Women in Industry #13: KT Sonnen

Diversity and inclusivity are vital for the industry's growth, acknowledging the crucial importance of promoting gender diversity and inclusivity.

Hosted by Marie Tyler and powered by OrangeDoor, in partnership with IPSA and DARE - the Women In Industry series shines a spotlight on the journeys, perspectives and impact of women across the industry.

Episode 13: KT Sonnen – Invictus Pro Training

From Frontline to COO: Rethinking Safety in Live Events

Frontline experience, academic research, and leadership insight challenging how safety is approached.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Katie. You and I are new acquaintances. I was given a nomination for you to come on this podcast through the 19th group. We had a chat and I was like, oh wow, now I can see why. We've got a topic today for from frontline to COO, rethinking safety and live events. We will tuck into that in just a minute, but first of all, more importantly, who is Katie and how did you get into this industry? Who is Katie?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

That is a big who am I? So it's probably easier to say how did I get into where I am. So I finished university, graduated psychology and criminology. So naturally everyone said, Oh, so you're going to join the police? And because everyone said you're going to join the police, I said, no, I'm not. Love it. Standard. Had a little bit of student loan left over somehow and had been sort of unofficially throughout uni and just prior to uni always made good friends with the door staff. There weren't that many women in the industry, so I'd be constantly asked to go and check the ladies' toilets, do all of their work for them somehow. So when I finished, had a bit of student loan left over, they said, Well, why don't you do your badge and then you can actually get paid for it? And I was like, oh okay. Now we're talking. Yeah, I'll see where this is going. Wages at the time was pretty good, you know, for what I was doing. And turned out I think I was alright. So yeah, started very male-heavy, lots of ego, obviously, so lots of me constantly trying to prove myself, especially on that physical side. And when you've got an entire team of very big men, all of whom do bodybuilding and martial arts, I learned very quickly some very practical skills. It was a lot of fun, but kind of moved up through supervision and then leading teams, management. Tried to stay away from events as much as possible just because the stories that I heard weren't particularly exciting. So I stayed more in sort of venues and operational sides, dabbled in medical, so event medical provision that way. And then started in training. So yeah, still do a little bit of operational as and when, only the fun jobs. So if you see me on a site, know that you know I'm quite interested in it. And yeah, supported the husband through his company and work my way up and now chief operating officer. Oh, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah. Because yeah, as you say, from the frontline to COO. We skipped over that because that's a nice like summary of that. But a lot of pretty important things happened in some of those stages, and especially with you know getting into that role and then kind of not well, maybe not giving up what you were doing, but making quite a strong pivot to support that business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

How did that go? So it went well. So he was working full-time for a big national company in events, and he just wasn't happy with it. He was working really long hours. Um there was quite a lot of shortcuts and things like you know, things that he couldn't do that, you know, if legally that should be done, it's quite difficult to say. Um but being PC today. Yes, being very well behaved. Um yeah, so he just wasn't happy with it, he wasn't happy with the way he's being treated, um, and some of the steps that you know he wanted to take, he couldn't. So I just said to him, look, you know, you've you've got a training company already, we would deliver in training for it for that other company.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

So you kind of led not well not led it, but like maybe sort of egged him on and sort of inspired him a little bit to take the leap, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Yeah, I mean he's quite a strong, independent man himself. Um but I think him knowing that I supported him.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

You could see like this could actually work and that you would be there back in it.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

And he'd get to do what he wanted, um, spend more of his time doing what he wanted and actually enjoying you know his days and delivering the training that he wanted to be delivering and that he thought brought value and does bring value to think so it does bring value to people. So yeah, that's really rewarding for me and obviously for him as well. So that's that's our business now. How big is the business now? How many have you got in the team? So um, as in like PAYE, it's just us. Um oh we've just taken on a client growth and success manager. Nice, yeah, yeah. Don't know what that means. Getting spoiled. Yeah, just social media. I'd we stay away from that, I'm not very good at that. Uh keeps us in track. Um, but just two of us, and then we have a big team of the city. But it's an extended team, yeah. Yeah, freelance trainers who go out. So it's like a talent pool of trusted, yeah. Yeah, and they've all got their own individual specialisms as well. So we've got some who've been in security for years, we've got uh registered paramedics, um, so they'll take the lead on anything clinical, but they've also worked CP. So yeah, it's it's a really nice multi-talented team, um, and that's what we wanted. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

So along this journey though, was it as easy as it sounds? Or any challenges along the way? I mean lessons learned. Was it like, yeah, no problem, Dale, let's just take the plunge?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Was it Yeah, I mean lessons learned, uh, practical lessons, always wear two belts if you're on an event site, uh, one for your radio and one for your trousers. Um probably the biggest one I but no, I think that like that journey with Invictives has been fairly smooth. I mean obviously there are challenges, so Covid you know it was a challenge for everybody because all events stopped, so all operational work stopped, all training work stopped, and we suddenly had to pivot and go, actually, how do we make this work still? Um and we were quite lucky that we were involved in the pilot for some of the security qualifications being delivered online. So we ended up with a CCTV training room essentially in our house, which also meant that we got to bring Carl's dad in as a burglar for their life. Brilliant. Yep, so he loved it because it got him out of the house and he had to pretend to break into our house, you know, 12 times in the space of an afternoon. Uh the dogs had no idea what was going on, so I think the neighbours thought we were insane. Um they did call the they didn't call the police, they called us. Like, you were right. What's going on? This man seems to be trying to break into your house. Yeah, that's right, it's the father-in-law, it's fine. He's not very good. Um so that was yeah, that was challenging. Um, but again, it shows what can be done when we need to. It means we've taken a lot more online training, we've integrated a lot more blended learning uh within what we're doing. Um so yeah, it's you know, everything there's always challenges, you know, there's no problems, there's always challenges. We always learn how to, you know, maybe not overcome, but definitely adapt. So yeah, treat everything's a learning opportunity, and suddenly everything's a lot it's a lot more cheery place to be when you look at it that way.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

100%. We didn't say you win or you lose, they go they win or you learn. Yeah. Um so safety in live events and rethinking that.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Tell our listeners and and watchers, uh what's your thinking around that? What do you mean rethink it? What's your angle?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

So there's a lot of siloing within the events industry and within the security industry as well. So then when you bring those two very siloed industries together with people not sharing information, um kind of keeping it all to themselves, and I understand that from a commercial viewpoint, um, but you know, if we look at what everybody's trying to achieve overall, we want events and venues and you know society at large to be safer for everybody. So why aren't we sharing best ideas and intelligence? And it's it's frustrating. So part of my PhD was looking at that lack of sharing of intelligence and just information and best practice and guidance. Guidance is out there, some people stick to it, some people don't. Um if you find a great way to do it, why share that? Yeah, exactly. You know, we see that quite a lot within um large companies. So, you know, they'll have if they're following a tour around or you know what particular artist, they'll share that within company or say, oh you know, last last night we had 18 phone thefts, um, so we might want to be a bit more stricter on you know checking motivations or having some BDOs in. Um but then why aren't we sharing that with our potential clients? Yeah. You know, from a commercial viewpoint, it it's crazy to be honest. And that doesn't miss like it's just that that awareness of the overall threat picture should be shared much more than it currently is, and it's just frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

So, what do you guys do then to share? Do you you said you're not really like into the social media piece. Um I mean, did I hear right that you were on a panel today as well?

SPEAKER_00 9:37

I was on a panel today.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

You're immersing yourself in sharing some information.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

I'm I'm getting out there slowly but surely. Um so from my viewpoint, um I just I like to come in, highlight the problems, drop a grenade and walk out again. Um everyone. But yeah. Yeah, let's just a disruptor in a positive way. Yeah, and then kind of like I'll revisit and be like, well, why hasn't this changed? You know, so within um within research, people have been pointing these problems out for years within research, but there's a huge disconnect between academia and industry. Um action, you know, and everyone kind of whinges about the other one, but then no one actually just kind of gets everyone in the room and goes, Well, actually, do you know what? If you all work together by industry, if you told academia what research you want and what would be really handy for you, they would be able to then come in, do that research, and then you would have that information that you want and need, but that's not happening. And then you've got academia going, well, this would be interesting, finding out some really fascinating things, um, but then it just sits in a journal and no one actually reads it until you get someone like me who kind of goes, Well, we've got all this information, I've got all this other stuff, you know, all the uh operational protocols that kind of go against what all the research says. So why are you not all just linking up and why is it not why are you not using research to inform protocol and vice versa?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

I do wonder sometimes is it because some people or some organisations um they don't need to, you know, like so the job still gets done, so you know that's like you sound like you care about it, and so I suppose this is where I love that there's a robot dog, like I've been trying to ignore it. It's brilliant, um but you know, I think this is where the human element comes in, doesn't it? Because um that you know these live events actually are taking care of human beings, and so as human beings, we should take a level of care. I was talking to Annie just now before um before your session as well, very similar to yourself, it's that there is a passion and a care for the output and things, and and you're right, the only way we are gonna get there is that look, okay, I get you're over there and we're over here, but actually we're not gonna move forward and have these great best practices and so on if we don't share that information. Exactly. Is there a platform that's doing it proactively? Do you think there's a gap for that that um maybe a particular association should be leading? What do you think needs to happen now that that's that could happen easily?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

So there was we used to have the National Events Intelligence Unit or Op Gothic even before that, so that was very much police-led. Um the NEIU, when they were in existence, they were fantastic, so anyone could submit reports and because it was police-led they had access to police databases, uh police data, and then could issue alerts as well. Um that moved force and has somewhat to a point fizzled out. Um they now only rely on police information and it's moved from it used to be weekly, uh, it's moved to monthly updates. So we've kind of shifted from that being able to use the intelligence proactively so it's now almost just reactive and uh, oh yeah, we had that as well. Um so it's frustrating because it was such a fantastic resource. So I think there's definitely a gap. Um, who could fill that? I don't think it necessarily has to be police led, I think it could be organisation led. But I think it should be.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Everything live events. Yep. I mean, we're in the private security sector right here. There's plenty of associations. Yep. Come on, pick one, who can be as task. I can't I can't be favoured. We'll throw it out there then. If it gives me a job. Associations, what are we saying? Respond to this. Who's first to comment? Who should be doing it?

SPEAKER_00 13:32

You tell us. But that police the police buying would be really handy, uh, just that overall threat picture. Um but then you could also have like that have input from places like the loop. So you'd get that drugs awareness as well, like from ground level.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

You edit here first, we know what the issue is, someone needs to jump on it. Katie's ready to get involved. Um Katie legend. Last thing before we wrap up, there was an overarching need for us. Oh my god, the robot dog is on the front legs at the next level. Um we of course want to. I say it's not really start, we need to continue to, but we need to more so attract fresh talent into the security industry. More times than not, people fell into it or uh, you know, I think about mine. I was like someone I was speaking to earlier, I applied for jobs and it just happened to be a job in the industry. I wasn't looking for the industry. What would be your advice to whether it's young talent, women, whatever, why should they come into the industry?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yes. Um that's not what I thought you were gonna ask. I thought you were gonna say, how can we attract people? Do that, you can do that. What do you think? What do you think we should do? Um look at what's not working and look at why people aren't joining. So there's lots of things. Pivot that into a solution then, right? So, you know, the old ways of working where you're doing 12, 18 hour shifts, people don't necessarily want to do that anymore because you know it it's not healthy, it's not good for you. Not everyone can do that. You look at things like childcare, you know, if that's reality. Yeah, if people can't do a shift that starts at five o'clock in the afternoon because they have to pick their kids up and they won't get back in time, then actually is there an option for them to do a shorter shift? Um especially things like control room shifts where you're typically there before the first deployment. No windows, and you're there well after the last deployment, that's a long time, and actually your decision making within that environment tends to drop off with fatigue as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

So making making the roles themselves more attractive so that actually they by default will want to oh yeah, did you know that in the security industry you can get shifts that work around childcare? Boom, that's a campaign by itself. If every other industry can do it, why can't it? And we keep joking about that too, like having a marketing campaign for the security industry that attracts people coming in. And actually, I think you just sat on there's a sweet little low-hanging fruit, let's just do one. Let's literally right now go and target mothers.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Let's do it. You say that, so I know of one uh training provider who is offering Diaz courses purely within um school hours. There you go. So that mums can drop the kids off, come and do a course and they're done by the time that you know they need to pick them up.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Right, we heard it here first, Katie's idea. And if you think you already had it, we'll come and speak to Katie and me because we'll support it, we're all about all the things. Um lovely. I'm so glad we met. I mean no doubt it won't be the last time. And um yeah, thank you very much. Thank you, thank you for having me.