Beyond War, Beyond the Badge | Street to Strategy #15 - Karim Elbisi

Hi, I’m Jay McWilliams – a 25-year law enforcement veteran, U.S. Navy veteran, educator, and master storyteller.

On Street to Strategy, I dive deep into conversations with former law enforcement officers, sharing raw experiences, life lessons, and the strategies that helped us transition from the streets to new paths in life.

With a background in education and motivation, I bring not just stories – but powerful insights that can inspire, educate, and connect with anyone navigating change or seeking purpose.

I’m highly educated, highly motivated, and I believe my story – and the stories of those I speak with – will resonate with many.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Okay, folks, we are back. This is episode 15 of Street to Strategy. Uh, make sure you hit that like button and make sure you hit that subscribe button. It's free. I'm not asking you for no money. Uh, just hit that button for me, and I'd highly appreciate it. Okay, let's introduce today's guest. Some lives don't follow a clean, predictable path. They move forward in hard chapters shaped by duty, sacrifice, and moments that leave permanent marks. Today's conversation is not about legends or exaggerations. It's about reality. It's about a man whose life was defined not by where he came from, but how he chose to survive. We are honored to introduce a Vietnam veteran, someone who answered the call during one of the most complex and divisive chapters in our nation's history. He served in a war, fought far from home, in unforgiving heat and uncertainty, carrying responsibilities few truly understand. Like many who wore the uniform in that era, he returned without parades or applause, bearing experiences that stayed with him long after the fighting ended. His service was marked not only by courage under fire, but by quiet resilience, loyalty to those beside him, and a lifelong commitment to moving forward despite the weight of memory. Our guests stepped into law enforcement, carrying the weight of responsibility early, committing himself fully to the badge, the mission, and the people he swore to protect. For 13 years, he lived the life of a cop before the job, during the grind, and in the quiet moments most people never see. He experienced the brotherhood, the pressure, the victories, and the cost that came with answering the call day after day. But this story doesn't stop at the end of a shift or the close of a case. An on-duty injury changed everything, cutting a career short and forcing a medical retirement no one ever plans for. What happens when the uniform comes off before you're ready? When the job you built your identity around is suddenly gone? And how do you find purpose, faith, and meaning on the other side of that loss? Today we talk honestly about service, sacrifice, and the life that exists after sirens fade. This is a conversation about resilience, brotherhood, continuing forward when the plan falls apart. So grab a seat, settle in, and join us for a real, unfiltered discussion because stories like this matter and the lessons don't end when the career does. Today, let's introduce my guest, Carrie O'Bisi. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Thank you, Jay.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

I appreciate that. And thank you for that introduction. That's a lot. That is a lot, dude.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

You've been you've been around. Uh where were you born and raised, brother? I was born in Illinois, raised between all up and down the East Coast. Okay. Uh I was an army brat. Oh wow. Yeah, okay. My pop was uh his story is uh longer than we have time to tell. So he came from, he was Egyptian and escaped Egypt with my mother, my brother, and my sister. Um, my mother was from Missouri. They met while he was doing graduate studies at the University of Illinois. Oh, wow. And when they escaped and came back, he was the dean of sciences there at the University of Illinois, and that's where I was born. And then shortly after that, the army snatched him up because they helped him escape Egypt that was under communist rule. And uh I we went to an army um Natick, Massachusetts. There's U.S. Army Natick Laboratories there, and he was the head of that. Impressive. Yeah, most impressive. Very impressive guy. He came from one of two surviving children out of 14. Um due to feast. I mean feast, due to famine. Yeah, yeah, just the opposite. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, due to famine and disease and war. Um, he and his sister were the only survivors out of 14 kids, and um lived in a in a little village called El Bagur, Egypt. And he told me once, he said I was walking down the railroad tracks one night as a teenager and had a vision. And he said he envisioned the United States having his dream. Um, he was a scientist, so he had a real scientific uh way of approaching things. Not quite and to become a cowboy from that was looking forward to.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Well, you know what though? Honestly, it's like, you know, uh your dad's story, that is the American dream. It is come here, uh, become highly educated, and I'm sure very successful. Um, were you drafted or did you volunteer?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

No, uh, as it was, uh, I I was kind of uh out of control, kind of conjuvenal. Um, I preferred the wrong side of the tracks as opposed to the right side. A lot better friends over there. They were uh we got into a lot of trouble. Not really. We didn't, I guess my blessing was that I never got caught. Yeah. I did a lot of illegal things, but never got caught. Yeah. So it just gave me more life experience to draw upon. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Uh were you were now did you volunteer or did you draft?

SPEAKER_00 6:11

I volunteered. Volunteered. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

When in 18 years old?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

I was 17 when I volunteered, and my I had to be emancipated. Okay. And uh they signed me over to Uncle Sam. Wow and when I went into boot camp, I was 17. I turned 18 in boot camp. Was the war already going? Yes. Okay. Yeah. That was in night. It was actually ending. It was winding down. And um What year was that? 74. Okay. 74, it ended in 75. Got it. Um, I was assigned to, I made it through boot camp. And when I went in, they had these two-year deals where if you enlist at and get a two-year deal, stint, you could choose either your MOS or your duty station. And I wanted to drive tanks. And because one, I knew there wasn't a lot of room for tanks in the jungle. And two, um I I chose Stuttgart Germany, and that's all they did in Stuttgart, Germany was tanks.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Well, at the end of basic training, they hang up your assignments and where you're headed. Yeah. And I see 11 B10. And my drill sergeant's laughing his ass off. And I'm like, what's so funny? And our drill sergeant was this seven-foot black dude that stayed up all night just to get his eyes red enough to look you in the eye and scream at you. But uh he said, dude, you're you're not going to be driving any tanks. I go, well, what is 11 V10? And that's when he told me it was light weapons combat infantry. And you're headed down to the what we call Tiger Island in uh Fort Polk, Louisiana. Okay. That's where they did all their jungle training. All right. And uh off I went to become a ground pounder. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

You know what, man? You know, I was gonna say, I mean, you know, I was in later on, but I was in the Navy. But I will tell you this anybody who serves has my respect because it's a sacrifice. It's not easy. Um, what do you remember most vividly about the day you first arrived in Vietnam?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Um that we were just on a mission. It was just gonna be a short go-in, do the perimeter thing. They were gonna uh withdraw troops, and it was a lot like uh Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

When they panicked and withdrew everybody out of Afghanistan. And uh not only believe it or not, it wasn't as effed up as Afghanistan was. Um but they did a lot of a lot of bad deals, political deals, and next thing you know, everybody had to get out of there and they had to get out of there in a hurry. So our mission, um our battalion's mission was to secure the perimeter. Got it. Period. And I didn't get hurt there at all. And we we saw I I didn't see what they called the shit. Yeah, yeah. Like a lot of them guys coming out of the jungle had the thousand yard stare. They had they had been in the shit. And I just thanked God that um I didn't have to go to a fire base and and and fight the guys coming down the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah, you know what? I mean, you know, I was born in 71. So, you know, I mean, yeah, I was our I was a little boy when all that was going on, but it just it's sad because I just think that a lot of our veterans from that time were um forgotten about and overlooked and mistreated, and um, you know, anybody that mistreats veterans or anybody in law enforcement truly pisses me off. Yeah. Um, how did your experience in Vietnam change the way you saw the world or yourself after you came home?

SPEAKER_00 10:16

When I came home, um well, I'll go back just a sec. We uh when I got when we got back to Fort Polk, Louisiana, I actually got hurt bad in training. Oh wow. And um I tore, I I we were going across I was going across some parallel ropes, and I had a full pack on like about a 65-pound pack, and uh, I had the uh the saw, they called it, oh yeah with me. And uh large weapon. Large weapon, and I got top heavy and was going back and forth, and it was about a 20-foot fall into like kind of like a creek bed, some rocks and stuff. And I held on as long as I could until I ripped every nerve in my arm and my wrist. Oh wow, just tore them in half. So, I mean, my I came out, my arm was dead, and um, they didn't have any surgery to fix it, but I kept telling them I'm I don't want to go anywhere. I'm a lifer. I'm I'm gonna be in the army the rest of my life. I love it. Wow, I was gung-ho, I was totally brainwashed. Uh yeah, that was a lean green killing machine. How many years did you do in the army? Uh just a two, just a two. Quite the two, actually. It was I was about a month from my set end of my second year, and I took what was called a medical board because they wanted to just boot me to the curb and give me a severance pay. And I was like, I wasn't like this when I came in this man's army, and yeah, I'm not gonna be like this going out without a thanks. You know, it was bad enough we had to change into our civvies coming into the airport so that nobody would spit on us in uniform.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

It was terrible. Did uh did you get rated? Did I mean are you do you collect a check?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yes, I am a right now I'm at 80% disabled American veteran. Damn, that's a I bet that's a pretty nice check there. Yeah, service connected. It's it it's not as much as you would hope for it to be. If I was just another 20%, my wife could have health insurance. Yeah. Uh as it is now at 80%, it's just covers me 100% medically.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Um, with the exception of dental. It won't do dental.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Well, and I would tell you something, man. You know what, brother? I mean, the fact that you got injured that bad in there, uh, God bless you. And I think you deserve every penny that you got because uh, you know, um, I was in and I got to I used to see a lot of guys get injured and they didn't get anything, man. And you just realize some, you know, obviously life is not fair, right? But um, I want to see veterans get their benefits. I believe in that. I think if you served your country, especially like you during those times, uh, God bless you. Um thank you. Were there moments of camaraderie or humanity that helped you get through those hard times?

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Absolutely. There's no camaraderie that you could compare it to being a police officer or being a soldier. Anybody in uniform has that special camaraderie. 100%. And I think that is what probably beats you up mentally so much when you don't have that. You wake up and work with, you know, your partners, your brothers, sisters, and uh but it was just I I can't explain it anymore. Then that's it takes a real toll.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

It does. I would tell you something, though, in law enforcement, you know this, man. There's guys that I went to war with, and those people are they're not friends, they're family. Absolutely. Um, but you're right, you can't recreate that.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

It's gone.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

And I don't know about you, but a lot of times in the civilian world, I never found that level of camaraderie um camaraderie that I had with people in law enforcement. Absolutely. And, you know, uh one of my best friends in the world is still a guy that I met in the Navy. He lives all the way in Florida, but we talk all the time. And I just think, you know, by the grace of God, I met him because of the military, you know. And uh then I got guys that are strung out all over the United States. And Facebook has been a great tool because now we can all keep in touch with each other on Facebook. Um what is something about the Vietnam War that you feel people today misunderstand or overlook?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

I think a lot of people just like back then, um, you know, the general public was disrespectful to our soldiers and to anybody who is in the military service, even if you weren't in Vietnam but you were then there during that era, um it's it was the camaraderie was special because we were all getting treated like shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? So um we and we knew all we all we were were creatures of orders. Yeah, we follow orders. And if our orders are, you know, we gotta go over to Kent State and uh stand guard at a university, which was a big deal back then when the National Guard shot some stuff. Yeah, they opened open fire.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

But I mean, that's that's where you form your camaraderie is that um you gotta be a battle buddy, so to speak. You gotta have each other's back. Big time. And I think what a lot of people missed is in generalizing the war and generalizing the military, um, they missed the fact that we weren't over there fighting for truth, justice, and the American way. Yeah, you know, we were we were fighting to keep each other alive, yeah. So it didn't go any further than your platoon.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

I was gonna ask you this. Now that everything's come out about that war now, what do you think about all that? I mean, it just seems like now that, you know, like the Tonkin thing, that was kind of a false flag where they created that to make all that happen. I mean, what do you think about stuff like that when you see it now? I'm sure it pisses you off.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

It does. It's like anything else, um, political. It's it's it's bullshit. Yeah and um to put it bluntly, and it's you know, that war was fought from Washington.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

And if you think about this, and you know, I'm sure you think the same way, man, but I just think I think our elected officials have lost their way, bro. Oh, totally lost. And and you know, um, I think politicians should be out here trying to do what they can to help people, and I just don't see that happening. Yeah, and it's what's sad is that war um really divided our country. Um, you know, think about all the lives that were lost, even our our side, you know, the other side over really stuff that if you think about it now, really don't matter, and all those people died, you know what I mean? And it's sad. Um how were you treated when you returned home and how did it affect you?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Um when I returned home, we I I was in Walter Reed Army Hospital for months upon end. I was assigned to a medical holding unit, and when I was ambulatory again where I can walk around, um, and then I was allowed to finally leave the base. Um I I got to drinking and doing drugs. And uh I was on right there on Georgia Avenue, downtown DC. My brother was uh uh thank God, he was uh a police officer in the next town over, Arlington, and he saved me because he's I was living above a topless joint and going in reporting in to Walter Reed once every two weeks, getting my paycheck and going and blowing it on uh on strippers and booze. Why women in song, man? It distance it distances you, especially when the population is so much against. Yeah, you know, it's not it's like you couldn't come in and say, Hey, buy that guy a drink. He's in the army. Yeah, it was like don't you know, don't say a word, you know, just yeah, you know what it was.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Well, do during that time, I mean it was, it was just so looked upon looked down upon. And you know, now it's like you know, anytime I see, you know, it's like I've the last time I was walking through uh airport and I saw a bunch of guys that you could tell they'd just gotten out of boot camp. And uh I'm just looking at these kids and I'm just like thinking, man, you got your whole life ahead of you, you don't realize it, but um, anybody who serves has my utmost respect because um number one, anybody that serves our country or even serves our communities, in my opinion, I think these people deserve the most utmost respect. Um is there a particular person, military or civilian, that you still think about from that time?

SPEAKER_00 19:34

I had a buddy um that I just recently reconnected with him. His name was Robert Doherty. And um that guy, he's just he was my battle buddy. He was there with me during boot. Uh, and I ran into him again in my he was in my battalion down in uh Tiger Island. Um he was just one of those guys that I really looked up to. He was uh older than I was, by I don't know, not much, five, six years older than I was. And man, I was just a baby when I went in there. Wow, I was scared to death. I I'm not ashamed a bit to say I would lay in my bunk at night and tears just rolling out of my eyes, like, what have I done? Yeah, I just want to go home. Yeah, yeah. Um where's he at now? Where does he live? He lives in Virginia, or actually, I think he moved to Florida recently. Uh, but he was in Virginia, and that's where I joined was in Virginia, and we both went in, we ran into each other in in the um where you raise your right hand, swear in, get on a bus, and go to boot camp.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Oh yeah. Well, he now it's called MEPS. I don't know what was it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um what would you want younger generations to understand about service, sacrifice, or even about war itself?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Um to form your own opinion. Yeah. Don't don't jump in there because the whole campus or the whole neighborhood or the you know, all your buds are all looking at it this way.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

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SPEAKER_00 21:44

Don't be a follower, be a leader. Form your own opinion. Form your own opinion and look at it. Um not for face value, look at it a little bit deeper and you'll see where it's uh there there's always political motive. motivation behind war. There's always um the the break between NCOs and officers. You know, you they're two different beings. They are. And it's and it and that rolls over into any uniform service. Any in a oh even a law enforcement in the law enforcement. Oh big time man.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Horrible you know even right now I think uh especially you know with Vicelli man there's a lot there's a hard line drawn in the sand between command staff and line staff. Um when you look back now what originally pulled you towards law enforcement you know that was a that was a crazy story.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

I uh I was training horses over there in Exeter and running a trucking company and uh the trucking industry had did a flip insurances um they quadrupled overnight um the federal regulations changed you had to pay this guy for that fuel tax this guy for this fuel road taxes and everything else just so you could go through states yeah uh it it really got bad and um I got disgusted with it and uh that was something else uh from was left over from my military service um I was short tempered I I was an angry dude I was like why in the hell don't I get a break? Yeah I was fighting clawing for everything I had and um anyway I went in to Larry County believe it or not uh they had a program that you would go in and for any industry that was going down the tube so to speak and at that time it was a trucking industry uh a lot of people were losing their jobs a lot of people were losing their companies um people were losing their ability to make a living and so Tularic County threw in an aptitude uh thing you could go in and they would for veterans mostly and you would take an aptitude test and they would narrow it down to two things that you really stood out the uh career area you know modes and or career paths and I had either a heavy equipment operator or cop wow that's a pretty uh that's a wide spectrum yeah yeah and but it was actually I think it was probably because my brother I always saw my older brother he's only a couple of years older than me and um I always admired him because he was a fireman volunteer fireman when I was in high school um I hung out at the fire station with him got to know the cops because the cops hung out at the fire station yeah all his buds were all either cops or firemen uh paramedics that type of thing how many years did your brother how long was he a cop? Oh gosh he uh he was an active full-time for probably I want to say 15 years and then worked reserve for about another 30. Is he still alive? Oh yeah okay where's he at now? He just retired uh he is living in King George Virginia okay and uh has family and his daughter my niece is living in Georgia my nephew lives in Tupelo he's in uh Tupelo PD okay SWAT commander down there at Tupelo it's in the blood yep it is how old were you when you became a cop I was 40 years old I was a 40 year old fat guy didn't I've got to tell you this for the folks at home um that's a late run that's a late start to get into law enforcement yeah um there is nothing set in stone by policies but I can tell you this a lot of agencies are gonna have especially now that they got to go to 57 yes it's gonna be hard for it I've I don't know about that time now it would be very hard to get hired at 40. Absolutely you know um and I faced that actually I mean I I became a police officer right at the end of 99 the beginning of 2000. At what agency was that and I started I got hired by Tulary County uh sheriff's department but I found out that you had to go to the jails oh yeah as a prerequisite you're looking at a jail guy right here and I was thinking man I by the time I get out of the jails I'm gonna need a walker to go on patrol I wanted to get to the streets I wanted patrol uh I wanted investigations I was just chomping it the bit and uh so during the process with uh Tularie County I had already taken the lie detector and all that good stuff and I got offered a job at Woodlake Woodlake PD Woodlake PD who was the chief then Zappalak oh Zap yeah John Zap yeah he was actually on loan from the Sheriff's Department and there was kind of a conversation between him and my background investigator at the Sheriff's Department one of those conversations they're not supposed to have yeah and uh John turned around and gave me a offer um by after talking to my background investigator so he snatched me snatched me away from what was the payback in 99 holy moly um I went in as a oh what do they call it uh when you're not you're not sworn you're sworn but you're not full time like a reserve level one reserve yeah like a level one reserve so to speak and I didn't know it at the time Tim Smith was his lieutenant Smitty crazy guy you might remember him but he he tells me oh yeah dad you're in you're in you got this all you gotta do is come back and talk to the chief and go ahead go go quit your job go get a uniform and I was like okay I guess I'm hired and uh I came back after and I quit my job yeah yeah I come back in and uh first thing John says he goes now you know this is for a reserve position right and I was like I quit my job yeah yeah no I didn't know it was reserved Schmidty told me it was full you know what and you know what SAG Carrie that type of stuff happens all the time all the time now how long did you have to do the the reserve stuff I decided that I would show them I kept a notebook I I came in the guy that I quit uh truck brokering for uh he was a great guy and he said just come on back I'll give you 500 bucks a week just to show up and keep these guys straight and go do your reserve time and so he was wonderful uh Jesse Jesse Jesse uh it'll come back to me that's one thing when you get my age about 10 minutes from now I'll go Waters yeah that's him but uh you know he was great about it he took me back so I could still make a living yeah uh but I decided I'm going in there more than full time I spent 12 hours a day at Woodlake PD and I jump in with this officer that officer because I hadn't had my um field training got it as a reserve they they bring you up to a certain point and then they leave the rest for when you get hired full time so I'm I'm spending 12 hours down riding around with at the time there was guys Josh Manus I remember Josh yeah Josh Goodguy Mark Knox uh all those guys ended up going to Portaville oh yeah they all ended up at Portoville we had a real close relationship with Portaville there at Woodlake and I think a lot of guys went over there um Tony Espinosa you know I remember Sean Jackson's host yeah yeah I will tell you this tough part about Woodlake the guys that work there good people yeah no no doubt but the pay is not horrible is not good and in fact I think in Tularie County that is the lowest paid agency yeah and um I got to do my student teaching over in Woodlake uh recently and uh that's an interesting town brother yeah interesting town is indeed what did the badge represent to you when you first pinned it on it meant everything yeah it meant everything it felt like everything I ever wanted everything I that I was finally um it was where God wanted me to be yeah and I was a late bloomer as far as believing in Jesus as well I came from an atheist mom and a Muslim father so yeah what what do you do? Yeah yeah so I didn't I I was never a religious I mean when we got orders to go to num we I was pretty religious. Yeah but yeah yeah yeah um but yeah it was it was everything I ever wanted I knew that I was in the right place and just the way those doors opened up um I hadn't been to school in over 30 years 30 35 years something like that I don't know what it was it was close to 30 years I think but it was a long time I hadn't cracked a book and I went and took that test that you take to get into the academy and I passed it first go I got into the 93rd academy okay yes so I was 84. There you go yeah and I will tell you this I know what you mean there's just something I remember when I started there was something in me like this is where you're supposed to be exactly but you know my story is is not as smooth as yours man I had a lot of doors slammed in my face dude I um how would you describe the version of yourself that entered policing compared uh compared to the person you are today I bet that's way different it it is um it's funny because uh it was like night and day with me from when when I was saved I was I was like I do I I had no qualms about running my trucks on illegally you know putting uh buying two trucks putting one registration and splitting it between both trucks and saying don't two guys ever go on the scale together go so I mean it was I had no I I didn't have the morals that I had um when I almost it was like when I believed in Jesus he lifted me up and said look you're gonna take this path it was like night and day it was a 180 for me and I carried that that was all miraculous to me. Yeah and so I carried that into law enforcement with me and I tried to keep it down the straight and narrow but I it I think what got me my first job was they asked me that question in the orals were you know um what is why why do you want to be a police officer? And I said well I I hope to be different. I hope to have empathy for the people that I'm dealing with which I lost that at least you lose that empathy. You do but um but I hope to have you know make a difference. And I don't have a lot of time to do it in I'm 40 years old at that time um I hoped I'd get a 20 year career out of it that I fell short of and um the same thing in the army I had hoped to have a lifetime career as a soldier and I got cut short.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

So I'm thinking you know what does it you want from me God you keep I was gonna say you know this and I'm sure you think this there's just something you know back when I was growing up man drug dealer looked pretty good right but I will tell you something there's something that happens where you just realize everything falls into place and it pushes you where you're supposed to be absolutely and that's I mean that's what happened to me and it sounds like that's what happened to you.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

It did um I didn't know you were that religious and and so I will tell you this uh now that I do know that I will uh curb my um my language that I that was probably one of the hardest things that I I can listen I can hear bad language all day long doesn't bother me either way yeah uh especially being a police officer I mean that's how we communicate correct correct it's not sir could you please sit down it's like sit the down yes it is yes it is and so it's I don't mind it it doesn't it doesn't bother me like I guess there's some people I I got go to church with a few guys that would be like oh that that language you know I can't hear that are you Pentecostal or what are you No I am uh I'm Christian and I I belong to Rocky Hill community church over there in Exeter. Okay and um I've I I was kind of uh I've kind of floated around to different churches trying to figure it out I went to a Pentecostal church and it scared the beat Jesus out of me so I mean I was raised in that hellfire brimstone doing the bacon in the aisle that was scary for me and well Schmidty the lieutenant at Woodlake was a Pentecost preacher I did not know that yeah and that guy he was he was foul I mean that that Schmidty they had uh he was everything like the old uh the old cop stories that they had they police all day and drink all night oh yeah you know yeah and different time yeah different time I would tell you something you know recently uh in Woodlake um dude they actually have Tesla patrol vehicles I heard that and I haven't seen it yet haven't I heard they're actually pretty cool but I was talking to one of the guys driving it and he told me that thing will go 130 miles an hour. Wow yeah and quick too yeah I mean like from zero to 130 in a heartbeat. What do people outside the job misunderstand most about what it means to be a cop I think people look at you as a uniform. Correct they don't look at you as a person and they they tend to put you in a box with all the other cops. So if one of the and it's just like they tell you at the beginning you you you kind of laugh about it when you're in the academy and they tell you these stories about it only takes one guy to do this and then your your whole department's gonna live that down for the next couple of years you're gonna be fighting that reputation that he set and and that's what people I think misunderstand.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Well so too you know this somebody can mess up in New York Minneapolis absolutely uh Texas and uh we all get painted with the same brush yeah I have a problem with that and I remember right after the George Floyd stuff you know people are like why don't you guys go kill somebody like George Floyd and I remember telling somebody hey man that was thousands of miles away from here and I didn't have a damn thing to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Exactly uh you know um what were your first months on the street really like either emotionally mentally or spiritually well when I came into um I the it was kind of a different I was at the tail end of the old generation of cops and the beginning of kind of the new generation of cops and I didn't really fit in with either one I liked the old school way and I'm glad I got that training and I'm glad that I I got tactical communication which was different than what you see on the body cams nowadays but um I respected a lot of the old guys but when my first when I got when I passed my FTO got through and was on the street on my own they had one officer on and a sergeant until like three in the morning then you're on your own until 6 a.m when the day shift comes in and day shift only existed it was always a sergeant and a patrol officer and the then the day shift had chief and lieutenant and all those guys. So in those smaller PDs you might be the we had to depend upon the sheriff's department to be our closest backup out there in Woodlake and I'm glad I got to go through that because it it trained me to talk. Oh yeah and I would much rather talk you into handcuffs than fight you into handcuffs. And I took that mentality I mean I'm on at two o'clock in the morning you get a DV call and the sergeant's already gone home and you're on your own and the guy's 10 feet tall and pissed off yeah and and they say oh we gotta separate them you know don't put them where's the separation until I get some backup here I got nothing.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

I would tell you something you know that's something about Visa I think that me and a lot of guys took for granted that you know hey I mean you know we'd have eight guys on a shift oh yeah and you know we could overwhelm people with numbers yeah you didn't have that luxury no we didn't um was there a moment when early on when you realized this job is going to change me because I think everyone has it yes uh it didn't happen to me until well it happens to make you pin that badge on yeah it does it's that pride that that I want to say power but it wasn't really like a power trip it was just that I you know you're controlling people's and I I wished and and prayed that a lot of other new guys would have that feeling that what you do is going to affect this person the rest of their life.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yes and that's a big undertaking if you don't look at it that way. If you're just looking at like hey I got six arrests last night I look at it like I just changed six lives. They're gonna have to defend themselves in court they're gonna have to pay an attorney uh they may lose their marriage they may lose their job you know it's a big effect that you're gonna have on people it is and I wanted to make sure that when I was making those type of decisions whether to hook it book it or give them an opportunity to do right um and we had that discretion when I first started they don't really have that discretion now there's they don't and here's the problem Carrie I just said this on my last episode no good deed goes unpunished.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Amen more times than not I got written up when I tried to help people and and it really what it does is it reinforces this thing where you know what screw it I'm just gonna put everybody in jail. Sure. And because um I let some people go sometimes and it would just come back and bite absolutely every single time and you know I was like you I mean not to your level but I didn't get into it be to be mean to people. Right. But I will tell you this later on in life after you get zapped a couple times you know what you do you're just like you know what screw it I'm just gonna put everybody in jail. Yeah I'm not going to give breaks and it's a bummer because um what it does it really it almost takes the humanity out of it. It does because in the final analysis hey I'd just rather say yeah I booked him and wrote the report and get on down the road. Later on years later when I was training cops I told everybody the same thing I know you want to give this person a break. Do not do it. Yeah uh because it's gonna come back and zap you um you know and um you know I had some really close calls where uh thank God it didn't destroy my career but I've seen some people's careers get destroyed absolutely from helping. Absolutely how did your job affect your relationships both at work and at home well at the beginning my my wife and I we've been together 33 years.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

So the first wife been together this whole time? No. Okay it took me a few to practice on uh she's my third wife okay and the first one lasted about six months I think I was 19 and still kind of crazy from the army and uh the second one lasted 11 years and she got strung out on meth. All right and um that's a good run but that's a sad outcome it was a sad outcome because I did everything I could possibly do to get her straightened out and it just yeah it was sad. And we were very successful over there in Monterey County and uh had a big stable and uh quarter horse ranch and the whole nine yards but that that went south. What city were you living in over there? Lived in Salinas for a bit, but then we moved to Castroville right behind the Moss Landing power plant. Okay. And we were about five miles back into the slough there, the Elkhorn slough. And it was actually a Castroville address. Now, was that when you were working with Loretta Lynn? That was just after. Okay. That was just after. We moved out here in when I stopped working for Loretta and Mooney Lynn. Um, we had just moved out here. It was like 81, 81 or 80.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

And for the folks at home, uh Carrie used to ride Broncos. Is that what you did? And he worked for Loretta Lynn. And what what was that? What what how did that happen? Or what what did you even do?

SPEAKER_00 44:43

It was really cool. Um I I was doing just about anything you could possibly think of in horses, I'd get involved in. Um, I loved horses, I I loved the business. I loved at the I started off in kind of a Virginia hunter-jumper type realm. And then some cowboys came in, and I really my eyes just boom! These guys are cool. I want to do this. And I went to a few rodeos and I was sunk. I was hooked. And um I traveled with a guy by the name of Jimmy Myers and another guy by the name of Bud Fisher. And believe it or not, those guys were from New Jersey. Wow, New Jersey Cowboys. New Jersey Cowboys. And now were you guys doing rodeos? Is that where you guys were? We were we were actually um we belonged to what's now the uh P I R A. Um, there's like an eastern side of the PRCA, which is the NFR and all that stuff at uh in Vegas. And now it has just gone ballistic with money. But back then we were lucky to make enough money to get down the road. Yeah, just to get to the next radio. Yeah, especially if you're hauling your own horses. If you're hauling your own horses, like you're a steer wrestler or roper, um even if you're riding rough stock, you still got to carry your horses with you for the other events. So now you're having to feed them. Yep. Water, yeah, gas, food for you, place to stay.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Yeah, I'm sure it all adds up.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Yeah, exactly. And I got lucky, I got hooked up with I had a really nice truck and trailer outfit because I was trucking horses all over the place. So I hooked up with Bud Fisher and Jimmy Myers. Jimmy Myers was one of the first eight-time world champions. Wow. And it but he wasn't the seven million dollar cowboy. Back then you were like the $60,000 cowboy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And still a world champion. But um, he was the first guy to go eight consecutive world championship titles in bull riding and all around. Uh he rode bulls and bareback horses. And I traveling with him. I was Bud Fisher was a world champion team broper. So I learned a lot from those guys, but I tried my hand at everything. Um, we were following this chain of rodeos, they were all Coliseum rodeos, they were like the Capitol Center in Maryland, uh Madison Square Garden in New York, these big-time rodeos. And the people who were putting those on, it was a company called Longhorn Rodeo Company. And it was owned by Mooney and Loretta Lynn. Wow. And Loretta Lynn being the the first lady of country music, uh, they were very nice people, very down-to-earth, very good people. Mooney kind of ran the rodeo end of it.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

You know, they've done a lot. I mean, you know, I never got to meet her, but I tell you something, Loretta Lynn did a lot for people in the motorcycle industry. Yes. Uh, a lot of people, you know, obviously, you know, for what you were doing. Yeah. Uh, but that's just phenomenal that somebody has that type of uh pull that can do that and help people. Um, you know, like all the professional, you know, even to this day, all the supercross guys, they all started off riding in the Loretta Lens. Yes. You know what I mean? So she would put on those big amateur races on her property. And it's uh it's just cool.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Um she had a magic touch with like Coliseum type stuff, you know?

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Yeah, the big, the big Oh, I mean, plus she just had I mean her name carried weight. Absolutely. You know what I mean? Um what role did brotherhood play in your survival on the job as a police officer?

SPEAKER_00 48:37

I learned very early, and I had to learn really quick because I knew my career wasn't gonna be 20, 30, you know, maybe 40 years down the road.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

It was gonna be if I could make 20 years, I was yeah, because I'd say from 40 to 60, get out of 60, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah. And I wanted to do everything I could possibly do in law enforcement and be successful at it, be a be a good cop.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

I wanted to, I wanted to, if I was a detective, I wanted to be the best damn detective I could be. If I was um FTO, I wanted to be a great training officer. I wanted to be that guy that the the guys would remember as a guy who was a solid cop. He was a good guy, good cop, just like yourself, yeah. And and a bunch of our friends were you know, they're good cops. And um I I wanted uh I I had to do it quick, and that tended to put me as a target for those guys who like for instance, I went when they hired me full-time over at Woodlake, I made it through my FTO, passed through that real quick. And um how long did it take to get on full time? Um I ended up working uh like I was telling you, the 12 hours a day for it. Took me about six months. Okay, that's a long time. That's a long time.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

And thank God you had the trucking stuff on the side because you wouldn't be making no money.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

No, I'd have been I I would have had to have decided to do something different. And uh thank God I had um the the trucking deal going on, and a person who was lenient enough to let me work at the PD and come in just for a couple hours in the morning, that type of thing. But after I became full-time, a slot opened up, and it was funny because I remember going to the oral interview for that slot, and uh I got I think three chiefs and a couple of lieutenants on the oral board from other PDs. And they uh they asked me, so you know, what makes you think you're qualified to go full-time? I mean, all you've done is provisional, provisional. Oh that provisional, yeah, yeah. All you've done is provisional, you know. You you got you got your training done, everything. Now, what makes you think you deserve this full-time slot? I said, let me answer that. And I pulled out a notebook, every DUI that I was part of, every single arrest that I was with another officer or part of. And then when I I did actually get FTO'd when I became provisional. And so everything I was involved in, I kept the record of. It was like 16 DUI arrests or you know, 27. So, yeah, you had already gotten a pretty solid base. I had a solid base, and I said, So this, and I handed that to him, and I said, that's what makes me think I'm qualified for this position. And I said, I'm I'm not looking to be at one specific, I want to do it all.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

I I want to be your guy. I want to be on your SWAT team, I want to be on your, you know, entry team, I want to be uh your detective, I want to be your FTO, you know, all those. And I said, so you hire me, you're gonna get a rounded guy who will you can plug him in anywhere. And I kind of put my foot in my mouth because just after that I went full time, that uh um slot opened up for detective on a child abuse grant and that came from the governor's office. It was uh back then it was called the um Department of Criminal Justice Planning, doesn't exist anymore. It was under Governor Schwarzenegger, I think. And it may have started with Brown. Anyway, it was it was under one of the better governors and uh yeah, compared to what we got now. Yeah, absolutely. It's a wreck now, but um it consisted of two rural uh PDs, one being Wood Lake, another was like Mono Lake Sheriff's Department or something like that. They had like 10 deputies, you know. Yeah, yeah. It was small. And uh, and then two um and then two large agencies, one being San Jose and the other one San Diego. And they put us all the same training, um, they sent us all to the same schools, the whole nine yards child for and it was for child abuse. It was a child abuse grant. So you became a child abuse detective? Yes. All right, and I was assigned to a countywide task force, but all the stats I had to produce the stats out of Woodlake. And when it came to an end, I mean we were very successful. And I was only successful because I met a lady in Woodlake, uh Diane Pearcy. She was huge in the school district there. She was uh head of the school district. Um, she had been principal at all the Woodlake schools and all of that stuff, and she also ran the um what was the name of that uh that uh theyalthy start. Oh yeah, I remember I remember Healthy Start. Yeah, she ran the Wood Lake Healthy Start. And her and I, and John Zapalak always was uh he was an incredible detective. He had a lot of people didn't like him. A lot of he he fought with the sheriff's department.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Well, I think for him, that those were the years that he was trying to become sheriff. So there was always this, he was going against Whitman, and you know, and so there was a lot of people at that time, yeah, you know, me being one of them, because I loved Whitman because he gave me a job at the sheriff at the sheriff's office. Yeah. So I never got to know Zap alack. Yeah, but you're right, back in those days, a lot of people, I think because they were loyal to Whitman, yeah, that means you just naturally didn't like Zap. Exactly. And um how do you explain the bond between cops to someone who's never worn the uniform? Oh goodness. That's a tough question.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Um I would tell someone who's never worn a uniform that it is something that you have never experienced. It's a bond that you have never experienced between officers, and uh unless you were in the military, you you've experienced that same type of bond. Um, but it's like it's going into battle with somebody. It is, it's something you will never forget. And we've all had our hairy incidents never leave you. You were uh an OIS. Um, and you know, I actually was involved in an OIS with somebody who you know very well, I think uh uh Gilson.

SPEAKER_04 55:58

Oh yeah, Robert.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

Yeah, Robert, Robert and I were tight. We went to the academy together, we both started at Woodlake together. The day he got into a shooting um and shot that guy, he had an oral interview with the chief at V. Yes. Yes, I think it was Barker, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Um yeah, it would have been at the time. Yeah, and I think that yeah, we heard that um because he had gotten that shooting, they were like, hey, we're gonna hold off for now. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, that was a big deal because uh I remember when that happened. Yeah, you know, you don't see that offer that a guy gets into uh officer involved shooting, and then now he has an oral interview. Yeah, he got in the OS in the morning and again again. Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, he and you know what? And you know what, years later, um I got injured and I was in the detective bureau with him and I got to know him really well. Yeah, good dude. He is um what were the unspoken rules you learned that no one teaches in the academy?

SPEAKER_00 57:06

I've got one great one that I learned, and that is never bitch down. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, if you're gonna bitch and you're a supervisor or you're in charge of a detail, or whatever the case may be, if you're gonna bitch about the detail or bitch about the order you got from the top, bitch it up to your next in line. Use that chain of command.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

I would tell you this, and it's so true. And uh, I think years later it ended up coming biting uh back and biting me because when something sucked, I said it sucked.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

And when something wasn't right, I said it wasn't right. Right and I was very vocal. And you know this supervisors don't like that. No. And um, you know, I had some very contentious um uh conversations with supervisors, yeah. And for for whatever reason, and I hate to say this, but it was it's the honest of God's truth. A lot of the guys that we worked for like to supervise out of fear and intimidation. Yeah, there's something about that, Carrie, I don't respond to.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

And um, you know, I used to be like this hey man, treat us with dignity and respect. But we didn't get that a lot, and you know, and I think that business is changing now. Uh, you know, Pinto in my last episode, he said something, and I think it's totally true. Stuff that used to go on would not cut it in this day and age. You have a different generation. Yes, body cams have flipped the script because now everything's on body cams. Yeah, dude, we you know, man, we got cussed out by supervisors, we got treated like shit.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

And um, and I hated to see it, especially when we're doing the worst of the worst. We're out here taking on the worst people known to man, yeah. And we're fighting people, we're pulling guns, we're people are getting injured, things are happening. And some of these bosses just had this attitude like they could have cared less about us. Exactly. That I have a problem with, and um to this day, um, there's a some supervisors when I see them, I still do not like these people because of the way they treated us.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

I agree, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Um they had that better than thou, big time, and you know what, and we hated to see it, especially when a guy just got promoted. So last week he's a slick sleeve officer, this week he's a sergeant, and now he wants to treat you like he's 10 times better than you. And I had a real problem. Um what did a good day look like for you as a cop?

SPEAKER_00 59:48

A good day looked like uh when I'd come on the shift, and all the guys I really enjoyed working with were on that shift. Yeah. Um, you know, I started off being a single officer on on graveyards forever, and then gradually things were growing, you know, at the PDs. They they hired more officers. How many how how many years did you do at Wood Lake? I did seven years at Wood Lake and six years at Exeter. Yeah. Well, Exeter is bigger than yeah, yeah. Exeter was uh was pretty good size when I went over there. I lateraled over there, and that was a tough decision to make because I lived in Exeter. Yeah. And when you decide you're gonna police your own town, tough. Tough. I will tell you something.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

My career almost got sidelined forever trying to police my own town. Yeah. And uh it's tough because you know everybody. Yeah. And it can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing. And more times than not, I think it's a bad thing. I agree. Uh, people expect a lot from you that you normally wouldn't, you wouldn't have to deal with because you know these people. Plus, Exeter, I know Exeter. It's still got that small town. Tell Bill Everybody knows everybody. Yeah. Um, you know, and Vice, a good day for us. And it didn't happen often. But if you came in with no paper, if you came in with you came in with no reports, that was a good day.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Um, the problem with Vice, it's just too damn busy now. And you know, I mean, I think my last patrol shift, I responded to like 30 calls in a day. That's crazy, huh? That is nuts.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

And, you know, you're talking six arrests, driving out to Bob Wiley six times, booking six people, plus having evidence, then then all the paper that comes with that. Um, not always uh fun and games. Um what did a bad day look like?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

And how did you carry that home? Oh Lord, a bad day would be I was infamously slow report. I was a good report writer. I was a slow report writer. Got it. So if I was on my Friday and I was six down, meaning I had six reports I needed to get done before the end of the ship, and the shift was busy. I'm picking up paper call after paper call after paper call. So I'm just adding to this monstrosity that I had building. Uh and then I'd go in and, you know, I got off at 6 p.m., but it's now midnight and I'm still busy. You're still here. And then you hear a hot call. You're gonna jump up and run out to it, you know, because because that's what you do for your buds, you know, you're gonna back them up, especially when it's a small agency. But I had to really hold myself. So a bad day for me was a Friday with a lot of paper.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

Yeah, and you know what, dude, we'd have days like that where um, you know, a good supervisor would be like, hey, dude, why don't you come in a few hours, get that stuff knocked out? Problem was with us with Viseya, you could have two shootings go down at the same time. And you know this you're gonna send at least two to three cops at one, two to three cops at another. Yeah, now we got a traffic collision with uh fatalities, uh, and it's all going to shit at once. And uh there's many days, and you know, Visea, they weren't big on a Friday, and we didn't hold you, couldn't go home on your on any day holding paper. Right. You had to get that report in, but they're also not gonna let you sit there for five hours after your shift to do it. So um, you know, a lot of there were days, man, literally, when I wasn't responding to calls, I'm in the I'm in the car trying to get this stuff done. Sure. Now, what we're dealing with with Vicelia used to, we used to dictate all of our reports. Right. That was cool. Now it's all computer. And um it's changed the game. But now, dude, they're doing reports, bro, and they're adding stuff to reports. Now you gotta like um for the governor's office, dude, you got you gotta uh categorize it with somebody by uh uh you know, like non-binary, where they transgender, uh, where they all these other things. That's crazy. And all it does is just add and add and add. And there comes a point in time where there's really only so much you can do. Right. But um, you know, and I know you know this. I don't think law enforcement was ever meant to be um an arm of the politicals. It shouldn't be a political thing. It's just turned into that, and now I mean the guys out here, Vice has gotten pretty big. I mean, they're I think I think probably maybe next year or maybe by the end of the next year, maybe I think there'll be 200 cops. Um how did you cope with the cumulative stress that builds over years with the job? I was good at that, but I know a lot of people weren't.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Yeah. I I was pretty good at the things that were piling up mentally.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

Um the lack of sleep, the uh the bad dreams. Oh yeah. Um, you know, I got so formed a shell because I mean it there was a point where I was so sick of people lying to me. Every stinking person I spoke to that day lied to me. Oh yeah. And I would get so disgusted, especially doing investigations, they're all lying and they're wasting your time. You're going down, you're following leads to go nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

You know, it's so frustrating. And how I dealt with that is I tried on on my Fridays, or well, it was hard as a detective because you're always on call and you're getting called out. But as a patrol officer on my Fridays, I tried to walk away when I, whether it was three or four hours later off the paper or whatever it was, I walked away and I tried to forget about it. And that's a tough thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

It is. I will tell you something. Um, you know, I ended up being the voice of reason for a lot of people. And um, but I had some really good friends self-employed.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

Yeah, boy.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

And um, you know, lost their careers due to either A, D, Y, B, some other type of arrest. Yeah. And um, you really see that the job, for lack of a better word, it really does. It becomes a mind fuck for a lot of people. It does. And uh, I've seen that really, really uh mess some people up. And, you know, I think Vicea recently, uh, unfortunately, they ran across, you know, we've had multiple officers arrested over this last year. I hate to see that. But I also understand, you know, and I'm not condoning anything that anybody did, but you just see the stress of the job. Sure. There are normal human beings, yeah, and people are gonna make mistakes. But I brought this up on my last episode. If it's a cop, you know that that spotlight is gonna be bright when a cop makes a mistake. Um was faith present in your life during your career or did it evolve over time? My faith?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

Yes, it it was present from the beginning and still is. Um, and I think that made all the difference in the world. Yeah, it really did. Um I did a lot of praying on shifts. Um, just you know, I would especially if it's um back in the beginning when it was you're on by yourself, it's three o'clock in the morning. We had a guy that was shooting at every cop that he got into a traffic stop with. I can't remember his name now, but he was a bad dude. He was all over Tularie County doing armed robberies, stealing pickups. He was just, we were all after this guy. I think he shot a CHP guy in Exeter um at his house. Brazil, I think was Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do remember that. Yeah, yeah. And uh he was stealing Brazil's pickup out of his driveway, and they got into a shootout in the in the driveway, and Brazil got wounded. But um, so this guy, and he happened to live in Woodlake. I mean, that's that was his hometown. And I'm on late, it's 3:30, 4 o'clock in the morning, um, which means the the SO guys are heading into HQ for their briefing, and because the others come on at 5 a.m. And so I'm pretty much alone. There's no no backup, no nothing. And I'm cruising, doing my patrol, and I roll into these apartments, and lo and behold, I I see a pickup that was on the hot sheet, and I know it's stolen, and it's parked right outside the apartment of this guy's wife, the guy that we've been chasing. This he was like Tulary County's most wanted at the time. And so I radioed in, I said, uh run the pickup, the confirmed stolen. I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Hispanic guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was. And uh, and as it turns out, uh fast forwarding, I had no backup. Oh, yeah. And I parked away from the deal, and I was like, they're telling me, wait for backup. It was Sergeant uh, oh man, he he ended up getting killed in a car wreck. It was one of my favorite guys, Hernandez. Yeah, yeah, John. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my buddies, man. He lived in Exeter. We were buds, he was one of my mentors. And uh anyway, he always backed me. Greg backed me up every time. And he comes across the radio, he says, do not approach that guy on your own. Yeah, yeah, it was right. Greg Hernandez. Greg Hernandez. Yeah, yeah, Greg.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:49

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

Um go ahead. And I ended up, uh, I ended up, I think that was probably the scaredest I ever was as a police officer. Um, I got out and I was trying to take up a tactical position, but I saw movement at the top of the stairs. It's an apartment complex. You got stairs up, landing, a couple of apartments. As you're going up the stairs, his apartment door faces those stairs. And I saw movement. And I'm thinking he's either just going in, going out, he's watching me. I don't know what it is, but I've got to get a cover position until I get some backup here. And I found out later that he was in the peephole, had a shotgun, was getting ready to take it. Yeah, if I had done anything wrong uh tactically, I was probably gonna be a dead man that night. Wow. And I was scared because as I'm going up the stairs, I see a bloody knife, I see a freaking ripped t-shirt. It's like all these evidence things are are like he just got into a big fight with his old a. Maybe she's dead inside. Who knows? And I think it just kept getting worse. So I just kind of stopped and said, Lord, if this is the one, yeah, you know, protect me. And uh long story short, it it it it ended up the guy was hiding in the apartment, jumped out of second-story window, he and he actually got away that night after taking a couple pot shots at me and Greg.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:18

So but you know what though? Hey, I'd rather have that than be dead. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, and um absolutely what parts of the job did you love the most?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:32

I loved I love those hot calls when you're on a shift with your buds. Yeah. And you got those hot calls, and it's either it's uh uh, you know, a pursuit or a pursuit that ended in a hunt, you know, we setting up a perimeter and and things are going good. You know, we're finding our guy, or we got three and three outstanding, and uh two of them are in custody, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

You know what, brother? I miss I miss chasing cars, I miss pulling guns on people, yeah. I miss even some of the fights. I just miss wearing the damn uniform, man. And you know what? When I was getting out and I was like, I've had enough, but you know what? I'm getting ready to be retired for five years from Vicella. Right. And it went by in a blink of an eye. Didn't it? And I will tell you this, man, I miss some of the people. I miss the job. I just don't miss all the bullshit that came with it. Amen. And and um what parts of the job slowly wore you down?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:46

Politics. Oh yeah, dude. Politics. Um, I was the victim of a guy who wanted my position really bad. So he's literally lying to the lieutenant telling him I'm whacking my, I don't know, he did something about hours or whatever. Lieutenant starts accusing me of padding my.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:07

What was uh what was the guy's name that wanted your job? Uh Ramirez. Okay. And you know what's so funny, man? I don't miss any of those supervisors. I don't miss, you know what? It's like right when I was getting out, you know what I realized? Almost every call you, in fact, here's the fact every call you go on, you can still do it right and still get written up. Yeah, you can still be sued, you can still get in trouble. And right about the time I was getting out, I don't know if you felt this, there was just like this black cloud that no matter what you did, it never seemed like it was good enough. And then you had these supervisors, if they wanted to write you up, and um, you know, I got written up numerous times by PD, but um, I just look back on those times, I don't miss that shit. I don't miss it. That's the crap you don't miss. And you know, um, did you ever question staying in the profession or was your commitment absolute? Because I everybody I know, we were every every year we'd be like, I'm I'm gonna go find something else to go do, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:14

Right. Um, there comes a time, I think it's it's like it's kind of like the seven-year itch, I think. Yeah, you know, around your seventh year or so, you start thinking, you know, is this really what I want to do the rest of my life? Big time. Big time. And but for me, that's that's kind of how it felt. And then I was like, I'd shake that off and go, you know, this is I I I get paid to do this. This is freaking great.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

Yeah. So did you take a nice pay raise going from Woodlake to Exeter?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:45

I did. Okay. I did. At the time, it was uh it was a very large pay grade difference. Woodlake was like the lowest in the county, and Exeter at the time was the highest.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:55

Um, I would tell you this. You know what's so funny? The smartest thing I ever did was about every three or four years I would go to a different unit. And that kept it fresh. Because I think guys that did nothing but patrol, I don't know how they did that. I think guys that if you stayed in one unit for too long, I think it affected you. So like every three or four years, I was looking to make a move, bro. And it kept it fresh, and it kept it where uh, you know, I had multiple years being in, you know, I had more than probably more than half my career, right? Where I was by myself. I worked in schools for eight years. Yeah. Then I was on commercial, commercial policing for four years. So, dude, there's 12 years right there where I didn't really. I mean, I yes, I had a supervisor, but he didn't care what I was doing as long as I was doing my job.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:52

So I didn't have that dark cloud because patrol and gangs, uh, those you are closely supervised. Absolutely. And and I think almost too supervised at times. I agree. Um how did identity and self-worth become tied to the uniform? My identity for a lot of years was hey, there's Jay the cop. And and you know, good and I think it's bad. Because I think, and you know this, I used to say this, and I don't know if you feel like this, never uh tie yourself to something so much that it encapsulates your identity because when you lose it, you lose that. And I would see cops that would get fired or get injured and get pushed out. But I felt bad for them because not only A, you lose your job and you lose your identity in the same day. Yeah. And a lot of people do not handle it well.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

Well, it's true, it's very true. In fact, my um when I met it medical doubt, it was um it was kind of a stutter step because I was off on 4850 for a long time for the injury that I had on duty.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

And um for the folks at home, 4850, that is that is the actual paperwork uh that says that you were off work because you were injured.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:26

And I fought for you fight for light duty, you know, because you want you don't want to be completely out of the picture. Yeah. Um and then I I kept getting told, oh, there is no light duty. So I had to throw the book at him and say, hey, so-and-so is on light duty for six months because he's your son-in-law, or what? You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, so I I I I got to still do my light duty, and I came off of light duty, and I had about six or seven months. I came right back into my FTO deal and had a brand new trainee. And in fact, my trainee, I think, was a is now a lieutenant at the SO. Who's that? Jake or Jay Lowry. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I FTO'd him, and uh it's it's funny because I came back in, I started FTOing uh Lowry, and I had a I hadn't a blood clot break loose from my injury. I had no idea I had a DVT, um, and that DVT broke up and I had a bilateral pulmonary embolism on duty.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:37

I was gonna say you're lucky you ain't dead from that. I should carry.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:41

Honestly, dude. I should be, had it not been for A, my sergeant saying, You look like shit, go home. And B, home being close enough that by the time I pulled in the driveway and passed out in my patrol car, my wife was that like, what in the world? And got an ambulance right away. So I was just blessed. It wasn't my time. Yeah. And uh, but I'll tell you what hit me like a like a running into a truck um without a car was was when I realized I can't go back to work. Oh yeah. And it's you're right. It's it's I was one of those who uh my identity was carry the cop. Yeah. No, no, I I get it, brother. I get it. I was full on invested in what I did for a living, what I did as a person. You know, I'm helping people on my off time. I'm working with explorers, I'm going to this, I'm going to that, this training, that training. You know, it was my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:52

Well, I would tell you this, man. When I always say this about law enforcement, you can love law enforcement, but law enforcement don't love you. And and here's the tough part, man. We all gave so much to this job. You know, I gave 25 years of my life to law enforcement at an agency that it ain't too easy to do. Uh, I saw a lot of people get pushed out, fired, injured, prosecuted, all these other things. And um, you know, so for anybody like yourself, and now that you know, I back then I didn't know you like I know you now, ma'am. But do you know what, brother? God bless you that you got to get out and still have your mental faculties. Because I've seen this job do some do a number on people, brother, where uh they were never the same because of this job. That I hate to see. It's and it's very difficult to see because I think there's some people, and I hate to say this, but there's some truth. I don't think they're ever gonna recover. And and that is truly, truly sad. It is. Um what does the public rarely see about the earn and the internal cost of policing?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

The aftermath. Um, when I had to stop against my own free will, it was just something it ended up. Yeah, the decision gets taken out of your hands. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And then all of a sudden, I went from being like good cop, good guy, supervisor level, you know, that kind of thing, and and no problems. And to now I'm a dark cloud because I had to hire an attorney to understand all the 4850 stuff. I knew nothing about post-part or retirement with um CalPers and all that stuff. I didn't know any of that garbage. So I had to get an attorney to explain it all to me and to keep it on the right path. And because I hired an attorney, now I'm a piranha.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:02

Yeah, because now it turns into this contentious thing, you versus the city. Yeah. Right? Yeah and so, and cities, they don't like to give those checks. No, so guess what? They're gonna fight you tooth and now. Yeah, and I'm sure they did.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:16

They did, they absolutely did, and I was lucky enough to finally come out. I I I didn't come out on a winning end uh by all means, nobody does, because I had the aftermath, I had PTSD. Um, you never, and then I it started to really bother me that I knew all the signs that I was gonna have trouble mentally at the end of it. And I I just saw all the warnings, the anger, the not giving a shit, um, looking at everybody like they're a dirt bag. And you know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

For the folks at home, cops, we are the worst at that. Oh, yeah. We really are. Yeah, you know what? Uh, you know, I'm living my best life right now, man. But my my wife recently, she told me, she goes, Jay, you were so judgmental. Because it is, we do, you know, it's like, well, we'll be driving somewhere, and I'm like, okay, there's a crankster, there's a there's a gangster, we're gonna go this way. And she's like, you know, Jay, you know, you don't why do you say this? And I'm like, it's imprinted on me forever, and it's gonna be that way. Um, I will tell you something. You know what I got to see, and I recently wrote this in my book. I said this it's the front row seat to the greatest show on earth. Amen. Okay, but there is a price to be paid to do it, it's not free. And I got there, you know how many cops through the years that I've sat down with and they have become alcoholics, addicted to painkillers, going through a divorce, been arrested, or just emotionally wrecked or angry at the world. And I I thank my lucky stars that that didn't happen to me, Carrie. I really am because I see some of these guys, and there's a couple guys that come to mind right now, man, and I feel so bad for them because I when I see them, I feel sorry for them because I know if not for this job, I don't think they would be experiencing all the bullshit that they're going through. Right. That is hard. And then you know this, here's the problem. They don't want to hear it either. No, you know what I mean? And I've you know, I mean, I I get a lot of respect for from people around town, but I've had to sit down with some people and go, hey bro, you gotta let it go. You just gotta let it go. Because guess what? The world keeps spinning. Yeah, and and then here's the other thing you know this you leave on a Monday or leave on a Friday, we'll replace you on a Monday by next Friday. Yeah, you are an afterthought. Yeah, it's over. Um looking back, what would you tell your younger self about entering law enforcement?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:30

I would tell my younger self this not to think about the end. Yeah. Think about what's gonna happen at the end and take care of yourself mentally. Yeah. Um, because there's no there's nothing in law enforcement. I and I pray that they it's better these days than it was, but I mean you you take a nobody's gonna I've seen suicides that that Tilary officer that just committed suicide on duty. Yeah, I'm like these guys they know it's coming. You feel those effects, you feel that PTSD, you know you're not sleeping, you know you're having nightmares, you know that, but who are you gonna go talk to about it? The minute you go to your supervisor, now you're uh 5150.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:23

No, you you know what? You just you said it, brother. I never went to a supervisor and been like, hey, I need to go talk to somebody. The only in fact, the only time I got was when I got to my OIS, and that was a one session, one hour deal. And you know this, Carrie. That's that's the same as not even doing anything. Amen. And um, but I will tell you something. That officer and Tulary, when that happened, that rocked the the law enforcement community. Yeah, number one, he was very well liked. Number two, I will tell you this, man, bro, and this is no shit. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more. I I really am. I you know, and and when I say that, man, I've had some people kind of go, really, Jay? And I'm like, hey, bro, there are some people out here dealing with some serious PTSD. Just the fact of not only this stuff that we do, but man, Carrie, we've seen stuff that most people don't want to see. Amen. And then when you do try to explain to people, I've had some people go, damn, Jay, that's pretty graphic. And I'm like, and I'm watering that shit down, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And uh, you know, so um take us to the day of the on duty injury.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:40

What do you remember clearly about that day that it wasn't as bad as it felt? Yeah, yeah. And how did you get hurt? I don't think I've ever asked you. Um I had uh had a hot call. I was actually in the city hall and had a hot call. And came running out, and I was the guy bailed. I was chasing him down an alley. Uh, there's the other guys were arriving, setting up a perimeter. He goes over a fence, I go over a fence. My I go down into a hole, and I kept going, but my ankle stayed in the hole. So I tore my ankle to pieces. Um like all the ligaments and all that. Yeah. All the tendons, ligaments, everything. It had to be, I've got screws and a plate and a rod and all that crap in there. And what took so long because I developed blood clots was because it took so long to process the 4850 processor.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:40

Also, too. I'm sure that uh just the initial pain. I bet you that got your attention. Oh, yeah, boy.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:47

I'm like, why did I chase that guy?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:50

Do you know how many times that I've been on a call where a cop has been seriously injured? And the cop is like, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:02

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:02

And and I've had to be like, no, you're not. And like a supervisor would get there, and I would literally have to go over to the supervisor and like whisper in his ear, he's hurt bad. You know what I mean? And because nobody wants to say that they've been injured. Right. Carrie, I broke my hand twice. Once fighting a 300-pound prostitute, and uh the other time fighting in uh um an apartment complex. But I tell this story, and when I say that, it's like you know, we would punch and you know, because you know this, there's no rules in a fight. And when you're fighting for your life, you're gonna do what you got to do. But man, dude, I broke my hand, dude. And you know what my supervisor said? Yeah, drive her out to Bob Wiley and book her Jay, and then we'll figure out what's going on with you. I had a problem with that, but you know what? I was a good soldier, I did what I was told. But you know what? We shouldn't have to be good soldiers, bro. Because in the final analysis, let's take care of our people. And I just think that that doesn't happen, you know, and um, you know, things do uh, you know, they fall through the cracks, you know. Um well I am a master storyteller. I got a story for you. Okay. Okay. So me and an officer get sent to this apartment complex for a large black lady that is whacked out on something. And we at the time we didn't know what it was. At first I thought it was booze, but I think later on it was, you know, either PCP or something, right? Right. But we get there, and this lady weighs all of 300 pounds, and she is screaming so loud in this courtyard and is just echoing off the buildings, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:51

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:52

And uh, so I'm trying to talk to her, and I'm like, hey, hun, you know, calm down, let's talk. And before I know it, dude, she turns around and starts running up the stairs. Now, initially, I started laughing because uh it's not often you see a 300-pound person running up, running up some stairs. And I remember each butt cheek was about this big, right? So I started laughing, and I didn't even chase her. My partner got a little overzealous. He chases her. Oh no, and they're going up these stairs, and they get to the door, she goes in the door as he's trying to go in. She um slams that door and it hits him right here. Oh man, hard, bro. I mean, hard. Like you can almost hear the crack. Yeah, crack. And he goes back. My partner was a large man. I mean a big boy. Right. And he starts kicking at this front door.

unknown 1:31:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:51

And he's kicking that door so hard that it's actually I could see the whole apartment building kind of doing this. Oh my. I mean, he's rocking this building. Yeah, he's got legs, huge legs. All of a sudden, boom, one foot in, goes through the door. Now he's got one foot in, one foot out. Oh my god the door is deadbolted. So I'm telling him, get your leg out of there because I don't want her to stab you with your leg in there. And he's like, I can't get my leg out because now the shards of the door are kind of going into his leg. She starts throwing full beer cans at his leg while it's inside. And finally I said, get your leg out of there now. And he just muscled it and just ripped his leg out. And now he's got like you could literally see the like shards of wood in his leg, right? But now there's a hole like this in the door. So I look through there, she throws a beer can. So I finally put my arm in the door, unlock the deadbolt, and uh I go in there and she picks up this beer can. And before she, I just went crack and I cracked her right in the nose as hard as I could, and down she goes. So we jump on her, get her handcuffed. Well, my partner, you know, his legs jacked up. And so um, you know, he's like, take her downstairs. Dude, she tries to throw, she tries to like use her weight and have us tumble down the stairs. Right. Literally, I've got her hooked like this, and then around the um the railing of uh, and we're on a second store. And I was like, help. And he finally came and we finally got her down. Uh, we have to wrestle her all the way down these stairs, finally get her in the car, drive her to the hospital. She wigs out so bad, they finally have her give her a shot of Hal doll to chill her out. Finally, we get her in a wheelchair, she's asleep now. We take her out, put her in the car, drive her to Bob Wiley, and it took three deputies and me to get her out of the back of that car. And I tell people this you don't think it, but you know what? It doesn't matter, man, woman, people can be dangerous at any sex.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:14

Uh, we got lucky that day. Um, I remember thinking how easily um she could have stabbed him in the leg, how easily I could have tumbled down those stairs trying to hang on to a 300-pound woman, could have wrenched my back forever, could have done a lot of stuff that didn't happen. We got lucky.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:34

Um, how hard was it to accept that your career had to end before you were ready? I'm sure that was tough.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:46

It was horrible. Yeah, it was horrible. I was really suffering.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:54

Um, I was so angry. Well, plus, I'm sure now that you know you're not allowed at the PD. I'm sure people aren't coming by to check on you. Maybe, maybe one or two guys, but everybody else is like, you know this. Guys used to say, nobody checks on me. And I used to tell people, remember this, bro. World keeps spinning.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:13

And especially now that you've gotten this contentious thing with the city, there's a lot of guys that are like, oh, Carrie's radioactive right now. You know what I mean? Yeah. And they don't want to get sucked into it. But here's the sad part. Now you're at home, and people you thought were like family are not treating you like family.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:33

So I'm sure that was hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:35

That was tough because the whole time you're being told we're a family here. We we're, you know, you got problems, you come in here, you're you can always come to this BD. Even when you're injured, you can come down here anytime. Well, first thing I know they said, Hey, do you could we get your key? Oh, yeah. I'm like, What do you I haven't even Don't call us, we'll call you. Yeah. Did they seize all your equipment and all that? Yeah. Yeah. All of a sudden it's like, turn in your equipment, give us your key. Um, you're not gone yet. You know, we're we're still gonna pay you and all this stuff. It just gets weird. It gets weird. It does. And I'll tell you, the officer that made it not so weird for me was uh Daniel Green. Yeah. And he was my butt I I when I first got hired by Exeter, he was a young, I mean, this guy was a go-getter. And we used to actually, when I was on duty in Woodlake, we'd laugh at him because he was 816, I think he was at Exeter. We go, oh God, watch this. He's gonna get in a pursuit. He was always into the shit. And when I came to work at Exeter PD, uh Cliff Bush told me, he says, Hey, can you take this youngster I've got under your wing and I'm gonna put him on graves with you and just kind of calm him down a little bit? Yeah, yeah. He's like getting written up one right after the other, you know. And uh it was hilarious uh because I gotta tell this quick story. We lost a prisoner. We'd been chasing this guy all night, and we finally catch him. He had a stolen vehicle, he had guns, yeah. It was a big catch. And we drag him into the PD and we put him in the cell, and we're patting each other on the back. And I was like, come on, let's go have a smoke. Dad, this back when I smoked, and let's go outside and have a smoke. So we're in the Sally port having a cigarette, and man, this is they're gonna be so happy we got this guy. This is great. And we look up and he's standing there in front of us. It's like I look at Daniel, Daniel looks at me. He he just never even touched the wall. He's over a 10-foot wall, gone. And we were like, holy shit, how did that just freaking happen? So we had an escape. VPD came, everybody came looking for this guy because he's dangerous, he's armed and dangerous, he's freaking gonna be a problem. So, fast forward, we're standing in the parking lot, Daniel and I getting ripped by the LT, who was Kevin Wright at the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:17

Oh, yeah, oh yeah, Mr. Personnelity.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:21

That's him, and he's ripping us a new one. And and he says, You guys are just accept the fact that there's gonna be uh and uh you're gonna, what is it, the internal investigation? Oh yeah, you guys are gonna get written. You're gonna get IR, honestly. And uh, and I looked at Danny, I said, Man, I've I've never had an IR, I've never been a part of one. I was like, what do I he go? He puts his arm around me, he goes, Don't worry, Dad. I've had plenty of them. I'll walk you through it.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what? And I've often said this I they they law enforcement expects perfection. Yeah, there is no perfection. And I think that when guys make mistakes, you know, uh back in the old days, you get your ass chewed. Nobody was writing a report. Later on in life, the ass chewans quit. Now it's nothing but now you're getting everything's documented and it's horrible. Um what emotions surfaced when medical retirement became unavoidable?

SPEAKER_06 1:39:36

Heartbreak.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:37

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:38

Heartbreak. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:40

Um depression. Oh yeah, and and then the anger. Oh yeah. Um I came to I I was doing in fact right here in this complex, I was doing military logistics. Uh, we were just moving stuff all over for the military. It's like a truck broker type thing. We're setting up transportation for military stuff. And I'm I was sitting there thinking, uh, this is not what I want to be doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:12

I'm doing this because I have to. I gotta make a dollar. Yeah, I gotta support my family, but I don't want to be here. I hate this. This sucks. You people suck. You over there, you're a dirt bag. I know, because I hooked your ass. Yeah, yeah. You know, that type of thing. And he was a gang, there was a gangbanger in there, kept poking me, poking me, poking me. And it got to the point where I was I got into his face, you say one more word to me, and I don't give a shit about office etiquette or any of that bullshit, you're gonna wear an ass whooping, and I'm gonna hand it to you. And so he walks past a couple days go by, and this I'm just fuming at this guy, and he walks past my desk. He says, Hey L BC, I know where you live. Uh, wrong thing to say. And he was he was a gangbanger, and I had already told the boss, I said, You know, this guy that you hold so dear and near is a little gangster out of Lindsay, right? Because when I was on the task force, I knew this guy. He we used to chase him all the time, and he says, I know where you live. And I held it in, and he goes, Oh, and even better, I know where your grandkids live. Jesus. Oh, Jay. I that's the day I lost my military logistics job. Yeah, yeah. I came up over the desk and drugged him outside. And I, if it hadn't been for a couple of friends that worked with me that drug me off of him, I'd have killed him.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:47

And that's that scared me.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:50

I would tell you something. You know what? I've had to tell some guys that I worked with dirt bags are not worth us getting in trouble. Yeah. And um, you know, for whatever reason, um, I always had a hard and fast rule. Nothing good happens after 10, right? So 9 45, I'm going to the barn, bro. But a lot of my partners, dude, they'd be out late at night in bars and get into some dust up. And you know this, you can never intelligently explain why you got into a bar fight. Right. And uh Vice A P D, they don't have no sense of humor when it comes to this type of shit. And it's it is, it's a bummer, man, because you know what, dude, you're, you know, clearly professional dude, but dude, nobody wants their family being threatened by anybody. I mean, that's bull. Um how did you grieve a career that ends against your will? I'm sure, you know, man, I've had to talk to some guys that literally told me this. I had guys, I mean grown men cry.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:55

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:56

And, you know, I listen the best my I can, but I'm sure did you have those days where I absolutely did, Jay.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:04

I I was um I was devastated. I I was devastated, and you go through so many emotions. Um, I think the only savior that I had, and you know what's sad is a lot of cops go through it, even cops that retire voluntarily, yeah, suddenly realize I I'm not in control anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:27

Yeah. I tell you something, man, I got to leave it at 50, but um man, dude, I tried to jump back in it with Amtrak and all this other shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:37

And you just realize, man, you know what, bro? But you're right, man. It's like it became so much of my identity that I finally had to come to the grips of, you know, Jay, it's time to go do something else.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:49

In two weeks, I'm gonna be 55 years old. And, you know, father time has its way with all of us.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:55

Amen, brother. Amen. It's funny. Um, I got upset because they agencies don't have anything in place for that. They do not. They I, you know, I I think there should be mental health programs that, you know, every now and then just call you in, have a, you know, a professional, have a talk with them. I I thank God for the VA. The VA was there for me when I had my injury and I was going through all the emotional crap and the PTSD. The PTSD was horrible, but the VA, boy, they are tuned in the PTSD. Big time. And um they just scooped me up and took care of me. And I got to thinking the whole time that I'm getting treated by the VA and helped, literally just a godsend, um, that I was, you know, taken care of by the VA. Um, I got to thinking, why is this not in place for veteran officers?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:58

It's not. And you know, here's the tough part for cities. When you walk out that door the last day, you know what they think? Good riddance, and we're on to the next one. Yeah. And I think you're right, man. I mean, you know, I brought this up, and I don't know what you think. I think there should be a full-time off uh some full-time psychologist at police departments. Absolutely. I mean, you know, little cities couldn't do it, but uh, Vise could afford to do it, the sheriff's office could, Teleri could afford it, Porteville could afford it. Yep. Have somebody to help these people, but you know this, man. The minute that you talk to a psychologist, there's always this negative connotation that, oh, can you not handle this anymore? Absolutely. And immediately the cloud of oh, big time. Yeah. Big well, and I've had some fellow officers say some dumb shit, and next thing you know, they're having to do a fitness for duty, you know what I mean, uh interview, which is not good. Um what was the hardest part of losing the job, not financially, but personally?

SPEAKER_06 1:46:01

The I don't want to say the power.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:05

Um that that loss of the camaraderie, that that loss alienation of the PD. Um I mean, just driving past the PD, wanting to go in and hang out with the guys or you know, go see what's up in the patrol room or or whatever. You can't. Yeah. I think the first time I walked into the PD and went into the lobby and said, Oh, hey, I need to see, you know, Sarge, and they were like, Okay, we'll have a seat. Oh yeah. What?

SPEAKER_01 1:46:44

Oh yeah, yeah, because you know this when you're in, you're in. When you're out, you're out. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:51

Um, that sucks. It's it's a rude awakening.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:54

It is. Um, how did it feel to watch the job continue without you?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:01

Oh, dude. That's it. It's tough. And because I lived in the town that I was policing, I'd see guys going past, I'd be like, you know, out in my front yard. And oh yeah. Oh yeah. I'm like, guys, it's still me. And it took a long time for me not to um feel emotion when I see a unit drive past.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:29

I would tell you something, you know what's so funny, man, is I live in a gated community, and um I just there's a brand new VPD officer. He just cleared FTO. Right. Right. And so when I come out my front door to get in my car, there's a there's a VPD unit now there, you know, and he came over from the sheriff's office, squared away, dude. But talking to him, man, you know, um, you know, because we live less than a probably not even a quarter block from each other, man. But dude, it's like I talked to him and I just think, Jesus, man. You know, I miss it. I miss some of it, but I'm also very proud of the fact that I got to leave when I wanted, not when I was being kicked out the door. That I think is a hard thing for people, you know, and even for you. You know, think I you got injured, but think about the guys that get canned. Dude, these poor guys, man. And I think that there's there's people that struggle with it, and it takes years for people to come to grips with it. Absolutely. Especially if they think that they were truly, truly shafted.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:38

Um what happens to a cop's identity when the badge is taken away? Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:49

It's like night and day.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:51

Big time.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:52

It's like night and day. Um you are suddenly you're not Jay the cop anymore, you know. Oh you're Jay Joe Schmo. Yeah, yeah. Jay Joe Schmoe, that's it. And uh, I think you lose that identity. It's it's it's like losing a relative, you know? Yes. And it's tough. You actually have a mourning period where you're just depressed and sad, and uh you wonder, you know, the hell.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:22

I would tell you something, you know, who struggled with it pretty badly was O'Gibby. You know what I mean? And I watched your interview.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:30

And I do, you know, and I love him. Yeah, but dude, you know, um he went out on a stress leave, man, and and it affected him because you know that now he can't get a C CW, he can't do all these things. And I truly love him, man, and he's been through a lot. And um, I'm so proud of him because he's turned it around a lot of ways. But man, bro, I mean, he struggled with it. I mean, we'd go to restaurants and he, you know, you know, because I'd be in uniform and you know, people like Hey, Officer Mike Williams. And you know, he'd you'd be like, hey, I used to be a cop too. You know, and uh um did you feel forgotten once you were no longer active?

SPEAKER_00 1:50:12

Absolutely. Absolutely. I felt alienated by the PD. I it's there's only a few officers in there that would go out of their way to say hello to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:25

And and now it's been, I mean, I've been retired now since 2013. That's a long run. That's a long run. And so I I still, it took me a long time to get over those emotions. I'm over it now. I'm good right now. But it's even still, I get these twinges when I see like the whole PD has turned over twice since I've been retired. I mean, talking about all new different personnel, there's not a soul there right now at that Exeter PD that was there when I was there.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:00

Also, too, you know what, man? I remember when they were uh recently they were in that trailer because they were uh refurbishing the PD. So, you know, you're right, man. And and I I somebody had told me one day about Exeter uh that um Tulary PD keeps uh stealing their people. So yeah, you know what I mean? And um, because you you're you know, think about this the guys in Exeter, they're doing their job, and God bless them. But you know, if you offer a guy a thousand dollars a month to come to us or go to Tulary, yeah, not many people can turn down a twelve thousand dollar a year raise. That's right. And you know, God bless people who do it, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:41

Um and I think it's a good move. If you're if you're a young cop and and you've been successful at a small agency and you've got the wherewithal and uh and you're a good cop and you you're gonna make it at a bigger PD. You can do it, yeah. And I think for there's some people that uh they can't get out of that small town because they're not capable of getting a job at a big PD.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:08

You know who I ran into? It's been a while back, but uh remember a guy named Brett Englehart?

SPEAKER_00 1:52:14

Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, good dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:16

Yeah, right. So I worked with Brett. Yeah. Uh, but you know, hey, he was a lieutenant. Hey, and hey, he just one day just said this. I don't want to do it anymore. Done. And you know what? He um I talked to him, it's been a while back, but we were talking, and you know, he's out doing some other stuff, and he loves it. I know you know he he's uh like I think Brett, if you know, we always kind of thought that Brett would probably be the chief there one day. Yeah, you know, um, but um he just said, hey man, I don't want to do it anymore. And I love it when guys can go, you know what, I've had enough. I'm gonna go do something else. And then God bless him, God bless his family. Yeah, and uh I like to see it. Um how did your brothers and sisters and law enforcement respond to you during that time? A lot of it is probably just probably like Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:11

They they kept me at an arm's length, you know. They didn't uh they acknowledged my presence if we were run into somebody, you know, but they it's like you're not in on the secrets anymore. Not the secrets, but the the the stuff that we as cops we'd sit around talking about this guy down here, or you know, he got hooked here, blah, blah, blah. We're we're talking business, and you don't get that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:41

I tell you, dude, I had somebody at the PD literally tell me you're not one of us anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:48

And, you know, I was like, hey, dude, I didn't get fired, I retired. Yeah. You know, and and and you know, at the time I wanted to punch him in his face because they just, you know, but he was just like this, but you're not one of us. And I look back on it now, and he actually did me a favor. You know what I mean? Because um, you know, I just assumed we would all be friends forever. Sure. But what you realize is that's a fantasy, dude. It is. It's not gonna happen. And uh there's certain people, man, uh, they only want to be your friend while you're in it. And when you're not, or you can't do anything to help their careers uh screw you. Yeah, you know what I mean. Um were there moments where you felt isolated or disconnected?

SPEAKER_00 1:54:34

Yeah, a lot of those moments. Uh when you first leave and it's not on your own accord, um you have a lot of those isolations. Um it's weird because I felt isolated, but there comes a point where you just stop making any attempts to not be isolated. Oh yeah. And you're like, I ain't going down there. There's a all the guys will be down there. Nope. Or, you know, hey, why don't you stop in at the PD? No, I got nothing to do with the PD.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:09

You know, I told the story, man. Gibby showed up one time and brought like, you know, snacks and drinks for the guys at the PD, you know, during the holiday season. And he was doing it just to see people, man. And one of the supervisors flat out called me in and told me, tell him we don't want him down here if he can't push a car. And you know, they wanted me to tell him that, you know, because you know, he's family. Yeah, because he's family to me. And uh when I told him, bro, it hurt my heart just to tell him that. And I remember the look on his face when I had to tell him that. It just man, it it's it's sad, man. It's truly, truly sad. Because especially, you know, like you, you know, you gave 15 years of your life to this work. Yeah, you know, and uh, hey, bro, but it's it's that old adage, what have you done for me lately? Yeah. And you know what? Um, how did the injury affect your mental health?

SPEAKER_00 1:56:06

Man, it it was hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:08

Um were you and the wife having problems during that time?

SPEAKER_00 1:56:13

Actually, no, that I thank, I was just gonna say, I thank God for my wife. Um, she supported me through every bit of it. She would always um give me the the brighter side of the coin. Yeah, yeah. It's okay, you know. We you're you did everything. Look at all the things you accomplished while you were there. You know, you got officer of the year, you did this, you got a governor's award, you got to be a detective, you got the, you know, she always give me the accolades, you know. The yeah, you you manage you're you didn't go out that being a bad cop, you know, you weren't running around with a 17-year-old explorer, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:53

And for the folks at home, unfortunately, that's happened more in our line of work than what you think.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:00

Um, did you struggle with your purpose after retirement?

SPEAKER_00 1:57:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, I did. Uh, it took me a while, and I think what finally brought me around is when I got my my PI license and I started doing some PI work. Um, I think it was I I I did a few subcontracting things for Rocky Pipkin.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:26

And Rocky's a good guy, good detective, good agency. And uh he sent me out on some surveillance stuff. And I hate surveillance, I can't stand it. I did the same thing. Yeah. But he sent me out and I had a lot of time to think, and I thought, you know what, this is kind of cool. I'm still doing you know, I gotta keep my my head on a swivel. You know, there's a little bit of excitement here. I'm in a bad neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm okay now. Yeah, yeah. So, and it's pretty crazy that we have to be like that. Like, I go into the homeless camps now to get statements. I'm going into the freaking gang riddled neighborhoods, and now they're all handing me homicides right and left. So you're not in the best of places to get statements and all that stuff. That's for sure, dude. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta fall back on your training. And that feels good. Yeah. Well, and you know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:58:24

It's like, you know, I got to talk to you right when I got my PI license, and um seems like you like it. And you know what, and and God bless you, man, for for for what was the darkest moment during that transition?

SPEAKER_00 1:58:41

When one of my buds, who I well, I thought was my bud, another officer looked at me and said, Why'd you jump the fence? Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a dark moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:55

And it's a shame because and I I hope they have stopped doing this, but I remember in the academy, they drill this into you. These investigators that are working for the defense, they are dirt. Yeah, they are no good. They don't talk to them. Don't you tell your victims, don't talk to those guys, they'll lie to you, they'll do this, they'll do that. All they're trying to do is get that guy off. And it's not what made up the eye is.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:26

I tell you what happened to me, dude, and this was scary. I was doing some surveillance in Fresno, bad neighborhood. Fresno PD rolled up on me. And uh they're talking to me, and uh I said, hey guys, I just want to let you guys know I'm a private investigator. Um they go, Do you have a weapon? I said, Yes, I do. Um they drew down on me, dude. And pulled me out. And yeah, yeah. And uh, you know, I didn't lose my cool, right? But uh it's pretty weird looking down the barrel of a gun when you're not used to that. Right. And uh they didn't know the laws, and you know, and that's scary too. I think there needs to be more training about PIs, especially, you know, I have a CCW through my PD. Uh, I also have a or at the time I had an exposed carry permit where I could carry just like an officer. And uh remember the only thing that saved me a supervisor rolled up, and then they ended up um saying, Well, yeah, he hasn't committed any crime, and they let me go. Think how easily, if they didn't know the laws, yeah, I could have been in the back of a cop car and getting hooked. Sure. And um, and it's scary. I know uh Pinto said something his last episode where somebody said that he went to the dark side. He does a lot of criminal defense. I don't think it's the dark side. I think people are entitled to due process. I do like to see that. I would, you know, if I ever get in that and I need a good investigator, I want an investigator out there trying to do a good job for me.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:57

Um what I would tell him is you know, you're not out there to get this guy off, and you're not out there to take a guilty guy and make him look innocent. Yeah, we're not gonna alibi anybody. You're doing the exact same thing you did as a detective for the police department. You're looking for the truth. Yeah, the facts. And if the truth is that this was some sloppy police work and you guys didn't turn this stone over, it had you have you'd have seen this, um, then you're you're just getting the truth and reporting the truth.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:36

I will tell you this. You ought to watch Brian's episode. He recovered, he uncovered something major on a homicide, and it took the case and made it go a whole other direction. Yeah. Um was there a moment when you truly felt lost?

SPEAKER_00 2:01:54

Oh yeah. Yeah, there was there was more than a moment. There was a whole period of time where I I didn't know what I wanna I was gonna do. I really didn't. I felt lost because one, I was injured, so it wasn't like I could go work at a ranch somewhere, yeah. You know. Um two, I was never gonna go back to doing what I absolutely love doing.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:22

It's how long did that process take from from the time you left to get fully retired and and all that? Oh man, it's and that that's another thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:31

It's it's a difficult process. Yeah, it doesn't happen overnight. No, by golly, it takes forever. Was it a year or more? Over a year. Yeah, it took about two years to start the fact that we're gonna medically retire you. And they and the chief actually made sure that I got a pretty good deal. You know, I I got the medical retirement. Um, I had choices. I could have taken my time and done the you know, the CalPur's calculation and all that, or I could just take the medical and get a straight half tax-free the rest of my days. And that's what I went. And they made that available to me. So um, but you're the city itself, the the city manager at the time, who actually became Visalia's city manager, but the city manager at the time, him and I were bumping heads. I'm like, dude, I am not suing you. Oh, uh, was that uh what's his thing? Groom. Yeah, yeah. Randy. Randy. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:34

Um, no, I know when Gibby was going through his thing, uh, it, dude, it took four years from beginning to end. Yeah, dude, that's a long time to put people in limbo, dude. I mean I often I've often said this. Let's try to get this done any year. Yeah, and I mean, I understand there's gonna be, you know, either depositions or you know, medical stuff, but Jesus, making people wait a long time is I don't think it's beneficial to cities, it's not beneficial to the employees at all.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:04

Um I saw a sergeant buddy of mine recently that just he he'd been a cop from he's worked for big agencies, he worked for small agencies, and he's was a sergeant there at Exeter, and he was my buddy. I FTO'd him, and he's just a good, good guy. I often told the story that I didn't FTO him, you know, we were partners, yeah, and because he was that good when he came to us, and um, but he never missed a single hour of work in the 16 years that he had given to that agency, and he ran into a burning house to save a kid, scorched his lungs, got the kid out, saved his life, got a commendation for it, and then got denied an on-duty injury for the scorch because he couldn't breathe. He damaged his lungs for life.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:08

And see, that should never happen. No, yeah, it's like, hey man, you know what? We have to do stuff that the average person, when everybody's running out of the burning building, we're running in too running in. When people are shooting inside of a building, everybody's running out, we're running in. And you know what? I think people, uh, officers need to be taken care of. I don't care who you are. Yeah, um, you know, I know cities don't like to pay that money, but Jesus Christ, uh, none of us are supermen, right? And people need to be taken care of. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:40

Um, how did your faith play into that period?

SPEAKER_00 2:05:47

I think that I think that that God lifted me up during that time and kept me from going completely down and under you know, into the depression and all that stuff, which I went through all of those feelings and all those emotions when I came out of the service because I was injured in the service and put out medically, and I didn't want out. And so I kind of reverted back a little bit to that. Were you drinking during that time? I I wasn't drinking. Um, I was on pain medication. Yeah. Um, I didn't abuse it, but I didn't want to give it up either. Yeah, per cassette, bike it in stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I'm like, whatever. And but I think God kind of lifted me up and showed that I I was questioning. I was like, you know, you opened all those doors for me, made it so easy to get into this at a late, such a late time of my life. And now all of a sudden you slam that door. What is it you want from me? Why am I still here? What's going on? Yeah, you know, what'd you save me for? Yeah, and so my faith played a lot. It it got me thinking and questioning, and then I realized that there's a and my wife, bless her heart, she she showed me that there's light at the end of the thing. Oh, yeah, yeah. And and she basically she told me, Hey, you're retired, you don't have to work, don't work. Yeah. She's I think you like doing it. Yeah, I said, you know, you're right. You know, I like the the I like the courtroom, you know. I think at one time in my life I was an attorney or wanted to be, but I would tell you something, man.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:39

God bless guys like you who love it, because I too I did not like PI work. I I don't like criminal defense, I just don't. Um, did you ever feel guilt for basically getting hurt or just no longer serving? Was there ever a time where you're like, man, you know?

SPEAKER_00 2:08:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:01

Because I mean it wasn't your fault. It just seems like you got dealt a bad deck of cards during that time. But um, did you ever feel because I know some I've I've talked to some other cops that are like I feel guilty because I'm no longer out there. Right. Did you ever feel that?

SPEAKER_00 2:08:18

I did, I absolutely did. Um it is a guilt. Um, you're you hear about something happening, you know, big in town, or um I gotta tell you when I hear sirens, I feel guilty. Oh, yeah. Because I I'll be like, man, you hear that, honey? You know, there's a man, that's a pursuit. Yeah, you know what I mean? I'm like, it just feels like I should be out there doing it.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:48

You know what? I have felt that, you know, me and my wife will drive around. You know, we'll go by an apartment complex, there'll be six cop cars out there, and I'm like, man, I miss that. But you know what? You find yourself thrown up though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what? You know what's so funny about Visaya? It's such a revolving door. Oh yeah. Like, dude, I've only been gone five years. Dude, they do training in this building uh for Pinto's episode We Rolled Up Here and there was a bunch of guys out there. I only recognize three out of about 25 cops. Wow. It's just such a self-replicating thing that you know they're having a hard time just even hanging, you know, keeping up with the retirement. Sure. You know. Um what do people underestimate about forced retirement?

SPEAKER_00 2:09:40

I think a lot of people look down upon it, but they shouldn't. And I think that's where they underestimate the the effect it's gonna have on that officer. Yeah. I I they don't look at it like, hey, this wasn't his choice. Yeah. You know, and they should take that into account when they're dealing with an officer who's given his all. You know, if you've given 150% on every shift, which you should, I mean, you're not only for your sake, but your partners, you know, you're you're out there. It's not about making the PD look good. It's not about doing making cops look good. It's about who's on that shift with you and that everybody's gonna go home at the end of this shift.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:25

I tell you, I had a supervisor one time, you know. I, you know, he was chewing me out for I can't even remember, but I was like, man, I'm giving you 110%. And he goes, Maybe we don't want 110 from you. Maybe we only want 70. And I remember, man, it was such a gut punch, man, because you know, I was I wasn't just a good cop, I was an exceptional cop. And um it it was it's sad because you just see that the morale starts to dip. And um, you know, I I could tell you this for what you went through, brother, you know, and for the folks at home, uh Carrie is 69 years old, and you look like you age backwards, bro. You really do. You you you look great, dude. I appreciate you know what I mean. Um who were the people that helped you pull you through all that?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:18

Wife mostly, my wife mostly. My wife 150%. My wife, she really supported me through it all. Um, she helped keep my faith. Um my wife and God, you know, kept me kept me strong. And um my kids, my grandkids, oh my lord. Having grandkids, I'm gonna tell you what, yeah, it it is just like night and day. I love my grandkids. Do they live in Exeter as well? No, they live here in the live, okay. They live my son and his wife live uh live over there off of Liberty, I think it is. Yeah, Liberty. And you know, they They've got a little house, but she, my daughter-in-law, has just got her doctorate. Oh, wow. And her master's in uh pharmaceutical medicine. So we're making big butts. Yep. So now she's working for um what is the uh CBS. Okay. And um she's a floater, and I mean, it's like they finally made it. And but we went through I think it was like six years of her going through school, raising four kids, going to full-time university. Um my son working full-time for ride aid, he's he's a pharmaceutical tech. Okay. Um, and right now he's just enjoying his time off because ride aid went out of business. I just saw that.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:48

Yeah, and I hated that because, dude, I love ride aid. That was my pharmacy for all those years. Yeah, I used to go to the one on uh Walnut and Acres. Yeah, and dude, when it closed, I'm gonna tell you something, dude. It I was I was bummed out. Yeah, and I've I've been going there for 20 something years.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:04

Um how long did it take before you stop defining yourself as a cop? I still define myself as a cop.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:14

Me too. I don't think you ever stop. Yeah, I think you we'll always have that part of us that we're here to help. Yeah. You know, yeah, and we have that ability to empathize with somebody because we know what you're about to go through, dude. Yes, you know, we've been there, we we put people in your position. So it's not only the victims that you empathize for, but the the dirt bags.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:43

I have a about you know, and I've often said this. I was born to be in service of others, and I think you were too. Yes, you know what I mean. There's just uh um, I think um Daniel Roberts said it. There's something I think we just have a servant's heart, and um which I I totally think. I I just you know, I was born to do this as you were too. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, um what did rebuilding your identity look like?

SPEAKER_00 2:14:14

I didn't know how I didn't know what I was gonna do. I I went through um when I finally realized I I gotta get a job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was I think the hardest thing. Um and working with people in the norm, you know, you you're I was in an office full of people over here that were doing military logistics and oh yeah, civilians, yes, all civilians, and there's like this office was about 35, 40 people in it. And um I worked for one section over here, and and there was me and my buds that they ended up being very good friends. But there's people that have they don't have a clue. Oh, big time. They have no not a clue. And and there was one gal that filed a legit um uh complaint about me because she knew I was wearing a gun. I didn't wear it exposed, but I was she says, You were a cop, huh? I go, yeah, because you were probably wear a uh concealed weapon, don't you? I said, Yeah. So and then there was a lot of people in that office didn't even know that I was a cop, um, which didn't really bother me, but it was like, you guys don't know what the hell you're talking about. Oh, big time. Oh, you know, it's it's I will tell you something, bro.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:45

I thought I wanted to be a school teacher. Yeah, dude, they did not like me because of what I did.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:53

And um, I look back on it now, and um, you know, I should have had my head examined for even doing that, but I stuck I stuck with it and I got my master's and credential, bro. But that's not my calling, brother. Right. And and um just trying to be around those people, um, far left liberal, most of them. Yeah, um, that's not how I think. And um, I just remember going, you know what, Jay? Uh, you don't belong here.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:21

And you know, that's it's hard to have to admit. Um, but um, you know, things happen. This is my calling. This is where I'm supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:31

And and you're very good at it.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:33

Well, I appreciate that. Um did you ever fear you'd lost your purpose permanently?

SPEAKER_00 2:16:41

Oh, sure. Sure. I think anybody who goes out prematurely or um against their will, so to speak, they have that feeling. Oh, yeah. You know, uh it's it's like you've got to find it, it takes a long time to figure out what your drive is again, um, what your purpose is. And yeah, I felt that way. I felt like I I lost complete direction.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:11

I also too carry you're old enough. You've drawn your social security as well. Yeah, suit, man. You probably got more money than you know what to do with, dude. Um there was a where was the turning point when things started to shift? Was that when you started doing PI work that that kind of got you out of the pretty much?

SPEAKER_00 2:17:32

Yeah, when I um that that really brought me up. I mean, I got busy. I got I was doing too many cases because I it was just too much to do. I I was almost like a job.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:47

Yeah, no, I was gonna say, and you, Pinto, Julian, you guys are busy, busy PIs. And uh God bless you, man. I mean, you know what? I want you to be as busy as you want, bro. But the problem with that work is uh one case drops, you got five coming at you, man. And um, you know, there just comes a point in time, and I was glad I tried it because I'll never have to know because I know helping helping people uh that are going through um any type of case and criminal defense is just not my jam, dude. Yeah, I I dude, I had some homicide cases where I was like, dude, I do not want this person out. I am not gonna use my skills to help these people.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:36

That was the hard part for me. Yeah. Um how did you reconcile reconcile pride in your service with all the pain that you had to go through to to, you know as it ended? That must have been hard because every time I've known you, you know, and even now, man, I mean, you're a very prideful dude. So am I. Absolutely. And um, you know, um, I know I had to go through a lot. Um this is gonna sound like braggadocious, man, but uh I was better at it the most, man. And and you know what, bro? Um when I was walking away, I at least had I at least had this in me. 25 years, and I could go, all right, Jay, you're turning 50 today, and this is it.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:29

And uh, you know, man, my retirement check is robust enough that I I don't have to work if I don't want to, right? Which feels really good. Right. And I know I'm at the point of my life where I don't have to do stuff I don't want to do. And that feels good. Um, you know, I'm at the point too where I just say no. I mean, hey, if people ask me to do stuff and I don't want to do it, yeah. No, you know, yeah. This is where my skills have brought me. This is where I'm supposed to be. I just wrote my first book, I'm writing my second book. That's where I that's I guess the best word I could say it. That's where I feel God. Yeah, that's where I feel I think I'm providing a service to people like yourself by doing this.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:18

You are.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:18

I think that there's people in Tulare County, their stories need to be told. Absolutely. That's what I'm trying to do. Um what lessons did suffering teach you that the job never could?

SPEAKER_00 2:20:36

That internal um fortitude, you know, that you to pick yourself up and keep going. I mean, there were times I'd lay in the hospital and feel really sorry for myself. There was a part uh during the um when they were doing catheters, uh, it was a painful process. They chased clots up through my legs and so forth. And I I had to lay at a about a 25% angle with my head down, my legs up in between each treatment. And I'm talking like I was in there in the ICU for I think it was 19 days, and during that 19 days, about 12 of them were treatment, chasing those clouds, and it was like torture. I was like, why do we have waterboarding? We got a cath lab.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:35

No, did they are you are you fully healed?

SPEAKER_00 2:21:38

And I'm I am good. I have to take um, I have to give myself shots every morning of uh it's like heparin, it's uh called Fond of Perinux, and it's a blood thinner.

SPEAKER_03 2:21:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:50

I have to wear this medical to uh give people a high sign that I'm on blood thinners in case I'm laying out there with a death. Yeah, what caused all that? Is it hereditary or no? My they think it was hereditary. They found a clotting disorder. My mother died of a blood clot. Okay, so it might have might have been hereditary then. It could very well be hereditary. And um, but they they weren't able to identify it other than it started with that injury. Got it. And um it started as a DVT, a big clot down in my leg that I didn't know I had until it broke apart, and then it started little clots started going everywhere, and my body was riddled with blood clots. Dude, yeah, you're lucky you ain't dead then. Yeah, I really am.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:40

Um, how do you now view sacrifice differently than you did while you were serving?

SPEAKER_00 2:22:49

I never felt like I was sacrificing other well, no, I take that back. I sacrificed a lot of time I should have been spending with my grandkids and my family.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:00

Yeah, our family, our families take a back seat, bro. Yeah, they just do. And you know what? Whether we all want to realize it or not, you know, I missed a lot of birthdays, a lot of Christmases, a lot of uh things. And I look back on it now, and I think uh, you know, my first wife, um, she was trying to wrap her head around it the best she could. But I can honestly say this, my wife now, I really wish I had been with her this whole time. Right. Because um I don't have um the stress. And you know, me and my wife, we we don't argue, we don't have drama in our home. My home is very calm. And dude, I I just I love it. You know, last night we're on the couch, my wife gets up, she has to go to work. She works in Fresno, she gets up at 4:45. You know, we're on the couch last night watching movies with our dogs, and at my home is just chill, bro. Right. I didn't have that in my first marriage, and that was a problem. And I realize now that um not everybody can be married to a cop. Yes, right. Uh it it really puts a strain on on relationships. It does. So uh what does service look like for you today, brother?

SPEAKER_00 2:24:16

Service as in you're still you're I'm you're still providing a service. I am. It it's uh it looks like I am finally seeing a point of no service. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I it's time to serve me and my family and my wife. Um, she gave up so much during all those years of uh we didn't go places. Yeah. Because you're you're on duty, or you were gonna be, or you know, we couldn't. I there was so many family functions I missed, and uh kids' birthdays, like you were saying, and Christmases and holidays. So I think it's time. My service looks like serving the Lord and serving my wife, and um I have always had a dream because there's always that cowboy in me. Always since I was a little kid, always wanted to be a cowboy. I lived the cowboy life. I I absolutely love ranching. I love horses and cattle. And do you own horses now? I don't, I couldn't I don't anymore, and that I missed that. We had a ranch outside of Exeter up until um uh hell, I was a cop even then. Um because we used to have our our association barbecues out at my ranch, and um but we I think when did I move? 2004 is when we came into town. Became a city slicker, huh? Became a city slicker and can't stand it, bro. Can't stand it. Well, both my wife and I grew up on ranches, yeah. And um when I met her, we were working cattle on her uncle's uh 68,000 acre cattle ranch that he was managing. Yeah, it was enormous, and we loved it. Where was that at? That was in a little town called Pinoch. It's in the that um New Idra can't uh area. It's between five and the 101. Okay. Is that pinnacle mountain range? Yes, yes. It's in the pinnacles. Okay, and it's beautiful rolling hills, and there's some big hills, and then there's the old New Idra silver mines out there, the or the quick silver mines, Mercury mines. Yeah. And um it's so that's we were out in the middle of nowhere and loved it.

SPEAKER_01 2:26:50

Um, for you, I mean, do you still stay connected to uh any of the guys from the old days, any of the old cops?

SPEAKER_00 2:26:57

I still stay connected. Um no, not really. Yeah, not really. I wouldn't say connected. I I still uh chat with uh my buddy the sergeant that got he went up north and back up into the mountains where he wanted to be. What sergeant was that? Uh Mark Durkey.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:18

Okay, yeah. I would tell you something. Um there's about a half a dozen guys from the PD I still keep in contact with, man. But dude, out of all the guys I worked with, there's five of them that I still talk to. Yeah. Now I run into I got a I got a lot of acquaintances. Right. But I got very few friends from the PD, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:42

Um Robert's one of those, uh Gilson.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:45

Yeah, he should be close to getting returned. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:48

He's been in there as long as I've been around.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:50

So I think he's back on a motorcycle the last time. I heard he was back in traffic, yeah. Yeah. So um what advice would you give officers currently struggling with injury or even burnout?

SPEAKER_00 2:28:05

Take care of yourself. Yeah. Take care of yourself. Um don't wait until those decisions are being made for you. Yeah. You know, you you've got to come come to a realization that it's time for you to think of another option. Correct. But make it your option. Yeah. Don't don't let the PD dictate or mandate when it's gonna end, and don't let the injury take over um you have to accept things the way they are.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:40

Yeah. No, that's that's a good way to put it because I've actually said that to somebody. I know you want it one way, but it ain't that way. It's just not that way. Yeah. Um what would you say to someone being forced out of a career that they truly love?

SPEAKER_00 2:29:03

Well, I would tell them that it's not the end of you the your life as you know it. Correct? It's the beginning of a new life.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:19

So it's so hard, especially for cops, to form that new identity. Big time. And to shove all that, you know, we're here to help. And uh, you know, we run into the burning building. Uh it's it's hard to put all that away.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:37

It is. And you know what? I recently was talking to a guy that I truly love, and me and him did a lot of crazy stuff together. And I told him one day, I said, listen, bro, you had your time. Now it's over. Now it's somebody else's turn to pick up the mantle and carry it. Yeah. Now it's time for you. Go be happy. Whatever that will and whatever that looks like for you. Because it looks like something different for each of us. Absolutely. Um how did you find peace with a story that it that it that didn't end the way that you planned? What finally gave you, like, okay, it's over.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:19

I'm at peace now. How did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 2:30:21

Um looking back on on everything during my career, there was things that I didn't even realize that I can now take a lot of pride in. Um, not being, and I I I give it a lot to my life experiences when I started, because I started so late.

SPEAKER_03 2:30:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:46

I had a lot of life experience. I'd been, I would had matured, and there's a lot of young guys that come in very immature. It's a slap in their face to see um a guy with no head. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. They're like, oh, they're gonna be traumatized the rest of their born days, because they but I think the more mature you are, the more life experience you had, the more reality you have experienced. I totally agree. You're going to be able to survive.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:21

Yeah, I I became a cop at 27, and I think it was invaluable because I think the 21-year-old Jay would have had problems. And I think that by the time I came on, I was already uh a little bit more hip to the game. You know what I mean? Um what role does gratitude play in your life right now?

SPEAKER_00 2:31:45

It's uh it's a huge role. I I thank I I I didn't know who to thank at first. And now I thank God. Yeah. And my wife and um my friends like you. I I I you know, for um there for a long time, you go around thinking uh nobody noticed. I was just a flash in the pan. Yeah. And then somebody will say, Hey man, I remember when you did this, or I remember when you did that. And that's that makes me feel good.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:14

Um I will tell you something, you know what? I am I have a lot of gratitude for this. I gotta I have gratitude with the way I was raised because I come from very humble beginnings. It made me a warrior young. I am very grateful with the career I had, and I'm grateful for the life that I live now and uh because I'm at peace, bro, and I think I spent a lot of years not at peace.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:44

So I'm very, very grateful for that. Um how do you define strength today compared to when you very first started the job?

SPEAKER_06 2:32:56

Um I think I find strength in in the end results.

SPEAKER_03 2:33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:10

You know, um seeing that big picture. Yeah, looking at the whole picture, not just the fact that it ended, or not just the fact that uh you're not doing something you wanted to do the rest of your life. It it's looking at the entire sequence and and taking on the you and giving yourself credit. Yeah, you gotta give yourself credit. You made it, you made it through, you're alive. Yeah. You know, there was times when you didn't know if you were gonna be alive or make it. 100%, bro.

SPEAKER_01 2:33:44

100%. You know, I I think for me too, um I think back when I started this, I was like strength for me was being able to kick ass and take names. And I think strength now is um Is truly helping people. He's using my strength, my intellect, uh is to help people. And, you know, um, people call me a lot when they get their butt in a sling. And um I I say this and and I get a little emotional when I say it, but I never pass up a chance to help somebody because I think that's what I was born to do. And um, you know, uh uh when I very first got with my wife, she was like, Man, you why why does everybody have to call you, or why do you have to do this, or why do you have to explain it to, you know, explain the situation to somebody? And I set her down one day and I said, This is what I was born to do. People feel comfortable calling me. And I'm gonna use my my intellect, I'm gonna use my experience to help people when I can. Absolutely. Because if I was that person, I would have wished that there would have been a me. And I didn't have a me when I was going through those hard times. Um What does brotherhood mean to you now, brother?

SPEAKER_00 2:35:02

I run a recovery program um for the church, have been for years. And even when I was still an active police officer. And for me, brotherhood right now is seeing people succeed to get through their hurts, habits, hangups, whatever it is, and seeing them well again.

SPEAKER_01 2:35:24

See, I didn't even know this about you, dude. That that you're doing that, man. And you know what? God bless you, dude. Anything you know this there's something about guys like us that if we can do something like that that helps others that are struggling with addiction or whatever it is going on in their life, man, dude, that's that's a great thing, Carrie. It really is, dude.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:46

It is it feels good to be able to help somebody, especially if you've been there, done that, and you can say, Look, I I was like that. They would be like, You? Yeah, no way. No, I was. Yeah, yeah. And and you can be this way too, but you've got to see the big picture and you gotta work through it, and you gotta put your trust and faith in the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 2:36:09

Yeah. There was a lot of years as a cop. I put a lot of people in jail for under the influence or possession, and you know, it's a it's a real epidemic, bro. Oh, it's bad, and it is bad, and you know, I think anything that's gonna get people off of this, you know, especially the methamphetamine through the fentanyl now, dude. It's scary, bro. It is scary. Um, how has your view of God changed through all of this?

SPEAKER_00 2:36:39

It's just made my my beliefs stronger, it's made my faith stronger. It's um it's kind of like the proof in the pudding.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:49

You know, it's the it's what that I made it through all these trials and tribulations and hurts and hangups and all that stuff. And I'm I'm coming into the last chapter. Yeah. I mean, I'm an older guy, and I gotta accept the fact that, hey, before I could say, well, when I get done being a cop for 30 years, I'm gonna jump into a ranching again, or just yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I just got I'm just happy being me. Yeah. And I think that's that's where my faith and my self has become a lot stronger. Now, how old did your dad live to be? My dad died young. Um, he died, I've lived past my dad now. I think he was 66 or 67.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:41

And he died of um a liver disease that was sitting there dormant in his liver from his when he was a child. Oh, gotcha. Eating horrible food and and starvation and famine. It's kind of like a hep C type thing that lays dormant. And uh then he and I'm I still I could go really south and and look at the conspiracy theory with my dad because he was the head of research and development for the whole U.S. Defense Department. Wow. And he was in the Pentagon, and he was making a bunch of trips to China uh towards the end, and he came, stopped at my ranch in Salinas once on his way back from China, had the worst stomach aches. I mean, like horrid. I wanted to take him to the hospital, and he said, no, just leave me alone. Wow. And I often thought, you know, with that with COVID coming out of China, yeah, and all those that uh uh Fauci and all those guys that were doing that crap. Um I often thought, hey, my dad got poisoned by whatever it was they were researching.

SPEAKER_01 2:38:56

You know what there might I tell you something, man. When I was in the military, I had a buddy of mine, he worked on um radar and he ended up getting brain cancer and died from it. And good dude, man. And and I often think, oh, I gotta believe that that some of that radar had something to do with it. You know, you're we're just dealing with stuff that is not made for the human body, you know what I mean? Exactly. Um if you could sit across from a young cop right now, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_00 2:39:33

Stay human. Yeah. Stay human. Don't don't get so callous and so cold that everything is just uh policy and procedure. Yeah. You know, be a human being, have some empathy for the people you're dealing with. Um, because you whatever contact you have with anybody, it's gonna be for you, it's your job. It's just something that you're gonna come in contact like that a hundred times a day. But for that person you're coming in contact with, it's their life.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:08

I tell you something, you know what, man? Me and some of my partners we used to say some of the weirdest shit. Yeah. And and we used to laugh a lot, but you realize it was a defense mechanism for us. And it did, it kept us grounded where I think too many guys internalize this job too much, and I think it becomes toxic to the soul, yeah, and it toxic to people. And you got you can't take it so serious all the time. Right. And I think that that was my weapon, dude, that I could laugh at the worst situations.

SPEAKER_00 2:40:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:45

Um, maybe wasn't always the most uh professional, but I sure kept me absolutely it kept me grounded and it kept me as gallows humor.

SPEAKER_00 2:40:53

Big time, yeah, big time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:55

Um what do you hope listeners, especially other officers, take away from your story?

SPEAKER_00 2:41:03

What I hope they take away?

SPEAKER_01 2:41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:07

I hope they take away that um that there is that it won't destroy you.

SPEAKER_03 2:41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:17

There is life after cop. There is. And it's uh it's sometimes it doesn't feel like it when you first uh separate from that career that you had, but there's there is life after you're done with this career. I agree. What gives you hope today? Um seeing my my grandkids grow. Yeah. That's gotta be cool. Yeah. How old are they now, brother? I've got a 13, 12, uh, eight, and six, seven, seven.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:57

So God bless your kids, man. Dude, that's a lot to take off, bro. That is. Uh what does moving forward mean to you now, brother?

SPEAKER_00 2:42:09

I really I'm dreaming of a another ranch out in somewhere that's maybe not 68,000 acres. Uh, that's a lot of work. Yeah, it's too much work. Uh, but somewhere where my wife and I can just like watch the sunset and hear a few cows mooing. And so what are you gonna pack it in at 70?

SPEAKER_01 2:42:30

What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 2:42:30

I'm thinking, yeah. I think 70 is gonna be my magic number. Okay. I think I'm gonna go in a different direction at 70.

SPEAKER_01 2:42:38

Good for you. Yeah, and uh finally, if the badge is gone, but the man remains, who are you today?

SPEAKER_00 2:42:51

I'm still me, but I'm a lot more experienced than me. Yeah, life experience. And uh I think before before cop and after cop, I still like the fact that I'm I hope that I'm still the same guy. Yeah, but boy, we've seen a lot of shit. Yes, we have, and we survived it, yeah. And I think uh street survival's real.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:27

It is, and you know what, man? Um I really worry, I see a lot of these young kids now, man, and and I'm not gonna lie, sometimes I see them, and there's a part of me, Carrie, I feel sorry for them.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:42

Uh, because um, you know this, uh, rough days are coming first for a lot of these people. And um well, we'll go ahead and wrap it up. All right. Um, I just wanted to tell you this. Um, I've always respected you. Um, I like you. I've always liked you. Um, you have this father figure way about you. Um, I wish you nothing but continued happiness and health. I think you deserve it. I think you did a long career. You're a good man. Well, folks, we're gonna wrap up, and I'll leave you guys with a quote: You will see humanity at its worst and still be expected to show it at its best. So, uh, anyways, pick up a copy of my book. It's on Amazon. It's called Welcome to the Show That Never Ends. Uh I'm gonna be having some t-shirts coming out pretty quick. Um, I'll I'll get those on Amazon. And then uh my second book, it's called Welcome to the No, it's the emotional toll of the show. I just finished it, it'll be done by about uh June-ish. Um, but anyways, uh I appreciate you guys watching. Uh, hit that like button, hit that subscribe button. Uh good luck, God bless, and Godspeed. Thank you.