In and Out Talks Remote Podcast 4: Cameron Linck

On this episode of the In & Out Talks Podcast, powered by Tier One Performance, we sit down with Cameron Linck, a Kingwood, Texas native whose athletic journey is built on versatility, competitiveness, and relentless work ethic.

Cameron played alongside Jordan and Mitch during his time at Kingwood High School, where he stood out as a multi-sport athlete. He continued his baseball career as a pitcher at Hill College, before taking his talents to the next level at Louisiana Tech, where he competed in both football and baseball — a rare and impressive feat.

In this episode, Cameron shares his experiences balancing two sports at the collegiate level, the mindset required to compete at a high level in multiple arenas, and the lessons learned through his journey. From high school athletics to college competition, this conversation dives into discipline, adaptability, and what it truly takes to stand out.

🎙️ Tune in for a unique perspective on being a multi-sport athlete and navigating the path to high-level college athletics.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Five, four, three, four.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Guys, welcome back to the In N Out Talks Podcast, powered by Tier One Performance. Your host, Mitch Metulia, Jordan Powell here. Today's special guest, Cameron Link, Louisiana Tech Baseball legend. Also grew up with Jordan and I, where we had the honor of not only being friends with him, but also teammates with him at Keenewood Park High School. Also a Juteco bandit as well. So uh Cam, welcome to the show, brother. It's an honor to have you on, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Thanks for having me, guys. It's fun to uh catch up and then obviously share my point of view of you guys and uh great teammates and excited to spend some time together, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Absolutely, brother. First and foremost, just you know, the way we start things off, right, is letting our audience know a little bit about yourself, where you're from, you know, a little bit about your sports background and your upbringing, and uh yeah, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Well, let's see. So started out um born and raised Houston. We moved off to Austin when I was young and then moved back to Kingwood um in 2001, actually. And um grew up in Kingwood, grew up in uh um playing baseball, football, doing all the sports, trying to chase down uh these two legends. But um yeah, I I at some point in you know middle school, into high school, I started realizing that baseball and football were kind of a passion of mine and um wanted to follow it. So uh went into high school and obviously played played baseball at Kingwood Park where I was teammates with both Jordan and Mitch and then um went to Louisiana Tech where I was there for two years. Or I'm sorry, went to Hill College for two years, was teammates with um Kyle Loson, who was a uh Kingwood Park teammate of these guys as well. He actually brought me over. I remember when I was getting somewhat recruited by Hill College. That's even like generous to say. It was really just Kyle kind of calling on me and saying, Hey, you know, I think you should come here and develop. And I trusted him, so went over to Louisiana or went over to Hill College for two years, and then from there went over to Louisiana Tech, where I was fortunate enough to play for two years, and I ended up playing football for a year as well. Uh and then moved off, got into the the world of college athletics, and thought I wanted to be an athletic director. So worked at Colorado State, worked at NC State, and then most recently transitioned out of college athletics as well back at the end of 2024. Um thrilled to jump in with you guys, have a good convo, catch up, tell some more stories, but also maybe my point of view as well of kind of what the current state of college athletics look like, and um, and then also, you know, my my kind of background as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Happy to share some of that. Dude, we appreciate it, brother. And just to kind of rewind back to your middle school high school days, I remember you being a three-sport athlete at one point in time. And you are an underrated pickup basketball player. What a lot of people don't know is that you could you could ball.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Well, I don't know about all that, but um when we were growing up, um Mitch and I and a group of other guys would go up to a local elementary school and we'd play eight foot. Um so we'd play on eight foot uh eight foot rims, and I'm no basketball player compared to Jordan. Like the dude is absolutely our basketball player on this call. But uh he when we were at eight-foot rims in like middle school, it didn't matter who you were, you thought you were the best basketball player in the world. So um at five foot six, you know, maybe a hundred pounds, I thought I could play a little bit, but enjoyed playing basketball, but really focused on on football and baseball kind of into beginning of high school and then later on as well.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Yeah, you're really dumbing down how athletic you were because when we got into high school, you would run you would play pickup with us too.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

We would.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

You would ball out. Like, there's no there's no way, like you could definitely have played varsity. Don't let don't let Cam. I liked it, man.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Basketball was such a fun and we had a good crew, but like basketball is such a foundationally like I feel like good sport as well in regards to developing a different skill set. Like I always argue with some buddies, I think basketball might have some of the best athletes. No, it's not an understatement saying that.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

You you can close. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I'm wrong in that. Yeah, I'm not saying that I'm not saying all basketball players are the best athletes, but there's definitely some basketball players that can translate or play pretty much anything they want.

unknown 5:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

You know, especially if they had to drive like they did for basketball. But that I think that no, I think that's a very fair statement. I just think our sport is extremely skill-based and hard. Yeah, for sure. For sure. One of the hardest ones to play.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

But that's the thing, is like our whole group growing up, right? Like, we played sports outside all year round, every day of the week. There really was no like staying indoors and playing video games for long periods of time. There wasn't any of that. And I think that's the big difference between today, today's day and age, and then like obviously when we grew up, like our parents kind of would kick us out of the house. It was really the last generation of that, I feel like. Like, hey, be back for dinner, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Um, yeah, and I feel like uh when um well, I don't know, when I think about like myself as a dad nowadays, like I definitely want to try and find a group of folks that like or friends that um you know pushed each other. Like I feel like whenever I view my time growing up, my development as not only an athlete, but also just as a human, like I was around people who challenged me, made me better, um, you know, not only just on the field, but off the field as well.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Absolutely, man. And going into high school, right? Like you just focused on baseball and football. You're a wide receiver in football, and in baseball, you made Varsity your sophomore year and were our ace for sophomore year. And you had a nasty hammer, bro. Nasty curveball. So like walk us through that, man. Like, was that something that you just naturally developed, or was it something that you kind of worked on and uh you know, walk us through that?

SPEAKER_02 7:21

You know, I um I grew up and I'd say my development as a PO like I always threw like different pitches while I was playing. I always tried to play around, but I always growing up in Houston, I grew up a Roy Oswald fan. And early 2000s into mid-2000s, like Roy O always had like a 12-6. Like you you view his 12-6 in Houston, he was always a flat fastball and also a 12-6 guy. I um I wanted to kind of have that same pitch. And so I've I wanna I remember going to my stepdad and and saying something, watching a ball game at some point when I was like, I don't know, eight years old, and I was like, like, how does he throw that? And he was like, he karate chops, he karate chops overhead. And I was like, what in the world are you talking about? I was like, you don't know anything about pitching. I was like, I was like, karate chop. I was like, this is not right, but he wasn't wrong, right? Like, if you think about the development of that pitch, I wanted to always focus on trying to get on top of a baseball. So um I learned that pitch probably early on, like even like 10, 12 years old. Like I remember being in tournament ball, and this is probably bad advice for some of these younger guys, but like throwing it just for fun. Um, and so like I always kind of had a really good feel for it. And so going into high school, my um I would say that pitch was almost more comfortable than a fastball for me. Um, you know, I would throw it in a 2-0 count as a get-me over and try and get ahead. So when I got to varsity early on, you know, as a sophomore in high school, I was behind some other guys that already kind of had developed this pitch. I was trying to learn. I was, you know, had good catcher, um, a developed catcher at that point who was a senior. And uh when I would throw that pitch, like I always felt like he was coaching me to to to on how to do it a little bit a little bit better, right? So I feel like whenever I I made the jump to varsity, my sophomore year, that pitch accelerated. I didn't necessarily learn how to pitch until probably a junior or senior year, or even whenever I got into junior college. But um, yeah, that that pitch definitely kind of separated, I'd say, myself and getting that next step into uh to varsity early on for sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

100% because I remember you throwing that pitch in any count, any situation. We also, I mean, like you said, we had a great catcher with Sam May, and you would bury that curveball when needed, right? And it's it's like I think it's good that catchers out there listen to this, like help your pitchers out, learn how to block so that they feel comfortable throwing their nasty stuff so they don't have to let up on it, especially if it's their best.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah, I can remember um so we played um we played at Umble High School, and at that time Umble was Umble was pretty they were decent, but they were I mean, obviously they're they they had some guys, but um we had we had a catcher behind the plate, and uh it was it wasn't Sam May at that point, and um, but it was uh it was a smaller target back there. I can remember I was like in the bullpen before that literally I I remember this vividly. I remember throwing it in the bullpen, I was like, nothing is landing. I was like, I can't throw anything. And fortunate to go out and we I think we run rolled it. I I think that there was by the grace of God no hits on the scoreboard by the end of the game. But uh, but but like I I remember in being in the bullpen, I was like, I can't feel anything. So I think about my development, and you think about these younger guys that we're kind of trying to reach, like there's moments as you're preparing for games or opportunities that you look back and you're like, I'm not feeling my best, I don't necessarily have it, and then that switch kind of flips, and you're able to kind of turn it on in a different way, and some things kind of just fall into your plate, um you know, on certain days.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

That kind of leads into like a question I wanted to ask you because throughout my high school career, um, and I guess going into your also some of your your college career when you pitched at La Tech and Hill College, like you were a starter at one point, you were also a closer, and you were also a relief, um, a relief pitcher. What was you know, did you have different mentalities when you were doing that? Did you find one easier or harder than the other, or did you have one preference? Or like kind of what kind of person were you in regards to that? Because you got some guys that are meticulous, buy the book, I have to have my routine. You got some guys that are flamethrowers, they'll just go out there and like I'm just gonna go until my arm falls off. This is what I have. And then you got some guys that are like, you know, they're cold, calculative, like, let me see what I can do in this scenario, you know. Like, what kind of pitcher were you since you had the experience of doing everything?

SPEAKER_02 12:39

I don't necessarily like uh when I was a sophomore, I feel like I almost kind of hit my stride and tried to learn. I love it, Mitch. Casper. I love it. So soft. Like, I don't know if I was like actually a good pitcher in high school. You know, like that's my final statement. Like I was a retrospective things. I was a thrower, man. Like, I was just like, as I look back, of like, you know, I could throw it pretty well, but I did have that curveball. I think that separated me. I think varsity coaches were like, alright, we'll throw him out there. He could see if he, you know, survives. Yeah, and it worked, man. Like, but I wasn't this guy that like had a ton of offers coming out of high school, also. Like, as I look back, like I was definitely my junior, senior year, probably our third, fourth best option. Uh, but I went to JUCO and I remember showing up day one, and at that point in time, I think, and I'm not kidding you, I think I showed up and they rank you. So they they you show up in August, September, you uh what's that? You do the best guy, worst guy thing. Oh yeah, man. And they're like, okay, they're like all the way to the guys that we gave somewhat money to in junior college, or like what's money in junior college? Yeah, you're like, you've got two legs and two arms, like you're gonna pitch 29th out of 30th today. And I remember seeing like the first 10 guys go out there, and I think every single one of them threw like 90. And I remember at that point in time in you know, 2013, that was pretty hard to me. You know, I think that the top end of the guys in high school were still like maybe touching 88, 90, not like the kids nowadays, where you see kids throwing 92, 94, and they can spin it as well. Like these kids were like developing in junior college. So I get to junior college, I'm behind all these guys, and I'm just like, man, I've got to put on weight, I'm 145 pounds, and I've got to develop. So I really kind of to answer your question, JP, like leaned in on like whatever role is necessary, you know. So throughout the fall, like I would throw in the bullpen, and then I started kind of earning some opportunities and started kind of getting some spot starts in the fall. Um, but you roll out freshman year of junior college, and I've moved my way up from 29 to you know a starter.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

How did you overcome how'd you overcome that being like, you know, going from thrower to pitcher? Is it just like, you know, I kind of like aimlessly dialed in, or you know, maybe I stopped trying to be perfect, maybe I pitched a contact, or maybe these guys were just looking at playthroughs?

SPEAKER_02 15:43

All of it, man, that's a good like I feel like that adjustment, you guys know this. You you guys both made that adjustment at the the Division I level as well. I feel like the adjustment from high school to freshman year of college is is drastic in a lot of ways. Like you learn so much about the game, you learn so much about yourself. You're you're trying to develop and understand like you know how your body actually looks compared to other people, you how sophomores versus freshmen look. Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

I can honestly say that when I went when I went to college, everyone, especially the upperclassmen, not only were they more developed, but they were bigger than me. But it was like, yeah, I think they're better than me at this point, but I don't think they're out of reach. Like I think I've trained so I think I trained hard enough that they're not out of reach. They're probably better than me right now, just in sheer of raw talent, raw ability, still experience, obviously, because they're older, but I never felt like it was out of reach. And then I think with everyone being at that base level of like a high school star to some degree, it ra it forced me to kind of just automatically without even thinking, like, I'm at the top of my game. It's already a playoff game, and it's just practice, right? Especially when you don't know anyone. It's like you try to you haven't even met the whole coaching staff yet. 100%, man.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

And I think too, man, it's like the first time in your life where you're not focusing on any other sports, right? You're in a small college town where there's really limited distractions. You're playing baseball, you're on the field five hours a day, six days a week. And so you have nothing to do but develop and but get better, right? And so, like, there's a very limited amount of kids that have a full, like a full grown man body coming out of high school. For the most part, there's late bloomers, right? And so, like, you need to go develop for a couple years. I I mean, Jordan and I, we preach to a lot of kids the importance of junior college. If you're not D1 ready out of high school, go junior college because you'll either become D1 ready or you're gonna quit baseball. It's one or the other.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

That's a good point, man. And I think you learn so much um quickly, right? Like, and uh and and and um to both of y'all's credit, like I think that if you probably view, you know, um view yourselves, like if you if you walked, if you could look back at yourself and say, how would I do things differently? Like, I don't necessarily know if I would do anything differently. I do like to tell kids or tell people like, hey, go and just be like a serious sponge for like three or four months. If you're if you're not already gonna be like a starter at a Division I, you know, University of Texas or Tex AM or whoever it is, like go learn the game of baseball and just be a sponge for like four to five months within your first first year.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

No, I agree because I thought I literally left Kingwood Park High School thinking I couldn't learn anything else more about baseball. Like there's no no one on the coaching staff, none of the players, no one could teach me anything except maybe my private instructor that I go see that was like for the Rockies or whatever, he could teach me something. But like I thought there was everything I needed to know about baseball. It's just like kind of like working on your physical raw talent and polishing that that's gonna get you to the next level, which is half part true on top of that. But like when I got to college, there were things about base running, like you know, you could have if I was just like, you know, if you're fast enough, you're safe. That's kind of how I looked at it in high school. If you're fast enough, you're safe. There's no skill behind it, there's no timing. Like to me, like one eight had no meaning until I got to college. Then I was like, Oh, that's a true one eight, and then you got pitchers that actually know how to hold you, right? Like setup picks, bul picks, like wheel plays, like intentional stuff to get you out, and then intentional stuff that you can pick up on as a base runner just to learn, and that was just one aspect. There's stuff I learned in our hitting mental approaches, pitchers' mental approaches, which is the same and different at the same time for hitters.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Like, do you guys remember going and like um trying to pick out like an upperclassman? Like, cause both of you guys, like, do you remember kind of going in and being like, Man, like, there's somebody I wanted to be like? Because I can remember going to JUCO and be like, I want to be like that guy.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

I mean, maybe not from my own team, kind of because I kind of viewed them as like incomplete players, like, I want to take your spot, I'm not gonna like model myself after you. Also, different different circumstance for me because there was an opening at center field. It wasn't like we have a guy here, I'm gonna replace him maybe after he graduates or gets drafted. It was like I came in as a freshman knowing I had a chance to play. But if you were gonna say, like, I've seen some people play in college that I was like, yeah, if I would if I could, I'd like to model my game after him.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

And the person that I like to model my game after from a college standpoint was the guy, uh, his name was Sky Bowl. He played UNC. We all saw him play. Dude, we all saw him play. We watched him, brothers. I actually got to play him my freshman year. No kidding. And I caught a ball, I I robbed him of a triple. I don't think it was going over, but I caught a ball off the fence that he hit off of our closer, like who was like our our best closer in history, but he parked it off the wall and I caught it. And then I also saw him beat out a ball to the pitcher. Same thing. Like he was he was he didn't have a great weekend, but he was every bit as impressive as I remember seeing him in high school, which I thought was cool.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Not to like glaze and I remember seeing him at Minimade whenever we were all there.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

College baseball classic, baby.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Yes, and I was like first of all, coolest name ever. And then second of all, like Oozes like swag and aura, and you're like, This kid, like I don't know if he's good or not, but like the name's sick, and like he was a freshman when we saw the fact of the matter was he was a true freshman.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Starting for UNC.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

This guy's gotta be good. You're like, yes, I want to be that guy.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah, dude. And I mean, honestly, I went to a pretty blue-collar program at UTSA. You know, there was like a lot of upperclassmen that were really hard workers. We had a good offensive heavy team, but really didn't have a good pitching staff. We were just a typical mid-major D1, like we had great offense, great hitting, but we couldn't really like we couldn't hold teams to less than five runs, right? So that was like the biggest hurdle. Um, you know, going from JUCO to Louisiana Tech, so you develop in two years at at Hill Hill College, correct? Yeah. Now, how many teams were s were looking at you out of Hill College?

SPEAKER_02 22:46

I mean, how many are it was actually um it was actually a fun process. I think back to my freshman year, had success, started throwing harder. Fall so for for the JUCO series, like the fall is actually like weirdly where you get recruited. It's kind of like high school in a lot of ways. Like you're you're playing games and there's scouts, there's people that are involved. Like, I think scouts are actually more involved in the fall at a JUCO level than they are um you know at a Division I. Maybe I'm wrong. So my freshman year, I have a good year. Um start, do some things, develop, um, you know, pitch my way into probably a number three role there. And then um I start kind of getting some looks. I go to California in between my summer, in in between the summer of my freshman and sophomore year, and during my exit meeting uh at Hill, um I had a great teammate, like fantastic teammate. Nate Harris was his name. He he went off and played Pro Bowl. Nate is somebody I I you know love, and Mitch, you probably know the name at some point as well. But um so Nate was my teammate. We had three guys go from Hill College to Louisiana Tech the year before. And so I didn't know anything about them, but I go off play um come back my sophomore year, and I remember my coach, Chris Ratiki, um rat at as we called him at Hill, he was like, Hey, I want you to be our guy this fall, like I want you to to be our number one and and start, you know, literally that first scrimmage. Like I talked back to being like 29th on the depth chart, like I had somehow worked my way up to being like number one, and at that time I was like 88 to 90, maybe. Um, but I was what's that?

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Still a fastball curveball, or how many pitches are you thinking?

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Fastball curveball change, uh, but really lived and died by like a fastball curveball. Like I was definitely that guy. Um so about a month into the fall, it was probably late September, early October, we go to Dallas Baptist and um you know it's like a round robin tournament, and I get out there and the wind must have been blowing at at my back uh pretty hard. Um because I get on the I get on the mound and I throw 94 and I'm like dude, I know I've like hit 92, but I've not hit 94, and like that's a different level at that time, man. Like these kids are throwing nowadays. But I'm like, man, this thing is juiced, but I'm okay with it. I but like in all honesty, I I throw well. Like I throw like my two innings, and I think I throw like strike out like four or five guys, and it was the best probably I've ever thrown in front of the right people. Um and so I started getting some calls then. Um and at that point in time I started filling out questionnaires and doing things that are revolved, you know, that revolved around the draft, and I was like, dude, this is like not me. Like, I'm not this guy. And but like I, you know, like you two, like me, get you kind of get like this taste of like what could possibly be. And Pro Bowl is always kind of a pipe dream, but um, you know, you you're you know, the I start throwing well into the late fall, and I was getting calls from UTSA, went and saw Mitch on a visit. Um went and went to Texas State. I was kind of mid-major guy, got calls from Texas Tech, got calls from some other schools, but nothing in regards to like an offer at like a large Division I and at that point Nate had committed, my the guy that I was just referencing, Nate had committed to Louisiana Tech. I went on a visit with my entire family. So my folks went, my brother, my sister, like who were in college, and they're like, We're gonna go up to Rustin, Louisiana. Yes. And uh I'm like, okay, what a visit to go on. And we go up there, we go to a football game, um, Jake Wells, who I love, he's at Louisiana Tech now, and Greg Goff um recruit me, uh, Greg McCarty, who went on to ACU. Um, great guy, great man, somebody I could see myself playing for. Uh, go on the visit, my brother's like somebody that I value quite a bit, and he tells me, he's like, hey, he was like, you need to commit here. And I'm like, dude, they are 20 and 27. Like, they're bad, they're not good. And uh, you know, and I'm like, this, I'm like, I don't why would I go out of state when I there's so many options, and JP, I know you know this too. It's like there's so many options in state, like, why would I go out of state? And anyways, long story short, like I end up committing to Louisiana Tech, I would say late fall, um, early spring. Um, and it was in a large part because of Nate. I I had a so much respect for him just as a man and uh a teammate, and like really wanted to go play with him, and then I I really respected the guys that I was around who had gone on to Louisiana Tech before. So I chose Louisiana Tech and never looked back, man.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Brother, that's awesome. That was Wayne Burroughs's second season as the head coach. Man, it was actually Greg Goff.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

So I uh so Greg Goff had been there in 2024 or 14, and then uh in 2015, uh 2015, 20 sorry, 2015 season, Greg Goff was there, and then 2016 I played for Greg, and then Greg moved on after that year to Alabama, uh, and then we brought in Lane Burroughs in 2017.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Okay, so your your sophomore season um at my my senior year. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and honestly, dude, like I have a similar story because whenever we took Phil on his college visit, obviously I was somebody who's who Phil like valued my opinion, right? And I was like, Phil, you need to go to this school, brother. I was like, they've got a great, great, like great morals, great values as a uh as a program. Um I loved what Lane Burroughs was building at that time, and I and I saw it before my eyes. I was like, Louisiana Tech's becoming a baseball school. Big time, yeah. And I was like, here's a place that he's not really gonna, he could be the guy, right? And so I was like, Phil, go to this school, man. Um you're gonna you're gonna be you're gonna be just fine. And sure enough, dude, like you know, both you and him ended up having great careers at Louisiana Tech, man.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

It was uh it's a funny story about Phil. So I was thinking back to how Phil ended up at Louisiana Tech, and I remember your dad calling me, um, Mitch, and and he was just like, hey, you know, we're thinking about coming up to Rustin, like, should we type of thing? And I was like, Man, I said, It's four and a half hours away from Kingwood. It's uh a small college town where you can kind of nestle yourself in there and make an impact. You can get a good degree, you can make meet great people. Um, and it's kind of an opportunity to come in and like play day one, you know, for Phil. So my wife actually, JP, I don't know if you know this story, but my wife gave Phil like the like he could he came on campus and Lane calls me up because I was a graduate assistant at that time, and he's like, he's like, hey, he said, Phil's coming up. Can Kendra, who's my wife, can she give Phil the campus tour because she was doing some recruiting stuff for the campus? So literally, my wife. What's that? Are y'all both graduated or is she still going to school there? She at that point in time she was graduated. So we were both graduated, but she was working for the university as a recruiter. And uh she gave uh all of Mitch's family and Phil like a college tour, and I think he ended up committing like a week or two after.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

But did he know at the time that y'all were y'all were dating Kendra? Did he know Kendra was your no? I don't I don't know, Mitch. Well, I think I often have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Like, dude, funny side story, real quick, because on Phil's official visit, my parents just let me and Joe go with him, which was which is right, which was a great idea on their part. Like honestly, because they're like, we want you boys to experience this. That's right. You were deep snapper for the football team. That's right. Burrows is like, we all go into Burroughs' office first thing. And Burroughs is like, man, I'm so happy, all you Metoulia boys are here. He's like, man, we can go up there to watch the Mississippi State game. It's gonna be great. We went to Steele's house first, we played some pool, we went tailgating, we went out to the game, we actually tailgated with Kendra before going into the stadium and her parents. That was it, yeah. We watched you try to run downfield and try to target the biggest human being on Mississippi State's team. And you got pummeled, brother. And I was like, yes, yes. And I just I saw you get up talking trash to the dude who just just depicted you.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Definitely talk trash. That's staple. Dude, I loved it. Dude, that is hilarious, towards that guy plays for the Tennessee Titans, too. Jonathan Simmons, or um I'm I'm blanking on his name, but I remember he was he looked 6'4, 260. Like he blocked two punts, he scored two defensive touchdowns, actually, in that game. So it was like okay, this guy's trash.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Dude, the game was like it was like 70 to 3. And there was a there was a play that made ESPN not top 10, which was like I forgot what happened, brother, but it was like a 75-yard reverse touchdown. I don't know what happened, dude.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

But it was third and 94.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Third and 94.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Yeah, there you go. Third and 94.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

So I was gonna say it was like a butt fumble and third and 94 butt fumble. Like it was weird, dude.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

I forgot about that, man. What a great what I'm glad he committed still.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

He did. He did. Like, I don't care how good the football program is, man. He's like, I'm here to play baseball, and that's what you guys provided for him, man. And dude, pull it up.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

He had a great career.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Great career, five-year career, got got his MBA, can't complain. Met his wife. Met his wife there. I think everybody met their wife at La Tag, dude, or just one of those schools. You marry up.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

It's like the standard, man. Which Cam did.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Cam definitely coverage.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

No, like very much so. My yeah. Yeah. My wife's family. Go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

We all saw the pictures.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

We know you did.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

That's exactly right. Well, hey, what? Cam was ugly. Yeah. It is ugly. I didn't know how ugly Cam was until he got a wife.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Until he got a wife. I still wake up eight years later, wondering the same thing. And Mitch stood by my side, and he probably wanted the same thing. He was like, I was like, this is awesome.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

What does she think? You gotta marry smarter and hotter. That's the rule of a man. And you capitalized on that, brother.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

And had a great career, man. Like, I for all that for all the young people listening, like, go to Louisiana Tech, you can marry up, have a great career, and uh, and have a great college experience.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Brother, that's my a that's my athletic director out there. Well, hey, dude, so you played in a one regional, right? Or was it two?

SPEAKER_02 35:06

We did. We played in one regional. Um, so uh our first year there, we we flipped the the script. Like it was a great ball club. Man, we we we early in the year, like it was kind of the same story, man. Like I came in, didn't necessarily I wasn't a starter. There were some older older guys that were really good, still great ball players. Um, yeah, we had Phil Deal, who ended up playing in the bigs, pitching the bigs. Yeah. I was in his his wedding. Phil's a a good buddy of mine. We had some other arms, man, that like day one, I was like, dude, I'm not gonna start. Like, I've got to earn my stripes. And um, and so we go into the spring, and I I started midweek and um earned my way to the weekend, started on Saturdays, had a had some good starts, spots, you know, spot starts, and then earned my way into to to start on Saturdays conference wise. Um later in the year kind of spun out, didn't have a like a great end of the year slash like conference tournament, end up getting to a conference or getting to a conference championship, or I'm sorry, ended up going to a regional. We went to Mississippi State, had a um had a chance to uh we played uh Mississippi State, Cal State Florentin, and SEMO. And um we come out game one in typical kind of West Coast small ball faction, you know, um uh scenario, Cal State Foreton like um pitches their way into a win against us and goes one and oh. Um they beat us one-o, actually, as well. And then we play SEMO, we beat the brakes off of them, and then um Greg Goff, who was a coach at the time, you know, calls me and he's like, Hey, you're gonna pitch against 410 again. So ended up pitching against 410. And then uh we won that one and and played in a uh a game against Mississippi State. But what an unbelievable experience, man. I know Jordan, you've been able to play in a couple of regionals like postseason baseball and college baseball and college baseball. There's there's nothing like it, man.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

There's nothing like it. Honestly, I felt like I remember waking up when we were traveling, and I was like, I'm not awake enough because it still feels like a dream. Yeah, for sure. Everything's flying by so fast going through a regional, and I was like, I was like, I felt like I needed to be taking pictures on my phone the whole time because I was like, I was like, odds are we're not making it again. Like, yes, we're not like we we it already felt like an act of God, like we were already there, right? Um South Carolina? Yeah, we went to South Carolina, so like I played USC. We go there our first night. Like, I I had a terrible feeling. Like, I mean, I woke up, like we were their stadium was awesome, the facilities were unreal, and like I woke up and I slept on my neck wrong, and I couldn't like turn my neck. So I'm taking BP, like facing the dugout, like using like peripheral vision. And like my like motto in high like ever since I was in high school is to at least try and hit one ball out in BP and box at f at South Carolina. If you just if it just touches the atmosphere, it's gone. And like I couldn't make good contact because I couldn't move my neck. So like I'm just everything is short, so I had a terrible BP session. You know, I'm having the trainer work on my neck 24-7. Dude, we end up I end up playing decent. I think I go like two for four. We end up beating South Carolina. I remember watching that, man. It was awesome, dude. I was turning on. We had a Go Roadie chant and like a stadium full of South Carolina fans that are just hammered. And like they were I mean, I give it I played at a lot of SCC schools, uh played against a lot of them, and I gotta say, like, I was kind of unimpressed with all the trash talking of the South Carolina fans. Like, they were loud, they were it was like obnoxious, they were just like drunk ragers, like shouting in shit. Like AM's smart about it, they're witty. Yeah, I'll give it to them.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Louisiana, Mississippi might be the best.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Those two states are really like every every but every stadium has their own, like, you know, thing about it. Like Arkansas has a lot of humor with theirs. They try to like embarrass you or whatever, like which I think is hilarious. But like, I mean South Carolina, they were just calling us, they were just mother Fing us, hard R's, like F-words, like everything, everything in the book. Nothing to do with baseball. It was just baseball. You're like, come on. It was it was first inning. Like, we hadn't even gotten started. It was just straight from the raptors, because SEC you can drink. And most mid-majors, and I think it's like it's by conference, but like most mid-majors you're not allowed to drink at like at a game. Maybe a basketball game, but not like not like at an open baseball field. So like that was that was a cool experience. And then beating them, and then you know, seeing going to play Duke and uh UNC Wilmington, and that was it's like you said, it's like the greatest experience ever. Um, but kind of what I want to ask you, Cam, is now that you well, two two questions. One, how would you compare the hitting hitters that you faced at Hill College compared to the hitters that you faced, you know, in um at uh La Tech? And then that'll lead to my next question.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Yeah, good question. Um I actually think that um that the JUCO hitters swing carefree. That it's not necessarily their approach. Like I I feel like I feel like junior college hitters are definitely trying to put their own stats together rather than like the division one level is definitely all about like let's try and win. You know what I mean? Like it is it and so like in some ways as a pitcher, like you see your stats in JUCO, and you so you see some of these guys, and you're like, Man, their stats are inflated. I think that hitters are better because they're just out there trying to, you know, uh there's not necessarily a strategic approach. Yeah, man. Like, um, whereas like you've got at the division one level, you've got a true approach, you've got a scouting report, you've got guys that have uh potentially watched film. You know, at a at a mid-major level, yeah, we watch film, but I wouldn't say it was like it is today. It's like kind of teamwork, you kind of put it as. For sure, man. For sure. Yeah. Um, but the division one level, like I thought they were one through nine, probably better, if that makes sense. Like, I feel like Juco, you had four or five donkeys that like could really hit the baseball man. So we gave up. Uh I'll tell a quick story. So in JUCO, um I've given up some home runs. Everybody has. Um I haven't seen any of them. I'll so my senior year, so anyways, my uh I was actually not on the mound for this, but I I will put it next to anybody's longest home run they've ever seen story, and I will fight him tooth and nail. Like, I have seen the furthest ball hit ever. So we had a guy, and I'm not kidding you, is it Isaiah Rojas, and I love the guy. Um, he would even come on here and tell this story. So there's a guy named Chris Giddens who played at Grayson um college. Grayson and whatever, find me. They used they their bats were rolled and they were all on steroids. And I'm not necessarily scared of the case.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

I heard that's like that's like a common theme with Grayson Junior College. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Yeah. I have look, they were great, but they were incredible hitters. So Chris Giddens, I think he played triple A with the Yankees. He gets up there, and we play um at a small ballpark already at Hill College. He gets a 3-0 pitch from Isaiah Rojas, and we were both sophomores. I think that I I think he gave up a home run that went 600 feet. I'm not, dude. You can call any of our close cut call Kyle Losen. Call Kyle call Isaiah. Oh, dude. This ball and the wind was blowing out anyways. This ball went 600 feet. Um we had this old like our duck, like our clubhouse was in left center field. And you know, when you're in JUCO, like you have to go get the baseball. Correct. So you give up, you give up the home run, like you come back to the dugout. You're probably the guy who has to go walk and get it. Like, I think Isaiah was gone for like 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

He had to go get his own home run that he gave up. That's awesome. That's so dear.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

He comes back. And we're losing like 15 to like 12, because junior college, they don't care. Like the runs are a premium. And he comes back and he was like, fellas, that was the farthest ball I've ever seen. It hit ever.

SPEAKER_05 44:24

Did he tell you where he found it?

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Oh, he found it. It was like on a softball field that was like at like maybe a hundred yards behind. Dude, it was the furthest ball I've ever seen. It was literally. Straight left you.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

You should have taken one of those tape measures you measure from like home to first place and just dragged it out to see how far.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

If you asked all 60 people who were at that ball game, 60. And that's being generous. Yeah. They would all agree with that story. Oh my gosh. So that's my difference between JUCO and in Division I.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Alright. Well, my follow-up, my follow-up question would be uh, you know, being that you had to pitch and kind of earn your stripes at both Hill College and La Tech, did you feel like any different when you went from you know high school to hill versus you know going from hill to La Tech? Like, was your back against the wall, or were you just like, hey, I just gotta dial in again and let it take over? Like what happened with you there?

SPEAKER_02 45:28

That's a good question. Man, I feel like I had to grow up quickly. Going back to what we talked about about going to to uh you know play division one or even just going to college as a whole, man, like you've just got this growth phase where you just gotta grow up quick. But if you play division one or you play division three, you can step onto a quarter field. And um as an 18-year-old versus 22-year-old, you gotta jump in and and and develop quickly. So I feel like me personally, JP, like I was 150 pounds walking onto campus, and I realized I needed to put weight on, I needed to develop, I needed to um mature, I needed to figure out who are the right people that I need to surround myself with, and I needed to do that quickly, or else man, I was gonna be on the chopping block, right? Like you can you can kind of fall behind quickly or you can dive headfirst, you can get distracted, or you can come in and and be centered and and say, Hey, look, I want to I want to be really great at this. Um, and I I was that guy. Like I came into Hill College um 29th on the depth chart, you know, pitch a day two um out of 30, and said to myself, I've got to put on weight, I've got to throw harder, I've got to develop a third pitch. And um, because I feel like that that curveball was still there, but it needed to kind of pick up some speed.

SPEAKER_04 46:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Did just that. Louisiana Tech, kind of the same story. Still some guys who I I came into Louisiana Tech and there was 27 transfers. We had 27 JUCO transfers. With freshmen on top of that? With freshmen on top of that. Wow. And and and there was like one or two sophomores. And so, like, they it was just like JUCO again. Yeah, right? Like you were just like the best junior college guys, they found them and they said, hey, come on over. And that's how we were you know successful for the two years, but it flipped the program too. Like, Mitch knows this. Like, going to a regional, I think that was the first time that a team had been to a regional in like 40 years there. Like, I mean, it and it was it it crazy it changed the trajectory of that place in a lot of ways for the better. It wasn't because of me, it was because they I like literally I was playing with guys who were unbelievable. Um, and went off and were successful as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Well, it's so cool that you were a part of those teams that set the standard for that organization moving forward, man. Because now it's like they've hosted a regional since you've been there. They've been to multiple regionals, and they've been pretty close at sniffing out a super regional. So, I mean, they're gonna get it in the near future, I have no doubt about that. Um, man, what's the importance of discipline for all those kids who are in high school and college? You know, it's like there's a lot of distractions when you do get to a four-year school, and you and I both have seen some great players not make it further because purely because they've let social life maybe take advantage of their baseball playing careers, or uh maybe they just fell behind in school, so on and so forth. They got addicted to drinking and doing drugs and some no-nos, right? So, you know, walk us through how important is it that you have a purpose, that you have something that you're striving towards when you do go to a four-year school. Because to your point, it's like being a junior college transfer, they expect you to perform right away. And they are going to give you opportunities, and you have to capitalize on those opportunities, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:01

Big time. I think that the there's so many distractions as well. Like if you look at like just the day and age of collegiate baseball, pro ball, whatever it might be, I think that there's a a level of that I didn't necessarily always kind of have to face with social media, with lifestyle, you know. But I think about my own personal trajectory, like Hill College, junior college baseball, like there's a small town, there's not necessarily the same distractions that you face at a you know, Austin at the University of Texas or a TCU in in Fort Worth, right? Um, but I think it's critical for for young players or people that we're kind of speaking to as the next generation coming up, um, as they look at their own development, like, hey, don't forget like what the dream actually was, right? Or is you know, like if you still walk onto campus and you want to be a pro baseball player, like sacrifice the things that it takes to get to that point. I think about the guys that have made it to that level and above. Like, I look at a Trevor Stefan who uh was a teammate of mine at Hill College. Trevor, he didn't drink, he didn't focus on anything except for mm you know baseball, and he came in and he came in at 88 miles per hour and he left at 97. Didn't he go to Arkansas? He's at Arkansas, he was he was an ace at Arkansas and he's been in the played him on Arkansas, he almost threw a no-no against us. Yeah, he's like Trevor, like y'all need to get him on here. He he'd jump on. Uh he's a Houston guy. Magnolia West. Really? So so so you guys remember when Mag West beat us in high school and they dogpiled Coach Stam's final game.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

Wasn't that what a send off. Also, that's when Melissa Ledue had that heart thing, right? Yes, defibrillator.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

Yes, that's exactly right. Okay, yeah. Yes, and he he I I give him so much crap about this still. Um, and I talked to Trevor Still once a month. We we travel all around the country to watch him play. He came to Hill, but but his development was come come to Hill, develop, he got drafted by the Red Sox, turned him down in the 19th, went to uh Arkansas, didn't get distracted there, focused on baseball, and accepted uh you know, I think he was drafted in the second or third round out of Arkansas. Um, but he's the most disciplined person I know. Like, if I think about his habits on a day in, day out, he has a certain uh appetite that he follows. Um, he has a certain certain regimen. His training was always um detailed, um, but it was his own, right? Like he wasn't trying to carve it into somebody else's um or or carve out of somebody else's habits. Like he created his own. And I feel like I tried to do the same, but he was exceptional at that. And what team does he pitch with now? He's been with the Guardians for so he got Rule 5, um, picked up in 21, signed a five-year contract. Um I think he five-year,$10 million or something like that. So he's he's still with the guards. Um, you know, he's made a great career for himself.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Ru Ever now?

SPEAKER_02 52:42

He's a reliever. Yep, yep. He's an eighth inning guy, was was classes set up.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Um dude, I I'm glad you mentioned that, man, because like, you know, we've brought I I've had the privilege of playing with the big leaguer at UTSA, Justin Anderson. We've had him on the show before. Most disciplined guy on the team, easily. And like was chiseled, like was jacked, would like occasionally show up to parties, but was always the first to leave. It would be like 9 p.m. You're like, where's Justin? Oh, he already left. Right, and it's just like he had that discipline, he had that vision of where he was going uh before he even got there. And I think that's something that myself included and other guys they lose sight of when they get to college. You know, you just it turns into a job really quickly, and you have to sacrifice something. You can't just have a great social life and be great at baseball and be great in school. You have to sacrifice one of those things, right? Something's gonna give. You can't be, you can't have the great, the like all three just be couldn't agree on it.

SPEAKER_04 53:44

At the time of the day.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Well, and the talent pool's too great, right? Like maybe guys in the 70s could get away with that because that was back before sports performance was really a thing. So it's like if you're just head and shoulders talented, now the the talent gap is so slim. Big like the margin is so small. So it's like you have to get every advantage you can.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Dude, I couldn't even agree more. Like, I think that as you look at like developing younger players, like there has to be, and I'm I'm gonna sound like all the annoying coaches we've ever had, but like the little things actually do probably separate you, especially from a skill standpoint. Like uh, like I I don't know about us, Mitch, Jordan, y'all were incredible hitters, incredible ball players, but like um it, you know, at some point you had to figure out like what am I really great at? Um and like how do I how do I excel? And then how do I get better at you know smaller things as well?

SPEAKER_03 54:43

Yeah, polishing your weapon, like kind of like big time. Like, like I was like, you know, when I was trying to get recruited, I was like, what are the I need to know three things that I like not even three, but like I was like, what am I better than most people at, at least when it comes to baseball? And I was like, I rarely strike out, which which is which is good. I mean, I was like, I'm super fast, so like if your average play I could probably beat out. That's good. And then like my last thing was like defense. Like, I was like, anything hit in the air, I'm gonna catch it. Like, I'm more confident in that than I am in my own hitting. Like, that's what I like, those three things. Like, it wasn't even power, even though like by the time I was senior, because I was lifting with Mitch all the time, they're like, I was able to achieve power. Like, I was able to get stuff polished, like you know, to all right, let me get my weaknesses so I can be a five tool player. Because like I think when you know, when I played with you guys as a sophomore and you guys were juniors, like like I would say you can't from a point of pitching, like it was like like not too many guys in district could one have command of two pitches, let alone one. Like, you know, it looked like you were probably one of the few people that was like, yeah, I think he looked he actually probably did throw that on purpose inside part of the plate, and then he definitely threw that one on purpose outside, and then he threw that one on the third. Like, he wasn't even trying to throw a strike on that. Like, that was easy to see from the mount, like he what he's doing intentional, but then you get like our relievers that were just like, oh god, I hope I can throw it over the plate so I don't get lost pulled. Right? That was like that's like you know, that like that's that's a difference. But when it comes to like when it came to stuff like that, like I was like, I know I got three tools. Mish can probably help me with my fourth, and then my fifth one, like, you know I have a tool. Yeah. And then like, you know, my fifth one, like, you know, like I'll I'll study from pitchers and learn how to throw harder from the outfield, you know. It was like stuff like that, but yeah, it it kind of it kind of does make sense, though you know where you where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_05 56:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

And in baseball, there's a plus-minus scale, right? So for hitters, it's like you want to be a plus thrower, plus runner, plus power, plus contact, etc. Right? Plus arm strength. With pitching, what is it that guys need to focus on to get recruited at the Division I level? Is it like plus location, plus arm speed, plus off speed? I mean, like what is it?

SPEAKER_02 57:05

I think what's funny nowadays is like it's it's a game of analytics, um, very much uh more than what I remember it being, I guess is the best way I can say. Like, you know, um, which is which is phenomenal, right? Like, I wish we had the same tools and and access to a lot of the you know to what a lot of these guys have from a hitting standpoint, from a track man, from you know, um a spin rate, whatever it might be. I think what ex what what accelerates high school kids into uh you know JUCO or Division One, Division Two, Division Three, I think I think it's still command of one or two pitches. I think it's projectability, which everybody kind of has their own input on um nowadays. I mean I guess you can scout kids and and maybe take a guess at it, but then you know, I think it I think from a pitching standpoint, um what separates a lot of the kids nowadays is um just ease. I would say like you look at a kid and you're like that's a ball player, right? Like uh m maybe I'm off on on some of this too. I went to a high school game on Wednesday. We've been choosing these games. I've been taking my boys to a high school baseball game every Wednesday.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Just to get them out of the house and get them away from mom.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

Give mom a break.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

What's that?

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Give mom a break.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

And I was yeah, she's like, get out of the house. Um but but we sat there and watched as best I could while I was trying to watch my own kids. Um, and I was watching both pitchers, and there was a short, you know, it was a short little lefty that kind of reminded me of a couple kids, but he had like a good little command, and like then there was this really tall, kind of lengthy uh right hander that jogged out there, and I was kind of laughing to myself, and I was like, you know, the right hander throws harder and he's in the zone. Um I was like, but the but the lefty just some reason is actually pitching is pitching. Is like you look at him and you're like, Man, he just like I take the lefty, you know, if he throws 76 to 78, and he's left-handed, you can spot it up every once in a while, and he's got one or two pitches, rather than the tall, lanky right kid, right-handed kid that you're just like he doesn't necessarily know where it's going at at times, but he he's a thrower, man. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's just me.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

No, I mean that kind of reminds me of like Jason Blanchard a little bit, right? Being a left hand, he was a pitcher, he didn't like have like plus plus anything per se, but he could light up the zone. He by the time he was a senior, he was throwing pretty hard.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

So like yeah, my junior year, he was like upper 80s. Upper 80s he played for the Houston Heat, too. Yeah, Houston Heat. He ended up following me to Rhode Island and then he went to Lamar. But I mean, like, I remember when Cox told me he's like Jason Blanche is gonna be our ace. I go, you're a joke. Like I was like, I go, that's crazy. I was like, I mean, when you thought because when you thought about it, uh like at that point, Jason, I don't even think he was like above 20. He was shorter than all of us, you know, and like I've known him, I mean, like, I mean, I've known him for a little bit, but I didn't know him to throw like hard or anything. But mind you, at this time, he's on he's been on JV. I don't know what he's been doing, don't know what he's been working on. And then, you know, this guy ends up going to triple A for the season. No kidding for the Padres. Yeah, he was at triple A. I think he got released, um, and now he's playing in the Mexican league. Mexican big leagues, you want to say he's playing in the Mexican league, and he's doing he's doing really well. I mean, he's like 94. He was sitting like 94. Yeah. Holy smokes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

He's playing for the Chihuahuas something, like some good bars down there.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

You'd be so what is it? Uh what is uh gosh darn Danny Trejo or whatever his name is?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

What's it take to buy a Mexican baseball team? Ten dollars to burrito?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

Dude, that's our guy Blanchard, man. He's down there living it. He's dead, he's done, man. That's it really well.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

It's awesome. And you know what? He was with a great organization, so it's like, who knows? If he balls out in the Mexican League, it's like he can get an opportunity with a small market team. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

For sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

That's how it works. Because when you're when you're in an organization full of like, hey, I'm gonna go after free agents, it's like, well, you gotta get traded, or you gotta get released and picked back up by another organization.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:00

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

That's how it works.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

Yeah. I didn't know that, man. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

Well, man, Cam, so talk us, uh, talk us through about today's day with NIL, right? Do you agree with it? Do you disagree with it specifically with baseball? Do you feel that it's better for the sport? Does it benefit mid-majors more? It's a loaded question here.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:20

And uh so I left college athletics. Um I so I I was uh baseball, then I ended up playing football for a year. Uh I was a long snapper, and then I worked for the college, uh, I worked for the college we went to, Louisiana Tech, and then moved off to Colorado State, worked in the athletic department, NC State, and then obviously decided to leave in end of 2024. Um so a couple of things on on the the state of college athletics from my vantage point as somebody who was a student athlete at the junior college rank and then division one, um, I had a tremendous experience. Like I've I view that I worked really hard for everything that I wanted to accomplish and accomplished so much and left the game and I have no regrets. Like, loved it. I would tell my sons the same thing, like love the game of baseball, love the game of football. Um think that it had an incredible impact into making me the man that I am today. Um I don't feel great about the state of college athletics. Okay. Um here's my vantage point on this. Um, good, bad, or indifferent. If we're developing young people to actually go and get an education, um, and this is for kind of the one percenters, right? Like these is this is for the people who are at the highest of high levels, this is for the top five people on each pro at each program from a baseball, basketball, football, you name it. Like, I I feel like there's a better system that they could be benefiting off of their name, image, and likeness. I am not against name, image, and likeness as a whole. I think the premise of it, I think if you are um, I think if you're actually endorsed by, let's just call it raisin canes, you know, or a donor that is like, hey, I want you to sponsor, I want you to be the face of our business. Right? Like, I think that that is healthy. I think that if you're Johnny Manzel in 2012, you're going to the Heisman, and um, you have not made a dollar off of your your name, but Texas AM has made 50 million, that's corrupt. And Johnny probably should have been endorsed by local folks. I am not for the pay-for-play. I am for supporting people based on their skill set. Um I don't think that it's a healthy system to come in and um and just pay people for, you know, one-year contracts. There's gotta be two-year contracts. At the mid-major, it's it's gonna destroy. It's a Louisiana Tech. I've I'll come on here and say it and wherever. From a football standpoint, it's a feeder school. That's all it is. It's a junior, it's a it's a higher level of junior college. Um if you go there and you're the top ten best players on the football program, you're gonna get recruited by the best schools in the country. If that's the system that we want, like there you go. But uh I don't agree with pay for play. I agree with uh truly endorsing people. From a name, image, and likeness standpoint, not a pay-for-play.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:04

Who do you think in your mind should be setting these standards? Do you think it should be, you know, um, you know, uh the NCAA themselves? Do you think it should be the conferences? Do you think it should be individual schools? Do you think it should also be like the federal government because that's who the NCAA is kicking it to? Like, you guys decide. I don't want to like who do you think should be responsible? Ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

I think that's a fantastic point. I think that ultimately the NCAA let everybody down. I think that they ran away. A hundred percent. Like there everybody should know this. And it's a governed body that obviously Louisiana Tech, NC State, Cairo State, all belongs under, right? So like you can't necessarily like you can't necessarily blame the schools, and you can't necessarily blame the student athletes. Like, I am not blaming the student athletes by no means. No. And let me let me let me say this too. Yeah, exactly, man. Like, pay-for-play has been going on for a lot longer than whatever I've been in college athletics. It's been plenty of under-the-table stuff, yeah. A hundred percent, man. Uh but like I don't love the rat race of it nowadays. Um I think that there should be a governed body above the NCAA. I think that belonging to the NCAA will not be a thing in the next 20 years. I think that at the S I think that the SEC, I think that uh the Big Ten, I think that Notre Dame, I think that independent conferences or affiliates, like will all just come together and say why do we need to be able to do that? Wait, they're getting a cut of what why?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:48

Why are we know like they're gonna do anything for it?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Yeah, and and at some point they're gonna they're gonna get really smart and the and the right people are gonna get in the room and they're gonna say, Okay, there is no such thing as necessarily like these conferences. It's really just like either regionally based or there's a top 50 threshold of schools, and if you can't if you can't compete at that level, um you know, you're you're not in.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:21

You know, like I think like I think if you if you don't whoever whoever ends up making the final decision of how it's gonna be is who's gonna get a piece of the pie. Because whether it's the NCAA saying, fine, we're gonna make the rule, this is what it is, we're gonna fall on our sword. If you don't hate it, screw it. You know, this this will justify us taking X amount of money. So we're evening out the playing field D1 all the way through NAI, right? But then if you get like the government saying, Yeah, like your entity, we're above the NCAA, this is how it is, this is law, the government's gonna take a piece of the pie. There's like they not. And then all that also either A puts the NCAA under the government or the NCAA is it's not needed anymore. You're spot on, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:11

And JP, on top of this, too, and I I won't be super long-winded on this, I promise you, but um, because I'm a talker, obviously. But uh we love it, dude. That uh the world of college athletics is about to get gobbled up by the private equity world. 100% private equity is about to come in, they're about to load every school up with debt, and they're they're gonna say, Okay, you owe us this money back in like five years, and the schools are gonna look at them and say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got that. We can we can pay you back. They're not gonna pay them back. They can't afford to, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

Just look at these boosters in these uh alone. I do. I mean, it's all it's essentially you're paying the same people, right? The people that look for private equity got the degree from the university, they end up being these gigantic big donors that control everything behind the scenes or can potentially control things behind the scenes. You can look at AM as a staple, you can look at LSU Ole Miss, you can look at I mean Lane Kiffin, like what do you think that was? And then you you can and then you can eventually like what do you think the private equity is gonna do when private equity is worth more than the school? You can look off school, yeah. Now you're bigger than the university and you own hundreds of athletes under your for nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

Like it's yeah, it and it's so it's also new that I think they need to also enforce rules like you can't transfer more than twice. Like, yes, can we agree on that? Where it's like you can't transfer four or five times. I do like how it protects players that are in bad situations because you and I both know that it happens, right? Yeah, um, because you when when you and I play, we had to sit out for 365 days if you wanted to transfer. Yes. Um, I do like the fact that you can transfer, but it shouldn't be more than twice. And there needs to be some sort of incentive for you to stay where you can actually build a program and build a culture and build an identity. Because now kids, it's like if they don't start, they're just gonna transfer right away, right? So it teaches them nothing later on in life because most of these guys are not gonna go and play professional sports or have long careers. So, what is it teaching them that like at every point of an obstacle you're able to just run away from it, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:20

Yeah, there's no accountability, which was kind of like to your point, Mitch, which is kind of kind of sad and scary and and interesting at the same time is this viewpoint is somebody goes athletics is looking like the job market. Yeah, that's a good point. Athletics right now is reflecting the job market. Like, yeah, hey, I'm qualified to do this, not getting this, I'm leaving, I'm going to this. If there was a whether it's six months, whether it's a year, but it used to be back in the day, you gave me this opportunity, you give me this scholarship, I'm yours for four years, loyalty, commitment. If I transfer, I get penalized.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

Here's how you do it, brother. I think you just you give all NCAA athletes a full scholarship, okay? And then you give them food allowance, you give them money per diem per month, right? That you get groceries, you get your room and board covered. I think every athlete would be generally happy with that. Yeah. Yeah. I know I was, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:17

Like, I don't know about y'all. Like, I didn't come from much, and I don't necessarily like I don't, you know, like a degree for me was like a big deal. Like, and I think we're devaluing the degree a ton, and like what's scary about that is like the degree still matters quite a bit in the job market. It's literally a diploma, you have to have it to go for it. And then you're like, okay, like, dude, if I'm looking at uh man, this like if I'm looking at as an employer and I see a kid that's transferred, he played ball at Louisiana Tech, he transferred to LSU, okay. He wasn't good at LSU, so he left to go to Louisiana Monroe, and then oh okay, he realized he was pretty good at Louisiana Monroe, so he's gonna go to Louisiana Lafayette. And it's like, dude, what? You were at four schools in four years. Like, at what point do we look at it and say there's absolutely zero loyalty to uh to your to your program or even the people that you're around?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:23

But I mean, like, even if you could look loyalty aside, because when you get to the big leagues, I think loyalty is kind of cut in half. It's half personal, half of it is loyalty. But I think what you can't what I think the issue with sports and I guess the job market too, but like mostly sports, is that when you're looking at these college kids who are viewed as amateur athletes, is that if you have them transferring around, it loses their you have no credibility. Like with those pros, you have you have proof a long line. You have college proof, you have minor league proof, you even have professional proof because they were on a rookie contract for three years, but you have you get to these college people, a freshman, a red shirt, yes, third year and third college, it's his fifth year, and he's been to four colleges. Your credibility is shit. You can just be like, Oh, I just did really good, that's why I wanted to leave. But you know, you call that coach like he's a nutcase, dude. He transfers again. Well, he was doing fine. I had no issues with him, but he fought somebody on the team, so we had to let him go. And like, we didn't want to ruin him. I thought he was a good kid, so I didn't say anything about it. We didn't report him, there was no police report. We just let him transfer at his own. Like, you know, stuff like that happens, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

Put a bonus structure incentive involved. Be like, hey, if you start for this program for two or three years, you're gonna gain it an extra thousand dollars per month, two thousand dollars per month, right? Something like that, where yeah, there's some sort of incentives for them to stay. Yeah, because ultimately, I like I think mid-majors, you're right, they're step they they're turning into a stepping stone school, right? Like, I think Law Tech and UTSA can have great seasons, but then when those players do well, they're just gonna transfer right out.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:00

It's just a revolving door of new guys playing the span of like you know how Rice would go to the World Series for a span of four years because they had they had a whole culture of generation guys that were part of that team that did you won't see that anymore. You'll see like the hottest guys with the best talent at that time come through once a season and then it'll just switch from team to team. I doubt you can get a team to do multiple unless you know they just pay everybody the max. Like LSU can afford to get the 40 top UT, LSU, like you know, and then just pay, and then whoever whoever plays gets paid. Yeah. At that point, you've got to acknowledge them as professional athletes. Yeah, 100%. Because otherwise, like I said, with the credibility, you can't trust an 18-year-old like that. Because if you paid me a million dollars at the age of 18, I'm gonna do what all 18-year-olds do, and that's gonna black off, blow the money, and then when I don't go somewhere else if someone else is gonna pay me. Yeah, but why would I fix my attitude if you just gave me a million for who I am? Right as I am, like it doesn't make sense. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:07

I'll tell you where the state of college athletics is right now. And from my viewpoint, like so I was catching up with a so I was in fundraising at um the rest of these these schools. So I was originally tasked with like raising money for facilities, for you know, capital improvements, for scholarships. It obviously evolved into NIL at some point, and and that's kind of when I I realized that it was probably the end of my road, had an incredible time. Like I would change nothing about my own career path. Loved college athletics, had a great experience, loved NC State. I was catching up with a donor on uh literally Thursday of this past week, and I'm not gonna name names at all, but uh I don't think he'll listen. Hopefully he does for for for all this. But uh so I was catching up with a donor the other day, and um I said, Man, how you been? What's going on? Like, what's going on in your world? And he goes, Man, just trying to work hard so we can pay these kids. And uh I know this school, and I'm not gonna name the institution, and I'm not gonna name the sport. And I rebuttal and I said, Well, it's not working so well. Because I know it's not, right? Like, it goes back to the return. Like, that's what's kind of at the point. Like, he's he's he is donating quite a bit of money to pay for these kids to go to school, and it there's no return, and like the kids don't care, they don't care about his investment, they don't care necessarily, and I'm not saying all kids don't, don't get me wrong. Like, there's definitely a majority of kids at some point, like I would hope to to to support and help at some like level at Louisiana Tech. I love the place, but my my point in saying that is like there's gotta be some sort of structure uh to the support of what we're doing. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:17

JP, you're on uh your mic's off, JP.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:19

Shoot my phone up, but you're good. No, I was like, I was just agreeing. Um, there has to be some sort of structure because I think uh student athletes deserve to get paid. And I think they should get paid. However, I don't think there should be like the wheels can't fall off. Like if a guy who works a nine to five or a regular job has to, you know, go through these up and down trials to get a raise from a majoration, you can't just there has to be rules and structure for an 18-year-old taking a donor's money or a school's money unchecked and then just running off unchecked. That's my thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:53

That's my only thing. There's no structure. There's no structure. That's that's the only that's why I go back to like the NIL part. Like, I like the premise of name, image, and likeness. I don't agree with pay for play and then kids leaving and not developing. Like that that to me is like, dude, it's just a broke, that's a broken system.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:13

The structure doesn't even have to be perfect, there just has to be something. It doesn't it can be worked on, it doesn't have to be perfect. I don't even think it has to be fair because I don't think it needs to be fair. Some athletes do not need to get paid as big as other athletes. Some sports at this time shouldn't be plit paid as much as other sports. You can do the whole title nine thing. That's a that's a discussion that can be worked on, right? But there has to be something we we these athletes should get paid. There has to be some sort of structure, and then you gotta modify it. But for them, like we said earlier, to completely back on and say, I want nothing to do with this because this looks like a headache, and it definitely will be, you know. This looks like a case of lawsuits, and you know, um, what do you call eligibility class action suits, probably should but you have to do it because that's what otherwise I don't understand what the NCAA is there for.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:02

Yeah, a hundred percent man.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:04

I don't know why I we I don't know why we didn't get paid if that was the yeah, the whole point, you know 100%. We all went into that room, we all had to sign the sheet of paper saying the NCAA basically owns us as property and they can make money off our image and likeness, but we can't receive anything because it's illegal. If they can't change it now, there's no point. Like, I don't understand. But there's some structure. We deserve to get paid. You acknowledge that by letting it happen, just put something in place, and then you just do it over time. Like you just it'll nothing's perfect, right? I mean, I agree. It's been like an hour and a half already, and we haven't even talked about the parent side. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

No, no, this is this is parents all of it, right? Because it's like I'm just having fun with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:53

This is like literally.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:54

We're kicking it with the boys, man. We're kicking it with the boys right now. Well, do like espresso martini, so yeah. Let's go get you through it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:02

We were all like two of these ever, and they're the uh what do you say?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:08

We're honored. Official drink of TOP and Espresso Martini.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:12

My wife just made it, she was like, Do you need like uh coffee or anything? I was like, Yeah. But have alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:22

That's a southern charm. She's another male coming at.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

Do you drink? Do you not drink still?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:32

Dude, I every once in a while, like if I go to a ball game, I'll have a margarita. You know, like if I go to an Esther's game, I'm gonna get a I'm gonna get a margarita. Because I'm Ubering, I'm Ubering there. I'm gonna Uber there, get two margaritas, Uber back home.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:44

You are wild. We're so sad.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:48

I'm like a once a quarter guy. I'm like, I'll cut loose like once a quarter. Yeah. You know? Uh well, dude, just to in closing, um cam, just what advice will you give to your younger self knowing what you know now, not only in baseball, but also in life?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:07

Oh man. Um, I guess we're the old guys talking about this now. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:17

I'm like thinking about that. Um look, I think for me personally, I had so much fun along the way. And I think that's truly like as the 31-year-old self, now that I reflect back on like my own journey and experiences, I had so much fun through all of it. There was some really hard times. Um there was some really long days, there was definitely you know peaks and valleys in which like I'd you know didn't want to necessarily go to UCO. Like, I'd I would much rather be starting at the University of Texas or you know, LSU or one of these schools coming out of high school. Doesn't everybody, right? But there's a select few. And guess what? Like at some point in your career, like you can surpass those guys. And you can come in and you know, be an average arm or average bat in high school, but you can come in and and surpass those guys pretty quickly with work ethic, with determination, and and obviously kind of a end goal in mind. Um so I would tell myself, like, enjoy the ride quite a bit. Uh and I think about the two boys that I have now, and I'm I'm so excited for the day that I get to go watch them play baseball, right? And there's gonna be plenty of tournament weekends, there's gonna be plenty of man, it's a hundred degrees in Texas, and I just I don't want to go to Sugarland again uh you know to to watch them play, but but like man, those th I can't wait. Like that is gonna be so much fun for me. I'm excited about being kind of on the other side of it. I think about um, you know, what I'm gonna tell them about my own kind of playing days, and I think you know, I would just share like I had a great ride. I probably went further than what I would have ever expected for myself. And I was able to accomplish and do things and be around people who were just unbelievable humans that are lifelong friends, and I'm like truly grateful for it as well. And it's taken me places, obviously, that I didn't expect.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:48

That's awesome, brother. That's so special. And dude, thank you again so much for being on this podcast, Cam. We're gonna be in touch. We're going to uh post your social. I mean, like, where can we find you on social media, man?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:59

Like, where man, I'm uh I'm one of these old school guys. I've got a Twitter and then I've got I've got a Facebook.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:05

Um you got a burner phone too?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:10

Totally just picked it up from Walmart. Yes, it's a flip phone. I don't have the Instagram. Um I'm not super active on Twitter, but I like to follow people. Um, but follow me, my first and last name, uh, on on Twitter and Facebook as well. But I truly value just you two, and um this has been super fun for me. And obviously, uh I'm a talker, but I'm more so just like I love doing life with you two and JP.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:46

I know we hadn't caught up in a while, man, but it's fantastic to get yeah, it's great to see you too, man. We'll see you, we'll see each other soon though. This summer.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:56

If you need a hand or two moving, brother, we're one phone call away. I I can't wait to see you, man. Like a warm Texas welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:04

Dude, I can't wait. And and Mitch, you know how much you mean to me, man. Obviously, you know, um, we were sad to to miss you at your wedding, but uh like you know, you're somebody that stood next to me on my wedding day. So uh I love you and your your family, and and uh yeah, it's always good to see both of you.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:25

Love you, brother, so much. And tell Kendra we said hello, and we better see her on next time. We'll do. All right, boys. See ya. Have a great night.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:35

Five, four, three, two performance.