Shift Stirrers – Setting Up a gallery exhibition.

Shift Stirrers – Setting Up a gallery exhibition.

In this special episode recorded live in Michelle's studio, we sit down with sculptural artist Dana Falcini and ceramic artist Anna Battersby to talk about what emerging artists really need to know when setting up their first gallery exhibition. From dealing with fragile materials like bone and gut to understanding lighting and spatial flow, Dana and Anna share hard-won wisdom about installation. We explore the power of "less is more," the importance of letting your work breathe, why bringing your own toolbox is essential, and how to create exhibitions that invite viewers into a contemplative experience rather than overwhelming them. Whether you're planning your first solo show or wondering how to make group exhibitions work, this conversation is packed with practical advice, honest mistakes, and the kind of preparation tips that can transform how your work is experienced. Recorded in the same space where we all exhibited together, this episode captures the collaborative, supportive energy that makes good installations great

Thank you so much for listening to The Shift Stirrers podcast.

If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you'll get notified whenever we release new content. We'd love to hear from you—feel free to reach out at theshiftstirrers@gmail.com, or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions.

You can also connect with us on Instagram @shiftstirrers.

If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others discover the show. And if you know someone who would benefit from this episode, please share it with them.

Until next time, keep stirring things up.

Ah just a quick disclaimer - Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of the discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting curious about change.

You can purchase Rosemary's books on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0FS275RHJ

Our other contacts
 theshiftstirrers@gmail.com

rosemarypattison@gmail.com

 info@michellebenson.com.au

https://rosemarypattisonart.com/

https://michellebenson.com.au/

https://www.instagram.com/rosemarypattisonart/

https://www.instagram.com/michelle_benson_art/

Music by Sound Designer Erin Krejany

https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-krejany-186829355

e.krejany@gmail.com 

Thank you so much for listening to The Shift Stirrers podcast.

If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you'll get notified whenever we release new content. We'd love to hear from you—feel free to reach out at theshiftstirrers@gmail.com, or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions.

You can also connect with us on Instagram @shiftstirrers.

If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others discover the show. And if you know someone who would benefit from this episode, please share it with them.

Until next time, keep stirring things up.

Ah just a quick disclaimer - Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of the discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting curious about change.

You can purchase Rosemary's books on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0FS275RHJ

Our other contacts
 theshiftstirrers@gmail.com

rosemarypattison@gmail.com

 info@michellebenson.com.au

https://rosemarypattisonart.com/

...

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Shift Dirts. Before we dive in, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands where we record. Michelle and Rosemary work on the lands of the Bun Morang and Warangeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging. As we talk about transitions and shifts in our own lives, we recognise that First Nations people have been adapting, surviving and thriving on this continent for over 65,000 years. The world's longest continuing culture. Sovereignty was never seeded, always was, always will be. So, Rosemary, how are we stirring the shift today? I'm not sure. I think you're going to tell me. You don't know how we're stirring the shift? Well, Rosemary, we are doing a podcast where we are all in the same room. And we've got the lovely Donna and Anna with us. And yeah, that's stirring the shift as far as I'm concerned, Rosemary. It certainly is. Do you know why we stir the ship first more? No, I don't. You don't. We do it so that people who are interested in changing their lifestyle from a corporate career to a more artisian lifestyle can actually listen to what other people are doing and get curious about that change. So I'm Michelle Benson. And I'm Rosemey Patterson, and we are the shifters. Yay! Thank you. Okay, welcome Donna and Anna. Now we do. Hi guys, thank you for having us. Would you like to tell me a bit about yourself, Dana? Okay, I see myself as a sculptor and installation artist. I use um natural materials like bone, fish skin, pig gut that I clean and tan and um bring into my art. Oh beautiful, beautiful. I've worked with both Dana and Anna and their work is fantastic. Anna, would you like to describe your work as well? Sure. So yeah, I'm a ceramic artist from Sydney originally, but I now live in like in Melbourne. I usually work with Vecil. Or most of my work will use slip in some way. Very interested in looking at gesture and movement within different forms of slip, be it liquid or viscous. That's okay, that's fascinating. We're really happy to have you here. This is going to be a giggly one, I can say. Um I can't. Now, what we're going to talk to you about today is about how to set up a gallery exhibition. So a lot of people, um, a lot of our listeners are in their emerging stages of being an artist. They're probably on their first, their second exhibition. Roseme and I were fortunate enough to do an exhibition with yourselves and the lovely Amy Cohen, who is not with us today. But we got so much from, I learned so much from you ladies. So I just thought this would be something that our listeners would be interested in too. Um, Roseme, would you like to ask the first question? Yes, and Michelle, we did it in this room, your studio, so that was a lot of fun as well. It was fun. And I am asking Anna. You come from the graphic design and digital media, incredibly controlled films. Your ceramic work is more spent on tones, if I'm right, with gesture and action. How has that design background influenced how you think about installing and displaying your work? Yeah, it's it's a huge influence. Um it's you know, I didn't know designer, so it's about a an easy one to shake off. Um and all those design skills that I've learnt and um you know can carry through strongly into exhibition setup or design. And I think a lot of artists actually intuitively have a lot of those skills and ability to see. I think how things are aligned and contrast and repetition, all those kind of design principles that you know artists probably engage with without realizing it, maybe. So yeah, it's it's been um a huge influence, and I've had a long career in graphic design. You know, I'm always happy to use my graphic design to do any promotional materials for exhibition. What a grave extra to your house. It's it is lovely. Um I think I was thinking that when you said about the um intuitiveness of putting uh installing your work, and and I think that's that is something that you learn as an artist to trust that instinct. And I think we all do that with you know in your books and in your your ceramic works. And I and I think that's one of the most difficult things to learn or or to let go or to yeah, to let go of no, it's to trust, isn't it? To trust is that instinct. And that's yeah. Maybe time or you know, some people just seem to have it, but it's taken me a little time to trust. And I well I think that's how it worked really well with all of us here, because when something was off, there was so many other people that could say, Oh yeah, okay, I see that, and what about if you try that? And and they offered different ways of of just moving, even it was just slightly to the left or to the right. It you know really helped bring it all together. Yeah, and that was a collective absolute yeah, yeah. That's great. That's wonderful. Your materials, bone, gut, copper, skin, hair, they're not conventional gallery materials, and I remember them hanging up here. You knew what you wanted, which installing work that's both fragile and has such a presence. What have you learned about displaying those pieces over the years? I think it's it is that trust that we were talking about. So um I think originally I thought everything that I made was really fragile and I was really worried that um that they would move too much or they might you know, might fall apart. I I don't know. I think that um having it here, what what was wonderful was that everything that I was nervous about actually became a bonus. It was such a plus. I learned so much about how because previously when I had had an exhibition, everything was in a tight environment. So it had a plinth on the floor, it didn't allow people to walk through the work. And so I entered this exhibition with this huge fear of, oh my gosh, there's you know, people are going to be banging it and and walking through it and touching and in actual fact, because that happened, I grew so much in that one, I trusted my work, and two, there was such awe and wonder both ways. So from people who were walking through it, but also for me to watch their faces and how they were experiencing the work. So I guess this uh doesn't answer the question, but then I've just I've gone off somewhere. But that was, yeah, it was really exciting, and it was such a huge lesson for me. I've really walked away going, Wow, okay, it's opens up doors of of other ways that I can do my exhibition. Huge benefits of um, you know, if you haven't exhibited much before, is just getting out there and doing it because you're gonna see your work in a different way, and it's really exciting to have it, you know. It's just a small exhibition. We set it up opening night, you've got people coming in, gauging, and you Yeah, it's you don't see yeah, it's very informative. Everything is informative, that's exactly right. I'm I'm gonna add to it to that and say that I've been to a couple of exhibitions lately. Names I can't remember. I always think of her as the dot lady and yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what and uh she her work is so immersive. And I think that my perception of when I exhibit and how I exhibit has changed because of experiencing her work. That's fantastic. Yeah, I think that that's something if you haven't done an exhibition before and you're thinking about doing one, go to big exhibitions. Yeah, because uh even we went to the Vivian Westwood one, which we were actually doing a podcast on. We learned so much going to that, and the way they present them these days and the immersiveness of them is just incredible. Yeah, that's that's a good learning. Oh, yeah, it's you go in with that in mind, you know, the curse of the designers. You're always kind of looking at, oh, how is that thing done? Do but yeah, you do, and um it's nice just to put that lens on for a minute when you're in a new exhibition and just just look around and see how things are done. Big and small. Lighting, I think we didn't have much lighting in here that we played with, but lighting is so important, and and and in my next exhibition, lighting is gonna play a huge part, actually. A huge part. That's great. I remember Anna, you working with your pints for a long time and changing them. This question is about what makes a display resonate. So your work seeks resonance with the natural world. Like when you walk into a gallery and see your work installed, what's going on there? So you've hit the nail on the head, I think, with lighting is really key, especially the porcelain work. And just like considered lighting, I think, is is also I mean I like exhibitions that have created a mood and a story. I find it's they really resonate. You know, you're kind of guided through the space and nothing's jarring. Go to the next, be it visually or thematically. And yeah, you it it's a space that guides you through. You know, you know, you get to some shows that are too crowded or too many works and you don't want to go in there. I think you get lost in it, don't you?

unknown 9:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Well, because you want the pieces for people to spend time with each piece. And it's it's like going into an op shop and it's really crowded, and I just have to walk out because I can't I can't think enough. So really I think it is. It is it's pulling back and and allowing each piece room to breathe. I love that. And you know what? I I think about that statement all the time now. Have to let the work breathe. It's gotta stop being so cluttered. And in fact, some stuff that I'm working on at the moment, I'm now I'm thinking about this hand myself, is it breathing enough? So yeah, it is something that is always, always in the back of my mind. And I think Donna helped you with your letting it breathe, whether how many things to display. That's correct. Can you talk about that? Well, I actually had when we had our exhibition here, I had I think 24 paintings ready to hang. But I ended up only hanging five. Um, and I'd also got some porcelain masks, which I I still have up there. And um I hung them. And I think that it was the fact that there was less there made what was there look more uh not important, but it all could speak. Yes. That so it could breathe and speak, which I think is very important. That they played off each other, so it it may it gave that whole space an air of where we could go in and experience it. Whereas if it had been cluttered, it would have been just where are we going here? What am I supposed to look at? You know, what what am I supposed to understand from this? And I think that's where it is, isn't it? It's just trying to focal point. Yeah, to understand what you're trying to say, or I don't know, I don't think it's about trying to understand it. It's about trying to have presence, isn't it? Yes, room to see and so Donna, your question was similar. That's they've sort of almost done it anymore from you on that about making work truly sing, and especially with your other world worldly stillness. Well, I think um I kind of like the the word sing, but uh for me I really aim for stillness and presence. And I like the idea that one, the work asks people to stop and feel and breathe. You know, just that to remember to breathe. Because I think we live in such a fast-paced world that we're it's full of media and social media and you know, it's all bang, bang, bang, fast, it's all got to be over in a second. And I think we just all need to just stop and breathe and to feel and listen again to what we have already. Um yeah, I think that's it's just oh you know what's a lot because you've got such beautiful details. So you get the right lighting and you draw and you're fascinated by it because you're wondering what it's made out of. Um, but also when we had the exhibition here and they were just shifting ever so lightly and they're dangling down, just very soft movement. It was just stunning. Thank you. I'll get you to send me photos of the work from that exhibition so that I can actually add them to the podcast and people can see what we're talking about. Because you know, Donna, I can still visualize your work in here. I can I I I have beautiful plants hanging out there, but I I can still if I close my eyes, I can still see your work. And that to me means that it really made a statement in me. So it's from all your wisdom now we're on to um mistakes for our listeners. Um I know, but but with your designer, you'd probably have a trained eye for what else sort of some mistakes you might want to tell our listeners okay. You know, the types of exhibitions I've been involved in, some have been, you know, more at the ward shows where you send your work in and you really don't get a say. So let's make that click. Yeah, you can write down, and I've done this with special needs that it has, and it gets ignored. So just be prepared for that. If you're sending your work off to a you know, a show that's curated elsewhere. Um yeah, and and actually, like because I've had a lot of things go a bit wrong with that, and I I don't think I would enter work that has conditional. Having said that, and I agree, because I've also had that where you feel like your work was overshadowed by something my mind's very earthy, so you can yeah, if it's full of something that's really bright, they kind of don't work together at all. But having said that, with the last exhibition, group exhibition I was in, they were so careful with the way they displayed it. I was really overwhelmed by that. I was something like no, but it is something, yeah. So that there is good out there, but just I guess what I was saying is once you've released it, you don't have control. You don't have control. And unless it's a painting that becomes quite challengeable. I I can I can tell you a story and um uh um of someone very close to me that I know very well. Uh a prince in Paris when she was in Paris, and um took it in to get it framed and said to the frame, well, you framed it wrong. And the frame said, No, this piece is supposed to be standing up. I said, No, no, no. She's a newt by Monet, and she's supposed to be lying down, and um, yeah, it was supposed to be standing up. And Monet. When it comes to comes to that, really, whoever takes it away can do whatever they like with it. Well, that's that's yeah, yeah. And this is an aside from what you're saying, but uh I believe that once you've created something and it goes to someone else, it's it's it's it's its own person, its own story. It creates its own thing. So you're no longer in control of that. Yeah, yeah, you're rough. Release the control. But then I guess my other advice is the flip side of that, which is more the artist run initiatives and that kind of you're doing everything yourself. So that's um I think I've been in situations where artists hadn't really thought of you know, so just taking the time to prepare before you come in, like get everything, lots of preparation, make sure if you need to get shells and things sorted that you do that. Don't necessarily rely on the space to provide that for you. Often they will, but um they might not be in the best shape. You know, I you know, just painting a plinth as well can really enhance your work. I think it's a certain type of white, which works well with my porcelain, for example. That's a good thing to consider, and I think um, yeah, when you're setting up a show and you know, everybody's there and everyone wants to be respectful of everybody in space. Sometimes a leader will kind of come out, and other times, you know, it's like, no, what do you want? Yeah, what do you want? Like everyone's usually love too lovely, anyway. Um so it can be a long day of just negotiating. It is important, I think, at some point. No, no, no, I agree. I I have to admit that this was the first group show that I'd ever set up that put works into group exhibitions and you've got no say in it. And the other exhibitions, the solo ones I've had, I've been in control of where it's going, but I've had somebody to help me install it. So it's um yeah. But so this was the first one, and and I think you were the you were a great leader, Anna. I think I think there was a lot of clarity between everyone. I think it worked out really well. I think we all Tom, of course, Tom Ells. Who actually came and um did a lot of the installation, which took pressure off us? Oh, it was fantastic, yeah, yeah. And he had such great experience and and he had his own aesthetics and he his aesthetics sort of reached us reached in with all of us, didn't it? But like we all agree that that it was all it was all good with. I think it made made it um cohesive. Yeah, right. I was thinking that when you're actually in a group exhibition and everybody's got different things, getting that cohesive feel. And a lot of people did say to me, oh wow, it's cohesive. So getting that cohesive feel I think is very, very important. And that was the the flow that Adam was talking about was you know entering in and then having a direction, how to flow around the room. And if you watch, most people had that direction, almost like a figure eight. Yeah, and we turned we didn't know what children was installing, didn't we? No. It was quite a feat actually to sit to look at all our works and work out which ones resonated with each other and where they needed to sit in relation to each other. And I think that short period of time we did. And we did very well. But I think what was one of the best things that happened with that is that you had invited us here prior to the setup day to get to know the space and understand it. I guess that in that way we kind of had where things may or may not go. Is it lunchtime, Michelle? Too it's uh for me though, uh it's left me with a beautiful feeling. I think it blessed this studio in a way because um I I'm I d uh to to actually have an exhibition in here again would be a feat. I'd have to hire a taxi truck on a taxi truck. And I don't think I could I I don't think I could do it. So it's got lovely memory. It was such a good idea, and it was um yeah, it was really beautiful. Um not just on your eye, but you seem to work on each other's. I think um well, I think that was um not so much the installation part, but our work, the work that I bought in because I knew um what Amy's her uh textile work was, I bought work in that really complemented that. I mean I bought a heap of other things which we didn't put out because they weren't necessary. Um so I chose the ones that complemented each other and it was it was exciting. We had that moment of a buzz. So oh, these were great together. And it was really funny because we were all happy just sitting hanging around. Yes. The whole again, we were just all happy just hanging around. Yeah, in the space, it was nice. So we've got feeling nice. So um let's move to the next question, and I'll just ask it and see who wants to answer it. Yeah. That's how we're going, isn't it? So um when we talk about how installation transforms experience, we've talked about the flow of demand setup. Um, how can you give an example of um how the installation might have changed the way people engaged in the experience? I can I can give an example of that um some of the work I did at uni, which has a lot of pieces, and I install that in a room at uni, and it's kind of my first experience of like understanding what it means to activate a space. Like I had the work hanging, I I couldn't control the lighting so much, so it was natural lighting mostly. But a lot of space between these objects. Watching, I like with your work done, and watching people just walk amongst it and that very quiet, sort of contemplative state they got in. I was quite like amazed by it actually. And um it was lovely. And then I did the same, I displayed the same piece of work in a gallery setting, which was a bit more controlled, the pieces were closer together, and the light was such a different feel, I can't tell you. Like it sort of put people outside of work, just not even because of the way like you could still sort of walk near it, but the lighting of it as well gave it but you stepped back from it rather than moving in. Yeah. But the benefit of that particular show was it had all these beautiful shadows came off the work. So I think they were both successful. Um exhibitions, I just think displays, I should say. But um it was just really, really informative for me to see the work in those two environments. I learned a lot. Yeah, I think um that's interesting because I had a my last solo the exhibition. I I um I really wanted my work to be in like more still and and have that uh find a Balance within it all. And the gallery put this bright light on it. Which was lovely because it had copper bits and it and it kind of picked up my nose and all and there was a lot of shimmering things happening. But there was a lot of shadow. And um like the shadows from my work, I think they're gorgeous, but I was a little bit overwhelmed by the shadows because I thought it took over. Shriveling it. Yes. So but that was on opening night. During the day, when the light was coming through the windows of the gallery, it changed. Then it softened the shadows a little bit, which I was so glad to see because I really I didn't want the work to be about the shadows. I wanted the work to be about the work. Is that what I said? So anyway, it lighting can be a challenge. That is a funny way, isn't it? It was always opening night, and the words can look really different from the rest of the show. Can I throw in a curveball question? That's that's not the question. I've used um Erin as our sound designer recently, and she's creating the background music in this podcast. Uh and uh I've learned a lot about sound from Erin. And I was wondering, have you used sound in your excessions in certain ways to actually transform an exhibition as well? That's really great. That's a great question. I have in the past used sound for outdoor exhibitions. And it is it was meant to create uh, you know, another world being used to bring people into an attorney table. Um, one one exhibition that's they were done, it's like a done on the um train station, uh one of the um rooms in the old uh train stations. So passers by and people commuting can can see your art. And this particular piece had a heartbeat that went for it, but they asked us to turn it off because it was scary. It was a book book. So you know, maybe sometimes you have to think about it. I've been thinking about the uh, you know, bringing music for ages in with my art, but then I wonder if it will, especially with my installations, whether it will steer it too much for people not to let allow the viewers to have their own mind, you know, make up their own mind about their and finding like their selves in it. You know, it would be made yeah, it's it's something that could be quite fun. It c it it could it could be a lot of fun. Um and it's something that I'm thinking about for my next ex for my exhibition when I'm when when it gets it gets finished. Yeah, it's definitely something that I think it's uh yeah, things that it's really worth looking into. Well we we looked at it with the podcasts and I think it's we um it makes a big difference because you can use it to change the tempo of a conversation. Uh you can use it to make something some more serious or more sad. And I I learned all that thank you, Erin. I learned all of that. We should keep moving because I have got no idea how long we've been going. I've got no idea either.

unknown 24:57

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Um, great. So practical wisdom for first-time installers for someone who is going to be installing their first solo show and they're working with unconventional materials, maybe not burning gut at something challenging. So for you, Donna? I'd say yeah, I think I think that's a great question. I definitely think that you have to know your materials, and I don't I don't think it matters what you're using, you just have to know your materials, how they move. You need to, I'll guess again, overcrowding. Don't overcrowd. Give everything space. And and that's something like you said, Michelle, you made all these beautiful paintings, but you didn't use them all in your exhibition. I make a lot of work, but they don't all go in. Yes. And I think that there are certainly I've been to a couple of exhibitions where I just wish they'd pulled back a little bit. You know, there there were too many ideas happening. Um, and and I'm not saying that I'm perfect because I love it. But yes, when you just think, okay, but you've got this idea and you've got this idea, you've got this idea and you've got this idea. What happened if you pulled at least two of them out? Yeah. And then just kept the two flowing. And I think your idea of a a retail store is a good idea for an emerging artist to think about you're walking and wear so much stuff, you just walk straight out. Yeah. Yeah. And Anna? Um, yeah, I think Darnell, you're right. Like bringing extra work if you can, I think, is a really good idea. But just be prepared, you're not going to show it all exactly what's going to work best into you in this space. A lot of the time. Sometimes it you can't do it. If you can bring one or two extra pieces, I I always think that's a good way forward. Be prepared. Be prepared. Have to be prepared. I've always got it. Preparation. Yeah, I think I think we talked about the toolbox we both. Yes. Yeah, the install toolbox is is key. Yeah, you got your tape measures, your rulers, yeah, yeah, museum gel, um, drills, draw bits, touch-up paint, electrical cords, like whatever you might need. Oh, totally. Go over overkill it. Like it's it's because you'll never have enough enough. And even if the gallery has most of these things, you've got multiple people wanting to use them at the same time. Yes. Um, so you're gonna be the hero in the toolbox, which is good. Yeah. And also when you're setting up, just be prepared that you're probably gonna move your work. Just, you know, make sure your work's packaged in a way that you can move it without damage. You know, you got people with ladders and spirit levels and things can get broken, especially if you know it's your first time doing it. Just you know. And with me, the um with installation work, I I come with a map. So I know exactly and usually I know the room size and I know how I'm going to how where I want it placed and things. So I come with a map of so for me, the positioning on the ceiling, where I want each piece, and then also um how far off the floor. So I always measure my work when I've done it, hung it um up on or in the studio. I measure it from the floor because you don't know how tall it a ceiling is. So it's much better to know that you want that piece this far off from the floor and the next piece to be on the angle, this angle, and then that to be that far off. I I agree with you, but that brings the point that you've you're actually so prepared that you viewed the venue. You're having just turned it out to the end of the venue. Oh yeah, no, you have to do you have to. I think when you're there, you talk to the gallery owner on quick that they have, all that kind of stuff. Uh and I think uh yes, definitely speak with the gallery before you don't go in, talk with them, need to um find out if you're gonna have somebody helping you install or whether you need to bring an army in with you. Um, you know, uh have they got a ladder? Do you need to bring your ladder? I just always bring my toolbox. If you bring your toolbox, just bring your toolbox. Because you do not want you do not want to have to go out and do a bunnings trip or you know, a hardware trip or whatever. Yeah. I know, I know somebody just recently um who actually was about to put on an exhibition and there was some circumstances and the Galleriona just gave her the keys and said, It's about to you and Yeah, that the Galleriona couldn't be there. And um she certainly had to find an army to help her to put it together. And I know you mentioned something about you had to go in and set all the stuff up at the top once, was that? Yeah. No, I thought that I might have to, and um, so I did a a quick trip to the gallery. I made an appointment with the curator, and I said, okay, it's all going to be suspended. This is, you know, I'm gonna use this X amount of space on the ceiling, and I took in what I thought we could I could hang the work from, and they just said, not your work, we want it straight from the ceiling. So that's when I had a floor map that was down on the floor, and also all the measurements from the ceiling, how far each dot was going to be. But again, you have to be prepared that things are not always going to work out because certain spots couldn't be taken because there was going to be an electrical cord, you know, they they couldn't just put a drill up and put a hook up in the ceiling. So you have to be flexible enough to know that it's not always those will be perfect and you're gonna have to bend yourself slightly. So it's give and take. Yes, of course. Make sure they've got power points. You can bring restriction cords and tape to cover and you've got to do all the definitely. And make sure there's no trip hazards. You've painted walls as well. I've painted walls. Yeah, I think this is a great yes. Yeah, that was a really that was a good um a good good one actually. There's uh my porcelain work which is from uni actually, and I originally put it on a on a paint. You know, I'd reflected on it and decided it wasn't quite right. So I just I just went in and painted the wall a different colour, really soft, beautiful blue. It just works so nicely with the porcelain. And it also sort of defined the space of the work. So it almost so nudged it out a bit and yeah, it gave it the breathing room. Um yeah, so that was that was good. And and um most most galleries will allow you to do this just to return it to the original colour, and they'll usually have a big bucket of paint for you to do that with to bring you. It's easier than you think to change certain things to hum. And um I've seen that you've had actually uh took out hanging things. I had to hang a big porcelain work and there was nowhere to hang it. So I actually I won't well I didn't I didn't want to hang it on the wall, I wanted it suspended. So I had to bring in my own bean. I've brought in my own little piece of wood fantastic to hang off. Yeah, yeah. It was a lot of effort, but it worked well. I want to look gorgeous. I have seen installations that had that's why I bought all this mesh in to say, well, okay, I can hang up from this, you know, this is the size, in some exhibitions, especially um group exhibitions. Again, uh there's one specifically that I'm thinking of, and it was hanging from from mesh. And I guess that was because it had to be presented to the gallery already hung. But it does take away from not a beautiful beam, but some mesh um can can affect too much. Well that's okay. Yeah, true, true. Okay, fair enough. Well my goodness, what a big lessons. Um huge lessons. Yeah. What's your favourite lesson in the show? I'm gonna have to read because I can't remember. Not tell your mind then. Okay. What keeps coming up for me is less is better. Be more, but less is better. And that whole thing of less visual noise, and so you're sort of trying to tell a story with an exhibition, I guess, and you have less visual noise. Donna's talks about space for people to actually absorb and and sit as well. So what about you? Okay, scout, be prepared. That is the biggest thing. Boy Scout, be prepared, considering the viewer's journey. I think they're the two big things that I think that you do need to think about. I agree with yours, by the way, and I would have chosen that secure. I would be the first. Roseme, I know we still had guests here. We usually do this after guests are gone, but Roseme, what's been inspiring you lately? I've got no idea. No idea. Well, I'm off to the post office to pick up my piece of Gretrafts and I'll be my latest book, I'll be bringing them to your market next Sunday, so that'll be great to be roaming around. We'll be roaming around like the quarters. We aren't going to be roaming around. We're going to do a market special and we're roaming around. That's such a good idea. What's inspiring you? I think that um I'm still working on my new sculptural pieces. And I'm inspired by the feedback I've got off Dana and Anna, which which has made me think a bit more. And even the statement today, less is more, and I'm looking at them going, Yes, how can I make that less but more? So yeah, and also I think actually I'm inspired by the fact that we've done this in the gallery in in studio space, and it's such a beautiful space to do it, and then I feel so comfortable. I'd like to do more like this rosemary. Right. A lot more. So everybody, thank you, Donna. Thank you. And Port Melbourne for now. Port Melbourne or South Melbourne, we'll figure it out. South Melbourne. Okay, and thank you, listeners. Okay, bye for now. Thank you so much for listening to Shift Stirrers Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you can get notified whenever we we release new content. We'd love to hear feel from you and feel free to reach out to us at theshift stirrers at gmail.com. Or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions. You can also connect to us on Instagram at ShiftStirrers. If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredible, incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or a rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others to discover the show. And if you know someone who will benefit from this episode, please share with them. Until next time, keep stirring the shift. Just a quick disclaimer Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of these discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting you curious to make changes. Thank you.