Ep 12: The Psychologist Who Forgot How to Cope || Ben Jepsen

Everyone knows the coping strategies. Ben Jepsen spent 6 years studying them, then forgot every single one when he burnt out.

He's an organisational psychologist who completed 6 years of psychology training, hit a wall he didn't see coming, and only realised he was burnt out a month later when someone told him. Out of that funk came Blue Friend, a mental health card deck that started as a shoebox of fidget toys and resilience cards he made for himself, and has since reached 250+ people through workshops.

In this episode Ben (founder of Blue Friend) and I talk about why we forget the things that make us feel better right when we need them most, the science of labelling your emotions to calm your nervous system, why "impact over profit" kept him moving when charging for wellbeing felt wrong, and what it took to come back after quitting for two months.

This one is for anyone sitting in the middle ground of languishing, struggling to put themselves out there, or holding an idea they're too burnt out or scared to start.

This episode discusses burnout and mental health. If you're struggling, support is available - please reach out to someone you trust or a professional service in your area.

WHAT WE COVER:

• Why we forget our coping strategies exactly when we need them most.
• The signs of burnout most people miss until it's too late.
• How labelling your emotions sends a calming signal to your brain.
• Box breathing and why the long exhale relaxes your nervous system.
• "Impact over profit" and the discomfort of charging for wellbeing.
• How to filter advice when everyone has an opinion (the Brené Brown Venn diagram).
• Why courage comes before confidence, not the other way around.
• Quitting for two months and what pulled him back.
• Building a "cookie jar of wins" so you don't forget your own progress.
• Why the smartest first step is self-compassion, not action.

TIMESTAMPS
 [00:00] — Subscribe + welcome
 [00:37] — Who is Ben and what is Blue Friend
 [01:30] — Not realising he was burning out and the signs he missed
 [03:37] — Languishing: the word he learned in COVID for the middle ground
 [04:02] — What the people around him couldn't see
 [05:52] — The shoebox that became a mental health card deck
 [07:52] — Flicking through the deck and why reminders matter
 [09:58] — The science: why the brain deletes our coping strategies
 [10:47] — Normalising the struggle and labelling your emotions
 [14:09] — The unglamorous side of turning a passion project into a business
 [16:16] — Reframing money: people investing in themselves
 [19:18] — Quitting for two months and what brought him back
 [22:28] — Walking through the deck: affirmation, grounding and action cards
 [26:47] — Box breathing live, and the seven-second version
 [34:40] — Why psychology, and the 13-year-old who knew
 [37:38] — How to filter advice when everyone has an opinion
 [41:39] — Courage before confidence and putting yourself out there
 [44:45] — Building a founder toolkit and adapting from user feedback
 [49:47] — Grit, taking breaks, and why your baseline never resets
 [52:34] — What he'd say to anyone too burnt out or scared to start

CONNECT WITH BEN JEPSEN
INSTAGRAM — https://www.instagram.com/bluefriendben/
LINKEDIN — https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-jepsen/

INFORMATION ON BLUE FRIEND
WEBSITE — https://www.bluefriend.com.au/
INSTAGRAM — https://www.instagram.com/bluefriendau/
LINKEDIN — https://www.linkedin.com/company/bluefriend/

CONNECT WITH MAHDIEH
INSTAGRAM — https://www.instagram.com/mahdieh.rassafiani/
LINKEDIN — https://www.linkedin.com/in/mahdieh-rassafiani-97611a185/

FOLLOW YOUR NEXT STEP PODCAST
INSTAGRAM — https://www.instagram.com/yournextstep.pod/
TIKTOK — https://www.tiktok.com/@yournextstep.pod
YOUTUBE — https://www.youtube.com/@yournextsteppodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

There's this word that I learned during COVID called like languishing, where it's like, I'm not thriving, I'm not suffering, but I'm somewhere in the middle. I didn't realize at the time that I was burning out. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

I've definitely for sure done this. Like swept my emotions on the rug, just kept on going, and be like, I'll deal with that later.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

About two years ago, I just stopped working on Blue Food. Completely.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

For me, charging people the money aspect of it is so uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

So for me, I've got a little mantra, which is impact on puffing.

SPEAKER_04 0:36

And I thought that if I don't listen to all these people that have made it in my eyes, like advice.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Then I'm doomed. Genuinely, I thought like I'm doomed for life.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

I think back to this idea of courage comes before confidence.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

I remember when I first put out my podcast. I remember that like two the two weeks built up to it. I think I had a panic attack moment. Like my mission is so much higher than other people's opinion.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

I would start with self-compassion.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

Before we start this episode, I have a huge favor to ask. If you've been enjoying the conversations with our incredible guests where we talk about mindset resilience and why they're doing the things they're doing, I'd love you to subscribe to your next step with Maddie Rasafiani on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. It's the best way to grow the show and bring on your favorite guests, but also making sure it's reaching the people that need to hear it the most. All right, let's get into it. Well, thank you for being on your next step today, Ben. For people that don't know you yet, who's Ben and what's Bluefriend in your own words?

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Well, I'm a founder. I am a brother. I'm an older brother of two siblings. Uh, I'm a partner, uh, son, and all that stuff that like isn't a founder. Um, I'm an organizational psychologist, which is kind of like applying psychology to work. And I love like designing ways of making work better and things like that. Bluefriend is kind of like a passion project that I started a couple of years ago after I burned out, and it's something that I've been putting my heart and soul into over the last few years, and it's been really, really enjoyable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:27

And you touch on burnout. It's something that I feel a lot of people in their lifetime will experience, well, at least experience it once.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

What did it feel like day to day? What were what were your signs? And when did you like know that you'd hit a wall that you just were like, this is burnout. I need to take a step back.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yeah. So a couple of so it was really interesting because I didn't realize at the time that I was burning out. I had no idea. Um, what I realized was I kind of stumbled over at work and in this placement that I was doing and I was making mistakes, but I didn't realize in that moment, I kind of realized maybe a month or so afterwards when I sought some support and I was like, is something wrong with me? And they said, No, there's nothing wrong with you. You're just burnt out. And that's kind of the moment that I realized. I think looking back, some of the things that I noticed was being tired all the time, being a little bit sadder than usual, not being my usual self, not enjoying things that I used to enjoy as much. But also, like, there's this word that I learned during COVID called like languishing, where it's like, I'm not thriving, I'm not suffering, but I'm somewhere in the middle. And a lot of people during COVID felt that way. And I I definitely felt that way. I felt like I was just kind of hanging on and not my usual self. And yeah, I can I can talk more about that as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

What did the people around you not see whilst you were going through the burnout phase? Because I feel that sometimes we go through things, but not many people can pick it up.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

For me, I kind of uh blanked out during that period of burnout. Um, but I asked my friends and family afterwards, and I I said, you know, what was I like during that time? And they they said you weren't your usual self. You kind of yeah, didn't have that uh love for life that you typically would have. And that was quite sad because I I'm typically a pretty cheerful guy, and I'd like to think that I enjoy life, but yeah, it was a little bit of a um a wake-up call. I didn't really notice the signs at the beginning, and then after I got some support, I actually started to like really have like a high level of self-awareness of like, yeah, what what my signs were and when I was a little bit wobbly, and that was really helpful.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Yeah, being conscious of the signs. Sometimes I feel like it's in your subconscious, but when you're conscious of what those signs are or how your body feels and you're aware in your awareness of it, it really helps you when it's actually about to happen again.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah, I I think it's the first step, right? It's like you're you're feeling something and it's almost like your check engine light goes on or your low fuel gauge light turns on, and it's like, okay, great, what can I do about this or how can I process this, or maybe I can talk to someone about it. It's typically the first step that I that I suggest to people. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 5:47

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about the concept of Bluefront and how that is today.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

So when I burnt out a couple a couple of years ago, when I was in that funk, I actually forgot the things that made me feel better. So I had friends who I was talking to for support. I was also talking to psychologists. I was also talking to friends who happened to be a psychologist as well. And they were suggesting things to do, to look after myself, going for walks and looking after my mental health. And I realized that I actually knew all these things. I had just completed like six years of psychology training as well. So I was really confused because I had forgotten these things that made me feel better when I needed them the most. And so what I did was I created my very first like mental health first aid kit. It was like a box. I think it was a shoe box, and it had fidget toys in it, and it had play-doh, like mini play-doh, and then it had bubble wrap, and also these resilience cards that I developed on Microsoft PowerPoint to like remind myself to do box breathing and mindfulness activities and like basic coping strategies. Anyways, I shared the idea with people. I started making some kits for some friends, and one person reached out and said, Hey, can you actually help these participants of a leadership program to create their own mental health kits? I said, Absolutely. I would love to do that. So I designed a workshop for 30 participants, 60 participants at a leadership program to create their own mental health kit. And since then I've run nine workshops for about 250 people or so to create their own mental health kit. And I've also turned the most important or the most loved cards that I include into like a deck of cards that I now sell online. And that's kind of blueprint in a nutshell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:51

Oh, and I can see we have a few of those decks here with us today.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

We have our decks.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Yeah. I remember um the first catch-up that we had after a long time. Yeah. Um, I were talking about it. And because I was so curious about what is this card deck? And yeah, I actually have one myself, by the way. Um and ever since I've actually been flicking through it from time to time. Oh, awesome. I think I'll bring it back to myself. And I know, you know, there are people out there that these days everyone has a busy life, but I think it's so important, as you said, that there are things that you know that make you feel better, but you actually forget that that actually makes you feel better because you're caught up in the in your life, in the go, go, go. And I think having reminders like similar to the card deck that you created, or having reminders in a whatever way, shape, or form can actually really help you make sure that you're on the right track and you don't go through those phases of downtime. I mean, like it's life, right? People need to experience the lows in order to appreciate the highs as well, and vice versa, right? But I think I think it's important to have those reminders.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

I I think that's exactly where I'm coming from, is like acknowledging that we do know these things. And it's just nice when we're down in the dumps or low, or like we've just got a lot on. It's just really nice to have that reminder that picked me up. I, the the very first point of feedback that I ever got was someone in year 12 had used the cards. She was gifted some cards from a friend of mine, and she came up to me and she was like, I use I put these cards on my mirror, and it helped me get through uh like HSC. And it was really helpful for her. That was my very first point of feedback. I think, as well, like from a psychological perspective, part of the reasons why we forget our coping strategies has to do with the way that the brain works. And I like to educate people on like the fact that our McDonald does spike, our memory centers shut down, sadness slows the brain down. Like, and there are valid reasons why we forget these things. So I like to remind people that it's like it's a human thing, and there's science as to like why that happens as well.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

For those listening today and they're in their business journey, for example, or they're in this path where it's it's challenging times for them. What is one thing that you would tell them in terms of a strategy, psychological strategy, that you know you've seen works really well for people?

SPEAKER_02 10:48

I think for people who are suffer suffering or finding it challenging, I think normalizing that is like the very first step. Life life is hard and it sucks sometimes. And we are human beings, and this is part of my workshop is I actually come out and admit that I am a human being and I am susceptible to the full range of human emotions, right? So I think it's the first step is to normalize and validate those experiences. But a really effective tool that is kind of like for me, it's kind of a catch-all. I think it's a really effective tool is this idea of labeling your emotions. So if you've ever come across an emotion wheel or like a list of emotions before, it's really effective when you're feeling not great to actually pick and choose a couple of emotions that you feel in that moment. So, for example, I was on a plane to Perth, I had some family uh issues. One of my close family friends was passing away at that time. And I had a lot on. And I I picked up one of my emotion wheels, and I was going through the list and I was drained, I was fatigued, I was um, I was worried, and but I was also excited as well. And the reason why labeling is actually useful is because it activates the the front part of our brain, the thinking part, the one that problem solves, the one that uh thinks logically, and it uh links back to the emotional center of the brain. It literally sends soothing signals to that stress center. It's called the amygdala. And uh by just simply labeling your emotions, you're able to reset your stress and nervous system. But you're also able to identify how you're feeling, and you're also able to communicate that with others. There's a big difference between feeling tired and exhausted. There's a big feeling, there's a big difference between feeling um worried and anxious. So I think by labeling it, you can calm your brain down, but you can also communicate with others how you feel.

SPEAKER_04 13:07

Yeah. That's that's very important. I feel like sometimes, yeah, I think giving attention to the feeling is so important. Yeah. Because I feel like a lot of times I've definitely for sure done this, like swept my emotions on the rug, just kept on going and be like, oh, I'll deal with that later.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:27

But I feel like if you confront it early on and you're aware of it, it actually helps you in the long run.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Yeah, there's absolutely a place for like, um I think there's a time and a place for sweeping it under the rug, like if you really need to focus for the next, you know, hour or day. For example, if an athlete is really um, really upset right before their race, it's probably not amazing to experience all those emotions and process it on the starting line or as they're running. Uh, but absolutely like identifying those emotions and then having a couple of tools to process them is typically very, very important. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

I'm so curious to know what was like the most unglamorous part of turning a passion project, which is Bluefriend, into a business that no one ever warned you about.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

I think there are there are glamorous parts to it and there are also unglamorous parts. I'm not very I'm not very I don't like commercializing well-being products. It really doesn't go against go with my values. I really find it difficult to make profit out of a well-being organization where people are paying for well-being or supporting their own well-being or supporting the well-being of others. I I I really am grappling with that and processing that myself and like working through that. Um, so to turn it from a kind of non-for-profit passion project that I really enjoy doing to a commercialized kind of business has been has been tricky. It's also been tricky as well because I'm not very strong with accounting and finance. Like my dad was an an accountant, I still haven't got that part of his genes yet. Um, but yeah, it's it's been tricky. So for me, I I was stagnated by that perspective that this is a well-being organization that is potentially making profit, and that really led to me procrastinating a lot. But I've kind of adjusted my mindset around this and I've suggested that if I can make impact to people, if I can make the world a better place, if I can add value for people, then I I can absolutely make some profit eventually. So for me, I've got a little mantra, which is impact over profit. And there's probably investors out there screaming, but it helps me progress, and I think that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

Yeah, that's that's really that's really an interesting viewpoint because one way I feel like I'm the same in terms of anything I start for me, charging people or the money aspect of it is so uncomfortable. But one thing I was talking to like my coach and another person a few a while back, and it's actually helped reframe my mind around what does it mean for you to charge money, right? So I'm sure you believe in yourself. I believe in this in the in the stuff that I'm doing. But they were like, look at it in a way of them investing in themselves. And no matter what you do, there's a allocation of time that you like if you want to grow, like you know, in any aspect of your life, there's a time aspect to it. And a lot of the times you might you'll have to invest some in something financially, whether it's indirect or direct. And if you look at it in that way and you're charging that person, obviously, within reason, money, yeah, then you have this obligation to put in your best foot forward as well. Right. I'm not saying like, you know, everything has to be transactional, everything has to be, you know, like think of every single dollar you're you're making.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

But I think it's a way that two parties are committed to what what's there. Like, imagine like all the free time, the the times that you've gotten something free out of like, you know, uni open days or whatever, like, and then you don't appreciate it. Whereas like you might get, like, you know, for example, I'll give an example of a scrunchie, and then you've actually bought scrunchies that you know, from a shop. I can guarantee like it's subconsciously, I take care more of the thing that's yes, I've put money or invested into it versus something that's given to me for free. Not saying that, you know, you shouldn't do free things or whatever. But I think that has really that mindset shift has really helped me in terms of how to deal with money. Because, you know, money doesn't always mean it's bad either.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Yeah. No, I've I've never thought about the investment point of view. Like people are investing in their their well-being and potentially providing the services or the products gives them that opportunity to invest in themselves or or someone else. So, yeah, absolutely processing it myself and you know, questioning uh the worth of uh some some of myself at times. I think that's a very, very real thing that I am going through is what what value can I bring? And I think it is there. I just think I don't immediately think about all the amazing feedback that I've had so far.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

But yeah, I I really like the perspective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

Yeah. I'm so curious to know what's was there a moment in this journey so far that you were like, I'm just gonna walk away from it? And then if so, what went through your brain and what has got you to keep going?

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah, I have I I recently saw a a professional athlete who competed in the Olympics, and I and I perceive him as a really strong professional athlete who's consistent and shows up, but he said he wanted to quit five times. That was a really surprising thing for me. About two years ago, I just stopped working on Bluefriend completely. I took two months off, and that was purely because I just didn't didn't have the heart. What happened was I had a conversation with my mum who was helping me with the business, and it was a really uh disheartening conversation. I came out feeling quite flat. We'd had a bit of a heated uh discussion about it. And then the next day, I had a very similar conversation with my partner and who's also helping me with the business. And so I just felt very disheartened for about two months. What happened then was I caught up with an old business mentor who's kind of hilarious and lots of energy, lots of good vibes. And she essentially, just without me kind of prompting, just gave me lots of great feedback on the idea, talked about how her daughter would use the cards and that sparked something in me. And it's actually been something that's maintained my kind of uh it's maintained my effort over time. Just this idea of people providing feedback or getting excited about Bluefriend and new new ideas that Bluefriend could turn into, or maybe how it's helped them in the past. And that really has kept me really happy and kept me going. It's made me progress. And I'm really thankful for those people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

Yeah, it's always nice having people that I think challenge you in the journey and you know, shake you up because not every day, you know, you're on the right track. And, you know, you need people to hold you accountable in certain ways, but there's also like the other aspect where people boost your energy or give you ideas in a way as well.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

I I love it. And like I was talking about people forgetting their coping strategies. I also think we forget our wins. I also think we forget that like amazing feedback that people have provided. I was talking to an army psychologist, and she was saying she asks her clients to create a cookie jar. Of wins or positive moments in their journey. And so in my mind, I've got this cookie jar of really nice feedback. For example, someone attended a workshop and they've still got their card in the car, like hanging up. And like that's really nice. Or they've got their self-care box sitting in their room. Like that sort of thing really re reminds me of the impact that I'm making and it it helps me progress.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

Um, I'm really curious. Um, for those that are watching, can you walk us through the card deck of like, for example, if I'm using it, what's something that I'll see?

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Okay. So well, would you like to would you like to go through it? Or I can I'll take one card.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

We'll we'll take we'll take one one card each. Okay, so I will give you one of my favorite cards, and I'll give you this one, and I'll give you this one. I'll give you my favorite cards, and then I'll I'll I'll talk people through it.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

This is fun. This is awesome. So you've got three cards. So when people open up the box, they will see that there are three different types of coping or resilience cards. The first type they are affirmation cards, so they are reminders. So I've got one that says like, keep going, you got this. It's not overly complex. The idea being that like a little bit of encouragement does go a long way. These are meant to be realistic. These like if you read it, you won't find anything that's like untrue or generalized. Like they're meant to be encouraging and kind of logical, rational, not too airy-fairy because these are evidence-based cards. Uh, so what one, which affirmation did you get?

SPEAKER_04 24:03

So I got, I didn't get an affirmation card. I uh got a question.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

So it's am I setting unrealistic expectations for myself or others? What might be more realistic? That I am laughing at this because I last year I was spending time with my parents and I was so stressed and anxious because I there was lots to do on my to-do list, and oh, I was just I was like overloaded, just in a really bad headspace. Yeah. And my mom just like looked at me and was like, Maddie, you know, you're starting all these things and you're the actual boss yourself. So you know you can actually sit down and you know make things that are realistic. And she always reminds me that, you know, you can you can't have everything at once, but you can have everything over time.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:03

And that like I constantly remind myself of that because, you know, we sometimes set ourselves like unrealistic goals because we're either influenced by social media or, you know, people that have people that we've really look up to, but we don't really look at the depth of it that those have also taken time. And, you know, to be realistic in an ideal world, like, yeah, things do take time. And you've just got to be patient. And that's with even like when you hire someone as well in your business or your job or whatever, you've got to be patient with them to for them to actually find their feet and adapt to the to the the work culture that you're creating. So I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

I completely agree. Yeah. My mum also said a very similar thing. She mum says, you can have every every you can have everything you want, just not all at once.

unknown 25:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

That's what she says. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

And like this, this kind of process of like going through the deck and like kind of reflecting on what resonates with you and looking through and exploring that that's kind of the advice that I give to people. That's typically how people use the deck, is they they flick through and they find the the affirmations or reminders or tools that resonate with them. And then they typically put it around their house or they leave it in their bag or they put it on the fridge or the mirror and they keep it somewhere where they might be reminded of it. They might take a photo of it, uh, they might put it in the back of their phone or something like that. Um, okay, so that was a really good one. That's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

I did like that one.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

So though those are the reminder affirmation cards. And then the second category are grounding cards. So what did you what's your I got breathe. Yeah, what does it say?

SPEAKER_04 26:50

So in for four, hold for four, out for four, hold for four. And sorry, I'm giving experience. Um, I'll I'm giving um examples on this. I met someone like four or five years ago, no, four years ago, three years ago, something in between those lines. And it was quite funny how before, like, I wasn't into like meditation or like I've heard of it, but I always thought it was like one of those buzz, buzzwords kind of thing of oh, meditate, you know, open your heart, all that stuff. And that person really introduced me to how the breathing and your breath is so important. Because one, I think when you are anxious, when you are happy, when you're sad, when all the emotions that you have, the one thing that if you are conscious about that changes in those emotions is your breath. And when you can control your breathing, I don't know, like for me, when I control my breathing, if I'm sad, anxious, and just have like breathing in for four, holding for four, like I do for seven, actually. Oh, it really actually calms me down. And it's the most like simple thing that I think you can do, but it just changes everything. So I think breathing is very, very important. I think we should do we should hold our breath for four.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah. So you want to we can we can go through it so um anyone at home can can join in. So the uh what we're gonna do is we breathe in for four counts, then we hold for four counts. So we breathe out for four counts, and then we hold for four counts. And we like to do that maybe three times. We'll go through it once.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

So ready in, two, three, four, hold, two, three, three, four, out, two, three, three, four, hold, two, three, four.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

So what box breathing does so you've come across it, you've done it in the past, you love it. I really like the way that you described it breathing. So if anyone's ever held their like heart rate or monitored their heart rate as they're breathing, what they will actually notice is their heart rate slows down when they hold their breath or when they breathe out. So we are literally sending a signal to our nervous system to chill out and to calm down. And that's like why you you said that you feel calm after a breathing session is because our nervous system literally slows down, our heart rate slows down, and we can do that through our breath. And you also said you do longer breathing, is that right?

SPEAKER_04 29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

What what do you do?

SPEAKER_04 29:46

So I just instead of doing four seconds, it's seven rounds of seven, so sorry, seven rounds of seven seconds of inhale, seven seconds of hold, seven seconds of exhale, and seconds, seven seconds of hold again. Oh, okay. So you do box breathing, but for seven seconds.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yeah, but seven. Wow, that's very impressive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

Yeah, that's like I think seven, like in general, I don't know why. I always think it's a good number. And the person that that first introduced me to it got me on the seven. So I'm like, seven, it is.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

So the the longer outbreath, that like the longer you do the outbreath, the more relaxed you're gonna feel. So if you so for example, one of these that I've got in my hand is actually very similar. It's actually uh breathe in for four, hold for seven, and then out for eight. And I remember, I remember one of my old mentors, uh, she's a psychologist, and I did a placement with her. She said, as you're holding for your breath for seven seconds, what are you thinking about? And I said, I'm thinking about like how hard it is to hold my breath. She was like, Exactly. You're not thinking about all the things that are going on in your life. I was like, Yeah, I appreciate that. And at the same time, like, we're chilling out, we're relaxing. So that's an example of a grounded card.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

So then the last little category uh are what I call action cards. So what have you got?

SPEAKER_04 31:21

So I've got this um box, which I'll zoom in on this. So it's a prioritize. And so on the X axis, it's urgency, and on the Y axis is importance. Yeah. And then so I believe that if it's really, really important and urgent, so it's you schedule it in. If it's not so urgent, but important, am I explaining this right? You do it now.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

I think so. So if it's like important and urgent.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

Yeah, important and urgent, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

You want to do it, you want to prioritize it. So this is essentially a way of like taking all the tasks that we have, because we live lead busy lives and prioritizing them, putting them in little buckets. So the most urgent, most important, go into that, prioritize, do it, do it as soon as possible. But then it also asks you to assess, you know, how urgent is this task? Yeah, it might be important, but is it due tomorrow or next week? So we schedule in when to do them instead of doing it right now, which frees up so much time. And then it also suggests to like delegate those tasks that are really urgent, but it's not as important for you to do it. So you might give it to someone else. And then it says the non-import non-important, non-urgent tasks kind of avoid or just don't do them as much as possible.

SPEAKER_04 32:43

We do and delegate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Have you come across this one before? Yeah, I have.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

Yeah. And I think um before that as well, for the life of me, I forgot who um introduced me to this as well. They were like scheduling your task based on the this four box, like really actually helps you organize your brain really, really well. And a lot of the times I think the anxiety comes from not for you not like actually having things organized. It's all in your head. And once you actually write it down or confront it, it makes you feel better.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Oh, yeah. It gets out of your brain and onto a piece of paper. You don't have to think about it as much. It's not coming up again. I I like it. These are tools that I might use with like clients who are struggling with a very high workload, but they don't need necessarily to process emotions and things like that. There are very practical things that we can do to make ourselves feel better, one of which is address the thing that's stressing you out and like reduce your workload. So that's like that's why we have action cards. It prompts something to do. But you'll notice, like, I've kind of tried to design it as thoughtfully as possible. You recognized most of these tools just now. They are not the most complex tools. That's actually the point. When someone is struggling or they're overwhelmed or they're tired, the last thing that they need is for someone to tell them, hey, go for a run. Like, go and like do this big, large thing to support your well-being. And that definitely has its place. But this deck is not is not that yet. I think I will create some other decks with some more complex coping strategies. And yeah, that's all I have to say about that.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Yeah, no, I love that. But I'm curious to know why did you go down the psychology path?

SPEAKER_02 34:44

I was thinking about this recently and I couldn't come up with a coherent answer because I kind of just always wanted to. In high school, I was that guy who would be listening to other people and their struggles. Maybe I was the well-being guy, but I was always happy to help and just like help people and listen. And then my mum was teaching at the time, and I was in the back of one of her classrooms, and she said to the she was teaching careers at the time. She asked the students, What do you want to do when you graduate? And I was maybe 13 at the time. I put my hand up, I said, I want to be a psychologist. Yeah. And she was like, ha ha, like you're 13. And I've just been interested ever since. I I really like helping people support their well-being. I'm a guy who's um struggled with with mental health, maybe, maybe towards the back end of my studies, not necessarily um in high school and during uni. Um, but yeah, it's something I've been passionate about. Yeah. And I haven't yet put my finger on exactly how, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Yeah, I feel like sometimes you're just gravitated towards something and you find out the reason later on, but it's just a natural pull towards it. And yeah, and I think the core of it is hearing from you, you just like helping people.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

So yeah, my I have like a value, a set of values, and I love service and connecting with other people as well, and like helping people, so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

Is there someone that when you started Bluefriend saw like the potential and hyped you up to do it?

SPEAKER_02 36:25

This is really interesting. I think there's one person that comes to mind, and then there's many, many, many people in small doses. So the person that comes to mind is Mom, right? Mom's always seen that big potential. She has grand ideas for where this could go, which is so nice, which is really um reassuring, and it gives me a bit of hope into the future as well. But also, I love sharing and talking about Bluefriend. I do like I do like the reaction that people have when they hear about Bluefriend. Um, I think they can tell that I'm an authentic sort of guy trying to do my best. And they often see lots of potential for it to go. So I've had so many ideas from different people saying, Oh, you could make this into an app, or you could develop this certain deck of cards that addresses a certain challenge, like depression or anxiety, or you know, a deck just for children, things like that. And I think that general vibe of like lots of people supporting me, giving me lots of ideas, like that's really propelled me forward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

What do you do when everyone gives you a lot of advice and you're like, oh my God, each person is good in their niche in a way, and you know, their advice is good. But how do you like filter that for what's best for you?

SPEAKER_02 37:52

I really struggle with this. I really struggle with the volume at of advice that comes through. I've recently joined uh a startup program, and with that comes lots of connections with people and lots of ideas. I suppose there's a couple of things that helps me coming back to the values of Bluefriend. So I do want to connect with people, I do want to serve people, I do want to support people, coming back to impact over uh profit as well. There's also like obviously like business models and things like that that I refer to, and I ask my question my question of is this aligned with that? But also like, what is the broader vision of Bluefriend? Bluefriend at the moment seems like a very like tactile, non-technology uh product, and at the moment I'd like to keep it that way. I think in in time it might I might get a companion app. That's something that I'm thinking about. Um so I think if I've got those broad directions of values, vision, business model, does this align? Then that does help. But it's really difficult. And I often find myself overwhelmed by the huge variety of directions that this can go.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

Yeah. I sometimes struggle with a lot of advice once upon a time. Well, still, I'm so grateful I have a lot of people in my life to give me advice in different aspects, whether it's work, personal, everything. And I remember one time I was just so overwhelmed. And I thought that if I don't listen to all these people that have made it in my eyes, like advice, yeah, then I'm doomed. Genuinely, I thought, like, I'm doomed for life. That's wow, that's how I went by. And then it would take me down to like a spiral aspect. Yeah. And then I'd lose myself. And deep down I knew that this person's advice that they're giving me is not right for me. But I would still feel nervous that, oh my God, since I'm not doing taking on their advice, then I'm not going to be successful in a way.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

I hear you.

SPEAKER_04 40:07

But then one thing that really helps me, and this is through reflection and looking up to people that are, you know, I see myself in them in a way. Is that yeah, you would never take advice from someone that you don't see yourself being in their position. So why, you know, why would you dwell on that specific advice?

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Absolutely. I think this is a really good question to ask. And I I learned something from Brene Brown about how she navigates feedback, potentially criticism as well, is do they know me as a person? Do they know my business? Do they have the experience and competence? And do they have my best interests in heart? If they don't, like if they don't meet that Venn diagram, then it's really I think it's really useful to hold less hold less tightly the opinions that other people hold. Unless they genuinely have your best interests at heart. They know you, they know the business, they've been there before. You can hold on to that feedback and the advice a little bit looser. And I think it's really helpful to not put the exact same amount of weight onto every single piece of advice. It sounds like that was a lot at the time, and I've definitely been there.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

Yeah.

unknown 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

So you also touched on earlier around the procrastination and putting yourself out there publicly. Because you know, you've got to you've got to be very vulnerable in that space. And it's bringing down walls that you have. But how did you move through that? And do you still feel scared putting yourself out there publicly?

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Yes and no, yeah. I think I think back to this idea of courage comes before confidence. You can be scared doing something. That's okay. You can be worried and things can be hard at first, and then eventually that confidence does come. For me, that confidence has not yet come for Instagram and social media and watching myself back on videos. That is really difficult for me. Where my confidence has kind of grown is in-person interactions, public speaking, pitching. It's something that I've practiced and I've done lots. I've had lots of opportunity through the Macquarie University Incubator. They've been fantastic in giving me opportunity in front of a group of people with a microphone, with a slide deck. And so my confidence has grown. So I feel okay in being vulnerable in that space, but it is the probably the the most nerve-wracking thing to put myself out there on Instagram. And I know you're putting yourself out there on Instagram as well. Uh there is a vulnerability to it and questions about how I'm going to come across on a social media platform. Am I going to be aligned to the Instagram branding or am I going to be similar to what other people do? Am I going to come across looking silly? Is it going to take lots of time to edit? So I'm just getting in my own way and not um being courageous enough, yes, to plunge into that.

SPEAKER_04 43:29

Yeah, it's a whole different world on social media. I remember that when I first put out my podcast, I remember that like two the two weeks build up to it. I I think I had a panic attack moment in a way of I'm putting myself out there. I don't can't see people's reactions to what they see about me. What are they gonna think? And then one thing that brought me back to it was that I know my vision and mission is so much higher. And I believe in what I'm doing. So I'm just going to put it out there. And there's always going to be people that might not agree with you, right? There's going to be people that are going to misunderstand you or you might not align with someone's values when you put yourself out there, right? Some people might be like, oh my God, this person's starting a podcast, another podcast. Like, you know, comments that you hear constantly, which, you know, doesn't annoy me, but it's I think the one thing that really, really helps me is that like my mission is so much higher than other people's opinion that I don't care what people think. And the people that need to know, they love it. It's for them.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

So that's awesome. I love that. I love the perspective. And you're inspiring me to create like a founder toolkit for like up-and-coming people who are trying to trying to create their own thing. I think there's a couple of like tools that we've like talked about, like putting mission over someone's opinion. Like these are all really strong reminders that I think give me a lot of like inspiration and motivation. And I think they could help a lot of people. So if you ever want to collaborate on a founder toolkit.

SPEAKER_04 45:16

Hell yeah. There we go. The collab. I just, you know, like the thing I love about people like that are founders or people that have started communities, people that have started on an entrepreneurial journey. I think you've really discover layers of yourself. And it's crazy the things that, you know, you never thought that you'd be scared of or vulnerable about just pop up. And I'm not saying like other people who don't start a business or, you know, don't do something, won't figure it out. But I just think it's you're putting yourself out there for something that may or may not even work. And it's literally a low chance that it may. And it's through putting yourself out there, trying a million things, one of it lands. And I think you need to be very strong within yourself.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:19

To be open to a lot of things in in terms of when you start start a business journey or a community or yeah. So I think that's why I'm really intrigued by people that do these things. Because it's a you're going, you're on a path that's least troubled. And a lot of people might not even get you. And especially, you know, friends or family that are not in this path. They're like, what do you like, what do you want about? Like, why can't you just enjoy your typical, you know, nine to five job or your Monday to Friday? It's it's it's really it's really interesting for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

I I like resonate with a lot of what you're saying, uh, particularly like the grit that is needed to get through the stumbles and falls. Like when things might not work, where you do try a couple of things and they don't work. And yeah, you're right. It's very unlikely to work, and that's why we pivot and adapt. I was with um I I was so scared of doing user testing on this deck, and I didn't want to show it to anyone because I thought they would criticize it. And someone offered to give feedback, and she said, I love this deck, I want to use it, I want to put it in my car, I know exactly how I'd use it, I love it, but I would never buy it for myself. I'm going, I'm sitting here going, that's the point. That's like that's why I created it. Like, this is my entire life, like, or at least the last couple of years, put into this uh idea. And then she said, but I would get it for a friend who is struggling, and I kind of completely changed my mindset. Like I learned that I needed to adapt. This is like a giftable sort of product, which was very new to me. I I've never thought about this ever. Uh, and so like, yeah, I could have continued down the get it for yourself route, and I and I might, but like, yeah, you're right. If we we we have to experiment, we have to adapt and we have to listen to what people say. I also think like I I heard you say that we need the strength. I think you're right. We do need the strength. I often don't feel feel strong sometimes. Um, and the word grid kind of comes to mind of like, despite not feeling strong, despite the setbacks, can we like consistently show up or can we take a break and then come back? For me, I've been able to take breaks and come back. And people are really proud of me. They're going, like, oh yeah, after like X amount of years, like you're still moving forward with it. I think that's all we can ask.

SPEAKER_04 48:59

I think the journey of life in general is that, you know, if you look at if you look at like a year ago from where you were today, you see improvements, right? That's when you know. When you're like doing it in the current phase and moment, you don't see the steps that you're taking and what change it will have in your life. And sometimes you may be doing reps of things that may never take you to anywhere. But I think there's a lesson also in that. So I think the best way to understand that, you know, even if you do take breaks or you need moments to reset or recharge, it actually kind of helps you in the long run because that's that's you know, you've poured it, you've poured into yourself and you can go full steam ahead. You're not gonna be like, you know, even if you do take a break and you're at this level, you're not going backwards.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 50:01

You're gonna be, you're still gonna remain at that same level. And, you know, and once you start again, your baseline has completely changed. Your baseline is something else. So I don't, I don't think, you know, taking time for yourself and pouring into your own cup is a bad thing at all.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

I love that. I I have I'm a completely different person to who I was maybe one or two years ago. I've learned about the world in a lens that I've never seen before. I thought that I was like maturing as an adult, and then I like learned about like the business world, and I was like, oh, okay, I knew nothing about how the world works. So even if this sort of falls over, right? Even if the thing that I'm working on, worst case scenario, I have to go back to maybe a full-time job. Well, I've learned so much along the way. I've learned about working with people, I've learned about creating a vision, I've learned about products, I've learned about designing, I've learned about applying psychology to a product. Like I've learned so many amazing things. I'm a much better person. And I think you're right, it stretches you and you learn about yourself. I learned that I manage money quite poorly, and I don't well, I specifically don't place enough importance on it. And so for me, like I've actively changed that and I've changed my mindset. And yeah, even if it all falls flat, I think people can still learn heaps from it.

SPEAKER_04 51:32

100%. You'll you'll have perspective that other people, you know, that had haven't put themselves out there would have. And that makes it valuable in itself because you're willing to take risks. And you know, it's not fun always playing it safe, right? Sometimes the unknown and is quite interesting.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

It's fun. It's it it it's scary. It's scary.

SPEAKER_04 51:54

It's scary. Yeah. Don't get like don't get me wrong, it is freaking scary and fun. And but like I think what comes out of it, it either will work or if it doesn't work, like that's so totally fine. But going all in to an outcome that you don't know, it's actually quite courageous. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

I often forget how much fun I have doing Bluefriend. I love it. Like it's scary. And then when I'm doing it, I love it. I just I'm I'm locked in, I'm focused, I'm managing multiple things, and I'm coming up with ideas and different ways of doing things. Um I love it.

SPEAKER_04 52:34

So I want to end things off with what would you say to someone who's sitting on an idea right now too burnt out or scared to start? What advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_02 52:50

I would start with self-compassion. That's where I'd start. The burnout sucks and it's real. And a lot of people in your position would be also struggling to start up that idea as well. And what's something like what's a step that you can take towards looking after yourself in this moment? Like, that's really important. That's a that's an initial first step. So look after yourself, first of all. Uh what's next is like if you actually have like buckets of things that you need to address in your life, be smart about it. Address those buckets that you need to do. If it's your health, if it's your work. Um but I would suggest jumping in. Hop in, have some fun. Be okay with it stuffing up, try a couple of things, break things, experiment, play in the sandpit, put things out there, get feedback from others, and get a lot of support from other people. Now, if that stuffs up and you really feel quite bad, then you can pause, you can take a break, you can come back to it, you can put it away on the shelf and come back to it when you're ready. But I think it's worth a try.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

100%. 100%. Well, thank you for being here today, Ben. Um really, really enjoyed this conversation, and I'm sure people listening to it will definitely take a lot out of this. We'll leave your details on the show notes. Give Ben a follow. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

Thank you, Maddie. It's been wonderful. It's been so good. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 54:20

Thank you.