Ep 10: This Is What It Actually Takes To Go All In || Olly Williams

Everyone romanticises walking away from the safe path.

Olly actually did it. director title, nice car, the income he chased since his twenties. Then he hit rock bottom, got sober, and gave it all up to bootstrap a health and wellness brand he knew nothing about.

In this episode Olly (founder of Sunday Salt) and I talk about what success really means once money stops being the answer, the brutal reality of building sunday salt from ground zero, burning through 90k pre-revenue, and how documenting the messy founder journey openly pulled in a whole network of people providing valuable advice. 

This one is for anyone standing at the edge of a big decision, wondering if they have the courage to start over.

WHAT WE COVER:

• Redefining success after you get everything you thought you wanted.
• Hitting rock bottom and rebuilding piece by piece. 
• Why the skill curve is always steeper than you think, and so is your ability to learn. 
• Managing future stress by living the worst case once, then moving on.
• Building brand and community before you even have a product.
• Documenting the journey as an underrated arbitrage.
• How complementary co-founders cover each other's blind spots.
• Balance as a discipline, not a default.

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 — Cold open: the night that changed everything

01:35 — Who is Olly: from Bathurst basketball obsession to real estate director to founder

04:19 — Redefining success: from money and status to fulfillment and freedom

06:26 — Rock bottom: waking up with no memory and getting sober

16:05 — The brutal first 30 days: hating his own content and starting from zero

23:15 — Why gels and electrolytes: the ingredient gap nobody else was solving

30:10 — The real cost of building a product: a $250K packaging call and a hidden expense

34:02 — Going public with the numbers: the $6300k bill that brought in free mentors

39:43 — Angel investors vs. bootstrapping: what Olly actually wants in a partner

52:47 — What's next: building community before the product even exists

CONNECT WITH OLLY WILLIAMS

INSTAGRAM — https://www.instagram.com/ollywynnwilliams/

LINKEDIN — https://www.linkedin.com/in/oliver-williams-688432241/ 

TIKTOK — https://www.tiktok.com/@oliverwilliams952 

INFORMATION ON SUNDAY SALT

WEBSITE — https://www.sundaysalt.com.au/?srsltid=AfmBOornzD9gpp3mvqd-JdVIphvruZtA7qxBEj_JopBQOVNsCfd0QMuM 

INSTAGRAM — https://www.instagram.com/sundaysaltau/ 

LINKEDIN — https://www.linkedin.com/company/sunday-salt/posts/?feedView=all 

TIKTOK — https://www.tiktok.com/@sundaysaltau 

CONNECT WITH MAHDIEH

INSTAGRAM — https://www.instagram.com/mahdieh.rassafiani/

FOLLOW YOUR NEXT STEP PODCAST

INSTAGRAM — https://www.instagram.com/yournextstep.pod/

TIKTOK — https://www.tiktok.com/@yournextstep.pod

YOUTUBE — https://www.youtube.com/@YourNextStepPodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

I woke up on my floor, my head against the door, like no car keys, lost my phone, and like I had no idea where I was.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

When did you think that you're stopping to chase that?

SPEAKER_03 0:11

I had the position that I wanted for a really long time. It doesn't really feed anything deeper. There's not really any fulfillment in that. Pre-revenue, and you're just continuously burning cash. People who had seen how much time, effort, and energy I'd put into the into the real estate industry were kind of like really just on the cusp of being doing really well.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

It takes a lot of courage to change though.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

You are essentially going back to starting it at zero. Seven versions where I was like, I just don't know if this is possible. Like one who I'd never met before, and he's like, bro, call me. Had a big chat with him, he really helped me, gave me all this advice just for free. Your capabilities over a long time horizon are also far more than what you think.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

I can see like the energy that's going behind it.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

I would much rather have a product that is absolutely beloved by a smaller amount of people than a product that's generally accepted by a really, really large group.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Before we start this episode, I have a huge favor to ask. If you've been enjoying the conversations with our incredible guests where we talk about mindset resilience and why they're doing the things they're doing, I'd love you to subscribe to your next step with Maddie Rastafiani on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. It's the best way to grow the show and bring on your favorite guests, but also making sure it's reaching the people that need to hear it the most. All right, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Here we are.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Here we are.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

But to start off things, Ollie, um, for those that don't know you, how would you who's Ollie?

SPEAKER_03 1:44

For sure. Well, I am a country boy originally. Uh I came from uh a small town called Bathurst in the Central West. I wasn't very good at school. Uh, I naturally kind of tended towards sport. And as I I was a fat kid growing up, and then I got really into basketball, became completely obsessed with it, and got some good results and some success, and kind of learned at an early age that with my kind of single-handed obsession towards something and grinding towards something, I could achieve good results. And I kind of took that learning and then applied it to anything that I would become interested in. A very single-minded focus. When I become focused on something, it is almost exclusively that one thing that I can focus on. I can't hold multiple things easily. So that then translated to I finished school, wasn't really my thing, kind of floated around for a while and thought I wanted to go into finance, started at uni, really was not passionate about it. I just knew I wanted to make a lot of money and really wasn't enjoying it. Found real estate, it kind of saw real estate as a way where look, I can make uncapped income potential. And it's a thing that I don't necessarily need any kind of qualification. So I dropped out uh at the end of university, moved from Newcastle to Sydney, took the first job I could get in Double Bay, and then uh kind of relentlessly hounded this one agent that I really wanted to work for until he gave me the opportunity to work for him. Um, then I was his kind of right-hand guy, progressed to running his team, ended up a few years down the line having my own office and learned a huge amount in the real estate industry. Like it was a really amazing experience of like I really grew up in that industry. And it kind of got to the point where it wasn't what I wanted to be doing anymore. And I I wanted to, I've always wanted to have my own business, and that's something that's always been really, really interesting to me. And uh I kind of got to the point where I wanted to be in the health and wellness space. And if it wasn't gonna be now that I did something that built a business in an industry that I really believe in, then when was I gonna do it? And uh so I took the plunge about a year or so, or it's about actually it's about like 15 months ago now, um, to build the business that I am about to launch, which is super, super exciting.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Which is Sunday salt. Sunday salt. I love that. Oh, there's so many questions I have just from that summary. But I want to start off with like, what did success look like to you when you first started, when you were growing up?

SPEAKER_03 4:24

For sure. Well, success when I was growing up was all I cared about was sport through my kind of teen years, it was basketball, and it was just beating the other team relentlessly. Then it kind of progressed onto a career and and and then it was just purely monetary. Like I need to make a certain amount of money by a certain age to have a certain amount of things, then that's successful. And that really was my idea of success all the way up until really like my mid to late 20s when it started becoming a little bit more like, what is uh what is what is that what does that money actually get you? Like once you've had a nice car and and those kind of things, it's like, okay, that's cool, but it doesn't really feed anything deeper. There's not really any fulfillment in that. And then it became about well, success is really having the freedom to do what I want, when I want, and have the resources to throw into whatever I want to build something. Um, and then the when my definition of success changed, my focus changed. And it was like I want to be able to work from anywhere in the world. I want to have the resources to build something that I actually believe in. I want to do something that's fulfilling, not just because it's successful in business, because that is a huge driver for me, but also something that's actually good and that I I actually want to bring into the world, and that is really kind of what my idea of success morphed into, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

That's a really interesting perspective to have because I feel like a lot of people go down the money route of like I definitely did for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it takes a lot of self-reflection to be like, no, I'm gonna change the direction. What was the moment for you that you know you're like, I'm actually going to this is like money's not everything. Yes, money is a nice thing to have to make freedom, but like when did you think that you're stopping to chase that?

SPEAKER_03 6:25

I think it was it was it was realistically, it was probably when I hit rock bottom. When I was I was a director and I had a nice car, I had the job and like the position that I wanted for a really long time, but I was also pretty much a full-blown alcoholic. I was in the worst shape of my life, or the worst shape of my adult life. I was it was just overwhelmingly unfulfilled, and I was just cramming my career success on top of it to kind of try and quiet the overwhelming feeling of lack of fulfillment in my life. And it was it was basically coming to the realization of that when uh it was a funny story, actually. It's pretty bit out there, but I um it was after a night out and I woke up on my floor, my head against the door, like no car keys, uh, lost my phone, and like I had no idea where I was. I had blood on my shirt, still no idea what happened to me to this day. But then it and then I had to go to the hospital the next day to make sure I wasn't concussed, like it was just a mess. And then I had to like look at myself, like, what are you doing? Like, this is not what we had as the idea of what you would be doing when you're achieving what you want to achieve in life. Um, and then like not long after that, I got completely sober, still completely sober now for like over, well over a it's coming up to probably a year and a half, and I've had no plans to drink again. And that's a big thing for me, is not to say that you can't be successful and and and you know balance drinking and that, but I personally couldn't. And once I I figured that out and figured out that look, you can be making a really good income in the position you thought would be fulfilling and still be just completely empty underneath because all this other shit is like just going completely sideways, which it was for me. And it was kind of once I started cleaning that up and building my life back to what I wanted piece by piece that I started actually kind of finding some more fulfillment. Um, but but it was it was really that moment that was like a it was that was rock bottom, and then since then things have slowly gotten better over time, and now it's like overwhelmingly happy compared to where I was back then.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

It takes a lot of courage to change though, definitely, yeah. It's like a lot of people three and a half years to get to that director level. Some people it takes them decades, or even they may never reach that, yeah. Right. But what kind of courage is it do you think you have that you were able to be like, no, this is not for me?

SPEAKER_03 9:08

I think when it was when I was looking at like the the potential roads forward, and it was like, okay, say I continue down this path and I just degrade everything except for my career, it will just continue to go down, and even if my results are somehow able to, you know, continue to go up, even if I'm living a an overall terrible lifestyle, just say, and say I get all the money and success that you know I think will this path will get me. Well, what where will I be in in you know a few years? And it was really just not a life that I was interested in in living when I was honest with myself about that. And then so it's for me, I I I have no for some people it is I I know it's very hard for them to take action on something. For me, it's the opposite. If I make a decision, I'm ready to instantly take action on that decision, almost at my detriment where I can be a little too hasty to take huge amounts of risk. I find that like my partner Britt, for example, she is very risk averse. I am so easily prone to taking risk, especially if there's a big upside, it's no issue for me. Um, so once I kind of made once once I was honest with myself and that the two different progressions were very clear to me. And and not to say that it's all glamour doing a startup that's bootstrapped, like my lifestyle previous when I had a really nice car, I was going out to eat all the time, like I had you know really good income compared to now, where I've got my Corolla and you know, I'm not spending near the amount of money I was before, is very, very different lifestyle. It's definitely not for everyone. I'm wildly more happy doing what I'm doing now, but it was it was a bit of a like eating humble pie and knowing that I was gonna have to massively wind back how I was living and kind of going back to, you know, being someone who's you know, once you've kind of gotten to that level in the industry, I was still like a not a not at all at the level of the big guys, but uh you you'd at least I'd built a skill in something where I was at least fairly competent. Whereas going and then going to a brand new industry, the health and wellness industry, in an e-com business where I'm essentially at ground zero and I don't know anything, that was quite hard. And knowing that you're kind of completely incompetent at everything in the beginning, that was definitely hard where I knew sales and I knew it very, very well. And there's definitely some good learnings from that, but you are essentially going back to starting at zero. Um, and it that that's also there's something that's fun about that. Like I really like the skill acquisition of learning new things, but it was that was that was hard knowing that my lifestyle and my kind of ego is going to take a really big hit, and also going and and I didn't realize actually at the start just how little I would know about what I was doing. Like I knew obviously you don't know, you don't know what you don't know. Yeah, but now even having done it for the short period of time that I've done it, it's only like now I'm realizing just how little I actually know about it. But that's also there is there is a joy in that in in learning as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Do you think Ollie, a year and a bit ago that made that decision knows the things it knows now? Do you think you would have thought more about it or you would still still have done it?

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Nah, I would have still done it in an instant. The only thing I the those the it was interesting, I made a video about this the other day. Like there's only a few things that I would have done differently. Um, one is I would have started making like founder-led content a lot earlier and just tried to get more comfortable with that a lot sooner than what I did. But aside from that, like really like I would have planned for a bigger budget for product development and like little things like that that everybody kind of would have done in hindsight. But realistically, no. Like once I made the decision to do what I wanted to do, um I definitely didn't procrastinate. Like I pushed everything very to be done as fast as humanly possible. Um, like I don't with the resources that I had, I don't think you could have pushed it to be done faster. Not that it didn't blow out, um, because it certainly did. But I think that there isn't a whole lot past that turning point that I would have done different now.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Did anyone think that you were like crazy making this decision?

SPEAKER_03 13:24

So many people, yeah. I was very fortunate to be to be to be fair. My family and and my partner were were incredibly supportive. And like everybody who was very close to me and and who really knew me um could see underneath it all how uh over time, as my uh as I'd gotten kind of further into the industry and I had become more successful, but my who I was was really starting to degrade. Um, and that's not to put that on the industry, that was just me personally. Um they were very happy for me. They were very happy that I was kind of going on this new venture and had a lot of belief in me. Um, but a lot of people who, especially people who had seen how much time, effort, and energy I'd put into the into the real estate industry were kind of like, what the fuck are you doing? Like you're just about to make, like you're really just on the cusp of being doing really well and you're giving up now. Because it did look like I was giving up to them. They and I could see where they were coming from. Like it's it's you know, a lot of guys in the real estate industry, like it has got very, very high churn. Um, and I could see where they were coming from thinking that I was I was giving up, but a lot of a lot of um a lot of people now who thought that I was just kind of just kind of giving up have now kind of seen what I wanted to build and and have kind of seen the vision a bit more. But uh yeah, a lot, a lot did, especially in the industry, thought I was I was kind of crazy. Um but luckily my family and and and partner were super supportive.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

So what's the wildest like comment that you heard from someone that like you were like, you know, hang on, I I'm actually double thinking this, like, or were you so adamant that you were like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

There was definitely some guys who who kind of who I'd really looked up to um who a little while after had reached out and said, look, if you'd want to get back in the industry, you know, I'd love to chat. Um and you know, guys I really looked up to, and I thought they didn't even know who I was. Uh and and that was that was really nice actually. And you know, it's not not it didn't make me reconsider, but it was it was nice to kind of get that recognition, I guess. Um but not nothing really like overall I've been pretty fortunate, and especially as I've shown more of the process and how invested I am and how much I care and how excited I am, more and more people are getting more excited for us and and for the brand to launch and can kind of see what I wanted to build. Um so that's been good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

And how did the like first 30 days of like quitting your job look like? Because I think it's a massive lifestyle shift in terms of you know, you're in meetings and then you have all this time to yourself.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Yeah. Um, I well, I think like it's it's a while, it's it's a while ago now, but I went, I I resigned, and then I left like we left on very good terms, which was really good. And you know, so I kind of like sent all like my database back to the business and and you know, kind of tied up all those ends. And then I actually went uh flew to America for two weeks, um, and then came back and was into a personal training. So then I've so I've been doing personal training part-time while I've been building the business. Started doing personal training and then um and then at that stage I was just beating my head against the wall trying to make content that I didn't hate. Because everything I made, I I just hated it because it was terrible. It was objectively terrible content, and I knew it was terrible, and I just knew I had to just grind out reps of making stuff that was really shitty, but it just it just was what it was, and I just had to get through that. And now not to say that it's amazing content, but at least I don't hate it. And I enjoy the process of making it because I'm actually proud of at least half of the stuff that I put out. Um, so that was that was a rude awakening, how hard that would be, and how it wasn't that that making content was unenjoyable, it was unenjoyable being so lacking in the skill of something I wanted to be good at, and then and then that was everything. Like making a website, no idea what I was doing, making emails, no idea what I was doing, uh, setting up any kind of database, it's doing working with a new CRM, no idea on any of this stuff, like ads, still no idea. Like there's so many different avenues. Product development, no idea. Like, there's so many things that I had to learn, and I'm still like only at the beginning stages of learning that I then was starting to realize like, oh, there's a there's a lot here that I don't know. Um, but it was also very exciting. It was very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah, it's the founder, founder journey. Oh, but has it like cost you walking away from all of this? Like, what's the most thing that's cost you? Has it cost you anything in terms of mentally more on the negative side?

SPEAKER_03 18:24

I would say it's just like I mean, when you're pre-revenue and you're just continuously burning cash and going into the red, there's like the impending potential doom of like going bankrupt if everything just flops, but then it's like okay, I'm moving with my parents, or like, you know, what's the worst case? I go bankrupt, like you know what so be it. Um, it's just part of the risk. So there's that stress, but I do think that if you are able to manage that stress, like if you look at some of the most successful founders of all time, they've been under immense scrutiny and stress for years and years, and they're able to manage it very, very well and keep their energy in line. And there's definitely been times where I've been extremely stressed about the financials and just about like if if the launch just keeps getting being pushed off and pushed off, and the expenses keep going up and up, and like there's just so many unforeseen expenses. Like, you have to do for the product development, you have to do what's called a commercial trial. I had no idea that that was that wasn't it wasn't that wasn't told to me at the first stage, and that was essentially the cost of the entire product development again. So it's like things like that you don't foresee, and your your launch keeps getting pushed out and the stress builds. But I do think that whilst it might seem kind of delusional, if you are able to manage that stress and keep your energy in alignment with where you want to go, that you can it's almost like like like there's like in philosophy, there's a very common theme of if you allow the kind of future stress of future things that could go wrong to affect you now, then essentially you're living in that agony of a potential future that may not even happen right now for no reason. And I do try and remind myself of that a lot, where it's like, yeah, everything could go tits up and you know, it could be terrible. But unless and until we get to that point, then I will basically pretend as if it's going to be a huge success all the way up until we get to that point and then make that decision from now. And it is definitely an like a an undulating thing, like it's not like I'm I'm perfect at it at all. But that was that was probably one thing I learned from real estate was watching the guys who are best, particularly in my office, they would have these huge ups and downs, you know, of these deals that would fall over that would be hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees, and they were very, very good at modulating their energy and not going crazy up or crazy low, just staying pretty on an even keel. Um, so I do really try and do that and and try and stay as level-headed as possible, like definitely not perfect. And there's weeks where I'm just like you know, really stressed and really tightly wound the whole week and I'm not pleasant to be around. But I try my best because when I'm in a really good state, like just the amount of opportunities that come to you is is crazy. So I try and be very conscious to stay in a really positive state as much as I can.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

One thing, like I know it might sound crazy to people actually hearing this, but one thing that I do is um I really do think of the worst case scenario of anything that I want to do. And I'm like, and I and I actually live that moment in my brain for a bit and actually scares the shit out of me. Yeah. But um after that, I actually feel you know, I'm like, oh, that's the worst that could happen. That's what I'm gonna feel. And then okay, like we've experienced it already. Like let's let's let's move forward.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Yeah, yeah, like Gary V and Alex Mosey talk about that a lot. Yeah. kind of because like and that that was a a a a good exercise like something similar for me was like okay say say like everything kind of there's like this idea of like oh you know the product flops or you know you just run out of you burn all your cash and you know then what it's like well what's actually got to happen to get to that point what are my time frames what can I actually spend and you know so it's actually you get a better idea of how much time you actually have before you've really got to start generating proper revenue and then also say that does happen then then you know be being realistic it's not like you're gonna die like the being realistic you know I'm very fortunate I could always move in with my parents or you know there's people around me um what what would then happen from there on and you know you I've figured out worse situations in the past you can figure that out as well so it's like once I think you just have to at least for me reminding myself of say the worst case does happen then it's realistically like you know if that's your worst problem then there's there's people that are you know going through far worse that you're pretty fortunate overall you know I want to go back to sundae salt now let's talk about sundae salt um because I know you have a passion for fitness and from fitness you can develop a lot of things uh but why gels and electrolytes? Yep so I was using like I've always been into ever since I got really obsessed with basketball uh I've always loved fitness like I've played many different sports but I've always been very uh kind of uh like I've always been really dedicated to disciplining myself through whether it's strength training fitness crossfit whatever it is um and I was using electrolytes a lot and was actually having an import through an American brand and saw that I I really liked the ingredients they were using but saw that there was a use case for uh a different kind of product line with better ingredients and it was just kind of a there was a gap not only in the Australian market but also in the global market to do multiple formulations for different purposes with really really good ingredients and doing something that no one was doing which was using a sweetener that wasn't stevia and wasn't sugar and also Celtic sea salt. So then and and it we were kind of looking at doing this like me and my partner Brit were looking at doing this when um I was looking to exit real estate and I love the health and fitness industry and the wellness industry and I was very interested in doing an e-commerct based business and then it just kind of lined up that I was passionate about the product category and the timing was lining up and I thought I thought at the time it can't be that hard to to to to develop this and do something that nobody else had done especially little startups had done um and then so we basically out of massive naivety and seeing that there was a gap decided decided to do that. And as we were starting the development process of the electrolytes I was also very interested in using gels and I've always just been interested in fueling training. I really like optimizing things and ever since like my basketball days I was doing big training camps and having to fuel many hours of training and I was using gels and I I really I liked the idea but I didn't like most of the actual products and I was having to use gels and electrolytes and I was in I would I would rather use something like a you know rice cracker with honey rather than using these gels and they were purpose built for that. There were some that were all right but most of them were really uh not ideal um so we basically I then saw an opportunity with doing the gels as as a uh another main product line for the business and building them on maple syrup and making them as natural as humanly possible and including electrolytes in them. So then we started developing the electrolytes alongside the sorry the gels alongside the electrolytes and it just happened that we figured out the gels a lot sooner um than the electrolytes so the gels are going to be ready probably about probably about three months before the electrolytes um so we'll launch the gels first and then the electrolytes will be probably about three months after and then we'll be fully launched which will hopefully be in four months from now.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Well I want to give a shout out to Brit here because um she is the mastermind behind the ingredients and we were actually having a conversation before this around how some things in the market out there taste fake and like I love the naturalness that you're bringing to you for the products. So oh I'm I can't wait to try it first of all. But it's crazy like um for me when there's lots of brands out there nowadays right and I know you mentioned a few things that um like you know using more natural sweeteners and uh bringing natural ingredients in there.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

But why do you think your product really stands out in the market I think that outside of just the ingredients and what's actually in the product like I think you could have the best product in the world but if you don't build the brand around it then nobody's gonna know about it nobody's gonna care. So I think that for us building the product and and making sure we're extremely sure that the product is a standout from what the features and benefits of the rest of the market is offering is extremely important and that's the foundation but then from there and it is a big thing I learned from Britt obviously she's a marketing director that your brand that you're building not only in your your tactile pieces like your packaging and you know how you show up through social media and that kind of thing but the community you're building around the brand is just as important as the actual product itself and a lot of the brands in the market at the moment are as you would imagine very either male focused andor very sports and like bright colours kind of focused like very in your face like high energy like very very bright and loud. And we saw that and it makes sense but we saw a big gap being that there isn't a product that's kind of more focused on balance and you know a brand that is for people who aren't necessarily like your extreme athletes where you know they're going to be going to something like a cadence uh in the electrolyte category or like a precision fuel in the in the gel category. There's a gap there to make a product for people who want to you know they want to work hard and and train hard but they also want to have a life and they want to go out on the weekends and you know they want to have a bit of everything and they're not super extreme in any one thing. And we saw that gap there and to build a community around that with the brand and that's really what we've been trying to do as much as possible pre-launch and we don't actually have a product yet but that's been a big focus and that will continue to be a really really big focus being like a community focused brand going forward. What's shocked you the most I would say just how little I know about everything that's involved all the all the I guess how deep the skill level goes on every individual facet that goes into the business. Like I even things like whether it's like on an email like you think okay great how like how hard can emails be but it's it's it's your you've got a design element and then you've also got a sales element then you've got a an element studying the numbers of what has worked in the past what will work you know all these different things that go into making successful emails and they're so so important to your business and that's one little thing. Then you've got ads you've got different kinds of ads you've got uh your organic content like there's so many things that are so hard to even get to a decent level at let alone mastering that definitely surprised me and I would say I would say just how long an expensive product development was like the expectation that was set at the beginning as probably 5x on both the timeframe and the expense to invest to actually develop the products and if you're um if you're not really pushing the envelope as to what you want to achieve you'll fall so far short of what you initially want uh in terms of taste ingredients um you know your packaging everything like if you if you're not super headstrong in your design of the product then it's so easy for your expectations and your vision to get eroded over time. And some things just aren't possible like we wanted to do a tear a certain tab for the top of our gels and we wanted it so when you tear it off it's still included like it's still attached but to fit the machine to do that the way that we wanted to do it the design we wanted to do is going to be minimum 250 grand. So it's like that's something we can do in the future but that's just not appropriate for now. But something like not including stevia in the electrolytes there was a point when we were in the seven versions where I was like I just don't know if this is possible. Like nobody else has been able to do this the way that we want to do it and include Celtic sea salt. I don't know if this is possible but but Brit was extremely headstrong that we have to not include stevia and ultimately eventually we managed to figure out a way not to include stevia and to have it taste really good. And so I'm sort of stoked now that we we stayed the path but there was a time where I was I was genuinely like I don't know if this is possible to get this to taste good and to not do it. So certain things like that I would say have been a big surprise just how hard they are to do um which I didn't expect at the outset. How's it like in this whole process like working with Brittly prone to risk and I am I find it extremely easy to make decisions very very quickly almost to my detriment. Whereas she is very security driven and she likes to think things out methodically she's very organized and calm. So it's a very good balance between the two and she also knows branding in and marketing extremely well and PR so all like we complement each other very well like I am very good at staying in constant action and just being the driving force to push things through and get things done and have an extreme sense of urgency with everything and just push everything faster and now whereas she is great at being very calm, thought out cautious she avoids me making many mistakes and catches them before they happen so it's a very good but it's also like there's certain things like if I know she knows more about something like branding or you know use of verbiage or anything like that she can and she says no I really think we should do that, great. She can do you know I'll I'll trust her judgment on that and it's not worth me you know even if I think we should go in a certain different direction then I'm just not going to invest the time on you know arguing on that or or you know getting stuck on those kind of things. But if it's something that you know it's kind of falls more in my domain then she will divert to me.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

So it's like I think for us we've been very good at letting each other kind of have our own kind of uh points of expertise over the business and we've managed to to figure out a way to work quite well with each other it's a good equilibri equ equilibrium equilibrium I can't say that word um but yeah no that's really awesome I love that um but going back because I saw some of your content recent content as well like you know you you're really openly sharing about the financial journey like you know you've nearly spent 90k and then you're also sharing your wins as well in terms of like you know you got a shipping quote for like 6300 bringing it down to 2100 but it's around your founder network like walk me through like what goes through your head in those moments because like you know 90k a lot of people can use it on something else or you could even invest it in like put on the SP you'll get a little 10% of it a year. Yeah yeah so walk me through like you know what are you doing to you know you're okay with spending but also you have these moments where you know you have wins as for sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Well I think one thing I I I was making content because it was I had a pretty rudimentary understanding and I was like I will make content document the journey people will be excited when that launches and then you've got at least a small customer base for free not spending ads. But what I didn't expect was for so many other founders to be interested in what I was doing who are way further down the line than I am who know so much more than I do to then be invested in what I was doing and then to want to reach out and and help me and for know just because they're you know they appreciate what I'm doing. And that has been a massive massive opportunity which I didn't expect at all. And the the amount of friends that I've made of other especially e-com guys because it is just like such a big overlap who have helped me so much and that because I put up a story because I was shocked. I was like three six point three grand is a wild amount to be spending I was expecting it to be around like anywhere from you know 1900 to two and a half grand that kind of range and then it came back at that and then I had three guys all contact me one who I'd never met before never even spoken to him before and he's like bro call me this is that's fucking crazy. I had a big chat with him he really helped me like he walked me through how the whole thing works like how containers work how the costs work you know if you're doing a part of a container or a full container gave me all this advice just for free and ended up becoming friends with him and you know he's helped me a lot just just for no real reason just because he's a nice guy and that doing putting out all that founder content has gotten so many people invested who just want to help for free because I can't fucking afford to pay them that is that has been huge. And like that and there's there's been so many other little things that are seemingly more insignificant that these guys have have helped me with um then that that has been a a big opportunity that I didn't see coming. And that and that's kind of why I say I wish I started making founder content earlier because it's like every day and every time I have a video that does well there's at least two or three new founders from all different walks that are kind of coming into contact with me and LinkedIn's a big one for that as well. Like now I'm really going very heavy on LinkedIn because it's just like the the amount of knowledge you can tap into with one person who has been there and done it before even if they're a year ahead of you there's so much that you can learn from them even six months ahead of you that it's it's like it's crazy. Like it's such a it's such a big arbitrage that I didn't expect.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

The thing is I think like around the founder like sharing your story and bringing people on a journey is like really really important because I think you build that momentum of actually people they're like oh my god I've been following this story for a long time but also that community as well I think um one thing that I've come across lately is like and I hear this a lot in Australia like the tall poppy syndrome but I haven't personally experienced it so far I've experienced a lot of people like I've seen a lot of people help other people out. I don't know maybe because it's been talked about like and people like no this is not how it works here.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Have you experienced anything like that or me no not really I mean I'm not a very there's no one coming for me I think like in real estate somewhat I think that you where you where you give your energy is what you attract. So if you give your energy to be like oh they're fucking preying on my downfall and then you're going to attract more of that but if you have the mindset that like you know there's really good things coming to me and there's people who are in a wild like I met with a guy last week or the week before who been very successful in the building industry, building and developing industry. He's a kind of a friend friend of friend that I've known for a long time and he's just a super solid guy who's had decades of success in a completely different industry but he's so he's just a wealth of kind of more wisdom in business that he's such a good guy to talk to even though it's a wildly different industry. He understands the product category but wildly different industry and you can just get so much from that if you go in with an open mind being like what can I learn from this person and and even there's there's like I've talked to guys who are at an even earlier stage than me who have taught me things especially if it's like about AI integration and that kind of thing that's very far away from my base of expertise you can still learn so much from them if you just have an open mind about it I think.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

I think I do really agree with the aspect of what energy you give give you receive as well. So I think like you know if you're and I yeah I'm I'm big on energy in terms of that and yeah there's gonna be people that you might cross paths that might not want to help you or you know which is which is normal but I think I do agree on that. Yeah yeah the outlook of it but I'm really curious like now like I know that you're looking for funding and like you know partnering maybe with someone is that is that on your radar?

SPEAKER_03 39:51

It's definitely something I've thought a lot about um it is something I've thought a lot about because there are a lot of bus there's a lot of businesses basically direct competitors that have gone down that route there's some that haven't and it seems like with product based businesses you've kind of got the staircase where you've got enough you make you've got your stock you sell the stock and then you've got enough to kind of reinvest it you know an extra 25% in an extra 25% more stock more ads uh or whatever it is. And then you've just kind of got this staircase and if you inject a whole heap of capital then you can kind of massively jump up and increase your trajectory a lot further forward. But obviously you've got issues with that as well like if you go down the VC route then you you know your terms and how much equity they might want might be unfavorable potentially then you've got your angel route which is something I was looking at a lot more but I think that for me if it's going to be an angel investment it's not just the cash it's also the angel themselves like it would definitely be something it would be very interesting if it was someone who doesn't necessarily have to be an e com but if they are someone in a who's got a skill set and a not so much a um who's kind of got an aligned vision for for us and the brand who isn't just trying to exit in at X and then you know exit out in three years at Y, um who actually really is invested in in us and the journey as well. So if we could find someone like that and it made sense then it definitely would be something that's very very interesting. But I'm also pretty realistic at about the um the likelihood of that happening. So it's like if it if the opportunity does come up then super interested to have that conversation but at the same time we are pretty realistic and not pinning all of our hopes that it has to happen for us to to be successful. We'll just kind of figure it out as we go along it you know and it's not essential but it it would definitely be very interesting if the right investor came along with the right terms.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

I hear a lot about founders like they're specifically some people are not after you know that partnership or that angel investor.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

Yeah some people are like hardcore we're bootstrapped and I get that I get it like that's great. Yeah I wouldn't say we're we're not either extreme we're we're always open to a good opportunity either way. 100% um but there like if you're in tech for example then your your circumstances very different you've got to build something for a long period of time if we can monetize so you're in a different position. But I would say we're not we're not wetted either way to either direction. It's just got to be whatever is going to be best for the business overall.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Yeah it's good to have that open mind especially in that um in that phase. But I'm really curious to know like who really inspires you like and what's the quality about them that really stands out.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

I would say my my main um I guess uh like the guy I look up to the most would be Alex Mosey. He's like the guy who I just love his content and Layla as well his wife I love her content as well and I very much see a lot of myself in Alex um just with like his he's very interested in philosophy as well as as am I and just like the commitment to like the dogmatic pursuit of success. I really relate to that but he would be there's and there's actually quite a few founders in the space that I really look up to like the Cadence founder Ross I really really like I really admire what he's built. And there's like the the founder of uh Bloom big fan of his work as well like there's a there's there's a quite a few in the wellness space that I look up to and then there's obviously like your all time goats like the Steve Jobs of the world and and those kind of guys who have built just amazing Amazing empires. I look up to them a lot, but I also like growing up, I was a massive Jordan, like uh Jordan and Kobe Bryant fan. Um, just like their way they would compete and uh just viciously compete with their competitors. I really I loved that, and that's what I loved about basketball was the competitiveness of it. And I actually it got to the point where I was just I loved refining and refining the skill in training, and I I've always loved doing that, and I loved the the viciousness of competition, but then I ultimately kind of fell out of love with the sport, but uh getting sidetracked. But I would say the main the main guy that I really look up to and relate to his content the most would be Alex, Alex Emozi, I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Yeah, he does have good content, yeah. Yeah, sometimes I feel like it's too hardcore for me as well. But um, like I do like um, I do like that aspect and perspective, and um, there's so many like I love like with social media and now like this whole personal branding and everything. You have access to these people now, like very direct access, and they're sharing their insights, which like I think 20 years ago, like it would be very challenging to you know know about that person. So I think like you know, social media does have its um benefits as well. Definitely. I want to bring it back to especially in this early phase, you're in that high pressure environment. And I know that like coming back from real estate, it was also a very high pressure environment in certain aspects. But how do you like find balance? Like, what's that one thing that like grounds you that you do and makes you like you know, keep moving forward?

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Um, I think that it's funny, like the brand ethos is find your balance. Um, and I am someone who's very not, I find it very hard to find balance personally, which is kind of like the irony of building the brand around it. But I also think it's incredibly important, whilst it is very, very hard for me. Um I I think that my natural response would be you know, training, training, but that is also another kind of extension that something that Britt reminds me of all the time. That yes, training is is a is different to building the business, but it's very much a similar kind of action of just raw force and discipline and training and refining. So I think that it would be things where as much as building the business and training are extremely important to me, and they are what I spend the vast majority of my time doing. But now getting older, there are other things that I've ultimately realized are more important overall. Like if the business went down tomorrow, then it's it's very, very sad, but it's not life shattering. Whereas if there's personal relationships and those kind of things that if I lost tomorrow, then it'd be absolutely devastating. So I think spending a lot more time with family and doing things that are not necessarily business or training related as much as I love those things, where it's uh, you know, doing things like getting out of nature, where it's I wouldn't go for a hike personally because I'm like, I could be working, this is so many so much time. But when Brit forces me to do it with her, I am much more even killed and on balance when I go back into work. And it just is a very good reset. And doing things like, you know, going to the beach when I was in Bond, I used to do that a bit. And those kind of resets are very good when I I do find them, I find a natural tendency not to do them. I would just much rather sit at my computer and work, but it's just another layer of discipline, having the discipline to actually break from work at certain times to then go and reset to not ultimately burn out because that was something I did a lot in my career. It would hit November and I'd been doing 70 to 80 hour weeks the entire year, and I was just so sick of it, I didn't care about anything. I was like, I don't care if this deal falls over, I don't care about anything. I just need to get away from work for like a week, two weeks. Whereas instead of doing that, being more balanced throughout the year, when I figured out how to do that better, there was I would get to the end of November and I wouldn't be in a bad state like I was early on. So I think that doing certain things, whether it's you know, it just more of uh like things that are more calm and more grounded in the present moment, I find very, very hard to do. It's not a natural thing for me to do. Yeah, but doing those things and spending time with family and non-work and training things are ultimately very beneficial, I found, and and are ultimately more fulfilling over the long run than just grinding it out 24-7 and working constantly.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Sometimes I when I'm so motivated, I could be doing like two weeks, no contact with anyone, like go, go, go. But then I forget that you know, I I always come back to this that tomorrow is not guaranteed and you don't know when you'll see someone again or whether you know things certain things happen in life where you might not be in the situation you are right now. So I think it's having that approach of being very present as well, but also you know, achieving the things that you want because you can't you can have both, but I think it depends on what seasons of life you're in. Definitely, but just coming back to that is very, very important.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

Yeah, and there's there's times where you just have to put in a huge volume of work where like at the moment, like I will get up if I'm not PTing or like coaching in the morning, I'll get up still uh no later than 5:30, and then I'm working by 6 a.m. and I'm finishing anywhere from 9 30 to 10 p.m. Pretty pretty pretty regularly. Um, and that's that's fine. I'm very, very happy to be doing that. I'm exhausted at the end of it, but I'm very happy to have the opportunity to do that. Having said that, when then the opportunity comes up to go and see my parents on the weekend or see my brother or go and do something with Britt, it's also very important I do that as well, which can be slightly more difficult to pull yourself away. And also another thing that I really found very hard is to be present when you're doing that and not still mentally thinking about work. Because I used to do that a lot and I still do it sometimes, but I try to be very present in what I am currently doing. It's the same thing if you're working and it's a low-level task, but you're still you're thinking about some other bigger problem that you've got in the business. I do that very easily, and then the work I'm doing right now is shit. And then I have to redo it later on because the quality is crappy because I'm thinking about something else. So I think that it is something I struggle with, but it's very, very important to be very present in what you're doing, even if it's a low-level task, being very present and doing it to the best of your ability at that time so you don't have to redo it so much later on.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I have to stamp myself out of it all the time. Yeah. So if Sunday, Sunday salt fails completely and not the way that you want it to go, what what do you think you'll take out of this journey? A lot of free electrolytes.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

Um, what would I take out of it? I would say that I would take out of it that you can, if you do anything new, you can probably assume that the skill curve that is gonna be required is so much greater than what you can possibly imagine. But your ability to learn new skills is also far beyond for most people what they can actually imagine they're capable of over a long time long period of time. So it's gonna be a lot harder than what you think, but your capabilities over a long time horizon are also far more than what you think. And I think that if you can just take a longer term view, and we're still obviously super, super young, um, but if you can take a long-term view over it, then you've actually got a much greater potential than a lot of people think than what they do, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Yeah, and I feel like coming back to the long-term view, I think sometimes we're so conditioned to think in the short term, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, you know, I feel like, but in general, it becomes part of our habit that we forget, like, hey, okay, we can think about like a year's time, two years' time, and the skills that you accumulate over time. So I I do really, really agree, agree with that. But I'm gonna finish off with this. What's your next step?

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Next step is uh, and really the next big focus is building the community around the brand and like the engagement and like the love and support has been just so amazing. Like, we we haven't even done anything yet, really. And just taking people along all the ups and downs with us, and people have been so invested, obviously, a very small amount of people, but the love and support has been so good, and just building on that and trying to reward the people who have been with us through everything as much as we can when the product is actually ready. Both both uh different products are actually ready, and just uh really building that connection with the community. Like, I would much rather have a product that is absolutely beloved by a smaller amount of people than a product that's generally accepted by a really, really large group. So really focusing in on that. Like when we actually do launch, we want to do a few key events. Um, nothing crazy, but a few smaller runs with the gels. And then once we have the gels and the electrolytes ready to launch, we want to do some big events and just really try and kind of put put on something that's really enjoyable and valuable for the community who've been with us since the beginning. And as that builds, just try and give as much value to them as possible. Um, so I'd say that would be the main focus, as well as all the back end stuff of you know finishing the websites, building ads, more email flows, you know, photography, all that other kind of boring stuff in the background, but on the front end, building the community as much as possible and and and giving them as much value as we can, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Yeah, it's really exciting.

SPEAKER_03 54:33

Very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

I like, you know, I as I come back to this all the time. Like, I'm a very big energy person, but like my feeling towards Sunday salt and where it's going, like it's so exciting, and like I know it's gonna be amazing. Just knowing you and Brit um for the short amount of time that I know, I can see like the energy that's going behind it, the love, the care, the little details that you're thinking of. Like it's it's so valuable, and and that sets you so much apart from other things, but not even comparing that, it's just so uniquely you and you're putting yourself into that product. So I can't wait.

SPEAKER_03 55:09

Thank you so much. I'm very grateful. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Thank you for being here. And um, we'll leave your details in the show notes. So reach out to Ollie, follow Sunday Salt, stay tuned, um, and yeah, be the first to get your product.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

Thank you so much.