Women in Industry #12: Anne Marie Chebib

Diversity and inclusivity are vital for the industry's growth, acknowledging the crucial importance of promoting gender diversity and inclusivity.

Hosted by Marie Tyler and powered by OrangeDoor, in partnership with IPSA and DARE - the Women In Industry series shines a spotlight on the journeys, perspectives and impact of women across the industry.

Episode 12: Anne Marie Chebib – IPSA Affiliate Member

Crowd Safety Isn’t a Tick Box: So Why Do We Treat It Like One?

Challenging complacency in how safety is approached and delivered.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Women in Industry Podcast. I'm Marie Diane Tyler, and this series was recorded live at the security event in partnership with IPSA and Dare, powered by Orange Door, an unbridled company. Let's get into it. Right. Do you like to be called Anne Anne Marie? Or anything else? Like, how do you call it? Annie.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I when I I was with CMS committee a couple of weeks ago and I forgot which environment I was in at the time from Westminster, and they said, yeah, and the first thing you said to me is, Do you want to be called Annie or Am Marie? And I said, Well, I think you're my mum if I say Amory. And then suddenly realised which I was way, way out of my depth and way out of the formality zone that I should have been in. So Annie's great.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Because you and I, although I suppose, much like everyone in the industry, are like ships in the night scenarios where we've got the lovely Lisa Basco at the background saying hi. Um but I feel like you and I probably only really spent a little bit more time together. Was actually um at an award recently, um, we got a couple of selfies, and I was just like, I need a little bit more time with this lovely lady because I observe you and I see what you're doing online, and you know, and obviously with your organisation, but it's nice for me to get a bit of tummy, so thank you for this.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

No, um it's honestly it's a pleasure and vice versa. I just yeah, I know I know you of many years.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

I know who you are.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

I've seen you online, and you also have lots of people who love you, who love me, so we go. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

So a meeting of minds makes sense. We only look we only talk to nice people. I appreciate you being here. And today, our main topic is gonna be crowd safety isn't a tick box, so why do we treat it like one? But before we tuck into it, tell us about Annie. How did you get into this industry?

SPEAKER_02 1:55

I'm not trying to remember because it's so many years ago, you know. Let's get the dust off the years. The 90s actually, it was all in the 90s for me where it started. And I started doing stewarding at big free festivals when I was at university, and um essentially got the love for safety more than necessarily security. Had to make, hadn't got to the end of my degree, needed a job, didn't want to grow up. The security industry was definitely there. So I I sort of started on the front line doing events and then moved into doing stores in the 90s. So I I spent quite a bit of time in university actually. You were on the door. On the door, yeah, for for probably about six years on the seafront in Brighton, um, getting my way through university, paying for it with the door work. So, and I was definitely the only woman in my surroundings at that point, so no question about it. There were maybe two women who worked in Brighton, very security overall at that point, so it's quite unusual. So I was always the one who had to search, you're always the one, oh you're the woman, you can do that thing. You could do that thing. So there was a lot of kind of that, and and obviously the environment's changed a lot in the last 30 years, but it's so I think I've just kind of developed a career as I've developed my lifestyle. So a lot of it is kind of found to okay, actually, you've got to get serious about this. You need to find something to do that's gonna pay your wages to be able to so I joined uh very early on. I joined a security company that did doors and worked as operational support in the office. So it kind of gave me a that's how you book the staff, that's how you do that. So that's what I did for probably a couple of years after uni. Um, and then just someone offered me £8,000, which felt like a lot of money at the time to go into business with them. Uh, so we started a security company, and that was that was mainly a door security company. Um, that probably was the next five years of my journey was supplying large-scale numbers of door staff for the venues and and uh less so events and more so venues at that point. Um and then, yeah, so then I moved into to events. I think again that was quite a natural trajectory, and I don't think any of this was planned. But I actually I don't know many people who in the security industry have a plan, right? You know, to be where they end up in the security industry.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

The experience takes you on a bit of a journey.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah, and I think probably less so now. I think now you see people coming going actually. I want to get in security. Right. I look at people who were who whose age I was when I first started doing this, the kind of 19 to 25 year olds were actually inspired to do it. So, you know. Why do you think that is? I think because we're changing as an industry, very much so, and I think you know, there is people that see the possibility of career paths, and you know, you have got people like us and Satia who are paving a way for this, and you know, there's plenty of other examples of that, but you know, that there are there are now role models, so I think we weren't there when we were growing up and going into doing what we're doing. So I think people can see people doing it who are like them, and I think that always makes a difference. So, you know, I suppose we're we're all trailblazing a bit still in that in that way, but so wherever you end up, I think has always been an organic mission. If you've been in the industry for sort of 20-30 years or whatever, then there's definitely that kind of organic nature to how you've got where you are. Um but I think events have been my thing now for about 20 years, so uh you know, I've developed, yeah, particularly kind of like your outdoor events, your you know, your non-ticketed, difficult. I always end up with the tricky ones, so Lewis Bonfire or a parade or a processional pride, and and you know, they're the best events to work by far, they're the most fun, the most rewarding, but they're also the hardest to do in some respect. So, yeah. Um so now we do more auditing and more consultancy after years of doing it.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Well we say we, so that's UKCMA.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Well, it's Select Security. So I run Select Security, which is my business, and I've run that now for that's 27 years old now. And then UKCMA I've been working with as secretary for 17 years and then moved into the role of chair about four or five years ago. So I've definitely got these two different hats that I wear, but they're very complementary of each other, and most days I'm doing both sort of intermittently or seamlessly kind of moving from one to the other. So I don't know which takes up more time these days. I think probably UKCMA to an extent than my own business, but that's because I've got a great team around me who can support both elements of that. And I think if it wasn't for them, then it would be impossible to sort of talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

It's like one door opens for another and back and forth, doesn't it? Um more fabulous women walking past. Yeah, we've got the lovely Tammy from K4 go by, um, who I'm also speaking to tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Hooray.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Um so alright, so then talk to me about our topic, crowd safety. Why are we treating it like a tick box exercise or not like what's your view?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Oh wow, okay. So I I think it's dependent on um who hello lovely. Kaylee's just walked in to disengage. So I think I think it depends on who you speak to as what kind of exercise it becomes. So I again we it's a really difficult part of the industry to work in in terms of there's no regulation or legislation around it. I think if you know it's a it's quite a big grey space just talking on in terms of crowds. So, you know, beyond the SIA legislation and beyond the regulation of door staff, uh uh the rest of the world of crowds doesn't have that kind of that that kind of regulation, that kind of legislation around it. So you're constantly reliant on things like the Health and Safety and Work Act. Now people are kind of pinning their hopes on Martin Floor a little bit, but obviously outside of those ticketed and fenced areas, it's going to make no difference whatsoever. So I I think it becomes a I think it becomes a need to have for some people because they're trying to tick boxes. You've also got people who are have been through bad experiences who realise that cloud safety isn't the same as security, and that there's actually fundamental differences between the two. And I definitely have strands of uh strands of clients who, because of bad experience, have then developed their understanding about clouds and how to give clouds a you know a good experience and how safety can pay and integral part of that. So I think it's kind of for me very dependent on who the client is, as to how they treat that. Um, so and and I think you know that is quite a challenging thing a lot of the time is to find that sort of balance in terms of budget, in terms of quality, in terms of customer experience, in terms of safety, and all of that stuff needs to be taken into account. So I think you have to work with your clients as to what their need is and how they understand it and interpret it, and then teach them about what the benefits of doing that is in most cases. So I think it's just really client-dependent as to how they treat that.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Can we tuck into those differences there? Yeah, um because what what do you think are typically the ones that perhaps are either misunderstood or or missed between the when people think traditionally about security versus crowd safety?

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Um I I think it is about the intersection of the city.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Sorry, we're in the middle of a recording. Thank you. Thank you. Maybe need to put up another barrier. Cracking on.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

I'm sure we've got some barriers somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

I've lost our train of thought now. So differences, yeah. Usual uh interpretations versus reality.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah, okay. So so I think a lot of the times sort of people will forget that the customer journey and safety are totally integral parts of each other. So from the point you leave your house, or certainly the point you arrive at the transport hub of an event you're going to, you're gonna have, you know, there's a responsibility, I think, on the event organiser and other stakeholders to form that journey in some kind of way with pre-comms, with, you know, and I think what's missed is often that integration of customer experience and expectation alongside what integrally can keep them safe. And so actually, you're giving people pre-comms anyway, you might as well make those safety, you know, safe, sensible messaging that makes people understand what routes they're gonna use, how you're gonna manage them. And some events are fantastic at that. They'll have everybody on the app, they'll have a good understanding of how customer commons can integrate into the world of safety. And then you've got other people who don't see the value in that and don't understand that. So often it's just that kind of holistic approach, if you like. And I particularly like the word holistic because it's go, you know, it covers a lot of stuff, but um, but I think in this case it's that kind of trying to like integrating it into the general piece and actually saying, if we can get there at site design and if we can get there before you put your tickets on sale, rather than be an afterthought into the way in which we're gonna integrate into what you do, we can help you a lot more. And I think people miss the value of that. They don't they don't see it as a customer experience bit, they see it as a hospit. There's dogs, there's people. There's stuff happening everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

I might get them to put the dog on the seat in a bit as well. I'd be like, can it speak?

SPEAKER_02 11:02

It'll focus more than me, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Um not.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Last year I think I was interviewing um, I think it was Satya actually, and then a couple of Mexicans came from and then simply got dogs, um no one can see on camera, but um yeah, we'll we'll capture that later.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Actually has the security vest on it's not a real dog. I mean incredibly well trained.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

I mean, yeah, we've taken them out to to poop anyway. Um so slight sidetrack. Yes, dude. Um so okay, so there's the differences piece uh that that typically happens. So it's about education, awareness, uh approaching clients in a logical way, um, bringing them on a journey that, as you say, it's not just about uh the safety element of it, it is an experience.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yes, yeah. And actually, if you lose the focus on that, then you're losing the focus of what your client actually wants, you know, a lot of the time. And then yeah, on top of that, that's how you treat your staff, how you do that basic stuff, which makes you know, makes such a difference because people are happy, therefore they're courteous, and when they're courteous and they they're de-escalating, you're gonna get a much better result from the public, whichever way you look at it. So actually, just the very nature of the staff who are on site being happy, being looked after welfare-wise, being properly trained to do the role that they're doing, all of that stuff actually matters on the ground. Again, I think people really miss it. You get people shipping in hundreds of staff that have worked overnight somewhere, they've had six hours with a coach to grab some sleep, and then they're back on another site somewhere else. Now that's the nature of summer, but actually, if you can just break a bit of that cycle, you know, a lot of the time it will make a big difference. But obviously, we go through peak and peaks and profs, so you are going to have points at which that's you know more the case. Midsummer is probably the time that you get that kind of stuff happening. But you know, I kind of I'm a firm believer that if you've got don't go beyond your means of what you can you you can take on work life if you haven't got the staff to cover that, and just be comfortable with how you put that in place. So I think there's that operational element of delivery, and then there's a kind of working with your client a bit, and you kind of have to have that as one approach piece, it's not just about you know one element of that or keeping your client happy or keeping the staff happy. It's got to be that kind of there's a balance in there somewhere, isn't there? And I think people miss that the importance of all of that as one piece.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Have you had examples or scenarios, either you or seen or heard of ones where it's gone horribly wrong?

SPEAKER_02 13:38

And loads.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Loads. Um and it can be very small things, and it can also be very large things. So you know, we've worked some events that have gone wrong. So take we did the eclipse in Cornwall in the 90s, and that was a disastrous event. I mean, that went horrifically wrong. Pat boys them on Brighton Beach from uh emergency planning. And when you say went wrong, like what if it's what do you think? Well in in in that case, there was in that case the fence came down, there was loads of really bad behaviour from people, there was basically not enough resource, there was no control whatsoever on any of it. And and we've been in that situation where the control's been lost on a number of occasions, and that could be different types of events. So whether there's a shooting in Notting Hill Carnival or whether there's a stabbing in an event, or say, you know, like often these things, of course, but but you've got that kind of wider scale impact of crowds. So you've got the bit where crowds, you're not planning properly for the numbers you're getting, uh, you've oversold your tickets, you've had a fraud on your tickets, there's loads of reasons that these big things can happen. So there's definitely kind of those big elements. I mean, working on Fat Boy Same on Brighton Beach in 20 whatever it was, 2010. Um, so there was definitely that kind of like element of it was a big free concert. Chris Moyles had been putting it on Radio One, telling everyone everyone was told about it, and before we knew it, we would we pitch for having 80,000 and we had like 20 times that amount. So suddenly you've got so so there's all of those kind of cataclysmic things that happen. It was on the beach in Brighton. Yeah, there's quite a number. There's a good documentary that came out about it, which features quite a lot of people who I work closely with. I didn't want to be on that.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

You don't want to be associated with that one.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Yeah, that was hard work, and it's only afterwards, honestly, that you kind of look back on that and go, you know, like you know, you don't really need to.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

I did.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

I had a moment there. Um but to me it's also the small things, the unseen things, which when we're talking about kind of what goes wrong, is equally a problem. So let's say you've got like you've got earphones that don't work. Luckily, I can hear you. Okay. Uh so I've got hearing like a bat, actually. Uh but also that's that kind of like what happens if lunch bags don't turn up, and you've got people all the way along a route that need to eat, and suddenly you've got 50 to 100 staff who all are stuck out in the middle of nowhere on a race that they can't get their food. Or you're relying on volunteers and those volunteers don't turn up, for example.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Like there's a ton of little effects.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah, exactly. Uh there's a ton of little things that are often like, actually, we just have to get through this. You know, so for me, there's not often a no in my vocabulary. There will always be a solution. And if you can keep positively thinking of those solutions, you know, like how quickly can we get delivery around the route to be able to, you know, like, etc. etc. You have to, you know, we've had events where uh minibuses haven't turned up, we've had to taxi people miles and miles to the middle of nowhere to get them to where they need to be. So just some of those fundamental things, or your kit hasn't turned up, or you have a you know exactly. So all of that kind of stuff can be equally as hard work actually as some of that big ticket stuff. Yeah. So I kind of think it's actually if you get the little stuff right, you don't sweat the big stuff right. So that that for me has always kind of been the approach with it, really, I guess. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

So you've had some horror stories.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Um I suppose success might be simpler to describe because ultimately it is the control that is prime preparation, preventable performance, you think.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Um is there a sort of a framework or a secret playbook to how this goes, or is it always job by job?

SPEAKER_02 17:39

I I I think I wouldn't ever template any of my work in terms of I I, you know, when I write a plan or I'm looking at the deployment of something, it's always so site specific. It's also incredibly time consuming because that's the same.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

And venue specific, right? Because obviously a beach versus a hotel.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

It's totally different in terms of what we do. And one thing I like about the job is that variety because it tends to be in terms of anything from evacuation times to the numbers of people you might need. If you're on a beach and there's pebbles, you know, it's gonna be a completely different trips at a complete different set of problems as you've got on a hotel. Uh, you know, but you know, so all of those things kind of matter, and you have to weigh those risks up. So in terms of kind of deployment, it's always going to be slight-specific, but you've also got lessons that you learn from each site, and the way in which you've developed things like your welfare and your training of your staff and your you know your relationships with the clients, that bit I think has got some sort of scientific method.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

So there's some best practices that are developed as opposed to a framework on an approach, it's actually more around learnings and it really is, yeah. Applying those to those.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, and app I think it's application of strategic and application of tactical, which gives you uh every operational result is going to be different, everybody's gonna want something different from that. So you're constantly tweaking, but you know, that's not to say I don't have a sustainability policy or a diversity policy, which is in all of my paperwork. So there are some elements of that which don't change in terms of what I do, but you know but the overarching design approach and what's required is is really tailored. Yes, it has to be. And you know, we've got things like DIM ICE, which is your design information management, ingress circulation, egress, which is the mouth, big uh big model, um, Keith Still's model of crowd dynamics, essentially. And we can use that to go, okay, have we thought about things? The idea is to use that kind of modelling and uh roots and analysis of those roots to so you've got science which doesn't change behind crowd management, but you've also got to try and tailor that with something much more human interfacing and much more on the ground. So you actually need to be a bit of a practicemic almost in the work that we do. You have to have that practitioner's head, but an academic background into what you do because if you don't know how to do the maths, then you can't work these things out, you know. And so I I think there's that that you know you're always gonna have to train that.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

That logic that then enables the uh the tailoring to exactly.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

But you need all of that background stuff which doesn't change, and I think that's you know, partly physics, partly maths, partly heuristics, partly you know, customer service, etc. etc. So there's always gonna be so it's a complicated old world uh for us, and you know, likewise government don't really know what to do with us in crowds because they don't want to put us in security, they don't want to quite they don't quite fit into what the home office do, you know, all the SIA do, but they all have a little part to play in that. So at the moment, our big ask is we need a home for France with with government, and that's one of the biggest asks that we've got with the UK CMA at the moment. And we're actually knocking on some doors and getting some results with that. And I would really like to see a place where not they've got somewhere to hit us with a big stick, but we've got somewhere to take it when the next hills perhaps, the next bricks perhaps, because it will happen. You know, we've got those, you know, we sadly you know, but then ultimately no crowd is ever going to be a hundred percent safe, right? You've got it, you know, we can only manage risk, we can't completely mitigate it in the other crowd. So uh, you know, and I think in every security that's really similar. So kind of, yeah, maybe that's where we're at.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Well my next my next thing was going to be what's next. When you're kind of leading on to that already of what you're saying. No, I mean and because you know, you're you're clearly you're on the pulse, you're you know, you're thinking ahead, you're you've gotten to where you are and doing what you're doing, but the very reasons we were just talking about, no, there isn't just a one-size-fits all. I think you you know the passion for what you do and how you're doing it, and and the reputation that you have, and the and it speaks for it. You don't, and I think that's um it's really powerful for others to be able to see that and know that with the seriousness of what you do, but actually the personality you have, I think, is really refreshing. And a woman in industry, which of course with our podcast here, which is Which is awesome. So yeah, my last bits were what's next? And then the last bit was really any advice that you would give to any women maybe outside of the industry on why they should consider coming in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

So you know, I'm much clearer now on the direction of travel than I've ever been before. And I think I'm I I'm gonna celebrate I'm 50 this year. I'm gonna absolutely celebrate that.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

I'm gonna celebrate Please tell me what cream you're using.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Thank you. You can talk. Shut up, my God. You're about 30 years younger than me anyway. Anyway, so I I think for me, knowing where I want to go and what I'm doing, it's taken me 30 years of working this career to really go, okay, I'm gonna find this journey and this is where I'm going. And you know, I'm kind of I'm kind of proud that I go into my 50s being really quite focused on all of that. And and you know, maybe I think it's about finding your place. And I don't think crowds is gonna be everyone's place. Exactly. And so creating space is what you and I have both done in our in our worlds. We haven't, you know, we don't work for other people. I couldn't work for anyone, I'm unemployable, I would reckon.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

So you should be in the heart there.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

I would I would I'd be asking for all sorts of breaks. Um you know, I think there's that that piece for me of having made your own space. And I think if we're gonna look at what my future is, it'll be very different to the next person's future, right? But actually, what's beautiful about the security industry and what's beautiful about crowds and safety and all of that world is actually there is a place for everybody in that industry. A different thing, you know, we're we're a very different spectrum of women. It might be, you know, we might be the trailblazers in terms of this stuff, but actually, we're all very different in our personalities and what we what we like to do, what what turns us off, what makes us happy. You know, it's like we're always going to be complex creatures, right? And part of that is celebrating that and saying, okay, there's a place for everybody within the security world. You will find your home with it, whether you're a creative or whether you're uh, you know, you're you're you know, you like a list, or whether you know, it doesn't matter which way whether you're left or right brain.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

But do it being kind and be open on a lean in.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

And do, you know, stick to your own values and your own ethics. I'm I'm terribly uh, you know, I'm I'm a real believer in in uh you know, stick to what you uh feel comfortable with, listen to your gut. Because I think if you don't listen to your gut, you're going nowhere. So don't ever walk away from that and don't feel under pressure. I think if I was going to give people advice about where to go forward, to ever do things in a way that you feel uncomfortable with. So, you know, and I think that's how you realise your vision of what you want to achieve is stay true to yourself. And so, and I think women are damn good at doing that as well. So, and and you know, no down to the men either, but 100%.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

I think I think sometimes I'm women male, female female. I think we influence that in a good way as well. Uh certainly for me with my male colleagues, I think I I've seen that. Um so I suppose then by doing those things and doing things like this, and us speaking out and sharing that and um you know being happy to be vulnerable and uh be emotionally intelligent and share all the things, smashing it at the same time, like all the angles. But like I was speaking to um a lady earlier, uh Demi, who um started her life in the in this industry as an apprentice, uh and she was saying herself, she was very uniquely positioned when I asked her, you know, who inspired you along the way and how has it gone, assuming it would be probably a man, just because you know, and it was actually a woman. Um, and she said, but it was seeing her doing what she did that inspired me to do that. She was like a she's become like a second mum to me. I don't even work with her anymore, but she stayed with me throughout my journey and thing of it. And you touched on it too. I think when we see other people doing things, the more just you know, and like you said, I'm not saying the women should take over, we just need to find a balance and get it equal so that we're all here representing. Um, and it is super powerful having and the kindness piece because I'm I'm seeing for me when I started out in in the industry, um, some of the more, and I don't want to go too much on the hating because I don't like any of that because I I've got so many male allies, yes, but it was a more let's just say traditional approach in certain areas, and I love the fact that now more generally everybody embraces what's right, what's wrong, being fully inclusive and all things, and actually just being more about, especially in an AI world now, how important we are as people uh and having the kindest piece, and just like you're like, I just feel I can even feel my body just being like, you know, do you know what I mean? And Satia does it as well, isn't it? Although maybe she's a little bit more like but like we need they need to see this, like more of the not just women, younger talent, everybody just realize that the security industry, or or just this whole safety security fire, that it's just another industry that actually ultimately helps keep places safer, you know. So it's a kind of a really cool place to be, and it isn't a male-dominated industry anymore. So come, let's go. Like you're welcome. That doesn't totally agree, and it kind of like that was a bit of rattling, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:17

No, no, it's actually a nice segue because kind of it reminds me of so I went to an all-girls school, and we used to we used to stand up and say you're so well spoken. There you go, darling. It's much posher than I sound. Um, but our headmistress used to stand up in front of stores and say every morning in assembly, my girls are for the boardroom, not the bedroom and the kitchen. And that was how you started your day. And I think my mum was also a really strong and powerful character in my life. And I spoke to my twin sister about this because we obviously it's like lovely to have that kind of you know, have someone who can go, why have we turned out like this? Why are we so bulky and and uh not very fair?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

And then you're like, actually, I can see that. I can see.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Uh so I think there's a bit of kind of going, and and she very much put it into perspective with me going, she's it because it's not a problem. Because we so a lot of it is about mindset, and a lot of it is about realizing I'm lucky enough to have had those experiences in life, but actually, you know, I've I've done them by seeing other people standing up and going, women are um not only equal to men, but in some areas they're gonna surpass men for their ability. In others, they're not, you know, like we have to accept that there's you know that it's always gonna be, you know, everybody is gonna be able to do the same job. We're probably gonna do it in different ways because with nature and nurture, and mainly on the nurture side, we are taught differently as women and men often. And so, you know, there's very deep-seated stuff going on psychologically for these people, I think. But the way to break that, a lot of that is gonna be seeing people doing what and seeing people who look like you and and feel like you and hurt like you, and are vulnerable like you, and are kind like you doing those jobs, is exactly how we're gonna get to the point of changing the industry. It's gonna be by action, it's not gonna be by words. I mean, these you know, podcasts like this really help. That's where words do matter, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yeah, probably on the wall, listening on the conversation, not too formal, having a show.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Um although she's done most of the talking, but she told me this would happen.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

She's a great chatter. No, but it makes it easier for me because I'm like, oh thank god, she knows what she's talking about. Um honestly, I I know this won't be the last time that you and I have a uh a recorded conversation. I'd love that. We'll have an uncensored one after this with a beer as well. Um, but honestly, an absolute pleasure, and it's been lovely to get to know you a bit better.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

I've got so many questions to ask you. I know that's not today's podcast.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

I've saved that for another day.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Alright, we're gonna do a video.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Um thank you so much, and um, yeah, this has been fantastic, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

What an honour, honestly, to be here. Um, I just honestly I love what you guys do, and I I I think you you sit here with an air of grace and beauty that actually.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

And that's you know, thank you very much, honey. Thank you.