Shift Stirrers
Has there been a time in your life when you wanted to make changes? If you're changing something about your vocation and passion we are the podcast to help motivate you. Our focus is on interviewing people who have made life changing transitions
Shift Stirrers
Shift Stirrers - Gray Tham never stay small and back your self
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Grey Tham is a photographer, a storyteller, a champion of women and the owner and principal photographer behind Simply Grey.
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Thank you so much for listening to The Shift Stirrers podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you'll get notified whenever we release new content. We'd love to hear from you—feel free to reach out at theshiftstirrers@gmail.com, or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions.
You can also connect with us on Instagram @shiftstirrers.
If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others discover the show. And if you know someone who would benefit from this episode, please share it with them.
Until next time, keep stirring things up.
Ah just a quick disclaimer - Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of the discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting curious about change.
You can purchase Rosemary's books on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0FS275RHJ
Our other contacts
theshiftstirrers@gmail.com
https://rosemarypattisonart.com/
https://michellebenson.com.au/
https://www.instagram.com/rosemarypattisonart/
https://www.instagram.com/michelle_benson_art/
Gray’s Links
https://www.simplygray.com.au/wise-women-2026
Ashburton Stories: A history of the Melbourne suburb by Sarah Craze
Ashburton is home to tenacious and determined residents, fiercely independent retailers and sports enthusiasts determined to find a drink in a notoriously dry
Thank you so much for listening to The Shift Stirrers podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you'll get notified whenever we release new content. We'd love to hear from you—feel free to reach out at theshiftstirrers@gmail.com, or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions.
You can also connect with us on Instagram @shiftstirrers.
If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others discover the show. And if you know someone who would benefit from this episode, please share it with them.
Until next time, keep stirring things up.
Ah just a quick disclaimer - Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of the discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting curious about change.
You can purchase Rosemary's books on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0FS275RHJ
Our other contacts
theshiftstirrers@gmail.com
Welcome to the Shift Stirrus. Before we dive in, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands where we record. Michelle and Roseme work on the lands of the Bun Morang and Worangeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging. As we talk about transitions and shifts in our own lives, we recognize that First Nations people have been adapting, surviving, and thriving on this continent for over 65,000 years. The world's longest continuing culture. Soffrenting was never ceded, always was, always will be.
SPEAKER_00Ray, how are you stirring the shift? Oh, Rosemary and Michelle. What I'm doing is I'm actually gonna take the advice for myself that I give so many women. And even when I have a little bit of unsureness myself, I'm gonna be bold and I'm gonna be brave. And I'm gonna be actually stepping into something really new soon that scares me. But you know what? I know that's when it's gonna be really good. Oh, I like that.
SPEAKER_01You stir. Am I stirring the shift? Yes, you are. So Rosemary, do you want to know why we stir the shift? I always want to be reminded by you, Michelle, why we stir the shift. Okay, what a sti what a stir shift stirrer is. Have you ever wanted to make a change in your life? If you're thinking about shifting your career to a more artisian lifestyle and following your passions, this show is not about us, it's about the people we interview and their stories, and it's designed to get you curious about what's possible for you. Thank you. I'm Rosemary Patterson. And I'm Michelle Benson. And we're the shifterers. Everyone, today our special guest is Gray. Gray is a photographer, a storyteller, a champion of women, and the owner and principal photographer behind Simply Grey. Welcome, Gray.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much for having me, Michelle and Rosemary.
SPEAKER_01It's such an honour. Well, we think it's an honour too. Rosemary, you fire away with the first question. By the way, everyone, I'm setting my timer on these. So Grey's got about four minutes per question. I'll give the the tingle at uh three minutes.
SPEAKER_02If she finishes early than four minutes, can she stop? She can. Great. Well, you know what, Rosemary, we probably won't have that problem. Love it. What a beauty. The first question is about small town routes to big decisions. So the question is that you grew up in a small town 90 kilometers north of Manhattan. Your family had been there since 1850. Wow, such deep deep roots. Then you studied economics and international politics and ended up in Washington, DC, doing management, consulting, and coding. I think I learnt Fortran when I was at Teachers College in I okay. Talk us through that journey. How does a girl from a small town with deep family roots end up in that world?
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much, Rosemary. Actually, this wasn't part of what I was gonna say, but most Australians don't believe there's a New York outside in New York City. So when I grew up, actually, two kilometers from my house were cow fields. I mean, now they're five-acre house lots, but there used to be cows and everything, and and we still have deer walking up to our house. So it is was quite rural and uh it is possible. But what I wanted to tell you guys is I was the youngest actually of four girls, and this really shaped me a lot. My mom was 44 and my dad was 49. When I was born, my eldest sister was 18. So my parents thought it was like time to live their life. And then I came around as the disruptor, that's what the family calls me, I think. Um and I kind of taught them that life never goes as planned. Um, and as I'm understanding from what our questions were gonna ask, that's okay. So I grew up with a very different set of parents. When my sisters were growing up, my mom was an unhappy stay-at-home mom, and I think I can really say that she pretty much told me that. Um, but when I was born, she was actually starting a new business. So she actually opened her own real estate office in 1972. So literally the year I was born, nothing stopped her. She learned how to ski when she was pregnant with me. Um, and and yeah, she's just that kind of woman. So and that business actually she started, it's still running today. So I guess we have a bit of legacy creating in our family.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I grew up in that back office of her business, and I used to help her vacuum the houses before she opened them for inspection. Um, and that's really what I thought I was gonna do. Like I thought I was gonna follow her footsteps. And my mom was really involved in the community since our family had been there for so long. You know, that we've been in that church forever, so she was really involved in the church. She was the president of the Chamber of Commerce, she ran the gardening club and stayed into her 90s. I mean, she she was really my inspiration. And I'm even named after her, which is kind of funny. They ran out of names, so they named me after my mom. And um, and through her, I never saw age and I never saw limitation. So, but one thing I did always know, which was different than my mom, and maybe she kind of instilled this in me, is I always wanted to move out of that small town. So when I was 18, I um applied to be a rotary exchange student. And I was selected to go to go to Sweden for a year. And the day I left, I was really all nerves. There was a lot of things behind it, but I didn't want to leave home. And I will never forget. I don't know, back then, like your parents could go with you to the gate, and she literally pushed me on that plane. Like my memory is she got her and went like this. You're getting on that plane. And I think I cried. I was 18, I'd probably cried. But I really thought at the time, my parents really wanted to have finally have the house to themselves. Like they've had kids in the house for 36 years. It was time. But you know what? Now looking back, I realized she knew what I needed, and she knew she had to push me to be there. Even though I instigated it, she had to make sure it happened. That year, I think, is a very pivotal year for me because it really opened my out my eyes and my heart. I think really my heart to to the world. And um, like I said, it was just extremely life-changing. That's four minutes, by the way. Oh my goodness, that's four minutes.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. And something I listened to a a bit of Gabor Mate on podcasts, and he says that no child, no child in the family has the same parents. So I'm hearing you celebrating your different parents to the other siblings and how wonderful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was really different. I don't know, Michelle, do I have any time to finish on this one? I think this was my longest one thing. Yeah, we can go a bit longer. Okay. Um when I got to uni, like I like a lot of things can happen, and I'll just skip all that. But I actually didn't quite know what I wanted, and I called my mom, and she says, Well, you're gonna have to work it out yourself. And I was like, Oh my god, I'm gonna have to work it out myself. Like that was really tough love. So I picked economics, international politics with a minor in German, and then business because I'm bad at decisions and I wanted to be well-rounded. I don't know, but I really think I want thought I wanted to work in internationally and everything. So, to be honest, to do that in the US, I had to go to go to grad school. So we had to do a four-year degree plus grad school, and I was done with school. So I kind of did everything that my business friends were doing, and I applied for all the big companies, and that's how I fell into working with Accenture and doing coding. And when I look back, none of this was accidental. So growing up in the small town taught me community. Watching my mother build her business, that really taught me independence. And being pushed onto that plane, that told me courage. It was a lot of courage. And walking into Anderson Consulting, now Accenture and being management consulting, that taught me something else. It taught me a lot of hard work. But it also told me if you back yourself and you do that work, amazing things can unfold. And you know what? I thought it was about building the corp, going up the corporate ladder, but really what it was building in me was a lot of resilience. And that's what served me more in my life than any job title that I could ever have. So I think through all of that, like I just always knew I never wanted to stay small. Like that was always in the back, and that's what always pushes me to do more and more. So I didn't want to can I leave a question to our audience? Yes. Okay. So what would happen if us women trusted more that we didn't need like a map that told us where we're gonna go? Yeah. But they just trusted that if they all they need is that little courage and a bit of boldness to take the next step and everything else will unfold. Beautiful. That's that's cool. That's what your question came brought out of my mind. Right.
SPEAKER_01Excellent.
SPEAKER_02That's excellent. Don't stay small. It's not never stay still small and back yourself. Michelle, that's maybe uh the name of the podcast.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. You might come up with other names. I was like, You brought a lot of ideas. Anyway, I always have a lot of ideas. Oh, yeah, we're gonna talk about meeting my husband. All right, let me see where I can delete some stuff.
SPEAKER_01All right, um, the next question we've got for you is after college, working, you met your husband, you got married. It's a huge decision to come to Australia, which which I believe takes courage. You left everything to come here. How was that?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know what? Crazy enough, I met John after only working with Anderson Consulting for three weeks. And and we were really long distance, and and we finally made a decision that he had to move to the U.S. So when he did move, he actually got transferred to San Francisco, and I was working in Washington, D.C. So if you know US geography, we only saw each other on weekends, right? And then his second job was in Rio de Janeiro. Yeah. So we only saw each other every three weeks. When we finally, I don't know how we finally decided to get married, but we did through all that. And and it was my idea to move to Australia. And I wanted, I think there was two reasons. I wanted to see him more than just weekends or every three weeks, because that was our life in the US at being consultants. Like we just that's how we it was like they always put us in a client site and we never could, it could be in another country. So I and also I really wanted a break. Like, you know, I was I give everything a hundred, a hundred, a thousand percent. And I did that with my consulting, and I didn't I couldn't at the time see how not to live that way. So I just wanted, I was only 29, but I was really tired. So what we decided is we're gonna take four months off and travel. And I think that's what I just saw that I didn't even think of what it meant to leave my family. I was just really excited. So we just we just sold up the house, we packed up everything, and um, we moved here. And when I did move here, I decided really quickly I didn't want to hang out with the other expats because I didn't know how long I was gonna be here, but I knew in my heart that I needed to make it work. And I saw so many expats like not doing that. So I now have a phrase and I had a podcast that was another adventure, and I tell my kids all the time, bloom where you are planted. And I was doing that at the time, and I didn't even understand it. So I didn't pine over what I was missing in the US. I did the best to thrive where I was, and um, I didn't actually go back to work. I spent a lot of time with the retirees. I joined a mother's uh, sorry, not a mother's group, I didn't have kids. I drove a writer's group, I played tennis, I spent a lot of time on the porch with my 80-year-old neighbor just watching the world go by and listening to our crazy stories about her daughter and Nick Cave. And I just found myself surrounded by these amazing women. I guess we could call them wise women, right? And I learned about those years of life and about reinvention, grief, resilience, and just the simple joy of listening to people's stories, I guess. And and I think that's when everything really shifted. And I really thought I loved my corporate career. But what Australia gave me was that space for my creative side, and it really made me, I really felt lighter and I felt more of myself. And and I think that's when I realized it wasn't anymore about the job title, it was more about the impact you can have in life and that connection, which my mom always taught me, but I didn't know looking back and thinking about this. Like that's really what she was all around about, and that's probably why she went into real estate helping people that way. And um, yeah, I just love listening to people's stories, and I'm just really grateful Australia gave me that space to do that because I I don't think I would ever had that. So the next question's been answered, Michelle.
SPEAKER_01I would really like to know what we can answer. I would really like to actually talk a little bit more about the Alamane. Yeah, actually, and I have I go specifically into that. So Because I think that it's a really fascinating story about Australia, about Melbourne. I was looking it up and and yeah, there's I'll have to find the book for you. Yeah, I've oh it did have a name. I can't remember what the name of the book is. The Alamana as they called it. Yeah, yeah. So are you happy to do that, Rosemary? Yeah, yeah.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_01Okay, all right, let's go.
SPEAKER_02Okay, great. So um I love that you suggest to our listeners bloom where you are planted. And that's what you did in the Alamane project. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? And I also want to celebrate your skills in listening. We don't listen these days, but actually what you were doing was listening and hearing stories and learning about people, and that's just such a wonderful skill to have. Tell us a bit more.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you so much, Rosemary. Okay, so during this time when I moved here, and I found I saw an ad. It was probably in, to be honest, it was probably posted up in the library. And it was a woman that was looking for help to write these stories about people that lived in this area called Alamain, which is very close to where I live. And they were basically um people that came back from World War II, returned servicemen, and they didn't have homes. So they bought the government, I guess, the government council, I think that was probably the Australian government, uh, Victorian government, built these commission houses. But they were they were houses, they were family homes for them to go into. And and that's what they and what was happening is at this time, which was around 2002, 2003, those men that were coming back, they were passing. So they didn't want to lose the stories. And I have to tell you, it's so good we did that because most of those houses are gone now, and our big, huge homes are built instead. So I signed up, they gave me three women, I bought a tape recorder and I took my book and I said, Yes. Look, I was 30, I had no kids, and I was really green. Like, I, you know, even at 30, like I didn't know any much about life. Like over a lot of kapppas, I learned that a cuppa is more than a cup of tea. I learned about families that had to live in parks in tents after the war, but to make it home, they put a fence around their tent, you know, so it looked like home. I learned about outside toilets. Like in the US, no one had an outside toilet unless you had like an outhouse. I learned about that. I learned about grit. I learned about what it took to build a community out of nothing, the importance of community. And also, one of the women was like the head of the the like parents' committee of the school. So I really learned a lot about that. Um I don't know, I just learned about raising kids, making the best of what you had. Loss, you know, after that time, at that time, I thought it was just helping with a community project, but it really shaped me. Like it shaped me so much about how my thoughts are, about maybe empathy I have with people, and then what I do. And also, these were just like most of these women were just like they were so like, why do you want to like interview me? So what I realized is everybody has a story to tell, and especially our older generation, and we can learn so much. Like, you know, people, I don't know. I I love going to like retirement villages. I mean, I just love it because I love hearing the stories. So I transcribed all those hours of tapes and I wrote their stories. And I guess 20 years later, I did it again with the 50 and Wiser Club, and I'm still doing it. Like, and I didn't even really think about that. That really probably spurred on what I'm doing now until this morning looking at these questions. So yeah, it's just gosh, I thought it was just something to fill in time, and it just became so much bigger. Yeah, I guess without me knowing it, it's kind of goes into what I do today. It's thank you, Alamer.
SPEAKER_01It's it's a fascinating story, right? I mean, just even like, oh, by the way, I have a lane down uh where I live. I have a lane down the side of my house that was for what they called the night watchman, who was the guy who who took the the cans. So they used to call they used to wear shikata hats. And it was they take the can away from and so there's a little lane down every second house for those for those little yeah. It's just so fascinating.
SPEAKER_00It's so fascinating that the houses built right before the war had like trim and and brick, but the houses after the war, they did we didn't have the money, so they they were just so simple. But they and these poor families actually had to deal with a lot of like rising damp and stuff like that, but they had a house of their own, and then the ones that waited to sell it, wow, they did pretty well because like the property became so great. Yeah, no, it was just really it was a real honor to be part of those people's family stories.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, maybe uh maybe yeah, I can look it up. I it's I think I think it is called the Alaminas. I'm pretty sure it's called the Alaminas. Also looked at the lady's name, so I'll actually put that great yeah, the ladies' name.
SPEAKER_00Maybe I should reach out to her again and let her know, like can I still do this work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. All right. Okay, so next we're gonna look at your transition into your photography. So you you know, you'd given up your career, you started a family, but you wanted something more, which I understand I've been there, so I was the same. And you signed up for the photography course. I I think you said RMIT, am I right? Yep, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Um and how did you go? How did you go from photography and not even knowing what aperture means to actually it becoming your life work? Well, the funny thing having been somebody who's just learning about aperture.
SPEAKER_00Well, the funny thing is with me, there's always a story, and you know what feels like a very long time when you're going through it. I was like, wow, it's such a small blip. But I guess at the time, actually, I was going back and forth a lot to the US because my kids were really little. Um I have three kids now, but at the time I had it like a two and a half and a one-year-old. And I finally made a decision that I'm not gonna do that and I'm gonna go on a trip with my family up in Queensland. And during that trip, I got a call that my mom was dying. So I was on the next flight back. I took my one-year-old because I couldn't leave him behind, and I well, not and I left the other one behind with my husband. And my mother didn't pass, she was 80, but I did spend three months with her there in the States, nursing her back to health. And it was probably during that time, my kids both came, eventually were both with me. And it was during that time that I had I had to get someone to help me because I had to go to rehab. My mom had to learn to walk, talk, everything again.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00And I really had to be her advocate because she was 80. You know, a lot of times people write people off when they're older. So I really had to be your advocate. And it was during that course, and I think because I realized I could juggle the family and still do something else, which I didn't think I could do actually. I had always thought I'd give everything 100% and I can't juggle. So that's when I decided, you know what, I'm gonna go take that course I've been thinking about because every time I took pictures with the of the, I wanted them to be better. I always just want, I'm like, why can't I do it like other people do it? Like, and they were just so they were pretty, they're pretty bad. But I mean they're probably fine, but they weren't just wanted bad. So I came back after and I I did the course. And like you said, a friend of mine recommended that I met during the course, recommended that I started. And in 2009, I put the kids in daycare twice a week, and and I started photographing families because that's what I knew at the time, that's what I felt comfortable with, that's the relationship I understood. And I really the RMIT course was just a starter, like I threw myself into learning and I did workshops, I got mentors, I did classes, I tried a lot of things, I failed at a lot of things. I tried again at a lot of things. I'm always someone that wants to grow, and that hasn't changed, it's still happening. Um, but that's how I really learned about it. And I remember even being on a workshop because I used to shoot an aperture priority that someone said to me, if you're not shooting a manual, you're not a photographer. So I actually set myself, I do a photo a day project every January. And and that January, uh following that, I set myself that I would shoot a manual. And that's actually how I finally learned to shoot a manual is just by every day making mistakes for a month. So yeah. So that's how it happened. And then was there perfect balance between motherhood and ambition? No, no, I still was on my computer while they were home doing things, and it's still a problem. Like ask my kids, it's still a problem. But what that gave me is something I hadn't felt in those few years, and it it gave me that creative oxygen. And it also reminded me that I can pick up and try something new and build something new again. I guess I've been doing it my whole life and didn't I keep forgetting, but I guess it can happen. So did that answer your question?
SPEAKER_01It does, and you're within your time limit. That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_02I told you I'd get better at that. Okay, we're up to the next question. Michelle, you're doing a great job with the timing. Great. Your Alamane project and people's stories and then photography, and then you now are doing the wise women project, which has got a limited life as well. But can you talk us through that project and how you empower women with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so when I look back at um wise women, uh it kind of feels inevitable, but it didn't start that way. So when I was 45, I actually saw someone who was turning 40 wanting to photograph 40 women for her birthday. And that's I thought, oh, and I'm 50, I want a challenge. That's what I'm gonna do. And I really wanted to create a coffee table book sharing wisdom of women like 50 to 100. But when I asked them to share their wisdom, um, they either said something that was really safe or they said, I have nothing to say. And I thought that's not gonna be a very good coffee table book. So everything really shifted when I started to ask them, When you were little, what did you want to be? And tell me how you got there. And it yes, I had to listen for a long time. But that's where their wisdom came. And when they heard that back, they said to me, Wow, did I say that? Or they'd say, Wow, I have something to say. I didn't, I didn't know I really had something to say. I actually have something to say. And that is what really inspired me to continue this work all the way through. Because I really learned everybody has something really important to say. And also the power is, as you ladies know, because you're doing it here with me, is when we stop and pause and reflect. We spend so much time worrying where we're gonna go in the future, and that causes such anxiety. If we just stopped and reflect on all the amazing things we've done, even though we don't think so, but when we really reflect, we have done quite amazing things, not necessarily places we've been, but the things we've been through and those seasons and what shaped us, like that's really where the power has to go. So I think I just want to explain a little bit of when I photograph people, I think this might help explain to other people like how do you how do women see their strength? Like, because I talk a lot, I want to show you what other people see in you because you can't see it in yourself. And and that's so important, not only in their story, but in and um, but I want to I kind of have an analogy that I think explains this. So when I photograph families and not so much anymore, but especially when I used to, everything would go pear-shaped, like it always does. Like you can't tell kids to sit still, they won't. So I always want the parents just smile. Please just smile, even when you're about to strangle them, just keep smiling. Because what will happen is the kids will sh do something amazing and show you such tenderness. You'll see it, but you'll forget it because all you're worried about is the naughty things they're doing. And oh my god, this is so embarrassing because there's other people watching us, you know, and that's all. So so many times when I go through the image reveal with the parents, they're like, Were we in the same place? I said, Yeah, we were. But what I did was I captured the good moments. So you can remember them later when you're about to strangle the kids, because they do happen, but so often we don't remember them and we're so fixated on those other things. So I think thinking back, that's what I do with women too, because I like to show them what I see. And when I photograph them, I do see their strength, I see their courage, because it takes courage to show up to the studio, and I see the wisdom that they rarely acknowledge because I don't take time to look at it. And when I want to have them, like my family's, had those portraits. I want them to have these portraits, and that's why with wise women, I print them at least one image. I print them all their images, but I make one, a magazine style, and they're in the magazine. Because I want them to, when they self-doubt themselves, because we do it all the time. I mean, I do it, I want them to see that portrait, see their story. Actually, that's why probably that's so important to me. The stories, because I want them to remember that they really are a brave woman and say, wow, that's me. Like that's I think that's really kind of sums up why I do what I do.
SPEAKER_02And can I just celebrate that there's so many skills I can't pick them all out, but the skill set of not being happy with a safe answer, and then the skill set of asking the right question is just wonderful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think Well, we would have had a book with about 50 women saying the same thing.
SPEAKER_02But I think you should write a book about yourself.
SPEAKER_01No, Rosemary as an author has a right to say that. So Oh, you do? Okay, well, I looked at you online and uh the reason I actually said, Yeah, I'd like to do this when I saw your ad was because I was looking for a photographer, but I wanted a photographer who had values that I actually believed in as well, not just someone who was gonna take my photo. And the session I had I found I not only felt truly beautiful, but I felt valued. And I think that a lot of women in their later life go through an invisibility phase where they feel like they're invisible. I mean, when I've when I felt invisible, I went and got my hair dyed blue. So all the tips at the end were blue. And I and that helped me get through that. I'm now back to my normal, my normal, but yay. And I I think that you know, how do you I you know, what have the women that you've photographed taught you about them and and about stories? Because you've heard stories of women all your life. So what what have what have they taught you?
SPEAKER_00What have they taught me? Oh, that wasn't my question that I answered. I must not read your question. But that's okay. You just took my question.
SPEAKER_01Oh, is that the next one? Oh, hang on. Well, then what was this? Don't worry about it. Between the moment when someone walks in and the moment they see themselves differently. So sorry, Rosemary apology. I will leave that bit in because I like it.
SPEAKER_00No, I like that. No, that's okay. I think that's how these things work. Look, for me, I'll just I'll kind of say quickly, space is really important. Like where you come in. And that's why when I stopped being on location studio photographer, I've had a studio at home and it was a very safe space, but as my kids grew, it wasn't the right space. So I actually had my own studio. And then I had to move studios recently, and I will be again, but anyway, but on that hunt for a new studio, like I'd go to places and people like, and I just this a woman would not feel safe here. Like it like I just had to have a place they'd feel safe, and so that's really important. And I think I think what I've learned that before the camera comes out, um, I think it starts way before that, like before you even step in the studio. And I think you made me realize actually, Michelle, I guess it really starts with me understanding who you are. Because if your photographer doesn't understand who you are, how can they really capture you? So that's what's great about wise women. Like they're not surface level questions, like they're really, they're real questions I ask, and I and I really get to understand what makes you tick and and what you've been through. So on the practical side, the coffee really helps make you feel comfortable, I think. And also the hair and makeup. And and then it's not about hair and makeup, it's not about the latest do. It's just about getting you to relax. And and that's why I pick the makeup artists I do and giving you that pause before you step in with me. And and I guess when I'm photographing you, I'm really curious. So I just ask lots of questions and we talk and we become friends. And we do. That's what Michelle. Michelle and I said we're gonna we're gonna hang out, and I do, and I feel that way with so many of the people I photograph because like I like you. Like, I really like you. And there is an application process for wise women, so I suppose I this I can say if I don't like someone that I don't have to photograph them. But I really am generously curious and love people's, and I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so I know I think you've know that you're in good hands with me. That I'm not gonna just be like, this will be good enough. Because yeah, sometimes like it's probably annoying because I go over and over again. I think I think there's also just there's something during that shoot, like where your shoulders kind of drop and your smile becomes kind of real and you forget there's a camera, and that is to me, is when I can truly um uh have you be seen and everything. Yeah, I think I I'll just I'll I'll finish this with a little story too, because I think it kind of shares like the words. We say a lot of words, but what does it mean? But I I'm actually photographing someone this week, and she's had a lot of branding shots done, and she's coming for wise women, and and I don't know if she knows why. I do think she knows why, but she wants to be seen and she she just wants something a little bit different. But she asked me to look at her images that she's already had in her catalog and what she's missing. And look, the images were great, like they were really great. They showed what she does, they showed they're beautiful. Like there was nothing wrong with them. Like the photographer did a fabulous job. But after I wrote her story, I realized that it was something was really missing. They don't really show her depth and her evolution and her why. I feel that responsibility. I feel that deep responsibility, not just photographing someone's title, not just their role, but who is underneath it. So, yeah, so I hope that when she comes in, I can do that for her. And when she says that version, like that will really shift for her too. And she'll stand a little bit taller. This woman already stands tall, so uh, but maybe even in a little bit of a different way. And yeah, that's what really matters. So I guess I set high expectations. But um, we seem to get there somehow in the end. But yeah, great story.
SPEAKER_01Can I just say something when Grey photographed me? Beforehand, when I was getting my makeup done, she asked me how I met my husband, and I went through my story, and I said about the first time I kissed Mark. And um, halfway through we're taking the shoot, and Gray goes, smile like it's the first time you've been kissed by your husband. And I think I just beat. And it was just it was just so lovely because I think that it was things like that, and you laughing too that helped me relax even more. I mean, I was looking forward to the session. I was very what I call nerve-sighted, but it was it's an experience I've dragged myself into because I knew I had to do it, but I actually loved it.
SPEAKER_00I'm so happy, and I tell you, I think I told you no one ever comes in like really like I am not nervous. I I don't think I'm yet to have someone come in like that. And if they do, I'm a bit nervous myself, then I'm really nervous. So um, yeah, no, that's that's good. Because you know what? You guys are nervous before a shoot starts. I'm actually nervous too because I I put that expectation on myself. So I actually have to let that go and just know that if we both do our jobs, it will come naturally.
SPEAKER_02Okay, Nark. Great. So um what a wonderful thing. You're a small business and you also mentor the Go Girls Foundation. Such a great contribution, and we want to hear more about that. What drew you to that work and how does mentoring women in such vulnerable situations connect to or inform the work you do, photographing women in transition?
SPEAKER_00I think that well, the Go Girls Foundation they kind of fell into my lap a little bit, and I fell into their lap, which because we we have a very good relationship and it we work really well together. And when I was doing the 15 Wiser book, I really wanted to do the I have a charity aspect. And at that time it was COVID, and a girlfriend of mine said, Um I'm selling some tote bags for a charity that sports women at risk. And you know, as we do, we support our girlfriends, so they ask us. I said, Okay. And when I got that tote bag, when it was delivered, I opened it up and there was a photo of a woman that they had helped and her story. And so at that point, I was actually developing how I was gonna do the 50 and wiser. I really believe in fate. And I'm like, and I want a charity, and here's a charity that just sent me a photo of a woman with her story. So um I said to my friend, I said, Can you please put me in contact with the CEO of the I would really like to um raise money for them? And she goes, Oh, they're very busy people, correct? Anyway, I caught up with them and they really loved what I was doing, and I really, I really loved them. And what happened was we ended up raising$20,000 for them through that coffee table book. And I think because I was doing it for them, it it really inspired me to keep going. And when I ever had to call someone and ask them something, or do you want to be part of this? And you kind of feel like, oh, I don't feel like that. I I felt I'm doing it for the Go Girls, so I can do it. Yeah, and it was really amazing. And I photographed a lot of them and I got really involved, and they also had me do a lot of like photographing events for them. So I got to meet a lot of the women that they helped, and I would go to their they have these graduations, the women that they support, and I'd be in tears. And I just anyway, so eventually I also became a mentor for them. Yeah, and that was really lovely, and now they're actually a part of the wise women project this time is going towards their charity also to support women. So um, yeah, it's just been really amazing. And this is the thing in our Wise Women launch that Michelle went just a couple weeks ago. Michelle and Michelle, there's two a lot of Michelle's that run the Go Girls, they were there also. And they came to support me, actually, which was amazing. And I wanted to announce them and also thank them, and because they've been such a big part of my journey and they've been so supportive of me. And and and I just want to announce them, and I and that they said to me, great, and I asked them a question. I said, you know, one thing, we really need more mentors. And I said, All right, I'll ask. And so during made it up, I um because it's really women at risk, and there's a huge stat that how many women are actually killed by their past partners, their current partners. It you and I don't want to say the stat because I'll get it wrong right now, but it is mind-boggling. So the work that they do to support and empower women so they're they can get out of those kind of situations, and they also support women that might be lost or are socially isolated because maybe they came from another country and or they're just socially isolated because they're out in the country, or we can be socially isolated actually among millions of people. So they help a lot of women. And and I just asked though, I said, if anybody here thinks they can be a mentor or might want to know more about the Go Girls. And Michelle told me that she had like seven women, and we had 33 women, so seven women out of the 33 went up to her and said, I want to know more.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00And I thought that is the power of connection, bringing women together. And I guess it's kind of the power of what I do too, because like I just and I said to the women, talk to someone you never talk to because magic can happen. And I truly believe that. But they're pretty amazing. Go check them out if you want to check out the work they do. I've said I'll be a mentor. Um, I've got to fill in my form. I haven't filled in my form yet. And you know, and through that you'll meet the other mentors who are amazing women. And um, and what I really love is they're a small organization doing big things, so you're not gonna be caught up in the red tape. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you. Rosemie, you look like you wanted to say something there. Uh no, I just said awesome, my favourite word. So this is 2026, is the last year that you're actually going to be photographing wise women, and you're actually calling for 40 women. I don't know how far you've got in your count so far. You know, what does this ending mean to you and what are you hoping to capture in this final cohort?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there is well, I think you also was wondering what kind of why. There's a few reasons why this is my last, and it's really bittersweet for me because I just really love this work. But I'm not leaving this work. So, um, but after doing this for four, like four iterations, I kind of feel it's time, and I have another project in my parking lot of ideas. And I know myself well enough to know that if I don't explore it, it will nag me for a long time. And I I just can't afford that mentally. So I gotta kind of do it. And also, there's some family ventures on the horizon, potentially. And I'm slowly learning and even more learning through answering your questions and reflecting that even though the unknown can trigger a bit of anxiety in me, because I like to plan, it can also bring out extraordinary experiences in life. So um, yeah, every time I step into that uncertainty, something meaningful really happens. So I'm just gonna step into that. But we have to, because of all that, that's a lot, we have to end the chapter in June. And we are looking for 40 women. I think I need like 26 more. Yay! And I'm closing application because I have to do it by June, I'm closing applications by the end of March. And yeah, because it takes time to photograph and every and I'll tell you at the end, there'll be heaps that come in. And it's unfortunate. Sophie, um, we're only doing 40 because that's all we will have availability to be able to photograph and get in the magazine. Now, this final group, they feel really important to me. But what I really want is I want women to come to this project. Like I'm not looking for a type of woman. I never am because I guess I really am feel I really believe in what comes, comes for a reason. So I want women to come if they feel that need to have this pause. Women probably that have been holding a lot together, juggling a lot, women who don't think they have anything special to share, or women even that feel that they have something they want to share, that they finally want a platform to be able to share it. You know, we give so much to our family, our work, our communities. Like, I really want women to give back something for themselves. So, and if they don't like doing that, because we all have a hard time doing that, like, don't we? Like, so like I did something for the Go Girls, right? I say to the women that want to be part of it, you will be doing something for the Go Girls because part of your contribution will go towards them. But also you're doing things for other women because you're sharing by sharing your story, you're sharing with them that they're not alone and what is possible. So you're not just doing it for yourself, but you'll have an amazing experience for yourself. So, yeah, I just want to end this chapter with 40 remarkable women who may not know that they're remarkable yet, share their stories, even if they think it's ordinary, because I like I told you guys, ordinary lives really have extraordinary wisdom. And and they're not told enough, you know? So I don't I always say, you know, people like, oh, I have this famous friend. I I don't need famous friends. I just I want I want to hear the real like the not that their stories aren't real. And I'll listen, if there's a famous person who wants me to photograph, I'm right there for it. I think I'd I'd always really love to photograph like Michelle Obama or something like that. So um I'd do that, I'd be really nervous, but I'd do it. I'll put it out there. You'll see what happens. Yeah, and I I think the other thing is the end of this project, I hope ends in a beautiful celebration where everybody can meet each other and a little bit of magic can happen. That's what I'm really hoping for.
SPEAKER_01It's gonna say what you need to think for your next thing is a metaphor mother's foot on your backside kicking you through the door.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's really what I need, isn't it? I think you're right. Great.
SPEAKER_02Well, I do wear her necklace, so maybe that's kind of wow what that is. And we will talk about how to get in contact with you, but just for that one, how would people contact you?
SPEAKER_00Oh, so we actually maybe you could put on your um on the link. We have a page that talks all about the project. And there's actually so it tells you everything you want to know, and then you can always reach out to me if there's more questions, but there's actually an application form on that. So that application, and it's quite simple, it just kind of tells you what asks you what spoke to you about it, confirms that you're over 40. And um, yeah, so and you understand that the project it is a paid for project. And I like I said, part of that will go back to the Go Girls. And it goes, I have an amazing group of women that work with me and that I support. So it goes to paying them too. And me a little bit for doing what I do. But yeah, that's how you get a hold of me. And it, but if I always say to women, if there's any questions, just ask. And by applying for the project doesn't um mean that you're like it doesn't mean that you have to do it. It just means that I understand and I can call you and we can talk more about it. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_02Well, we're on to our last question before the legacy one. Are you right to go on with the one about STEM? Yes, I think I am. A hundred women in STEM. And you are a STEM person yourself coming from being a coda and being in business. Could you talk us through this project that's new to you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, actually, it's not really new, um, but I've been talking about it more. So I want to photograph 100 women in STEM. And for those that don't know, it's science, technology, engineering, math, and medicine. I might have got the two M's backwards. Um, and it's been sitting in my notebook for since um 2021. So um, yeah, it's it's quietly been worked for five years.
SPEAKER_02Over time, I started to notice um sometimes you need something in your brain for a couple of years, don't you? So it's been in your notebook, it's been a project you've been thinking about.
SPEAKER_00Okay. It really has been something, Rosemary, that I've been thinking about for a long time. Because I actually photograph a lot of women who are medicine. And what I realize is I'm really inspired by them. Not only those women, but women, I photograph a lot of women that are in male-dominated fields. And I think what stuck with me is not necessarily just they're in like quite smart women, but their passion and their commitment to what they do. Because you have to be passionate, passionate and commitment, committed to do those fields. So it really got me thinking about that. And I also often found that these women didn't want to just see themselves as capable, but they really wanted to see themselves as women, whatever they define that as in their space. So I just really got me thinking. And then over the last eight months, I can't tell you how many people, women in STEM, have just been coming my way. And I really need to start my list because I'll definitely forget. So I don't know. And I've learned I gotta start, I gotta pay attention. Like I really have to pay attention. And I think right now is the time. So, and like you said, Rosemary, I was a woman in STEM, but I I never realized it until about three weeks ago. Maybe, Michelle, something you said, I'm like, oh my God, you're right. Like, I was so, but you know what? This is something actually also that I'm quite passionate about, is that in high school I nearly failed maths. And if it wasn't for a tutor that really believed in me and who took the time to sit with me and help me, I probably would have given up. And and I'm learning recently that there's this crazy statistics. And I, again, I don't know the statistics off my hand, but there's so many girls that quit math in high school. And it's not because they're not capable, it's actually because they don't believe they're capable. And it and a girlfriend just told me about her daughter doing that, and I it just made me really angry, actually. And I realized, look, and I have a daughter that's actually, and she's quite a smart girl, decides that she wants to go into arts, into a creative field. So I really am supportive of whatever a girl wants to do. But if it's because they don't think they're capable at something, there's something really wrong. And especially if they're at like an all-girls school, like there's something really wrong. Like, why are we doing that? Like, and I just feel so fortunate that I had actually a male chemistry teacher who actually sat down and and and showed me that I was capable. So I really feel this STEM project is it's bigger than just a portrait project. And I don't know what it is yet, but I just really feel that it's gonna mean more to me and more to others than just a portrait project. And and I really want to photograph the full spectrum of women in STEM. I want to start from our dreamers. So these girls that might be giving up but are dreaming they want to do something. I want to photograph the women that are in the thick of it. And then I want to photograph, I wanna find like our legacy, like our pioneers, sorry, our pioneers. And I want to, what was it like for you? Like, we think it's tough now, but what was it like for you? Like my sister was a civil engineer, and in the 70s, because remember, they're so much older than me, she was one of the first civil engineers. Like, she was. Only woman on a job site, let alone in university. So I want to know how that. So I kind of I really envision, I don't know it's gonna be a book yet, it's gonna be an exhibit. I don't know yet. I envision those. So if it's exhibit, people coming in and just being totally inspired by these women. Not just other women, but our kids and men, like men, like learning, like and knowing, and I don't know what the story is. I think part of this question was, what what story do you want to tell? I don't know yet, and that stopped me so many times. Yeah, like it was a why haven't you done it yet? Because I don't know what I want to say. Yeah, so what I've really learned is I just gotta start, and what I want to say, it might it's not what I want to say, it's really what these women want to say. It's just gonna happen through me. And and it's gonna evolve and it will probably change, and it'll probably be different for every woman. And and I'm really comfortable with that now. I just gotta get started. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So women, as well in industry, in organizations, don't get heard. That they don't get heard as much as the male engineer sitting next to you in the boardroom.
SPEAKER_00That's right. They don't get heard, and sometimes we're afraid to speak our voice. And and that's what I really want to. I want to have be that platform they can safe, a safe platform. Right. And just like wise women, where you can be heard and you can say things, and it's your opinion. Just because it's not the norm's opinion doesn't mean it's wrong. So I was also thinking about this. So I just wrote this down too in this question. Is also this this project might be honoring my younger self. Yes. Because that girl that nearly gave up. And I want to make sure that girls and women and people just hear that message. That they are capable and just stay with things even when it gets tough. If if that's really what's in your heart to do.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. Love it.
SPEAKER_00So this project's gonna go well for you because I can hear the I'm so excited. I just gotta get started.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Are you ready for your final question?
SPEAKER_00All right, I I do, yes. Before we I know you're gonna have to edit this out. I do want to talk about the tall poppy syndrome. Is that okay?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. We don't have to edit it out, by the way.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you don't have to edit that out. Well, I really want to talk about it because I think Australians need to hear.
SPEAKER_01If it's a point, we won't edit it out. Okay. All right. Okay. That's away. So we usually ask our listeners at this stage a quirky question. And in the past, it's always been, if you could go back and give your younger self a superpower, what would it be? But I think a lot of what you're doing is legacy work. And I think it's really important for us to actually explore this. You know, when you look at the body of work you've done, the Alamane stories, the wise women, the STEM projects, you're building a legacy. And what do you hope that these photographs and stories do in the world long after you've taken them?
SPEAKER_00Well, like I told you, this conversation has really given me time to pause and reflect. You've given me the gift that I hope I give a lot of all the women I work with. So thank you guys so much. Thank you. I'm really grateful for that. Thank you. And what really, when I look at the body of work I'm creating, and when I looked at those questions, yeah, it's so much more than portraits. And I really hope one day that um people can look back at the stories and say, wow, that's what life was like in the 20s and the 30s. Isn't that crazy? They're not even gonna say 2000, 20s and 30s, 2020s and 30s. And and that's what women were carrying at that time. And that's how they navigated their work, motherhood, loss, reinvention, ambition, doubt. Um and you know, history is so often written by leaders, and it's written about war and politics, and you know, I'm just interested in our everyday courage, and and that doesn't often make the headlines. Like I was so lucky that our Fifty and Wiser Club story made the headlines and was in the age. Like they needed a feel-good piece because really bad stuff was happening, and I was so honored and they so excited they chose us, they chose women. Like, I just was so excited. So, um, and I just want to do this for everybody, and I want women to know they are brave and they just not because they're doing something big and dramatic, just because they keep taking that daily step one before the other. And I really want women to know it's okay to celebrate themselves like you celebrate others because we I don't know, my mother, I made my mother have her 90th birthday party because she would never celebrate herself. And I wanted to tell her what I thought about her to her face, not at her funeral. So I really feel that everybody should celebrate themselves and let people tell them what they think about them because it's too late later. So, okay, and I would love for us in Australia to see beyond this tall poppy syndrome. Okay, I grew up with a mother who stood for what she wanted when I was with her. She didn't always do that, but she did, she had that courage at 45 and did that. She was bold, she was a trailblazer, and I didn't know anything different. Like, that's so that's like what she taught me. She really didn't teach me to stay small. So when I first heard this cutting down, like I had no idea what it was when people told me about it. I had had women all the time. Oh, women won't want to do that. You know the tall Bobby syndrome. I'm like, what the heck is that? You know, what is that? And I was like, really? Is that really a thing? Like, seriously, because to me it was like so I didn't understand it. And it really confused me because I'm very black and white. And I was like, really? Like, seriously, like that's so sad. So why would we not want other women to shine? So if my work can do anything, I hope it gives us permission to stand tall, permission to evolve, but we never stay the same. So, and to permission to do that and to be seen and heard without apology and feeling like we might someone might cut us down. So, yeah, I think you know, our life is rarely certain, our paths always change, forks kind of come where we never expect them. But over time, again and again, like what I see is when women trust themselves and keep moving forward, that's when the really meaningful things happen for them. And not just for them, but it I really believe in a ripple effect that if great things happen to us, it happens to our community, whatever that community may be. So I don't know. Maybe my legacy is to create something that says, You are here, your story matters, your courage counted. I see you, we all see you, and we hear you. And I don't know, long after I'm gone, I guess, maybe someone will read these and see all that, and they can say, Wow, I can relate to that, and they actually feel less alone because I really feel that's what our stories do. And they can feel seen and heard too. So that's what I feel. That's a big ask for my work, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01No, I don't think it is. I think that's you have the ability to do that. I I I and yeah, it's beautiful. I can't I can't wait to get my book. But I mean, not that I'm in a hurry, but I cannot wait. You wait till you see it, Rosemary. There's this bit in the middle that's just lovely.
SPEAKER_00Right now, and yours is the one that's first, it's like approved. So we have 30 more nine to get approved. It's great.
SPEAKER_01Great. I'd like to thank you so much. This has been wonderful. You yourself are an incredibly wise woman, and your transition journey yourself has just I'm hoping this will inspire a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you. Well, thank you. I really appreciate the platform. I know we went a little bit longer, but I really appreciate it. And I hope like I find that sometimes the small little details that you feel very insignificant in your life can actually be something that brings someone else's understanding of theirs.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Grey, thank you so much for thinking about the questions and really, you know, really thinking about them for us and our listeners. That was wonderful. And I've got a new yellow sticky to put up on my court board. Back yourself and never stay small. Love it. Yeah. Okay, Michelle. That interview with Grey was amazing, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I just loved it. She's such a I know she photographs wise women, but she herself is such a wise woman. Yeah, lots of um great wise things throughout that. Yeah. So what were your learnings? What were your key learnings?
SPEAKER_02Look, I think what touched me was don't stay small, it's not worth it, and back yourself and never stay small. Because I think sometimes we think as artists we're gonna do this, and we go, nah, that's not something I could do. And so I think it did really ring for me is don't stay small. And basically, yeah, back yourself, you can do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're good ones. They're really good ones. I actually liked it when she said ordinary lives have extraordinary wisdom. I d that touched me too because I think that sometimes people feel that they're not listened to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And this actually shows you that people are listened to and that they they are worthwhile in what they've done, especially a lot of women who go through the invisible stage of life. But yeah, I I really love that. And what's inspiring you at the rose?
SPEAKER_02It's a moment. Well, I've just finished or got ready my latest book, which is about a little little girl who uh takes her mum out into nature and through her eyes takes her mum off the phone and shows her and asks her, What do you see? What do you hear? And so it's called Through Greta's Eyes. But what I'm doing is during a shift is this is an example of when you get the final copy. And I haven't quite finished this Greta book, but I thought I'll send it off and get my author copy and see what it looks like, and then I'll do a little bit of updating. But it's really close, and I'm so excited about it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I had a curious question. What did Greta end up as? Did she end up with a sardine in her hair?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. Um no. She on the last page she has a sardine hair clip. Yes, and she's going to make a friend one, a hair clip. She's very good at making hair clips.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Seriously love that. I told you I saw somebody with a fried egg one in their hair the other day. Great. Yeah, I thought it was very cool.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I think Greta loves hair clips. Now, what are they doing?
SPEAKER_01I am I'm actually going through a massive shift in my work. And I think that I have struggled with ceramics being functional. And I have hit a stage where I'm going, no, it doesn't have to be functional. So I'm actually making a lot more sculptural pieces in my work. But when I say sculptural, I'm not talking about forms of people, but just sculpture as a sculpture. So it's very exciting. I can't show you anything yet because it's all in the cooking pot. But um, yeah, watch this space.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, I want to say to you, well done listening to what you need to do and make that shift.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think it's actually I did a programme with Amy and from the Daring Artist called Make Exceptional Work. And it has made me actually sit and contemplate my work a lot more and a lot more time spending in the in that cooking pot. And I actually got to a stage where I thought, well, I'm doing this exhibition and I can't resolve this exhibition, I'm gonna throw this whole exhibition away. And then I'm sitting there releasing an idea that I I feel I can no longer deal with and and work with because I put so many constraints around it. And letting it go gave me the freedom to think of new ideas of how I can do what I want. And I'm excited and inspired I'm excited and inspired by where that's going. Yeah, as I said, watch this space. Watch this space, can't wait. Yeah. Okay, Rosemary. We have some very exciting episodes in our book coming up, and um, as we get closer to the event, please watch Instagram to see them and to see what's coming up, and um we'll see you all in a couple of weeks' time. All right, is this the bit where we tell people we're not the um experts? Oh, we've already done that. We do that at the end. Okay. Yeah, we just add on a bit at the end, so yeah, it's okay. But I'm gonna leave this in because it's cute. Someone's in charge, that's what I like. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to Shift Stirrers Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you can get notified whenever we we release new content. We'd love to hear feel from you and feel free to reach out to us at theshift stirrers at gmail.com. Or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions. You can also connect to us on Instagram at ShiftStirrers. If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredible, incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or a rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others to discover the show. And if you know someone who will benefit from this episode, please share with them. Until next time, keep stirring the shift. Just a quick disclaimer Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of these discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting you curious to make changes. Thank you.