“The War on Wildlife — And the Science of Coexistence” Guest - Camilla Fox

Part 1: The War on Wildlife — And the Science of Coexistence

In this powerful first installment of a two-part conversation, Fairlie Arrow and Stacy James sits down with Camilla Fox, founder and executive director of Project Coyote to uncover the hidden war being waged against America’s wildlife… and the science proving there is a better way forward. Camilla shares her deeply personal journey into wildlife advocacy, shaped by a childhood rooted in compassion for animals and more than three decades spent on the front lines of conservation. From her early love of wild canines to founding Project Coyote in 2008, she explains why coyotes, one of North America’s most misunderstood and persecuted predators, became the organization’s flagship species. We explore why coyotes are not villains, but vital ecosystem engineers. A single coyote can consume up to 1,800 rodents per year, helping maintain balance without poisons or pesticides. Yet despite their ecological importance, they remain one of the most targeted animals in the country. In this episode, we also expose a little known federal program that kills more than a million native animals annually using taxpayer dollars, often through inhumane and scientifically ineffective methods. From leg-hold traps and aerial gunning to poisons and snares, most Americans have no idea how wildlife management policies are actually implemented. But this is not just a story of conflict.

Camilla reveals a groundbreaking success story from Marin County, California, where lethal predator control was replaced with proven non-lethal coexistence strategies,  including range riders, livestock guardian animals, fox lights, and better land stewardship. The results challenge decades of conventional thinking and demonstrate that coexistence isn’t a naïve dream it’s practical, humane, and effective. This episode asks a fundamental question: If science shows that killing predators doesn’t work, are we willing to change?

Links

Billy & Molly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkoNeESBH94

Love Over Money - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rbY_r9eQyU

Human & Other Animals - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NZZOeNNYqg

Project Coyote Films - https://projectcoyote.org/act/films/

Get involved - Advocacy Hub - https://projectcoyote.org/act/advocacy-hub/

Coexistence Resources - https://projectcoyote.org/act/downloadable-resources/

Listen to Part 2: From Outrage to Action — How One Person Can Change the World for Wildlife.

Transcript

[01:00:00:01 - 01:00:16:14]
Fairlie
 Our guest today has spent her life listening to the wild, especially to the voices that are most often silenced. Camilla Fox is a pioneer of compassionate conservation, working to protect native carnivores and to show us that coexistence isn't a theory, it's a responsibility.

[01:00:16:14 - 01:00:20:13]
Fairlie
 This episode is about truth, the wild, unfiltered kind.

[01:00:20:13 - 01:00:38:21]
Fairlie
 It's about our desperate need for coexistence and the cost of misunderstanding the creatures who share this planet with us. But it's also about hope, about the people fighting on the front lines to protect the wild, to heal what's been broken, and to remind us what's still worth saving.

[01:00:38:21 - 01:00:53:22]
Fairlie
 a mission-driven podcast exploring the pulse between humanity and nature, and the stories that reconnect us to the ore of our wildlife and the lands all of us call home.

[01:00:53:22 - 01:00:57:09]
 (Dramatic Music)

[01:00:57:09 - 01:01:04:22]
Camilla
 you for having me. Excited for the conversation.

[01:01:04:22 - 01:01:08:15]
Fairlie
 You are very welcome. Stacey James, how are you doing?

[01:01:08:15 - 01:01:13:08]
Stacy
 I'm doing fantastic. I am back in Kansas and

[01:01:13:08 - 01:01:16:07]
Stacy
 the wildlands.

[01:01:16:07 - 01:01:21:12]
Stacy
 Camilla, where are you right now? Where are you located?

[01:01:21:12 - 01:01:25:06]
Camilla
 I'm in Marin County, just north of San Francisco. Oh, nice. Beautiful Marin.

[01:01:25:06 - 01:01:25:18]
Speaker 5
 Beautiful.

[01:01:25:18 - 01:01:37:14]
Camilla
 little Marin bubble, as we call it, and I love when I go deal with the horrors of how we treat wildlife out of Marin, out of California. I love coming back to my beautiful county here.

[01:01:37:14 - 01:01:40:09]
Stacy
 Well, Fairlie wishes she was in Marin with

[01:01:40:09 - 01:01:40:15]
Stacy
 you.

[01:01:40:15 - 01:01:56:02]
Stacy
 On a wildlife advocacy note, how important is it to be able to spend some time in a place that regenerates and rejuvenates you in your spirit so that you can go out and do the hard work that you do?

[01:01:56:02 - 01:02:03:06]
Stacy
 Because on a daily basis you're seeing things and hearing about things that are horrific and challenging to the human spirit.

[01:02:03:06 - 01:02:08:05]
Stacy
 Yeah, so that's great that you're in a place that replenishes you.

[01:02:08:05 - 01:02:19:07]
Camilla
 Critically important. We were just talking with our staff about compassion fatigue and burnout and how common that is in this movement. I try to encourage all of our staff to find

[01:02:19:07 - 01:02:43:13]
Camilla
 whatever ways they need to go and rejuvenate their souls. For me, it's definitely wild nature and I'm very blessed to live in a place where there's lots of beauty, lots of trails. My dog and me go out every day and take a little walk and that just replenishes. But sometimes I go into deep wild nature and need that on a sustainable regular basis to keep doing this work. Yeah, absolutely.

[01:02:43:13 - 01:02:54:21]
Fairlie
 when did you start Project Coyote? And I guess why did you start it? What did you see as the need that you could help change?

[01:02:54:21 - 01:03:04:01]
Camilla
 So I founded Project Coyote in 2008 and I had worked both in the animal and environmental protection movements my entire life.

[01:03:04:01 - 01:03:07:14]
Camilla
 I grew up just really loving all animals.

[01:03:07:14 - 01:03:16:22]
Camilla
 I loved insects in particular, but all animals. And I have a father who studied canine ethology, wolves,

[01:03:16:22 - 01:03:19:08]
Camilla
 coyotes, foxes, domestic dogs,

[01:03:19:08 - 01:03:22:13]
Camilla
 the Indian Dole he did his graduate research on.

[01:03:22:13 - 01:03:28:10]
Camilla
 So I was always surrounded by canines and then my mother did cat rescue.

[01:03:28:10 - 01:03:33:17]
Camilla
 So just from a young age, I was very lucky to have parents who instilled in me

[01:03:33:17 - 01:03:44:07]
Camilla
 appreciation for all beings and compassion and empathy for all sentient life. And I knew from a young age that I really just wanted to protect animals.

[01:03:44:07 - 01:04:18:20]
Camilla
 in high school, I went to a public high school in Maine, I challenged the dissection that they were requiring in high school. And that was sort of my first foray into advocacy and that sort of paved the way for others who didn't want to dissect animals. And then at Boston University in college, I co-founded the Students for the Ethical Treatment of Animals with a dear friend. And I really sort of had my vision there that my career path was to protect the earth and animals.

[01:04:18:20 - 01:04:35:17]
Camilla
 And shortly thereafter, I moved out to California and got involved in both animal protection, environmental protection, worked for Humane Farming Association, the Furbear Defenders, and then Rainforest Action Network, where I really got

[01:04:35:17 - 01:04:39:22]
Camilla
 chops in advocacy and campaign work.

[01:04:39:22 - 01:04:47:13]
Camilla
 And then fast forward to 10 years at the Animal Protection Institute, when I started working on particularly coyote issues,

[01:04:47:13 - 01:04:48:19]
Camilla
 wild carnivore issues.

[01:04:48:19 - 01:04:59:14]
Camilla
 And it was then that I really saw a need and a niche for an organization that would advocate on behalf of North America's most persecuted, misunderstood, maligned wild carnivores.

[01:04:59:14 - 01:05:07:16]
Camilla
 And at that time, I personally decided to go back to grad school, got a graduate degree in wildlife ecology, policy and conservation.

[01:05:07:16 - 01:05:38:18]
Camilla
 And it was during that time that I formulated the idea to start Project Coyote. And in fact, some of my, my grad school committee members became our founding science advisory board members. And many of them are still with us today. So that was now 16 years ago, that I started Project Coyote. And we've grown across the country and really have a fantastic, passionate, dedicated team. And we continue to expand our tentacles across the country.

[01:05:38:18 - 01:05:42:09]
Fairlie
 Can we talk a little bit about coyotes

[01:05:42:09 - 01:05:51:22]
Fairlie
 your feelings towards coyotes and why people should, you know, not only just accept them in the ecosystem, because they're incredibly important.

[01:05:51:22 - 01:06:04:23]
Fairlie
 but also, if you're going to live in areas where animals like that are, because you want to live in those beautiful places, then we have to make those exceptions. And we have to learn to live with these animals

[01:06:04:23 - 01:06:10:12]
Fairlie
 not persecute them because they come into our backyards.

[01:06:10:12 - 01:06:14:19]
Fairlie
 what is it that drew you to specifically coyotes?

[01:06:14:19 - 01:06:20:12]
Camilla
 Well, I think I saw my first coyote in Joshua Tree when I had moved out to California.

[01:06:20:12 - 01:06:28:09]
Camilla
 And it was actually a coyote that was a bit habituated, meaning that it had probably he or she had been fed by people

[01:06:28:09 - 01:06:29:07]
Camilla
 out at

[01:06:29:07 - 01:06:31:02]
Camilla
 center. And

[01:06:31:02 - 01:06:40:04]
Camilla
 had a chance to just watch that coyote for, I would say, upwards of an hour or more. And I was just so intrigued by the animal,

[01:06:40:04 - 01:06:43:04]
Camilla
 the intelligence, the weariness.

[01:06:43:04 - 01:07:00:10]
Camilla
 And that was way back before working for the Animal Protection Institute. And I came to learn that this animal is not only ubiquitous in so many rural and urban areas, but really our most persecuted carnivore in North America.

[01:07:00:10 - 01:07:18:14]
Camilla
 And one that despite the fact that we have been waging war against coyotes since really we stepped foot on this continent, they still persist and they still thrive even in the most harsh environments. And of course, as you mentioned, even in the busiest densely populated cities.

[01:07:18:14 - 01:07:42:03]
Camilla
 So in starting Project Coyote, the reason why I chose the coyote as our flagship or icon species is because I really believe that if we can shift the way we view and treat coyotes, we can shift the way we view and treat all wild animals because they are, I think, one of the most difficult in terms of public perception,

[01:07:42:03 - 01:07:43:18]
Camilla
 real or perceived conflicts

[01:07:43:18 - 01:07:47:07]
Camilla
 agricultural arenas and urban areas.

[01:07:47:07 - 01:08:00:23]
Camilla
 And also, they're often the most or the first predator that anyone encounters, particularly in urban areas. Many people have never seen or experienced a predator before. And so all of a sudden,

[01:08:00:23 - 01:08:07:15]
Camilla
 people move to urban areas and counter this animal and understandably often have some visceral fear.

[01:08:07:15 - 01:08:24:10]
Camilla
 And so that's one of the reasons why we really focus on coyotes is recognizing that we do need public education to teach people that they're not a huge threat. Yes, they can cause conflicts, but there are ways to mitigate those conflicts.

[01:08:24:10 - 01:08:38:22]
Camilla
 And that they also play a really important ecological role. People don't recognize often that they are natural rodent controllers and one coyote can consume upwards of 1800 rodents in a year.

[01:08:38:22 - 01:08:47:21]
Camilla
 So we use that example as you don't need rodenticides, deadly rodenticides that have a big impact on the ecosystem and other species.

[01:08:47:21 - 01:08:53:00]
Camilla
 So there are all these different facets of coyotes that I think

[01:08:53:00 - 01:09:00:23]
Camilla
 something that's wondrous. And I think we've attracted people who sort of understand what a uniquely special animal this is.

[01:09:00:23 - 01:09:07:12]
Camilla
 You know, when you look at Native American lore and stories and myths, there are so many stories about

[01:09:07:12 - 01:09:11:22]
Camilla
 many different characteristics and facets of coyotes from their trickster nature.

[01:09:11:22 - 01:09:15:00]
Camilla
 Many tribes revere them as their ancestor.

[01:09:15:00 - 01:09:36:10]
Camilla
 So pulling all that together was part of our process of making coyote our flagship species for Project Coyote. And we have lots of programs, lots of campaigns around coexistence. We work with cities and counties throughout the US, you know, showing people how they can coexist, how they can mitigate conflicts,

[01:09:36:10 - 01:09:44:02]
Camilla
 But it's challenging, particularly in agricultural areas where they have been vilified, killed in mass numbers.

[01:09:44:02 - 01:09:45:01]
Camilla
 As I mentioned,

[01:09:45:01 - 01:09:50:07]
Camilla
 we estimate at least one coyote every year in the US alone is killed by

[01:09:50:07 - 01:09:55:01]
Camilla
 government agencies, ranchers, individuals, you know, down in Southern California.

[01:09:55:01 - 01:10:00:21]
Camilla
 Private contractors are hired at taxpayer expense to kill them, generally with snares.

[01:10:00:21 - 01:10:14:17]
Camilla
 They're often gassed with CO2 chambers, just horribly cruel methods that, in the big picture, when you step back, are not effective either. And we know this through science and decades of science that the ways that we've been killing

[01:10:14:17 - 01:10:24:08]
Camilla
 and other wild animals are not only ethically unjustifiably, but unjustifiable, but also simply not effective.

[01:10:24:08 - 01:10:26:09]
Stacy
 Camilla, do you know,

[01:10:26:09 - 01:10:30:08]
Stacy
 any idea how much federal money is spent,

[01:10:30:08 - 01:10:33:05]
Stacy
 like taxpayer money is spent

[01:10:33:05 - 01:10:33:23]
Stacy
 coyotes?

[01:10:33:23 - 01:10:41:00]
Camilla
 Yeah, so there's an agency called the US Department of Agriculture's Wildlife Services, euphemistically called Wildlife Services.

[01:10:41:00 - 01:10:53:12]
Camilla
 They used to be called Animal Damage Control, and then realized that that name was not helping them. So they hired a very expensive PR firm and changed all their terminology that included their name.

[01:10:53:12 - 01:10:56:20]
Camilla
 And so this agency kills approximately,

[01:10:56:20 - 01:10:58:12]
Camilla
 this last year, I think it was

[01:10:58:12 - 01:11:17:04]
Camilla
 almost 1.5 million animals at taxpayer expense, and to the tune of more than 100 million taxpayer dollars every year. So that's just one agency, that's our federal agency. Again, most people have never heard of it, USDA Wildlife Services, they sometimes confuse it with the Fish and Wildlife Service.

[01:11:17:04 - 01:11:20:08]
Camilla
 And this agency has been in existence since

[01:11:20:08 - 01:11:26:11]
Camilla
 early 1900s, when the federal government basically passed the Animal Damage Control Act,

[01:11:26:11 - 01:11:27:06]
Camilla
 and

[01:11:27:06 - 01:11:40:13]
Camilla
 for taxpayer dollars to go towards killing native wildlife. And I want to mention that that's often done at the behest of ranchers and farmers to ostensibly reduce conflicts.

[01:11:40:13 - 01:11:52:05]
Camilla
 But again, this is an agency that relies on incredibly inhumane, indiscriminate tools. They still to this day, they rely on leg-hole traps, snares, aerial gunning, poisons.

[01:11:52:05 - 01:11:59:18]
Stacy
 What types of animals, so 1.5 million animals killed approximately, killed annually,

[01:11:59:18 - 01:12:04:05]
Stacy
 in the name of damage control, what types of animals would that be?

[01:12:04:05 - 01:12:17:07]
Camilla
 So in the carnivore suite, coyotes are the most targeted by far. But the other targeted animals include wolves, bears, bobcats, foxes, beaver, crows,

[01:12:17:07 - 01:12:27:23]
Camilla
 variety of animals that, or birds I should say, that are considered threats in agricultural areas. Those are often poisoned with a horrible poison called DRC 1339.

[01:12:27:23 - 01:12:41:14]
Camilla
 So a whole host of animals, I mean, almost every native wild animal in this country is targeted by this agency. But there are certain ones that are heavily targeted, like coyotes,

[01:12:41:14 - 01:12:42:05]
Camilla
 predators,

[01:12:42:05 - 01:12:47:16]
Camilla
 the ones again, that are deemed a threat, particularly by ranchers and farmers.

[01:12:47:16 - 01:12:54:14]
Fairlie
 And I got a one to two, how many people, how many taxpayers in this country realize that, where their money is going?

[01:12:54:14 - 01:13:03:23]
Camilla
 Very few. And that's where the education is absolutely critical. And then reform efforts, and I can talk a little bit about what we do for reform. But

[01:13:03:23 - 01:13:16:06]
Camilla
 to starting Project Coyote in Marin County, we learned that Marin, along with Sonoma and Mendocino counties, were going to be testing grounds for a very deadly poison called Compound 1080.

[01:13:16:06 - 01:13:21:13]
Camilla
 And this was a poison that was used in Nazi Germany as a rodenticide.

[01:13:21:13 - 01:13:27:19]
Camilla
 it was deemed effective to control carnivores, particularly coyotes.

[01:13:27:19 - 01:14:00:13]
Camilla
 So that federal agency then called Animal Damage Control started using 1080 specifically to target predators. At that time, what they would do is lace a carcass, a cow or a sheep, with this 1080 and literally put it out on the range, any animal that came in and consumed that carcass would die. So we would see imperiled species consuming and their populations depleting bald eagles.

[01:14:00:13 - 01:14:06:07]
Camilla
 Finally, the government and actually under the Nixon administration realized that this was

[01:14:06:07 - 01:14:13:06]
Camilla
 incredibly detrimental to wildlife and lots of non-target animals. So the Nixon administration banned 1080,

[01:14:13:06 - 01:14:19:08]
Camilla
 and then the agricultural lobby put pressure on the Reagan administration.

[01:14:19:08 - 01:14:28:15]
Camilla
 legalized 1080 to be used in something called a livestock protection collar, where these collars are put on sacrificial lambs, goats,

[01:14:28:15 - 01:14:42:13]
Camilla
 the idea being that any predator that attacks that animal will burst the poison pouches and then die. But the science showed that it takes upwards of 13 hours for a coyote to succumb to that poison.

[01:14:42:13 - 01:14:44:00]
Camilla
 So incredibly cruel.

[01:14:44:00 - 01:14:49:21]
Camilla
 Coming back to Marin and Sonoma, Mendocino, we were going to be testing grounds for those livestock protection collars.

[01:14:49:21 - 01:14:57:18]
Camilla
 formed a local coalition of organizations to try to ban that poison.

[01:14:57:18 - 01:15:15:05]
Camilla
 It led to a lot of research about what was going on in our county. And what we learned was not only were these collars being used, but snares, leg hold traps, other types of poisons being used to kill our native bobcats, foxes, coyotes, whole variety of species,

[01:15:15:05 - 01:15:20:14]
Camilla
 again, largely at the behest of ranchers and farmers in these North Bay counties.

[01:15:20:14 - 01:15:35:14]
Camilla
 we did was we brought that information to our county board of supervisors, and we quickly learned that most of them had never heard of this agency, nor were they aware of the methods being employed in our own backyards.

[01:15:35:14 - 01:15:41:17]
Camilla
 And we found a couple of champions within those supervisors who said, "Is there a better way?

[01:15:41:17 - 01:15:48:14]
Camilla
 Can we offer something for our ranchers and farmers that doesn't involve this indiscriminate, cruel killing?"

[01:15:48:14 - 01:15:49:04]
Camilla
 And so

[01:15:49:04 - 01:16:04:08]
Camilla
 part of what I did was I worked with our Department of Agriculture, and I was actually getting my master's thesis at the time, and decided to do a comparative analysis of the previous program under Wildlife Services, the lethal program,

[01:16:04:08 - 01:16:09:15]
Camilla
 and benchmarked it, did a comparative analysis with our non-lethal program.

[01:16:09:15 - 01:16:21:22]
Camilla
 And this was, I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but our supervisors finally decided in the year 2000 to end the contract with Wildlife Services,

[01:16:21:22 - 01:16:35:21]
Camilla
 adopt a non-lethal program, and that program essentially took the money that paid a federal trapper and put it into a non-lethal program to assist ranchers with implementation of non-lethal methods.

[01:16:35:21 - 01:16:39:20]
Fairlie
 So can I just jump in and ask you what the non-lethal methods are?

[01:16:39:20 - 01:16:40:02]
Camilla
 Absolutely.

[01:16:40:02 - 01:16:41:08]
Camilla
 fencing,

[01:16:41:08 - 01:16:43:02]
Camilla
 corrals for

[01:16:43:02 - 01:16:46:23]
Camilla
 animals, so bringing them in at night, because they're most vulnerable

[01:16:46:23 - 01:16:49:16]
Camilla
 they're born and they're left out on the range.

[01:16:49:16 - 01:16:51:14]
Camilla
 Various techniques called

[01:16:51:14 - 01:16:56:23]
Camilla
 fox lights, where it's a motion-activated light that scares

[01:16:56:23 - 01:16:57:17]
Camilla
 predators.

[01:16:57:17 - 01:17:07:17]
Camilla
 Flattery, which is a practice that was used in Eastern Europe as a method to deter wolves from preying on livestock.

[01:17:07:17 - 01:17:11:05]
Camilla
 So many methods actually have historical

[01:17:11:05 - 01:17:16:02]
Camilla
 in South America and Europe that are being brought back

[01:17:16:02 - 01:17:20:10]
Camilla
 they're so effective, and they're often cheaper and easier to use.

[01:17:20:10 - 01:17:22:03]
Fairlie
 I saw a film that

[01:17:22:03 - 01:17:26:16]
Fairlie
 Patagonia, I think, did. It was called Range Rider, and it was a short,

[01:17:26:16 - 01:17:27:07]
Fairlie
 10-minute film.

[01:17:27:07 - 01:17:29:03]
Fairlie
 working, right?

[01:17:29:03 - 01:17:30:20]
Fairlie
 these guys that

[01:17:30:22 - 01:17:33:06]
Fairlie
 cattlemen are hiring.

[01:17:33:06 - 01:17:43:14]
Fairlie
 called the Range Riders, and they go out on horseback, and that is their job. 24-7 and they rotate is they just ride the fence lines.

[01:17:43:14 - 01:17:45:06]
Fairlie
 carnivores,

[01:17:45:06 - 01:17:48:18]
Fairlie
 don't want that conflict with humans, so they take off.

[01:17:48:18 - 01:17:50:07]
Fairlie
 And it's working.

[01:17:50:07 - 01:17:52:20]
Fairlie
 biggest complaint from

[01:17:52:20 - 01:17:55:10]
Fairlie
 cattlemen's association and

[01:17:55:10 - 01:17:58:18]
Fairlie
 was that it's an extra cost that they don't need.

[01:17:58:18 - 01:18:01:00]
Fairlie
 I saw this in a film,

[01:18:01:00 - 01:18:06:01]
Fairlie
 way, that you did, Camilla, and I stole this, and I have used this a lot.

[01:18:06:01 - 01:18:07:15]
Fairlie
 I can't remember the woman, but she had

[01:18:07:15 - 01:18:10:09]
Fairlie
 big sheep dogs that were protecting

[01:18:10:09 - 01:18:15:00]
Fairlie
 And she said, "It's not about how we

[01:18:15:00 - 01:18:15:20]
Fairlie
 coexist.

[01:18:15:20 - 01:18:19:03]
Fairlie
 It's, are we willing to coexist?"

[01:18:19:03 - 01:18:25:04]
Camilla
 Absolutely. I think coexistence requires

[01:18:25:04 - 01:18:26:19]
Camilla
 tolerance and acceptance.

[01:18:26:19 - 01:18:53:00]
Camilla
 think this whole program that the federal government has been subsidizing for so long has essentially ensured that ranchers are dependent on this program for conflict mitigation, again, because it's tax-subsidized. And what we've seen is the methods you mentioned, the range riders, the livestock guard animals that includes dogs and llamas and donkeys.

[01:18:53:00 - 01:19:04:14]
Camilla
 Historically, those have never been subsidized by the federal government or any agencies. So ranchers have been reliant on this program that has emphasized the lethal and indiscriminate tools.

[01:19:04:14 - 01:19:17:20]
Camilla
 And when you're brought up generationally, just dependent on this form of subsidy, it's hard to make that shift. And that shift also needs to come from our government agencies.

[01:19:17:20 - 01:20:02:06]
Camilla
 They need, as we did in Marin, we shifted that paradigm. We said, instead of using that money to pay a federal trapper to underwrite the indiscriminate tools that he uses out in the field, let's apply that towards an innovative, non-lethal program that supports the ranchers, but instead using these more future humane tools. And again, some of those are, you know, old tools like the livestock guard animals, the llamas come from South America, the livestock guard dogs were used for centuries in Eastern Europe. And so it's bringing back some of these methodologies that we've known, shepherding, the range riders, we've known are effective,

[01:20:02:06 - 01:20:05:04]
Camilla
 but that haven't been subsidized by our agencies.

[01:20:05:04 - 01:20:11:15]
Camilla
 So we're starting to see a shift with that, I will share that, you know, we have a good working coalition of organizations

[01:20:11:15 - 01:20:30:14]
Camilla
 are trying to reform this agency and propel them to shift away from the dependence on the lethal and indiscriminate tools and start to support ranchers and farmers with these non-lethal methods. So there is movement there. It's just, it's taken decades of coalition building,

[01:20:30:14 - 01:20:31:16]
Camilla
 sometimes litigation.

[01:20:31:16 - 01:20:49:06]
Camilla
 And for us, you know, working with the individual ranchers, which I think is absolutely fundamentally critical to show them that there is an alternative way. But we need more, we need more support from our, you know, federal and state agencies to really propel that that systemic reform.

[01:20:49:06 - 01:21:01:21]
Fairlie
 That's the end of part one of our conversation with Camilla Fox. Part two will be coming along shortly so thanks for joining us. Stacey, thank you Camilla's thank you and we will see you on the next one.

[01:21:01:21 - 01:21:11:02]
Fairlie
 coexistence isn't some faraway dream. It's happening right here, right often just beyond our fences or under the same sky that we're sleeping beneath.

[01:21:11:02 - 01:21:26:08]
Fairlie
 truth is our wildlife, our animal neighbors are still out there trying to live their lives, raise their young and survive in this shrinking space we all share. They don't need our fear, they need our understanding, they need space, respect and a voice.

[01:21:26:08 - 01:21:32:13]
Fairlie
 wherever you live, whether it's a city block, a desert canyon or the edge of a forest, look around, listen,

[01:21:32:13 - 01:21:51:08]
Fairlie
 learn who your wild neighbors are and do one small thing this week to protect them. Because when we protect wildlife we're also protecting ourselves, the air we breathe, the water we drink and the wildness that keeps our hearts beating. I'm Fairly Arrow and thanks for listening to On the Wild Edge.

[01:21:51:08 - 01:22:11:20]
 (Dramatic Music)