Women in Industry #10: Kerry Harding

Diversity and inclusivity are vital for the industry's growth, acknowledging the crucial importance of promoting gender diversity and inclusivity.

Hosted by Marie Tyler and powered by OrangeDoor, in partnership with IPSA and DARE - the Women In Industry series shines a spotlight on the journeys, perspectives and impact of women across the industry.

Episode 10: Kerry Harding – Skills for Security

Skills Shortage… or Skills Problem?

A candid conversation on whether the industry’s talent gap is truly about a lack of people, or a failure in training, development, and long-term investment in skills.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

I'm very honoured to have you here. Skills shortage. Skills for security. Is there a skill shortage? Is it a widely spread issue? I'll tuck into it a little bit, but before we do that, who is Kerry and how did you get into this industry?

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Okay, so I'm the director of Beetle and Skills for Security. So we are the UK's leading apprenticeship provider within the fire and security industry. I've been with the company for around 18 months. Complete fluke from the best industry, I've moved from professional services and I don't think I'd go anywhere else. Yes, keep going, don't worry, we're on the fly, it's totally fine. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Okay, and then how old were you when you came into the industry? 14. 14? 14. Oh right, I was gonna say, wow, that's a well you do look very young. Thank you. Um okay, so we picked this topic obviously to really tackle like what are the issues, what needs to be done, and I suppose what what Skills for Security is already doing, and it would be good to know as well, I suppose, what the plans are and things that are to come as well. But let's start with the what you are doing. What is currently happening right now to help tackle this gap, this talent gap?

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Um so essentially we offer apprenticeships within the fire and security industry. Um so we're constantly putting back into that talent pipeline. Um, whether that's the ones and twos that companies are hiring, or whether it's the tens to fifteens in cut water academies. Um what we're trying to do is create a sustainable pipeline of talent for when the current generation are reaching retirement. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

And how long has Skills for Security been going now? Many years, right? Many years. Um but I've I've noticed though from a marketing standpoint, certainly over the last couple of years, very much like really, really well communicated. Um, like the events as well. I've attended uh actually any one of the events so far, but even seeing online how they're done, it's all seems very um like the culture is very fun, very inclusive, uh, even down to where the apprenticeship pieces actually take place, the training and so on, the environment that's been provided. Can you tell me more about that? Like how how did that all come to play and is it working as it is, or are there things that are going to happen and change and moves?

SPEAKER_00 2:51

So at the moment we have eight training centres nationwide. Our aim is to ensure that our apprentices don't have to travel any more than an hour to get to the training centres because ultimately we want training to be accessible. Our aim ultimately is to reduce that to 30 minutes. Um so we're not quite there yet.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Um then with the teams then that perform, I suppose, the training or lead the apprenticeships and so on, are they part of the in-house team or is that like a talent pool that you tap into? How does it work?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

All in-house. So our tutors are ex-engineers who we recruit from industry and then we train them to become educators. So we put them to teach in qualifications, um have quality enhancements to make sure they are delivering the best possible education to our learners. So you're actually training the trainers, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

So is it a complete ecosystem that you put in place? That's amazing. So do you currently um I don't know whether you research it or you've already got the statistics around it, but is there a particular skills gap that that is already being addressed or needs to be addressed that you recognise? Like, is it that we need more women or do we need, is it really just actually just generally we just need more talent coming in? Like, what are you seeing?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

So the data would suggest that there is a skills shortage, however, it's a it's a lack of opportunities. We have the talent ready to join the industry, but we're limited with the opportunities available to them.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

So we need employers to start embracing you know this level of talent pool to come into play. I know you've got um, I don't know all the top of my head, but I'm sure you'll know them, but you do have a number of companies here that are part of that. Um so I suppose today, latent call to action, if you're not on the list, and I'll flash up the logos uh when the recording goes out, um, but if you're not on the list, you need to get yourself on the list, absolutely. What do they do to be on the list? What is that commitment? What are they at when they say okay, yeah, we want to support this, what does that actually mean?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

So taking on an apprentice, like I said, whether it's the ones or twos apprentices or whether it's a cohort for the larger businesses, um it's investing in those young people, bringing them through the sector. The apprenticeship is a three-year programme. Um it requires a significant investment from both the employer and the learner. Um, but ultimately we're not just creating engineers, we're embedding the culture and the values of that company during that three-year period.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

So when uh so say it was say Honeywell because I only I know because I was there at the time, I enjoyed, but then there's a journey between say Honeywell and Skills Recurity that go right, so exhibit, let's call him John, is gonna start a thing. You're actually working with that employer then to map out that three-year journey. Absolutely, right? So it's not just here's the template, off you go, um, you're sort of hosting that experience. And then what about from a coaching standpoint or a mentor or whatever? Like, does that still that responsibility is essentially on the employer, but you just help to facilitate how they should do the programme, or what's the interaction between skills discurity and the employer?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

So our learners will come into our centres for four days every eight weeks where we deliver the in-house training. The rest of the time they will be on the job with their employer. We have regular reviews with their employees so they know exactly where the apprentice is up to, where the skills need to be developed further, the type of experience they need to be exposed to. We hold their hand fully through that process. We also offer a talent find service. So if you've got a small business that wants to take on an apprentice but doesn't know where to start, we can offer the whole process from finding the right apprentice, right through the interview process, getting them signed up, onboarded, and then you know completing their apprenticeship.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

And then those apprentices are then assumedly they are obviously paid by the employer. Um and then what what does the employer have to pay Skills for Security for? Because you're giving a lot here. I mean you're providing the training, you're presumably there's lots of um assets and things that are provided to them, and so and so. Is it like a membership fee or is it done per apprentice?

SPEAKER_00 7:08

It depends on the company and whether they're a levy-paying company. I don't know the specifics of the amounts that are exchanged.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Well that's actually pretty good. So it's tailored, that's nice. Absolutely. So it's not a one-size-fits-all, it's tailored to the size of business, what their commitment level is. Um, but in terms of the output, the framework that you have in play is one that is now working.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

You actually now have a basically a backlog of talent, essentially, is what you're saying. Yeah, indeed. We have a talent pool of apprentices waiting for an opportunity to become available in their area.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

I was talking to somebody earlier who was saying one of the training gaps that they're finding is not so much on the engineering side or the installation side, those kinds of things, but more around people in those auxiliary roles and the ability to just tell them and train them on the industry, because at the minute, yes, how to do a role is obviously a very valuable apprenticeship doing. But if we were looking at attracting people from outside that might not necessarily want to be on the front line or doing installation, doing those kinds of things, um, and then if you already do this, then this is even better. But I was wondering would skills of security get involved in something like that, whereby actually it's what they're finding as employers is that when you have someone come in and their role is to do all of that office administrative tasks that are highly important in any business, but because of the industry and what it is and being able to understand broadly, what do we even mean by security? What's the difference between electronic security versus frontline? So, why is it fire and security? And what's what are the regulations? And you know what I mean? Like that's sort of something that actually to be honest, I'd be quite happy to go on because we were sort of joking about the fact that her, like me, have been in the industry for over 20 years, and I've just learned as I've gone along. And if if the idea is to not think of it as, oh, I am someone who works in an office that happens to be in the security industry, but actually makes it appealing to come into the industry because this is what the industry is. Oh, and it's not just installing or frontline and probably the stereotype of what security industry means, but actually just having a career in the security or fire industry is actually a really powerful thing. Do you really do anything like that? Does it, if not, is it something that could be explored?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

We actually offer wraparound apprenticeships as well, which also include administration, team leader, operations, AI. So because we appreciate that it's not just engineers on the front line, there's also back office staff that you know would benefit from apprenticeships and from learning as well, so we also offer those and primarily to the fire and security industry.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

And so you do that because I know focuses around apprenticeships. Um would it be fair to say then that if an employer was to do formally, which is your core, you know, have an apprenticeship piece come aboard? Would there be an opportunity, do you think, then, for that administrative type role that potentially there could be like a an opportunity for those employers to go, well, actually, I would like my existing auxiliary team to go on that course? Like, could they do something like that, or does it sit too far outside of the core business? Happy to think about it, yeah, because um it's it's very common that I'm talking to people and they say, Well, a lot of us have just been like people go, Oh, I fell into security, oh I'm just kind of winging it, or I've learned this, I've gone, or and and we're lucky that actually we have such a great industry that everyone is very open and we do share information and we learn from each other and we joke that it's incestuous because oh I started there but then I was there and then I was here and then but we all know each other along the journeys we've gone on. Um what I'm starting to see a trend on the conversations is that well then actually maybe people wouldn't fall into the industry if actually they had an opportunity to, as I say, rather than the obvious engineering or frontline officer or whatever it might be, that actually there is a career funnel that happens in the industry. I'm waffling, but I like your feedback that it could potentially because it sounds like you probably already have the content right there.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Absolutely, we're always looking at opportunities to diverse our offering. We want to remain within the fire and security industry because that's what we do best, but we appreciate that it's not necessarily just the engineers that need to be considered, it's the wider support team for the businesses. So we're constantly looking to either offering. Um we also offer upskilling to engineers, so it's not just you've completed your apprenticeship and then you you move on and we never see you again. We want you to come back so that your continued development stays with us. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

To be just obvious, you've got all the skill, all the content, the the the processes in place. I genuinely think if you were to tap into that, it could be because the industry needs a marketing campaign anyway, right? We need to attract more talent into the industry. And I was thinking about all of the different organisations, and I'm like, well, you're the only one that makes any sense that would actually be able to fill that gap. Well, that'd be very exciting if it does turn into something about we'll see. Um so we are doing the women in industry network here, and the idea is that of course we are women, uh, which is why we get the spotlight, and only interviewed one man, and it was only because it was an introduction to his successful female as an ally. Um how do you find being a woman in the industry?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

It's a challenge. It is. Um you're constantly trying to change stereotypes. Um however, we're in the positions we're in because we're strong women, so we're best placed to tackle those stereotypes.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

And I think also not just this industry but companies in general, I suppose have been um funnelled in a direction where it's almost like fashionable to be inclusive, uh to be approachable, to be kind. Um and I suppose all of those social pushes, just as a as a world, I I feel like it's helped us a lot as well. Like we're not just making stuff up here. We've already been doing all this stuff by the way, because we're nice people. Um but I feel like for me it's definitely helped a lot to go well, and especially when I was working at Honeywell as well, which is like it's embedded in the culture, and then when you have companies like yourselves that are forward-thinking, very modern, have come across that way, very modern, um, that in itself is just continuing to help change the world. But I agree with you that there is still some challenges, shall we say, um, you know, in changing the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Absolutely. We're also acutely aware that the number of female apprentices on program is significantly lower than we'd like. In the last academic year, 3% of our apprentices were female. Right. Um, and only half of them actually go on to complete their apprenticeship for various reasons. So there's definitely more that we need to do to encourage women into the sector.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Another thing we were talking about with somebody else was um uh not to say that um that men and fathers don't have the similar pressures, but generally women getting back to work, obviously there are challenges with that uh because at the end of the day we physically berth them. Uh so slightly different challenges to men. Um and so another person was saying, oh well maybe one of the campaigns we could do is to literally appeal to whether it be first-time mothers or or recently become again mum, um, and has certain restrictions around availability of time. That obviously with any form of study and having flexibility to be able to, you said it was like four days a week, you know, is that flexible and and could that work in some way that because you think apprenticeships, you often think it's as someone that's young starting out, but actually quite often as a mum, you just want to get back into a profession. Would that be a target audience?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

We're restricted with the um the block learning because that's governed by the apprenticeship rules, um, so that there is limited flexibility with that. Um I suppose the flexibility would apply in the careers that they then go into once they've completed their apprenticeship. They don't necessarily need to be on the tools or on call. They can move into sectors such as ours, which is the education sector, um, which offers a lot more flexibility, it takes them away from their unsociable hours, offers that work-life balance. It doesn't mean that you are restricted and have to become an engineer at the end of that.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

I think it would be a really powerful message to put Al to say if you are that type of woman in that situation, that you could be the key that gets them back, either back in or starting a career. Um, the lady actually that came by earlier I'd spoken to last year, and she had a story like that where uh very successful, very senior in the role that she had, um took time out for about three years to have a couple of children and wanted to fully dedicate her time to that. And then when she came back to come back to work, of course, as we know, generally in the UK, anyway, it's up to a year, you generally will get your role back. So, of course, she couldn't go directly back to her employer. Um but when she spoke to a lot of people, it was like, well, yeah, we take you, but you'll need to drop down a couple of pegs, and essentially she had to prove us, and she did it very quickly and she built herself back up again. Um it's just like another scenario where you think it almost needs to be like how do you like the keep in touch days some people do, which I think is really great. There's just probably I'm I'm rambling again, but the point is I think mums, either first-time mums or returning mum-to-work mums, I think there's a real opportunity there because of what you do already with employers to say, by the way, so we have these tracks, you know, you've got the ones that are clearly already doing really, really well, and not to add to your burden because you have a backlog of talent, but when I think about the CSL, that commercial um social responsibility on businesses, it could be another opportunity to say, right, so you could actually proactively help us to re-employ mums or returning mums to work and have a program for that, that could be potentially quite a powerful thing to do. Uh, I'll let you think about that if it's so exciting.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

We're actually exploring the opportunity at the moment of having female-only cohorts. Amazing. So that we have a female tutor, that we have a female cohort because we appreciate that it could be quite an intimidating environment coming into a cohort of 10, 15. Because they'll come in and they'll be like, well, I don't feel like I fit in because I'm the only woman, I'm the one of the three percent in the room. Yeah, of course. Different banter, different experiences in life, um, different experiences in the workplace. Um, it you know, having some common ground between your cohort I think would really help. We're also looking at creating a peer-on-peer group so that they at least, if let's assume that they're not in the same cohort at the minute, that there's an opportunity for them to actually touch base with other female apprentices, share experiences, take advice. Um, you know, we're very fortunate that when we've had female tutors, they're able to share their experiences being out in the field with our learners. Um there's many companies out there that specifically request female engineers because of the environments they're going into. That would be, for example, a domestic violence shelter that's you know women only and they specifically would prefer a female engineer. Yeah. There are opportunities out there for female engineers. I just don't think we hear about men of no.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

And that's why it's good that we're having conversations like this and also the marketing that you're generally doing anyway, which I think is fantastic to spread the word, talk to as many people as possible, um, have those success stories and be able to shout from rooftops. Um is there anything else you want to share with our listeners? Anything else that's I mean you've covered quite a lot of things here anyway, but anything else that have you got anything you want to ask of the industry that they should be doing, or anything that you've got planned that's gonna change, or you want to to announce or tell anybody?

SPEAKER_00 18:51

I suppose it's recognising the benefits an apprentice can bring to your workforce. You know, a lot of people see an apprentice as essentially an inconvenience, or you know, we don't have time or the money to dedicate to them. Based on our statistics, 65% of apprentices stay with their employer on completion of the apprenticeship. That's a retention strategy in itself.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yes. Um you've proven you can do what you do, you've got the statistics to back it up. We've also got some fantastic uh companies that continue to smoothly do it. Um so no-brainer. Um, and being someone who started as an apprentice myself, I'm absolutely a fan of apprenticeships. I think it is absolutely the way forward. Um, so if they're not in it, get in it. Um, thank you so much for being here today. Um, lovely to meet you in person. Another women that's rocking it. Thank you for having me. And uh yeah, enjoy the rest of the show. Thank you very much.