Changing the Game
Welcome to FIFTEEN WEST's Changing the Game podcast. We are dedicated to sharing the real, human stories behind female leaders in recruitment – Founders, CEOs, and trailblazers who’ve made it to the top of their game.
Changing the Game
Changing the Game She Leads: Episode 7 The Confidence to Keep Evolving | Jenny Gladman, Founding Partner & CCO of Brightsmith
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In Episode 7 of Changing the Game She Leads, Lisa sits down with Jenny Gladman to discuss building a recruitment business authentically, balancing leadership with motherhood, and creating cultures where people genuinely thrive.
As Founding Partner & CCO of Brightsmith, Jenny shares the journey of helping build and scale the business through lockdown, growing an international team, and navigating the realities of leadership in a fast-growth environment.
What to expect:
This episode explores the realities of leadership behind the scenes, including imposter syndrome, returning to work after maternity leave, and learning to lead in a way that feels authentic rather than performative.
You’ll hear about:
- Building and scaling Brightsmith during lockdown
- Why authenticity and empathy matter in leadership
- Returning to work after maternity leave as a founder
- How Jenny’s definition of success has changed over time
A thoughtful and honest conversation for anyone navigating leadership, growth and the evolving world of recruitment.
Welcome to another episode of Changing the Game She Leads. I'm very excited today to be joined by Jen Gladman, who is the co-founder of Brightsmith. Brightsmith is an energy transition focused executive search firm based out of UK and the US. Thank you for agreeing to be a guest on Changing the Game. This is a new podcast dedicated to sharing the real human stories behind female leaders in recruitment, founders, CEOs, and trailblazers who have made it to the top of their game. Our goal is to explore not just your professional journey but the personal resilience, values, and mindset that it takes to succeed. We want to inspire the next generation of female leaders by showing what's possible and what is real.
SPEAKER_01So, Jen, thank you for joining me today. Excited to have you here. Thank you for inviting me and also thank you for doing the podcast because there hasn't been a similar podcast in this space, and I think it is very needed.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you. Well, yeah, it's been really uh amazing experience just to hear everybody's journeys. And as we say, could you just start by telling the the our listeners a little bit about you, how you got into recruitment and your journey so far?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Uh so as you said, I'm Jen. Um I'm one of three co-founders of Brightsmith. Uh, and outside of work, I'm also a mum. I have two very young children, uh, so ever juggling a home life and work life. Um, I've been in recruitment since I graduated, so some amount of time. Amazing. Um, and had some amazing experiences, um, gathered some amazing friends through the industry um and went on a decade-long journey that um took me to joining forces with my two co-founders, Adam and Tommy. Um, I actually they well, they actually set up the firm five months before I joined them. Um, and then I joined them on the first day of the UK lockdown. I don't know if we should kick a podcast off with that, but it was an unusual time, but um super exciting since then. So we're sort of six years into our journey, and um, we've grown from just the three of us, which we stayed for almost two years because of uh the time that uh everything was going on in the world. Um so we hired our first employee um back at the sort of back end of 2021, uh, and we're now just approaching 40 people. We should be 40 people in the next few weeks, I think. So incredible.
SPEAKER_00And just before we go on to Brightsmith, and what was the moment where you decided actually I want to go and run my own business?
SPEAKER_01So it was probably the step a step back from when it actually happened. Um I actually saw a career coach, and for anyone that hasn't done that, I highly recommend it. Okay. Um it was about eight years into my career, um, and it's safe to say I was kind of disenfranchised by what I was doing at S3. I have a lot to thank S3 for, um, but I'd reached the point that I knew the next step of the ladder wasn't for me. Um, so I took a bit of a step back. Um by a step back, I took a six-month sabbatical. Okay. Um, and um during or just before I went on that, actually saw a career coach, which was super, super helpful. Um, and she made me dig deep, much deeper than I expected with seeing a career coach. I think it was probably more therapy and less career coaching. Um, but to look at what was important to me as a person, um, what would I be proud to be doing, um, and what did I love doing? And I think it's fair to say that I wasn't doing many of those things in the job that I was in. Uh, so I took the sabbatical, came back, um, and at the time S3 was backing a number of ventures, um, and I ran the UK division of one of those ventures, which was a tech platform. Um, and actually that lost funding after 18 months, but it answered all of the questions that I'd been asking on do I want to run something for myself? Do I want to start something, and do I want to build a team? And the answer was yes to all of those. Um so when that finished, I did what was natural to me and got on the plane again, uh, went travelling for another quick stint and then came back. And I would say it was kind of fate that Tommy and Adam had just started the business, um, were looking for a third co-founder. Uh, and I didn't know what I was looking for, but when I went to meet them, it was quite obvious that there was a very natural fit. Uh, we had all worked together, if be it briefly in the past, um, and shared kind of true goals, values, morals, all of the things that were very important to me and business partners, and that's kind of how we ended up where we were.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. And when you were speaking to that career coach, were there any sort of qualities that you think you had that made you confident to go and do your own thing?
SPEAKER_01It taught me that I am an entrepreneur at heart, um, that I love innovating, I love building. Um, I actually love supporting people in building their careers, not necessarily from day one, um, but whatever point they join the business and being able to shape people into roles as well as kind of defining the business by those people. Um, so yeah, creating something from scratch, um, sort of looking at things from a what's the long-term vision and how do we get there, um, and then bringing a team around us to make that possible.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. And that's what you mentioned leadership and how what is your sort of leadership style in the business?
SPEAKER_01I always find this such a difficult question to answer. Um I think something I talk about frequently is leading authentically. Um, and I think it actually took me quite a while to do that. Um my journey into recruitment was one that many people in the uh industry have had of starting out their career as a rookie at S3. I I'd love to know how many people that is, but I'd say the stats are quite high. Um and my journey into leadership was one of we think you're ready to lead people, do it this way. Uh, and all of those things felt extremely unnatural and wrong to me and didn't align with my character and the way that I talk to people and the way that I try to understand things. So I would say I've kind of created my own style. I'm not sure I have the exact name for it, and there probably is one if you read the right uh leadership books. Um, but it's one of coaching people, supporting people, trying to understand what people's strengths are, but also what they fundamentally enjoy, because I believe one without the other doesn't make somebody happy and successful. Um, and then working with them on how do they get to those to achieve their goals through taking part in the right activities, but also coaching them with the things that are their strengths, their things that they lean to, um, and really working to improve on those points. So, one of leading through positivity. Um, I really believe in people being accountable for their own success, but supporting them with it. Um, and also I am still a firm believer that you need to leave from the front and be a role model for the people around you.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And you mentioned um previously, sort of in your previous career, you were sort of maybe pressured a little bit to lead like a man. I think that was a phrase that had come out. How did you sort of counteract that?
SPEAKER_01How did you sort of so yeah, it's it's it's always a tricky topic. Um and I probably that that was probably putting it in um fewer words than it deserves. Yeah. Um but I think I've only ever worked for a man. Um, so I you know, that's probably one of the things that I've actually never been fortunate enough to have uh a female role model and leader. Um I'd say I've had role models, but it very indirectly in kind of other areas of businesses. Yeah. Um and I think like to give these people credit, the the world I joined was very much a man's world at that time. Um, and that just is what it was. You know, you can't go back and change things. I joined an office of over a hundred people, there's probably five or six women in it. Um, and the pyramid above me was predominantly men. So people were giving me a playbook that had worked, and you know, it worked for those people who were were sat above me, and that was a leadership style that I felt was kind of leaning on qualities not just of a man but of a man in a commercial world, which often are like very strong qualities. Um, and I would say for anyone that knows me, uh it's not that I don't have a strong character, I have a relatively strong character. Uh, and I also grew up in a house of of men and boys. I have no um female siblings, and you know, my even my kind of cousins are uh all male, so I it was a world that I was kind of used to and comfortable with, but probably not one I'd ever sat and thought about what does it mean to me to be a leader? Um, in all honesty, I was probably far too immature to even think about those things at that moment in time. But as I started to kind of have a team and do things in a way that was the suggested way, it felt very inauthentic. Um, I really struggled to build trust and relationships with people on more than a surface level because I wasn't trying to. Um, and then I think when I took stock of actually what was important to me in building a team, those things were far more important than some of the things that had perhaps been suggested.
SPEAKER_00Just jumping back to Brightsmith and how you've um scaled the business, you've now 40 people across two continents. Um, it's very impressive. How have you hired people in terms of have you intentionally um made sure that there's a gender balance within the business and what does that mean to you?
SPEAKER_01Yes, in short, um so we are gender balanced by design. Uh one of the things actually um prior to me agreeing to to join Tommy and Adam was making sure we were aligned on those things, and we absolutely are. Um I'm always feel very proud that when it comes to any decisions around um diversity, we are always aligned. Um and I think we all hold a fundamental belief that a strong leadership team is a balanced leadership team, uh, that diversity of thought is extremely important and having different perspectives in the room, um, and also making sure that we're set up as a business for those people to succeed, and that looks a bit different for everyone, and so should it.
SPEAKER_00Is there anything specific you've sort of uh created within the business to support people?
SPEAKER_01Uh so one of our values is authenticity, um, and uh it really does run through the heart of what we do. We've set the environment up to be extremely inclusive. Um you are encouraged to be yourself, um, which is a really nice thing. Um, and I think one that people think exists in a lot of places, but actually it doesn't. And bringing your whole self to work is something that gives you that sense of comfort that allows you to succeed as you as opposed to succeeding as the work version of you, which I've always found to be quite unhealthy when you have to keep a part of you outside of the office because it doesn't make someone else feel comfortable.
SPEAKER_00And what kind of how does that actually manifest itself within the day-to-day? How does how do you get your staff to bring their whole self to work? Is it just a a theme or is it do you give like a forum?
SPEAKER_01Is there a I think it's creating that psychological safety that you know you you're not judged for things that you bring in and the language that we use and the way that we choose to communicate with people and trying to understand them better as individuals and give them that space to operate in the way that they're comfortable. I'm also not saying we get it right every time. I'm sure, I'm sure we don't, um, but that is always the goal in in how we operate, how we run meetings, how the business is structured, um, to make sure that actually you don't have to be this exact type of profile with these exact motivations to be successful here.
SPEAKER_00And just on that, in terms of, you know, a lot of um a lot of us, and I do all the time, in fact, now have you know self-doubt and imposter syndrome, and you know, what are we doing here? Um, how do you deal with that? And you know, have you can you give me some examples where you felt that or you know dealt with imposter syndrome, you know, burnout? Obviously, you mentioned being a mother, there's a lot, a lot of balls being juggled. How do you deal with all of it?
SPEAKER_01Uh I would say I'm definitely not there. Um it's still it's still something that's that's always present in new scenarios that you tackle. I like putting myself out of my comfort zone, so I actively try to do things like speaking on stage, which are not my natural, but I think it's a really good thing to do. Um but to go specifically to the imposter syndrome piece, um, I actually recently wrote about this on LinkedIn for the first time ever, probably because I'd had enough time to kind of get over it. Okay. Um, but I would say both times I went on maternity leave, I really struggled to come back, and not because I don't love what I do, I think it's pretty evident when I am talking that I absolutely love what I do. But um through both of my maternity leaves, we there or thereabouts doubled in size, which is a totally different company to come back to. So um the first time I went off, I think we were sort of six or seven people, uh, and when I came back we were 13 or 14 people, but that felt huge. Um and also when you're a founder and you haven't necessarily got an exactly defined role, which we didn't have until very recently, um I didn't have maternity cover and a role that I could step back into. The business just had to carry on without me, and we plugged gaps in various different ways. So I almost had to re-find a job, um, which was an unusual feeling. So I definitely felt I guess I don't know if out of my depth is the wrong thing because I the the the first time I came back, the company was certainly a size that was manageable. Um, but just that I'd been away and it had carried on without me, just trying to find my place. I guess I didn't feel like I had a place at the start, and that was definitely a me thing and not an anybody else thing. Um, and the second time I came back, um, I would say it wasn't quite as strong. Um, but I'd gone off and we were 16, 17 people, uh, and I came back to a team of 30, which kudos to Tommy and Adam, they'd been on an absolute hiring spree. Um, and we had some incredible people. Um, I felt the same thing when I came back. There were these amazing people that were sat there doing the work and saying we're part of Brightsmith, and I hadn't been. Uh, we'd also got um our first kind of grown-up out of a co-working office. So coming back to that was awesome. Um, but also just felt like quite a different business to the one that I'd left. Was that anything that helped you sort of reintegrate, or did you was it just time and so I think both times I kind of came back and had this view that for the first few weeks I'm gonna treat myself like an external consultant and look at the business and see where I can add value. And then when I found where I could add value, it started to feel much more comfortable. And particularly the second time, because we'd had made so many experienced hires, we, to all intents and purposes, had a business of a lot of individuals doing things in a way that was the way that they'd always worked, and so my natural role was how do we make sure when someone retains Brightsmith that they get the service that they deserve and the service that they've paid for, and an element of consistency because we were delivering, but we were delivering in slightly different ways to slightly different organizations, which is not uh the business that we want to run. Um, and I think just to elaborate kind of one layer further, and I'd say this is something for for all parents or even people that have taken time off for various different reasons, um, like returning to work generally is something that makes you feel a bit vulnerable. But when you're doing that and you've just left your six-month-old baby in the care of a total stranger, you're extremely vulnerable because your brain is totally split in half. Um, and I think the overwhelming feeling you have is that you're in the wrong place wherever you are. You're at home and you know you've left a a deal undone or you know, a piece of coaching unfinished, but you need to give your baby attention. And then um, you know, the the same vice versa. You're sat there thinking, oh, I'm gonna be late home and I might not see my child. Yeah. Um, which particularly for me going back the second time, I now don't live in London. So two days a week I don't see my kids, which is uh, you know, something that makes you feel a little bit more vulnerable. But um yeah, I think getting over it was one of those things of making sure that I had real clarity on where I would add value, how I would add value, and I made sure it fit within the parameters that I had.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I think we yeah, I totally can um relate to that just in terms of you end up sort of not doing that mother job brilliantly because you've got one eye over here and then you're at work but you're always thinking about the home life, and it's just yeah, getting that balance is I don't know anyone that's actually if they're honest with themselves, got it right. Um, but it's yeah, I think it's a choice you make, and you know, I think my uh just from my point of view, my children are now you know 17 and 18, and you know, hopefully I've shown them that you know working is ha a positive thing in the end because you've got something to look up to and uh yeah, don't think they'll ever join join recruitment, but that's another that's another story. Um so yeah, just um going back in terms of um yeah, I suppose on the personal life piece, like we all have to make compromises, as we said. Um is there any way you any advice you could give to you know new mothers who are thinking about returning to work in terms of how to how to make those compromises and how to juggle? Is there anything any advice that you would pass on to somebody having done it twice?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know if I'm qualified to give the advice, but I think the most important thing is to trust your own instincts because this looks totally different for everybody, and so should it, and also try to block out a bit of the noise. Um I found it very frustrating when I came back to work, the amount of people that asked me where my child was. Um, you know, oh who's who's looking after them? And I thought are you judging? Yeah. Um I'm sure it was coming from a well-meaning place, but it's not something I hear people asking my male colleagues when they come back to work. So um I think just making sure that you focus on you, that you do things in the way that feels right for you and your family, um, and also to set some boundaries, and maybe that comes a bit easier for me as a business owner to set those boundaries. Um but I don't think the guilt really changes in terms of you know, are people doing more than I am right now? And the answer is yes, but getting comfortable with that. So, yeah, having those boundaries, making sure that you're set up first of all to succeed at home because it is more important. Yes. And then secondly, at work. Um for me, I work a four-day week, um, and that was something that was very important to me while my children are little, um, and something that I'm very fortunate that both of my co-founders are hugely supportive of. Um, but things like that, making sure that you understand what it need to look like for you to be able to have the balance you need.
SPEAKER_00I think that's it. And I think like a lot of us sort of say, Oh no, I have to be all things rule people, I have to be in the office five days a week, and I have to do this. And actually, if you stop, it's like, no, you don't. You you actually don't. And then, you know, if you just say this is what's happening, then people will follow. And and I think, yeah, you're absolutely right. I think, you know, Sarah, my business partner, came back and, you know, we were doing three days in the office. She had a you know, one year old, and she's like, Well, why don't you work from home on a Monday and just take the pressure off? And she's like, I can't. I was like, No, you can. You are programmed, right? We've just try it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think and maybe the the the newer generation coming into work now don't necessarily have that, but we were programmed, we were in at 8 30 on the dot, five days a week. You know, if you weren't at your desk, you weren't working, but yeah, having a bit of acceptance that that's not the case and yeah, you can still be productive and do everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. Um just in terms of what does, you know, looking forward, what does success mean to you in terms of yeah, your your business and you know, sort of your life? Like what does uh what what does the next sort of five years if you look to look back um and say, yeah, that was a really successful five years, what does that look like for you?
SPEAKER_01So I think I'm quite basic when it comes to this. Um in that success genuinely for me is being happy. Um and at any point that I'm not happy, I would reassess what I'm doing. Um so to date, I've absolutely loved what I'm doing. Um I envisage that will can continue, but that for me would be the marker of success. Um, there are a lot of things from a business perspective that we'd love to achieve from a uh growing the business, expanding it. Giving a platform for more people to have amazing careers in a sector that's that's truly meaningful. But yeah, for me personally, it's just having that balance where I'm happy at work and happy at home and that my kids are also happy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, amazing. And what advice would you give a younger person starting out in recruitment? Strap yourself in. Hold on tight.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, I I actually have sat with with one of our team this week um talking about the things that I think are really important to know and understand at the very start of your career in recruitment, that lots of things will go wrong. Sometimes you think it's not your fault, but sometimes it will be at the start, but you just don't know it yet because everybody starts from a place of not knowing. So just making sure that you look at everything from a bigger picture perspective that you're always trying to learn, um, and that you really do create your own success in this game. And if I look at the the constant between high performers that I've worked with in all businesses, including Brightsmith, they all create their own success. And I think that's uh yeah, not waiting for someone else to present something to you, you you have to go there, go out there and grab it. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you know, I've we obviously recruit recruiters and we've seen a lot of from graduate upwards, and I think the most successful people also have that curiosity and um inquisitiveness, and they just want to ask questions all the time, and it's always, you know, can I learn more? Can I learn more? And and they're kind of trying to develop themselves rather than, like you say, like what are you gonna give me?
SPEAKER_01That absolutely, and that's probably one of the main qualities that I look for in interviews is people who are curious and interested in learning and developing themselves. And I don't just look at that in terms of academics or work, but in all aspects of their life, you know, are you interesting? Have you sort of gone out of your way to develop yourself as a person? And not necessarily from just uh going back to our earlier conversations, therapy or coaching, but just you know, I love interviewing people and they tell you about marathons that they've run, or um, you know, we have someone in our team who'll love me plugging this that cycled um halfway across the world, or you know, they've done really challenging things that have put themselves out, put them out of their comfort zone. Um, and I think, you know, curious about the world, about education, about um, you know, sport, psychology, whatever that might be. But I think those people are the people that learn about the sector, they get passionate about it, they really go the extra mile. It's not just a job to them, they start to become really fascinated by what they do.
SPEAKER_00It was interesting, yesterday I was talking to uh CEO of a 300-person business recruitment business, and he was we were talking about graduates and how they've changed over the last sort of few years with Chat GPT and everything, and he's like, I I don't want the people that are just putting stuff into Chat GPT and sending out buzzwords, I want the interesting people, like people, because in the future, a lot of what we do is gonna be automatic. Um but the people that are gonna win are the people that can engage on a personal level with CEOs, with clients, with you know founders, and have that interest, you know, in they're interesting and they're interested. Yeah. And he was like, that's what I look for in a per in a in a graduate when I'm hiring them, not the person that's been a whiz and done all their, you know, research on Chat GPT. It's like that's gonna be a given when we're, you know, in three or four years' time. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Totally. And actually, I I don't know how much you think about this, but my kids are really little, so even the concept of what will they do when they grow up and what other skills that are important for me to teach them, and that would be my number one, like communication, yeah, listening, being curious, asking questions, um, because yeah, a lot of the other skills are um subject to change. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Um, and just in terms of again the future, what is the legacy or impact that you want to leave in your company or the recruitment industry in general?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the recruitment industry is one I've never considered, but in my company, I think one of the things that um I would like to leave as a legacy when perhaps I I'm not there anymore, um, would be the piece that we touched on on diversity, equity, and inclusion, having a balanced business. Um, it's quite rare in recruitment. Um, and you know, I also am not blind to the fact that we've managed to hire some amazing female leaders because I am a co-founder, and I don't say that from a position of arrogance, I say it from a position of them sharing that with me. Um, but I think it is a factor of being understood and heard and having a role model, but also someone perhaps that is a bit more closely aligned to your perspective.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I hope that carries on um at all levels in the business um and all aspects of of diversity. I think this podcast is gender focused, so we've we've landed on gender, but yeah, um, making sure that the business is a place for for everybody to succeed.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. Do you it's a separate question. Do you have a mentor or a coach still?
SPEAKER_01I actually don't at the moment. Um, although this conversation is making me think I should go back to that coach. She was awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean a lot a lot of people on the podcast have said it's you know it's quite a good thing for I think and another thing for especially for women in this industry, I think there's a lot of um male networking groups, a lot of male sort of dominated networking groups, I would say, and you know, golf days and lots of things like that that people go to, but I feel that there's not that many for for for women. So I think finding like a peer group um at whatever level you are in the industry is like is gonna really help you because it's a very stressful job. Um, and there's a lot of people going through the same thing that you might be going through in a different company that might have something that they can share with you, and so just trying to find that cohort is I think is is quite a challenge for for younger people coming through. Um, but we you know, we I'm gonna plug our um uh level up program. We do uh um a not-for-profit um led by Olivia Reed, who it's like confidence coaching um course for you know, kind of up and coming people that are not managers yet, but kind of want to be, but maybe don't have that voice um in the meetings, but want to be able to be, you know, better at business development or better at speaking up in meetings or whatever it might be. And then, you know, there's eight of them on each of the cohorts, and they do a six-month course, and then they have that, they have their own sort of yeah, kind of group that they can go go on their journey with. I think things like that um in the industry, you know, there should be more of them, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And actually, I'm going straight to a dinner from here with four girls from S3. Oh, I think so we all do totally different things now, some of them still in recruitment and some not, but they were probably the the peer group that I well I created, we created together as opposed to being put together. Um but I have two groups of women that I've um made friends with through recruitment. Um and we are all extremely supportive of one another, but yeah, very much on a friendship level, um, but also on a how on earth did you do that level? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think I think that's one good thing about recruitment is people love to talk, people love to share things. So I think that is it is easy to do. You just need somebody to bring you all together, and yeah, I think it's a problem shared is a problem halved, definitely, especially in this in this industry. Um just just to wrap up, because I'm conscious of time, but um I've got a bit of a quick fire round just to get to know you a little bit better. Um coffee or wine?
SPEAKER_01Definitely coffee.
SPEAKER_00Heels or trainers? Definitely trainers. Excel or whiteboard?
SPEAKER_01Uh can I say both?
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01Whiteboard if you push me. I do love a drawing. Yeah. Uh night owl or early riser. Early riser.
SPEAKER_00You have to be. Yes, 445. Really? Wow. Um inbox at zero or organized chaos? Inbox at zero. Is it where I'm falling down, I think. Um's inbox at zero, I'm the opposite. Uh office buzz or work from home?
SPEAKER_01Both. I actually do two days in and two days from home, and it's perfect balance. Um, book or podcast? Both. Okay. Again. Uh books for fiction. Um, I really love um like psychology podcasts. Nice.
SPEAKER_00Anyone you'd recommend?
SPEAKER_01Uh actually, as I got the train and walked across to the studio, I was listening to the Mel Robbins podcast. Um, and she had an amazing Harvard professor talking about building trust. Um, so things like that where you can, you know, it comes into your day-to-day life, but very much from a business perspective, making sure that it ties in with that authenticity piece, um, being open, sharing some of your truths and and building trust with the people that you work with are really important. Amazing.
SPEAKER_00Um, when something goes wrong, who's the first person you'll call?
SPEAKER_01It depends what goes wrong, but normally my partner, um, sometimes my mum.
SPEAKER_00Scale fast or build slow? Scale fast. Nice. Legacy or lifestyle? Legacy. 100%. That's amazing. Thank you so much. Um, it's been really great to get to know you. I think there's a lot of um wisdom and authenticity that um people can take away from the podcast today. So, Jen, thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_01And thank you for having me. Um, and yeah, I'm excited to listen to more episodes. I actually should have mentioned that I took a lot of inspiration from some of the other brilliant women you've had on the show. So yeah, well done. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. Amazing.