Shift Stirrers
Has there been a time in your life when you wanted to make changes? If you're changing something about your vocation and passion we are the podcast to help motivate you. Our focus is on interviewing people who have made life changing transitions
Shift Stirrers
Shift Stirrers – Julie Cliff - One Space at a Time
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In this episode, we meet Julie Cliff, a professional organizer with an unexpected journey - from cooking for her family at age 7 on a country farm, to becoming Melbourne Storm's first female life member, to running her own decluttering business. The twist? Julie isn't "naturally organized" - she taught herself because she couldn't stand the mess! We challenge Julie with our Creative Chaos Challenge: helping a hypothetical ceramic artist drowning in clay dust, mystery glazes, and 17 half-finished projects. Her advice is practical, compassionate, and surprisingly freeing. From the "cutlery drawer philosophy" to tackling shame and guilt, Julie shows us that organizing isn't about perfection - it's about clearing space and time for what actually matters. This one's for anyone who's ever felt overwhelmed by the mess and wondered where to start.the chaos rather than fighting it
Professional Organiser Melbourne I Space and Time
Thank you so much for listening to The Shift Stirrers podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you'll get notified whenever we release new content. We'd love to hear from you—feel free to reach out at theshiftstirrers@gmail.com, or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions.
You can also connect with us on Instagram @shiftstirrers.
If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others discover the show. And if you know someone who would benefit from this episode, please share it with them.
Until next time, keep stirring things up.
Ah just a quick disclaimer - Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of the discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting curious about change.
You can purchase Rosemary's books on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0FS275RHJ
Our other contacts
theshiftstirrers@gmail.com
https://rosemarypattisonart.com/
https://michellebenson.com.au/
https://www.instagram.com/rosemarypattisonart/
https://www.instagram.com/michelle_benson_art/
Music by Sound Designer Erin Krejany
https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-krejany-186829355
Thank you so much for listening to The Shift Stirrers podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you'll get notified whenever we release new content. We'd love to hear from you—feel free to reach out at theshiftstirrers@gmail.com, or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions.
You can also connect with us on Instagram @shiftstirrers.
If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others discover the show. And if you know someone who would benefit from this episode, please share it with them.
Until next time, keep stirring things up.
Ah just a quick disclaimer - Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of the discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting curious about change.
You can purchase Rosemary's books on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/B0FS275RHJ
Our other contacts
theshiftstirrers@gmail.com
Welcome to the Shift Stirrus. Before we dive in, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands where we record. Michelle and Roseme work on the lands of the Bun Morang and Worangeri people of the Kulin Nation. We pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging. As we talk about transitions and shifts in our own lives, we recognise that First Nations people have been adapting, surviving, and thriving on this continent for over 65,000 years. The world's longest continuing culture. Sovereignty was never ceded, always was, always will be.
SPEAKER_01Hello everyone. This is the Shift Stirrers. I'm Michelle Benson, Rosemary Patterson, and today in the studio we have Julie Cliff. Julie Cliff is a leading expert in transforming chaotic schedules and chaotic lives. So we thought she was actually a really good person to have on. She has an interesting life herself, but she's gonna give us artists some handy tips.
SPEAKER_02Rosemary, why do we stir the shift? Do you know what Michelle Benson? I know why we stir the shift today. We stir the shift because we're asking our audience, has there been a time in your life when you wanted to make changes? If you're changing something about your vocation and passion, this is a podcast to motivate you and you'll find out more. Our focus is on interviewing people who have made life-changing transitions. We haven't got the answers, but hearing other people's stories, we hope you get curious about what's available to you. I'm Rosemary Patterson.
SPEAKER_01Michelle Benson, and we're the shift starers. Thank you, thank you, Rosemary, and thank you, Julie. Rosemary is going to ask you the first question because we actually are fascinated by your own shifts in life. Very, very interesting. So we will we will start with those.
SPEAKER_02Awesome. So the first question is about where you came from. So you grew up on a wheat and sheep farm in Carniva. Is it called Carniva? Carniva, yeah, like Carniva Pie. Yeah, and um it's not close to Melbourne. I had a look on the map. And you were the oldest of four kids. Your mum worked an admin at the hospital, but did the you but also did the cleaning and cooking at home. By seven years old, you were cooking for the whole house. That's amazing. Because you had to fend for yourselves. Tell us about that and what did that teach you from growing up doing that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's pretty special to grow up on a, you know, really large wheat and sheep farm and um and as you're sort of suggesting, have the independence to do your do things for yourself in in a way. As you're suggesting, dad was on the tractor running the farm. Mum um worked a couple of different jobs to be able to help put money on the table because, as you would understand, with the farm, it's not a regular income. You get paid when the crops uh you know um uh harvested and you get paid when the sheep will get sold. So mum was, you know, doing what she could to bring the money in. So that meant that we were often home by ourselves and I'd be hungry, so I would just make the dinner for everybody. And as you said, that was from a pretty early age, just taking that on. And it was just something that, you know, no one said, or would you like to? It was just a matter of I stood up, I think, to take it on, otherwise we'd be eating wheat bicks or Milo on ice cream, which are all our favourite things. But you know, we're just doing and helping out where we could in relation to that. Mum didn't really help much on the farm, us kids helped a little bit, but that was really what Dad did. So being the oldest of four, it was sort of my job to be able to help them. Mum was often at work early, so I'd be getting everybody up and through the shower on onto the school bus. We had a little bomb that we would drive, you know, almost K down the driveway to where we would get the school bus. So just a responsibility at a young age, but it wasn't anything that you know you must do, or it was something that I just took on and enjoyed doing and was, I suppose I was I was good at it, but you know, pretty amazing life growing up on a on a farm where you've just got the freedom, uh 20 minutes trip out of town, so 35k's out of the closest town, which was Kniver. So uh having that freedom and just being able to do what we what we wanted to do as kids, climbing trees, jumping on the trampoline, trampoline, running through the sprinkler. But always knew that that I wasn't going to stay in Kniver. It was always that I would go somewhere to do something. You know, you can you can work at the local pub, there's a lot of pretty good jobs, there's um, you know, agriculture and and those sorts of things around, but there was always that idea that I would leave home to to go to uni, and so that's that's what I ended up doing.
SPEAKER_02And a kilometre to the front gate, but did you say?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we we would have a I think we had a uh my Datson one mine at the time that's the 121. Did you? That's a good little car. We called mine the lemon because it was a like a light yellow colour. So I was driving from like three helping around the farm, but yeah, we'd all all be driving and just drive up to the gate and you know the school bus would wait for us if we're a bit late, but we'd we weren't normally running behind because if you w were too late, the bus would go without you.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Wow, amazing. How lovely that the bus would wait.
SPEAKER_00Michelle.
SPEAKER_02What age were you driving from?
SPEAKER_00Oh, probably three. I mean, I'm only a very small person now, but it was even smaller then. Uh we would have a column shift, like a manual, so you'd have to dip down underneath the steering wheel to be able to push the clutch and to change gears.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Um my grandson was telling me about somebody who's um 12 and can drive a car. So I'm gonna go back to him and say, I have a friend who drove the car from the age of three. I love that. I love that thing. So you wanted to work in fashion and you went to Adelaide and got a certificate in uh fashion and you worked as in PR in Warnerbull for three years, then you came to Melbourne, all by yourself, I might add, knowing uh knowing nobody, which is which is seriously in 1996, that yeah, I mean it was yeah, I would have been terrified, I m I must admit. Um it didn't go as planned, and you ended up working for a deco recruitment. How how did how did you feel about it all? And how did you how did you how did you deal with everything?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, again, as you as I said before, that I always knew that I would leave home at a young age to go to uni. So the first step was to Adelaide for that certificate for a year, like you said, and I lived with a family friend for a year. So I was still 17 when I left, I didn't turn 18 till the April. So that first year, as I said, boarding with somebody not too far away from TAFE, did the certificate of fashion, pattern making, dress design, the sewing construction, because that's what I always did growing up, um, making my own clothes. You know, of course, we're talking 30, 35 years ago. Well, 30, yeah, that's it is almost that long. And so, you know, things weren't just as available as you know, just jumping onto Amazon now and and grabbing whatever you want to wear. So we we would make it and living in in the bush as well. And so that was how I became interested in fashion. And so thought, well, let's put fashion and public relations together because I thought I would talk to our counsellors at school and they said, We are like people, you should do PR. Really, I probably should have been a receptionist, but anyway, they thought PR would be good. Um, so did PR marketing, did very well at at those studies in Warnable, and then, as you said, moved to Melbourne with the idea of doing PR in the fashion industry, but came to Melbourne here in 1996, didn't know anyone, didn't know anyone in fashion. I'd only really been to Melbourne in year 11, was the first time I ever came to Melbourne. We would go more to Adelaide because Kenniva's a little bit closer and my mum's family was there. So got here and applied for. I've still got a lot of the applications actually because you know they're just a big part of my life. That's what I thought I was going to do. But anyway, lots of rejection letters. No, you're not whatever they might have been, whatever the reasons were, but I just couldn't even get a job as a reception in fashion. And that, well, I've got to do something. So that's how I ended up with a Deco, they're a recruitment agency and a labour hire firm. So I went out to a few places as a as a temp and worked for a Deco, and some of those places were really hard, like an outbound call centre where you had to ring and see if uh it was a photophone, seeing if their phones were working, so that was quite tricky. But and then um I ended up doing a little stint in the Adeco State Office, which is just down the road from where I live now in Burke Road in um not Campbell, it's uh Melbourne East. And I was there for a couple of weeks, and they just thought, well, they quite liked the work that I was doing and my cool, like unflappable sort of energy, I suppose. And and that's sort of where that started on on reception, just filling in for a couple of days with with a deco. And then they said, well, we've got a marketing role available, and I had the marketing background, and so ended up sort of working reception and with the marketing team, and that's where I ended up being interested in Melbourne Storm, which I'm sure is going to be your next question. But that was just how the cards fell. I I needed a job, I needed something to do, need to pay the bills, so ended up with with the deco, and that was quite a turning turning point in the transition, the crossroads, so to speak.
SPEAKER_01Just to make you feel a bit better, the year that you came to Melbourne, uh, because my first degree was in fine arts and fashion, and the year you came to Melbourne was the year that the tariffs came off in relation to importing goods from other countries into on clothing into Australia. So that the industry itself at that stage was in an absolute turmoil and businesses were going broke left, right, and centre. I had no idea. There you go. Including me, lost their jobs within the fashion industry because of that. And that's why I transferred into accounting because I thought this is a mugs game, I I'm getting out of this. So yeah, uh it just so that makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_00And I had no idea, but that makes complete sense. They wouldn't have been taking on anybody by the sound of that alone. They were getting rid of people. Thank you. I appreciate that, Michelle.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and I am loving this journey, skills journey of knockbacks and wins and um and how transferable skills have brought you to the next place. And I love the fact for our listeners just to point out for them is unflappable wouldn't have been on the job description. It's an unrecognised skill that you have, and it's a wonderful skill, and sometimes it's not even learnable, but yeah, interesting. Shall I move on? So we're going to talk about the Melbourne Storm, the unexpected 15 years. Deco was a major sponsor of Melbourne Storm. You got 50 tickets, started going to games in 1998, and got hooked. Then Storm called for a marketing job, which turned into EA work for 15 years, where you were unflappable. You became the first female life member in 2015. That is a massive chunk of your life. Tell us about that journey.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is, it's quite remarkable. We've just been talking about fashion and my expectations of working in that industry and then ending up in rugby league for 15 years. You're right, it's just crazy when you think of it, think of it. But there was a bit, as we've discussed already, what went on to lead up to that point. But so yeah, I was at Adeco, as I said, in their head office, helping in their marketing department, and we were responsible for distributing the sponsorship tickets. Um, as you said, ADECO was a major sponsor of Melbourne Storm, and so we would have the tickets to give to clients, some of the candidates like the the Labour hire people that were going out, but more so the the other key partners that hired the Adeco staff. And uh there would always be a couple available for my husband. We were together then, but not married obviously, we're only just sort of starting to go out in a couple of years in that time, 1998. Uh, and we started to go along and go to the functions with the Deco and Storm, and we would get to meet the players afterwards, and we would um talk to the staff afterwards, and it was really because we were part of that inner sanctum as one of the sponsors, we really got to know people well, and the players are just remarkable humans, and they still are, but back then, I mean, they were a little bit of nobody as well. Nobody knew who Robbie Ross, Robbie Kearns, and and Matt Geyer, who three of my favourite originals, who they were in Melbourne at that time. And they are just great humans, they just have a chat to you just as though, you know, you know, just as though you were at the pub having a beer, as we often were. But and that was just got us that insight behind the people, and we really got attached to them. And they were just very inclusive and we loved the game as well, but it was that behind-the-scenes stuff, and them treating us like just normal humans, and you know, they weren't on big pedestals looking down at us, and consequently, and after, of course, the 15 years that we've been ended up there, big chunk of our lives. Our oldest son, his name is his given name is Robert, and we've got Roberts all over the family, but we call him Robbie thanks to Robbie Kearns and uh Robbie Ross from the Melbourne Storm. So, you know, big, big uh connection to uh to the storm, big part of our family. We're still a part of it, and yeah, it was amazing to be the first female life member in that time. So there were quite a few transitions that the club went through from the owners of News Limited. News Limited owned the business at one stage, and then it went to private owners. So there was a transition period that I was there, that I was that unflappable part of how I could conduct myself really helped the transition for the business. So I think that was part of the recognition of my part with Melbourne Storm, not to mention just the day-to-day work that I would be doing, but that transition was a pretty important time. But you know, I would just be doing doing my job. Uh, one of my bosses at Storm said to me at one stage, you know, you wouldn't know if your grandmother had died or you know what is going on with you. You're just always so even. Uh, and and I think that's a big part of what I do in my job now, helping people, um, decluttering and organising. We'll talk more about that. But as you say, a huge pivot from fashion to rugby league, but I honestly believe that's where I should have been, you know, with amazing human supporting, um uh as opposed, not that I really know what fashion is like, but I I think it was probably a little bit more cutthroat, perhaps not quite so accepting, whereas I I really did find where I should have been in rugby league, even though it wasn't planned.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Yeah, and even to you your yeah, your unflappability is is showing through in this interview too. Good, thank you. Okay, so the year that you became the first female member of Melbourne Storm, life member of Melbourne Storm, you decided to make a big change yourself. What was the catalyst of moving into your now business space and time? And were you scared?
SPEAKER_00No, again, it was just something that was gonna that transitioned, I suppose. Because I'd been there for 15 years, there just wasn't, and it wasn't quite 15 at the time, it was less than that, but there was not as many roles left that I really wanted to do. I didn't want to go back to work full-time, like the kids were still only, you know, what, 10 and 8 or something, you know. I didn't want full-time work. I wanted something to be able to work around the family and um, you know, still be involved in the storm, of course, which we still are, still going, win, loss, draw. But I knew that some of the skills that I had would be transferable to other things and was sort of looking around. And I think it was just in a Google search or something that I found a group of professional organizers here in Melbourne, and I still meet with them monthly and found out that this is a thing, that this is what you know, we people do go into others' homes and to help them declutter and good get organized. So it was just a transition of all right, we've got say, I think I was doing three days a week at Storm and started the space and time business and just start there. And the more space and time work that I would do, the less storm work that I would do. Um so it was just a matter of you know, a bit of a balancing scale. At one point, I did decide, as I said, that it was had enough of the work that I was doing at Melbourne Storm and resigned. That did take some um courage to be able to cut the apron strings, so to speak, but I knew that the club wasn't going anywhere. We would still be going to games. Our older son, Robbie, was a ball kid for 10 years and has only just finished in the last couple of years. So we were still going and watching him on the sidelines and that sort of thing. So again, it was just a transitional thing. It wasn't really something that just hopped happened overnight. It grew, the business grew, less storm work, resigned from storm, and then the business was able to continue. But yeah, there's always a little bit daunting to go from something that you know. I spoke to a few people, including like a careers coach. His business is called something like at the crossroads, I think, and you know, talked through with him a few things about what might work, what wouldn't. But it wasn't as though I was just going to jump and have absolutely nothing. I still had some other admin work that I picked up with a friend in a bridal business, which was absolutely bizarre. That was admin and accounts for my friend Claudine at her business. But that's something I probably should have done 20 years ago in relation to fashion. That was just crazy. But it was just that at the wrong time for me really to be able to continue and be interested in that. I'd I'd gone move past it. But it was a bit more of a gradual um uh trend, certainly was a big step at the time to this idea to leave leave storm.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think that's very interesting. I think that's a really good point for our listeners, too, that transitions don't have to be abrupt and quick, they can take time, and you can do two jobs at the one time. So if you're transitioning from your corporate life to an art career, you can do that over time. You don't have to do it all in one big shift.
SPEAKER_00So that depends on people's circumstances, doesn't it? I mean, sometimes a jump and a push is what people need. And a few people have said to me, Well, you might have made the business happen quicker if you didn't have the fallback of the admin, but that high risk like that is not my husband and I. We're pretty low risk, let's do it gradually. Uh, and not so much rip the band-aid off, but yeah, a little bit more transition time, yeah, as people say, you know, that side hustle, so to speak. I think it's a pretty good way to do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's awesome. And listeners can pick up on the transfer transferable skills that keep appearing in this episode. Now, what is this question I've got? I'm not naturally organized. What is that? That's on your website and surprising given your career that you have that. Can you tell us about that and what was the journey like teaching yourself?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it is um a a friend of mine sort of pointed that out to me um only a few years ago when we were writing my first website. Actually, she said about that not naturally organized. And I was a little bit um put out or my nose was out of joint when she said that, but she was a hundred percent correct because I've always run at a hundred miles an hour. Um uh as we're saying, doing all these things as a little person, uh, running a household, going to school, long hours of study, and that sort of thing. So I and I had a couple of nicknames growing up. One of them was uh Rough as Guts Mick. A Mick is uh like a Mickey is a baby rabbit. So I was always very small, so I was called Rough as Guts Mick because I was just a whirlwind. I'd do things really hurry in a hurry and move on. So that was my dad in particular that would call me that. People were always telling me to just slow down so I would make less mistakes, but it just carried through that I'd rather just stuff things into the linen press and then nick off and do something else. But then when I come back to find a hand towel, find a bath towel, find whatever, it I would just be so overwhelmed and anxious. I thought, well, this has got to change. I need to take three or four more seconds, not much more than that, to fold the towel properly and put it back where it goes so that the next time that I come back, that's uh much easier to find what we want. So that's how I started to build my skills just by learning that a few more seconds, you know, just getting into the shower, um, you Know folding up your pajamas, ready for then for the next day type thing. All these little things that mount up during the day that I just found that made a lot of difference to tomorrow or later in the day. So these little tiny things that I taught myself along the way which would reduce my anxiety, and I just can't stand looking for something. It just makes me so frustrated. And thankfully, my husband's the same. He he likes to have things in their places as well, so we're pretty similar in that regard. But just not knowing where things were and having to look for something was just I couldn't stand it. Rough as a gutsmick. Had to slow down and learn those skills to organise myself. Yeah, it does sound a bit weird when you first say that I'm not naturally organised, but um I I've learned a lot obviously along the way. What a great story.
SPEAKER_02I might try that. Folding your tails.
SPEAKER_01It's a good idea. Michelle. Okay, so now we're gonna move on to the the fun bit. We're gonna create a scenario here for Julie, and that is of a very messy studio. So we're gonna call the person chaotic creative. Somebody who's so full of ideas it's not funny, but they can't keep up with the mess in their own studio. We're gonna make this person a ceramist because it adds in ceramic dust, which is a pain in the neck. So the scenario is there's clay dust and actual clay everywhere. Tools can't find them when they're needed. Where are my ribbon tools? Like, which is a tool for trimming. 17 pieces of work in various stages, glaze jars with no labels because at the time you forgot to write what was on it. A work table that hasn't seen a surface in months, three unfinished embroidery podecks mixed in with the pottery stuff. Important papers like exhibition applications, the receipts, everything just everywhere. A strong belief that you need to see everything or you feel it doesn't exist, and a fear that if if it's tidied up, it'll stop the creative flow. Now I will say this is not me because I like it to be tidied to create. So alright. You're asking for a friend, you're asking for a friend. I'm asking for a friend. We want to get them more organized, but they're terrified that by being organized they'll lose their creativity. So so where would you start with something like that, Joy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'd always start with a conversation with the person to um find out what what what they're trying to achieve from their space. Like we don't it doesn't have to be like a a doctor's you know surgery or a um actual surgery where they're doing surgery. It doesn't have to be perfect and pristine like that. We can still have a creative looking space, and the same in people's homes as well. Like I'm not saying everyone needs to be a minimalist. I've got stuff, there's more stuff. You're lucky you can't see the rest of behind me because this is my husband's space, so there's a lot more stuff than I would have. But that doesn't mean we can't have stuff, but we want the stuff around us that we are using and we want to be able to find it easily. And sometimes we do want things out so we can just grab them straight away, but not everything will be used all the time every day. Like we don't need our Christmas tree out. I know we're talking about a ceramic studio, but in just in relation to that sort of stuff that we're not using very often, there might be special paints or you know, I don't know a lot about ceramics, but you would, you know, talk to the person about the things that they're using every day and let's absolutely set those things out so that they can just reach for them. Whether it's you know, pots like you would have your cooking utensils in, the same sort of thing for your creative tools that you're using, or little drawers, or uh a pegboard, something like that. Let's talk about those things that we're using each and every day that we do need um our um our hands on all the time. But then what can we put away that is going to have a permanent home in a cupboard behind doors, particularly if there are some things that are affected by the dust in the studio from the ceramics. There might be some things that should absolutely be put away. Like the embroidery does not sound like it would like to hang out with that dust very much. So we could create some spaces to put things away. Might be a, I was thinking of those metal sort of cabinets that you see in workshops all the time or art studios and I think art rooms around the world that you that you could get a better seal on if you did want it to be dust-proof sort of thing. And you could have little tubs and baskets within there for those things that aren't being used very often. But I absolutely agree with you there, Michelle. You need the space to be able to do your thing. You don't want to have to pat up this, this, and this so that you can do the project. You at least need to have a clear space, particularly if it's a sewing studio or it's uh you're doing uh any other paper craft, that sort of thing. You need the space to be able to do it, so you're not wasting time putting things away and and clearing a space for this. And sometimes, you know, the projects that we are working on, these creative projects, they can be ruined if they're not stored properly, or you put something down and it's in a muck of glue and it's stuck to the bench, or I'm just thinking about my kitchen at times. My boys are pretty good, but sometimes I might put my phone down on the bench and there's honey on it because Mr. Muscles has just had a big carb intake before he goes to the gym. So we need to have spaces that are ready for whatever activity you're doing in that time. So I know I just said 13,000 things on where you can start, but I think where you're producing your best work and the work that you're going to be paid for, if this is your income, uh, this is an important part of part of your life, you need to have that space to be able to create and to make money. So I would just start with that flat surface around you and have a look at it, just as though you would be clearing off your desk at home or clearing off the kitchen bench. Which of these things do we need out and easy to access, and which ones can we put away? And it might take a little bit of time to remember where you put those things, but I always say to people, where would you go looking for that thing? So if they're thinking, oh yeah, I would go looking for the scissors in the top drawer, well, let's put the scissors in the top drawer sort of thing. So it's more the client would be telling me where they want to put things. I would certainly suggest things along the way, but it needs to be easy as well, this storage side of it, because if you have to get a stool out every time you get need to get something off the top shelf from somewhere, that's not going to be easy storage. You're not going to be putting things away. But there's, I think those flat surfaces is a good place to start, and they're starting to create some permanent homes for things. There's also some other conversations we have about stopping more things from coming into that special space. Maybe it's not the right place to have the embroidery for a start. So let's stop more things from coming in. And also being committed to having the time to commit to being organized, you know, putting, like we said before, folding the towel, putting it away. Let's make a commitment to that and then being able to move towards the right storage for being able to do what you do best.
SPEAKER_01That's that's a that's a great start. Even just talking about that in that that sensitive way, I I can see you know that people would listen and feel cared for in a nice way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Rosemary, over to you. Great. So sometimes we can't get started if we're in a mess and we think we'll tidy up, and people will say, Oh, you're procrastinating, not doing your work because you are putting it off and you're tidying up. But actually the cutlery draw philosophy that you talk about, it does clear your head that you can then get started. So can you tell tell us about that simple sort of philosophy and how it works for you with working with people?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that's just talking about just choosing one space. Like I said, I just chose almost the whole studio then. It was more I was talking then exactly about you know what we're aiming for. And then exactly what you're saying, we would come back to one little spot and we would start the work. So the cutlery drawer or the you know, your utensils drawer that you're going to be using for your artwork, that would be an awesome place to start. Again, we would do some sorting, we would put the like items together. If we're looking at a cutlery drawer, of course, or a utensils drawer, put all the spatulas together, all the wooden spoons together. I did find 16 wooden spoons with a client one day because they were all over the kitchen and we brought them all back to one spot. But putting all those tools together that work together and this sorting step can really help you see what you've got and then be able to make decisions from there. Because, like I said, Rosemarine, we might want to sit down and do the work, but we can't do it really until we've got at least a little bit of space. So sorting in this way, the top drawer or just a little section of the space that you're going to be working on, and sorting can be a good way for your brain to just start to process, start to think about what am I going to be using for this project? What am I going to be using over this day, perhaps? And as you're doing that sorting, it really does help solidify to see what you've got and then to be able to make some decisions there as to what to keep and what to let go. So sorting like items can be a really great way to start. This is sort of on that, you know, decluttering journey. Or you might be looking at all your adhesives, you know, all your glues together, all your tape together. If it's a sewing room, it might be, of course, or put all your threads together, all your buttons together, all your zips together, your fabric together, your patterns, your scissors, your tape measures. Because all these things are important for us in the creative work that we're doing. I don't do as much sewing as I used to. I love to make Kylie Mano costumes when my sister and I go to the concerts. We always dress up, so I don't do as much sewing as I used to, but I still want to know where my scissors are. I still want to know where the different threads are, the zips and things like that. They still need to know where these things are. So just starting with the top drawer of your desk or one shelf in the studio that might have a lot of important things in there. I'm just starting with that is a is is a really good kick start. And you might just do a little bit of that. Put the timer on 10 minutes. I mentioned about stopping more stuff from coming into the space. I think if you've still got more and more coming, if you're still doing online buying and all these bargains and do the clay was an amazing price. I have to, I'm gonna buy 10 kilos of it, or you know, if you've still got more coming in, it's really difficult to make any progress going forwards. But if we're stopping stuff from coming in, then we've got a really good opportunity to tackle that backlog and make some progress with our clutter and setting up things so we can be creative in our spaces.
SPEAKER_02And I love those two messages for our listeners is to do is do something that's achievable. So the cutlery draw or the arts, you know, a little wooden box that's achievable, and you can start and put the timer on. I'm just gonna do 10 minutes, and the other part is stopping stuff coming in. It's so easy to get stuff coming in these days, isn't it? Michelle.
SPEAKER_01Well, I have the next question, but before I go to the next question, I want to talk to you about your Kylie Mino costumes, please. I know it's it's not in our notes, but I mean, you told us in a in your pre-interview. Please tell us about your hot Kylie Mino. And and can we have some photos of you in your Kylie Kamot?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm happy to share them. Absolutely. I'll share them with you. So it started because I yeah, the first Kylie costume uh concert I went to would have been 1988, I think, in Adelaide at Memorial Drive. So been a fan since she was on Neighbours, and apart from fashion, I was gonna be a mechanic because of Kylie on Neighbours. So I did automotive studies, I did metal work at school, I did all the stuff, I was talking to the army about being a diesel mechanic in the army, so it was either that or fashion growing up. So there's a little bit of a link there to Kylie and the amazing inspiration that she has had over my life as well as Melbourne Storm. But the going uh along to those concerts, I don't even really remember why it would have stuck would have happened, but just for the fact that I can sew, I suppose. It was like, well, if you're gonna go to a Kylie show, it is a show. People do dress up, so let's be some of them. So we've had the red rah-rah skirt with the big perm that she did in that the locomotion in 1988. We've done um an Aphrodite costume that she had, like a toga type thing with fliff um feather ear earpieces. Uh, and the one we just wore 12 months ago was inspired by uh concert she did 20 years ago, and it was very easy cargo pants and a and a funky hot pink top. But I'd absolutely love to share the photos with you. But it's just something fun. The two of us go um dress up that together, my sister and I, um, and it's just fun. People come and have photos taken with us, and oh, look at that. Oh, yeah, I remember that costume or whatever. And I did really consider whether we would do it um 12 months ago when Kylie toured. So I'm turning 52 in a couple of weeks. So I was thinking, does a 51-year-old woman really need to dress up and blah blah blah? But decided yes, we would. And I was so glad that we that we did. We had an absolute hoot, and uh it was all part of the fun. So uh yeah, as you say, a little bit of a digression, but that is something that my sister and I still love to do. My sister still lives in Kenniva near near my mum. So it's nice to get together, sit on the sewing machine, which again I don't do as often as I need to make some more time to do it. But uh yeah, that's a funny little side story about um still using those skills that I grew up with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's beautiful. I love it, I love it. So creatives, whoever, you know, oh the feeling that they're they're they're such they're they're in such a mess that they feel like they're stuck in that mess and they're embarrassed about the mess and they're ashamed about the mess. You know, when you're first talking to those people, does that come like, you know, how do you deal with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it is something that everybody experiences that we talk to. Uh and you know, uh it's very easy for for me to say I've seen it all, which I have. It's 11 years of business I've seen from the extreme um minimalist, where I've done three hours in uh an apartment uh and basically went through every cupboard and everything in her whole house, you know, five t-shirts, five pairs of pants, five pairs of shoes, very minimalists, you know, and she thought she still had too much stuff, so you know, that's good on her. That's what we were working. Still got rid of two bags of stuff to the op shop and two bags of rubbish all the way through to hoarding. We don't particularly, and that's not our specialty, working with people with hoarding disorder, but we still do have people with those tendencies and you know are on the way to being in a lot of trouble in that regard. But this stuff accumulates for a reason. Like people, the people that I work with, it's not as though they're sitting on their bottoms all day and watching Netflix. It's not how this stuff happens. Like somebody's become unwell, somebody's died, they had a stroke themselves, or they've got five kids. Actually, I've worked with a lady with eight kids at home, and she was an absolute pocket rocket. That was the most amazing uh houses and well-orged machines I've ever been in my life. It was I was learning things from her. But otherwise, um five kids, the youngest one with an intellectual and physical disability, like it takes a lot of effort to run a household, hours and hours of time to cook for everyone, clean for everyone, do the shopping, the I was gonna say ironing, but I hope nobody does any ironing anymore. You know, it takes a lot of effort, and then put all this stuff on top of it, all these other challenges that we are dealing with, it is no wonder that stuff just accumulates. Like the kids grow and haven't got time to get rid of the past stuff that they've grown out of. We'll just get the next size in and the next size in, the next size in, and then can't fit anything in their cupboard. But so in I do try and explain that to people. I can see that it's not for them being lazy, although I'm sure a lot of them do get told that when they're growing up, that you're lazy, you're disorganized, you're useless, you know, all these things that people do tell them. So there is a lot of shame and guilt that they are carrying around from their past lives, or even somebody in their home might be telling them. But it's rarely is that the fact. There's a lot more going on. So I we just explained to them that it doesn't really matter how they found their way in this position. We're gonna help them move forwards. We'll certainly help them address a little bit of what's gone on to lead up to this point, like we're saying, stop more stuff from coming in the front door in the first place and that sort of thing, but just to be able to let them know we're there to help them and to support them. We're not there to judge, we're not to say, oh, you should have done this 12 months ago, because none of that is very helpful. We need them to be able to come to a calm and uh a position to be able to make these decisions for themselves. Because if you're under stress and and duress, you know, you can't even decide which two pairs of shoes you want to hang on to because the brain is just so scattered. So we need to be in a calmer space to be able to even make a start. So you're right, that would, should, you know, um uh those feelings that people bring with them. Now our b business space and time is about helping people make conscious choices with how they use their space and their time, not just because grandma told you how to do it that way or mum said to do it that way, because it might not be relevant to where you are right now with you and your family. So let's have a look at where you're at and then you know whether it's your studio or what part of the home that we're working in, let's go from that even sort of playing field and be able to move forward from there. That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_01That's wonderful. By the way, um I grew up ironing sheets.
SPEAKER_00Yes, details. Yeah, I'm great, I'm a good iron. Glad I learned. I don't do iron.
SPEAKER_01I don't do ironing at all. So Rosemary, over to you. What are we up to? The closing question maintaining it, maintaining the tidiness once you've got it.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so you give people skills to maintain organization and build it into their routines after you've done the small training. But creatives are notoriously bad at routines. We work in birth, we hyper focus on focus, forget to eat. Michelle, who wrote this question? That I never forget to eat. We're driven by inspiration, not schedules. How would you help someone like that maintain systems? They're not systems-oriented people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it comes back to the fact that you can still teach yourself those things, and I explained to you how I've learnt to do that over the time because I just can't stand the mess. Um, so I really have taught myself to do that. But it depends how we look at routine as well. Might not be uh creators might be in a different sort of routine to a nine to five sort of person where your lunch break is at this time and you have your tea break at that time. That's probably a different routine to what the creatives are doing. But there still are the starts of the hyper-focus time, there's still like the middle of the hyper-focus time, there's still the tidy up afterwards. We can still come across some different points during that time, then we can do a little bit of a reset. So we might go, okay, we've been doing this for two hours. Um, you know, let's do a quick tidy up, let's have a cup of tea. And you could have literally put a timer on to help you do this as well. Um I appreciate that you might feel like you don't want to get out of the flow and lose where you're at, but generally we gain a lot of just be able to get some more energy uh to be able to kick start ourselves if we take more regular breaks. Uh, it doesn't have to be using the Pomodoro technique with the 25 minutes, like that might be a little bit short when you're doing creative things, but there's still opportunities for these check ins along the way. Um, you know, I I I learnt the idea of the seven o'clock bus from a sleep, a baby sleep specialist, Tizzy Hall. She says that, you know, the baby. Should be in bed by seven o'clock every night because the you know the 7 p.m. bus won't wait, and then that's the same sort of thing for packing up in the afternoon. You could still have a regular pack up time so that you can get home and do the dinner and get to bed in a good time so you can get back to the studio the next day and do it all along. You can put some lines in the sand, you know, wherever wherever you decide those lines are, some signposts along the way. The routine might look quite different depending on who you are and and what you're working on, but just those little check-in times along the way. Okay, halfway through the session, we're gonna wipe down our benches again. We're gonna do a bit of a reset so that you can continue on. So we can still put those little snippets of maintenance along the way. Uh, and I taught even more recently, like uh 12, 13 years ago, we renovated our house. We did it as owner builders, we'd have our own tools and tool belt and stuff, and I learned pretty quickly to put that stuff down at the same place before I would go inside because I'd come out and go, Oh, where did I put those gloves? Where did I put that hammer? So just having it always put it down at the same spot. Yes. I just have those, yeah. And the same with any of those important tools that you have around the studio. It's hiding under a magazine somewhere or whatever. You have a little thing that you just stick it in. The important tools go in every time. Again, it might not be natural like it wasn't for me, but it really does is something that you can absolutely learn and something that you um will benefit from. Um, those little check-ins and those little cleaning up and packing up along the way, that's little maintenance things that we can do as we're in our um really creative times. Awesome.
SPEAKER_02And you're right, there's a lot of research that structure helps creativity to be more productive. Um yeah, so love that.
SPEAKER_01That's great. Michelle. I love that too, by the way. I and I do do that. I'll actually be using a tool all day and I and I'll walk away and make have a break, have a cup of tea, and I'll go back and where did I put it? Where did I put where the hell did I put it? So yes, that's my learning key for the day is is a second tray, a tray on the table.
SPEAKER_02What are we going to call what are we going to call this podcast? I was wondering about transferable skills.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so too, because you know, your journey has your journey has inspired me, Julie. Because y you know, even talking to you today, that calmness has come through. I can imagine if I was in a huge, huge mess, somebody like you coming into my home and helping me sort out, I wouldn't feel terrified. I would feel comfortable with that. Do you go back to people? Do you give them a couple of weeks and then go back and see if they've picked up those little habits and routines?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely depends on who they are and what their circumstances are. Some couple of clients this year, I've seen them once a week for the last year and a half. So, you know, big household, lots of stuff. It takes a while to process it. But then, you know, they've got so much going on that it is hard for them to be able to even implement the skills that they're learning. But as as with anything, weight loss, uh, fitness training, anything that you're trying to change, any of those habits, it's all about practice and being committed to it. Like I said, that we want to make some changes. We can't just keep doing the same things over and over. We need to be able to make some tweaks along the way. They don't always have to be huge to be able to um make the changes and see how things come out. But yeah, absolutely checking in with them. We've got a lot of resources on our website, recordings of um uh recordings of different workshops that we do. We do live workshops, there's blogs, there's yeah, all sorts of tools as well to hit help them stay in contact and in the in the loop and uh keep those skills improving. And um, after we finish this session today, I've got a two-hour slot. It's just like a co-working slot. My clients are coming along, they're gonna be doing some decluttering, they've got bits and pieces to do, but it's really an accountability session for two hours online. Come and bring your work. I'm gonna be going through my inbox because I haven't had a chance to do it for the last couple of days. So have a specific task in mind to be able to help with that maintenance side of whatever we're doing, um, and then be able to um the clients with the maintenance and learning to be able to keep those skills.
SPEAKER_01Yep. So for all of you listening, that website is spaceandtime.com.au. I've got it opened on my other screen, and I I love the readability of your website too. It's very easy. And easy to read. So awesome to hear. One last question, and that's because we're missing question 10, because I think we've really done that. You had a choice here between a legacy question and a superpower question. Which one did you choose?
SPEAKER_00They might be the same. I think the answer would be the same for both of them. I love so I'm gonna answer it with a combination of both.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's fine.
SPEAKER_00Because as you said, I think my superpower is um uh that unflappability and that ability to know that we can do this. It doesn't matter what what sort of spot we're in, if the client is willing to be able to do the work, make some changes, that we can absolutely do this task at hand. So I think for that being for me to be able to work in, walk into a space and and just be able to go, yeah, we can do this. I think, as you suggested before, Michelle, that that is a superpower of mind to be unflappable because you know life is too short. To be worrying about things, to be overthinking things too much, let's just give this a crack. Let's whatever it might be, if we're changing careers, if we're changing how we want to have our spaces, if we're changing how we want to use our time, let's just give it a crack. So I think my superpower is that ability just to be able to know that it's gonna work out fine. And along with that, a legacy as far as what I want, you know, space and time and me to be able to leave behind is the support for people for them to be able to do it themselves, like to be able to learn some of these skills. And, you know, it's really not even about the stuff. It's more about, well, what are you trying to do? I see so many people juggling their stuff for hours and hours a day. And that's not what, I mean, that is my job. Absolutely, that's my job, but that shouldn't be other people's jobs if they are not professional organizers. They um, I would love for them to be able to let go of the stuff that isn't of help any help to them anymore, to clear the spaces to be able to do the stuff that's gonna move them towards their goal. If it's being more creative, it's if it's having more fun, if it's doing more needlework or quilting or making more money. That's what it's all about. It's about clearing up our space and our time to be able to do the stuff, not muck around with the stuff and find pretty containers for the stuff. It's so that we can walk out our front door without that weight of the stuff in our homes. Let's clear it out the road so that we've got more space and time to be able to do those important things that are on your list, hanging out with the family, whatever it might be. So I think those two questions really meld together as far as what I think my superpower is and how I think it can empower others to be able to get on and and be their best selves and do their best lives. Julie that's great. I love the way you've got to talk.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, Rosemary.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, just I love the way you've explained that and it's very freeing and it's almost a philosophy of how to live, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah, because life is just too short to be uh mucking around with pretty containers in a pantry. Like I said, unless it's your job, unless you want to invite people around to look at your pantry, which one of our clients did want to do, and that was the brief, so that's what we did for her. But really, you just need to know where your veggie stock is, not that it looks amazing for Instagram.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Julie, you've been a pleasure to have, and it's been it's been fun. And as I said, your own journey has been, I think your own journey has given you the strength that that comes, shines through in you. And um actually, I would love the name of the transition, the coach you spoke to. What was it again? The crossroads.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would actually it's he's called the reason and the road, Andrew. I'm not 100% sure if he's still around it, because it was nearly 10 years ago that I left Storm, but the reason the road, I'm sure it'll be around. Uh yeah, as I said, Gears coach, yeah, it really was a great bloke to just talk to about you know what what the paths are and what the options are, you know, if I stayed at Storm or if I if I left. Um I'm not as I said, I'm not sure if he's still around, but he someone like that, I'm sure if even if Andrew's not there anymore, people would be able to find uh someone like that to talk to. Yeah, good. He was a really lovely, lovely guy. He was a friend of one of the girls at Storm. And just, you know, talk to anybody. I mean, talk I reckon talk to an expert might cost you a bit of money, but uh, you know, talking to an expert like that or coming and working with experts like myself, the investment is worth it because it can really help you move towards your your goals as um rather than just trying to fumble around in the dark and do it yourself.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you, Julie. This has been a fun. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you're welcome. Thank you both, and uh really appreciate the opportunity and keep up the great work. Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Well, Rosemary, that was great.
SPEAKER_02I really enjoyed talking to Julie. What was your learning from that? It was so good. I really liked her kindness to clients and not trying to shame them for being in a mess and working with them at their own pace. So taking them along the journey, just start with something small in the kitchen drawer, etc. And also that once they were tidy, it's a good message for everyone. Once you're tidy, you don't have to worry, you can actually then live, you can paint or entertain or what so I thought they were great messages.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they they were lovely. She inspired me in a way, and she inspired me by her um tenacity to come to Melbourne all by herself when she was a young girl, and to really make a path for herself, both at a deco and then working as the EA with Storm. Wonderful woman, really interesting woman, and I like the bit that it's basically, you know, don't live your life with stuff. If you get rid of the stuff, then you can live your life.
SPEAKER_02Who do I need and live your life? Yeah. Let's start with your inspirations because I'm going to go and get Greta to show you. Okay, well, my key inspirations, I've got two.
SPEAKER_01First of all, uh my the next guest, which we interviewed earlier this week, is an inspiration. I'm not gonna go into it, but I will say it is Jennifer Jennifer Kroom, who is the inaugural Australian Portrait Artist of the Year. She is an amazing woman. I could carry on about how great she is, but I'm gonna wait till the interview. So that's in two weeks' time. And my second inspiration is I'm opening up a gallery studio in my space, and I'm working on making that space really nice for people on a Saturday morning from 9 until 2 when the lifts are open in the building.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's so exciting, I can't wait for that. So, what days Saturdays?
SPEAKER_01Saturday mornings, yes. And I might if it works well, I'll do Friday afternoons as well. But I always take fleur in on a Friday, so people who come on Friday have to be okay with dogs.
SPEAKER_02So I have an inspiration which is this was my book where she's reading about the Greek myth. The um the man called narcissist who loved himself so much he um couldn't stop looking at himself, he didn't do anything else, and when the kids aren't watching, we can say, well, he actually died and a daffodil grew in its place. But in my book, I don't go into that detail. But he's adorable. You love her.
SPEAKER_01What a likeness. And did you say that the lady who made her for you is also making fish hair clips?
SPEAKER_02Hang on, yes, yes, she she made these little fish hair clips for people to wear. Seriously, I want a fish haircut, I want the blue fish haircut. I can take her butterfly off and put a fish hair clip on. I will I will actually pay for the blue hair clip and I will wear it to it in the pocket. Yes, and um her name is Tanya from Little Shop of Crochet, and she's at the market once a month. It's beautiful, beautiful. I'm so happy to have Greta, and um, she's gonna help me with my next story, which is about we're gonna highlight homelessness. Have we Greta? That will be fun. I'm really nice. I'm talking to a dog. I talk to I talk to Flo all the time.
SPEAKER_01Oh I talk to Flo all the time. Nah. She never answers. Great. We thank you. And goodbye, everyone. We'll see you soon. Thank you. Alright. Thank you so much for listening to Shift Stirrers Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit that follow button so you can get notified whenever we we release new content. We'd love to hear feel from you and feel free to reach out to us at theshift stirrers at gmail.com. Or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. We love questions. You can also connect to us on Instagram at ShiftStirrers. If you found value in today's conversation, we'd be incredible incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or a rating on your podcast platform. It really helps others to discover the show. And if you know someone who will benefit from this episode, please share with them. Until next time, keep stirring the shift. Just a quick disclaimer Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of these discussions today. We present this podcast in the interest of getting you curious to make changes. Thank you.