(EOS Episode 34) Why An EOS Accountability Chart Beats An Org Chart

Most businesses don’t struggle because people don’t care. They struggle because nobody can say, with confidence, who owns what. 

This time on Traction for Your Workplace Goals, Certified EOS Implementer Michele Mollard is digging into a deceptively simple shift that changes everything: replacing a typical org chart with an EOS accountability chart.  

When you stop guessing and start naming accountability, meetings get shorter, decisions speed up, and drama fades fast. Listen and hear how.

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EOS-Traction for Your Workplace Goals is a Livemic Communications production.

Transcript

Welcome Back And Today’s Focus

Richard Piet 0:02

I'm Richard Piet. Welcome back to Traction for Your Workplace Goals. If you've clicked on these episodes, that means you've got some wheels turning, right? About the future success of your business. And that's what we talk about. And we focus on the entrepreneurial operating system, EOS. Michele Mollard is a certified EOS implementer, and today we're back talking about accountability versus the org chart. Hello, Michele.

Michele Mollard 0:34

Hello, Richard. Thank you for having me. And uh also thank you, Richard, for postponing a week. And I know most of you don't, none of you know that. Uh and if you're looking at this video and you're thinking, Michele looks different, my eyes are a little puffy because Richard gave me grace and said, Well, we're not gonna put you on video with pink eye. Uh so a little bit still here, a little bit recovered. If those of you that are listening and not watching, well, then you don't know what we're talking about anyway. And so we're not gonna make a big deal of this. But those of you that might say, your eyes don't look as bright today, Michele. Well, it's because about of that came through. So appreciate your grace.

Richard Piet 1:12

Well, you're very welcome. And um uh I am so glad that you're on the mend here, number one. And uh secondly, folks, this is proof. Michele doesn't just live inside her office in this little video box that we look at. You are out in the world.

Michele Mollard 1:28

I am out in the wild getting pink eye.

Richard Piet 1:32

But also helping people with accountability and their org charts and the future success of their business. That's what we're talking about today. What are we talking about here when we say accountability versus the org chart?

Accountability Chart Versus Org Chart

Michele Mollard 1:46

Yeah, and so it's accountability chart and org chart, right? And so there's so many companies, and as you're listening to this, you're thinking, oh, I know what an organizational chart is, and it's all these little boxes, right? Owner, CEO, CFO, all the people that go, you know, kind of down through this visual. Um, and so I want you to keep that in mind. That's exactly what we're talking about, except an accountability chart with the world of EOS is an org chart on steroids. And so I mean that is mean it looks the same, except in those boxes, it's not just who's reporting to who, right? So if Richard is my boss, I'm underneath him. Uh, but it is about the accountability that is what Richard is accountable for in his execution of his job and what I'm accountable for in the execution of my job. Five roles. So it's just very high level, but it's the major things that's what makes it accountable. So I'm gonna dive into more about that, but that's why that's the difference between an accountability chart and an org chart, and fundamentally that's what the differences are.

Richard Piet 2:47

You know what? So much of what we've talked about centers around knowing your role and being clear about these things. It's just another piece of that, isn't it?

Michele Mollard 2:58

It's a tool in which it gets us clear expectations, right? From from me to me, right? Meaning that I can read this and know exactly what I'm expected for, and there's no guesses. And then from you as my boss, right, I know what's expected, but the reverse. So many times bosses and employees potentially know what they're expected on, but I now know what's expected of you, Richard, as my boss. And that's sometimes very different because we've never seen your job description, right? I have maybe have never seen the sales manager job description as a salesperson, but it's not the job description because there's only five roles in the box, but I know what he is responsible for, right? And so we're really making sure that we have that. And so that's why it's um I think it's even more unique. There's lots of uniqueness. We're going to go through that today. But that's one of the uniquest things, in my opinion, is that I now know what you're being held accountable to.

Richard Piet 3:47

And so many times I would say, even in my own experience, uh, we might think we know what our boss is supposed to be doing, right? Yeah. And uh maybe it's not clear. And think about all the uncertainty and uh lack of clarity that creates.

Michele Mollard 4:05

Yeah, and it also creates sometimes in the absence of information, people make up stuff. Oh, yeah. And so, right? There's also like, oh, you know, in their and this is a joke, right? But in their job description, they get to go golfing every Friday, right? And so there's so many things that people just make up and be like, oh, they don't work or they don't work hard or they don't know what they're doing. And transparency in EOS, just driving that transparency at every level and everything that we do, leaders up and down, it's always a moving, uh managing up and managing down. Uh, and so there's a huge part of the accountability chart that gives massive amounts of transparency of what people are responsible to do.

Richard Piet 4:42

So,

Structure First People Second

Richard Piet 4:43

how do we create this? Or how does EOS help create this?

Michele Mollard 4:48

I feel very strongly that when you go through this process, uh especially with an EOS implementer, but if you even try to do this on your own, the rule of thumb is structure first, people second. And so let me describe what that means. But please remember structure first, people second. Like I feel like a teacher. Write that down, it's gonna be on the midterms, it's gonna be on the quiz.

Richard Piet 5:12

I'm writing it.

Michele Mollard 5:13

You are writing, I love it. Um so let's talk about it, right? And so when people go and make org charts, and even if you attempt to make an accountability chart, you're gonna say, Well, Richard is with me, and Michele has it, and then Bob is with me, and this person's in the HR, and this person's in sales, and I'm the owner. When we do this, we are sitting with owners, we are sitting with multiple owners, we are sitting with people that have been there 10, 15, 20 years. And I say to them, every single implementer says to them, not one of you has a job. Every single one of you is a board of directors, not one of you have a seat in this accountability chart at all yet. And we're gonna do what does the we're, you know, if we're a $10 million uh manufacturing company, what does the company need? What structure, what seats, what not people, right? What seats, what's functions does this company need in order to execute at $10 million? And that looks different than when it used to look like when we were $5 million or what we will look like when we're 15 million. And so when we do that and we have no personalities, no egos, no history, no nothing, it makes them stop and think and be like, okay, at 10 million, I haven't had really a finance guy or a girl. I've just been doing it as the owner. And I'm like, do you still want to? Does that what that company needs? At 10 million, you have zero budget. You don't even know what your operating budget is. And they're like, nope. And I'm like, I think it's about time you uh grow up. I don't mean it like derogatory, right? But grow into a $10 million company, accept that you're in a very nice size company and get these seats or these functions that you really need, right? And so when we do that, we play that out. In the world of EOS, we have a visionary. I'll explain some of this a little bit. We have an integrator, and then we'll have sales and marketing. Sometimes they're broken into two seats, right? Two different functions, but sometimes they're combined, one person overseeing both. Then there's operations, or sometimes there's two, right? Field operations and manufacturing operations. Then there's the sometimes a finance seat. Sometimes if it's a really big company, HR is at the seat of the table. And so what you're building at this first layer is what we call the leadership team. And so we're really looking at that and saying, what are the functions that

Visionary And Integrator Roles

Michele Mollard 7:27

are the leaders that we need in this organization to run this? So let me just touch on the visionary and integrator seat as we're doing this. Visionary sometimes is the owner. I've had plenty of companies, I have two of them right now that the visionary is not the owner, they are the integrator. And so the visionary is the person that has 20 ideas, that is a big thinker, always driving forward, be like, I got something new, I got something new, I got something new. They love research and development, they love getting involved in the industry, but they're also not great at holding people accountable. And then when I say that, people like, oh, that's harsh. And then the room giggles because the one that is the visionary goes, Oh, that's so me. I don't like doing that. And so they know themselves. Um, and so it's very apparent when it comes out. The integrator is the person that loves to hold people accountable. They love to get a great idea from the visionary and say, I got you, and I will harmonize and orchestrate all the moving parts from marketing to sales to operations to finance to execute on your vision. They integrate all the ideas through the organization that is not the COO in our world. Right? So the COO is very much chief of operations, siloed in operations, integrator overseas sales, marketing, operations, HR, IT, finance, whatever those are. So I want to stop there because I can see your head thinking of things to ask.

Richard Piet 8:51

They they are. Uh it it's turning. So I I would suspect the the difficult part of this is separating the people out of it and looking at what, as you put it, what the company needs in terms of structure, personnel structure, right? And so many times, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, yeah, we create that structure based on the strengths of the person, or there there's never been a view of that seat without that person.

Michele Mollard 9:26

This has gotta be tough. It's really tough in family-run businesses.

Richard Piet 9:30

Yeah, especially.

Family Business Traps And Tough Calls

Michele Mollard 9:31

Right? Because maybe the owner could say, like, but the firstborn son or firstborn daughter or whoever is most charismatic says you get to sit in the sales seat, right? The one that's the you know, kind of deep thinker numbers girl guy. Well, you get to be in the finance seat. And so I always joke with my family-run businesses, your family tree, right? Again, idea family tree, it should not look like your accountability chart at all. And so that's a hard one to think about because family trees, right? It it mom, dad, firstborn, secondborn, thirdborn, right? There is a pecking order. Yeah, that is not the case. Meaning the youngest could be the most dynamic person and wired perfectly to run this business well better than your oldest son or daughter. Or right, and so we have to also keep that in strike. And so there is no people, and I'll tell you, Richard, it is a fun, I love this um exercise. It's about a two-hour exercise, sometimes three, when we do this. And then it's like, but Bob, and I look at them and they go, Oh, the marketing seat, and then we'll talk about the marketing seat, the marketing seat, the function of it. And then they're like, But Bob, and I'm like, and they're like, Oh, I don't like this, and it's fun, right? Because they haven't looked at it like that, because personalities make things happen, and we've made the seat around Bob's skill set, not what the company needs. And so Bob has grown up with us in the marketing seat, doing a great job, but now this has to go to the next level. We've gone from five million to 10, and Bob may still be there, and Bob may be able to grow into the seat, but he's got to grow into the seat because the seat has gotten bigger. This box, this, you know, if you think about the accountability chart or an org chart, this box has gotten bigger and we need more execution out of that marketing seat or that marketing function. And so then when we go and say, okay, let's have the conversation about putting Bob there, yes, we need the seat, let's talk about it. Oftentimes Bob's in the room. Uh, I will say that 90% of the time, those people are in the room and they don't have all that it takes. And so a lot of people are doing a little bit of like, oh, am I getting fired today? It's happened. I've had people walk out of that room because they don't have a seat at the table. Or there's a lot of going to be asked of them and they choose to not go through that path. And so it's really hard, really, really hard day, really an emotionally charged day as we go through that. But ultimately, in the end, there's not one client. You know, that day it was always tough, but they would call me maybe a week later, maybe, maybe even 30 days later, going, I get it now. I get it now. I see that I, you know, what got me here is not gonna get me there, right? And so I've got to make sure that I've got a different structure and different people. Now, Bob may be the perfect person. And then I say, Okay, Bob, you know, you know this much, I need you to know this much. And he goes, I got you, I'll figure it out. Great, right? He goes to school, he goes online, he whatever, right? He just does all the things, YouTube, I come in there, whatever it might be. I I I got you, and then watch them soar. Those are those high performers that you watch that fill that box. It's awesome to watch.

Richard Piet 12:33

This is incredible. I am wondering how over the preponderance of these discussions you have, changes don't happen. They must happen more at times than not.

Michele Mollard 12:46

Uh, I'll say this. You're absolutely right, they must happen. There have been times, I'm thinking of one client in particular, they brought all of their people against my advisement that they thought were gonna be on the leadership team, all seven of them. And I am saying there is somebody that is not, if not two, that are not gonna be here in the end. And that's a really tough day. They'll still be employed, but they're not gonna be at the leadership team level. So they in their mind just got demoted, right? And so I just heed in the conversation if there's any parts of that that's on the fence, that they just don't come into this planning session uh and that that we do it without them. And then we go, hey, by the way, you made the cut. Congratulations, you are at the leadership team level. And it's easier that way than it is the other way. And we can solve it in a day, it can be done. Um, but yeah, there's there's been a lot of conversations that the one that I'm thinking of, they absolutely, I told them they did it, they absolutely made the accountability chart based on personalities. And uh, two of them are no longer on that team. I'm uh nine months in. And they're like, you're absolutely right, Michele. And two of them are no longer on the leadership team. So they get there eventually, right? That you know, as I shared with everybody, we are facilitators, coaches, and teachers. I'm not a consultant. And what I say doesn't go, it's not a mandatory. I just share with them, like, hey, here's the mirror. When you guys do this, there's gonna be a problem. I don't know when it's gonna show up, and I'm not gonna, I don't know when you're gonna deal with it, but it's gonna show up and it did and proves it like that. So even if they do choose to do it, against my advisement, uh 100% of the time, in my six-year journey now, 100% of the time it has come back around and they have rectified it.

Five Roles And Clear Ownership

Richard Piet 14:28

So this results in the accountability chart that then makes it clearer what you need in what positions.

Michele Mollard 14:36

Absolutely. And so those five roles, right? So no more than five, there can be less, but in those five roles, if they don't have a job description, that's where they can start from. And so, like topic number one, topic number two, think about like an outline, right? So Roman numeral one, Roman numeral two, those Roman numerals are your five bullet points. And then all of the details that you want to put in there go on the job description. If you already have a job description, look at that and squish it, right? And get these five big bullets. And so some companies don't have job descriptions, and we do it this way and we work backwards, or they do and we squish them and we get these five roles. Some of you have heard me say this, um, and some of you won't like this term, but I am gonna be genuine in who I am. I want one throat to choke. And I don't mean that mean, derogatory, anything. So please don't read into that. But we are highly, highly, highly driven on companies that want to have accountability. So I want one person to hold accountable. I don't want to guess who to go to. And so if it's in sales, I'm coming to Richard. And if it's in finance, I'm coming to Bob and I'm coming to marketing. Um I know exactly where I'm going to get the answers I need as a leader in this organization and even as an employee, right? So sometimes your employee will come to you as your boss and say, Hey, my payroll was wrong. Don't come to me. Look at the accountability chart. Who does payroll? Oh, Joe does payroll. Perfect. Go to Joe. I don't need to, I don't, right? I got other things to do. Not that I don't want to take care of my employees, but this is the the L the delegation of things that we need to get off of our plates that need to go to the person because that person in HR can solve it in seconds. I'm gonna have to call them anyway. So what's the point? And so this does not create silos. So there's two other points I just want to make. This doesn't create silos either, right? It's just a it's a reporting structure and an accountability structure. But if I need something from marketing, I just go. If I need something from sales, I go. Finance, HR, IT, I go. I go into who I need to go to. I don't have to go up the chain, over the chain, and back down and verp. Nope. None of that. Right.

Richard Piet 16:38

So it declutters who's responsible for what.

Michele Mollard 16:43

Yeah, and it gives clarity. Not only declutters it, it gives clarity, right? And so there's there's it's just it's finally clear enough to say, I know that is that, right? And so if because we don't see two people's job descriptions, right? I mean, as the owners we do, right? Maybe the whole leadership team does, but if I'm, you know, a first shift supervisor, I don't know what everybody does or how it is. Now I know literally in the accountability chart. I saw I worked for a company, there was uh 400 employees. The accountability chart was massive, it was printed on a plotter and it was up in every break room, every room, every shift, everybody had access to it, everything. Like some people didn't always have computers, like most of us that had computers had it on there, but we had lots of warehouse guys that didn't put it there. All they need to know is be like, who's the new guy? Oh, Jim. Oh, he sits over here. Oh, that's kind of cool. So it also starts to sit, you know, play out all the players that are in there. It's just it's a phenomenal roadmap.

Richard Piet 17:33

Yes. And without it, someone might be inclined to just go to the big boss and say, I've got this problem.

Michele Mollard 17:39

Absolutely. And as we grow, right? So smaller organizations, everybody's used to going to the big boss. And this is one of the harder parts, too, is that the big boss is getting bogged down and also likes to do it because they like to be the hero, the savior. They want to have all the answers, guys. Uh, and if you are that, you're wonderful, but you're gonna have to figure out how to delegate stuff off your plate and they're gonna have to go to somebody else to get their answers. And that's a major cultural shift. I could run on in another podcast about what visionaries should do and how they can keep the culture still alive and keep family-feeling cultures, not big business cultures, even as you get to a hundred million dollar company. I worked for a company that's a hundred million bucks and it felt like family. Absolutely. And uh we can maybe do that in another podcast, Richard. So one last thing, because I know we're

Delegation Without Silos Or Micromanaging

Michele Mollard 18:24

getting on time too. The one thing that I do want to share, this also stops micromanagement. Because I know what everybody's doing and I know it how it, and then it's so it ties. And if you've been listening to this, we're on podcasts, I don't know, 34 or something like that. It ties to the scorecard, it ties to the process component, it ties to core values. Like there's so much of this that ties together that it is clear, clear, clear what I'm expecting of people. And when they don't deliver on it, it's not me stepping the weeds and be like, I need to hold their hand or hold them, you know, like micromanage them. It's clear. I've told you how I've trained you. You know, again, I've been told, I've been called the hatchet woman before. I'm I'm happily owning that, but you're gone because I've been so clear. I never like letting anybody go. Never, ever, ever, ever. Even if it's the most dysfunctional person around, it still hurts. They're humans, right? But I know in my good conscience, based on my accountability chart and many other things, that I am clear on the expectations I'm asking of them and they just can't deliver on them. And that's okay. They can deliver them somewhere else, right? And I wish them all the luck and will even help. I've helped many people get new jobs uh that have left my organizations.

Richard Piet 19:38

All right. Well, as my grandfather used to say, how's that grab you? Is this giving you some impressions as it relates to your own organization that now is stirring up some questions?

Reach Out And Closing Remarks

Richard Piet 19:53

Yeah, contact information. Yeah, go ahead.

Michele Mollard 19:55

Sorry, Richard. Yeah, I just wanted to say, like, if you guys uh I know you always say this too, Richard, reach out. I'm being funny. Some of you have, a lot of you don't. He goes, I would love to do this. Be like, hey, Michele, I listened to your podcast, and here's what I think I got, like as an accountability chart. And let's get on a phone call for a half an hour, whatever that might be. I can give you so many insight in a half an hour. I would love that opportunity. So when we do the accountability chart when we companies go through EOS, they do this on their first day. They don't do vision first. We do people and structure first, because if we build a vision that is phenomenal and we don't have the people or the structure, it's like building a six-story house on a cardboard basement. This is your basement. You need the foundation of it. Call me if you need me. I know you always do that, Richard, but I do really want to have a passionate plea. Like, I love this stuff. I would love to jam around somebody's accountability chart and be like, so I don't know if this is right. I love it.

Richard Piet 20:49

I don't have to say any more. Contact information's in the show notes. Click through and make the appointment with Michele today. Traction for your workplace goals. Michele Mollard is a certified EOS implementer. Follow us, subscribe to this podcast, and we'll be back soon. Take care.