STU GRIMSON | Ice Guardians Ep 33

Brett Hull is in studio hanging out with guest host Garth Butcher and former NHL forward Stu Grimson. Butchy asks Grimmer about his road to the NHL, and the guys talk about some of the best guys they fought against on the ice. Hully starts reminiscing about the old Norris division and the guys talk about how it became the Chuck Norris division. Grimmer talks about the respect all of the enforcers had for each other, and Butchy talks about the one time Vancouver was able to beat the Edmonton Oilers in the 80s. Hully asks Grimmer about his post playing days, including his time working with the players' union.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:33

Welcome back to another unbelievable episode of Ice Guardians with my guest host, Darth Butcher. Our pal Kelly Chase is indisposed right now, and hopefully he's feeling better. And our special guest, Stu Grimson, one of the toughest men to ever play in the NHL. Welcome. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

Good to be here. Thanks for, I've been hearing all about this, Ice Guardians. It's good to it's good to be here. What I love most about Ice Guardians, you found this really cool. I think they call it a euphemism, Butch. It's not goon, it's not tough guy, it's not cop. It's like you've softened, you've given it some distinction, the Ice Guardian, right? I like that.

SPEAKER_07 1:21

Yeah, well, you you remember Chaser did the uh documentary Ice Guardians and uh uh typical little sly move by by Chaser. He he bought the kind of naming, he bought the naming rights, hijacked the intellectual property. Yeah, and when uh when he bought this uh warehouse and turned it into the studio, he he we had been talking about doing a podcast, and I you know I just said, yeah, sure, yeah, sure. And uh he goes, Let's do it. And I got the name Ice Guardians, so that's what we're gonna call it. And I went, well, that's that's genius.

SPEAKER_09 1:56

So we're and a lot of the theme is good in two students, but like it's great, I think, for the people to meet fellows like yourself and Cam Johnson, all these like it it's always the guys, whatever word you want to use for them, enforcers, tough guys, yeah, team guys, like they're they're the guys that are the best guys, yeah. Like Chaser calls you guys, and then the other 3 a.m. guys, and then the other thing I think people don't recognize, they also tend to be the smartest guys. Absolutely. And we talk, I mean, you got an education afterwards, and one like a guy like Chris. Harvard, yeah, yeah, that's not bad. Harvard Long. It's right next to Tom Collegiate in Regina. So it, you know, like it really is whether that's a miscreance perception or not, it certainly has never been at least myself and guys who didn't necessarily play your role, my guys like Brett who appreciate it.

SPEAKER_07 2:53

It's very cool. Back when we like were really young, it was like cement head. Oh, exactly. Exactly. Cement head butcher. It's like, hold on, no, really, really actually a smart guy. You want to see all the businesses he owns and runs?

SPEAKER_05 3:07

You know, I I think I think that comes from because I hear that, you know, I hear that a lot. It's it's very common in our sport, but you know, when you're wired that way, you know, you're not necessarily gift gifted with all the talents in the world. You don't have the best shot, you don't have the best, you know, you know, you don't see the ice in the way that a hull does or somebody like that. But you've got enough skill to play the game, but you find this niche, right? You've got to have the perception, the understanding, there's a niche to be played here. And when you put yourself in that niche, which is you're you're you're the consummate team guy, right? Game changers. You're you're you're glue in the room. You end up being the guy that has the key the keenest sense of what the group needs at that moment. And sometimes that's getting into a scrape, or maybe sometimes that's standing up in the middle of the room and chewing people a new asshole.

SPEAKER_09 3:57

Well, you've had it's sometimes being smart enough to recognize what will get you and keep you in the NH. That's the point.

SPEAKER_07 4:03

We've talked about it, we've talked about it with almost every guest. And it's there, you have to offer something to the group. Yeah, yeah, and it's not you know, you can only have so many 50 goal scorers or you know, 100 assist guys. You you have to have people that make room and uh change the flow of a game if it's not going the way, yeah. But then in the room, the people have to be held accountable not only for what they're doing on the ice, but off the ice as well. And uh, you know, that's it's a there's an art to it.

SPEAKER_05 4:39

Yeah, you know, I think one of the one of the most unique things about our sport, and and it still exists today, but it was much more relevant when the three of us played. It was that moment in a game where you know, your team's struggling, they're flat, they're down a goal or two, and whoever the guy is in my role, whether it's you, me, chaser, whoever, a light goes off inside that person's head and he goes, We need something right now. We're flat, we're out of it, we need something right now. You go out and you get into a scrape with somebody like you on the other side, it amazes me. Three times in five, seven times in ten, the game turns it that way. Right. You go out, you put yourself in harm's way, you get into a scrape, it changes the energy on your bench, it changes the energy from your coach's point of view, and and the 20,000 people in the building sure know something happened. And it amazes me how much it will it can turn a game on its ear. Yeah, but you know, again, it it speaks to that point, and there's somebody who has uh a really keen sense of what the team needs that's willing to kind of put himself into that void and make a difference.

SPEAKER_09 5:52

So and and that guy, the coach never had to tell because he recognized himself.

SPEAKER_05 5:57

Oh no, that guy's oh, the coach tell you that? Yeah, no, yeah, like it because that's the last thing I wanted to hear. Like, I never wanted a coach in my ear, hey Stu, we could really use one right now. No, I was hypersensitive to it, so I'm doing it before he ever before it ever occurs to the guy behind the bench.

SPEAKER_09 6:12

For some of us, for some of those coaches, if they said it to us, we better turn around and fought them.

SPEAKER_07 6:18

There's and we have talked about that, and and Chaser, he brings up Joel Quenville, yeah, and he goes, Joel was astutely aware of the whole game, yeah, including including that piece of it. Yes, and uh he would bring them in and go, look at I don't know anything about this. I that wasn't my game, I don't know it. But he goes, You guys have to come to me and and let me know, right? Like turn around and go, coach, it's time. And yeah, and he goes, I I'll get that. And um because I played in a completely different role, and I would see that there were coaches that had no clue.

SPEAKER_10 7:09

Right.

SPEAKER_07 7:10

And it'd be like at the end of the game and you'd get two shifts or less maybe sometimes, yeah, and it'd be like go out there. And like, hold on, what do you mean go out there now, right? And almost embarrassingly so. And uh I I hated that. Yeah, you know, I would rather say send out the the good players because they're they're like if we're out there and all of a sudden it's you know, Grimson and Kosher and and Primo with Norwood and whoever on defense, if he throws me and Adam Oates out there, like you guys aren't gonna just sit there and beat us up. No, right? Like the game's over, probably, because he's doing that and it's 7-2 or whatever. And it's like, and then he goes and embarrasses the guys who it's like, yeah, I couldn't even imagine going out and trying to fight after sitting on the bench for two and a half hours. Yeah, your feet are numb and sore, and oh my god, and I hated coaches like that.

SPEAKER_09 8:10

Yeah, and Grimmer, you we talked a little bit earlier about you know the path and staying in the NHL and what you got to do to get there, things like that. One of the things on the shows that I've seen that I've I found really interesting, when we had Cam Johnson on there a while back, is that path to the NHL. Yeah, because of the guys like Bret Hall's friends, my friends, and I'm talking in in the early teenage years, Kelly Chase's, yourselves. I'm assuming, certainly Cam Janssen, when I heard his story about how he made it, because he loved hockey because he watched Bret Hall play, didn't play anything like him, but I think they'd be shocked that we made that that time to the NHL and spent as much time as we did. So maybe tell your your path a little bit and uh give us the right reader's digest version from growing up as a young kid and just like like I just said I was I was gonna play the NHL. What I didn't realize is I was no good. Yeah, I didn't try out for a team till I was 10. I was the last player on the team as a test. And I this is reminding me because this the other night I had dinner with Candace Chase, Kelly's sister, yeah, in Toronto. And she had no idea, she goes, You must have been good. I go, I was no good. Either was I told her of my journey to Adam and Pee-Wee and Bantam and in Regina and Regina. I watched, you know, Dennis Soghuck and Clark Gillies. Well, they're just playing the NHL, so I think I'll do that too, right?

SPEAKER_07 9:37

And I'm and I'm son of Bobby Hall, one of the greatest ever. I never even thought about the NHL. No, I like I just played it because we were up in Canada and that's just what we did. Yeah, you know, we played hockey. I was what else are you gonna do? Throw snowballs?

SPEAKER_05 9:52

I mean, I mean that it was the very way I I got involved. My I was five years of age. We're living in a little town called Osoyas, British Columbia, in the heart of the Okanaga.

SPEAKER_07 10:01

Absolutely. Southern part of the valley.

SPEAKER_05 10:03

That's gorgeous. Summertime. And my mom and dad came to me, they said, Hey, your your buddies are all playing organized hockey this year. Do you wanna do you wanna play? We didn't even have a rink in Osoyas. We had to go to uh, I think we had to go to Oliver. Oliver or Solar. Oliver. It was Oliver.

SPEAKER_07 10:18

I was gonna say Orival, but that's because you know I played junior in Penticton.

SPEAKER_05 10:21

Oliver's where we had a rink. So that's that's where it started up. And like you, Butch, like some years I was House League, other years I might make the travel team. It was kind of a mix of 50-50. Were you always big like you were? Always big, always big, had kind of an aggressive, maybe mean kind of goofy streak, right? You know, the wires are prone to touching from time to time. Um, so I I think as you kind of graduate up, um I I don't think I really understood that I that a NHL career was within my grasp until I got to, until I made the Regina Pats. Like for me, again, some travel years, some some house league years, but I was big enough and had enough skill that um, you know, tier two hockey, I was gonna play when I got to 16 years of age. I had kind of a decision to make. Um don't we all in Canada at 16? But it was BCJHL playing about 90 miles away from my hometown in Camloops, British Columbia for the Kelowna back in the Buckaroos, the Buckaroos. The Buckaroos. The BCJHL. And that's where we kind of decided I was gonna take a run at junior hockey. But I was listed by the Regina Pats. I was on their um, I was on their protected list. That's right, because it changed.

SPEAKER_09 11:43

You may not even remember this, but you came on our bus as a young as a young guy. Oh, I remember a road trip to Trotsible. Trotsi was your captain. Trotsi was your captain. Oh, I was. I thought Trotsi was the captain. No, you weren't, okay. Trotsi should have been captain because he's a lot better behaved than I was. But he had my basement in Regina. Jerry Kotz was what a great guy.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

Can I tell you, this is a good, this is worth telling, um, to actually be listed by the Regina Pats. Here's how that happened. So I'm 16 years of age, maybe 15 years of age. Uh, me and my buddies living in Camloops, British Columbia, and me and my buddies are walking down Main Street, uh, Camel's. We're gonna go see, uh, we're gonna see a movie right there on the corner of Maine, and I can't remember what the street was. We we see like the small group of, we called them rig pigs back then. There were guys like they were in their mid-20s, early 20s, and they worked the drill rigs in and around Camelos. But they come into town on the weekend and they hoop it up, they'd spend their, you know, their their wages, and they just they'd get goofy. So we spot these guys and we both ended up on the same corner right in front of Main Street. And my buddies and I were all wearing our Sahali uh junior high jackets, our football jackets. I played football back then too, not surprisingly. So we got our Sahali leather football jackets on, and these rig pigs walk up and they go, Oh yeah, we're Sahali. What's the Sahali thing? What's our football team? Wow, Sahali sucks. So they're all they're all pretty lit up, right? So there's three of them faced off with three of my buddies, and I'm kind of on the back. I step in, I part the shoulders of my two buddies, and the guy that's making the most noise out of these rig pigs, I fucking tattooed him right in the face. Pop two teeth out of his face, he goes reeling back. We end up in this big brawl in front of the Kamloops movie theater. Would you believe? At that moment in time, Glenn Dirk is the head scout of the Regina Pats.

SPEAKER_09 13:46

Great guy.

SPEAKER_05 13:47

Great guy. God rest his soul. He passed away a little less than a year ago.

SPEAKER_09 13:52

Lovely family, great guy.

SPEAKER_05 13:53

Glenn Dirk is driving by the movie theater, Main Street, Camloops, British Columbia. He sees me in this 25, 26 something going at it, and he's like, that's the Grimson boy. He's on our list. He can play. I think he can play.

SPEAKER_07 14:11

Okay, is that is Dirk like Robert related to Robert Dirk that we played with here in St. Louis? I think they were no more's a long distance, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:20

Like I think it was Uncle Uncle Nephew. I think it was uncle-nephew or distant cousin. Robert Dirk was a great guy.

SPEAKER_09 14:26

Well, and and and Mr. Dirk, as I called him, because he was a scout for Regina when I when I was there. And he scouted. And he went on to New Jersey, and he was hugely like Niedemeyer. Niedemeyer was his guy, right? Like he made some terrific picks. Lou Labarello credited him to a lot of New Jersey success. Yeah, he's a really good hockey man.

SPEAKER_07 14:48

Well, let's take uh our first break, and we'll be back with Ice Guardians and Stu Grimson and my pal Garth Butcher. We'll be back. I'm Brad Hall. I'm Kelly Chase.

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SPEAKER_05 17:34

Yeah, he was still going at it. Um, in fact, uh, he was more pissed than I thought he was, and the fight was less over than I thought it was. Back then, you never tied your shoes up, right? You never tied around squares. So I lost the shoe as I'm fighting this guy. I double back after I thought the fight was over. I bend over, put my shoe on. He's got these big fucking steel-toed boots. Cut my lip and it's on again. There we go. I get back. It's it's after hours. My parents are asleep when I get back. But I wake up in the morning, my dad comes down, it's you know, it's the weekend. I just do get out there and mow the lawn. Right. I wake up, I got this big fat lip, it's split. What the hell happened to you? And I tell him the story. Haven't I haven't I haven't I given you enough? Haven't I given you enough? You never, never turn your back on a guy. Like I thought I was gonna get in shit for fighting. You never turn your back on a guy until the fight until he's until he's horizontal.

SPEAKER_08 18:34

You're a police officer father. But police officer. 31 years of the Royal Canadian Mounted Force. This is the advice I get for my dad.

SPEAKER_07 18:42

My dad, he goes, When you hit him, you better keep hitting him until he can't hit you.

SPEAKER_09 18:46

Make sure he's done. Make sure he's done. Yeah, well, you you talked about you know, second the fight was over. I had a few of those with Proby. I thought it did pretty good. The fight's over. It was like, I uh I didn't know as he was just getting started. I was exhausted.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

So Proby, uh Proby was he was a he was a late bloomer in that respect. He came on strong at the end of the fight.

SPEAKER_07 19:03

And then you know, Chaser likes to talk about uh the guys he never wanted to fight because if you if you got them, it was a seven-game series. Oh god, like they was like, oh, okay, now now you gotta fight him again and again and again. Dave Brown.

SPEAKER_05 19:18

Right. Dave Brown was the epitome of the the best thing you could do for yourself, your career, and I learned this the hard way, was to beat Brownie, but the worst thing to live with after was the four to your point, the four times you had to fight him after that. You better off just lose in the first one. Like just take your lumps early. I mean, the man was just unrelenting, unbelievable. Who who are some of the guys on the sides, man?

SPEAKER_07 19:45

Well, like we talked about you guys, all are like who are some of your nemesis, like like there was you'd get in the odd one with some guy, but there was guys that like you guys that played for years, and like it was like always Proby for me.

SPEAKER_05 20:02

Yeah, yeah. I fought Proby. I fought Proby. We fought 14 times over the course of our careers. Like, there was nobody I fought more than Proby, and the same is true of him. God rest his soul. Again, another another guy we lost too early, but yes, um, he Proby was a bad Proby was a handful. He was a good fighter. He didn't hit like some of the other guys did. Uh Brownie, Koch, those guys hit like a Twister. I only fought Twister once. We grew up together, so we kind of knew each other. But um, those guys hit like mules care, right? They were unbelievable. Brownie had a he had a left hand that hit like a thundercloud. He was just like he was he was troubled. And he had this you remember him in warm-ups, right? He just had this thousand-yard stare. He's looking like up through you, through the building, through, you know, through a tree outside. And Brownie just had this thousand-yard stare that was just like, you know, here we go. Here we go. Tough man, tough, tough man, right? Like Ben Wilson. Yeah, Ben was tough. I I Ben was gone, you would have played against him. Ben was gone by the time I broke in, but I understand you you could hit Ben as hard as you want to, and we weren't phasing him.

SPEAKER_09 21:15

He had a he had a snap factor, and you just didn't know what it was going. Kind of like Shannon away, right? It's like here's a guy who's a good player, yeah, good, and you're just really figuring out what's he want to do tonight? Is he is he just gonna play good or is he gonna kill somebody? Yeah, is he gonna you know snap and fight Darien Hatcher?

SPEAKER_07 21:33

And we were talking we talked about that too. Like, you know, you there was those guys, you know, Verbeek, Shanahan, talk it, yeah, you know, 50 goals, 40 goals, uh, and fight anyone that that they like f fight anyone.

SPEAKER_11 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 21:50

Brennan Shanahan fought Darien Hatcher every game, I think.

SPEAKER_05 21:52

Yeah. I mean, that Darien Hatcher is a big human being. You know what I always admired about those guys? The ha the hardest thing that I Had to deal with in my role was overinvesting in my role. Like I had this, you never want to lose. You don't want to be humiliated in front of your teammates and these 20,000 people. So I I overinvested in that part of the game and making sure that I was ready when the gloves came off. But it happens once every three games, four games, even if you're busy. And it only happens for 30, 45 seconds.

SPEAKER_07 22:27

Yeah, because a lot of guys are they're toughen, but they're they have no balance. Like that's what Chaser used to say, right? Yeah. Like Peluso. He would, he go, I'm not fighting you. You're gonna fall down and I'm gonna have to go to the penalty box. I'm not even gonna be able to beat you up.

SPEAKER_05 22:41

But that was that was my point. Like guys like Proby, though, you know, they had that, they struck that balance between they were ready to go when when they needed to go, but they could play the game, like they could, they could play and and and tear down 15 minutes a night to you know 18 minutes a night. Some of these guys. I always I always admired that. Me too. I overinvested in the physical part of it, you know, to my detriment. Still had a good long career, no regrets, but that was where some of these other guys were were different for me in that respect.

SPEAKER_07 23:14

We talked to Joey Kosher uh the other day, and we we brought up Bobby Probert, yeah, and you know, we started talking about the Hall of Fame. And, you know, it it was always okay, you know, 500 goals, thousand points, you know, five Stanley Cups, whatever their criteria kind of was. And then I don't know, it started to morph a little bit. And then all of a sudden now, like Yee Carbano got in and it's like, okay, obviously a uh really great player. Yeah, but if you were gonna define Carbon, it would be a defensive player. Yeah, and so now it's like, okay, now we're going to we're gonna acknowledge that these guys that maybe didn't get 500 goals or whatever, yeah, well, they were still hall of fame type guys and players. Yeah. So we talked to Joey and he goes, okay, now what's the next? And I go, I've said it for years now that there needs to be guys. And we decided that Bob Probert should be the first guy, kind of in that niche or category, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, he'd be the guy to me that you would put in the Hall of Fame. Yeah. If you're gonna go enforcer type guy, Ice Guardian type guy, he would be the guy, wouldn't you? Or yeah, yeah. Like there was like John Ferguson back in the day, you know, many cup wins. Uh, you know, but I think Proby would be your inaugural guy. Oh, I think so.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

Do you agree with that? Oh, I do. Um, I mean, I and I I I agree with you, and I would look at it in the following way, Holly. Think of a guy, I mean, Proby was a 20 goal scorer. 30 something one year, 29, 30. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 25:06

And he played with Iserman and Gerard Gallant. What a line that was.

SPEAKER_05 25:09

Proby was in the all-star game. Yes, he was. Second, third ish year in the game. Um, but can can you can you can you go back in time? Like there are guys who were rather remarkable in this respect, like Clark Gillies. The book on Gillies was Let the Man Sleep, but he was a 28 plus goal scorer most every year he played. The point I'm making is there's just I don't think we've ever seen a package as complete if you want to bring in the physical element as Proby. Like who was that gifted, like just in terms of the ability to play? He was a better player. He was never less than a third line player. He's a first, he was a top six guy for much of his career. And nobody wanted to fight him. Well, and that's you don't find that those, you know, that skill set, that package in just any player.

SPEAKER_07 25:58

And like for guys like me, I and I'm sure the rest of the team as well. We loved having him on Iserman's line.

SPEAKER_11 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 26:07

Because he was he was playing hockey.

SPEAKER_10 26:09

Right.

SPEAKER_07 26:09

And it's like you you just wish you look back there and see Butchie, and he's like, Oh, we're down a few. Like, uh, I'm gonna do something. And then he would give it, you know, because he'd be out there against defending Iserman, yeah, and then oh, well, there's Bob. I'm gonna I'm gonna do something, and then the whole bench would just be going, Oh no, Butchie, what are you doing? Yeah, and then all of a sudden you'd wake up the sleeping giant, and it'd be like, Oh, upset.

SPEAKER_09 26:39

I think part of his value wasn't necessarily the the fights he had, it was the fact that whatever he was on the ice, whoever was on the ice for the opposing team knew he was on the ice. Yeah, they were neutralized and maybe slight, yeah, maybe changing their game slightly. Yeah, slightly. So that's that's if you could only know the noise going on between the ears of the other people.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

That's a value, right?

SPEAKER_09 27:03

100%.

SPEAKER_05 27:04

Yeah, another way of looking at it too is yes, there's awareness when you're out there against Proby. You have to be because he's he's big, he's he's trouble, but you know, it's the space he got too, right? You know, as he's as he's driving to the net and Steve's got the puck high in the zone or something like that. Like you're gonna cross trick. You kind of got him, you kind of don't want to got him, you know. It's like you're you're walking that balance if you know if you're not brave heart out there.

SPEAKER_09 27:30

Time time and space was is the thing, yeah. And time and space is like I said, I wasn't very good. And when I was 16, I went to the SGHL and I fought everybody in sight. Yeah, and I got called up for the Pats as a 16-year-old. We went to end up calling the Memorial Cup. I fought every 20-year-old I could, and I got a phone call that June when I'm no good. And it was from Bill Waters' agency, not Bill Waters himself, but I think the guy's name was Quinn. He goes, 'We'd like to represent you.' And I go, Why? Yeah, why represent you? And they go, What did I get? Am I getting arrested? And I remember, I remember. And I said, Yeah, what did I do? And so and it was, I he goes, Oh, we think you got a chance to get drafted next year. And I go, Where? The army, so I am so naive. I don't know, which is the greatest thing, right? But the but here's what here's the hilarious part. So this this is June, season's over. Go through the first, whatever it is, 20 games of this of the season, whatever the central scouting ratings came out, hockey news, yeah, is rated fourth in the world. You were fourth? Hold on in the world.

SPEAKER_07 28:37

Okay, in the I went 10th only a little bit. Did you misspeak by saying the world? The world.

SPEAKER_09 28:43

No, because uh a guy named Yuri Dudichek was rated. Dudichek, I remember he was rated third. Uh Dale Howard Chuck, and I forget who else might have been Ronnie Francis, something like that. And it was like fourth. And apparently I drank too much beer, so I dropped to 10th overall. But you're still in the still in the mix.

SPEAKER_07 29:06

It's incredible.

SPEAKER_05 29:09

But that's the way it starts for a lot of us, right? When you demonstrate you have the physical, you know, willingness to just engage and do that, especially in the era we grew up in. Right, yeah, it makes a difference. That role had value, so you could you could earn uh that role, but it was up to you. And you you did a great job of this, Butch. I mean, you were, you know, you were an elite defender for much of your career. Right. And the physical element was really the gateway for you, right? Like that's how a lot of us got in. And it's up to you after that. Make yourself a player or don't make yourself a player. Here's your opportunity.

SPEAKER_09 29:44

And I don't know if I did it on purpose, but my draft year, I had something like the first half of the year as a defenseman, yeah, 20 points, 200 plus minutes. Yeah, the last half of the year I got 66 more points and like 80 minutes. Yeah, and because it was established, and I and I as you guys I know you won't argue with me on this one, not the best skater or stick handler, but I had an extra half a second. I had an extra second, you got a little more space I could play on the power play, and that was essentially it. I got you know, a lot of the guys didn't want to come too close, yeah, and you can't blame them either.

SPEAKER_07 30:20

Carried a heavy titan, you know, and and you got a you know, we had Barrett Jackman on and he talked about when he was in uh also Regina, right? And uh and then he I can't remember where he said he was playing, and maybe the minors his first year. And they go, Well, you're you know, you're not you're not you're not playing like Barrett Jackman. He goes, Okay, and so he went out and he's he fought like everyone and he had like 200 minutes in penalties, and and uh they they called him and said, Okay, I I think you maybe you took that the wrong way. And he goes, We always we want you to play as well. And he goes, Well, it's too late now because everyone that looks on that sheet sees Barrett Jackman with 200 penalty minutes, yeah. They're coming. Yeah, and he goes, Like, it's too late, right? It's your role whether you want it or not, right if you've invested enough in it, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 31:25

And jax is was beloved in Regina, like coach. And it's like sadly, he was my dad's favorite Regina Pat. I I came in second place, I think, to that. And but I know guys, like I talked to Drew Caller the other night, and he had Jax as a assistant coach or whatever in Regina, like as a kid going into Regina, I think he's a 16-year-old.

unknown 31:45

Right.

SPEAKER_09 31:46

They loved him, and he was the toughest guy ever. But Jax could play. Yeah, and that's and that again is that guy, right? Yeah, valuable, valuable player.

SPEAKER_07 31:55

And there's there's a guy that you look at him and he scared you. Yeah, he he's got that like I'm gonna kill you look like like I'm the guy who shaves my head from full metal jacket. That's you know, he's got those eyes in him, and uh but you know, another hell of a player, tough guy who's just a sweetheart of a human being.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

Yeah, and it's like you know what I will say about that role, uh, the one advantage it has. It's a hard role to play, but the one advantage it had, I mean, if things weren't going well and the club needed a goal, you're the guy that can manufacture that. But it's not an easy thing to do, and it was not an every night thing necessarily. But for me, again, if the club is flat, if we're you know, if we're behind or if it's late in the game and we're message sending, whatever the circumstance was, like if it could be a back-to-back, I could fight. Like I always, I could almost always get into a scrape, and a scrape had value, right? If a fight had value, win or lose, you were doing something on the team's behalf. That was an advantage. Like there was a way to change physical energy in a game, and it didn't involve scoring a goal necessarily, you know. Like that's that's the one advantage we in this group had. If you had that recognition, you know, and you could make a living out of it.

SPEAKER_07 33:13

The and the other thing I loved that you guys could do was you didn't necessarily have to get into a fight, but you could render another tough guy almost neuter him because you would you would almost embarrass him in the corner or against the wall or whatever, and there's no way he wanted to fight you. And right everyone in the ring could see that there was a dominant alpha man out there, yeah, and the other guy, and some of those things were career-ending. Yeah, like it, like that would to me, like if I didn't score for a couple games, like I know, I wasn't worried about me like, oh, there's another guy you know coming in and he's gonna score. Yeah, right. But like if if a guy loses a couple fights in a row, yeah, there's always someone down in the minors.

SPEAKER_10 34:07

That's right, right.

SPEAKER_07 34:08

And so let's get into that when we come back after this break from Ice Guardians.

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SPEAKER_02 36:52

Hold on a second.

SPEAKER_06 36:54

I got it.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Let's go. Our town, our team, our builder. Brighton's in homes are everywhere you want to live.

SPEAKER_07 37:13

Welcome back. Brad Hull, Garth Butcher, Stu Grimson. You know, before we left, we were talking about uh there's so many unbelievable uh talented guys that we talk about. Like they didn't get 50 goals. They didn't, you know, but they were such an integral part of every team. And what year do you guys think it was when like there was obviously tough guys, you know, you had the Broad Street bullies and the Boston Bruins in the early 70s. But like Terry O'Reilly and they they were players, Bobby Clark, Soleski, and I don't know about Dave Schultz or whatever. I can't remember how great a player, if any, he was, but it was more of a team toughness thing. And then all of a sudden it was there are designated tough guys.

SPEAKER_05 38:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 38:12

And more than one.

SPEAKER_11 38:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:14

I think I think uh I think the 90s were kind of an era where it was like there was like there was almost it wasn't, you know, we were what 26, 28 teams-ish around.

SPEAKER_07 38:29

The original 21.

SPEAKER_05 38:31

Yeah. But it wasn't every team, but most teams had two guys in this role for the most part. I started to notice that around the early 90s, maybe even into the late 90s.

SPEAKER_07 38:42

And our division, like I Butchy can talk about the Pacific, but yeah. The Norris division. But oh my god, the Chuck Norris division.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

The Chuck Norris division was I mean, me and Peluso. It was Basil McCrae and Shane Shirley in Minnesota. It was Proby, McKay, kosher in Detroit, Wendell, Ty. Um who else am I missing from? Oh, Bomber was in in Toronto as well. That was the old uh now it's the Central, but back then it was the Norris division. But I mean, every night was you had your dance card phone.

SPEAKER_07 39:17

Yeah, and you and you talk about it, and we had Wendell on. And as tough as Wendell was, he was like, every night we were just hoping it was a close game. Because as soon as it kind of got out of hand, it was Bedlam.

SPEAKER_08 39:32

It was crazy.

SPEAKER_07 39:33

And then, like, then you'd get guys like and I love them to death, but Twister and Chaser, they would just get bored. And then, like the one night in Chicago, they they decided they were gonna try to beat up Roanick and Goulet. And Adam Olds and I are on the bench going, What are you idiots doing? I mean, okay, so you're gonna take on Goulet and Roanick, and you know, Jeremy, you know, he could hold his own a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

Oh, yeah, he was goofy enough.

SPEAKER_07 40:02

And he just probably deserved a little bit. He probably did something stupid, but Michelle Goulet, I'm sitting there going, Oh boy.

SPEAKER_05 40:09

Have some respect for the game at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_07 40:11

How about respect for me? Because Brian Sutter's just dumb enough to throw me back out there now. I mean, and it was in Chicago Stadium, and I'm like, oh, this is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 40:23

That's the part of the game I hated the most. Whenever, whenever the other side was loaded with lunatics like you, but it got to a three-goal, four-goal spread late in the game. It was just like, please. Like we all got we all feel like we got to do something, but the game's over. It ain't fun, it ain't fun at that moment.

SPEAKER_07 40:42

But remember those teams like Chicago, like Troy Murray, God bless his soul, was tough. Dirk Graham was tougher than nails.

SPEAKER_09 40:51

I mean, tough.

SPEAKER_07 40:52

They had Manson and uh Al Secorp. Bobby McGill was there. Yeah, well, Al was gone by the time I I mean, I may have played against him. Because remember, he was he turned, he was one of those first fitness guys, and he tore his stomach muscle doing a triathlon. And he kind of was never the same.

SPEAKER_09 41:15

But that was a line in the old chapel, seacorn, and so and that was a line that was kind of like, okay, what what are we gonna do now? Is is yeah, are we getting in a fight? Or do I have to watch that little bugger spin around as well? We're just gonna thread a great pass to C Corn. Like right, it was just they were a line that was hard to play against because of the of all of the things they brought to the table. They could play it anyway brought to the table.

SPEAKER_07 41:40

And then Shelley also, he was like just mean, yeah, mean and dirty, like Pronger. I mean, oh my lord. You know, but it was like it was like I look back at myself and I'm like, like I just sit on the bench and I was like I was in awe of all of you because it was like it was so far in the left field from my abilities or my mental makeup as well. I want to go out there and hug and kiss you guys. Like I I came out to play hockey and have a good time, like and I was fine. You could slash me and cross-check me, and I'll take it and and and and still hang in there, but there was no chance that I was ever gonna know how to fight, never gotten a fight in my life. Yeah, and it's like, but luckily, I guess I played a way where no one really wanted, like I didn't do anything to make anyone mad enough to want to fight me.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

Yeah. Well, and you were kind of um, you know, certain rare exceptions, but you were kind of you were off limits for guys that did what we did. You were off limits. Like nobody's really back then, as as goofy as the game was, as physical as it was, you know, there were certain for me, you monkeyed with the guys that were kind of in your weight class, the guys that were in your category. You know, you just really didn't bother with that.

SPEAKER_07 43:09

But we talked about mouth, we talked about little mouthpiece guys that were like, you know, you you know, you're super heavyweight to me. You're 6'6, you're you're I played a 250. Yeah, you're a you're a large human being, right? And and that's a level in its own, but then you but you get guys like Chaser, yeah, like he's tough as anyone, but he's still like no one would give a second thought if he fought Roanick. No, yeah, right, because it's not like Stu Grimson grabbing Roanick and oh okay, sorry. But Chaser was like, but no one understood, like he was meaner and tougher, and his dad, the gold gloves boxer in Canada taught him he was like the best fighter I ever seen. Like I tell him, I go, you may not have felt like you. Like you got beat a lot or not a lot. But I watched you fight for I don't know how many years. And I I saw you kind of get tossed around by a cortic one night. And other than that, you didn't win every fight, but you never lost.

SPEAKER_09 44:14

Well, especially when you consider the reach factor. And just because you get cut doesn't mean you lost. And that was the difference to me in junior and pro. In in junior, I'd laugh before half the fights. Yeah. I'd pull a guy in and hammer him. Like whereas pro, I want to pull the guy in, but his arms are this much longer than mine, and he's a man and he's got man strength holding you out now. Oh dear. Right. What's going to happen now?

SPEAKER_05 44:39

It's a whole nother level.

SPEAKER_07 44:40

Like that John Kordack, did you did you ever fight him? I fought cords a couple of times.

SPEAKER_05 44:44

Yeah. He was he was a strong human being. He's a really strong guy. I think he was benching over 400 pounds by the time he liked he hit his own. That's like Twister would do. Now there was there was some supplements involved. There were some supplements involved there. Can I just, while we're on it, I don't want to miss the opportunity to say this. There were guys that were not true heavyweights by their physical dimensions, like Shane Chirla, even Rob Ray to some degree. Chaser, and I would put Chaser at the top of this class. Chaser fought guys my size, and he gave me five inches. He gave me 35 more or more pounds. He fought guys my size routinely. Yeah, he loved it, but he was really good at it too. Because he was never chaser, right? He rarely got embarrassed. Um, he held his own. Like Chaser, you know, tagged me with several. He was never gonna demolish a guy my size, but he he was he was in there blow for blow. Yeah, I agree. And I'll tell you what, I as looking at him from a distance, well, if you call this a distance, right? Looking at him that way, I had immense respect for that man back then. And I said it then, I'll say it today, but I say it for a different reason. Um, there's nobody tougher to me that played the game than that man. Like I had that sense of him then, right? But now observing what he's going through post-hockey, tougher. That, you know, that that that overshadows everything I felt for him as a player, the way he is carrying himself today through all that he's going through. So, you know, just a brief acknowledgement for co-host.

SPEAKER_09 46:28

Many of our friends and colleagues, but also my friends who didn't play hockey have not to do it, but know that Chase and I are buddies, and it's yeah, how's your buddy? And for three years now, I've been saying if anybody's gonna win this fight, it's him.

SPEAKER_10 46:42

Yeah, that's what he says.

SPEAKER_09 46:44

If he's not picked the wrong guy, he's a fighter.

SPEAKER_07 46:46

Yeah, like in that may have finally met its match.

SPEAKER_05 46:49

I sure hold it.

SPEAKER_07 46:50

May have finally met its match. You know, though you talk about a guy like him, and uh, we had Billy Bush on earlier, yeah, and huge uh you know, New York guy, Rangers, Islanders. Uh he's he's a huge Rangers fan, but obviously he he was a big admirer of the Islanders. And uh uh we we talked about like like those guys back then with like Stan Jonathan, oh yeah, little guy, right? And then uh George McPhee, Dennis Polanic. Oh Dennis Polonic, yeah. Like those guys are Chaser type guys, like that George McPhee was as tough as anyone, right? Kim, remember Kim Claxon? Yeah, he played with my dad in Winnipeg, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:33

He um Bobby Nystrom wasn't really that bad.

SPEAKER_09 47:37

But he but he no, I thought he was a big he's a tough, he's a tough guy, but he's like like Clarkey, like who was another, you know, didn't have to very often, didn't want to, right, and wanted to play and contribute. And obviously, both those two examples, like they did. They didn't need tough guys, they had Billy Smith on the net. He was the toughest guy on their team. That's right, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_07 48:02

Like you think of Wendell Clark. Wendell Clark gave gave Proby all he could handle. Oh, Wendell. That's if you ever are feel down and you know, you just put on Wendell Clark fights, and it's like, whoa, hey, I mean, it is it is just awesome.

SPEAKER_05 48:20

We were boys. What is Wendell? Wendell doesn't go six feet, does he? No, he's five. Six feet, he's barely six feet. He's five'11. Yeah, and back then we were 17 years of age. We were he and I are the same age, same draft year, and all that. But I fought Wendell, and again, like six inches. Easy, yeah. Then maybe more 30 pounds, 25, 30 pounds. I hit him so hard, square on the button, one night in Saskatoon, vagina pads versus the blades. I hit him so hard, dropped him to his knees. Would you believe before I could load up another one? He was back on his feet, like giving me all I could handle, and I'm I'm backpedaling. Like, you know, like he at a moment like that, when you're six inches taller than the other guy, 30 pounds heavier, you're going, I can't believe how tough the guy at the end of my sleeve is, you know.

SPEAKER_07 49:09

He never held on. He was like a battleship, one gun going after another and going forward all the time, right?

SPEAKER_05 49:16

Toronto, LA in the playoffs that one year, he and Marty. I mean, he gave Marty a good dressing down. And Marty's a tough guy. Marty's a big human guy. Big, strong, tough guy. Big tough 6'3, 6'4, 2. I'd say Marty's 6'2, 6'3. Yeah, and he was 235. A fire hydrant at that length.

SPEAKER_07 49:36

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And like just like from the neck up, just he's like you, just nasty. Like there's no filter from what comes out of your mouth.

SPEAKER_09 49:50

I mean, I thought you were about to say, what a nice guy. Like, that's our oh, super nice guy.

SPEAKER_07 49:56

But like when it came to the game and just being like a verbal assassin.

SPEAKER_09 50:02

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that he's one of the guys I used to have to fight in Edmonton. Yeah. Instead of Sammy.

SPEAKER_07 50:08

How about that team? Right. Samenko, yeah, Jackson, McClellan.

SPEAKER_09 50:13

Yeah, McClellan and I went at all time too. It is like, so you're like you had an option. Play against Gretz and Curry, right? Lots of times Sammy, sometimes Hunter, or McCullen's line. All three nasty buggers that they were. Like or Marty or or Book, Bookaboo. Yeah, right. You know what I mean? They were like, okay, do I want to get beat up tonight, or would I like to be minus five? I have a choice here.

SPEAKER_07 50:43

Especially back when the when you were on the Canucks and you guys.

SPEAKER_09 50:47

We weren't good. We weren't good. There's one night there, we're finally gonna beat like he played them eight times back in those days. And then we just got to go over to Calgary, who wasn't very good or tough either. The next night. We're literally, we were literally winning after the second period in the call scene in Eventon. And it was like, oh my god, like we're gonna finally beat him. Like we're gonna win this game. It's unbelievable. And as we were as we were in in between periods coming out the door to you know flex your stick, like all you could hear from their locker room was rock music and laughter. Because we weren't so we're beating them and we're we're done. And it's Johnny Garrett was a net, and Richard Border was our number one. Johnny was our backup. Johnny, you know, both I love both of those guys. And and we're we're actually winning. And I'm not on the ice, of course, but it's it's 3-2 with you know 12 seconds to go face off on our zone. And we're we're winning, we're beating the Eventon Oilers, who are unbelievable at this time. Yeah, and we win the draw. Lars Lindgren drills it right in right past Johnny Garrett. Couldn't he couldn't make that shot again in 50 years if he tried? It's a tremendous shot. You know, instead of maybe wrapping around the boards, he he just like because of panic. He was just panicking, like here's a veteran guy who's like so like we're gonna be empty oilers, like and it's like boom, and like we're just going, oh my god, that just that just happened. And it's just like they were so good, like they were so good, but they were so tough. And you talk about guys knowing their role and playing their role and playing both roles, and it like the whole team was made up of that kind of makeup, and then you got and then you got Fierzy in the net. Like Paul, like Paul Coffee should have been minus five, and the game was still zero zero three, yeah. Well, now he's no he's plus three in the next 10 minutes, right? Because Furzy would just shut the door and you know, like that. And I mean, we'd be out shooting them like crazy, and you know, Koff come wheeling behind the net and give it up, and and then and then of course Koff would end up with four points because he was, I mean, he was so fast and so terrific. Like between him, Bracey's great dude, and and he's a great man. He's a great man. Actually, congratulations to Koff. He won Man of the Year. Yeah, yeah. Man of the year, where?

SPEAKER_07 53:13

In for the uh how much did he beat me by?

SPEAKER_09 53:20

Man of the year. Haven't you won that yet? Have you won that yet?

SPEAKER_07 53:24

I don't know, but with that being said, we're gonna take a break and we'll be right back.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

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SPEAKER_06 54:11

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SPEAKER_05 55:50

Well, you know, as as much fun as I had playing the game, I gotta tell you, maybe it's just the stage in life I'm at, Holly. And maybe you guys can speak to this for the moment. I'm having more fun now than I ever did when I played. It's a ball.

SPEAKER_07 56:00

Yeah, we don't have to wake up and go to practice.

SPEAKER_05 56:02

Exactly. And I don't have, I don't have no coaches meetings. I don't have two guys my size on the other side of the ledger looking to take my head off at the neck. So um, when you kind of make your living that way for a long time and you realize how hard that is, I mean, getting ready to play, to do hand-to-hand combat with somebody your size on skates um takes a lot out of you. I I really do. I I love where I'm at. But I went back to school after I retired. In the maybe the second half of my career, I got really interested in all things NHL Players Association. Like I was a rep when I was in Chicago, um, you know, Anaheim, LA for really the second half of my career. And I I really kind of liked how that side of the business operated. And I felt pretty comfortable in that environment. So I started a conversation with Bob Goodnow, and it was really to join up and become a you know a staff member of the union after I was done. And for that reason, you know, I thought, hey, I'll finish off my undergraduate degree. I ended up earning a law degree at the same time because I, you know, saw some other, I saw some other players kind of go that route, and it ended up opening some doors for them. So um I did that, uh, got a law degree. I I was admitted to practice in the state of Tennessee. That was kind of where I retired when I when I was all done playing the game. And then um, you know, I did. I worked for the union for a couple of years. That kind of went sideways during the good now Saskin fallout and the you know, the morph to a salary cap world.

SPEAKER_07 57:36

Did you see anything like on the dirty or what do you you know, like they call it in you know, the US politics, the swamp? Did you see any of that kind of stuff where it's it was like well, not above board?

SPEAKER_05 57:50

Not well, I mean, you know, the one thing I will share, the um CD part of it, let me back up a step, like no question about it. The living and working in for the for the union in Toronto of all places, I mean it's the Mecca of hockey, right? Like it's a super politically charged environment, like the whole business of you know, interacting with the league when you're with the union. But um, you know, I I did you you guys would probably have been aware of this back around that time, but Ted Saskin ultimately hired me to go work for to come work for the Players Association back then. So I'm up there, I mean, maybe six, eight months a year into my into my stint with them. And uh a group of players had kind of they were after Ted. They were trying to take him out of the seat because he had he the the group that hired him then didn't do it by the letter of the constitution. So long story short, I ended up finding out something um a a former player ended up saying in an interview. I found it really peculiar. You know, I I was talking with some players over email about Ted Saskin and saying some things, you know, that were kind of derogatory about him. But Ted Saskin called me out of out of nowhere the next day to ask me about it. And he said, I just thought that was more than a coincidence, you know. So I read that article and it became aware to me, like players don't say stuff like that unless there's truth to it. Like players just don't sound off. And being a former player, I'm like, I think this guy's saying Ted's doing something, he's accessing our private emails so that he could keep himself in power and he's trying to put out this so he can buy it so he can be in the know so he can short circuit all this movement that's against him. And so Ted was out of town when that article came out. He came back two days later, after I read this article, I barreled into his office. I said, Hey, you gotta come back clean with me. He's the guy that hired me to be there. But players don't say this because it's not true, they don't say it for just the sake of it. Did this happen? And he basically admitted to me that that that's what had happened. He had some others had access to the private server, the server of uh, you know, was the players' the players' emails, right? And he's in there reading private messages so that he could keep himself entrenched in power. So, you know, I basically I became a whistleblower. I I I told the board, hey, this is what's going on. Long story short, they ended up firing Saskins soon after. But it was, you know, to your point, it was it was an incredibly politically charged and CD time in this whole transition from good. Right, 100% started all the yeah, there was a lot of shenanigans going on. That goes back to Butch's era.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:00

Yeah, um I was one of the original Eagleson ousters when it wasn't cool. I mean, in back in those times, the mid-80s, yeah, I was arguing and fighting with my own teammates who Al Eagleson represented. Right. After what he did, my own defense partner. Like I like I'd fight and I'm going, what he's a crook, he's he's bad. Like right, and so oh no, no, no. Like it was kind of that old the ultimate power leads to the ultimate corruption. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:26

Well, what he did to Bobby Orr. Absolutely. It's the worst thing in the history of sports, as far as I'm saying.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:33

Yeah, yeah. No, I know. It's just it was just, and to me, it was so obvious, like to me, and it was like he he he wasn't representing the players like a player who had some intelligence and and is a savvy would ask him a question in front of the team, and he he just put them down and berate them and call them who the fuck are you asking me? And like you're sitting there going, and so that didn't work in my mind, you know what I mean? And it was so I mean I wasn't even player rep and I flew myself to Florida to go after him. And my my final line after asking the question three times was actually, and I didn't even know you at the time, Holly. Was so what you're telling me is supplemental pension is Bobby Hull. My pension, you gave me Bobby Hull's pension, and that's what I said. I just the name came out of the blue, and you and I were close at the time or and no answer, right? No, well, no, and he, but even behind the scenes, the guys, you know, the they were still trying to and players too, and and real players, like the guys who were on the board, they're real guys, and I don't know if players just didn't say much in those days, or they just didn't want it to be true. Yeah, you would have thought Ted Lindsay would have brought everybody well, or they wanted to get in management and they wanted to get into that. And I mean, that same weekend, I I watched Al Eagleson get on uh the uh Chicago owner's boat, the Blackhawk, right? And roll off into the sunset as as we were players were all sitting on the Blackhawk boat, yeah. The Blackhawk, right? Uh Mr. Wirts. And it was like, so oh hang on, who are you working for? And and it was to me, it it just seemed so obvious to me, but yeah, but I didn't have, I mean, I was probably too young and not good enough to be stirring up the pot that I was. And I think for the lots of the guys that hung in there with them the longest time, they were thinking of their post-hockey careers. Yeah, I think they're a lot of that instead of thinking of the guys, right? Right. And probably a lot of that. So in the end, it certainly worked out for the players, and I was proud to fight for the players. And then I did become player rep eventually.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:42

I'm glad to see the the the guys today have a good pension.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:46

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:47

I mean it makes ours look stupid, but absolutely.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:52

Oh, we gave up we gave up in that 86, I believe, agreement for uh we were fighting for free agency and we gave up we gave up free agency. So I was started quite young, you know, I played underage and whatnot, and I qualified for that what we thought was 250 grand. Well, it's 250 grand if it compounds to this until you're age 55, right? So that was the value to me when I completed my 400 games under that formula was about 18,000 Canadian. Yeah, so we gave up free agency for five years for 18,000 Canadian. And players let it happen. That's it's our fault, the players' fault up till that.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:33

And that'll go back to like you are two of the smartest guys that that I know that have played. There's a lot of smart guys, you know, Adam Oates being one, and but I would imagine that 97% of the NHL players have no clue about the business acumen that goes that deep.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:53

Yeah, you know, they can balance their checkbook, but I mean that when they when it comes to pension stuff, it's like uh I think that's probably true of really a lot of the other major sports, but I, you know, I'll speak to our culture, and you know, this probably grows more out of you and I aren't that far apart, but I almost feel like you know, you you tap into a different generation than I do in some respects. But I think the the explanation to me is the same. It's not that we're not savvy as a group, I think we're we're humble, like growing up on the prairies of Canada, a lot of us, you know, most of us grow up very trusting, most of us very humble. Most of us just, you know, and people that take advantage of trustworthy behavior. And honestly, uh Butch can speak to this, but I'll bet it's not Eagleson's like the substance of what he's saying didn't bother you. It's that the fact that he's belittling people. That's the thing that gets your antenna twitching, going, hey, what I'm hearing, the tone of what I'm hearing, that just doesn't sit well. You know, like I mean, I got believe that's what gets you to to to step out and to step up.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:04

Absolutely. I'll tell a quick a quick story on that, which was this was even after the fact when I was started going after him or against was uh uh we signed uh Perry Peterson in Vancouver Cam Neely you know infamous Camilly trade and Pete Pete's a great guy and but he after his shoulder surgery and whatnot he wasn't the same guy he just had cancer in the shoulder and and uh he's still a good player for for years after that but we brought up talent eagles in our players meetings like he he was kind enough to come meet us in Buffalo after pregame meal all we want to do is go to bed yeah the guys okay wrap this up like the mentality in those days right and so we brought up uh Barry Peterson who signed a large contract when he came large for those days and and he was a guy on Dougie Litster myself and Barry Peterson would talk the business end of it all the time and we're all in agreement about Eagleson. So Barry Peterson said well listen um Al do you think do you think salary disclosure would be a way to help raise as a player's salaries because Dougie Litster and I had salary disclosure with each other. Right he have a better year than me and he'd get more money than me and then I have a better year than him and I'd get more money than him we knew exactly what each other was making and and Al Eagleson's response to Barry Peterson was oh is that right Pete do you want everybody in the world to know that you make more money than Wayne Gretzky that won't be embarrassing you want that in the press you want everybody to know what a joke it is. Metch Wayne would absolutely Wayne would and that was the exact comments out of the thing like and embarrassed him and did that and it was it was a joke as we all know seller disclosure was a huge part absolutely of players starting to get radical change reasonable pay at least at that time.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:01

Yeah yeah of question yeah well I'll tell you what it's been uh this is one of the best podcasts uh oh you don't have you say that to all you don't I bet he does he's not snowing me first of all I couldn't snow either on YouTube but it's been a a pleasure Stu and we we have to do it again because I know there's way more stuff we could talk about.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:29

Oh there's stuff oh there's stuff so it's uh stuff begets stuff and so we're glad to be back we're starting to think that we we should and it's hard a little bit but we we want to bring on uh groups where we could all you know talk about like things like the PA and yeah and how the game has evolved into where it is today and yeah how how much like there's so much of the game I dislike today but there's so much I love about the game today. Yeah and uh you know we can get into things like that and and with smart intelligent guys uh that have uh really good opinions you guys are a part of that so thank you so much and uh can't thank you enough for watching Ice Guardians and uh until next time from the Window World Studios presented by Cyclins Cancer Audio take care everybody