.

But my first permanent job was over in western Montana, in the Missoula region. And we had this new sheep [00:03:00] herd called the Lower Rock Creek Sheep Herd, that had been established just prior to me getting there.

And I had the honor of writing the first season justification for the first hunting season for that sheep herd. And that was my first year permanent on the job. And so. In every place I've been. I've worked there, I've worked in, you know, the Livingston area on the northern side of Yellowstone and the Yellowstone Valley.

I've been in the, the Gallatin and the Madison side out of Bozeman, and all the places I've worked have had wild sheep. And so I've just been exposed to 'em my whole career along with everything else from deer and elk to, to even bison and black bear and brown bear and, cougars and furbearer species and upland game birds.

But, but sheep had have always been in my background from the very beginning.

[00:03:50] Ed Arnett: Corey, how about you? What, what moment kinda spurred your interest in, in, in sheep conservation? Or was there a specific experience in the [00:04:00] field perhaps?

[00:04:00] Corey Mason: Yeah. I appreciate that. Ed and Katie, thanks for having us today. We appreciate that. You know, I I grew up in the western part of Texas and being around sheep and sheep landscapes. And then really enjoyed lots of time outdoors across the Western United States. And, , they're just such an incredible, you know, sort of captivating and inspiring landscape.

I think that's sort of part of the, the essence and aura of, of sheep conservation that I've really enjoyed. And then fast forward a bit, long before I started college program and wildlife conservation proper, worked and volunteered on guzzler projects, you know, to directly support sheep conservation and then worked, of course, with the state agency and supported those programs and, and then with Dallas Safari Club, you know, supported programs as well and directly supported grant aid projects on the ground. And so, you know, I have, I've had the ability and and honor to work alongside sheep conservation for many years of my career as well.

[00:04:54] Ed Arnett: Well, you made a really great point about the landscapes because the animal itself will leave [00:05:00] you in awe, but the, the landscapes they occupy will certainly keep you in shape too if you're chasing them around.

[00:05:07] Kurt Alt: I might add another aspect to my background is, know, and I agree with the landscape approach. I mean, to see sheep occupy the highest mountains to the reverse, the, the deep canyons of the Missouri River breaks is just amazing, the habitats that they can occupy. But my father was the district ranger on the Medora district, on the National Grasslands, on the Custer National Forest.

And I was a young kid before, before entering kinder about kindergarten age. And I remember he was involved with the first sheep transplant outside the Badlands on, I believe, the Burkhart Ranch that had the old Elkhorn branch. Teddy, Teddy Roosevelt's

[00:05:48] Ed Arnett: Yeah.

[00:05:50] Kurt Alt: Just outside of Medora.

[00:05:50] Ed Arnett: Yep.

[00:05:51] Kurt Alt: And then I went to work on that ranch as a young person in high school in the summer.

So that, that also had an impact on my, my early [00:06:00] association with bighorn sheep through my dad

[00:06:02] Ed Arnett: Yeah. And back in the day those were probably Audubon's, bighorn, proper before they

[00:06:07] Kurt Alt: back.

[00:06:07] Ed Arnett: were wiped out. Yeah. Way back. Yeah. So those transplants have been important. We'll get into that in a minute. 

[00:06:13] Katie Perkins: I would love to hear from both of you. I imagine you both have experiences of like seeing sheep up, up close and, and getting to observe them and understand their behaviors.

Could you just tell us a little bit more about like what is it like to be a bighorn sheep, and just give us a little more information about their life history.

[00:06:28] Kurt Alt: You know, when you think about what they have to do to survive, like all wildlife, but, but bighorn sheep are, unique because you can identify individuals, you can see them up close and personal. You can see what they eat, how they forage at different times of the year.

Certainly, you know, the winter time and digging through snow or eating shrubs when they have to. And then just their, their personalities. You know, and at the university we're always taught don't be anthropomorphic and we aren't for the most part. But we start to recognize that, you know, we think of [00:07:00] them as a sheep population, say a population. But when you start looking at sheep, they're, they really have nuances in their personalities on how they might go about something. And, you know, and then they've gotta fight off pre, I mean, they've gotta survive. Among all these things that want to eat 'em, you know, cougars being one of the principles, but there's more than cougars out there and they have to raise kids in this environment. That, and certainly in Montana has been predator rich from the beginning. Montana has all the, the, the, the native animals with things that can kill them. And, and so they, they, they're a hearty animal. You know, people say they're, they're born to die because they, they die from diseases, but they aren't, they're really a hearty animal. They do, they are afflicted with some things that that hit 'em particularly hard.

They haven't figured out yet, but they're a survivor.

[00:07:51] Corey Mason: You know, Katie, I think one of the things to me that, that I often sort of categorize sheep with is the word resilient. And meaning that they, you know, they, they occur [00:08:00] from high elevation in Alaska through the Yukon and British Columbia. And they can exist in the harshest of winters, and they face perils of things like stone sheep that we have collars on right now that we just received mortality signals from an avalanche that occurred that wiped some sheep out, uh, through across the western US and to, you know, to Mexico, you know, the desert landscapes and, temperatures that, that routinely exceed a 100 to 110 throughout, 90 days of their year, or 120 days of the year. And so, talking about a number of different species and subspecies, if you will, of sheep that occur in North America.

But, they're very resilient, from the habitats they live in, the predator threats they face, from landscape challenges. You know, and they're not often approachable and, and observed by many people. You know, you think about 'em in these high, remote landscapes, in which they typically are, but at the same time, you know, you're taking a family trip through a switchback in Colorado, and you come around the corner, and there's a band of rams on the side of the road, you know, that's an incredible surprise and fun thing to [00:09:00] see, but, I think that's another thing that people really appreciate sheep like that, is you don't often get to see them, but when you do, it's quite special.

[00:09:06] Katie Perkins: Yeah, the only time I've ever seen them is we were just cresting the top of Wheeler Peak in New Mexico and we saw them running along the ridge line and I was like, just forever remember that if I was so tired I couldn't feel my legs. We'd been hiking up this mountain for hours. But then to just see that and just be like, wow, they are like not even phased and I'm over here dying, trying to climb up this mountain. I think it's just like a real testament to how yeah resilient that they are.

[00:09:29] Kurt Alt: You know, one of the experiences I had in, in Central Asia is my good friend Jack Acheson Junior said, Kurt, when you see our argali, you're gonna be surprised. And he kind of told me what, what, what I was gonna be surprised about. So when I saw my, they were Karaganda argali in, in Kazakhstan, they run like antelope. I saw 'em and all I saw was like a a dust trail going off in the distance they really run. And that really surprised me because I don't think of [00:10:00] sheep quite like that. And these argali in Kazakhstan just took off like a rabbit and, and we weren't even close. We were probably a couple miles away and they saw us and they were poof gone. So that really gave me an impression of the diversity and the breadth of what wild sheep represent.

[00:10:20] Ed Arnett: Yeah, you don't look at wild sheep and think they're built for speed. They're built for endurance, you know, maybe short bursts to get back to the rocks or, or other escape type terrain. That's that's fascinating. I gotta share one experience I had, I, you talked about you know, they can be spooky but they can also be very approachable or they're just there right along the side of the road.

I, we see that a lot here in Colorado where I live. But when I was working on the northern part of the winter range there in the cinnabar basin, those are sheep are very approachable. And I was actually following them around. This is a fun job, folks. Following individual sheep around and picking up their, their scats after they freshly dumped them for me [00:11:00] on the ground because then I took 'em back and I was actually doing like parasitic counts of lungworm nematodes. And tying that back to specific sex and age classes. That was the little project that I had at Montana. But very approachable. And in fact, I almost got rammed one time by a couple of males that were about to butt heads, and I was caught near the middle of it.

And that would not have been a good situation. But one time my masters, I, I just came up on this one ram. He was very identifiable. He was the biggest one of the whole band that we had, and it was snowing and I just remember it was the only day in my life I think I ever experienced snow coming down, straight down in Wyoming. Because usually it's horizontal with the wind. And it was just a magical day. And I was tracking and the sheep, and all of a sudden I'm right amidst them and I look over and here's this big ram just laying there with about an inch of snow on his back. I just instantly kind of sat down and acted like I was eating grass and becoming one with the, [00:12:00] the herd, so to speak.

And I sat there for quite a while and snapped some good pictures and then got out of there. But that was a pretty magical moment. So, and I, I've seen 'em run like crazy too, so they're, they're highly versatile and variable in their behaviors.

 So Corey and Kurt, both of you, why don't you tell us about the mission and history and work of the Wild Sheep Foundation? This is a nonprofit that focuses very specifically on all the variations of wild sheep across the globe. Tell us, tell us a little bit more about The Sheep Foundation and its history.

[00:12:30] Corey Mason: Wild Sheep Foundation had its beginning as the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep in 1977. So you can look at the calendar and realize that we're approaching the 50th year anniversary right around the corner, which is a really exciting milestone, of course, for the foundation.

And then of course, years later transition from the FNAWS, the Foundation of North American Wild Sheep, to the Wild Sheep Foundation. And the mission of the Wild Sheep Foundation is very simple and straightforward, and that's putting and keeping wild sheep on the mountain. And it's really doing so with that sole purpose, and [00:13:00] so, really proud to underscore the fact that the foundation is such a mission focused organization and, and does so fulfill that mission by working directly with state agencies, tribes, First Nations, provincial governments, and as Kirk mentioned as well, international management authorities, wherever they may be in Central Asia or Europe or Mexico, Canada, wherever it might be.

But recognizes the value of a, of a foundation to philanthropically, meaning typically private dollars to be raised to support this, this wild sheep resource. And we can sort of rewind the clock, recognizing that, you know, wild sheep are unique, as, as a game animal. Very specifically speaking, in which they just simply don't pay for themselves, through the creation of license revenue and fees as assessed by, you know, the hunting community.

 As compared to like waterfowl or deer or, even elk, and so what that means is the foundation is focused to ensure the conservation of this species by, supporting those agencies and and being able to [00:14:00] provide the dollars needed for needed monitoring programs, habitat work, and in all of the associated work to do that.

And so we partner all across North America. We, you know, we're engaged as well in, in policy, that impacts public lands. The wild sheep resource. Work really directly with the federal land management agencies, specifically the US Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management. Obviously work closely with the US Fish and Wildlife Service on, on policy, both within the United States, but then internationally in which Kurt can touch on here shortly. But, you know, so the foundation is a small foundation, but yet extremely effective. Um, you know, we're really the only one in this space that focuses very directly on wild sheep conservation.

And, and so, quite proud of the fact that, you know, there's, there's very, very little mission creep. And, you know, we see ourselves as really that, that gathering place. We're not the lead, compared to the state agencies. They are the lead in managing that resource as the jurisdictional [00:15:00] authority, recognized by federal and or state legislature, statute as well.

But yet, we're that partner that's shoulder to shoulder with them to support their needs and management actions. 

[00:15:10] Ed Arnett: Tell us about your international programs, and then I got a follow up on yesteryear. We, we talked earlier about subspecies going extinct. I wanna go back a little further with both of you, 

[00:15:20] Kurt Alt: I'll start, start a little bit in North America and start where Cory left off. You know, the, the sale of a conservation permit for a state, you know, a state will a grant us the authority to auction off a conservation permit or to a state or a province or even our, our tribal First Nations.

And it's just usually one or two permits at the most, but usually one. That allows the state to maximize, at least in the US where we have Pittman Robertson, it allows them to maximize the amount of money that they can get on a three to one match because it's revenue generated outside the state boundary and then donated [00:16:00] back to the state. And that's significant when Corey talked about how other species do pay their way and actually pay for a lot of other species work that don't generate funds. Here's an opportunity to really generate that added revenue that we really need to do all the work, whether it's disease work, GPS collars, distribution, connectivity, genetics, the whole nine yards could never be funded without that additional money.

And then we, of course, leverage that money, as Corey said, with our partners, other partners, other interests in the private nonprofit world as well, and in the commercial world. One of the things that, you know, internationally, we do is we're, we're trying to create an international, we call our, our world headquarters are in Bozeman, Montana and it's really a world headquarters. We're, we are developing international programs across Central Asia. Right now we have a really strong one going on in, in five countries in Central Asia, [00:17:00] Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. We're developing another program in, in Europe with alpine ibex and alpine ibex restoration in Europe.

So, so, you know, when we go international, we look at sheep and goats. So markhors are a big one in, in, in, in Central Asia. And ibex are a big one across the board. There's, there's some needs here and there for ibex, but argali, we're, we're focused primarily on argali and I don't know how many subspecies of argali there are.

If I had a moment to tally 'em up, I could tally 'em up for you. But, but they also have some similar needs that, that North American sheep have, you know, whether it's good count data, whether it's disease surveillance, whether it's a genetic understanding that actually impacts CITES, imports and exports of, of, of species under CITES.

Knowing what species, what subspecies is, which is important for, for the country, but [00:18:00] also for CITES documentation under ESA with U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service as well. So we do that. You know, we're, we're looking at raising funds. We have conservation permits modeled somewhat after what we've implemented in North America on, on tribal and First Nations and states and provinces. We have conservation permits established in both Mongolia and now Kyrgyzstan. To help them generate a more stable funding base. They don't have a Pittman Robertson match. Well, neither does Canada. But they don't have the, the funding resources that we have. And, and quite frankly, neither does Europe when it comes to ibex restoration. They, they get a lot of money out of the EU for other species, the charismatic species that we all know about bears and, and links and wolves, understandably. But the, the, some of their traditional big game species don't get much money. So it's a way we're trying to show them a path to generate funds for their [00:19:00] own projects in ways that they've never utilized. So, so our international program really is international in its scope when it comes to Caprinae species, wild sheep and goats. 

[00:19:11] Ed Arnett: Do you guys think that these programs, including in North America, but particularly in the international space as well, do you think they could survive or generate enough funds to actually keep sheep on the mountain to borrow your mission statement without hunting and the sale of these permits? Or would it just be different and you could raise the same amount of money from people that actually care about sheep?

[00:19:35] Corey Mason: Yeah, I'll I'll, I'll start on that. It's a great question, Ed, and, and a bit introspective and short answer is no. And, and, and the, and the meaning of that is that, you know, tourism associated with the, you know, the sheep economy, if you will, people that have interest in, in wild sheep and viewing them and, and just being able to enjoy them on the landscape, that certainly has value.

But the remoteness of the species, where it occurs, the [00:20:00] access to the species simply would not allow that at the, the economic scale needed to maintain that species. And again, I'll, I'll just keep underscoring it, the remoteness and the landscapes in which these sheep occur, it's really important because then what that means is the, the financial needs associated with that, are just infinitely more.

You know, so, testing and capture. It typically means access via helicopter. You know, it's not something that's typically on the side of the road. Yeah, sure. That might happen here and there, but it's not the norm. And to, to monitor these sheep across landscapes, you know, it's satellite collars and it's disease testing, and and it's working specifically with domestic wildlife producers to ensure, risk of contact and separation of these, these animals on the landscape.

And so the ability to create the, the millions and millions of dollars at the singular state level and then apply it across multiple states, it simply wouldn't occur without conservation permits. And one data point I'll leave you with, and then I'll [00:21:00] turn it over to Kurt, is that from Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agency's data, it shows that conservation permits very specifically, and associated with that, if it's raffle or auction, whatever it is, comprises 83 of their wild sheep budgets.

So in the absence of that conservation permit, the ability to monitor and maintain and conserve that species, it simply wouldn't exist. 

[00:21:24] Ed Arnett: And can I drill in just a little more on that one? Because I think this is a critically important point. 83% of the budget for state agencies to manage sheep coming from those specific permits. There is of course an argument, and you all know this is coming that those permits are a public re they represent something available in the public trust, a public resource that selling them is, you know, a violation of various principles of the North American model and all those kinds of arguments. I can sure live with it if it generates that kind of money. Some of these sheep tags go for hundreds of thousands of [00:22:00] dollars, don't they?

[00:22:00] Corey Mason: They, they, they do. They raise needed dollars for those states. And I mean, functionally, it's no different than any other hunting license or fishing license. It's the ability and the opportunity to participate in the outdoors. And as Kirk mentioned earlier, you know, there are typically, the states that do offer that as a conservation funding mechanism, they typically have a raffle, that makes it, you know, more publicly available, if you will.

And oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes that's restricted to residents within that state. So it makes it available to that, that citizenry. 

[00:22:29] Ed Arnett: Yeah. 

[00:22:30] Corey Mason: And then the conservation permit proper is available more broadly. And then the aggregate of that raises the needed dollars. And so, to your point, it is the only durable model that has existed since the eighties. And you can look at the, the growth and trend of wild sheep recovery since then, and see that it's been a proven model. And back to your point, you know, if a more durable model presents itself, man, we'd be the first ones to love to have that conversation, to be able to to further lift resources available for, you know, for wild sheep conservation.

But, for [00:23:00] the last several decades, it has been the proven model. 

[00:23:02] Kurt Alt: Ed, you know, I, you know, I think of hunting, I think of sustainable use, I think of, when I think of sustainable use, I think of providing reliable funding sources to conserve, restore, when necessary those species in and without, without providing a reliable funding source, those species will slowly disappear or become so irrelevant they don't have a biological or an ecological impact in their environment on their

[00:23:35] Ed Arnett: an advocate for their habitat. Do you lose the advocacy for the habitats that are so 

[00:23:40] Kurt Alt: So when you look at what's going on, it's, it's real if I use Montana example, and then I'll jump to Central Asia. So Montana just sold their one permit for a little over $400,000 sold it at the sheep show. generate a three to one match. What is that 1.2 million from potentially PR at [00:24:00] total. And so we, and you think of a state like Montana who has now less than 5,000 sheep, a little less than 5,000 bighorn sheep. There are more white-tailed deer in the Gallatin Valley around Bozeman than there are bighorn sheep in the state of Montana.

And if, if people were so generous, if we could find ways to fund it in other ways, great. But that's not reality in the world we live in where people live and work on that landscape. People like to have access to their, their resource. And in doing so, we can develop reliable funding sources. So here's a way you cannot issue enough permits in the state of Montana for resident hunting to generate anywhere close to the amount of money the state of Montana needs be able to spend to, to restore their sheep population to 8,000 to 10,000. We can't get there without that additional income. So, and then when you go to Central Asia, they haven't had that ability. Yes, there's [00:25:00] been a lot of commercial hunting, but, and some of goes into communities, which supports sustainability in communities, but to actually direct some of those funds back to the actual resource so they can buy GPS collars, so that can do the genetic analysis, the disease surveillance, the, the, the habitat work that needs to be done across Central Asia. There's no other way to generate those funds that anybody has come up with. So, it centers on a reliable funding source to fund a species that needs extra help right now. Row deer, red deer wild bore in Europe, elk, mule, deer. Some might argue mule deer are, are struggling in places, but certainly white-tailed, other species can generate vast amounts of money through general hunting licenses, but sheep aren't in that category.

They don't have the ability to do that.

[00:25:54] Ed Arnett: Real quick before we move on, I wanted to dial back to the time when Audubon's Bighorn [00:26:00] were basically extirpated and, you know, we got to a certain point keeping sheep from going extinct without the Wild Sheep Foundation. Obviously efforts have gone crazy and I want, I wanted to hear some numbers that you guys have been able to generate into conservation, but, you know, maybe from both of your state agency perspectives, you know, not that I expect you to tell us what was happening back then, but we did it without these sales of individual licenses in a, in a, in an extraordinary NGO that does specific work on it. How, how did we keep 'em from going extinct? 

[00:26:36] Kurt Alt: I think we had dedicated bio, you know, the beginning of the wildlife profession. To be honest with you, wildlife management made a difference. And I've always used to joke with my enforcement friends in Montana, you guys were the first ones in this agency, and when all of us biologists are gone, you'll still be in the agency. But it was the advent of wildlife management, which The Wildlife [00:27:00] Society represents a professional element of our, of our work. But wildlife management, the, the, the development of its approaches is really what, what did that, and when, when states started hiring wildlife biologists and they didn't have, they didn't have airplanes and they maybe had, you know, broken down trucks, but they were able to do things the old fashioned way that, that really started a, a, a restoration effort. 

[00:27:29] Corey Mason: agree with that. And then recognize, you know, through, you know, the last 50 years, if you will, 75 years, you know, the changing landscape and the challenges that came around that time, meaning, farmsteads and landscapes changing and domestic livestock interactions and sort of the culmination of all of those things that led ultimately sort of to the demise of wild sheep on the landscape collectively.

And then on the back end of that, recognizing the plight of this species and then the concerted effort that really spawned out of that. Meaning people given of their [00:28:00] time, talents, and treasures to say, hey, we need to conserve this species at a scale that's meaningful, because if not, you know, it will be too late.

And again, you look over the last few decades and while sheep populations still have a long ways to go, obviously bef to, you know, to reach pre-colonization. Are those numbers realistic to reach again? Probably not. But we can sure, we still have a long ways to go to, to restore species to habitats that are suitable.

But that trend is certainly in a positive manner. And there are a number of states that, that are doing extremely well and others that are struggling. And in some of those, of course, we can put our finger right on what that is. And it's typically habitat competition, and, and then in more cases, more specifically, it's, it's a disease, um, and particularly in pneumonia type disease that we deal with and spend a lot of resources on.

But, so there's a lot of things that have kind of ebbed and flowed through time that have led us to where we are now, but, the trend is certainly headed in the right direction now. 

[00:28:51] Ed Arnett: Corey, share your broad impact dollar wise because you guys have put tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars out on the ground. Right.

[00:28:59] Corey Mason: We [00:29:00] have, you know, the Wild Sheep Foundation's been extremely impactful. You know, you just look at just this, last year alone, and over 11 million dollars put in conservation programs, and so mission impact programs. And then again, like Kurt's mentioned a couple of times, you know, those are non-federal dollars. We do not operate under federal programs. Not saying that's good or bad, it's just a a point of fact. And so in most cases, those dollars are then amplified, obviously within the US specific, uh, matched PR. And so those dollars get really real, very fast um, and the ability to support those state fish and wildlife agencies. and you know, it's a, it's a real privilege to be able to do that along some of those states both in the, in the financial standpoint but then there's also additional capacity and support we bring from expertise and then bring in additional partners to the table and Kurt has absolutely been the master of that in, in Central Asia, but you know, again, I mentioned it earlier, but really being that that collection point to bring people together that are passionate about the resources through Wild Sheep Foundation [00:30:00] proper, but then also the many chapter and affiliates that we have the ability to partner with.

So additional dollars and resources and capacity are brought to the table for the management and betterment of the resource.

[00:30:10] Katie Perkins: Yeah. Kurt, could you tell us a specific conservation project you've been a part of with wild sheep and what does it look like to actually work on wild sheep and make an impact on the ground?

[00:30:19] Kurt Alt: Oh, I'd love to. Maybe I might use a couple examples. I, I'd start with Central Asia. When we first started working in, in Central Asia back in 2017, there was not a structure. It was, we aren't, we weren't sure who to work with. We knew they had biologists. I was told there's no hunting culture in Kazakhstan by people that had been there. In terms of resident hunting culture. I was told there weren't many good biologists in Central Asia and I went there. And guess what I found out there are some outstanding wildlife biologists in Central Asia, as good as any I ever worked with in the state of Montana. And Ed, you know, [00:31:00] some of the people I worked with, some outstanding, they're as good a researchers and managers. They just didn't have any resources.

I mean, it's a vast area and then when I went to kazakhstan, I said, I understand your culture doesn't hunt and they looked at me like, no, that's not true. We hunt wild boar. We hunt red deer, we hunt all these species. and, and I said, but you have access to ammunition and hunting rifles.

They said, yeah, they showed me a ma and pa outdoor sporting goods store, just like I used, I grew up with in Butte, Montana, So all of a sudden, you know, my eyes opened up and I thought, wow, we really have a culture that understands the importance of sustainable use. We have scientists that don't, they don't have enough money to go meet with their neighboring biologists in a country that's as big as, bigger than Alaska, and from a country that's the seventh largest country in the world, that's Kazakhstan. They just, how do you [00:32:00] travel those distances? And, and it's not like they have interstates and auto bonds.

You know, the road network is good, but it's not that easy to get around some places in high speed distances. So, so we've been working with them and we, we helped them develop their own wild sheep working group. I, and, and this was my mantra. You guys have the potential, you have the expertise and the potential. You don't need North Americans and Europeans looking over your shoulder. And we had a history of both us and other organizations from North America and Europe sending wildlife biologists to help them do surveys. Well, they were very capable of doing their own survey. So I said, I'll help you form, wild sheep, we will find money to help you set up your working group on one condition. And I said, the condition is, no North Americans or Europeans allowed. It's your group. That doesn't mean you can't invite us in, but your [00:33:00] group is made up of your biologists. 

And my ultimate goal is when IUCN, they do the species assessments worldwide. My ultimate goal is the next time there's a species assessment due for argali in Central Asia, that group is in charge of doing it. It's normally been people from North American, Europeans leading the charge with advice from different people. But my, my, my goal would be have those guys do the species assessment.

So, so now they're out doing collaborative surveys. They applied for a GIA to continue their working group forward the five countries and they're out doing collaborative surveys as we speak. The first collaborative surveys in Central Asia, biologists from these five countries.

And that is like, that's what we were hoping, not just me, but we as an organization were hoping to have happen. And then, you know, another, another one is, is in Europe, you know, they don't know how to do [00:34:00] funding. They don't know how to get that extra non-governmental funding. And so this ibex restoration project in Slovenia really involves us SCI Foundation. FACE, which is the European Hunters Association representing 37 countries. They're, the chapters in 37 European countries and CIC one of the oldest conservation organizations in the world. So it's a collaborative effort to help them realize a way to generate funds outside of government that they've never done. So that's a learning experience, hopefully, that we can help them with. And then in Montana, I'll leave it with, this when I started working for the Wild Sheep Foundation. After I retired, I and I worked for National and Montana helped augment my, my salary. But a, I made a statement to the Montana guys, I'll work with you guys on one condition.

I'm tired of fighting with the wool growers. We need to do [00:35:00] something different. And we did. So Montana Wild Sheep, Montana Wool Growers are really close, not aligned on everything, but are working well together. Montana has a conservation committee that has a wool grower representative on our conservation committee. And because of that effort, Montana did their first sheep transplant for the first time in 23 years, a few years ago. And Fish, Wildife and Parks was able to dedicate $8 million to a bighorn sheep, domestic sheep effort. That's a five year project, probably will be extended. Their in year three. It talks about co-mingling, how do you manage co-mingling between domestic and wild sheep and then it's adaptive management on everything from predation to habitat to disease and genetics. So that's an 8 million do. And that is, and they didn't come back to Wild Sheep Foundation for additional money that's being funded primarily through the auction revenue. One license is being spent on this [00:36:00] effort and it took the Montana legislature to approve it and it took the wool growers to come in and say, yes, this we agree. The nemesis for most of my career, all of a sudden we're working together. So, so that's the third one. And it's just really been fun for me to see collaborative efforts make a difference. That's all. 

[00:36:19] Ed Arnett: Kurt. Dig into that just a tad bit deeper because not everybody understands the conflicts between domestic sheep. Just a quick summary of the biology of the matter and, and what the problem is for bighorns and why that co-mingling can result in bad consequences for bighorns.

[00:36:36] Kurt Alt: Yeah, so, so bighorn sheep, wild sheep and domestic sheep are pretty closely related, so they can exchange, exchange bugs, so to speak, or pathogens. And, and one is, is a respiratory pathogen. And I used to always say, yeah, it kills bighorn sheep. It doesn't impact domestic sheep. Well, in our work with the will growers, I found out that is not true.

[00:36:57] Ed Arnett: Hmm.

[00:36:58] Kurt Alt: In one sense, yes, it [00:37:00] kills bighorn sheep, but it does impact the industry. It impacts the industry in terms of reduced lamb weaning weights maybe up to 6%, which according to the Montana Wool Grower President, is a game changer for some of the producers. It impacts herd health. It impacts twinning opportunities, potentially. There's impacts on domestic sheep, and yes, it does kill them at times, but not like we see in bighorn sheep. So all of a sudden we said, man, instead of pointing fingers at keep your domestic sheep away from our wild sheep, and them saying, we're getting tired of being blamed for every time a wild sheep population dies off, we said, wait, our enemy is the bug.

It's not each other. Let's find a way to focus energy on the bug. So that's what Wild Sheep Foundation has been doing. That's what Montana is still doing. Another effort started as a result of that is Department of Agriculture has funded and MSU, which, which [00:38:00] actually has this unique group of people in the immunology department and Department of of Agriculture, or in the College of Ag at MSU actually working on this m.ovi, this respiratory pathogen in domestic sheep. They're the only ones in the country. It's a concerted effort. He already a million and a half dollars in the last few years and it's ongoing. So that's, that we think also will help their industry, but also has spinoff benefits to wild sheep. That's the difference between fighting each and all of a sudden coming together and saying, Hey, have a, we have a common problem. Let's work together to address it.

[00:38:37] Katie Perkins: Corey, do you have any, any, any projects you've been a part of that have stuck with you? 

[00:38:41] Corey Mason: You know, there are a couple that, that come to mind immediately and I'll look southern latitude and then I'll look northern latitude. Just right here in, in my backyard in Texas. A really significant project occurred in the last couple of years, restoring sheep, really dealing with the disease or the bug, to use Kurt's word, that, the desert bighorn sheep in Texas have been [00:39:00] facing.

Really trying to create, additional source herds in Texas that are disease -free, that typically occur on public land right now on state -owned wildlife management areas. Some sheep, of course, occur on, on private land here. It's a private land state, certainly. But a big effort to move 77 sheep within the last couple of years to a new mountain range, formerly occupied by by wild sheep, of course, to create that additional source herd that is disease -free.

So that was a very significant effort. Led by obviously Texas Parks and Wildlife, Texas Bighorn Society, and Wild Sheep Foundation was a significant part of that as well. So big project, to safeguard that resource. Really proud to report that, significant reproduction occurring and those sheep are utilizing the mountain.

And then at some point in time, If that's two years, or four years, or five years, those sheep will then be used, when they reach carrying capacity, for those offspring to be moved to, you know, reestablish populations in additional mountain ranges, so very successful project. Now we can move north, a project that we actually had a team [00:40:00] meeting on yesterday.

That's a, a a project that that began in British Columbia years ago, like in the 1950s and sixties where California bighorn sheep were moved to Oregon because the struggling populations in Oregon to reestablish populations functionally. And now in Oregon, fast forward, to present time those populations have done so well now they're needing to move sheep because they're over carrying capacity and need to move healthy sheep back and so there's the project that we, we've titled Coming Home.

So moving California sheep back to British Columbia and and populations again where those sheep have struggled a bit. Now to, to, to reoccupy mountain ranges there. And so it's a huge collaborative effort, as you can imagine, from, Canada to the United States and all the, the issues associated with that from, permissions and requests and now paperwork and clearances and all of that.

So, there are infinite number of details to be dealt with, but the, the provincial government in BC and their, biologists and, and Oregon staff are just [00:41:00] working beautifully together. Wild Sheep Foundation and the Wild Sheep Society of British Columbia have the privilege of helping facilitate this, again with the state agencies and provincial government as the lead.

To see this thing come together over the next couple of years. So a fantastic project, multilateral, cooperative project. So yeah, it's, it's a pretty fantastic example of working with the resource first in cooperation.

[00:41:23] Ed Arnett: I can't help but weigh in as a former sheep biologist with just an anecdote on kind of a turning point in sheep restoration and, and relocation projects when I was doing my master's work. We were basically taking what I'd call alpine migratory type herds of sheep that were above carrying capacity and could supply various former habitats, historic ranges.

And we were putting those, alpine mountain migratory sheep into low elevations, xeric, kind of dry winter range conditions that were probably occupied [00:42:00] by Audubon's Bighorn back in the day. And they didn't work out very well. And I think once nutritional ecology started coming into play with some of the early works of Charlie Krebs and Tom Hobbes and others start realizing how important that summer/fall range is animals don't go to winter range to gain weight, right?

They go there to burn their fat and die potentially. So, we started learning more about the importance of, of migration, but also, just these resonant populations that had nowhere to migrate. And the difference in birthing of lamb, timing of lambings. Those low elevation sheep were probably giving birth to the lambs in April and May to time with the greenup, right?

So now you have a, you're transplanting with these alpine migratory sheep that are used to giving birth in late May, early June. So the timing was off and then that whole nutritional trickle down. And I think when we started getting that resolved, we started moving, you know, desert or California [00:43:00] bighorn sheep, which are subspecies that occupy dryer xeric conditions into dryer xeric conditions throughout the west. I think that made a huge difference. What do what do you guys think? I mean, I just think that was a turning point when we started matching kind of habitat and and conditions with the, with the sheep that are, were available for transplant.

[00:43:20] Kurt Alt: Ed, I agree. I, I think that was really an important ask. Another more recent advent is recognizing that we're moving sheep that had certain m.ovi variants, 

[00:43:32] Ed Arnett: What is that exactly?

[00:43:34] Kurt Alt: Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae 

[00:43:37] Ed Arnett: Okay. 

[00:43:37] Kurt Alt: sso there's many different varieties of it. Well, I, I'm, I'm not finding the right word, all of a sudden in my vocabulary. Strains. Yeah.

[00:43:46] Ed Arnett: Bugs earlier.

[00:43:47] Kurt Alt: Yeah, different strains. And so, you know, until we started looking at strains and genetics, even with, with regard to the bug. All of a sudden we realized we're moving disease [00:44:00] around, even in augmentations to, to herds that maybe didn't have that particular strain. So that was a, another more recent thing is by even moving sheep, looking at their genetic and their disease profile has become a really important first question to ask before things are moved. 

[00:44:18] Ed Arnett: Wow. Yeah, I, I was not, I haven't been up on the literature lately. That's a great point. you know, we've talked about a number of the threats disease big mammals with fangs and such that can want to eat sheep. But what, what do you guys think the future holds for wild sheep conservation and what do we need to do to further your mission and keep sheep on the mountain?

[00:44:41] Corey Mason: I'll I'll start on that to touch, but you know, I think what next steps are is, is this increased awareness of what the challenges are, and, and I'll, I'll sort of then flash back to one of the most promising aspects of it is that wild sheep enthusiast are some of the most passionate people out there, and there's some of the most generous people out there.

So [00:45:00] if that's the agency biologist, you know, that are working or tribal biologist or whatever it might be, or it's the passionate person that loves to see the sheep on the mountain, they're committed to that resource. And so they'll support it. They'll support it by, you know, work projects, habitat projects.

They'll support it with dollars. They'll do whatever is needed for the resource. And so there is, I just say that because there's very significant, positive wins in that direction. We see momentum and positive momentum in that regard, and our federal land management agencies between the Forest Service and BLM, when you look at the amount of land that they hold, and the importance of them to, just for example, say, the bighorn sheep resource and desert bighorn sheep as well.

I mean, they are the majority landowner of that sheep's habitat, and so we work with them very closely, and we're very fortunate to have good contacts there that are willing and, and desire to work with, like the Wild Sheep Foundation to manage that resource in our chapters and affiliates. And so there's a lot of energy there to manage this resource.

Now, in addition to that, what's needed? You know, the [00:46:00] ability to prioritize those species. You know, there's consistent challenges to the funding model associated with wild sheep at state legislatures. That would be tragic if that happened. Particularly in the absence of a better or equal model.

So we, we obviously fight, if you will, that. We educate and inform that conversation significantly every year. And, and so that's a challenge. But again, the positive of that is, is that we are there. The community is there supporting that wild cheap resource. So, and the trend is positive. There's challenges, absolutely. But the state agencies are committed. There's tremendous opportunities and we see great land stewardship with tribes and First Nations that Kurt and I have both mentioned, huge opportunities there a again, amazing land stewards that are committed to the resource. And so there's a lot of opportunities there.

That we're working with, that we're really privileged to be able to work with those, those tribes as, as land stewards. So, a lot of good things going on in the wild sheep conservation world, and research that's continuing to come out. You know, state agency [00:47:00] partners that have dedicated, you know, wildlife veterinarians as well as, folks that work in the in the field from wildlife disease health to universities as well that are that are really leaning into that resource and recognizing some of the things that Kurt just pointed out and, and how can we support that resource with good information and then and then generating the dollars needed to make it happen.

So, you know, a lot of positive things happen in the wild sheep community. 

[00:47:22] Kurt Alt: Corey said it perfectly. I mean, these people just really appreciate and really admire these species. Think they have a place. And you know, and then when it comes to the biodiversity issue, it's, you know, it's a big word that a lot of us in North America don't use much, but it's used around the world and bighorn sheep are really important part of, of the environment for a whole bunch of reasons.

From top down, you know, from being a herbivore a vegetation eater, a plant community influencer, a food source for other species that maybe aren't as popular, but maybe as important. I just think [00:48:00] that people aren't gonna give up on bighorn sheep. That's how I, I view it. And I've not seen a backing away from the challenges we're facing.

If anything, I see a movement, even a stronger and stronger movement building. And, and then to find out that other people in the sheep world that is the sheep producer actually has something at stake in our success as well. And so expanding our family bigger and bigger, that's how I, that's what I, I, I'm really optimistic about it.

[00:48:31] Katie Perkins: Corey, for someone listening to this who's never set foot in sheep country, will maybe never see wild sheep in their lives because they're so elusive. Make the case to them. Why, why does wild sheep conservation matter to someone like that?

[00:48:44] Corey Mason: Yeah, it's it is a great question, and it's one that we reflect on within the Wild Sheep Foundation. You know, why, why do wild sheep matter to the landscape? And I, I think it's, it is such an iconic species, and I don't use that word flippantly, because I think it's probably overused in many cases, but it, [00:49:00] it really is.

It's a symbol of wild, contiguous landscapes. And healthy landscapes, you know, non -fragmented landscapes. And again, it is it is a species of resilience. From that high mountain species to the deserts of the southwest and what it represents. And it is a species that, it is a barometer of ecosystem health.

Um, you know, it is sort of that keystone species that lets people know that these systems are generally healthy or they're not. But it's also a species that represents cooperation, you know, cooperation across private lands, public lands, federal lands, and the species simply does not exist if all that isn't happening.

And again, it's another reason that Wild Sheep Foundation was deeply engaged in public land sales recently and, and informing and educating that, that conversation. And so it sort of connects a lot of those pieces. And I think it's a bit of a symbol of public lands and what they represent as well.

And so I think someone, if they live in Florida, about as far away as you could be from wild sheep landscape, or if you live in Montana, where our world [00:50:00] headquarters is, You have that connection to wild sheep directly and indirectly. And so they really do serve as a bit of that species that people can hold and regard and almost reverence of what they represent and sort of the wild around them.

[00:50:13] Kurt Alt: One of the things I would only add is if, if people that aren't even close to wild sheep, if they saw a video of a young lamb in the spring bouncing around rocks, they would actually fall in love with the species. There's nothing more joyous to see a little young ram bouncing from rock to rock and not falling. It is just amazing. So I'll leave it at that.

[00:50:38] Corey Mason: That's a good point, Kurt. Yeah, just makes you smile.

[00:50:41] Kurt Alt: Yeah.

[00:50:42] Ed Arnett: And when you watch it live in the, in the real time, in the real landscapes, it's, it's even a more amazing experience. So, well, I'll just add that I think we are at a very critical time in conservation, at least here in North America with some of the things that are going on [00:51:00] with our federal land management agencies.

A loss of capacity, a loss of funding, a, you know, the Sheep Foundation may not get direct funding, but you know, that our Forest Service and BLM and other land management agencies and the Fish and Wildlife Service dedicate a lot of funds and staff time to managing sheep. And we're in challenging times right now. So my point is, is that your work with the Wild Sheep Foundation expanding those partnerships and working with diverse stakeholders to solve problems is probably more important now than it ever has been. So thank you for your work and thanks for being TWS members and thanks for being here. And keep up the great work. 

[00:51:41] Katie Perkins: Kurt and Corey, you've both been a part of TWS for a long time. Could you just tell us a little bit about, you know, how being involved in The Wildlife Society has impacted your career and the work you've been able to accomplish?

[00:51:51] Kurt Alt: Ya know, I'm just a Montana guy that grew up in Butte, Montana, but I've had some wonderful opportunities in my both before [00:52:00] I joined Wild Sheep and certainly since, and, you know, and I've been exposed to European wildlife management as well. And what makes TWS so significant the world of conservation is it's a place every state or province has a chapter. There's now a, a Native American Wildlife Society, and it's a place where researchers and managers actually interact. to each other, listen to the newest research, talk about the biggest problems. 

That does not happen any place else in the world, TWS has represented that bringing together of managers and scientists. I don't see it, it doesn't happen in Europe. It happens, but not at that level, not at that scale. There's always a disconnect. I find more disconnect than I see connections. And so TWS is really that true professional organization that [00:53:00] has advanced year after year, our knowledge of, of wildlife science, wildlife management, conservation. So thank you guys.

[00:53:08] Corey Mason: Katie, I'll, I'll tell you that TWS has been beyond formative to me in my wildlife conservation career. I was really blessed to have a professor, Dr. Monnie Whiting, when I was an undergraduate at Stephen F. Austin State University that, that strongly encouraged to almost voluntold, if you will, students that they needed to be involved in the professional society for lots of reasons.

Number one, education, but maybe equally important at that part in your career, it's engagement and building that community around you. And so began attending Texas Chapter of the Wildlife Society and then ultimately TWS annual conferences as well. And I've been very fortunate to be able to do that through my career.

But you know, that, that attending those conferences, at the state level and then ultimately again, the national level, attending, learning, building that community and, and building more broad, knowledge and exposure of [00:54:00] things that were outside the things that I had firsthand to ability to touch and see.

And then that turned into presenting at those conferences, and then it turned into volunteering on committees, and then it turned into leading committees. And then I had the privilege of serving as the president of the Texas chapter, and that's where I had the privilege of really getting to spend time with Ed.

And then build that relationship and so now to, to attend, for example, the most recent annual conference and serve on a panel with Ed and, and talk about the role of NGOs and wildlife conservation and have those conversations and, and build community amongst professionals.

Again, I'll just say it, that TWS was very formative in my career and I'm really, really privileged to say I'm a proud member and appreciate what TWS does every single day.