Standing Where Justice Breaks | Street to Strategy #14 - Bryan Pinto

Hi, I’m Jay McWilliams – a 25-year law enforcement veteran, U.S. Navy veteran, educator, and master storyteller.

On Street to Strategy, I dive deep into conversations with former law enforcement officers, sharing raw experiences, life lessons, and the strategies that helped us transition from the streets to new paths in life.

With a background in education and motivation, I bring not just stories – but powerful insights that can inspire, educate, and connect with anyone navigating change or seeking purpose.

I’m highly educated, highly motivated, and I believe my story – and the stories of those I speak with – will resonate with many.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Okay, folks, we are back. This is episode 14 of Street to Strategy. Um, I wanted to let you guys know that uh a few of my books come in. So this is a copy of my book. It's on Amazon right now. Uh, $8.90 per copy. Pick yourself up a copy. Good read. Uh let's get started. So today's guest is a man whose entire professional life has been dedicated to truth, justice, and the pursuit of facts when the stakes are at their highest. He is a licensed private investigator, the owner and chief investigator of Central California investigations, and one of the most experienced defense investigators in California's Central Valley. With more than two gate, two decades of experience spanning law enforcement, instruction, and high-level criminal defense investigations, he brings a rare and powerful perspective to the work he does. Before founding his own investigative firm, he served as a police officer with both the Los Angeles Police Department and the Vicella Police Department, where he worked patrol, trained new officers as a field training officer, served on the DUI team, and became a respected instructor in defense tactics. He has also dedicated years to youth services and community-based policing, shaping the next generation through his work as a school resource officer and explorer advisor. Beyond the streets, he is an educator at heart. He has taught at the police academies and colleges and developed training curricula for security professionals and holds multiple state certifications as an instructor in baton, taser, pepper spray, and defense tactics. His academic journey is just as impressive, with advanced degrees in criminal justice and an ongoing doctoral work focused on public safety and policy and social change. As a defense investigator, he has served as a lead investigator on an extraordinary number of serious and capital murder cases, including state and federal death penalty cases. He is also a recognized expert in police procedures and has provided expert testimony in multiple court proceedings. His work has earned him accommodations, statewide awards, and the trust of defense teams across California. But more than titles and credentials, he stands for integrity, relentless preparation, and an unshakable commitment to the truth. It's an honor to welcome my guest today, Brian Pinto. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Thanks for having me, Jay.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Man, that's a lot. Too much. It's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 3:20

I was like, who is that guy?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

When you look back on your childhood, where do you see the earliest seeds of the man you eventually became and what moments or environments shaped you long before you ever put on the badge?

SPEAKER_04 3:38

So when I was growing up, I remember in second grade they asked us to draw a picture of what we wanted to be when we grew up. And obviously I drew a police officer. And I was too young then, but as I got older into high school and really got focused in what I wanted to do with my career going into law enforcement, I joined the Fresno County Sheriff's Department Explorer program. And my parents are hippies. Okay. Big time liberal hippies.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

So are they still alive?

SPEAKER_04 4:06

Yeah, they're still alive. Um and I think when they were looking at me going into law enforcement, like, who is this boy? But I was also at that age when I was younger running around, and my great-grandpa used to call me the little Republican of the family. Okay. Um, my politics have changed. We're not going to talk about that. But um uh, you know, I I grew up in a very loving household that maybe wasn't, you know, they weren't guiding me towards law enforcement. It was, but it was something I was interested in. Yeah. So um I would be that boy that would come home and watch cops every Saturday night, you know, record all the episodes, join the Explorer program. And once I joined the Explorer program and started going on ride-along and learning more about law enforcement, I knew that that's what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Gotcha. Was there a single moment growing up when the idea of law enforcement or investigation stopped being a vague thought and became a true calling? Because I think we all have that moment. I know I did.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Yeah, I think my moment was the first ride-along that I ever went on. And riding along with that deputy, it was in the metro area of Fresno. So we were in the city but in the county islands, and going to the calls and and getting to watch that deputy conduct investigations, conduct interviews, trying to find out what happened. I knew that that's what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

You remember the deputy's name?

SPEAKER_04 5:28

I don't remember that deputy's name, but I will tell you one of the next deputies I rode with was our former police chief, Colleen Mestis. Okay. When I was 16 years old, she was a patrol deputy in the Metro Division of Fresno County, and I went on a ride along with her. That's who they put me with that day. That's when I first met her. And I and she was a go-getter back then. So she was driving fast, hand on her gun the whole time, you know, and I said, That's how I want to be. Well, and you know, there she's actually on an episode of Cops.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

I saw that one where they're like out in some field somewhere. Um, you know, so small world, man. It's so weird. And you know, this the older you get, you realize everything is so connected. It really is, man. It is. Um, who were the people, either family, mentors, even adversaries, who shaped your moral compass and nudged you toward the life of service?

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Definitely my parents. Um, they're still married today. They're they just had we just had their 50th wedding anniversary party in October at my house. Um, they instilled in me and my brother and sister, you know, do the right thing, um, be kind to people, um, you know, don't get into trouble. And they, you know, they made it.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

What type of work did they do?

SPEAKER_04 6:41

Uh my dad was a winemaker. Okay. And I was actually one of the first males on my dad's side of the family to break tradition and not work at a winery. Oh, wow. So um his my entire, you know, all my cousins older that are older than me, all my uncles, they all worked in the wine industry.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_04 6:57

And then my mom worked with special ed kids, uh autistic kids for Fresno Unified.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

That's a calling, too, man. That is a true calling. Anybody who does anything special ed, I'll tell you a couple of things. God bless them. Not the easiest gig, but that is a true calling.

SPEAKER_04 7:15

That is. I volunteered a couple summers during summer school to go help out with the kids, and every day I left, I was like, how do you do this?

SPEAKER_02 7:22

There's no way. No way. 100%, dude. You know what? I mean, I sub sometimes, and every time I walk away from a school, I'm like, never again. You know what I mean? Uh before your first academy day, even before the uniform, before expectations, who were you at your core?

SPEAKER_04 7:44

I was a hardworking. Someone that I was hardworking. I was someone that was always interested in finding out about things. I was always curious. I was always someone who wanted to if something was presented to me, I wanted to get to where it came from. Yeah. How did how'd we get here? You know, what caused this to happen or or what caused the situation to happen. Um so very curious. Very um, what type of work?

SPEAKER_02 8:16

What type of work were you doing before?

SPEAKER_04 8:19

So my first job was delivering newspapers when I was 14. Don't ever do that. Oh, yeah. And we don't have that anymore, but that was the hardest job I ever did. There was something that used to be called a newspaper. Yeah. Every morning getting up at 4 a.m. was not fun when I was a teenager. But when I was 16, I started working at McDonald's. Okay. And when I was 18, they made me a shift manager. Okay. So McDonald's was my only other job before going into law enforcement. And um, so I had a lot of responsibility already as a manager at 18 years old.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Um you know what? And I will tell you something, man. Fast food is that's a hard gig, but that as far as customer service, that's going to teach you a ton about people. I did customer service selling clothes, and it was in value by the by the time I became a cop. Because we already kind of knew how to talk to people. And, you know, anybody who does customer service, I don't care where you do it, not the easiest gig because you're dealing with people, and for some reason, I don't know where it comes in our society, but when you're providing customer service to people, there's just this thing where love people love to just basically shit on people that do customer service. And I always hated it. And but I think it really taught me how to talk to people, and I'm sure it did the same for you.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

Right. I mean, it it helped. I would say one of my weaknesses when I was a teenager is I was very quiet, kind of shy. So going to talk to strangers or having to deal with situations was something I definitely had to learn. And I think that job, being an explorer at the Explorer Post and Fresno, that all helped me kind of break out of my shell for sure. And start talking to people now. I don't have any issue with you know, we've talked to thousands of people at this point. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Um walk us into your mindset mindset the day you stepped into the Los Angeles Police Academy in 1999. What did you believe about police work and what were you terrified you might discover?

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Okay, so I'm gonna backtrack a little bit. Okay. When I applied at LAPD, I was 20 and a half years old. And you could go to LA and do what was called out-of-town testing. Since I didn't live down there, I could go do all my testing in a week. They did your background, they did your, you know, polygraph, your medical, everything in a week. Well, at the same time, I had also applied at CHP and went through the same process with them. The first week of January 99, I get two letters in the mail. LAPD and CHP, both offering me jobs. So I had to make a strangle you for not taking that chippy job. Well, I'm sure we'll get to it, but I have two if I had two regrets in law enforcement. The first one was maybe I should have picked CHP because I'd probably still be working over on the coast somewhere. Yeah. Or maybe up in the mountains somewhere with a cushion job. But um, I had never really lived outside of my house until I was 21. So here I am, taking the job at LAPD, moving to Los Angeles to go to the police academy. My parents had still done my laundry. Yeah, you know, I was I mean, I wasn't spoiled. They made me work, as we, you know, we just talked about, but I was going into LA, knowing that that academy had the reputation of being the tough, one of the toughest academies in the world. Um, and then kind of getting the outline of the first day you're going to show up in your suit, have you know, have everything ready, and walking into that academy was exactly what I thought it was going to be. A lot of yelling, a lot of screaming.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Oh, yeah. That's a very high stress academy. I would tell you something that you know what I mean, different times, man. But see, I try to get hired after OJ. And dude, I mean, it was like I even though I went in there and just nailed those interviews, they almost gave me this look like, this ain't happening, dude. Right. You know what I mean? Because that was 95. Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

And they were still doing that in 99. So um I got lucky. They gave me bonus points for the explorer experience. Oh, good for you. So I had scored 95 on my interview and then got 10 plus points for being an explorer. So I had 105 out of 100 on my oral interview. Good for you, man. So, but and not being political, not saying anything, but I was one of the few white people in my academy class. I believe that.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

I totally believe that. Um, yeah, you know, it was cool, man. I had a background investigator from um LAPD, and uh, he called me up one day and he was like, you know what, kid? He goes, I'm gonna give you a no shitter, man. He goes, You're just you're the wrong color at the wrong time. And he goes, it's bullshit. I hate to say it. He goes, Nobody's gonna send you a letter saying it's affirmative action. He goes, but I'm just gonna give it to you straight. He's like, come back in a few years. Man, dude, it it hurt, dude. It hurt. You know, I got the same thing for the chippies. Um what did winning the Tina Corbett Award for Excellence mean to you at graduation, especially as a new officer standing among the best of LAPD? That must have been that must have been cool, dude.

SPEAKER_04 13:13

It it was cool.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

So when I got hired Is that academics, or what was that?

SPEAKER_04 13:17

That was for most enthusiastic and most improved cadet.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

So where I had to improve is when I got hired at LAPD, I weighed about 125 pounds. Yeah. I was a toothpick. And so my physical strength was not there. Yeah. So I was struggling on some of this stuff, you know, having to do five pull-ups and a hundred push-ups and sit in push-up position and stuff like that was was difficult. Yeah. So one of the things I had to work on in the academy was my physical strength and getting into shape. And I did that, and I stayed positive during that. And that was an award voted on by your classmates. Okay. So I had no idea I was gonna get that award. And the day of academy, like, okay, here's who's getting the award. So this is when you're gonna come up. And they told me, and I was I was shocked, yeah, but proud of what I did because I overcame the struggle at first to finish, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Also, man, I mean, dude, that academy, man, that's a that's a live in, right? No. Oh, no. No, we went home overnight. Okay, went home. Okay. Uh, but yeah, that academy, even back then, I mean, everybody can't everybody and their mama kind of knew it. Chippies, LAPD, uh, Orange County Sheriffs, LA County, those are rough academies, man. High stress.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

Uh, we had to earn everything in it. I mean, from getting out of our suits to be in the cadet uniform to wearing our our belts and our equipment. I mean, you had to earn everything was a test and a step that you had to pass.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Well, back then, how long was that academy?

SPEAKER_04 14:43

It was seven months. Okay. That's a long time. So they they added a month because you had to learn the LAPD policies. Okay. And in that academy, the first day of the academy, they swear you in right there. So you're an LAPD employee right then, and we had to sign our five-year contract that we wouldn't leave early. Got it. Which I broke.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Uh paint us a picture of your very first day on the street, and what's detailed, what's like one specific thing that you'll never forget.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Okay, I'm gonna compare it to something because I think a lot of people that probably watch a show of law enforcement, you've all we've all watched end of watch for sure. The movie and the way they treat the boot in that show, 100% accurate. Yeah. So you gotta wear long sleeves, you gotta wear your tie. I walk into the briefing room, lo and behold, there's donuts at the front um counter, you know, and I'm like, okay. And nobody's talking to you. You gotta sit in the front row and you feel completely alienated with all the senior officers, and you see, you know, hash marks going up their sleeves. I was in the North Hollywood division, and spoke, speak when spoken to. I made the mistake of sitting in going to the second row to sit in somebody's seat, and I they let me have it. Um, I got assigned, I got lucky. I got assigned to a pretty, I would say, friendly FTO. He came and greeted me in the locker room beforehand, kind of told me what his expectations were gonna be. Um, but it was just like that, you know, the just like that movie that we just talked about. You know, go get the equipment, go get the car ready, they're yelling at you, they're not asking you. They're yeah, yeah, yeah. Speak when spoken to. And it was tough. It was tough.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah. Um, well, and what's interesting is I used to used to kid around with Brian a lot for the folks at home because he was you were on a couple episodes of LAPD life on the beat. I was, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

Nothing crazy, nothing special, but small segment chests.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Uh, but that's you know what? I mean, that's actually a cool thing because you know what, bro? I don't know if you have those episodes recorded somewhere, but you know, I mean, just to know that you were on a show of that caliber, I mean, that's that's gotta be pretty cool. It was. You know what I mean? And um I've I've often said this, and I'm sure you think the same. For a lot of years, LAPD was kind of the gold standard of law enforcement, and everybody kind of copied LAPD. I think they've lost a step in these past few years, but um it's still, I mean, anybody that polices in that city, uh, God bless them, because that's a tough city to police big time. There was. Um policing in the late 90s was a different world. What stands out most when you compare that era to today's law enforcement culture?

SPEAKER_04 17:27

I think there's a lot of things different. Um, one thing is going back to the way we started, I don't think law enforcement agencies, especially LAPD, could treat their rookies like they treat now. Oh, no way. It would not work. You know, people, you know, uh the new generation's feelings would be hurt, but you get sued for some of the things that were said to me or or attorneys and stuff like that. You can't talk to people on the streets like we used to talk to people. Oh no. You know, if if you told somebody to shut the fuck up, which was one of my favorite lines to use with the gangster, because they're not gonna understand anything else.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

They do not understand pretty pleased with sugar on top.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

Exactly. Um, you know, uh it's just a whole different, you know, touchy-feely thing now.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

It it it it is. Um I think I'm all for being professional, but you know this, man. When we're dealing with hardcore crooks, hardcore crooks do not understand sir, please. They understand sit your ass down before you get smacked. And um for you, you were one of the first openly gay officers in the departments known for being intensely macho. What was the emotional reality of being yourself in a culture that almost wasn't even ready for that? Well, LAPD has got to be better than Vicea with that.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Yeah, so LAPD, I mean, there was tons of openly gay officers. When I worked, I worked in North Hollywood division for my probationary year. On one shift, at one time, there were seven of us that were openly gay, not an issue. We had our own, you know, union group. Everybody was supportive. I decided I wanted to come back home to the valley. My my parents don't have the greatest health. I was coming home on a lot of my days off to see my friends back in Fresno. And so I applied at Viselia PD. And I probably should have noticed that there was a church on every corner in the city of Visalia. So I was like, okay, maybe, you know, maybe this isn't a good idea, but I did it because I was told there was another gay officer there. Yeah. Um and so coming to Viselia, I felt like I had to prove myself. Oh, for sure. Um, and I even felt that way at LAPD. I think that there's a a stigma when it comes to gay male police officers that, oh, maybe they're not tough, maybe they're they can't handle themselves or they're too touchy-feely. I don't see that problem with female gay officers because generally, you know, women are lesbian women are looked at as macho and manly and stuff like that. So I always felt like I had to go one step ahead of everybody else. I had to work harder, I had to prove that if we're gonna get in a fight, I can handle it. If we had a situation, I can handle it. So that was always in the back of my mind on whatever I could do.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Yeah, and for the folks at home, I don't know if you remember this, but I think it was your first day or second day, they had you come ride with me. And so you get in the car, we're driving around, and uh, I'll never forget this. You go, it was like 10, 20 minutes where you're like, hey, I just don't know if you know this, but uh I'm gay, and I don't know if you remember this, but I said, no shit, right? And I go, I because honestly, bro, as long as you're a good cop, and I think, you know, me and you, we've always been friends because I never treated you different because you were gay, and I didn't care. I cared that to the fact you're a good cop and you treated me good. Uh, but you know, there was I think there was at one time, I think I counted it, but at one time I think there were six police officers that were alternative lifestyle at that time. Right. You know, you, Corey, was having a couple, yeah, Jim, uh, Amy. There was yeah, so there was a just there was a whole other group of people. And it didn't matter to us. It mattered that, hey, can I count on you to jump the fence and help me fight these gangsters? That's what I care about, right? And and I think that's that's something that kind of solidified our relationship. And we were, you know, then we went to YSO school together, and that was just another part of it. But again, it's like uh, yeah, there's never been no stigma that for you that I ever thought, oh, he can't do this job. You were always legit, and you were right in there fighting with us, and that's all that matters to us. If I can count on you to save my life if I need it, that's what I need to know, right? Right. Um, you worked in North Hollywood, Wilshire, and even served in the mobile field force during the 2000 Democratic National Convention. What do those environments teach you about chaos, control, and courage?

SPEAKER_04 21:56

So North Hollywood um was a very Very good training ground because they had a little bit of everything. We had the Hollywood Hills where we would get dispatched to um famous people's houses. I've been, you know, I've dealt with Damon Wayans, John Goodman.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:11

Uh the biggest party I ever had to break up was at the Scorpions Rock Band match, and it took us like three hours to clear that party. It was crazy. But then it also had the bad part, the ghetto, yeah, as as you know, as we called it. And my first homicide scene was in that area, and it was a bunch of uh Mexican nationals who had been drinking all night and they got into a big fight, and three people are dead in the apartment. Oh wow. Uh, all killed with beer bottles because of the colour. Oh wow. Just cracking each other. Oh, you know, there's it looked like a movie scene. There's sprays of blood on the roof dripping down. Um, one of them was in the bathtub and it was half full of blood. And that was my first homicide scene I ever had to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

And that's what I was like, what the hell am I doing? So that was a good training ground. North Hollywood had the reputation of being the toughest for new officers that they were known for being the toughest FTO program out of the 18 divisions. Um, had no problems. Uh my last FTO, her last name was Ford. So get that joke, Ford Pinto. That was a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you were you working nights, days? They would mix, we we would change their deployment periods were every month. So every month we would get a new um we'd stay on the same shift, but we'd have to pick our days off and stuff. But it but they rotated from mid to to days and swings and is night shift is a two-man unit, days shift.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Everything is two every oh LEPD is always two-man units.

SPEAKER_04 23:34

Yeah, the only one-man unit is you'd be get assigned to as the report writing call car, and you were supposed to only go take cold car calls or go back up a two-man unit, but you weren't supposed to be dispatched to calls by yourself or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Um what was the shift like going from one of the nation's largest police agencies to Vic L U PD? And what changed your approach to the job?

SPEAKER_04 23:59

Okay, so my first day at Vicele Upd, I walk into briefing and there's three of us and a sergeant. Okay. And I'm like, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Yeah, because back there, where were you where were you guys on there?

SPEAKER_04 24:11

We had like 25 people on a shift. Oh, yeah. Um, and plus we had overlapping shifts. So there was 30 or 40 of us out there in the division at one time. Um, and here, you know, a city with a hundred thousand people in it.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

And it's they shift and it's me. Uh, do you remember Al Nava?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Oh, very well.

SPEAKER_04 24:27

And another officer who um broke off, who was my uh FTO initially, and a sergeant and one other officer, I don't remember who that was. And I was like, this is it for the whole city.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

This is it. So Running call to call to call. Going call to call to call. And it was one thing I had to learn, and it was kind of it wasn't hard to learn on FTO because there wasn't, and I I don't mean this to sound arrogant, but there wasn't a lot of teeth to teach me at this point, except the policies of Iso PD.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yeah, you already knew how to be a cop. We're just showing you the Vice A way.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

But I had to learn to be a cop without a partner all the time, which is different because if you have a good partner and you stick with that partner, like I did my last half of training, the last six months of your first year, you're with an FTO, but you're not getting evaluated every day. But she's technically still your FTO. I knew what she was gonna do, she knew what I was gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Let me ask you this. How long were you at Vice? I mean LA P D. Two and a half years. Okay. And just so the move prompted because you just want to be close to the back.

SPEAKER_04 25:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Why didn't you go to Fresno PD?

SPEAKER_04 25:29

They weren't hiring at the time. Um LA was gonna pay for me to go to the academy. I didn't want to go to college. I get it. I get it. Um, so I think one of the biggest things I had to learn on training here was to work by myself, not to have a somebody in the car with me all the time.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah, no, and you know, uh I've often said this, and I'm, you know, I don't know if you think this, but I think Vice does it better than most. I really do. I mean, you know, good vehicles, good equipment, good officers. But you're you're right, man. There's a lot of times we're just by ourselves. I mean, yeah, if your Phil can clear and get to you, then great. If not, you're right. You're doing a lot of this by yourself. Um, what did patrol work reveal to you about human behavior that no classroom ever could?

SPEAKER_04 26:16

Well, when I first started LAPD, it gave me a quick lesson on how humanity was. Because I think that people that don't get to see what we got to see for all those years, or you know, I still see it even with the work I do now, is how mean some people are. Um just bad things happen.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

I've often said this, and I'm sure you think it there are evil people on this planet. And a lot of times we can't we had to go toe-to-toe with evil people.

SPEAKER_04 26:51

I agree to a point. My view on that now, doing what I do now, I have a little bit different of an opinion on why people do the things they do and and and stuff like that. But I think you know, learning that people are out for themselves, people are out to you know, survive basically, however that is, um was hard for me at first because you know, I uh you know, I grew up in Fresno with a loving family, went to Bullard High School, which is kind of known to be one of the uppity high schools in Fresno. And yeah, and here I am, this little white boy learning how society and humanity really is.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

I don't, you know, and I've said this many times, and people are shocked when they say this, but there's a lot of truth to this. I was born white, raised black, drive German, dress Italian, you know what I mean? And I grew up in bad neighborhoods. And for whatever reason at the time I hated it because, you know, obviously poverty poverty sucks. I don't care who you are. But I look back on those times were invaluable to me because once I got to the streets, I'd already been in a lot of fights. I didn't have, I wasn't scared to go toe-to-toe with people. And I think, and I'm sure you saw it too, training new cops. I mean, when I would train new officers, one of the first things I would say is, Have you ever been in a fight? It would shock me that these cops would tell me no. I was one of those cops.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

I never got in there in a fight until I mean I got in a lot, no way. I mean, that was a oh, yeah, they were always down there. Yeah, and I had a lot here too, but that was you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

No, it's so true. There's a I think, you know, and I don't know if you think this, but we do. We get to see because I tell people you can you can look at it on TV, you can read it in the newspaper, but man, when you're there and you're experiencing this stuff, uh, I know we've both had calls where we walk away just going, Did I really just see this? You know what I mean? And it is intense. And I think um, you know, uh when I see people that want to disrespect police officers, I get really pissed off because I'm like, listen, uh, you don't realize uh the emotional toll that this job takes on people. And the me and you've seen multiple homicides, plus all the sex crimes we had to work and all these other things. Dude, it's not all fun and games out here. And then the final analysis of all of it, it's really a mind fuck to everybody, every cop that I ever knew. And I'm and I'm I know you think that as well.

SPEAKER_04 29:21

I do. Uh but I think a lot of those thoughts always happen afterwards. For sure. Wait, in the in the in the moment, yeah, yeah. In the moment, you're you know, you're the hero, and then you know, two hours later you're thinking, what the hell did we just do or have to deal with?

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Oh, yeah. That was terrible. I had this ritual, I would get ready the same way every day. You know, shower, uniform went on the same way, and that's how I transferred I transitioned from Jay to Officer McWilliams. When I would get home, I had this thing. I would go and I'd sit in the bathtub for about 30 minutes, and there was multiple times where I sat in that bathtub and cried. Or just sitting there staring off into outer space, going, Did I just see this? You know, I don't know if you had similar things, dude.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

You know. I did, maybe to not to that extreme, because I feel like I can I compart my I set things aside real easily and and kind of erase them from my head. But I think I have more of those thoughts now looking back for sure. Um and I I have a lot of those thoughts now with the work I do. Oh yeah. Um because I'm you know, when we get to it, you know, I'm yeah, yeah, I'm dealing with people's lives that have messed up. Yeah, and and there's sometimes there's no going back from those mess ups.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Yeah, no, I agree. Um as a field training officer, you were responsible for shaping brand new officers. What did that responsibility teach you about mentorship and leadership?

SPEAKER_04 30:59

It was hard at first. Um, well, I don't want to say it was hard. It was difficult because my expectations were always too high. I expected them, they needed to be me. Yeah. You know, day two. They needed to know what to do, be hardworking, be aggressive, you know, know the law, know know what you can and can't do, know what a bad guy looks like, what a bad guy doesn't look like. So I think the hard part for me was was lowering those expectations and having to learn how to teach that and instill that in someone. I wish I knew what I knew now back when I was an FTO. Oh, yeah. Because I would be a hundred times better than I was.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Dude, I was a field training officer, and you know what my Achilles Hill is? Patience. I didn't have the patience. I don't know. And I and I look back on it now, and I'm like you. There's just times, a lot of times, I don't know about you, I just take over and be like, all right, watch me. You know what I mean? And that's that's not good for for training people because people need to learn how to do this stuff. There's no guru of law enforcement. We all learn, people learn differently. There's guys like me and you, we pick up on it easy, and it becomes second nature. There's a lot of people, man. And you know, I know this, you some, you know, and we have to almost drag them along. Um for the folks at home, here's the one of the biggest problems in being a field training officer. If you've got an officer that's getting it, it can be fun, it can be really fun. But when you're getting somebody that doesn't get it, it is it can be gut wrenching. And um, there was many times where I'd be like, hey, pull into this parking lot. And there were some times I had to have those serious talks, and I know you did too, where I was like, um, I don't know if this work is for you because you're too trusting. And uh it's one thing if you're gonna get your own head blown off, but worse than that, you're gonna get mind blown off. And you know, and I respected people that came in and went and went like, amen, this is not for me. Because I think people watch it on TV and they get this connotation in their head, and then when they get out here, it's a whole different ball game. And it's a lot of responsibility, especially if we take a 21, 22-year-old kid and go, here's all this responsibility, handle it. Right.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

And and one of the last trainees I had before I left, um, she was struggling a little bit, but we we're working day shift, get dispatched to a domestic where a guy's allegedly waving a knife at his girlfriend wife, and there was no fill units available. So I'm like, we can we can we got this.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

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SPEAKER_04 34:06

So we go to this call, we walk in the door, and the wife's like, he's in the bedroom. So I'm I walk over to the bedroom, I kind of take charge at this point because I know we don't have a backup unit, and I look, kind of look over my shoulder, and the female trainee is still at the door. And here's the guy in the bat in the bedroom with a knife in his hand. So I draw down on him, tell him to get on the on the ground. Next thing I know is the wife is on my back because I'm pointing my gun at the guy that's trying to stab her with a knife. And the entire time my trainee is at the door. Oh yeah. Totally frozen. She was she resigned the next day.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:37

Um, so that's kind of an example of what we had to deal with.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah, and you know what? I know. I I used to tell, especially females, I said, if you see me rolling around on the ground with some guy fighting, you better get your skinny ass over there and jump right headfirst into it. But I you're right. I just think there's some people, and I've seen it, vapor lock. They they just lock up, they don't want to say anything, they don't want to do anything. You're right, they just space out. Right. And I I want to clarify something though.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

That wasn't just because she was a female. I had male officers do the same thing. And I've had female trainees that kicked butt. So that was just an example I wanted to use.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

I always say that uh, you know what? I think that uh, well, back when I started doing Vice APD, we were dumping 50% of our trainees, and I think it got better. Now they got that time in the classroom. I think that helps with report writing and whatnot. Um your time on the DUI team earned you the Mad California Hero Award. What moments from that assignment stay with you?

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Wow, that was an interesting year. I think that the the year I got that award was one of the first years they started doing that award because I know they do it regularly now because I, you know, I see on the press releases the officers get their little pins and everything. Um I was always an aggressive cop, pulled a lot of people over. So the DUI team was perfect for me. Yeah. When a lot of traffic stops. I think I had like 87 or 88 DUIs the year I won the award.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Oh, wow, that's a lot of deuces. It was a lot. And for the folks at home, DUI is a lot of work for a misdemeanor crime. Because you got the report, then you got the admin per se, then you got you got to take their license, then you got to tow the vehicle. I mean, it's not just one piece of paper, it's a lot of work for a misdemeanor crime.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

Right. And it's very technical. So, you know, to any any officer can do a DUI from the training they got in the academy. But when we got put on the DUI team, we went to a school for a week to learn DUI better. But then right before I left, they had sent me to DUI instructor school so I could start teaching at the department. And that that was a tough school because you're learning the ins and outs of how alcohol affects you, you know, measurements, scientific stuff that I'm like I went to the one in Woodland Hills. Okay. Is that the one you went to?

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Yeah. Yes. So um, yeah, and for the folks at home, I would tell you this. Yeah, he's right. Um, a DUI, once you go to the school, there is. In fact, they even let one of the uh people in the class get drunk, and then we evaluate them. They even put these cool goggles on him, and it took his eyes and it put it up on this big screen, and you could just see how the alcohol really affected him. And um, it does, it makes you 10 times better at DUI once you've been to that school because there is a lot of technical information that goes into a report that a lot of people don't realize.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

Right. I I think one thing too, DUI is doing all those DUIs taught me was patience. Yeah. Because you and I both know dealing with somebody who's intoxicated. Oh, yeah, it's not it's not always fun. It's not that you have to be very patient and not lose your cool with those people.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:48

Um, so that that's another thing it taught me, but the craziness that you would see. Oh yeah. Like one day there was an accident at the end of St. John's and Lover's Lane where the car was in the tree of the house that's uh and it was a 16-year-old kid in the driver's seat still, and stuff like that. I mean, you just see crazy things happen.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

I would tell you this, you know, I've worked some really, really bad DUIs. I mean, I remember we had a gal that blew like a four. You know, that's 4.0.

SPEAKER_04 38:15

I had a guy one night blow 0.28, and I was gonna let him go because he passed everything. And I'm like, maybe we'll maybe we should have him blow in the pass, and he was a 0.28, and I'm like, okay, alcoholic.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's just it. And so for the folks at home, like a two eight, a four, uh most people would probably be dead. Uh, but these people are alcoholics and they've built up a tolerance to the booze. And so it affects them differently. I'm like you, man. I mean, I worked somewhere just, I mean, you're just thinking, how are you even driving a car this drunk? You know what I mean? Um what made you pursue becoming a DUI instructor? And how did teaching change the way you saw the profession?

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Well, at the time I was already an RTO at the academy. I was already an FTO. Um, so teaching was already at the COS academy? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I would, you know, they would rotate us. I think there were four of us at the time from the department, and every Tuesday we rotated and it was an RTO. And I was one of them. Um, so I always enjoyed teaching. I think the instructor part, they just picked me. Um I, you know, at the time I had just won that award. Um, and I forget what lieutenant was in charge at the time. Said, you want to go? You know, we needed an in-house instructor. You want to go? Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

You know, and you know what, man, I I and I would tell you this for anybody who does, I mean, you know, I I've done a lot of DUIs and I know you have too, but you know, it's like, again, it's I think there's some people it's just a calling that they want to do it. And, you know, uh, because I I mean, after a while, you know, especially when we were working swings, we'd have two or three DUIs at night, you know, and I've always been really big on getting people for under the influence of math. That was my jam. So I was more 11550 versus DUI. But um, you know, I always say that at the end of the day, I anybody that any officer that can take people off the street that are schnockered, uh, then I want that person not driving because we've all seen people get killed by the DY driver, and it just it sucks. Right. Um you spent time as a youth service officer. How did working with young people reshape your understanding of prevention, trauma, and second chances?

SPEAKER_04 40:24

So I was only uh at a school for three months, um, but it was a crazy three months. Yeah. Um funny story. So the first I took over at Valley Oak Middle School. The officer that was there before maybe was not as aggressive and attentive as I was going to be.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

So my first day on the campus, there's a fight. I throw three kids, I pull my car in the middle of the, you know, the quad area, throw three kids in my car, drive them to Juvenile Hall. Yeah. Um fast forward to my defense work, and I had a case at a prison where I had to go interview some witnesses that were now at the California men's colony, and I go to interview this kid or this witness, and he goes, Do you remember me? I said, No. And he says, I was one of those kids you threw in the back of the kit car, Valley Oak. Love it. Back in the day I go, Well, I clearly didn't teach you anything. Um, you know, dealing with the kids, trying to set an example for them. Um I was always an explorer advisor. I was becoming an explorer advisor at that point. I was an explorer for a long time. So that you, you know, that program has a special place in my heart. Um, so getting to teach young kids and kind of shape them to what they, you know, how law enforcement is and how they should run their lives and stuff like that was important to me. Um dealing with the parents was a whole different thing. That's probably what ruined it the most being a school resource officer, is if you or you service officer here. Um you would yell at a kid and 3:30, the parents are in your office yelling at you for yelling at the kid.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Yeah. I would chase something. So talking about the California men's colony, um, I get a call from one of the CEOs over there, and he's like, hey man, and he's like, uh, I'm with a guy here named Brian Pento. And there was a it was a guy named Mike McCulliff. And guess what? He just retired from CDC. So this episode will be uh dedicated to Mike McCulliff. Uh uh, congrats. He did like 28 years as a CDC officer, so good for him. Um as an explorer advisor, you were twice awarded advisor of the year. What did guiding young people teach you about hope?

SPEAKER_04 42:31

That kids can grow up to be something special. That my work and the fellow advisors that were in charge of that program at the time, Sharon Brown, Joel Arjona, people like that, we put our time and effort into these kids, and they were winning awards at competitions, they were getting to experience ride-alongs, they were getting to experience things that I got to experience when I was a teenager as an explorer.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

And um for me, that was an award that was voted on by the explorers, and I won it two years in a row, and that that made me feel very special. That's cool. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 43:05

And I would tell you something. There's a lot of those explorers that went on to become cops, which is great, you know. And, you know, I've talked about this on other episodes, but you know, it's like you would walk in, like I would, you know, I was never an explorer advisor, but I would walk into those rooms and see those kids, and you could almost go, he's gonna be a cop, he's gonna be a cop. I mean, there were some squared-away kids that became some phenomenal cops.

SPEAKER_04 43:30

I have one of my former explorers is one of my investigators now. Okay. Um, I had another one that was an investigator for me for a little while before he decided to do something else. I've kept in contact with a lot of the kids from back then.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Most of them have been very successful. Um What are one or two moments from patrol that truly changed you of the person you are today? I know I'm I'm I know I got some tough ones.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

Yeah, there's some tough ones. Um I think one was um a shooting I witnessed. Uh my first officer involved shooting, I was not the shooter, um, but I was down in LA and an officer and I two other officers and and us got dispatched to a call and it was a guy a man with a gun, and we get there, and very young looking man is pointing a gun at the officers, and one of the officers shot and killed him. Yeah. It ended up being a fake gun. Oh wow. Um we don't know that. That's the problem. Yeah. So and he was 14.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 44:45

So having to um deal with that because the officer that was involved in the shooting was immediately taken out of the situation, and having to deal with the parents and telling them what happened, um, because they heard what happened because they were inside the house, and having to deal with the ramifications of all that. I'm sure the neighborhood went ballistic. Right. And I was 22 years old at the time. Yeah. So I was young and having to deal with all this, and from that moment forward, I think dealing with death and having to do death notifications or dealing with ramifications of any kind of death we have had to deal with, whether it was a homicide, a traffic accident, suicide, was tough.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Oh, dude, they're gut punches, they're horrible.

SPEAKER_04 45:31

So I think that that one being so young was a reality check for me. Yeah. Of of what I was doing now for the rest of my career. Um another one was a baby, my first baby death where I showed up and the baby wasn't breathing and I had to do CPR before paramedics got there. I mean, stuff like that I I don't not forget. Oh, yeah. Um I don't know about you.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

Does this happen to you? For me, I'll be doing something, and I don't know why this happens, but out of the blue, some call will just flash before my eyes that I was at. And I don't know why that happens, and I don't know why my mind does that. And I just, you know, I've just chalked it up that this is probably gonna be the way forever. But um, does that happen to you where you somewhere you're some one day you're just driving down the road and all of a sudden it just pop in your minds? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

When when I'm here in my current Vicelia office and I, you know, driving around the city when I'm working on a case, and I I remember things sections and stuff I hadn't thought about in in years. And I'm like, oh wait, that happened right there.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:36

Yeah, that kind of stuff doesn't leave you.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Um can you talk about the moment or the series of moments that led you to leave law enforcement?

SPEAKER_04 46:49

So common knowledge, I was accused of some stuff that was resolved and came back to had to have a you know, had to have a lawsuit to come back to work.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

How much money did you get from that?

SPEAKER_04 47:04

We're not gonna talk about that. Um I came back to work for a few years, and uh unfortunately that you know I'm gonna classify it as this uh the my gay personal lifestyle is different than what Vicelia is used to.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:21

And I was hanging out with people that I probably should have known better to hang out with off duty. Yeah. Um and that, you know, exposed me to false allegations.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

So some stuff happened. Um Colleen Mestis, who's one of my closest friends and one of my biggest mentors now, um, fired me from Vice LEPD. And at the time, I had an attorney that was representing me who told me, Why don't you become a private investigator? Be my investigator. I will make you more money, and you will have more work than you can handle in your first year than you ever did as a cop. What attorney was that? Molina Benninghoff.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Oh, she recently passed away. She recently passed away.

SPEAKER_04 48:02

Um, she was my mentor. She officiated my husband and I's wedding.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Um I only got to meet her that one time when we were at the uh conference. Right. And I that's the only time I met her, but um seemed like a nice lady. Um, I would tell you this, and you know, I've I've I've talked to uh Colleen often, you know, and uh, you know, she's cool. I mean, she's had to rip my ass many times at the PD, but I love her and I know you do too. And you know, um, but um I can tell you this. I remember during all that time um I hated to see it because um number one, I liked you, but number two, it's like this. I knew all the stuff that was getting thrown around. I remember thinking, I don't know if he's gonna survive this. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 48:51

Right. I think um I think what I learned is I was young at the time and and making poor off-duty decisions. Oh yeah. Right. Um, and then she fired me. And then she harassed me a little bit for not fighting my firing. Um, but now, you know, Cohen and I have traveled the world together since she's been retired. Um I thank her on a monthly basis for firing me because of where I'm at now. Yeah, yeah. And and she's been a real important confidant of mine. You know, I run stuff by her all the time dealing with what I'm dealing with now in the defense world. And she gives me her law enforcement point of view and currently.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Well, I'll tell you something, and you know, um, she is she's wicked smart. There's no doubt about that. Uh highly educated, highly credentialed woman. Um, but I'm like you. There's times I've called her on many things, and you know, she'll talk to me, and it's the same stuff, man. And you know, um, I've often said, I think as far as chiefs go, she probably had the most personality of any chief I ever worked for.

SPEAKER_04 49:53

She has some of the biggest personality of anybody I know.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Oh, big time. In a good way. Yeah, no, she does. I mean, you know, she used to laugh, she was good to talk to, uh, but you did not want to get on her bedside, that's for sure. Right. Um what were your biggest misconceptions about defense investigations before entering the field?

SPEAKER_04 50:15

Okay, so my um point of view on why people commit crime and why people do the things they do has changed. Okay. So when I was in law enforcement, and I don't know if you felt this way, but if somebody committed a crime, screw you, you shouldn't have made that decision. We're gonna lock you up. You had choices, you know better. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

100%.

SPEAKER_04 50:38

So getting into death, I mean getting into criminal defense work, one of my first cases was actually a death penalty case. And I told that was with Miss Benninghoff, and I said, Are you sure you're ready for me to work at death penalty case already? Because part of that defense investigation is you're you're defending the crime itself, but you're also presenting an investigation, what's called a mitigation investigation. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

You're going back through their for the folks at home, mitigation, we got to go back into their childhood of like, you know, we'll go talk to like uh grandparents, coaches, teachers, all that. Yeah. And um, that see, back when we started, uh, that that didn't happen. You know, later on in life, then I realized what mitigation was.

SPEAKER_04 51:18

But doing that for the first time and learning my client growing up in poverty, both of his parents were criminals. I mean, he was witness to crimes when he was six years old. He didn't know any better. This is who he was going to be. Yeah. Because this is who he was raised to be. And that changed my perception.

unknown 51:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:37

Not all the time. There are evil people in this world. Oh, for sure. I've represented a couple evil people that didn't, you know, this is just who they were just evil. But a lot of my clients, this is just who they were going to be because they had poor upgreen, you know, their whole family, generations in their families are criminals. They don't know any better.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Yeah. And you know what? And I can see that. I, you know, and I think I've, for lack of a better word, I think I've softened as I've gotten older. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:04

You had to when you worked for me for a couple weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, soften up a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

Yeah, because my whole thing is this, you're right. And I think that's why defense work is probably not my calling, because um I'm more like I want to take criminals off the street and I want to put them in jail. I know you think that there's people that need to be taken off the street because they are bad people. I think some people, not all people, I think with a little bit of help can go on to be good people.

SPEAKER_04 52:34

Uh what I tell people is this, because you know I joke and say I went to the dark side. It's not the dark side. It's not. Um, but what I tell people is I've been accused of things.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:44

And if you're accused of something, you want the best people surrounding you to represent you. Yeah. And that's what I tell people. I'm we're giving them the best. I mean, I I work for 30 attorneys at this point. They're all great attorneys.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:58

And they trust me with their investigations, and and we're the team that's going to try to help this person who maybe or maybe not screwed up and get them out of the situation they're in.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Uh yeah, because you do a lot of stuff here in town. John Jackson, you work for him. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:11

Best attorney in Telera County, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 53:13

Yeah. Well, you know, he's always done it, you know, I've never heard anything bad. Um many former officers are shocked when they cross over to defense. But what surprised you the most about that work?

SPEAKER_04 53:31

I think that's a tough one. Um probably one of the biggest things that surprises me is the lack of responsibility or the lack of understanding by the client of what damage and what things they have done. Yeah. Kind of the carefree, uh, you know, the the the no-care about humanity.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

I don't know about you. Here's here's something that happened to me, and this kind of surprised me. I write good paper. You write good paper. I was shocked at the reports I would get from law enforcement. And if, for lack of a better word, on a scale from one to ten, I had to give it a two because I've never seen a one. These were horrible reports. So law enforcement has changed. Yeah, I but I would tell you something that shocked me. Number two, going and talking to these people in the jail, you know, talking to our clients, I would be like, I'm your PI. I'm here to help you. Tell me what happened. You know, really tell me what happened so I know what to attack. And they would all lie, right? You know what I mean? And I would just be like, wait, dude, I'm not the cops. Right. I'm here to help. Every single one of my clients lied. And then when I would catch them in the lie and come back with the info and be like, why did you lie? I think a lot of these people they lie because they don't know how to do anything but lie. I don't know if you feel that.

SPEAKER_04 55:08

No, I I do feel that. I mean, that at first that was a problem. Yeah. I've been doing this for 16 years now. So I've learned the speech I give to my clients um to basically say, you know, everything you're telling me is protected under turning my reward. You can tell me you have five bodies buried in your backyard. I can never testify against you, I can never tell anybody that. Um, and that's kind of changed. You know, I had to relearn how to talk to people because talking to somebody as a cop or and then going in and trying to talk to somebody as their own. Yeah, you have to soften big time. Big time. Yeah, because big time.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

As cops, you know, and for the folks at home, here's the thing, here's the thing about cops. When somebody would talk to us in law enforcement after we've mirandized them, this side of my brain was like, Great, they're making my job easier. This side of my brain was like, You dumb son of a bitch, why are you talking to the cops? Right. Right? And I, you know, it's like, and then you just realize it's like I would talk to my clients in jail, and I'm like, Why did you talk to the cops? Right. Well, I thought I could talk my way out of it. And I'm like, with every word, you're putting another nail in your coffin.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Uh yeah, and that's why I used to tell these guys I had a client in jail, wrote a kite to the shot caller, copying to a murder. And guess who found it?

SPEAKER_02 56:25

The deputy, right? Right, and I would like, dude, what more can I tell you to keep your mouth shut? And none of these people in here are your friends, right? And I I don't know, man, but the whole defense thing shocked me. One day I may come back to work for you, but yeah, I'm I'm kind of slowly but surely softening. Right. But I will tell you something, man. I just I couldn't wrap my head around a lot of the stuff that these people do. Right. And and then, and then you're right, no accountability. A lot of these people, even when they have killed people or they have, you know, sexually assaulted somebody, they don't even want to say it, you know. Right with me. We show them a video of them. Yeah, it's not me. It's not me.

SPEAKER_04 57:09

That's happened a few times. Isn't that you on Ring Doorbell? Um, but going back to your law enforcement thing. Um, when I started my master's degree at Arizona State and now my doctoral at Walden, I mean, focused a lot on law enforcement. I've written a lot of papers on criminal justice and the way the system works. But getting reports nowadays where officers are using slang in their reports. Oh, yeah. Supervisors are signing off on these reports, misspellings, I mean terrible reports. Um, when they show up to court now that sometimes they're just in there, you know, khaki BDUs and a and a shirt, or they're in there, they're in their SWAT gear or whatever coming to court. Uh it's not the same back as when we first started. Yeah. You had to wear your class A uniform, you had to wear a suit. Tel Area County still does it pretty good. Vice APD always looks really good in in court, but in Fresno and other jurisdictions that I work, it's the I guess the respect for the profession for the people that are in it is not the same, in my opinion, not the same with a new general. Well, 100%, dude.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

And listen, listen, I was just downtown. I saw a Vice APD officer that had the longest hair I've ever seen in uniform. His beard was crazy out of control.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

And then he had full-blown tats, like a full-sleeve tat show. And and back when we started, that dude, they would have ripped you into the office. I would have told you, go get a haircut, shave off that thing, and get a sleeve to cover your tat.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

I think we should be um more professional. I gotta tell you this uh one of the sergeants here in town, very squared away, dude. Me and him were talking about it one day, and this is how he described it to me. They've had to soften up because they got to do whatever they can to get people now, dude. And, you know, they're having a hard time even keeping up with just retirements, the attrition. You know, and then you look at, you know, Vice, they're it's not gonna be long, they're gonna be pushing 200 cops. It's getting big. Uh, you know, look at Fresno. Fresno should have 1200 cops in my and I don't even think they're 900. Nope, they're about 500 short. You know, it's horrible. And you know, uh, people don't realize, I mean, when I was with Amtrak, my office was downtown Fresno. Dude, that downtown Fresno, that's a rough. I mean, I was I was in fights every day with all those homeless people, you know. Um, how did founding Central California investigations change your life, both personally and professionally?

SPEAKER_04 59:43

So it was um a big life change for me.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:48

Going from working for the man, you know, reporting, reporting to duty, getting your regular paycheck because that's what they owed you for your hours you worked, and now here I am, have no clue how to run a business. Don't know the laws, don't know, you know, what do I I gotta, you know, create this business. I'm gonna be a business owner now. Um, so I had to get a lot of advice from people. And I hired some consultants and started my business and made it into a corporation. The biggest thing that I've learned is it's a lot of responsibility. It is if I don't work, I have employees now, but initially it was just me. And if I don't work, I'm not making money.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

And if I want benefits, I'm gonna have to pay for my own benefits. If I have if I want retirement, I have to be disciplined enough to set up my own retirement plan and put money into a retirement. I got lucky um when it comes to benefits. I mean, I married a nurse. Okay. You don't have to worry about the medical benefits. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:53

So he works at a hospital.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:54

He's in the ER downtown in Fresno at CRMC.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:58

So um that helped. But the responsibility of now having employees and making sure, you know, I'm following all the California laws, which, as we know, California is not the best state to be a business code.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

And every year there's just another set of laws coming down the pike. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

And there's even a section in the business and profession code specifically for private investigating companies that have employees. I, you know, we've talked about that. I mean, they can't be a contract employee, they actually have to be my payroll employee. So learning all that and having the responsibility of managing the business, but then also trying to figure out how do you advertise, how do you grow, how do you how do you do that? I've gotten lucky. I've never one time paid for advertising or anything. I've grown by word of mouth from the people I've worked for. Um, because apparently I do a pretty good job. So they've, you know, they've put my name out there, and more and more people have used me. So it's a lot of responsibility though. Financially, best decision I ever made. Yeah. You know, uh, and professionally, I I'm proud of what I've done now.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

You know, and I'm still growing. Uh, you know, I brought your name up one time to some cops in Fresno. And um, I let them know, hey, uh, I used to work with Brian, I know Brian. And uh one of them said this. They said, uh, I think he's the premier investigator in Fresno. And that's coming from a guy you probably don't even know, right? Right. And so for somebody to say that to me, um at the time I was with Amtrak when he said that, and I told the guy, I go, I'll agree with that. I said, I don't hear about any other PI in Fresno but you. I mean, I know there's other guys up there, but you're the guy that I hear about. I hear about you more. Uh also you do something that's pretty cool when you guys get a case. I love how you take that little red thing and like, you know, not guilty across the front page of the report or the uh indictment, or right. And um so I think whatever you're doing, obviously it's working, and I think you're right. I mean, I've never heard this. He's a shitty investigator, or he botched this, or he botched that. Everything always here is good. So, whatever it is you're doing, keep doing it, you know. Um what does it take mentally, emotionally, and operationally to run an investigative agency at the level you do? How many employees you got now?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:26

Five employees this year. We set a case record. We had 330 cases this year. Um between and we cover Fresno, Tolerie, Kings, Madeira, Merced, and I do federal cases. So, and we have I have some off-the-wall cases in like San Luis Obispo and Ventura County and a couple other places. Um, but managing that caseload is a lot. Yeah. Um, because it it's different than the the law enforcement caseload, because you, I mean, you're it's your responsibility, you don't have to report to anybody, you know, the attorneys are expecting you to handle this stuff. You're dealing with a client, you're dealing with um whatever they're accused of, and you're dealing with a client's family, which oftentimes is very emotional, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

Yeah, because they're looking at their they don't want their family member to go off for the next 25 years and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:16

Right, right. So it's a lot. I mean, I I tell people I don't really ever take a day off, even on the weekends when I'm home. I'm yeah, you're working a case. I'm I'm doing admin stuff. I gotta do payroll, I gotta do billing to the counties, I gotta do b you know that kind of stuff. So it's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:30

Um now somebody told me that Fresno County is now paying more. What are they paying an hour for?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:36

For court appointed stuff, they're they're paying 65 an hour. Okay. Which is it's not bad. Um, the feds pay the best. When it comes to court-appointed work, I take private cases as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

Is Tulary County that they finally take a little pay raise here? 50 an hour. 50. Okay. Yeah. And see, and for the folks at home, that's tough because here's the thing. In my PI stuff right now, I charge $116 an hour, and I'm sure you charge even more than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Double that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, because you're working right death penalty stuff and garbage stuff. But you know, yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, I tr I tell people, and you know, I've had people call me, hey, can can we negotiate down to $20 an hour? And I'm like, hey, you want my expertise. I don't work for minimum wage, you know? That doesn't even pay for your gas. It doesn't. It doesn't. And um when did you first take on a murder case as a defense investigator? And what did you feel when you realized how high the stakes were? Because that's a that's a big that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:33

It was my third case that we talked about earlier, and it was a death penalty case. Um it was an in-prison offense. The guy had already been in custody for a murder and allegedly killed his cellmate at Corcoran. Was that the one thing we chopped the head off? No, but I had that case too. That was that was down the road. Um I'm not on that case anymore. Uh and that case isn't over yet. So we can't really talk about it even if I'm off that case. Thank thank you that I'm off that case. But um, it was it was hard because, you know. Even though I knew knew at the time, we're in California. You can be convicted of the death penalty. You're never going to be put to death. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

They don't even have death row now.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:07

They don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

I don't know if you saw, but Givens from here, they took him off death row, put him on mainline, and he just stabbed. He just stabbed somebody to death.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:17

That case, that incident is actually related to a federal Aaron Brotherhood case I have right now. And that's I'm going to leave it at that. Okay. But it was tough because uh we had a very uh difficult client. Um he did not want us to do the mitigation work because he didn't want he didn't want his family to have to talk about how bad his childhood was and how bad the family was and stuff like that. And that that client actually this one sticks with me because right before we were gonna go to trial, that client committed suicide. And it was right after Corey Sumter worked that case with me when he first became an investigator. We were both on it, and it was right after we did all the mitigation work and he just didn't want to deal with it. And and he hung himself in a cell at Corcoran. That was tough because you know you get to know these people, even though you know they've been accused of some bad things and you you get to know these people. They are human beings. You know, I there's clients that if they got out of prison today and wanted to go have a beer, this might sound bad, but I go have a beer with them because I've gotten to know them, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:13

I'd tell you something, man. I worked my third day on the job at Tillary County. I had to deal with a hanging in a cell. And, you know, it's hardcore, man. You know. Um well, I am a master storyteller, so I got a story for you. All right. So I have been asked about this case in public more than anything ever. And I was recently asked about it, and I finally said, tune into the episode. I'm gonna debrief this whole thing for you so you can hear it right from my mouth. Local business owner owned a transmission shop. Okay. Now, to the backstory is this he lived next to my dad when I was a little boy, and even though I wasn't around, him and my dad were tight. He would go and work on cars with my dad later on in life. He was a um, he he had a lot of money, but and he was very tight with Bryn Abbott's dad, Steve, right? And Steve was a local uh law enforcement officer, and in fact, the longest running cop in Viseus history, 37 years, beginning dead. But they were tight. They used to do three gun competitions together, and this guy was deadly with a rifle, deadly with a shotgun, and deadly with a pistol. I mean, he was a damn good shot. Fact, he would make his own uh magazines for his gun, and he had a super 38. He was the first guy ever seen with a red dot on a uh gun. He's done a half a dozen ride-alongs with me. Uh, me and my wife used to go have dinner with him and his wife. I mean, we were friends. Over the few years that led up to this incident, we had kind of lost track because he had gotten kind of addicted to painkillers and he was a drunk. He got attacked at uh Santa Fe Station. Some guys they put his leg actually on a um parking block, jumped on it, broke his leg. Big man, though, you know, six foot two, 300 pounds, used to be a big bodybuilder dude. But uh, anyways, I'm the officer in charge of Mooney Boulevard, and I get sent to the Schwin shop for a guy creating a disturbance inside the Schwen shop. So I pull up, get out. As I'm trying to walk into the Schwin shop, this large man opens a door and hits me with the door hard and it pushes me back. I recognize it as our buddy, and I'm like, uh, hey man, I go, what the heck, bro? And he and he's talking to me, and he's not drunk, but he's lethargic. And there had been a lot of uh rumors around town that he he'd gotten addicted to painkillers and kind of thick-tongued, and I could kind of tell something's off. So we go into the Schwen shop. The Schwen owner goes, Hey man, he didn't really commit a crime in here, but he's being loud, he's being disruptive. I just want him out of here. And I go, Fair enough. They were neighbors, and so I said, uh, hey, I so I tell the guy, the the guy that owns the muffler shop, I said, he goes, I'm gonna drive out of here. I go, if you get in the car, you're gonna go to jail for DY. I said, you don't not be driving. I go, I'm gonna give you a ride home. The neighbor goes, leave me his keys and I'll drive the car home for him. So I tell the muffler guy, is that okay? He goes, Yeah, that's cool. Well, the muffler guy starts getting a little little pushback. He's like, I'm not going to jail. And I said, Don't start talking that. I go, I'm gonna give you a ride home. Now I look back on this now. I did not pat him down to put him in the car. It would be the same thing, like if I were giving you a ride home. I don't think I would pat you down because we've known each other for so long. I'm not gonna expect you that you want to blow my head off. So I'm driving him home and he pulls out his cell phone and he's showing me all these naked photos of his current girlfriend. And uh I'm like, I don't want to see this stuff, dude. And I'm like, so we get to his house. He lives very nice house over there by Court Park, you know, $500,000 house at the time. Big old beautiful home. And uh he's like, Come on in, I got this new 308. I want to show you. You know, he was owned to AR10s, and you know, for the folks that own an AR10, that's a 308, it'll go through our vest, us keep going, it's a nasty weapon. But he's like, come in, and I'm like, John, I gotta go to work or muffler guy, I gotta go to work, right? And so finally I said, get the fuck out. I gotta go. Okay. So he gets out, I watch him go in the house, shut the door, I drive off. Dude, one hour later. And this probably saved my life. Being a busy officer saved my life. I'm booking somebody at the county jail. He calls 911 and he says, I need to talk to Officer McWilliams. And they're like, Well, sir, he's busy right now, why have him call you back? And he starts crying over the phone to dispatch. So now they're worried about him. So they dispatch a rookie cop. I don't know any of this is going on because I'm fat, dumb, and happy over the county jail booking somebody. He calls his sister. She does not answer in time, and when she picks up, her s her uh answer machine picks up at the same time, it records the whole conversation. He starts telling her that McWayams disrespected me. When he gets to my house, I'm gonna shoot this motherfucker. I'm gonna fucking kill this motherfucker. And so she's like, Shut up, you ain't gonna do nothing. He goes, No, he's fucking dead. Now again, I don't know this is happening. The rookie pulls up, knocks on the door. Billy Bob answers the door. He's wearing on a bulletproof vest, he's got a super 38 in his hand. He starts coming up. Our officer pulls, starts shooting from the bottom, boom, boom, boom, zips him. One round goes into the stomach. I think one hits him in the chest. The officer retreats. There's a berm in his front yard. He gets behind this berm. Billy Bob goes boom, boom, boom, boom, cranks off four rounds, slams the front door. How do you think I feel? Knowing that I just dropped him off. One hour later, I hear shots fired at that address. My heart sinks to my stomach. I'm like, how did this happen? I get in my car, start flying there, rolling code. I get on the radio, be advised. He has thousands of rounds, multiple um uh assault rifles, because I'd been in his house multiple times. They mobilize SWAT. We're out there for an hour, we get the place surrounded. He finally realizes if I don't come out, I'm gonna bleed to death. So he finally calls 911, I'm coming out. So he comes out, SWAT converges on him, and he's got a diet pepsy in this hand, and he's got a cell phone in this hand, or a cordless phone, no shirt on, and this big bullet hole in his stomach. So they take him down. Chief Mestis walks up to me, two words. All she said to me was, Goddamn, right? And I was like, I didn't know this was gonna happen. And I I didn't know. I was trying to be a good friend, I was trying to be a good officer, I wasn't trying to make any of this happen. So we go to trial, I have to tell this whole thing on the witness stand, and uh he ends up getting 35 years for attempt murder on a police officer firearm. Backstory to that is he also broke the gas line in the house, hoping that they would flashbang the house and blow the house up. So no good deed goes unpunished. We know that in law enforcement. Every time we try to help people for the folks at home, every time a cop tries to help, normally times it comes back and bites.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

Thank God the rookie wasn't shot. Uh thank God nobody was killed. Uh, but I've had people give me the evil eye over this, thinking that I had something to do with this when all I was trying to do was be nice. Right. And uh but you can never second guess the medicine. You'll do that all day long. And you don't. And it's like this you know, it's like I've told people I didn't do anything wrong that day. Um, I was cleared of any wrongdoing because I didn't do anything wrong. How did I know that one hour later he he would go batshit crazy? Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

I didn't know that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:06

Um you accept a capital murder investigation, what goes through your mind? Is it the duty, the fear, the focus, or is it something deeper?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:21

I think it's all of those three three things that you say, but plus um knowing my responsibility in a case like that and knowing what the law says we have to do to protect rights of people accused of crimes. Um it's a lot of responsibility, it's a lot of documentation, it's a lot of, you know, if we were in a different state, I think it would be even more difficult because there are states that still put people to death. Yeah. So now Who Who still does that? Texas. Texas is one of them. Florida still does it. Some of the southern states. Um, because you're dealing, you're dealing with a lot of emotion. You're dealing with the emotion of whoever the victim is in the homicide and their family and all the political pressure that they're putting on the district attorney's office and so on for you know what they want to have happen to Let me ask you this.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:08

Do you support the death penalty?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:10

I used to. I do not anymore. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:13

Uh yeah, I don't anymore. Okay. Um but does just the all that responsibility, it's a it's a heavy burden on both ends as as being a part of the process.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:25

I would say this, and for the folks at home, people don't realize a homicide investigation. I've literally seen a district attorney with a pushcart with six binders this big. Each one, you know, thousands of pieces of paper for a report. And that's what people don't realize. It ain't a quick thing. It's, I mean, I mean, I've seen homicide investigations go for a year, and I know you have too.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:54

So I have a case in Fresno. Um, without going into details, it was the mass shooting that happened six years ago now that uh Asian gangs are involved at us at a football party. We haven't gone to trial yet. Before I went, well, yeah, there's like six, seven people shot or something. Ten people shot, four people killed. Um, before my office went paperless, I had 12 five-inch binders of discovery in that case.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:19

Yeah. But I will tell you this. It's a lot. It is. It's it is a lot. And it's it's like, hey, there just comes a point in time as you know, you're a highly educated man, and so am I. But I'm gonna tell you something. You read thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of paper, you're not gonna be able to remember every little thing. No, you know what I mean? And uh the best you can do is try to bullet point it out the best you can, but you're not gonna remember the 6,000 pages of a report. Right. Just not gonna happen, you know. Um, how does a death penalty case differ from a standard homicide investigation?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:02

There's just more responsibility in a death penalty case. Um, I the investigation on on both is basically the same. We still do mitigation work on regular homicide cases to present if if we need it at sentencing or or to present to trial to kind of mitigate the situation. Um, but the biggest difference is just the different laws and different rights that people have when they're when they're facing the death penalty case and and the different responsibilities that the attorneys have that I have that we have to do and keep documentation of in regards to investigation.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

So just now, you know, for me just spitballing here, now that we don't have death penalty, then it just, but they're not gonna put them to death. So that just ends up being wet life without the possibility of programming. I think sometimes they'll never get out.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:50

Sometimes um what I've learned, uh I'll preface this with this. What I've learned big time being on the other side is if you don't think there's politics involved in criminal justice, then you're crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:03

Yeah, big time.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:04

So I think there's money involved.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:06

There's money, there's there's elected officials. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:09

So I think that sometimes there's cases that are bad that the district attorney may file the death penalty case on someone because they just want them to plead out to a life without parole.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:21

They're putting pressure on them.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:23

Um a lot of people do that? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:26

I just had a case like this. It was on 2020 a couple weeks ago. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure we'll talk about that. I got a I got a specific question for you. So so I think that there was some politics behind on that one we'll talk about in a minute. But yeah, I I think um sometimes you know they seek death to put more pressure on the defense. Because, you know, even though you're not going to be put to death, what happens if uh a new governor comes in and says we're gonna resume executions in California?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:51

Yeah. And I can see that happen. I think if uh Bianca wins, I think uh that could happen, man. You know, I mean I I'm I mean, I know we we're we're different politically. I know, I know, I know we don't want to go down the rabbit hole of of politics in this, but I'm just saying you're right. Yeah, it does change with elected officials. As elected officials change, the landscape changes. Yes. Um what is the true weight of being the lead defense investigator when a person's life may hinge on the quality of your work?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:29

There's a lot of pressure there. Big time. There's a lot of pressure too if it's someone you know. I've had I had one case. Um, I can talk about it. Uh it was a former police officer who was one of our explorers. Okay. I do want to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:43

I was gonna say I got a specific thing for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:46

So so that's a lot of pressure because I mean, sometimes we're not, you know, you know what's gonna happen to your client. For sure. Ultimately, they're gonna do some time. Um, it's a lot of pressure having to, you know, walk them through that, try to get the best result possible, but also being there for the family and answering questions for the family. And a lot of, you know, the reality is a lot of the mommy and daddies don't know how what their kids have done. They they think that their kids are angels, they don't want to lose them forever. And and and having to balance that and and not being able to tell them some things because it's protected with the trinity client privilege. Yeah, and getting to the biggest thing is getting to know these people. You know, I used to, you know, I used we talked about it before. When I was a cop, you're you're a criminal, that's what you are. Yeah, now I've gotten to know these people, I understand not all the time, but I understand a lot of times why they do what they do.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:38

I would take something like this, and even when I was doing criminal defense, a lot of times the defendant wouldn't, they wouldn't want me to tell the family what really happened or what they said. And then the family's like, that's my son. I I I need to know what happened. And I'm like, well, then you need to talk to him the next time he calls you or the next time you visit or whatever's gonna go on, because he's told me specifically he don't want me saying nothing. And by law, I can't.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:06

You can't, and the family gets frustrated because big time now now their their son or daughter is taking a 25-year term in prison, and they want to know why. And I you can't tell him. I'm like, he's got to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:17

Yeah, yeah. I that you know what I used to tell the families all the time, talk to him, right? He'll tell you because uh it's just illegal for me to do so. What is the emotional toll of living case to case, homicide after homicide? I'm sure that gets after a while, I'm sure that gets difficult.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:37

So I if I thought about it, it would be difficult. I've become very good at becoming cold to certain situations. Um, so I specialize in two cake kind of cases. The majority are homicides and sex crimes. Um I read cases now and it's terrible things that have that are alleged. I'm not saying that they've all happened, but there's terrible things alleged, there's terrible things happening. And I I just am cold to it now. And I don't know if that's a good quality to have.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:05

It's not, but I would tell you something. For your own mental well-being, it is. And I will tell you this, and I and I've often said this. I think cops who work sex crimes for a long period of time, I've seen it screw up a lot of cops. Every time I worked a uh a child molestation case, or if I worked a rape case, it's hard on us because we see the devastation to the victims. However, with that being said, this is gonna shock a lot of people. A lot and a majority of sex crimes that are reported are fabricated. Yep. That I think John Q Citizen does not realize these things are fabricated. And, you know, when you work your butt off on a case and then you get to the end of it and you realize it was all BS, I used to get very pissed off because it was a lot of work. We want to take people on their face value that they're telling us the truth. But man, dude, because you know this if I see a young child that's been uh molested, I want the suspect to or be arrested. I want them held accountable. Uh, same way, if a woman has been raped, I want to see the suspect held to answer for it. Uh, but I don't want people going to prison for fabricated shit. And that's the problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:25

Right. And that's even worse with the Me Too unit movement. Just any allegation. And the DA doesn't really have a choice. They have to file the charges. They do.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:33

And and I, you know, and I've told some people, like I, you know, I've said this in public before, sex crimes are fabricated. I've had some people get very pissed off when I say it. But I always tell people, I'm an expert at this shit. So I'm not gonna go, I'm not just spouting off some crazy stuff. This really happens. Right. Uh without naming any protected details, what is one investigation, one moment that still lives with you? I'm sure you've worked some gut-wrenching ones.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:07

So there's a lot. Um I think the most emotional I ever got at the end of a case, and I don't know if you want to talk about it now because you said you had a case. No, no, go, you can't go ahead. But um we had a client who was one of my explorers. Yeah. Went into law enforcement here in Tularie County, was in a canine unit. Um, he was in my wedding. That's how close we are. He's one of my employees now. He was short time, but he's a he's a contractor now, making probably more money than I'm making. So um he leaves the valley to go work on the coast and they retire his canine. And he takes his canine with him.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:43

And dude, I was in San Luis when this happened, and I used to see him at the jail all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:48

Right. So he's over um in San Luis or San Luis Obispo County, and his dog gets out and attacks two of the neighbors, killing one of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:59

Yeah, mauled like an elderly gentleman and an elderly female, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:02

Yeah. Um, the the gentleman got infections in his wounds and died three days later. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:06

The district now, I'm glad we're talking about this. Somebody said that the dog had bit him here. Did that not happen? Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:12

Nope. It was on his arms and legs. Um ends up charging him with manslaughter and a couple other different charges in regards to the mauling of the Dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:23

I had to go out there to the courts because there were people out there with picket signs. I mean, this turned into a big deal. So they sent a me and a bunch of cops over there. And, you know, and what's sad is if you knew this kid like we know him, he's a sweetheart of a kid, he's a good kid. Unfortunately, that was a horrible situation. But I think that case ended up being a political thing. And I was just gonna say so.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:49

This case, they they they file the charges and we're getting ready for trial, and we start trial. And this was one case where where, you know, I'm not bad. Nothing law enforcement, but I'm gonna say this. There was a lot of lying by law enforcement in that case. Provable lies. Um there was a lot of um political pressure put on by the district attorney in that case. And that was with Miss Benninghoff. Melina Benninghoff was the attorney. You know, here I am with that my client who's not just my client. I've known him since he was 15 years old. He's one of my closest friends, his family. Yeah. We're all close. So there's a lot of pressure in this case. So working that investigation, I mean we felt pretty confident going in it, but you never know what's gonna happen. You don't know, but it's a crapshoot. Yeah, it's a crapshoot. So we were over on the coast for about four, the trial lasted about four weeks. And close up the case, we give it to the jury, and it's right at the end of the day. So we got to come back the next day. And we're stressing out overnight, and we come in and the jury still doesn't have a verdict.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:52

What was his exposure? What would his exposure have been?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:54

It was like it wasn't very it was like five or six years for the manslaughter or something at the max. He would have probably never gotten that. He probably would have never gotten prison time in reality, but he was gonna have a felony on his record and stuff like that. So the jury comes in um to read the verdict. Uh, if you knew Melina Benninghoff, she's very emotional. Um and the jury starts to read the verdict of the not guilties, and she Molina starts to cry. Alex is crying, and I don't like to show emotion in front of people. That's probably why I didn't talk about earlier some of the stuff I saw in love. I just I I kind of keep all that in. No, I get it. And I'm sitting there trying to look the other way, going, all the video, all the news cameras there. I'm like, I cannot cry, I cannot cry, I start crying.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:37

So um, because it was important. I knew he did, it was an accident. That's all it was. Yeah. It was an accident. And we ended up talking to the jury afterwards, and the jury said we we had our minds made up the first day of trial that this was an accident. This was political.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:51

There was I was gonna say, because he never had any intention for this dog to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:56

And what what what the public didn't know, which came out of trial, is the guy that died picked up a BB gun because he thought the dogs were being mean to the little dog in the front yard and pointed the BB gun. And the dog unfortunately probably reverted back to his training and went and attacked the guy with the BB gun.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:10

I would tell you this, and here's the sad part about that. Uh, this poor kid, uh, you know, well, number one, it destroyed his career in law enforcement. There's that. But number two, I mean, there's so many people that just would pop it off and say dumb stuff about it. And I'm like, you know, and I had to tell some people, hey man, um, I know this kid. He's a good kid. Right. And you know what? Um, if you think you can control a dog 24-7, you're nuts. Um, but I also think the politics of one city selling a dog to another city. Um, and then I now I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:48

It wasn't a working dog and uh over in the coast.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:50

And also, too, I was gonna ask you this. Somebody said that the dog had a lot of trouble here in Exeter before it went over there. Bullshit. Bullshit.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:58

And um, yeah, so I was just gonna say something now for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:03

And what's sad about that is is I would tell you something. See, like prime example, I hear all this crazy shit. Right. And uh yeah, but when I saw that he ended up being not guilty, I was very happy for him because I number one, I don't think he did anything that made that happen. I mean, though I guess and I was the and the was the dog in a kennel or no? He was out of the kennel. Out of the kennel. He was out of the kennel. In the backyard.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:28

So I think the hard thing now, I mean, and I represent Malamois. Yeah, Buddha Malamois. I represent a lot of law enforcement. Yeah. And I've been through it, so I know what it's like to be, you know, the news story of the day. And and and you hear all the stories of what people are saying, and it's like nowhere nearer the truth of what's actually going on. And I think that that's made me better now when I'm representing law enforcement officers, because I know I've been there, I know what it's like. And so many times the politics get involved in stuff that people are accused of. Well, and that's one thing I don't miss because I don't have to worry about that what I do off duty, and you know, I don't do anything wrong, but I don't have to worry about who I hang out with or what you know what I do. And I don't miss that part of law enforcement. What people don't understand is when you're in law enforcement, you're expected to be this perfect, yeah, you know, walk the straight line, live in a glasshouse, you know, and that's not who people are. People are gonna make mistakes, people make poor decisions.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:28

Yeah, it's gonna happen. I would tell you something, I so agree. And like Heron Town. Okay. John Q citizen gets arrested for let's just say domestic violence. We see John Smith arrested for DUI or domestic violence. That's all people know. Flip it. Police officer John Smith. Dude, now it's a press release. Now it's on the front page of everything. Now it's become this uh thing, and what it does is it really shows you anything that a cop does, the spotlight just shines that much brighter on that incident. And um, you know, um, and it's sad because I mean I know we're held to a higher standard. I agree with that. But however, you're right, cops do that, or they're humans, and humans make mistakes. And just because somebody's a cop, I don't want to see somebody get uh hammered more than the average person.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:28

I think we're entitled to due process like everybody else. I want it to be fair, I want it to be clean, and let's get on down the road. Yep. Um, how do you mentally prepare to step into a violent crime scene knowing what you're about to see?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:46

All right. So that there's two parts of that this because now when I step into a crime scene, it's long done and it's pictures and I'm going back to the scene way after things happen and try to put things together. So that's not that difficult.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:57

But I would tell you this. We both stepped into where the brains and blood is still dripping from the ceiling. That I I know I would tell you this for the folks at home. If you think it's easy, it's not. And I don't know about you, but when we would step into those things and you still got the dead body here, and you got the blood and the brains dripping from the ceiling, it gets eerily quiet. And everything moves very slow. Yes, and you're like walking around. Yes. And I mean, we would step into those things and it had just happened, and dude, the back, the hairs on the back of my neck used to go ding ding-ding ding-ding. And dude, even though you got a gun in your hand, you're still like, oh my God, what is getting, you know, and it's a lot to take in. Now you trying to come in after the fact, now you're trying to piece together what truly happened.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:45

Right. So um you mentioned a case earlier where uh about a guy that was beheaded at at the prison. Yes. Um, so I was on that case briefly, and when I, well, not briefly, I was actually on it for a while. When I initially got the crime scene photos of that case, I've gotten so cold to those situations. I was working at home looking at those pictures and I was eating my dinner.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:06

As I pop open the screen of this beheaded inmate.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:09

And that's putting it mildly at Corcoran Prison. And I'm just eating away. I it doesn't even look real at that point. It looks like a scene from a movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:17

I will tell you this. I got to see one of the photographs right after it happened. Somebody screenshotted it, and I think some people actually got in trouble over that. There was a lot of cities that got in trouble for but somebody took a screenshot and it went from person to person to person to person. So ended up with one of the pro agents. The pro agent showed it to us. And I tell you something, folks. This cell, it looked like a body had just exploded in the cell. There was blood everywhere. And uh the suspect, he looks about half nuts with all those tats all over his face.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:51

That is about four foot eight and a small guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:54

And you know what, you know what sad part? They ain't gonna do nothing to him.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:59

I mean, he he wasn't gonna get out anyways, and now he'll just, you know, just gonna be what it is. But it's sad, you know, and again, it's sad to see what other human beings can do to other human beings. Right. That's probably the the the tough part. Um what separates a strong defense investigation from a weak one in your eyes?

SPEAKER_04 1:36:24

I think that you have to set aside personal beliefs and whatever the crime may be. You have to set aside personal feelings and know that no matter what this person did, you have it's your job to do the best investigation possible. Um you know I'm never you're never gonna hear me say that any of my clients deserve to go to prison. I just don't think that's a good line coming from me from what I do. But um I will say that no matter what happens to my client, they need I want them to always go away with knowing that I worked my butt off to try to get what you could for it. I try to mitigate the situation as much as I possibly could. Um, so I think I see a lot of other investigators that do defense work that make comments like, you know, I don't give a shit what happens to my client, I'm just here to make the money. Yeah. Um I think that belief in me comes from going through having to deal with accusations made against you. And it'll change you. It will change you. And you know, I I don't think I would sleep well at night, no matter what my client did, if I just half-assed an investigation and said, you know what, I don't agree with what he did. He probably did it, you know. I'm gonna sleep good on the money I made. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm just not going to.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:45

I always say this. Um I believe in the system. Is the system flawed? 100%. But I believe in the system of this. I think everyone's entitled to due process. I think everyone's entitled to the best defense possible.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:01

That's what our country was founded upon. That's what the rule of law was founded upon. And I want to see people, if if they're gonna get their day in court, then I want them to, you know, I want to have that because guess what? God forbid, I ever find myself in that position, you'd be damn sure I want somebody like you on my case because I want to have the best defense possible. That's what I believe in. I may not believe in the criminal and I may not believe in what he did, but I believe that he's entitled to due process. I do believe in that. And I think that I think our country, we do it better than most, but again, there's no utopia, there's no perfect situation, and all we can do is give people the best we got to give and see what happens. So, um, how often do you see missed evidence or overlooked witnesses? And what does that say about the system?

SPEAKER_04 1:38:55

Every case I work. Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah. Here's what I'll say. That's why I wrote that. That's why I wrote that. Here's what I'll say. Sometimes things are missed on purpose, in my opinion. And I'll explain that in a minute. I think some things are missed because law enforcement is just overworked and too busy.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:10

I was gonna say, I think a lot of it is it's it almost becomes too much work. And I think a lazy investigator can go, we interviewed three witnesses, but there's two other ones. Screw those other two. Let's just go with the three. Even though maybe one of the other witnesses could be the thing that breaks the case.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:31

But so I'll give you the long-winded answer on that part of it. Is I believe there's some agencies like Fresno, they're going call. I mean, they log on and there's 40 calls holding us for service already. So the patrol officers are out there getting the basic information, right? And taking the reports, and they're not maybe interviewing the four other people that were also there. Yeah. Right. Then it goes to a detective who is the new generation who became a detective two years after he became patrol. We talked about this earlier. And they don't go out and re-interview these people. So now it's my job to go re-interview these people. And it gives sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes it gives a completely different viewpoint of what actually happened that day. It may not clear the person accused of what they've been accused of, but it gives a better insight or narrative on what happened. It mitigates it a little bit, it explains it better of what happened. Right? I I totally agree. So there's that part of it, but there's the political part of it too. Yeah. I just had a big case of a local Vicelli man who was accused of murder in Madera County. Um, that was all over the news. Um he was accused of a murder up in Raymond. Um, John Jackson and I were hired on that case. Um they focused on him the entire time when there was all this other evidence pointing to it was somebody else. Is that case already over and done now? The cases have been dismissed, so I'm not gonna go, it was dismissed. So they have not charged anybody at this point. But the day the on the Friday before trial was supposed to start, we submitted an 80-page report that I wrote on information that they had, but they didn't want to follow up on. I did, that pretty much gave enough reasonable doubt that it was probably not Linny who did this.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:10

I was gonna say, uh, I had heard through the grapevine, and you know, I mean, I know you can't say, but I will. Uh hey, I heard that there was somebody on a phone call that may have coped to this whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:20

And yeah, so that there's a lot of information out there that that they had their eyes focused on him. He was the rich, you know, white guy that was up there, that it had to be him. And those detectives went all out to try to prove that it was him.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:33

You know what's sad too is, you know, I I don't know him personally, but you know, his family's been part of this uh community forever. And, you know, uh, you're right, wealthy people. And I think that there comes a point in time where I think some of these detectives are like, we're gonna take this rich dude down. And and you know, but you know, and so here's what's sad about Visei. We're still small town, but we're big, but we're still small. Right. And so, you know, then you start hearing all the rumors, you know, that uh Lenny was in this coked out thing and all this stuff, and he killed her and all this, and then it all comes out that none of that happened. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:42:10

In a any high-profile case, that's how it is, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:12

And and it's but I'm glad, I'm glad that the truth came out, uh, because I do not want to see anybody in prison that didn't do it. Right. I think, and you know this, and I hate to say this, but the system fails sometimes. It does. And I think that that case was a prime example where if not for your due diligence, it probably would have failed. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:40

And um, you know, so anyways.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:42

And and the other unfair part of the system, too, is a lot of people can't afford to hire the strong defense teams to defend them. Oh, and their case gets assigned to a public defender who has 300 cases and doesn't even remember your name most of the time. And, you know, there's that argument too. That client that we just talked about was able to afford one of the top attorneys in the Central Valley and me, and we worked our asses off.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:09

I will tell you this. It is so funny. I've had a lot of people call me when they get their butt in a sling. Hey, should I hire a lawyer or should I just go with a public defender? And I always tell people this if you got the money, go get you a pay lawyer.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:26

Right? A paid lawyer is gonna fight harder for you. Public defender, there's some good people there. Not gonna disparage the agency, but I I think they are underpaid, overworked, and I think things fall through. In fact, you if you talk to guys that are locked up, you know what they call pub public defenders? Dump trucks, because they'll lead you right to the prototype.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:50

I will say that I know quite a few really good attorneys that are in Telera County's public defenders office. Yeah, I'm gonna say I'm not gonna disparage them. And they're very good and they like the work they do. They like to serve the underprivileged people. So that's we need people like that. But there's other places where they're just, you know, yeah, piled on and they can't focus on the case and they don't have the funding or resources to yeah, and you know, so somebody like him that could afford it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:14

It's like uh I tell people if you got money, go get the pay lawyer. Right, right. Um have you ever uncovered something that completely changed the direction of the whole case?

SPEAKER_04 1:44:28

Case we just talked about so there was some evidence that and I I don't really want to go into details because they haven't arrested, you know, the other person. Technically, they could re-arrest anybody in that case or arrest somebody new. But there was information from a cell phone that was provided um to the district attorney that they didn't want to follow up on, so I did. And yeah, yeah, Friday before trial was supposed to start, case dismissed.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:52

I was gonna say, um, I had heard from around the way, just through stuff like that, that hey, something big popped at the last second, and and he walked, and he walked. And you know what? And good on him. Uh, because here's the thing again, I don't want uh innocent people sitting in jail. That is when I think our system truly fails. Um what is the hardest part of staying objective when emotions, families, and lives hang in the balance?

SPEAKER_04 1:45:26

It's hard. It's hard when you know what really happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:30

But you can't say what really happened. Yes. Um it's hard talking to clients' families knowing stuff they don't know. Yeah. It's hard pre-trial trying to explain to district attorneys or the other side why we shouldn't be doing what we're doing. But we don't want to give that information to them yet because if we go to trial, we need to use that every time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a chess game. So it's hard sometimes keeping in what you know really happened and not being able to explain it to people who are upset and mad and angry and oh I had some dude, I had some families rip into me, man, and I'm like, hey, listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:10

Everything that you're being told by your family member is not the way you think it is. And that's how I've told them. I go, no, I can't go into specifics, but I'm just telling you, there's things that I'm seeing, and there's things that I'm reading, and there's things that are in play that you don't know about. And so before you want to lop my head off, just understand this. Everything is not what it seems.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:38

Right. And the other part of that too is when you develop a reputation like I have, and some of the attorneys I work with have, the families of the people think that we're gonna save their loved one no matter what. And and you can't save everybody. Sometimes there's no saving pressure that they put on you to save their loved one when you know there's probably no saving here. We're gonna try to mitigate it as best I can we can and try to get them as the least amount of time possible. But it that's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:06

Well, I'm gonna tell you this technology now has changed the game. And hey, I've seen people get convicted because of door cams, dude. You know what I mean? Yeah, and so I tell people this it's not like the old days where we could almost pretty sure he did it. Now we know you did it. And and you know, and now with everybody with a damn cell phone, you know this, bro. There's so much stuff that comes out that you don't even want to be out, but it's coming out because guess what? Somebody wanted to upload it to YouTube.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:39

It's all I'll give three defense legal advices right now for your viewers. One, shut the fuck up, don't talk, two, leave your cell phone at home. Yeah. And three, make sure there's no cameras in it. Yeah, specifically ringing doorbells.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:52

You know what? You know, you know what's hilarious? My wife loves to listen to uh like you know, um like 48 hours and stuff as she goes to bed. That's her like jam, right? A lot of times I'm already asleep, you know, because we've already lived it, right? And so, but she always in the morning, you know, she always tells me, you know what gets you know what gets more people? The shoes, the blood splatter on the shoes, right? People don't realize that. And if a lot of people would just get rid of the damn shoes, things would go smoother, but it's not that's not how people think, right, right. And um, but you know, um, it's it's so funny. Uh your what people don't realize, your cell phone it tracks you the whole time. Treasure chest, it is a flexible. I always tell people, and if you think you had that cell phone, I had it turned off, I'm like, that don't matter. It's still tracking you, it's taking you from cell tower to cell tower, it's triangulating you, it's showing everybody right where you're at, timestamps, everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:01

Everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:02

Um yeah, so don't commit crime, but if you do, leave your cell phone at home on a phone call to your mom. Uh what is it really like working side by side with defense attorneys on cases where everything is at stake? I'm sure that can be kind of exciting at times.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:23

It is exciting. It's, you know, um, we hated defense attorneys when we're in law enforcement. They come after us. You know, there's a couple of them that I work with now that came after me when I was a cop on the standard.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:33

I'll tell you that there's a bunch of defense attorneys here in Terrell. I hate them now.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:37

Yeah, but you know, some of the best defense attorneys I work with were former prosecutors before that. So, um one of the things that I I really love about what I do now is I've met some of the greatest people and that have become not only people I work for and work with, but have become lifelong friends. Miss Penninghoff was, you know, officiated my wedding. Her kids call me Uncle Brian. Um, One of my other closest attorneys just became a judge and his daughter's interning with me. And um, you know, getting to work with these people and seeing how most of them have the same was no uh I did work for Roger, okay. He just became a judge, but uh that was Jim Trevino in Kings County.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:20

Okay, so I was gonna say I just ran into Roger um at a function where I was doing some um I was doing dignitary protection and he walked up and we started talking and uh I said uh congratulations on becoming a judge. That's a pretty cool thing. But I said, but I hate to see you leave what you were doing because he represented cops and he did it damn well. Very well. And um, I think that's a it's not good for the cops out here because it's gonna be hard to really replace somebody of his caliber, but a high caliber.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:56

Yeah, something he always wanted. Uh, I'm so happy. He's so happy. He's gonna be a very fair, I think he's gonna be very fair. I do too judge.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:02

I do too. You know who I just ran into with this uh same thing was um female judge. Um and you know, she is another one, Sarah Bratch. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:51:14

My vice office is her all the office turning.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:17

And you know, and I'm gonna tell you something. I I've I I've always loved her. She's just, you know what, she was always great to cops. I thought she was uh, you know, she's always been very good at her job. And um, you know, but you see these people when they do make judge, it's great for them and it's great for the system, but it's it it's tough to replace people of that caliber. Right. That's gonna be uh the real conundrum. Um have you ever been convinced someone was innocent and had to fight for them?

SPEAKER_04 1:51:50

Yeah. Many times.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:52

Many times. We've talked about two of the biggest cases recently, uh, with the Vicelli case and the the dog case.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:58

Um, but there's been other clients that just it didn't happen. Yeah. And luckily, we either got it dismissed or they were acquitted at a jury. But yeah, yeah, not a lot, you know, everybody's innocent until proven guilty. That's the company line, right? Yeah. But that there are truly people out there that have been falsely accused.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:16

Oh, big time. And I I would tell you something, and we both have seen people fall for stuff where we thought, well, you know this stuff that should get filed doesn't, and stuff that you don't think is gonna get filed gets filed. And it's politics. Yes, yes. Um at this stage of your career, what does justice truly mean to you?

SPEAKER_04 1:52:43

Justice is uh whatever outcome comes about, as long as everybody's rights were protected, work was diligently done, and all the evidence and stuff was put out there, um, the presentation was made, and whatever the jury at that point decides, decides.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:02

As long as everything was allowed to be out there that needed to be out there, um, then that's justice.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:09

I tell you something, and you know what has really was a is tough for me is I hate to see hung juries, and especially when it's one holdout.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:18

We love hung juries.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:19

I I know, yeah, I know on in your side, but on the law enforcement side, and for people at home, a hung jury is this eleven people say guilty, one person holds out and says not guilty, or for whatever reasons, refuses to go all in.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:36

The numbers don't always have to be a one-to-one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:40

Yeah. But is what it is, is what I tell people is a hung jury is a win for the defense. It's a win for the defense, but it's frustrating. Um, I would tell you something. Um, the Daniel Green case, that was a prime example. When that first thing went through and it was a hung jury, we were shocked, right? And thank God they went back and redid it. But um, you know, it's like you look at stuff like that, and you just think well, you got to remember all 12 of those people have different life experiences.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:14

And that's one thing, you know. Not only do I do investigations, but I sit there at trial, and and one of the things I become good at is helping pick a jury.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:21

And I mean, the reality is, depending on what the case is, we have a profile of who we want to be on that jury.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:27

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:28

And it's a it's a it's a game, it's a big poker game.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:31

Well, and for prime example, like if I was to try to be on a jury, we don't want you. You don't want me. You're like, like, get him out of here, you know. Uh, white, former law enforcement, nope, educated, they don't want that. Uh, get him out of here. And it's sad because um, yeah, there is. I mean, you're right, it's a chess game. And you know, you guys are trying to do what you guys got to do, and I understand it. Um, what qualifies someone as an expert in police procedures, and how did you uh rise into that role?

SPEAKER_04 1:55:04

So uh obviously, my law enforcement experience, um, being a training officer, you know, teaching a little bit, and then my education. Yeah. So my my bachelor's degrees in criminal justice, my master's degrees in criminal justice, my um doctorate when I finally finish that damn dissertation will be in criminal justice.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:25

And a lot of the classes we took was police procedure, how to do things, why people, you know, how you're supposed to do things. I go to training as a defense investigator all the time of what the law is and what, you know, what's supposed to be happening out there when crimes are investigated. Um and because of that knowledge and experience, I mean, altogether now I've been I've been a defense investigator for far longer now than I was in law, or five years longer than I was in law enforcement. So 26 years now, I've been doing this 31 if you count my explorer time in the criminal justice field. So um I started putting that on a resume and got hired on a couple cases to look at what the police had done on cases, and um was asked to see if we get me qualified as an expert. So the first place I was qualified was in Fresno County, and the judge qualified me as an expert and the DA didn't object to it, and and I presented my case of why I should be an expert. And ever since then, I've been an expert on multiple cases in Fresno County, Kings County.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:21

I would tell you this uh for the folks at home. Um my resume is uh I don't know, let's say five pages long. Okay. I had Brian send me his CV. His CV was 19 pages long. I was looking at this stuff, and I'm not gonna lie, dude, I was impressed. You know what? Um, you know, all the associations, all the cases you've worked, um, I mean, it just went on and on and on and on and on. And finally I even was like, well, we can't talk about all this shit because we'd be here for 12 hours. But I was impressed with your resume. I mean, dude, just to be able to say that you got a resume that that's that long.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:07

Well, you know what what I tell people is if you want to learn about something and you want to be proficient in the field you work, you gotta get educated.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:14

Damn right.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:14

And I've you know, I go to every training I can. And the good thing about the defense training is a lot of times it's in Las Vegas. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So, you know, I go to every kind of training I can go to. I mean, it's different. I wish I was still at the PD where they paid for your education. Now I gotta pay for it out of my pocket most of the time. But you know, if you want to know and know how things are supposed to be and be the best at what you do, you gotta educate yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:38

I would tell you this. I know you had to go through the fire, crucible fire at the PD, but I honestly believe you are where you're supposed to be. I really think that, dude. I I and you know, and um I just think that there's people like you that need to be out here doing this type of work. And, you know, God bless you, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:05

And uh I told you I thank Mestus every day, every time I talked to her. Thank you for firing me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, push it pushed. She goes, where are we going on our next vacation? I'm like, wherever you want to go. Yeah, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:17

Well, it pushed you towards it. Yeah, yeah. Um what was it like taking the stand for the first time knowing your credibility would be tested relentlessly?

SPEAKER_04 1:58:31

Are we talking as a defense investigator? Yeah. Uh I was nervous that it would be questioned, but my credibility's never been questioned as a as a defense investigator. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously the typical questions from the prosecutor, you know, are you, you know, was your investigation focused on just helping the, you know, no matter what, helping the client or whatever, on that kind of stuff. But my my general credibility has never been questioned.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:52

Good.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:53

Um, and and in reality, I don't testify that often as a defense investigator. Yeah, I testify more now as a police procedure expert than as a defense investigator. But there are times where our witnesses that we've interviewed change their stories, and I gotta get up and up and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:11

Witnesses change their stories? Say it ain't so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um how do prosecutors typically challenge your testimony and how do you prepare for that?

SPEAKER_04 1:59:23

The biggest challenge is well, when was the last time you worked law enforcement? And I say 2009.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's been a minute.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:30

And and then and then they start to challenge it, but then I my response is all my education, all the training, you know, continuing education. I mean, even though it's defense oriented a lot on the trainings that I go to, um, it's still focused on how to do investigations, what should be doing, what the law is, yeah, what procedures should be in following.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:49

I would say this, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:51

And I've read, you know, I was I read a police report once a day at least.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:54

Yeah. Well, and I was gonna say, for guys like me and you, we're both very highly educated. You're probably one of the few people that's come on here that's probably more educated than me. Um, you know, and you realize um every bit of education you can get just makes you that much better of a cop. I just think it makes you better as a person. I really do. And, you know, I think that educated people, I think we tend to make better decisions. We tend to be a little bit more level-headed. Um, it doesn't mean that we have to become academic elitists and think that we're better than people, but I just tell people, like I, you know, in fact, I speak at the college sometimes, and what I tell these kids is this every time if you want to make yourself powerful, make yourself educated. Yep. You're right.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:42

So many cops don't get an education, and then something happens where they, you know, maybe they lose their job, maybe they get hurt, and what are you gonna do and make that kind of money?

SPEAKER_02 2:00:50

Well, what uh a cop that gets fired in this day and age with no education, you're qualified to go work guard dog security. And you know, um What does the general public misunderstand about police procedures and use of force?

SPEAKER_04 2:01:08

Well, we always hear that line why didn't he shoot him in the leg?

SPEAKER_02 2:01:11

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:14

Why did they shoot the gun out of the hand? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:16

Or why do you have to wrestle him down to the ground? Um, I think my and I even get asked that by some defense attorneys. Why did they do this? And that's caused some conflict with some of my really liberal defense attorneys when they're trying to, you know, tell me I need, you know, we need you to testify this way about why they should have done that. And I'm like, no, that's what I would have done. Yeah. Right in that same situation. So I think until you walk in their shoes, until you have a gun pointed at you, or you fight somebody, or so on, then you're never gonna, the the public's never gonna understand the thought of what's going through law enforcement's head. They're not.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:55

They're not. And I will tell you something. I was a very aggressive police officer, and it saved my life more times than not. And I remember people would be like, you know, man, well, you man, you body slammed me. And I'm like, Yeah, as you're trying to punch me in my face, right? I go, Yes, I body slammed you. Uh, yes, I put my knee in the back of your neck until we got you handcuffed. I remember right after Floyd, you know, people would be like, You put your, you put your your knee on my neck. I'm like, yeah, I did for like 40 seconds, right, versus eight, eight minutes and 40 something seconds with Floyd, right? And so I but people have this misconception that we can't do that.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:34

Well, and I think the problem now is is everything's on video, everything's on the video. 100%. Yeah. And what what's happened to law enforcement is the bad cops who go one step further after the use of force incident should be over. That's poisoned every use of force incident that happens moving forward.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:52

Oh, big time. I would tell you something. Remember, I mean, we, you know, we're 2,000 miles away from where Floyd happened, right? And like I remember right after that, people are like, why don't you guys go kill George Floyd? And I'm like, hey, bro, this is California. Uh I don't have anything to do with what happens back there. And you know this, and John Q Citizen doesn't know this. Law enforcement changes when you go east of the Mississippi.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:18

It changes when you leave California. Yes. There's no law enforcement in our country that's trained like California.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:23

Yeah, we are the we are the premier uh law enforcement. Uh, but yeah, dude, I was a New Orleans man, dude. I watched these cops, dude. I mean, drive down a road going 20 miles an hour and just hitting people with cars, trampling people with horses, doing all this other stuff that if we were to do this in in California, we would have got torched. Right. But there's something about law enforcement, deep south, deep east. You get Baltimore PD, LA PD, uh, uh, you know, your big Chicago. Look what's going on in Chicago. I mean, dude, it's a it's a whole different ballgame. Um, do you believe expert testimony can shift the mindset of a jury?

SPEAKER_04 2:04:07

Depends on the situation.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:09

Because there's an expert for everything now.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:11

Yes, there is.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:11

And some of these topics that there's people that are experts in, it's just it just it's not believable. For example, there's an expert that testifies in Fresno a lot, uh, a child sexual assault expert who basically says no child can ever lie about being sexual assaulted. If they say they were sexually assaulted, they were sexually assaulted.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:30

Not true.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:30

That is bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:31

That is not true. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:33

There's moms that are going through divorces that put stuff in their kids'. They have coached the kids in the coach the kids, and now there's allegations made. So can I think in police procedure it gives a perspective? It may not change the mind of the jury, but it at least gives a perspective of how things should have been done. Oh, I get that, I get that. And most of the time, you know, look, I'm not gonna bash law enforcement and say they're screwing up all the time because they're not. But they're but when they do, then somebody who is a police procedure expert needs to come in and say this is how it should have been done.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:04

I've often said this our wins very seldom get put out there.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:10

Our failures get picked apart in the media. And, you know, there's all these people who have never worked a day in patrol, but they are social media people, and now they think somehow they're they're an expert in law enforcement. And um how vital is expert testimony in death penalty cases?

SPEAKER_04 2:05:30

I think when it comes to um mitigation and explaining the childhood problems or experiences of a client to mitigate why they shouldn't get the death penalty if that were to come up in a trial, I think that's very important.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:47

Um You know, there's a lot of times where there's death penalty cases where the evidence pretty clear that maybe the client probably did the crime.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:56

Yeah. But just video, man, it's hard.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:59

But the the expert testimony for mitigation and explaining mental health issues or and that and that's huge. I mean, mental health is 90% of what what I look into now. There's mental health almost in every case I do. Um, because it's is it overblown? Maybe a little bit, but but everybody has issues.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:17

I was gonna say, I used to, you know, and I I brought this up, and people don't like to hear this. Most of the people that we deal with out here in patrol are either suffering from mental health issues, drug addiction, or alcoholism. And a lot of times it's all three things in the same person, and then they expect us to walk up to these people and go, pretty pleased with sugar on top where you put your hands behind your back. And it doesn't work. These people, a lot of them have anger management issues. Uh, you know what? And this is a bold statement, and people aren't gonna want to hear this, but it's true. A lot of these people out here on the streets, when you really get to talking to them and you can get them in a comp, a lot of these people suffer from prior sexual assault. Yep. Uh, they have never uh come to terms with those issues, and it really guides their thought process, and a lot of these people are just angry, angry people. And then you get somebody jumps out of a car with a gun and a badge on, and I've had people try to take my head off just because I'm wearing that badge. Right. And you know, uh, by the grace of God, I was strong enough to to endure and come out on top. But you know, this I think there's been a lot of cops killed because I think we do we have to give people that benefit of the doubt, and that little bit of a benefit of the doubt is all it takes. And I think a lot of cops, and I think I even brought this up. I think body cams have made it where cops they they basically they fail to act because the camera's going and now they're dead. Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:51

You just said something a minute ago that made me think um that I see a lot in the in law enforcement now that I didn't maybe see before, but I see now is one thing good cops need to learn is to not take situations personal.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:05

It's not personal. You just happen to be wearing the badge and you don't have that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or whatever crime was committed, it's not personal. It's your job to be objective and do an investigation. Don't take the investigation personal that you need to hang the guy or girl by the cross.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:20

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:21

Don't take things personal.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:22

I tell you something, the only time I took it personal is when they tried to take my head off. Uh that's it's it's pretty hard not to take it personal. But of course, but you know what? Um, like when I was in charge of Mooney, you know, man, I was the angel of death down here. If you got caught shoplifting, you were going to jail. And a lot of times I was gonna charge you with burglary. Now you can't do that now. But back in those days, I charge everybody. And what it did was is I wanted all of it to come to a stop. And for a while it did. Um, but things have changed. I mean, you know, the even when they change it from $400 to $950 to make it from the felony to misdemeanor, right? Just stupid. You know what I mean? Um, all right. We already talked about the Geiger case. We talked about the Shaka. All right. The Nikki Stane case recently aired on 2020. For the folks at home, I actually got to see Brian on 2020, man. Bitching, dude. And what was it like seeing a case you worked on broadcast nationally? That must have been cool.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:22

It was cool. Um, the the whole case had so many different things that reminded, you know how you said things in life intersect?

SPEAKER_02 2:09:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:32

Well, when that the Debbie Dur Doyan murder happened in Fresno, that was the summer I graduated high school. I remember that because it was a huge deal. That was a big deal. She went to the same high school I went to. Um, you know, she came from a fluent family.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:46

Plus, that apartment was a nice part of town. Right. People were up in arms over that. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:51

Then I, you know, then he gets arrested 25, 26 years later, however many years later it was. Um, initially, um, that was during COVID. So I got hired on the case after he had been arrested for about three years because of my death penalty work, and they were trying to, you know, seek the death penalty on him. The attorney sought me out, and we worked that case. I get the case and I'm like, well, uh, first I got to see if I have a conflict because he allegedly committed crimes in Viselia, too. And I was working at Viselia the last part of that. So I had to make sure I wasn't involved in any of those cases. And then we get this, you know, case that has 30,000 pages of discovery. Most of it's handwritten from back in the 90s. Um, so I couldn't just put it in my computer and do a word search. First things I'm looking at to read these terrible handwriting cop reports from Fresno PD from the 90s, and trying to figure out how are we going to defend a case from 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:48

When, you know, the witnesses, he our client remembered he only knew first names. It was before like cell phones. I mean, cell phones were there, but they weren't there. It was before the internet that was there. Um it was a fascinating case, but it was a case.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:02

Let me ask you this. Um so for the folks at home who haven't seen it. Why did he um put the duct tape on her face?

SPEAKER_04 2:11:12

That was a question I always thought I can't answer that question because of attorney client privilege. I will say that our defense at trial would have been it was an accident. Got it. And and there was a lot of information that I would love to say. Yeah, no, I get it. That the that the police and DA buried that would give you not not justifying anything, yeah, but would give you a little bit of a different perspective.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:40

I will tell you this. So I watched the 2020 episode because I knew you were on there, and then there was a bunch of guys from Vice A PD on there, and so I wanted to see it firsthand. I think Nicky Stein is a prime example, is if he would have shut up, I think uh because he went into the box with Vice A P D and gave. They've like a cop to a bunch of sexual assaults here in town, and which was surprising to me because most of them don't do that. So I was really surprised about that.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:09

The jail calls.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:10

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And then got recorded and then coped to the murders or cop to the sexual assaults and said, Yes, I did do this stuff. But um one thing I wanted to ask you, and I don't know if you could talk about it, was why did the initial sexual assault, why did they show up with multiple detectives and multiple uh patrol officers? Because I've never seen that happen.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:33

And the victim in the case that that was on that show, and I'm not going to name names.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:38

Yeah, yeah, I definitely I would never out, I would never out a victim.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:41

She had a relative that was a district attorney at that time.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:46

Yeah. And um I will tell you this. I didn't know Nicki Stein. I never talked to Nicki Stein, but I'm glad that Nicki Stein is in jail because clearly dangerous individuals.

SPEAKER_04 2:12:56

So the the fascinating thing about that case, just as a full philosophical why people commit crime, usually you start low and end up doing a murder. Yes. He went backwards. Yes. He did a murder first, then he does these sexual assaults, and then he's crime free for 25 years.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:12

His personal life was, you know, yeah, questionable, but nothing ewigal. Yeah. Um, but he went backwards, which is is unusual.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:22

And here's what's funny when I see them take him down. Um, they got him at the mall. Well, I used to be the officer in charge of the mall. So, you know, I'm like, I wonder if I ever talked to this dude back in the day again. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 2:13:34

And uh you know, I had people messaging me on social media after they saw me on 2020 saying, I used to work for that guy at whatever restaurant in Fresno or what I'm like, oh my god. Yeah. Small world.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:45

It is a small world, but uh I really wish they would have gone into your thing a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:51

I understand why they didn't. They're kind of focused towards the victims, and they should. I mean, as a sad story, you know, I didn't. Yeah, you know, it's funny though, they interviewed me for three hours and I was only only about 45 seconds. But there's reasons behind that. No, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:07

Yeah, but um I was I was glad to see the outcome of me personally, because I just think um clearly to kill somebody and then to do the sexual assaults, clearly I I don't want this person not walking the streets. Um what challenges come with defending law enforcement officers in criminal cases?

SPEAKER_04 2:14:31

The political part of it. Oh, yeah. The the the the media coverage, the just it's you know, every court appearance is on TV. Oh yeah. Everything, you know, the rumors going around, like we've talked about the rumors going on, you know what you hear. This is what happened. No, this is what happened. Um, you know, that I'm not saying that off law enforcement shouldn't be held to a higher standard. Of course you should.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:54

But when it comes to criminal accusations or whatever else, you should be treated the same as any other person accused in those times. And they're not. Um, you know, you see agencies come out and convict their own employees before they're ever convicted, and then they never even get convicted.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:10

Um, you know, it's just it's difficult. I I mean, I hate, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:15

I would tell you something. I learned a valuable thing during the Brian and Chain case. Okay. They do this big press release. These guys are going to prison for 20 years each, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember at the press conference, I remember looking at somebody and said, Man, I sure would have liked to hear that they're entitled to due process like everybody else. And a supervisor heard me say that, kind of yelled at me, hey, you shouldn't be saying that. And I said, Why not?

SPEAKER_04 2:15:45

That's the law.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:45

I go, it is the law. And then, you know, they ended up doing no time. And, you know, it was it wasn't what we were told. And and I'm wise enough to not to believe that I I think that I be just because it's a cop, I think it just gets blasted out. Um, I think in the recent one in Vicea, I think a lot of stuff got blasted out. Who knows what's gonna happen? I know we can't talk about it. I'm not even gonna ask you about it. But again, um, I don't know why we have to do these big press releases. And, you know, hey, if you want to put out something in written form, great. But I think it just becomes this uh we're gonna do this interview, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this big thing, we're stomping out police corruption, we're doing all these things. And it's like, dude, come on, man. You know, give people the same courtesy that uh the you know, junk you citizen would get.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:37

Right. Well, and the other unfair thing about it is it's blasted in the media initially and by the agencies, and then if it resolves in a positive nature, do you ever hear about that? Hell no. No, no, so or do you ever check on these people to see how successful they are afterwards? I mean, yeah, uh you know, like the canine case. He is making tons of money, he's happy, he's got a great job. None of that's ever covered. Yeah, you know, this is the first time in 16 years I've kind of talked about where I'm at in an open setting after everything that happened to me. Yeah. Um, because you just remember those headlines.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:10

Yeah. And you know what? Um, again, I I just I always say this. I think cops, they get convicted in the court of public opinion before the case even gets adjudicated, right? And it's like, hey man, uh just because we're cops, it doesn't mean that people don't make mistakes. I want to see these, I mean, do I want to see people held accountable? Yes, I do. And but I I think that they should be entitled to the same and the best defense possible, right? That's what I'm gonna say. Um, you've taught at academies, instructed weaponless defense, and trained officers for years. Why has teaching always been central to your identity?

SPEAKER_04 2:17:54

I like to share my experience and my knowledge with people. Um I want to give them all the tools they can have to make themselves successful. I love success stories.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:06

You know, I love hearing from like my old explorers that are in law enforcement and where they're at now or whatever they're doing in their lives. Um, anybody I've taught when I hear the success stories, and it was because of knowledge I gave them, knowledge their other training officers gave them, or their instructors give give them. I like to share. I, you know, I'm fortunate in my life where I'm at right now to get all this education and I want to share that with people so they can, you know. I can't do this forever. I'm grooming one of my former explorers now who works for me that I hope at some point he takes over my company. Yeah. Because I I would like to retire at some point. Yeah. Um and and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:42

So I just how old are you now, brother? 48. Okay. So go to 60.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:46

What are you looking at? Who knows? Okay. It depends.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:49

I would tell you this. Um 50 would have been nice. Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh I will tell you something. You know what's so funny is um I think the same way you do. Um, you know, back when I was growing up um in these neighborhoods, um, drug dealer looked pretty good back then. Right. And um I'm very proud of the fact that I got out, did a 25-year career, got to retire, uh, and then became highly educated. I'm very proud of that. And it is, it's a it's a it's a success story. You are clearly a success story. Um I like to see that. And you know, and I remember when you were going through all that stuff. I mean, you could have never looked into the future, man. But dude, I mean, I'm very proud of what you have accomplished, bro. Thanks. I mean, you know, if nobody else tells you that, I will. Um, what you do is is I think it's vital and I think it's important. And um, you know, again, I mean, uh not many people come in here that are more educated than me, and I'll say it, you're more educated than me. Um what was it like being a recruit training officer at COS and shaping officers from day one?

SPEAKER_04 2:20:02

It was fun. Um, I think I was probably one of the more laid-back recruit training officers. I was never in the military, and you know, so you're not gonna be a screaming and yelling at the time. I'm not gonna scream and I, you know, and and I'm not talking bad about the military, but when I see like videos of the the drill sergeants yelling at the people, I just laugh and say, How stupid is that? Um, I get why they do it. So don't take that the wrong way if you're a former military. Yeah, but I get it. But I, you know, I I wanted to be somewhere, someone there that if they had a question or they wanted, you know, to know an answer to something, I wanted to be there to help them. And I wanted to shape them to to do the right thing and to teach them the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:36

Well, you're talking to a former military guy, and I would tell you this. I think people learn better when they're comfortable. I don't think people learn when they're screaming and yelling. Uh, I think Marines do it better than most, uh, but that's very high stress and that's a lot of screaming and yelling. Um but um I I do. I think people just learn better when they're calm, cool, collected, or when you're putting pressure on people and you're doing I I've seen it and you've seen it. People go into vapor lock and they don't learn. Um what do recruits struggle with the most during the early parts of training?

SPEAKER_04 2:21:18

Back then, and I'm gonna assume it's the same now, um, talking to people is number one. I think that's the biggest, the biggest thing, the biggest tool you have in your toolbox, and this and I've taught this in the security classes I've taken and and in classes I've taught after law enforcement. Your biggest tool is your mouth. Oh, yeah. If you don't know how to talk your way out of a situation, then you're never gonna be truly good at what you do. Yeah, you have to constantly put hands on people to fix the situation or use force or do something that's not, you know, not just talking them down, then you're weak in that area. You need to learn how to talk to people and you need to know that everybody's different and there's not one specific way to talk to you as there would be the next person or the next person. And that just comes with experience. Um, I know there was some controversy recently that they said that all cops should now have a college education and stuff, and there were some people, oh, we shouldn't do that. I absolutely think that you should have an education, and I think you shouldn't be a cop till you're 25 years old.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:17

I think uh I think a minimum of at least a um associate's degree. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:22:22

Um you gotta have some life experience. Now, this is coming from someone who became a cop a month after you turned 25. Yeah, yeah. No, so it was different then. No, it is nowadays with the new generation, they gotta have more life experience. They gotta know how to talk to people because too many people are on their phones or on their computers all day. That's how they talk to people by text message or by instant message on a social media app. You gotta you gotta learn to talk to people.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:44

No, you do. And um back when I started, you know, I came on in 97. You're right, man. Hey, if you looked at us the wrong way, uh, you were gonna get taken to the ground.

SPEAKER_04 2:22:54

Uh if you fought you back in LA, they expected you better be getting medical clearance. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:00

And that's just not the It's not the case anymore. And you're right. I always had this way. Um I talked to people street. I I I talked to the street language, right? And more times than not, it got me out of a lot of situations because I could talk to people in the way that I knew that they identified with. Uh because if you're talking to a bunch of gangsters and you're calling a bunch of gangsters, sir, pretty soon you're gonna get attacked. You're gonna get attacked.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:29

Because I gotta look at you as weak. They need to know that you mean business. They also need to know that you know what's up. You need to know who they are, what gang they're with, where they live. And, you know, the whole time I went the gang unit, man, uh, they feared us because we knew right where they lived. And, you know, so uh when people fought us, uh, we just overwhelmed them with just numbers and then took them to the ground, hooked them up. Um, but um, you're right. It times have changed, man. And what scares me what scares me is sometimes I think we're swinging the pendulum too far sometimes. I don't know if you feel that a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 2:24:07

I think the problem is is when you have to go hands-on, you have to realize when that's over, it's over. As hard as it is, you gotta respect talk to that person in a respectful manner and calm the situation down. Because if you're still MFing them and and yelling at them and throwing them in the back of your car, you're not you're not calming the situation down.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:26

Well, also, too, I think now with body cams, I think that's taking care of that a lot. Right. Um, I think. Is it ever gonna be the end all? No, but you're right. I used to tell cops this once the cuffs are on, the shit's over. I don't want to see people punching people with handcuffs on. A couple things. Number one, it's called a psalter call of authority. It is a crime, and so there's times I've had to step between a crook and a cop and been like, hey, they're cuffed, it's over. Let's get this dude booked and let's get on down the road. Um, I think that there's caught a lot of cops that have lost their careers over that. Um how have defensive tactics changed over the years at what needs to change next?

SPEAKER_04 2:25:14

I don't know how qualified I'm to answer that now because in in my line of work now, I never put hands on people. Yeah, yeah. Um, but in good looking at watching body cam video, reading reports, I'm gonna go back to if you're gonna teach defensive tactics, part of that class should also be verbal communication, verbal judo as we used to call it. Oh yeah. I they probably still call it that. They still think it should come hand in hand. If that's not being taught together, then you're missing an opportunity to truly make somebody well-rounded to handle a situation. But some people think that they just need to oh let's go take them down right now. Well, why don't you talk to them a little bit first?

SPEAKER_02 2:25:52

I was gonna say this, and you know, when I saw this, I worked some cases when the reports don't match the video. You know, that that that's all the time. Yes, that's a big deal. And uh, you know, I I will tell you this at the end of my career, right before I retired, man, I would re-watch that video and I made sure that they were identical because the minute that the video don't match a report, then your mouth look like that you're hiding stuff or you're fabricating, or worse, you know, you're just flat out.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:28

I'll take that one step further, not only on those types of situations, but now a lot of times the detectives are using their body cams during interrogations. Yeah. You'll read their report and you're like, shit, my client is screwed. But then you listen to the video, and so many things are taken out of context, and there's certain comments that aren't in there that are like, wait a minute, I have a whole different view of what my client or the witness said compared to what the law enforcement officer is saying. Again, not bashing law enforcement for saying that you're lying, but it is what it is. It is what it is. Yeah, yeah. Make sure it matches what the recording is.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:59

Yeah. Um what does being a master taser instructor entail and what responsibility comes with that title? Yeah, you're you're looking at a guy. I think I've shot about 60 people with a taser. Right. So I'm a master taser instructor.

SPEAKER_04 2:27:16

When I first left law enforcement, I was doing the security training, is when I got involved in the taser stuff. I haven't been involved in it in probably seven or eight years now. Yeah. Um, but went to a class, got certified, then had to go to a master class, pay a lot of money so I could teach security officers or you know, the anybody in the private sector on how to use a taser. I think I got tased like four or five clock times during that class and shot all kinds of taser bullets everywhere, taser darts everywhere. Um it was painful.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:45

I was gonna say I think taser is a great tool because you know what I liked about a taser, we don't get hurt, and really the suspect doesn't get hurt, right? We incapacitate them with the electric, get them to the ground, get them hooked up, it's over. Right. And I like that. Um I remember one time they call me in, they're like, you know, you got more tasers than anybody. And I'm like, well, dude, I'm by myself, you know, because I was working Mooney by myself or Main Street by myself. And um, you know, um, I just think it's a great tool. I think as the years go by, I think it's gonna get even uh I I think it's gonna get better and better and better. And I just think it's gonna be something because then it's no longer back when we started, you know, we were going fisti-cuffs with people in this day and age. Back when I started, that is that's kind of they don't want fisti-cuffs anymore because uh it's pretty hard to justify why you why the suspect's got a black eye, blood coming out his nose, busted lip. Uh tasers don't do that.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:47

Right. Back when I started the LAP at LAPD, we checked out our taser and it was the big dust buck buster with the bigger. Oh, yeah, you have to keep it in the trunk. You couldn't, it was too big to carry it back in to get it, and you shot it. It looked like a dustbuster.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:59

That's come a long way.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:00

Oh, yeah, big time. Um, why is proper use of force training more crucial today than ever before?

SPEAKER_04 2:29:10

The spotlight on law enforcement, the cameras everywhere, the social media, the that you know, every situation's gonna be critiqued by the 10 CNN experts that are watching the video on TV and telling you what you should have done and what you should not have done and stuff like that. I mean, back before social media, I'm not saying wrong things were happening, but you didn't see the question on that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:32

Well, and I would tell you this, we both grew up during the Rodney King stuff, right? Rodney King was the first time that we saw a video of cops just stomping some dude out there. Yeah. I would tell you something. I met uh Kuhn at um one of the gang conferences, right? And he was hawking his book, right? And um it's sad because of everything that occurred because of that Rodney King incident, right? It kind of changed law enforcement. Uh law enforcement was never the same. Then think about this. Then once the riots, then think once OJ, I mean LAPD, man, they just went through uh about a four or five year I mean it was just a decade.

SPEAKER_04 2:30:23

Because then they had the when I was there, the rampart scandal was just initially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I mean the rampart was so bad that officers when I got hired in LA were signing letters in their jackets saying if I get killed in the line of duty, I do not want the police chief coming to my funeral. I mean, that the morale was that bad at that point when I was down there.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:38

Yeah. And you know, and it's sad because again, LAPD was the gold standard, man. And then I remember when they got the consent decree and all that stuff, man. It was just down the road. It's just horrible. Um, what are the most dangerous mistakes officers make under stress?

SPEAKER_04 2:30:58

Use of force.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:31:01

Shooting somebody when they don't have to shoot them. Yeah. Um or freezing. Even even the polar opposite. Under stress, they just freeze out, freeze up, and somebody gets hurt.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:12

Hey, I don't I don't know if you saw this video, but it just happened in Fresno. Uh, starts off at the mall. A guy's beating a girl in the car. Um, she takes off, actually flicks him with her car. He starts chasing her, he's ramming her car. A sergeant pulls up, jumps out, dumps a full mag into the driver's side window.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:33

And then the suspect and then dumps another full mag, and the suspect didn't get hit. I was shocked. You know, I mean remain calm. Yeah, yes, as you can.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:46

But he jumped like he dumped two full mags. Right. And I was, I remember thinking, all the suspects dead. And then he comes out, they hook him up and dust him off, and it's over. But I just remember watching that going, wow, you know, I mean, I thought it was probably the first one was justified. I don't know if about the second round was justified, but nonetheless, I mean, I don't like the second guess cops because we don't get to see what they see. But nonetheless, it just lets you know we have a say, the suspect has a say, but Murphy's law has a say as well. Um why is report writing one of the most underrated but critical skills in law enforcement?

SPEAKER_04 2:32:30

You're documenting what happened to somebody that wasn't there.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:32

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:33

And eventually that report's gonna go to somebody like me who's gonna look at it and brief it and tell the defense attorney this is messed up.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:41

Right?

unknown 2:32:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:42

This is where we need to question them. Where's this in the report? Why isn't this in the report?

SPEAKER_00 2:32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:46

Um and just be honest, you know, in your reports. Don't one-side it to make the guy look guilty or innocent. Just put the facts in there.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:57

I would tell you this.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:58

So many police reports are slanted.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:01

I would say this. I used to, when I was training new cops, I used to tell them this write this report to the best of your ability because highly educated people are gonna read this. A lawyer, a judge, and nobody wants your name, uh, Mick Williams versus so-and-so, in case law in front of the Supreme Court. And I used to tell cops, do your best on this because remember this uh this ain't gonna be the last person that reads this report. You think this goes off into the ether and nothing happens with it? It's not like that. It's there forever. And then think about this. Here's another problem. And me and you have both been there. I remember getting a subpoena from a case 12 years ago. Yep. Right? And I'm an educated man and I got a pretty good memory, but man, bro, do you think I can remember from 12 years ago after writing 12 years of reports? Then you pull these reports. And you go, I wrote that, right? Or I, you know, you have no concept, I couldn't remember nothing about it. But then I read it, and sometimes I'd be like, Oh man, thank God I wrote it. But there's there's sometimes I was like, oh shit, this is not all that great, you're right. And that happens, man. You know, it's like when you're learning your first couple years of being a cop, you're trying to just keep your head above water. Uh and I and I think that um as you get some years on, then you realize what is what is what. But I do, I honestly believe that uh we should be doing our best.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:33

The first thing they teach in the academy document everything.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:36

And do that. Document everything. Yeah. Or we're gonna just get ready for your cross-examination if you don't.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:42

Oh, yeah. Uh what separates a good officer from a truly exceptional one?

SPEAKER_04 2:34:51

The dedication to the community.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:56

So I remember, you know, back when we started, community-based policing first came on or came into play, right? And I remember hearing so many people say, you know, this is stupid, this is too touchy-feely, you know, blah, blah, blah. If you don't take into consideration the community, you're there to protect. You're yeah, you're there to enforce the law. You're there to take bad people to jail. Great. But you're also there for the community.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:35:23

And that's, you know, I'll be the biggest preacher on your your department should represent the community. What do I mean by that? You should have white people, black people, Asian people, Middle Eastern people, females, male, gay, straight, all those should be members of your department. Because a lot of those groups that I just mentioned, because I've experienced, are ostracized in your agency. Big time.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:44

I will tell you something. Somebody brought this up recently about Vice APD, and they somebody asked me about it. They're like, we don't see black officers. I said that the first time I started working. I would tell you something. Um, in the whole time I worked at Vice, I think I only saw four. Lance, Deshaun, uh, there's a guy now, Lamar, he's there. And uh that might be it. You know what I mean? And so that's not good. No, you know what I mean? And so um I think, you know, but an officer that just retired, he said this. And you know, back when I started, uh, there were very few Hispanic officers. Now there's more Hispanic officers than white.

unknown 2:36:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:36

You know what I mean? And uh and I think, well, too, Tuleri County, we're I don't know, 60% Hispanic, you know, so I get it, I understand it. Yeah, but race shouldn't play a factor, but you're right. There comes a point in time we do we need to represent the community. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_04 2:36:51

Funny quick story about me and Lance once. We get dispatched to a guy that has a gun in the in his apartment. So we're the only two there. And we both approach the apartment. I'm standing behind like this brick thing, and he's standing behind a bush. And Lance looks over to me and goes, Do you believe they sent the only black officer and the only gay officer to this call?

SPEAKER_03 2:37:08

This is bullshit.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:11

Typical Lance Brooks.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:13

Yeah. I actually, you know, I just talked to him. I've talked to him a few times in the house. He lives in Tennessee now. I'm trying to get him to come out and come around the show. Oh, he loved. I love Lance. In fact, you know, who doesn't love Lance? You know, Lance is good peeps. Um You went all the way into doctoral studies. What pushed you to pursue that level of education?

SPEAKER_04 2:37:39

So I got my bachelor's degree the last year I was in law enforcement. We were all going to Union Institute. I wanted to get our bachelor's degree. So I got that. And um after I left law enforcement, I'm like funk now. They're not they don't even exist. So, you know, I'm like, I want to get some more education. You know, nobody in my family has a master's degree, or my immediate family. And I'm like, I'm gonna get my master's degree. So I apply at Arizona State, get in. I flew through the master's program. I mean, people are hard thinking, you know, I don't want to get a master's degree is hard. If you do it in a topic you enjoy, it's easy. Yeah, I rarely opened a book because I had all the law enforcement experience. I had to open the book for references on my favors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I get my master's degree, and right before I'm gonna finish, I'm like, you know what? Screw it. I want to get my doctorate. I didn't tell anybody I applied. And I get I graduate from Arizona State online and I go to the college for graduation. And I'm sitting there at my graduation ceremony, it's taking forever. I'm playing on my phone. And I had applied for the doctoral program at Walden, and I get an email, and it says, Congratulations, you've been accepted into the doctoral program. I don't tell anybody. We have my graduation party at my house a couple weeks later, all my family's there. And I tell everybody, I'm not done yet. Yeah, I'm gonna get my, you know, I'm gonna start working on my PhD. And everybody thought I was crazy, and I still think I'm a little crazy because it's a lot of work. Um, but I wanna, I wanna get I want to be the best. I wanna get the most education I can.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:07

Well, I tell you something, man.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:08

If you get a doctor, that will really help my CV too.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:12

I'm saying, well, that I mean that right there, I mean, you know, when somebody is a doctor, I don't care what it is, uh psychology, medical, PhD, whatever it is, I I anything that you do it, even in education, that title just elevates you. Right. It really does. And um, you know, like on my email, when I email people, my email of education, right? And you know, I'm proud of that because guess what? They don't hand out a master's degree easy and they don't hand out a doctor's degree easy. And so for you to do that, God bless you. Um, I respect that. And um, you know, um what inspired your dissertation work on penal code 186.22 for the folks at home. That's criminal street gang activity and its impact on minority communities.

SPEAKER_04 2:40:08

The law is a racist law, it's 100% focused on minorities because gang members are minorities. Um, that doesn't make it fair. I mean, the statistics show that, you know, the white gangs are sure you'll see a 186.22 put on an Aryan Brotherhood member or something like that. N LR as well. Yeah, it's just it's not, you know, I'm not and I might be wrong. That's the whole point of the dissertation is to do a study to figure out what the statistics are. But at first glance, it appears that it's a law that's focused towards Hispanics, blacks, maybe some Asians, because Asian gangs aren't quite as prevalent, but yeah, they're there. And because you don't hear a lot about the the white gangs. Yeah. So that that that's my focus.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:53

Got it. No, and you know, I mean, me being a gang expert, you being a gang expert. I think the laws should be even more stringent on gangs, period. I don't care what color it is, I just think people have no concept of how truly evil some of these people are. If you can shoot up a house with 20 people in there and don't care who gets hit, I do not want you out here on the streets, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:41:24

So I'm not gonna disagree with that, but I'm gonna say this more study needs to be done on why people join gangs. And this is this is the some some my law enforcement friend says this is my softer side now. But I've gotten my education, I deal with these people. We need to do a better job of giving alternatives than joining a gang to the people that are that are out there.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:44

I would tell you this, you know this, and for the people at home, I would tell you this. In all my time in the gang unit, this is what you truly learn. Number one reason, protection. Yep. Number two reason, family, belonging, family. Number three, um, sometimes these people don't even have a choice. Right. It's like you either was an Arteno, I have to be a Nortagno, or you run into this, you're joining us, or we're gonna whip your ass every day. And so there comes a point, and then then you know, the byproducts of that are now power, drugs, money, girls, then there just becomes this, you know, it's like uh for the folks at home, we've all seen the gangsters walking around with the shorts on with the socks pulled up to the knees. Uh, when I tell people why they do that, people are shocked. You know why they do that? Because in jail, if you show any part of skin on your legs, that means you're looking for some love in jail. Gangsters think it just looks cool. That's not why that happens. Jail dictates what happens to the streets, and so on, and so on, and so on. And so what I tell people is um, I don't know, man. It's just I just seen the ravages of gangs and what it's done in it, and it's erased entire generations of people. That I think is sad. It is. And and um what conclusions have you drawn so far from your research?

SPEAKER_04 2:43:12

I'm not very far into it yet. Okay. I'm still the getting all the statistics.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:16

So let's what is a doctoral cost? What are you looking at?

SPEAKER_04 2:43:19

Yeah, I want to know. It's probably cost me about 50 grand. So I'm sure it ain't cheap. It's not cheap. So so I'm in the beginning stages. I kind of took a break because the the business got so busy. I have eight years to finish. So I'm definitely taking advantage of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So um still too new in it to give you any answers.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:37

Um how should public policy evolve to create a more just system?

SPEAKER_04 2:43:47

It needs to, I mean, I'm gonna go back to what I've been saying is you got to take politics out of policy.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:55

There's too many politics in policy. I'm a true believer, and I've seen it on my cases, that if you're a minority, you are not treated the same in the justice system as white people. I can have a white client with the same charges as a black client standing next to them. The white client will get a sweet plea deal. They're trying to send the black guy to prison. Yeah. And I'm not joking, that that's not I'm being an all-speed. In a way, and I can believe that. I believe that. But yet, you know, you're gonna hear, oh, we're not like, you know, that's not how it is. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 2:44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:44:22

So we you you just gotta take politics. The policy needs to be the policy, and it needs to be the same for everybody, no matter who you are.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:29

I agree with that. Um, how has education reshaped your approach to investigations?

SPEAKER_04 2:44:38

It's made it's made me more detailed in my investigations because you have to be very detailed when you're working on your master's thesis dissertation. Oh, yeah, oh yeah. And it gives you a different perspective. Um, again, you know, I get into a lot of debates with some friends, friendly spirited debates about, you know, crime and criminal justice and why people do the things they do. And it's let me understand and see the bigger picture of why things happened. Yeah. And and why crime is why do people commit crime? You know, why why do why society like this that enables this to happen?

SPEAKER_02 2:45:13

I would tell you something, and I think that there's something about guys like us, and I've had these conversations with people who think that they know what they're talking about, and I've had to tell people. In fact, I just had this conversation not too long ago. Nobody knew what I did. I'm I'm not walking around going, I'm a former cop. I don't tell people that. You know, if they watch the show, they know. But somebody sitting there spouting off all this stuff about law enforcement that's never been a cop, and I finally said, You do not know what you're talking about. And they were like, Well, I'm educated, I know what I'm talking about. And I said, And that even makes you dumber because you should know not to open your mouth about stuff that you don't know. And they're like, Well, what makes you an expert? I go, how about 25 years of being a cop and being as educated as you, asshole? And I think that that's we're getting into. It's like people just realize until you've been a cop, until you've seen it out here, it's easy to point fingers and you know, just want to vilify uh law enforcement. But damn, dude, it's like I would love to see people really know what this job is. And I think now with all the cop shows and stuff, people realize, you know, it's like I had to recently tell somebody this. Somebody asked me this, what's your book about? And I said, People I've shot, people I've fought, and people I've got, right? And that is in a nutshell. And I tell people, it's like, hey, I try to do this better than most. Um, did I fail at times? Yes, I did. Am I flawed? Every officer is, nobody's perfect out here, but we're all trying to do the best damn we can because I was born to do this. I think you were born to do what you do. I really believe that. And if you have a true passion for this, there's something about law enforcement and you're either drawn to it or you're not. And I we've all seen people try to turn into something that they're not. And I think for you, you were born to do this. I think I was born to do this, and it made us good at our jobs. And you know, now you're continuing to do what uh what you're doing, and you know, and I'm I'm trying to provide a service for our for for our former colleagues, you know. Um do you believe law enforcement training should require higher academic standards? We already covered that. Yes. Um do you believe the criminal justice system is fundamentally fair?

SPEAKER_04 2:47:49

No.

SPEAKER_02 2:47:50

All right, yeah. We talked about that. Yeah, yep. Nope. Do you believe the greatest need where do you think the greatest need for reform lies?

SPEAKER_04 2:48:02

There's a lot of areas that needs to be reformed. I think that I I know people, this is a controversial topic, but I think when it comes to rehabilitation of criminals, we think we're rehabilitating the criminals, we're not. I think prison makes a lot of people. I think it makes it worse. Um, you know, you see other countries where they send their criminals to what we would call like hotels on the beach, yeah. Um prisons, and and they're not having the recidivism recidivism rate that we have.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:37

Um, so I think there needs to be a better look into how we can fix people.

SPEAKER_00 2:48:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:42

And but a lot of that is mental health, too. There's got to be a whole revamping of the mental health. People don't get the mental health.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:50

Oh, I too. I think there's a lot of people out here on the street right now that need uh mental health care. I think they need psychotropic medication. A lot of them don't get it. Then what do they do? They self-medicate with illegal street drugs, and then it just keeps this just ugly toll bruth on the bridge thing that just keeps going around and around and around and around. Um how do human rights guide your decision making today? Seems like you're so I think you've you've become a blind big.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:23

Um, so I'm not a Republican anymore. We talked about how my grandpa used to call me a little Republican running around. I think that because of uh being gay and having troubles in my life, because of that, um, and understanding that people that are different are treated different. Um you have to protect people's rights. Everybody is human if you believe in God. God created all of us, um, no matter who you are. Um, so I think that a dedication to treating everybody equal, no matter who what color your skin is, what religion you are, what your beliefs are, who you sleep with, whatever. Um, human rights need to be involved in every step of the criminal justice process, in the political process, and everything. You know, they say that, you know, we're the freest country in the world, and and you know, everybody's equal in the United States. If you believe that, you are crazy. No, I yeah, I don't I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:15

Uh let me ask you this. Um, are you far left, middle? I'm more right?

SPEAKER_04 2:50:21

I would say I'm socially pretty far left. Okay. But like financially, crime and justice, probably more in the middle. Got it. Um I like George Bush.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:35

Okay. Junior, senior? What do you mean, junior? Junior. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:50:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:50:42

Um I'm not gonna take you down that page. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:50

We can talk about that later. Yeah, because I'm I'm far right. Right. All right. Um are there ethical lines you refuse to cross no matter the pressure?

SPEAKER_04 2:51:00

Yeah. I'm not gonna lie for a client. I'm not gonna make things up. Yeah. I'm not gonna go pressure a witness to say something that isn't true. I'm you know, I'm just not gonna do that. Uh you know what it's like. I'm not gonna bring my client's dope into the jail. And I've read so many books about their investigators bringing them in contraband to the jail. I make way too much money to risk that to bring you up something you shouldn't have.

SPEAKER_02 2:51:21

No, I would tell you something. I one of my last cases that I flat out said that. I go, I'm not gonna lie on these reports. I'm not going to um make stuff up because you want me to make stuff up. I go, I'm gonna take it to where the the evidence leads. You want to tell me your side of the story? I'm all for it. Right. All right, I'm I'm willing to listen. But I got three other people that are saying this, and you're saying this. Right. And I'm gonna tell you this. You know this. You get three people saying it versus one, who are they gonna believe? Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:51:56

Right. Um Well, and I think that that's why I have the reputation with what I do now is I'm very, you know, to the point. I submit reports, we give them to the DA, and it is what it is. Yeah, not that. It helps our client great. If it doesn't, that's what they told me. Yeah. So that's what's gonna go in there. That's what I found out.

SPEAKER_02 2:52:12

Yeah. I had a defense attorney one time said, uh, do not put that in. I told him what the guy said, and he said, do not put that in a report. And I had a real problem with that. I'm like, look, man.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:25

There's a ways about going if it's a statement that we don't like, we don't have to turn it over because we're not gonna use it.

SPEAKER_02 2:52:30

There's different rules for the defense to there is for the I just said this. It is what it is. And um have you ever walked away from a case based on principle alone?

SPEAKER_04 2:52:43

No.

SPEAKER_02 2:52:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:44

I've walked away from cases because of conflicts of personality with a client or they stopped paying us or stuff like that. But um, I haven't run into that situation. Not to say, you know, if my principles are are pushed, then yeah, I probably would walk away.

SPEAKER_02 2:53:00

I tell you something, I know I had a a client that I was dealing with, and you know, he he wanted to act like a hard ass. You know, he's like, You're gonna do this, you're gonna do that. And I was like, you know, I remember telling him, you know, I'm in I'm on this side of the glass, he's on, and I was like, hey, fuck you. What the what are you gonna do? And he was like, What? And I said, You heard me? I go, listen, dude. I said, you're not gonna pressure me or intimidate me in any way, shape, or form. I said, dude, I said, uh, I don't give a shit. And um, you know, he didn't listen. He wanted to represent him pro pur, and they ended up dropping 50 on him when I had him a pretty sweet deal at 25 to life. But hey, you know what? They win some, you lose some. After uh yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, you're right. After leaving law enforcement, you entered the world of baseball umpiring and rose to the college level. What did that new world give you emotionally that policing never could?

SPEAKER_04 2:53:54

Okay, so if you look at pictures of me as a little kid, I would have always would be wearing a San Francisco Giants hat. My true love in life is baseball. I love baseball. And when I was little, not only did I um draw the picture of me being a cop, but whenever we had like neighborhood baseball games or neighborhood football games, guess who I always volunteered to be the referee of the umpire? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so but being in law enforcement, you don't get a lot of free time on your hands to go do fun things. I mean, law enforcement's your life. It is. So I had a buddy who did a lot of baseball umpiring, and when I left Vice L PD, he's like, hey, we need umpires, come start. So I started at the high school level in Fresno, moved up to junior college, did a whole bunch of junior college games, have done a handful of Division II games. The Sports Association Fresno, which is the San Joaquin Valley Officials Association, covers all the high school sports. I moved up to being the baseball supervisor and then ending up being the football and baseball supervisor and then the president of the entire association. Wow. So I was dealing with the CIF, doing contracts, doing all that stuff. Um I left for two reasons. One, my business blew up out of control, and I was just, I couldn't take the time away. And if you think politics are bad in law enforcement, try getting into politics in high school sports.

SPEAKER_02 2:55:11

Dude. Crazy.

SPEAKER_04 2:55:12

It just made it unfun for me anymore. I I wouldn't, I'm gonna go back to being on the field this year, umpiring a few games here and there, but I don't want to be in charge.

SPEAKER_02 2:55:19

Hey, I would tell you something. You know what I learned being uh a YSO, and I was the YSO at Redwood? Dude, literally, I would have to go in the stands and tell parents you can't cuss out other kids in the stands over a football game involving high school kids. Um, then we had parents that would come out of the stands and want to uh accost the coaches because their kid didn't get uh the ball thrown to him. And I literally had to tell people we are not playing for uh blood here. This is not the World Series here, this is uh a high. School football game. It's supposed to be learning. But I will tell you something, people would go rabid over high school sports.

SPEAKER_01 2:56:08

I actually had to kick parents out of high school games and escort them out of the stadium because they're over there, motherfucking a high school kid in the stands. Right. Yep. I saw it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 2:56:20

And it would shock me that I would go, like, you realize you're on a high school campus. That kid actually has more of the right to be here because they're in high school than you. You are a 40-year-old man, and you're threatening to beat up a kid over a high school football game. And um, you later became president of the San Joaquin Valley Officials Association. What did leadership in sports teach you about life after policing?

SPEAKER_04 2:56:51

That's a good question because this is something I wanted to talk about. Um, when you're in law enforcement, that's your life. Yeah, you have to eat, sleep, live, breathe it. You don't get to do a lot of fun things.

SPEAKER_02 2:57:04

You don't, right? And you gotta watch where you go, who you hang out with.

SPEAKER_04 2:57:07

All of that. Um, ever since I left law enforcement, this is what I tell people that have lost their jobs in law enforcement, gotten out of law enforcement. There's so much more to life than law enforcement. Big time. Right. So I had the opportunity to do that, to do something I love, to be involved in baseball, which is my life. I mean, when baseball season starts, the Giants game is always on my TV at home. Yeah. Um and I got to do that and I got to use my experience as a cop because you're basically the cop out there on the field, right? And I got to be involved in that and teach new umpa. I, you know, I taught at camps, I I got involved in contracts, basically running a business. Um, but I had the opportunity to do these things because I had the time. You know? Yeah. Since I've left, I've gotten, I've traveled the world, the country. Um I've gotten my other love, which is running. Um, I just ran my first marathon last month. Good for you, bro. 500 miles this month, this year. So it's been a lot, but you have time to experience life.

SPEAKER_02 2:58:07

So what I like to tell you how many countries have you been to?

SPEAKER_04 2:58:10

Four.

SPEAKER_02 2:58:12

Which ones?

SPEAKER_04 2:58:12

Four. Mexico's I mean, we've I've been everywhere in Mexico. We go to Mexico like so. That's our favorite spot to go. But I've been to all almost all the islands in the Caribbean. I've been to Europe. Um the good thing too about my job is this takes me places too. I was in Alaska two weeks ago on a federal case. Yeah, that maybe you called me during the yeah. It was uh negative 22 degrees when I was there, it was cold. But you know, I've gotten to do all these things that I probably wouldn't have gotten to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:58:35

You have a time to do it if I was still in law enforcement.

SPEAKER_04 2:58:39

So I like to tell you know people that you're either losing their jobs or retiring. Yeah, law enforcement is honorable. Great, you've done a great career, but there are things you can do once you're done.

SPEAKER_02 2:58:48

I totally agree.

SPEAKER_04 2:58:49

So much more you can do.

SPEAKER_02 2:58:50

I tell you something, man. You know what? I'm living my best life right now, bro, and um I'm getting to do things. And like I believe it or not, this happened on a whim, and this is taking off, dude. And and I love this. I love doing what I'm doing. I love I'm highlighting your story. I think it needs to be told. I think you got a great story, man. You know, writing a book. I could have never done this in law enforcement, yeah, right? And so I'm getting to do things that I couldn't, that I've always wanted to do, and now there's nobody telling me if you do this, we're gonna write you up. And I think with law enforcement, it is, it just becomes it's a lifestyle. And if you don't live it properly, you're gonna get zapped.

SPEAKER_04 2:59:32

Um I think you're gonna, you know, and I'm not talking talking bad because again, we need people to be in law enforcement as an honorable profession, but I think you miss out a lot on life.

SPEAKER_02 2:59:41

You do.

SPEAKER_04 2:59:41

I really do.

SPEAKER_02 2:59:42

I do, I do too. Um magazine featured you. What did that representation mean for you personally?

SPEAKER_04 2:59:50

For those of you that don't know, Out Magazine is a gay sports um magazine that comes out. And when I got promoted to the president of the officials association, they wanted to focus on all the support I had from my fellow officials and and the associations and the CIF in becoming one of the few openly gay sporting officials. Because again, sports is a lot like law enforcement. Yeah, very macho. How many out baseball players do you see, or football players do you see? And you come out, they have issues, yeah, right. So um they did an article on that. It was it was very special to me. It was about my wedding night um and how many of my fellow officials were at the wedding and supporting me and my husband, and it it was very special to me.

SPEAKER_02 3:00:31

Yeah, good for you, man. And you know what, bro? Um I I'd like I like to see it. You know what I mean? It's like, hey, we're we're we're at a point in time where I think society now, I mean, when we were growing up, I mean, you know, being gay during that time, that had to, that had to be uh, I guess what I want to be the word stifling, you know, the the term in the closet. Right. That was a big deal. Uh it was a big deal. And so I think now it's become more socially accepted where, hey, you know what? Uh and again, it's like, I'm never gonna judge anybody by their lifestyle. It's like, hey, you always were nice to me. I was nice to you. We're friends, we respect each other. And I think that we've gotten to a point to where I think it's become a little bit more socially acceptable.

SPEAKER_04 3:01:15

Hope before I die, it comes to the point where that's not even an issue. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't have to be. I shouldn't have to, you know, it's just that's dormable.

SPEAKER_02 3:01:23

Oh, I get it. You know what I mean? Um running has become a major part of your life. 36 half marathons, impressive. And your first full marathon this year. What role does running play in your mental health?

SPEAKER_04 3:01:38

It's my stress relief.

SPEAKER_02 3:01:39

Yeah. I can see that.

SPEAKER_04 3:01:40

I do my best thinking. Um, I have the most energy after I go for a run. My parents um did triathlons for a long time. Um, they both have really bad health. Um, so they had to stop doing that. So I kind of thought, well, I'm not gonna do triathlons because I hate to bike ride and I don't swim, but I'll start running. And my mom and dad, when I was growing up, used to do all the little local 5K runs and all that. So I started doing, I started running in about 2016, was when I really started getting serious. And that's just it's my stress relief, it's my my freedom. You know, people say I'm crazy, I'm up at five in the morning running in my neighborhood when it's 30 degrees. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm you know, I keep track of all I have a whole wall in my office at home with all my medals for my run, and my husband hates it because he's like, that's the wall of Brian right there. And I tell him I want to be buried with all those around my neck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but it's just, you know, less than one percent of the world population has finished a marathon. I'm now less than I'm in that less than one percent. And that, you know, I got emotional when I finished it. Oh yeah, dude, it was an accomplishment. How fast you ran a marathon? Four hours and eighteen minutes. That was not my goal. It was four hours was my goal, but I hit the wall at mile 20, and it the last six miles were tough.

SPEAKER_02 3:02:48

Yeah, but dude, I mean, honestly, dude, 26 miles and four four hours, that's still pretty legit. Yep. Yeah, yep. How did stepping away from law enforcement allow you to reclaim parts of your life you didn't realize you'd lost?

SPEAKER_04 3:03:07

I could be me and not have to worry about looking over my shoulder.

SPEAKER_02 3:03:10

Yeah.

unknown 3:03:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:03:11

That's the biggest thing. I could be me.

SPEAKER_02 3:03:13

Yeah, because that's true. In law enforcement, you're always like honestly.

SPEAKER_04 3:03:18

I'm not just saying that because I'm gay. I could be me. Yeah. I could be me in general.

SPEAKER_02 3:03:22

Yeah. No, and I can tell you this the whole time being a cop, you know this. It's not if you're gonna get in trouble, it's just when. Um, I think um, you know, going back real fast, I think a lot of leadership in law enforcement has become truly toxic. Do you do you believe that? I believe that. Okay. You have to worry more about your organization coming after you or administration coming after you than you do the crooks. Yep. And and um that is sad to say. Right. And you know this, you can do everything right, you can still get written up, you can still be sued, you can still be depositioned, you can still go through all the stuff, even if you've done everything right. Right.

SPEAKER_04 3:04:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 3:04:09

And that is this dark cloud over law enforcement. And I think it runs a lot of people out of the business. You know, it does. It does. It does. A lot of people are like, I don't want to put up with this bullshit anymore. I'm out.

SPEAKER_04 3:04:23

And um But that's why people need to prepare themselves beforehand. Yeah, for life after all that. Yeah, life after that. There is a life after law enforcement, but you need to be prepared for that and have a plan.

SPEAKER_00 3:04:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:04:36

Always have a plan. Even if you think you're gonna do your 30 years, have that plan that what if?

SPEAKER_02 3:04:40

Uh so you know what you're gonna do. I tell you, I got my bachelor's, I didn't know I was gonna go into education, but I got my bachelor's in 09 because I was like, hey, Jay, you're almost 10 years away from law enforcement. I mean, we're retiring. Be thinking forward thinking. There's gotta be something after this, and at least go get that one sheepskin. Yep. Um do investigators experience PTSD at levels similar to police officers.

SPEAKER_04 3:05:10

I'm gonna say no, it's different.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:12

It is.

SPEAKER_04 3:05:13

I'm not downplaying it because there is, I mean Yeah. But you get to see a lot of times you see a lot of crazy stuff, and you have to you get to hear what really happened from people and have to keep that inside because you can't tell anybody what they told you, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:05:27

And yeah, cops done all of it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 3:05:30

You know, and I get everything in a case. So I mean, how many autopsy pick? I've handled over a hundred murder cases as a defense investigator. I've seen too many dead bodies at this point. Yeah. Too many. I mean, I again I'm cold to it. Maybe that's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:42

But you got to do what you got to do with the for your own mental well-being.

SPEAKER_04 3:05:47

That's why I go run 26 miles.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:49

Yeah. How do you protect your family or your husband from the emotional weight of the cases you work?

SPEAKER_04 3:05:59

I don't show emotions. Uh if if my husband and I fight, it's because I don't show emotions. Yeah. Um, and he gets mad that I don't talk about work, but at the same time, I don't want to hear his gruesome ER story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. I'm just like, you don't need to, it's it's terrible stuff. Let's let's talk about something else besides. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 3:06:17

And I've said this before. Um it's hard enough on us the first time. It's very hard when you have to relive it and just talk about it over. And, you know, uh there comes a point in time where I don't want to talk about the dead baby. I don't want to talk about the sexual assault victim. Uh, because it is, it's toxic. Um, it it is poison to your brain. And um, you know, there just comes a point in time we all have our own coping mechanisms in place, and you got to do what you got to do for you, brother. Um fact, here it is. What coping mechanisms have carried you through the darkest moments?

SPEAKER_04 3:06:56

Running and baseball. I'll just go bury myself in a baseball game. I'll go run, or or you know, I again I'm I really keep my emotions to myself, which is probably not the healthiest thing in the world. Yeah. But I rarely break down if I do it by myself.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:11

Well, yeah, and but you're right. There's just a time you have to turn off your brain from a case, law enforcement, whatever it is, you gotta just step away from that stuff for a while. Um, you know, I dude, you know, I spent a lot of years, man, downtown, right? You know, uh drinking beer and you know, uh hooting and hollering. And but I have a hard and fast rule. Nothing good happens after 10. Nope. And I will tell you something. And I will tell you something, bro. It's protected me a thousand and one times, man. And dude, I mean, you know, E, who I love, you know, something would happen, and they would call me and hey, were you here? Did you see what happened?

SPEAKER_03 3:07:53

No, I was gone.

SPEAKER_02 3:07:54

And they would be like, uh, well, we saw you on the video. I go, did you see what time I left? And they're like, uh, what time did you leave? I go, 9 45. How do you know that? I always leave at 9 45. And I'm like, and it protected me because guess what? If you go too hard out there sooner or later, it's gonna you're gonna get zapped.

SPEAKER_04 3:08:16

No, I I'm lucky. I'm I have some close friends who are alcoholics because that's how they deal with their stress and stuff like that. And I just I don't ever want to be that. Yeah. So I taste something, you know what? I like to drink, but I don't like to be drunk. So that's yeah, I'm the same.

SPEAKER_02 3:08:31

You know what? Me and my wife will go downtown, we'll have a few beers or whatever with dinner and stuff or whatever. But yeah, my days of you know, laying out, you know, all hung over and we're too old for that show. Yeah, yeah. And they dude, in two weeks, I'm gonna be 55, bro. So yeah, you know, life does change. Um, has your view of humanity changed because of everything you've seen?

SPEAKER_04 3:08:52

Oh, yeah. I mean, we talked about it kind of near the beginning. All of my experience when I became a cop and everything now. I mean, I'm very, very negative. I don't have any hope in humanity. I really don't. I mean, there's so many bad things that people do, and not just criminally, just in general, the way humanity treats each other. It's just, you know, we all have hope, but I'm just so negative and just so pessimistic about everything.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:22

You know what my you know what my wife recently told me? She goes, you know, Jay, you're so judgmental. And I think it was all those years of being a cop. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:09:33

Judge everybody.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:34

Yeah, because you know, it's like I'll see some guy and I'll be like, there's a gangster, right? There's a tweaker, right? And you know, so my wife one day, she's like, Man, dude, she's like, You're you're judgmental, Jay. And I'm like, it's the cop in me, and I can't turn it off. Right. And that's that's probably one of the byproducts of doing the job for as long as we did.

SPEAKER_04 3:09:56

I haven't been a cop for 16 years, and when we go out, I still sit with my back to the wall. Oh, big time. You'll always be that way. Judge everybody. Uh, my husband tells me I still drive like I'm driving a patrol car. Yeah, I guess, and we have the fights about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:10:09

Um, but that you just can't take that out of you. You can't. And you know what? And I mean, I try to treat people, I try to show people love when I can. I really do, man. But um, yeah, the job did the same for me. It did, it made me cynical in a lot of ways. Um, we do, we get to see what most people don't. Right. There's a price that you got to pay to do this job. We get to see what others don't, but then there's a byproduct of that, which is a lot of the stuff I wish I wouldn't have in my brain, which I know you feel the same. And uh all you can do is cope with it the best you can. Um, of all your awards, LAPD commendations, explorer advisor of the year, the Mad California Hero Award, which one touched you the most personally?

SPEAKER_04 3:10:57

Probably the DUI um award. No, no, the Explorer Advisor. Yeah, yep, definitely the Explorer Advisor. Again, I've kept in contact with so many of those kids. Yeah. I mean, they're not kids anymore, they're in their mid-30s. So, you know, being an explorer and that and that, I mean, that's what shaped me going into law enforcement, you know, not the picture I drew when I was in second grade, but being part of the Fresno County Sheriff's Department when I was a teenager and you know, riding along with the deputies, learning from them, and then going into law enforcement. Obviously, I was gonna get back in the same way and and be a part of that unit and to be voted on that two years in a row by the kids, a lot of those kids, again, that I still talk to on a regular basis, you know, that that's special to me.

SPEAKER_02 3:11:41

Yeah. As it should be. Yeah. Um, how do you define success now compared to the beginning of your career?

SPEAKER_04 3:11:52

So success for me now is is it's not a case that I work or anything. It's the reputation I have, it's the the hard work that we put into my business. I mean, I'm more I created a company that, you know, we're on the way to making I'm not gonna say the number, but a lot of money every year. Yeah, good. And it's not a great the money's great, but I'm not gonna sit here and say it's about the money. Because I do I do I do love what I do. But I've created something that helps people. Yeah. May not get them out of the situations therein, but at least it's helped a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 3:12:23

Also, too, man, you should get paid whatever you want because um number one, I know you do a good job, that's here or there. There's an emotional toll on you, bro. And and then not everybody is made to do what you do. And I'll tell you this, I'm not made to do what you do. And, you know, and I don't have a problem saying that, right? And um and I think that you do what you do, and I think you do it at a very high level. Um, so you know, God bless you, and I hope you make all the money you want because I think you deserve it. Uh, because n uh a lot of people can say that they can do what you do, but dude, very few you breathe rare air, bro. Yep. You know. Um how do you want to be remembered in this profession?

SPEAKER_04 3:13:15

As someone who worked hard and fought for people's rights and was dedicated to what he did.

SPEAKER_02 3:13:22

That's that's okay, that's honorable. All right. Where do you see criminal investigations heading in the next decade? Because I think with DNA and technology.

SPEAKER_04 3:13:35

Well, AI is gonna screw it all up. I'm seeing some of these agencies that are using AI to write reports. The defense community loves that because we're gonna rip that apart. Yeah, because you didn't write that you didn't write it. Yeah, that's just a bad idea. Um I mean the type the technological technology is getting crazy. People are going to get caught doing crimes because there's cameras everywhere. I will tell you.

SPEAKER_02 3:13:59

With a stonebreaker, you know, did you watch his episode? That was a good episode. Flock safety, dude. That's gonna be a they are cracking, they are cracking amber alerts in eight or he said 10 to 18 minutes. Right. Dude, back in the day, you'd have been lucky to get that in days. Right. Now they're doing it in minutes, months, and yes, yeah, and there's more cameras than what you think there are. And I don't know if a lot of people picked up, but he's talking about these drones that fly around. They realize when their battery is gonna go dead, land on their own, switch their batteries, and go right back up. Dude, that's I mean, it's here's on the right side of my brain, it's big brother, right?

SPEAKER_04 3:14:46

We're being watched at all times, but it's also safety because I think you know what technology I hate, and this is big in Fresno. I was dispatched because ShotSpotter picked up Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have a very good friend who's one of the higher ups in ShotSpotter, and I'm always texting him, cussing at him, saying my client was caught. The Fresno BD report started, you know, we were dispatched to a shot spotter call.

SPEAKER_02 3:15:10

And for the folks at home, ShotSpotter is this thing that it can pick up shots and it can almost see tell you where it happened in the city. Yep, almost exactly where it's at. And so, uh, but I can tell you this, man, if it's gonna get guns and people out there shooting up houses or killing people, I'm all for it. But you're right. I think we're watched more than what we think. Yeah. And um how has technology changing defense investigations? Is it doing it for the better or is it doing it for the worse? What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 3:15:44

It I think there's two parts to it. I think it's making it harder to defend people because cell phones catch them, you know. No, it's video. Video doesn't lie. But a lot of times, you know, on sex cases or stuff like that, when you or any kind of case where you're being accused of something and then you get the cell phone download and it shows that you weren't even there, or wait a minute, those messages were not sent by you. Stuff like this. There's stuff that helps.

SPEAKER_00 3:16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:16:08

But there's a lot of stuff that's making it hard.

SPEAKER_02 3:16:10

Yeah. Yeah. What worries you most about the future of policing?

SPEAKER_04 3:16:17

They're gonna take too much of the person out of it and technology's gonna take over. I agree. And you're not gonna have decision making, you're gonna have just an automated whatever.

SPEAKER_02 3:16:26

I agree. I agree. I would tell you something, right about the time I was retiring, one of the bosses who I very much respected, pulled me to the side one day and he said this to me. He said, Jay, you are one of the last of the Mohegans. He goes, sadly to say, he goes, We don't need your type of law enforcement anymore. He goes, I think you're doing the right thing, I think you're getting out at the right time. He goes, Because in this near future, cops like you are not going to last. He goes, you were great. He goes, I loved it. When I sent you after somebody, you went and got them by any means necessary. He goes, I never had to worry about you. You could kick ass, take names, do all that shit. He goes, but that's not the way that this business is going now. And that was hard to hear, true. But there's truth.

SPEAKER_01 3:17:20

I don't know if you feel really old, too.

SPEAKER_02 3:17:21

Yeah, it did, it did, you know. Well, think about this. I got hired with 22 guys, and two of us made it to retirement. That's a horrible statistic. Um what gives you hope?

SPEAKER_04 3:17:38

In general?

SPEAKER_02 3:17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:17:41

That there's good in people, and that ultimately the good in people will make our world a better place, and that we can get past the current div decisiveness of you know, human. I'm not gonna just say it's our country, because it's not just our country, it's the world. It is the world, yeah. It's it's hope that people can respect each other. Other, no matter what their beliefs are, who they are, what color their skin is. I just want to live in a world where, you know, you're Jason McWilliams, I'm Brian Pinto, and that's all that's important. Yeah. Doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:18:13

I agree, man. I always want to see the best in people. And it's hard for guys like us. It really is. Because we got we get to we got to see I hate to use this analogy, but we got to see the puppet show and we got to see the strings, right? And there's a price to pay that because we did. We got to see the worst of the worst.

SPEAKER_04 3:18:37

We are, but I I believe every person has something good inside them too. I do too. No matter what they do. I think there's something better than everybody.

SPEAKER_02 3:18:43

I do too. Um what advice would you give to a young person entering law enforcement today?

SPEAKER_04 3:18:52

Don't do it.

unknown 3:18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:18:53

I know that's not the popular answer for you law enforcement fans, but don't do it. No, I think it's not worth it. It's not it's different now.

SPEAKER_02 3:19:01

It's I think it's gonna I think it's gonna become a transient profession because here's the problem. A 21-year-old kid today has got to do a 36-year career to make it to retirement. They're not gonna make it. I think uh too many people are gonna get injured or they're gonna get burned out. And I think uh you're gonna see people come in five years, 10 years, and then they're gonna move on.

SPEAKER_04 3:19:25

Yep. And um and the new generation, it's not a career to them anymore. It's not a calling, it's a job.

SPEAKER_02 3:19:31

And that's well, and dude, perfectly said. When we came on, it was a calling. And it was imprinted on my heart, it was imprinted on your heart, and there's something that pulls us to this career. I don't see that with this new generation.

SPEAKER_04 3:19:46

If they walk in and they think I'm gonna be a homicide detective in a year, I'm gonna do this. No, yeah, you need to put your time in.

SPEAKER_02 3:19:52

No, I agree. Um What advice would you give to someone who wants to follow your path into defense investigations?

SPEAKER_04 3:20:01

So I'm gonna contradict myself for a minute. The best people that do my line of work worked in law enforcement.

SPEAKER_00 3:20:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:20:08

Right. So it would be hard. I do have one employee who's never worked law enforcement. She does have her um degree in criminal justice. Yeah. Um, and she's brilliant and she knows how to talk to people and she's good. But I think you have to have some kind of at the minimum criminal justice education.

SPEAKER_00 3:20:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:20:26

And uh some kind of experience of talking to people, um, writing reports, stuff like that. I mean, there's nothing that will top the law enforcement experience, yeah, unfortunately. Um, so many of the defense investigators out there are archaic.

SPEAKER_00 3:20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:20:42

You know, there's not a lot of young, there's not a big young generation of defense investigators coming in. I'm trying to create that with the employees I'm hiring so we can't. Yeah, you're getting younger kids. You get younger. I say kids, they're in their 30s, but their kids do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um get your education, you know, if you have law enforcement experience, uh, be able to have look at things with an open mind. And you gotta be a hard worker.

SPEAKER_00 3:21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:21:04

Because, you know, you're handed a case, but you're not, I mean, you're giving deadlines to a point like we have a trial in six months, but there's nobody there over your shoulder saying you have to get this done today. You have to be dedicated, you have to be able to manage your schedule and get things done when there's nobody telling you it has to be done.

SPEAKER_02 3:21:19

Yeah, I would take this. Um, you know, man, I mean, the few cases you gave me, and I did some stuff with Julian and and you know, some uh defense attorneys here in town, you're right. Hey, man, there was days, man, I'm missing out on stuff because I'm at home typing out this crap and watching videos and listening to, you know, uh interviews and stuff. And you're right, nobody's gonna do it for you. You gotta you gotta do it. And if you take on the case, at least have the wherewithal to give it the best, the best that you got to give. Um what mistakes should people that are going into your business avoid at all costs?

SPEAKER_04 3:22:00

Not getting an education and not having the ability to look at things big picture-wise and understanding that people make mistakes, that there's potentially a reason for what they do. And you have to be able to understand that and accept that when you're helping that person.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:19

I don't know about you, but I also saw this. I saw a lot of the attorneys, a lot, I think saying even some of the vest believe everything they're told. And I would be like, and I would be like, listen, dude, especially career criminals have made a life out of manipulating people. And I used to tell these people just because he told it to you doesn't make it true. And every time I would start digging, uh, it would all come out that they lied and it's bullshit. And it's it's tough because especially when you're trying to help.

SPEAKER_04 3:22:51

Well, I think it comes to being able to talk to people and creating that relationship with your client. And I think I'm I've gotten really good at that as I create a relationship with them to where I can say, look, that's bullshit. Yeah, I'm here to help you. I don't care what it is. Just tell me what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I and I wasn't like that at first. I mean, and I'm not saying I believed everything they said, but I was more direct on that's shut up, you're lying. But you have to develop a relationship. You know, there's a a way to it get somebody to admit they're lying without confronting them about it.

SPEAKER_02 3:23:22

Correct. Um what traits will sustain someone for a lifetime in your profession?

SPEAKER_04 3:23:31

Being a hard worker.

unknown 3:23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:23:33

Being dedicated to what you do. Yeah. Um, getting an education, continuing your education. Yeah. Neither one of us knows everything. I learned something new on a case every day. I agree. Um, and and don't be afraid to educate yourself on the other side. Yeah. You know, what's the DA thinking? What's the police? Why why did the police do this? Well, this is why they did this. Yeah. Understand everything.

SPEAKER_02 3:23:56

Yeah. I think uh yeah, continuing education has got to be just a huge thing. I think even once in law, I mean, we've often brought this up about law enforcement. I think our continuing education, law enforcement, is bullshit. Those uh uh continue are what it was, uh perishable skills. It was a joke. We you I didn't learn anything about it. You gotta do way more. I think cities need to be get very active going, all right, we're gonna send everybody to an interview and interrogation, DUI school, 11550 school, uh, you know, defensive tactics, whatever it is we're gonna do, let's go all in and let's get these people as trained as possible. Is it gonna cost money? Yes. Are people gonna be missing work out here in patrol? Yes. But let's do what we can to make these people as well rounded as possible. Um if you could sit down with your 22-year-old self, what would you want him to know?

SPEAKER_04 3:24:56

I could write a book about that.

SPEAKER_02 3:24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:24:58

Um understanding back then my whole life was I want to be a cop.

SPEAKER_00 3:25:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:25:05

Um, I would have told him, look, that's great, great decision, but there's other things you could have done.

SPEAKER_00 3:25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:25:10

Right? And I don't regret being in law enforcement because it's got me where I'm at now. I, you know, everything comes from being in law enforcement. But I would um tell him to get an education earlier instead of later in life, um keep learning, and be a little bit better prepared of the social ramifications of being who you are and going into the field you're being in.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:38

Yeah. No, I can see that. I can see that. After everything you've been through, what has this career taught you about life?

SPEAKER_04 3:25:49

That you that everything happens for a reason. That's the number one. And the two people that tell me that the most are my two mentors that I have, and that was Melina Benninghoff, who again recently passed, and that's hard for me, and Colleen Mestis.

SPEAKER_02 3:26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:26:02

Everything happens for a reason. I agree. Right? And you're here in this position right now because stuff happens. Sometimes it's not good stuff that happened, but you're here for a reason, and everything happens for a reason, and you can get through anything. Don't let anything hold you back or knock you down.

SPEAKER_01 3:26:19

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 3:26:19

You can overcome everything.

SPEAKER_02 3:26:21

Yeah. I agree. What did or what has this whole thing? What does it cost you? The whole like like I mean, not money-wise, but what does it cost you like emotional?

SPEAKER_04 3:26:42

I mean, we we've talked about some of the things that's changed my view of the world.

SPEAKER_00 3:26:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:26:46

Um it's taught me that uh sometimes you can't be who you are.

SPEAKER_00 3:26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:26:53

Um it it's taught me that maybe there's too many expectations of living a certain way uh that some people think that that's how everybody should be. Um it's taught me what hard work can get you.

SPEAKER_02 3:27:11

Yeah. I agree. I agree. And finally, what message do you want to leave with the audience today?

SPEAKER_04 3:27:24

That you know, uh a lot of you that watch the show, former law enforcement, people that are related to law enforcement, it's an amazing profession. There's amazing people in it. But understand what it does to people and be compassionate to what it does to people. Um, understand that just because somebody's accused of something doesn't mean they did it, or it doesn't make them a bad person. It doesn't mean they can't overcome that. And just be a good person. Treat people with respect no matter who they are, respect people. Um, and just because somebody who does criminal defense work doesn't mean they're on the dark side. Yeah, it means you're fighting for people's rights. You're being that team member to protect somebody when they're accused of something.

SPEAKER_02 3:28:10

I get it. Well, brother, I got you a copy of my book. Merry Christmas. Thank you. I can't wait to read it. Read it, and then I would uh I would be interested in your thoughts. For sure. For sure. Um Well, uh we're gonna wrap up. I just want to let you know, um, I've always respected you. I I've always liked you. Um we've always gotten along. And and you know, we went to YSO school together. Um, I remember everything that's happened to you. Um, I remember I didn't like it then, I don't like it now. Um I also think that um I'm happy and I think you're where you you should be, bro. And uh keep doing what you're doing. Um and you know, I love the fact that you're even willing to come on the show. Uh, there's a lot of people I've reached out to that, you know, some some are not comfortable doing this. So, but I love the fact I hit you up and you're like, let's do it, man.

SPEAKER_04 3:29:03

Right and uh And I'm thank you for our friend, you know, you've always been a friend to me, even in the years I was gone when we run into each other, you know. We've kept in contact, you know. Yeah, I I appreciate that. And there's a lot more of those people that are around, they just you know don't advertise it as much for political reasons, probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, the the stories I could tell about when we were at YSN School about that today?

SPEAKER_02 3:29:32

Well, uh folks. Um next week uh I'll be having another guest. Uh I just want to leave you guys uh with this. A badge is not a shield from life storms, but a promise to stand in the storm for others. So uh continue to watch, and this is another episode of Street Your Strategy. This is your boy J Mac. Good luck, God bless, and godspeed. Thank you.