Women in Industry #3: Cora Lynn Heimer Rathbone

Diversity and inclusivity are vital for the industry's growth, acknowledging the crucial importance of promoting gender diversity and inclusivity.

Hosted by Marie Tyler and powered by OrangeDoor, in partnership with IPSA and DARE - the Women In Industry series shines a spotlight on the journeys, perspectives and impact of women across the industry.

Episode 3: Cora Lynn Heimer Rathbone

Do You Trust Me? The Secret Formula Behind Real Trust

A thought-provoking discussion on how trust is built and applied in both professional environments and everyday life.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:28

So you and I have never met in person before today. We had a conversation. You completely opened my eyes to this fantastic concept that you have that we'll tuck into in a moment around trust. And also for the purpose of our visual theme, so I'm gonna pop on your lovely visual that you have as well for them to attain to our conversation. But before we tuck into that, is it okay for you to give our listeners and our viewers just a quick insight to who you are?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Oh, who I am. So I'm Coralin Heimer Rathburn, born in Cuba. I'm a Guantanamera. So if you've ever heard the song Guantanamera, that's me. Left with the revolution, grew up in the American Virgin Islands, St. Thomas, three miles by 10 miles. Lived in Brazil for a year, learned Portuguese, upstate New York for my first degree, met my husband in Paris, now six months at the Sorvone. Got married, I did my MBA and then qualified as a chartered management accountant whilst working for a subsidiary in Bremo Oil. Started as financial analyst. Within 18 months, I was in head office as head of planning. 25, the next youngest was 47. I was the only female on board. Had our daughter at a time when childcare in the UK was challenging. So as a professional woman, wanting to be a woman, wanting to be a mother, and at the same time challenged by childcare, I made a choice. I left that city of MOL, started my own consultancy so I could keep my skills alive whilst my daughter was growing up. And when she went to university, she went to Oxford. I joined Cranfield School of Management as an executive development director and won and started working with people like EDF, Electricité de France, L'Oréal, Orange France Telecom, Sellafield, British Nuclear. So really broad range of clients. Was there seven years, became head of executive education at Aston Business School, and then one of ten global partners in Oliver Wyman in the people sphere. Joined Rathbun Results in 2015, having worked globally with some amazing artists, I could go on, with some amazing companies. I was intrigued about the fire safety and security sector. You look at the Maslow Triangle, second rung of security. This is a sector that nobody hears about, full of absolutely amazing people who are self-made, come up through operations, be an engineer, became a team leader, suddenly find themselves a hops manager. How do I know? What do I know about people? How do I sell? How do I build trust with people? How do I work with Marie? How does Marie work with me in a way that helps you grow, helps me grow, in a context of trust, but edgy trust. So we're not just complacent and happy. It's not a country club. We're striving for performance and excellence. But an environment where we're supportive of each other. Even when we challenge, it's a challenge from a point of support. So that we can be better, so we can be excellent. Excellence is not an end point, it's a continuous journey. So my journey has been one of finance, strategy, people, and at Rathbone Results we work across the intersection of people, process, technology. Because business is about people working together through processes underpinned by technology.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Amazing. Oh thank you. You think she's reading a script, but that came naturally.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Because it's um it's systemic. Every business in the world has people. Even when we get to the point where an AI runs a business, or it's a business just full of AIs with AI running it, somebody's got to maintain that AI. Somebody's got to upgrade. You will say AI will upgrade itself. Right. Yes, to a point. We're not there yet.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

Not there yet. Definitely not. Um so do you trust me? The secret formula behind trust. Thank you. Love that. Thank you. Tell us about this.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

So fundamentally, every company we go into, um, it's do you know can we trust each other to grow this business, to scale it up? Can we trust our people to start new operations in new countries? Can we trust them from the poor and then you ask the question well what does trust mean to you, Marie? Sure. So what does trust mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Oh, it's a warm, fuzzy feeling for me. I like to uh I like to feel trusted, um, but uh but to trust other people, I suppose in a in a business environment, it it can be uh a high-stakes situation sometimes. And tell me, how long does it take for you to trust someone? Oof. I'm probably too trusting actually, to be completely honest, so it doesn't take too long. But I I usually I suppose if you're in person with somebody, it would be quicker for me to bond with somebody uh versus a virtual situation. So I'm very much an in-person kind of person.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Interesting word you use bond. Let me ask you one more how how long does it take for you to lose trust? I mean that can happen in a moment. In the moment.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

It could. So it takes time? Time to bond, but uh it can be broken quickly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

So I try to depersonalise it because most people when they talk about trust talk about bond. It's wonderful, we're humans. And emotions, we're humans. But I like to think, can we because when somebody says to you, I don't trust you, what does that do to you? But you're the defense a little, doesn't it? Yeah. How do you recover from that? So in 2008 I came across a formula. I'm an accountant, I like formulas. Uh a formula for building and maintaining trust. And so when somebody says, Corlin, I don't trust you, I can say after the first cry, okay, um, can I unpack that? Because there are four factors that contribute to trust. So let me play it with you. Um, I was um I was uh governor at a primary school, and the vice chair of the board of governors said to me at one point, Brillin, we've lost trust in you. What have I done? So I said, can I have a coffee with you to unpack this? Yeah, sure. So I said, so let's use this trust formula, which I use with clients on a regular basis. Because I want to help people build trust and I want to help people restore trust when it's broken. So four components. Three at the top of an equation, one at the bottom, it's a division. And we know that anything in the denominator of an equation, one divided by one is one.

unknown 8:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

So it's start asking me lots of massive questions. Right. Well, we're okay with that one, we're rolling. So if if if at the bottom of the equation we have something called um SI, which stands for self-interest. So if my interest in myself is equal to my interest in others and in the business, that's one. That's okay. It doesn't erode, it doesn't augment trust, it's it's equalized, it's equal. So the first question is to this colleague, do you feel I'm coming at this with self-interest? My role in the governors, in the board of governors is coming. Can we park that for a little bit? Because I'm not sure, okay? Park that. Let's look at the top of the equation. But by the way, if my interest in myself is greater than my interest in others and in the business, then it's greater than one. It's let's say it's two. One divided by two is not. It's half. Then break it, break it. One divided by two is half. So if my interest in myself is greater than my interest in others, it erodes trust. If my interest in myself is less than my interest in others, so I work the extra hours, I go the extra mile. I do things that nobody's asked me to do because I see they're the right things to do. So, example, 0.5. You know, my my interest in myself is half my interest in the business. One divided by 0.5 is two. Right. So it if it's if my self-interest is lower than my interest in others, it multiplies trust. So what really builds trust? Three things. When you're hiring people, we look at CDs. We look, do they have the right qualifications? Do they have the right qualifications? Uh do they have the right experience? So to my vice chair of governors, I said, Do you feel I'm not qualified or I don't have the right credentials or experience to be uh on the board as head of finance? No, no, you've got the experience, Perlin. Absolutely, we trust you for that. Good. Thank you, tick. C plus R, R for reliability. Do you think I'm unreliable? I say something, but I don't do it, I don't turn up, I'm not prepared. Um, my actions don't match my words. No, Perlin, you're very you're very reliable. Okay, great. Tick-tick. I'm for intimacy. For intimacy. Yes. Can we have a talk, Marie, you and I? And even though there's noise all around us, we can each other. We can be in our bubble. Can we have a coffee and enjoy each other's company? Do I trust that if I if I say something to you in public, but you know, in private, if I say something to you, you'll hold it to yourself. You won't go and say, ooh, can't imagine what Corland said to me just now. So intimacy. Competence plus reliability plus intimacy makes for trust. You said bond, I bond, that's intimacy. Some people don't do intimacy. They say at work that doesn't belong because that leads to nepotism. I don't want to be giving the job to someone I like just because I like them. That's true. But usually we don't trust people we don't like. So when there is liking, we tend to trust people more. We've got to be careful that that doesn't sway our decision. It's a piece of it, but it shouldn't be the other thing. You've got it. Right. Beautifully put, Marie. So, trust. So I said to my vice chair, I said, so you think I'm competent, you think I'm reliable. Is this are you enjoying being with me? Yeah, do you feel safe in this, psychologically safe in this space? Actually, I do, Corolline. So why don't you trust me? I think it's that self-interest piece. Okay. Nice. Can you tell me what I've done that shows up as self-interest? You keep bringing in these KPIs, Corolline. That you know, different schools doing, you know, in terms of spend on salaries. If you've ever been involved in primary school, 70, between 78 and 79, 80% of the total cost of the school is the salary. There's very little wiggle room. And so, and I said to this vice chair, why do you think I'm bringing up these ratios? I don't know, Corlin. I don't know what your your message is. My message is we've got to be careful with how many we're hiring, the salaries we're paying, we've got to benchmark our salaries. Because we don't have wiggle room. Is that self-interest? He said, Well, putting it that way, no, Corlin, it's interest in us.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

He said, so his assumption was that way, but without understanding reason.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

So as having unpacked it, I said, so where do we stand? He said, I think we've got you wrong, and I think I owe you an apology. I said, that's okay, but can we go and unpack this with the team? Don't worry, Corlin, I'll handle this. To take, so it's beautiful because it goes to behaviors instead of character. So if you trust me or if you don't trust me, or you trust a colleague or you don't trust a colleague, can we focus on the behaviour, not the person?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

I would say when I um when I first started my career at 15 as an apprentice, um that was I I think back to how heavily influenced I was by because of course being young coming in, I would have And the beautiful woman. Well, I don't know about that. Uh great makeup. Uh but anyway, I would have taken the word of someone else because, of course, you know, young, vulnerable, you know, in headlights a little, led by whoever tells me in the senior role, oh don't trust that person, or oh no, you can trust them. And you would just take that word because that's what someone was senior was saying. But actually, on reflection going back, there was one incident in particular where that had happened, and actually the person I was told, well, actually kind of influenced to not even like the person, yeah, I'd never even spoken to. I by the way, now I'm actually very good friends with, and she tells the story from her perspective about how scared she was of me because I was so cold towards her because I'd been given this misconception, a message about her that was actually untrue anyway. Yeah, um, and actually, yeah, so so so knowing this and being equipped with this problem is so powerful to say, and that's okay to take input from others, but actually, this is a really great way of making a more informed decision. Yeah, and then having that the wit to do as you say, uh, if perhaps it is a negative outcome, then go and unpack it and make sure that you've understood actually.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

So I work with CEOs and boards all over the world. Um, one of my co-chees is head of Asia Pacific for an 8 billion US headquartered company. His response, he's responsible for about 1.6 billion. And he had an issue with members on his team. He said, trust is broken. So I said, okay, would you give me 10 minutes of your time in this call to unpack that using the trust equation? It might take more than 10 minutes, but let's try and go fast. Four members of his team plus himself. Let's name them. Let's rate each one on a scale of one, two, or three, one low, three high. On credit competence, reliability, intimacy, self-interest. Self-interest, you want it to be one, max. All the others you want to be three. So you can know then, and he said, what's the end goal here, Boyler? Great question. For you to know what you need to work on with each of them, if you're going to rebuild trust at an individual and a team level. So let's go for it. It took 20 minutes. It was incredibly powerful. Yeah. Because he then went on and said, I this, and the next time we spoke, I'm working on this with so and so, I'm working with this and so and so. Corlin, I've shared this with the team. Because he was saying, you can't show this to anyone. Don't tell anybody we've done this, Corlin. He shared it with the team. It created dialogue, open, created transparency. Shared cares as well. Yeah, yeah. But it became an adult-to-adult conversation. Because what happened for you as a young person was that whatever was said you don't trust them created a bias against that person that became subconscious. At first it was conscious, then became subconscious, and then became a barrier. You won't bust through barriers. There are enough challenges competitively in our world. There are enough challenges economically. We're in the business of improving the UK's productivity performance. Why? Because the UK punches above its weight and should, and the world is fractured and fractious. And not only in the UK, we work across the globe, but we're based here. So how can we increase trust so people can get over that work through that barrier to actually focus on what makes us productive, what makes us competitive, what's our differentiating value proposition? What do our clients need from us? Right. And then how why should they trust us? Competence, reliability, intimacy. How do we show interest in the client? That noise is out there, right? I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

I've kind of it's become part of me now.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

How would you take this and use it?

SPEAKER_01 18:40

I mean when I think about because I I work in different areas right now, lots of different things, and I as you were talking, I was picturing an opportunity actually. I've got our Code of Grove and Orange Store actually is going to be with me in a minute, and I'm going to suggest that this would be a great approach with our clients actually. And we've been talking about how we best maybe not a full-on partner program per se, but we need some sort of measurable that helps us to yes grow the client but also help to establish that connection and continue that because I think it doesn't happen once, it's a continuous thing, isn't it, that needs to be reviewed. Yes. I think it'd be very powerful for me personally. I would absolutely like to use that with our clients. Great.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

And some clients are transactional. Sure. All they want to know is are you competent, are you reliable, and will you look after my my interest? Yeah? Don't want a relationship. Other clients are very relational to intimacy.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

And I think in an events type company in which that is, it's all about that because you have their brand in your hand like a baby. Yes. And you're putting it on display, and if something goes wrong, they're the ones that look bad. So yeah, I think all three will be very powerful in that scenario. So yes. Thank you. Good. Um, right. This is I mean, I think is mind-blowingly, even though it's it's you've made it uh sound so simple. Um it isn't. It it actually it there's so many layers to it, so powerful. Um and as I say, I'll I'll share the visual as well because I did find when you and I spoke before, it actually really helps to have something to see as well to go with it. Is there any other tip or advice or anything else you'd like to add before before we close out today? And I I say this not just for women, but you mentioned earlier on around um perhaps the security industry, and a lot of the women I've been talking to, we're trying to make sure that we attract fresh talent into the industry. Yeah. Any any words of wisdom from you I would greatly share?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Uh I think this industry is made for women, and women are made for this industry because we don't want to be sexist, but we're the ones who have the children. Uh, if you look back anthropologically at cavemen, cavewomen, it was generally because the women had the children and breastfed, yes, physically had to ground themselves. Bear it. Ground themselves. And you think nothing more vulnerable than a baby at the breast can be a baby at the breast. You can't be hunting for the next piece of food with a baby. Well you can, but actually so traditionally it's the men who hunt, and it's the women who care, protect it. When the men were out hunting, these women had to not only eat feeding the baby, but security. Where am I? Antenna for the threats, mom and dad. I love it. I love it. So this industry, women, we understand. I'm not saying men don't. But we there is a natural instinct there. There's a natural instinct for protecting. What is security? What is fire? It's about protecting. Protecting assets, people, uh, things we care about, things that make us a society. Than that, the material things that make us society, but the ones we love. Um, you think of Grenfell, it wasn't the assets that were lost that people were devastated with, it was the lies. So women are made for this industry and this industry for women. I I see security women, and I just think bravo. Because it isn't just about physical strength, it's about being able to talk through a dangerous situation and um disarm, not through weapons and not through brute force, but disarm by understanding what's in the psyche. I think I am not a security guard. I can I'm I'm not pretending to understand what they do and don't. But I can imagine a woman being, because we don't have, I mean, I'm four foot eleven and a half inches tall. There's there's not, you know, and these the guys in this industry tend to be six foot, six foot two, six foot four. Yeah, okay. But imagine a woman coming into a situation. There is there, it's a threat. It diffuses. I love seeing women in this sector. Also, there's a difference. There aren't that many of us in it, so you you are a differentiating factor. So come on in. Come on in. Yeah, huge opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

I love that. Well, yes, please come on in. We need more of you. Um this has been amazing, thank you so much. And uh yeah, I hope you're Marie, you're doing great work. Oh, thank you so much. This won't be the last time we speak. Yeah, I'm sure. Happy days. Thank you. Thank you.