EP 12 | The Truth About Being a Doctor

In this episode, we have an honest conversation about the reality of being a doctor, from the demanding journey of medical school to the pressures, burnout, and expectations that come with the profession.

We explore the financial realities, the lack of mentorship, and why many doctors feel unprepared or choose to step away from the career altogether. We also talk about choosing medicine for the right reasons and what anyone considering this path should reflect on before committing to it.

This episode is a reminder that behind every profession is a human story, and in medicine, that story is often more complex than it seems.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Medicine is not a transferable skill. It is not. It's really because as as doctors, what else do we need about it?

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Do you really bother imagine what else?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Now you've left the career. What else do you know nothing about politics or math? We don't know anything about math. Anything you literally you don't know anything about anything. Yeah, which is so sad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

That's why you find you find doctors chilling with doctors, with fellow doctors.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Because you nobody else will even that it's at the last that's why for me, honestly, I always recommend to people like before you even go to medical school, is please be very sure that this is actually the career you want. And for you to be able to do that, if you can actually take time and go maybe intern for doctor, or actually look, you know, if you can hang around doctors, ask as many questions as you can. Assalamu alaikum and welcome back to another episode of the Cultured Voices Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Fatima Mohammed, and you guys, I know I took a long, long break, but trust me, I really, really deserved it and I really needed it. So welcome back, and I hope you guys have enjoyed your break, but I'm also hoping that you are ready for another season of the podcast, inshallah. Today I am actually talking to one of the people that I've known for quite a while. And in this episode, I'm actually really, really excited about because we'll be speaking about what it takes to become a doctor and you know, like the the real scenes, like the behind the scenes between like behind the like you know, the white coat and the actual titles. Okay. Tell us how you go how you're doing, and maybe if you can introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Okay, so for introduction, um, my name is Dr. Abdullahi Okash. Um senior medical officer. I've been practicing for the past five years. Um, and I'm so honored to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Oh mashallah. Actually, I am also I am more with you. So much so. Because we've been planning this, I think, from the time I started the podcast. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, we've always been talking about it. But at least busy timings, but alhamdulillah. Um, I'm very happy that we're here. So we're just going to start with um, I think you already mentioned that he's a medical doctor and he's been in the field for quite a while now. So I the the whole point of this episode is just for us to understand what being a doctor actually takes. So if you can take us back to like maybe what inspired you to become a medical doctor or what is like, you know, the story behind that.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Uh okay, so um, so obviously I grew up here in Kenya. Yeah, spent all my life in, you know, primary school, high school, just the usual. And um, when I was done with um with high school, I managed to get a job at uh some, you know, Hawala.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Yeah. The money transfer, what's it called?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Transfer, Forex Exchange Bureau, whatever. I've worked there for, I think before I made the decision was I was working there for at least four months in. So I was like, okay, I've done the eight, four system and yet to do the other four. And I was like, I can't, you know, um stay here. I don't see my life ending in this place. I wasn't um I wasn't too happy with being a bank teller or you know, calling people to come pick their money and stuff because obviously when you're starting, you start with those. Yeah. So um one day I just made up a decision, you know, I need to, you know, uh study. But I it was it wasn't something inspirational. There's nothing that really happened in my life or to a loved one or anything of that sort for me to reach that decision. It was more of a casual decision. I was like, what can I do? I wasn't good in physics, so engineering was out of the picture.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Um, not argumentative, so out of the picture as well. So I said the only thing that makes sense is you know studying medicine. I had this idea and then I talked to my dad about it, and I was like, you know, the other way, it's it should have been the other way around.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Should have been my dad convincing me to go into medical school.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Oh wow, it wasn't?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

It wasn't. So it was me going to him to seek advice. But then I was like, knowing myself and the amount of social life I had in Nairobi growing up, with all these friends and and everything, I did not see myself doing medicine in Kenya. So one day, one time, I'm walking home from job, and then a friend of mine, uh, I met a friend of mine who we finished high school with. So I told him, What is your plan? What plans do you have? He says, Um, I'm planning to do engineering, and I'm actually at the moment trying to get um a letter of acceptance or, you know, getting an admission letter to the university. And I was like, okay, where are you planning to do that? He said, Um I have my siblings in Ukraine. I'm planning to do engineering in Ukraine. And I was like, okay, do they have medic medicine, you know, courses and stuff? He's like, yeah, even both my siblings, his sister. They were doing medicine at the time. And he's like, it's so easy, you just have to get your documents, we send, you get a letter of invitation, you get your visa, and in no time you're out of, you know, on your way to the university and stuff. I was like, okay, it's that easy, yeah. And then I went back to work, Googled the universities there, blah, blah, blah. Shared the information again with my dad, and he was like, you know what? Um, we're gonna do that, but let me look for someone. I know a friend of mine whose son also studies medicine in um in uh Ukraine. So we got hold of the guy, we and that's how it happened. That's how I ended up there, and I did my medicine.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

That's incredible. Wait, so when you were actually like um thinking about the fact that, you know, like you maybe you were not good at physics and um that's why engineering was out of the picture. Did you actually sit down and like you know, um make that decision uh intentionally?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah, I did. I did make it intentionally because I was thinking I think my second best thing would have been to become a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Oh, yeah, yeah, I can see that. You can see that. Yeah, I think it actually you can't be. I'm very patient, but you're also very patient. I'm very patient, yeah, yeah. So it takes patience to become a teacher.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

It does, it does, it does. And I used to think that uh, you know, they are very helpful, they shape you, they who you become, you know. So I was like, the only other thing that makes sense after medicine would be to become a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Out of the topic back. Do you remember any of your teachers?

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yeah, I do. I do, I do. I do remember my teachers from primary school, let alone.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

I actually remember.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Even though I'm not in contact with them.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

So I remember one teacher called Teacher Margaret. Uh-huh. And then in university, I remember my Chinese teacher actually. That's the only teachers that actually like come to mind. Yeah. Yeah. But they it's very interesting. Okay, let me share my what made me actually go to medical school.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Um, for me, when I was younger, there was a time I had a random weird episode, asthmatic episode. And it wasn't really asthma because I didn't really have asthma. Like, I've never had asthma. But then I had a weird episode of the time. Like uh, I think I was like 12 years old or something. Like I couldn't breathe for like a few minutes. And then we ended up going to Karen Hospital. Oh my God. And when we went to Karen Hospital, like now there's a doctor there, I don't remember his name actually, but there was a doctor there who ended up seeing me, and he was the nicest man. And I was just so intrigued by this man and how, like, you know, what kind of career he's doing. So I just started asking him questions. And I was always a curious child. So I was always asking him questions. I was like, okay, what do you do? What is this? Like, how did you get here? Like, how did you actually um uh become a doctor and all of that good stuff? So he was just telling me after that we started like um content contacting each other for a few months, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

And at this time, what's what uh how old were you?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

I was 12. I was 12. I was told you was old. It was right before I went to high school, actually. So by and by so by the time I was going to high school, I already kind of like, and obviously, you know, like this high and mighty doctors, and it's all this the best career, you know, like that also got into my head a little bit. Sad, for sad, right? And we'll get to that, inshallah. But obviously, so the whole thing, and obviously my mom was like super happy. She's like, Oh my goodness, that's amazing, and I like that you're actually interested. But I was honestly really interested in it, like, and the interest came on my own. Yeah, so that doctor really inspired me, and I ended up like trying to figure out researching what I really needed to become a doctor. So by the time um I was in high school, I actually didn't take physics because I was already I was already aware that you don't need physics to go into medical school. And a lot of people actually think that you need all three sciences.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

No, not really.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Which is not really, even though there are I think there are some um countries and some um maybe um I'm not really so sure, but maybe there's some places who need it, but I know I know of um Romania. Yeah, yeah. I think there's some places that really require all three sciences. But at the time, like I I was aware that I didn't really need physics and I wasn't a huge fan of physics, anyways. Yeah, so I ended up dropping it. I only took like the two. So yeah, that's one of the like I don't think I've ever told this.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Now that we are just having a conversation, um, just a follow-up question.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah, you studied where and oh yes, I think I already mentioned this uh on the episode uh on the podcast, but I I went to China and I studied in Wuhan University, yeah. And everybody who hears Wuhan, oh, it's a city that went to like had corona, yes. That's where COVID came from. Yes, that's where the COVID came from. But yeah, that's where I studied. And actually No, why why why China? Why China? Why China? It was just also really random. Like I think the same exact story that you have. Like I was looking for medical school, uh, we had heard of Indonesia and um China, and then there's a family friend that my mom knew whose son was going to Wuhan University. So we ended up contacting like some people there, and I ended up getting the admission in Wuhan University. Yeah, very similar stories. That's good. Yeah. Okay. So another question that I had is um uh life in uni. How's life in uni as a medical student?

SPEAKER_01 10:54

It's hectic. Just exams, never-ending exams, test books. And um, I don't know about you guys. Us we had a daily grading system. So uh we do have lectures, yeah, but you go to classes, you are divided into groups. Um, each group consists of at least 12 students, maximum 13 students. And then each and every teacher has a register of these 13 students. So when you go to class, you get asked questions. You're not going to be taught anything. The lectures are there for you to be taught. There's a uh school website where you log in and uh you you read your topics, you know which topic you have tomorrow. Like let's say if you have let's say um uh anything related to cardiology, let's say you have myocardial infarction or something, um, or coronary artery disease, whatever. So you study in depth, you start from the definition all the way to the prognosis from signs and symptoms.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

So every time you come into class, this is like you have your questions.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

I love it. And and it's not like an open book questions. You close all your books. You're told stand up, you know, like the way we used to do in uh Duxie.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

They tell you, okay, uh Fatima, please stand up, stand up, and then they ask you questions. When they ask you questions, so they grade you depending on how you answered. Maybe you might be asked the definition. The next person will be asked signs and symptoms. So the highest grade you can get is five for that class, the lowest you can get is two. So if you get two, that means you have to repeat that topic. You have to look for a specific date where they do rework classes. So you have to be there and do those rework classes. The least you can get is three. Three is just average, average, yeah. Yeah, four is good, five is perfect. So, um, so we used to have that. So you know, and the attend attendance was a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, you can never not go through. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

You can never not go through.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

And how many were you like in a class?

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Thirteen, twelve.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Like the whole class?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

No, no, no, no. We we were we were we were over two hundred, I think. Wow, and they did that, like all yeah, that's amazing system. Yeah, so Ukraine is well known for its universities. In one city, you can find three or four medical universities in just one city. So plenty of students used to come there from different walks of life. Um, India, Azerbaijan, Nigeria, Kenya, Somalia, anywhere, anywhere, Egypt.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Same by the in in China as well. Like we had a vast um collection of of like different countries and nationalities in China.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

So uh at the same time, there were a lot of challenges um because it's a whole new environment. Yeah you're so used to really good weather, fresh food. All that I'm saying, Ukraine doesn't have fresh food.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

No, Katam. Like when by the once you leave Kenya, yeah, is when you actually realize how good we have.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

People say you only miss Kenya when you're out of it, that's true. But anyway, so there are a lot of challenges, and including the language. Um, as much as uh we were studying an English medium, you still had to clack patients because most of these old age patients were um only speaking Russian.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah, but they in Ukraine they speak Russian.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Same by the even as we had the the younger generation speak Ukrainian. I think it's a fairly new language, I don't know. Okay, but uh the older generation Russian, so you have to clack the patient and same by the even us.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Um I don't know if it's the same, maybe I'll ask that, but even as we we also do the same thing after, especially when you go to fourth year, yeah, that's when you start actually like going to the hospital and doing your rounds. So by that time you have to be able to your Chinese better be really good. But and by the second year, how do we do HSK? We did HSK. How how how good is your Chinese? Now I feel like I've forgotten a little bit, but it's still okay. From a scale of one to ten, uh degrade it? I see I would say five.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Five, huh? Yeah, I would say that's good. At least you can't get this.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

How's your Russian?

SPEAKER_01 15:15

I think uh I would say the same five, six.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Because I think the longer you you you're out of it, yeah, and by the way it's been nearly ten years since I've been. I think this will be like my tenth year, because I graduated in 2016. You know, you're telling people your age. Yeah, it's okay. It is what it is. It is what it is. Okay, so another thing. Yeah, good. Uh, I wanted to ask you, how did you cope with the pressure, you know, like the endless studying, um, the emotional exhaustion? I don't think uh people realize how it really takes a lot from you. Why do you think a lot of like doctors are bold headed? Just a quick joke, but then come on, because it's it's tiring. Nothing like, oh my goodness, it's really mentally exhausting. How did you cope with that?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

I think for me, um But the PS he doesn't have a bold head, is it? Uh okay, okay. A few a few more years until I visit Turkey. So anyway, yeah, anyway. So, um, what was I saying? Yeah, you're asking me about copy mechanism. I would say, are you talking about now my professional life or not now, like during when you were studying. Okay. I didn't have a social life, to be honest. I actually from my first year of med school until my fifth year, I had a very small phone. This one, uh what is it called? The the small one. The one that kabambe. I had kabambe. Honestly speaking, until fifth year. What is it called? Nokia 3310. No, not 3310, is it's is later. It's old. Oh, okay. Like those bottomers. The one that has a light.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Oh, yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

I had that until my fifth year of medicine. How were you communicating with your parents?

unknown 16:59

Did you?

SPEAKER_01 17:00

I had I had um uh Skype. I had my laptop with me. Oh, okay. So I would call them. I used to download Viber. That's no, it's recent, by the way. I graduated.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

That's what I was shocked because I remember you were quite recent.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah, you were behind. I graduate I graduated in 2018. But you see, that's what I I mean. Like I didn't have a social life. All my lectures, everything was in my computer. I would call my parents from that laptop, and that's it. Good boy. Yeah. Until now, the reason why I got a new phone in the fifth year, towards actually the fifth year, there was a friend of mine who came to Ukraine. Um, he didn't come for study purposes. Of course, people come for different reasons, and him was um I would say transit in the sense that you know I think we know what you mean. You know what I mean. So he said, When I'm going, these people will take my phone away from me because they don't want to be traced back to them. So um the minute the the day he gave me the phone, my phone switched off. Um the kabambe. The kabambe switched off. Oh, it wasn't the guy. I'm daddy. I had enough. I had enough. Was this your last year? Yes, that was gonna last year.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

That's when I got a smartphone.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Dude, that was yeah, kudos to you, man.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

So at least that is uh what uh so you were really a good student.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, I was, I was out. But if if you are if you are less than that, please don't go into medicine, right? Honestly, because I think well, like I think people really don't understand how much it really takes.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

It is, it is it really takes a lot so exhausting, yeah, and uh, you know, and you don't like the fact that you're away from your parents, away from your family, and uh yeah, yeah. You have to figure out life on your own. Really, which also shapes you. It does, it does, it does, it does shape you. It does uh you become much more responsible. Um because I feel like you were literally just dip into the yeah, it's it's okay. At the end of the day, you as long as you're on top of your class here, you make sure you attend all your lectures, you attend all your you know classes.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Were you ever coming back for holidays?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yes, but not every time. Okay, not every time. I would come maybe this year, next year I'd skip, I'll stay there. And the and the weather was extreme.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Oh, yeah, same here, same in Wuhan as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Summer I didn't like. I don't mind in winter. Honestly speaking, I don't mind winter because at least winter you can dress. You can put in your jacket, yeah. You have heaters at you know, but summer is so hot and humid, you have to go to the park together.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

You feel like your face is burning. I swear to God. But how I coped, yeah. Good thing with um us is because uh we had a lot of like I had a lot of close friends who we were always like, you know, uh looking out for each other, who were always like talking, we're always going out sometimes, just to you know keep the social life going. So I think that's one of the things that really, really helped me cope. Because other than that, like you it was very easy for you to be uh very overwhelmed. I know because a lot of people by they dropped out during medical school.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, you that's why uh you need you need really good friends.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, you do. Okay, um, so were you actually mentally ready for that? Do you think like you were mentally ready before you were?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

No, not really, not really. But when it came, at least just the same way as you said I had I also had friends there. Um majority of my classmates were Indians, so we didn't have so many Africans in my, you know. Uh the only I I made quite a few friends who are very close. We used to study together, we'll go to classes together in the morning and everything. We used to do basically everything together.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, I think for me it was quite quite the same as well. Like it wasn't really too overwhelming while in medical school, but one thing I was not mentally prepared for is real life after uni. Yeah, like when we came back to Kenya and the things that was waiting for us, that's one thing I was super, super, super unprepared for. Because you don't really know, like you know, even the fact that we have to do internship and then um no, first you start with pre-internship, exactly. Like, I didn't we didn't know any of that. I wish I we were mentally prepared because at least when we were if we knew of that information, even while in medical school, I think it would really help.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. Yeah, um, I think what we really lacked mostly there when when studying as uh okay, I wouldn't say studying outside, but as a student, life as a student is much more different. Because initially I thought because we were there, we were not getting enough hands on skill.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

I think we were in a bubble. Honestly, for me, I think I was just in a bubble. I didn't really we were just into books reading, you know, like because honestly, in real life, like as a real like actual doctor in the medical field, things are really, really different. Different. Yeah, it really are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Things are different. And I think maybe because we lacked this, what really helped me um is the fact that I was like, okay, I'm lacking hands-on skill. I don't have this thing. Yeah. So when I start internship, I'll make sure at any rotation I'm in, I get to, you know, do these things. Yeah. Under supervision, of course. Of course. And not at uh the patient's risk. Because people will think. But you still have to learn any. You have to learn because at the end of the day, you it will reach a point where you're on your own with such a patient. You need to be able to manage that. To manage it on your own. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

But that's why, honestly, this is also another reason why I really wanted to do this episode. So because I think a lot of people really want to go into medicine, but they don't really know the steps they need to take. Or maybe so maybe we can just break that down a little bit. Um, so right after uni, if you this is if you've studied uni outside of Kenya. So once you come back, you have to do something called pre-internship, which is four months. Four months. Yeah. And then after those four patients, basically, internal medicine, surgery, gynecology, and pediatrics. Yeah. So after you've done those four months, then you'll be eligible to do the exam, the licensing exam. Um, and then that one is theory and a practical. Yes. So after you're done with that, um, if you've passed, um, then you go ahead and do a whole year of interns. Internship. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah. Yeah. And also I think maybe when you start internship, um, you go to, you know, you'll be sent to they do balloting. Yeah. So you might end up getting sent to Muranga. Yeah. I was by the way I was sent to Muranga. You're sent to Muranga. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Okay. Mine was Kapsabet or something. No, I go to Busambweni. Then a friend of mine, he was from Kost. Yeah. He said, I want to go and do my internship.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Why do we have the exact same story? Because I even had somebody else who was who was um, I don't know if he lived near Muranga or he lived in Kyam uh Thika. Yeah. He lived in Thika. So he was like, can we exchange? So because he got his at um Bagadi. Yeah. So we ended up uh I ended up doing my internship here in Bagadi.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah, so I think maybe if you go to instead of going to level six hospitals, which is also good, like Kenyatta, Railaudinga hospital, you do get exposure. But I feel like this level five hospitals at the periphery, you also do get a lot of hands-on skill. Because this one then has residents. You know, the level six hospitals, they have residents. Registrars who, you know, when you Which sometimes really will take over and they will lose. So when you're in the ops guy in rotation, you want to do C-sections, you want to do Max Stitch, whatever, they also want to do that. So there's a lot of there's no room for you to, you know, yeah, get this exposure. But that's if you are passionate about surgical courses. But if you are someone who wants to do pediatrics or iMed or IMED, I think level six would be good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

So for those people who don't know what is level six and what's level five.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

So level six is the highest. Uh it's where now you have everything. All the equipment, like all the CPs, MRs. Everything. I wouldn't say it's more to do with equipment, which is also part of it, but it has each and everything.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

It's each department, like ICUs, HDUs.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Yeah, and each speciality. You will have a cardiothoracic surgeon to a neurosurgeon to, you know, pediatric surgeon to ICU specialist, anesthesiologist, and the like. Some of these level five, they like that. Yeah. So that's why you can't refer above the level six. Level six is the highest that we have.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Okay, so one thing I really wanted to mention is about mentorship. And I think that's one thing I'm really, really passionate about. Yeah. Because I think even me as a young doctor, I would really wish that I had somebody who mentored me, especially early in the past. Like you see, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

The reason why I mine was a casual decision was because there was no mentorship. Yeah. I had to sit down and literally just say, you know, law is not for me, engineering is not for me, this is not for me, that is not for me. The only thing that makes sense is medicine at the time.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

So yeah, and so one thing I was talking about, like mentorship, especially is especially as a young doctor, once you graduated, as I was saying, like not a lot of people really know how to um, how the workspace is, what to do, what not to do, what is the right way. Honestly, as we were just going with the flow. I don't know about you guys. Maybe you guys, by the time you were here, you at least a little bit knew about people who were before you. Yeah. As we didn't really know anyone. Oh, so we were literally just going with the flow. Oh, I had an idea. When I was asked that we didn't have any idea. No way. We were just going with the flow. We had to wear it. So we guys didn't have like before you guys. No. We didn't know the steps. And since you know we were in China coming back, we didn't really know anyone who was in the field or anything like that. So we literally just had to go. When we came back, okay, like, okay, now where do we start? And then they sent us to KMDP. I don't know if they still call it the same. They they they say now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

So, anyways, we went to the medical practitioners and this dentist union.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

So we ended up canceling we went, we ended up going to the board, and then that's when they told us now you need um uh to do pre-internship. So we thought, okay, pre-internship, then we just ended up going to Kenyatta Hospital, and then our Kenyatta go, no. First of all, you have to go back to uh to the board, you have to make sure you are registered. So they needed all our transcripts and stuff like that. Literally, we were just going with the flow. We didn't know what we were doing.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, I think before before you even go to the board, you're supposed to go to the Uncertify the high commission, university commission.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

The one in uh somewhere in Gigiri. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

So you didn't we didn't know all of that, so we just had to do all of those steps. Yeah, yeah. Um so I wish there was like proper somebody who actually like you know helped us with all of those um uh steps. Yeah, told us what to do. I think they're very vital. I think they're very vital.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

I think anyone who is watching this episode now and is uh doing medicine outside and they need to come back and practice here, then these are the steps you need to take. First of all, when you come after you're done greeting your relatives and your friends who told you they by the time you finish medical school, they have grandkids. Yeah. Now you go directly to the university commission. It's somewhere in Gigiri. Um I think we'll just put it somewhere on your YouTube. So when you go there, you certify your papers, you make sure that your university is a World Health Organization uh accredited.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

And make sure whatever language you're doing is translated in English.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

It is, yeah, you have to translate all your documents. And then after that, you go find a lawyer, certify your documents, take them to Kenya Medical Practitioners and Dentists uh Council. Go to the board. Um, do in pre-internship, they'll send you to anywhere you guys want. Most people do it in Kenyatta, other people in Bagadi, Mama Lucy, and the like. Do those four months, make sure those four months you you at least learn the conditions that are recurrent. Uh, if it's pediatrics, it's mostly acute gastroenteritis, anemia, malaria. There's actually a pediatric protocol book.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's I think there's a protocol book for internal medicine, pediatrics.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

And obscene as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

They did an option. Yeah. At the time we only had the two.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, so obscene, you do pre-eclampsia, you make sure a placenta preview.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

At least you know like the basics, you know the basics, basically.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Yeah. Uh the dosages in pediatrics, the different types of surgeries, the acute abdomen and the like. So by the time you're done with the pre-internship, you're doing your exams, you at least have an idea. And and obviously you have the knowledge when you do the the what do you call the theory.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

And then when you're doing your practicals, you know how to, you know, diagnose different conditions and treat and everything. So by the time you're done, I think you're good to go. You start internship with a lot of enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

And I think the whole, I think a lot of people also don't know the whole point of internship is for you to actually realize which departments you're good at and for you to have like an intensive um experience in all the departments. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah. Yes. So that at least by the end you know where you want to specialize in. And uh, if you are a medical officer and you're posted anywhere, you will should be able to work.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

At least work in yeah, whichever you choose. Okay, so one thing I also wanted us to touch is the fact that a lot of people actually assume that doctors are rich. Huh?

SPEAKER_01 30:53

People do that, people assume that I think maybe maybe there's some truth to that. The ones who own businesses, I guess. No, okay. Yeah, so businessmen in in uh who are in the medical department.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

So my question was what is the financial reality of a doctor and is the salary reflective of the years of study and sacrifice? Honestly speaking, no. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

If that was the case, we wouldn't be having strikes every year, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Actually, right now, Nairobi metropolitan.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

I think people, some people like like blind themselves to that. Like, because why would you think doctors are not?

SPEAKER_01 31:32

If you're doing medicine for the wrong reasons, which is money, you're you're you're in the wrong profession. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Actually, that's what I really wanted to address because a lot of people actually think that doctors are rich. Like a lot of the time, even they're like, Oh, why are you complaining? We uh actually we really are. And I think we're the brokers because the amount of time and effort that actually goes into studying medicine.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Oh my god, the good six years, you know, right? Uh the struggles, the exams, the stress.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yeah, I don't know about now, but let me just give you guys a rough figure because during because whether pre-internship is free, you don't you don't get uh paid for that. Yeah, yeah, of course. So after you're done your licensing and then you start your internship, is I don't know about like if things have changed now, but like in uh at our time it was like maybe a hundred between 150 to 120. Yeah, around that and yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Yeah, and then you know the uh once you do internship, obviously the first boom is is crazy. Yeah, like you don't get paid until roughly five months, six months.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Imagine us within I don't think the first four months we did not. No, us it was at least two months. No, as four months we didn't get paid for the first four months. Then you ended up getting just prepare for the bullets. Then you get the whole bulk. The whole bulk. So it's a lot of money. You're even shocked. You don't know what to do with it. Actually, another thing, uh maybe today's not the day we talk about this, but the financial illiteracy of doctors is something we really need to discuss. Because sadly, a lot of the time, especially because you know, people, even now, the people who are hearing this, I'm sure they're thinking 140, 130, but that's a lot of money. Really, it's not. It's not.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Because you can imagine you're doing you're doing internship. And you're not you are there, no, you're there now you need to call there from Monday to Friday. Yeah. And in these days, there's a there are days you're on call.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

And then on the weekends, there's a weekend you're on call. So you can be on a Saturday and Sunday. So you basically have no life apart from that hospital.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Oh, the amount of hours you're working, yeah, and that money is literally worthless. Plus, I think a lot of people also don't um realize that during internship, a lot of people are sent outside of their homes, like outside of Nairobi. If you live in Nairobi, so you obviously you're not living with parents, you need there's rent that you need to pay, bills that you need to pay, you know, like, and probably your your yeah, it's honestly.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

You can imagine get uh your parents paying for your school fees throughout med school. You finish, you become a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

And now they're thinking, okay, now we're gonna rest. Yeah. Where? Where?

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

So so um I think with with the finances, you know, the uh medicine is not the best job. It really is absolutely not. Even though at a consultant level you might get a decent amount of money.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Consultancy, we mean people who actually have they've done their masters and they have specialized.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

So they they might they might be getting enough money, but it's I don't think they also have a life.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

I think people actually who earn a lot is the people who actually have like clinics or hospitals.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Yeah, the like the business. And it depends. If your hospital is not known, it's not in a strategic place. Yeah, the walk-in of patients is very minimal.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

There are only very few doctors here by the way who really get paid well. Yeah. Yeah. So another thing um I wanted to maybe touch on is why do you think many doctors, because you know, I feel like with all of these challenges that we talked about, I think a lot of it's very easy for you to uh fall back and actually like, you know, give up on the profession, which a lot of people actually do. So they because they leave the profession. Why do you think that's so?

SPEAKER_01 35:18

I think most of them, um, there are a lot of factors to why people leave this profession because at the end of the day you're always dealing with diseases, death.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Yeah, you know, it's emotional, it takes an emotional task.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

It takes a lot of you know, it takes a lot of mental well-being to remain in the profession. Then the other thing, some people may not feel like that um this profession is rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

It's really yeah, that's so true.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Yeah, other other people might leave because of the finances, they want to go into business, yeah, and you know, make uh decent amount of money. You know, so there are a lot of factors as to why people leave medicine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

So yeah, I think I think you've already covered um a lot because that's exactly why the reason why a lot of people live. People have different reasons for giving medicine. But uh and for me, I think one of the biggest reasons is the fact that a lot of people, like people are not prepared well enough for the profession. Yeah, I wasn't at least, and I know a lot of people uh are not as well, because they don't really know what it's the real life in like actual working in a hospital, what it takes is not something that a lot of people are ready for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and they become it's it can easily overwhelm you, especially like you know, the emotional toll that we're talking about, because you'll be surrounded by death all the time. You'll see a lot of like uh people dying, you'll see a lot of people who are um suffering in different ways. So if you can't really handle the emotional toll on that, it's it can be really, really difficult. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yeah, honestly speaking, it is. Uh, we are not built the same, we're all built different. Yeah, there are people who can, you know, withstand a lot of pressure, there are people who cannot. Yeah. Uh there are people who may venture into business and feel like this business is making me enough money. Yeah. Why must I struggle? Which is true. You can still have your degree. Yeah, I don't think um people should be shamed because, oh, this is a doctor, they've studied for six good years. What are they doing? Why would they go and do, you know, business and all these things? Unless you're in that profession, I think you shouldn't have any comment. That is so true.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

And another thing, by the way, for me, I feel like unless you're the one in their shoes, don't have an opinion about it. Because you know, you never know why this person is doing what they're doing and why they actually decided. And people should not, they're not, you're not entitled to know. You're not a child. Like you have you're you're entitled to your own wants and needs. Like, if you know this is not a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

You're not entitled to know we why this person made this decision, right? Unless someone decides to share that with you, I don't think it's your place.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Please say louder. Say it louder. Oh, yeah. Now that we're talking about like uh changing careers, sadly, one of the things I actually realized uh way after like um I was practicing as a doctor is that medicine is not a transferable skill. It is not, it's really because as doctors, what else do we need about medicine? Do you really bother imagine what else now you've left the career? What else do we have? We know nothing about politics or math. We don't know anything about anything. You literally you don't know anything about anything, yeah, which is so sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

That's why you find you find doctors chilling with doctors, with fellow doctors.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Because you nobody else will even add this at the plus, that's why for me, honestly, I always recommend to people if like before you even go to medical school, is please be very sure that this is actually the career you want. And for you to be able to do that, if you can actually take time and go maybe intern for doctor, or actually, look, you know, if you can hang around doctors, ask as many questions as you can. Yeah. And actually, like try to figure out what life is actually as a doctor. Because a lot of the times, you know, like it can be uh like like doctors are high and mighty, like, oh my goodness, it's like the pinnacle of like you know, life that now you've become a doctor. So please don't let that um mess with your mind. Actually go research, yeah. Uh like you know, um get to know what actually like you know it uh it takes for somebody to do medicine. And if there's somebody out there that you know um who wants to do medicine, please just send them this um episode so that they can actually understand what it takes for you to become a doctor. And if they have any questions, they can reach out to you of course, of course. Um another thing, um, oh yeah, with the transferable skills, I would also say um if you decide to ever leave, like, and this is for advice for anybody who decides to leave the profession, I would say just sit down with yourself. Like try to uh what is it called? Audit. Audit yourself. Like see what hobbies you have. Audit. No, I mean like just try to figure out what you like, what your hobbies is, what you um enjoy, and just maybe try to figure out because and also check your personality.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Are you someone who is, you know, empathetic? Yeah, are you willing to listen to other people's problems every day?

SPEAKER_00 40:14

And sadly, one thing I always say is like sadly, if a lot of these other people you just have to start over.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Because now medical, hey, what's you what you in there? You're in there. Like it's not transferable. It's not like you know, people who've done accounts and now they can go into a lot of different um professions if they've decided they don't want to work at a bank anymore. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Yeah, obviously. I feel like we have butchered medicine.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Can you talk about the good part? Okay, let's get into that because that was the next one. Uh many people choose medicine because of the oh yeah. Okay, one more thing before we actually go to the good part. A lot of people actually choose medicine because of their parents. And actually, I would really, really highly recommend for you not to do that. If your parent actually wants to for you to do medicine. I have a different take. You have a different take? Yeah, go. Okay. So I would say if your actual parent wants you to do medicine, I would actually think twice, not because it's a bad decision. It might be the greatest decision, but it also has to come from you. Like you also have to literally sit with yourself and see, for example, like 10 years from now, am I still going to want this? And is what is my um um, you know, like reasons for doing it? Is it because of the money? Is it just because of like, you know, uh making my parents happy? Because I know a lot of people who actually took the degree and uh they took the certification afterwards, they took it to the empire to be like, here, I've done it for you. Oh my god. I'm done. That's that's crazy, you know? And why would you do that? Because now you've wasted what six years of your life. Of your life, and these are the most important really time of your life. So I would suggest against energetic. Yeah, you know, I would suggest against that, unless it's like you've literally figured out and you know this is really the route you want to go. So let me let me play the devil advocate.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Um, I feel like as parents, now you're a parent, of course. I'm a parent, yeah. Um, you know what what's best for your child. Yeah. Obviously, you're the one who, you know, uh you've spent basically the rest the whole of their lives with with they've spent it with you. Yeah. So you know them. Yeah. You know this child is capable of doing this.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

So because of lack of mentorship and uh you don't have people who are mentoring you into, you know, doing these different courses, yeah. If your parents suggests, at the end of the day, yeah, of course it has to come from you. Yeah. But there are people who have no idea what they want what they want to do. So if you tell these people, don't take the advice of your parents, if they tell you, they'll get lost. So I think obviously take whatever they tell you, assess it yourself, sit down with yourself, see, is this something that I can do, or is this something that I can't? If you can't, then now make you the decision of not wanting to do. But if you can, and you feel like, oh, obviously they have, you know, um obviously maybe your parent knows you're very kind. Maybe your parent knows you're very helpful. And these are traits you need to become a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

It really is.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

It's it's more rewarding. And I'm not saying all doctors are kind and helpful. Yeah. But if you have these traits. They all should be. Yeah, they should be. If you have these traits, because um they say um medicine is the only job where your office is where the uh where a human being is uh it's vulnerable. Vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. So you see this person's vulnerability. Yeah, they share things they can't share with other people. Other people, that's what you're saying. Yeah. So if you're not empathetic and if you're not kind, and if you're not willing to help, then I think this profession is not for you.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Yeah, that is so true. And uh, one more thing I would maybe say, especially to parents who are um encouraging. the kids to go to medical school, I would say please try to find this child of yours, somebody that they can that can mentor them. If you, for example, know somebody who's a doctor who's already working, maybe get that person in touch with your daughter or son.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

And so that they can, you know, like ask the questions, like they get to know the the the profession in a very deeper way. Yeah. I just don't appreciate that these this um glorifying you know of of the medical career which I really don't agree with. Especially a community. Exactly. It really romanticizes and glorifies the career which of course is something to glorify but it's also really really really difficult. And I would really like highly highly suggest that you either do like get a little bit of experience like you know talk to the right people so that you can make your decisions better. So at 10 years later you don't actually realize hey this was the wrong decision to make if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Yeah I feel like and and and most doctors are reachable.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Yeah yeah they really are yeah yeah because I they've they've they were the ones who had it the worst because they so they're willing to help.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah so reaching them is not even a big deal. You can even go to a clinic one day and you're going there to be you know uh seen by a doctor and you can bring your child with you.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

True and that's what they can just ask the questions. Yeah. Okay um one thing I would say is um because honestly it's really risky for somebody to do go ahead in medicine if they're not really sure that's the path. I would really really honestly I feel like I'm repeating this because the amount of people who actually leave the profession is more than the people who stay. And that is a lot of different factors but a huge one is for like it was just not the right decision.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah yeah yeah yeah so let's talk about the rewards as you say what is the things like um that you really enjoy as a doctor um uh as a doctor obviously now I I do work in two different hospitals um I um the beauty part is in both two this these two hospitals I work in um emergency so a patient is brought in was uh assaulted had a head injury was involved in a road traffic accident we manage that patient so fast they go to theater yeah we do um the neurosurgeons they do craniotomy they do bark the next day the patient is working and it's out and then um they come they say thank you for saving my life you know um a few a few weeks ago I was um I was driving my car and I was heading for a shift that was starting around 4 p.m till midnight so um I happened to see a place where there was a lot of commotion there were a lot of you know um motorbike uh you know this border border drivers and stuff they're standing there and then I'm looking at a place I see two people injured and they're lying down one is crying in pain and he is bleeding like no one's business so I'm telling them when did this happen they're telling me like maybe 20 30 minutes ago and I'm telling them why do you guys have these people here? Exactly why are they not reached to the hospital they are like oh we are still waiting for ambulance we're trying to reach an ambulance I said listen I'm going to a hospital you can put them in my car both of them so I took both of them and then there were two small kids um who was Somali they they said can we come with you? I said it's fine come at least you can be sorting them out as I'm working. Yeah so I took these patients there and um one was of Chinese descent and he ended up getting admitted in the high dependency unit. The other one was a Kenyan he was the motorbike driver rider. So he sustained even worse injuries but when you look at them physically you'll think this one is much more emergent. But then now because of financial constraints they were you know uh discharged and taken to a different hospital. So the rewarding part is that guy that was admitted in HDU was a was discharged home. And he was just and then the relative reached out and they were like thank you for saving my oh that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Okay let me tell you a rewarding uh story that I had years ago uh when I was doing my internship in Bagadi. So there's this woman who had um five miscarriages before and now the sixth time she came to the hospital and she's like okay guys this is my last chance like I'm pregnant now but then I always lose my pregnancies please help. So we ended up I was with her for the like for the basically bad or yes so I was with her for the like I think she came to us when she was like two months pregnant and I was with her the entire time. So I was telling like she was coming to the hospital imagine every two weeks just to make sure that's how bad she wanted a child. And at the end of it um we ended up um she ended up delivering and um at the time like because of the bad history we ended up choosing to do C-section. So she had the baby by C-section and she actually leaved the child after me. Oh my God and she still contacts me at the oh my goodness that's one of the little things that really make you happy yeah so we have those kind of stories and it's really impactful for you to actually see the impact and the the the you know like the the touch you have on humans. Especially as you said before like uh because in our offices and in our line of work you see a lot of like people that are in the most vulnerable state of their life when they come to you.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Yeah 100% like um it's uh it's very rewarding because sometimes you see a child who's very sick. Yeah. You want to admit he has a difficulty in breathing you want to admit even all the way to ICU and then all of a sudden a few injections here and then nebilization here and there. The kid is back to normal. No that's and then you're like what?

SPEAKER_00 50:03

And sometimes you realize like the little the most little like you know things can actually make a huge difference to people. Like even fluids. Yeah you know like you just sometimes you just give somebody fluids you're like oh wow it actually made a huge difference you know so dehydration dehydration is no joke. Yeah so and the other part of the question is what is the most challenging um the most challenging part um in this career is um you know as if I can speak from um what do you call uh your my yeah my perspective is um it's very hard for me at least right now I'm so used to working and earning money as much as however little it is yeah I have a family and stuff now starting residency is a challenge because for you to start residency you have to stop working true yeah and you also need to find a way to pay for that yes yeah you have to be paying it's like you're going back to school basically so one day one time I'll find a sponsor and then if you're listening to this and you want to sponsor that exciting it's only three years you know we should but honestly that's a huge challenge and another thing that I would actually say like what we talked about the reward I think the complete opposite can also be very challenging at least for me because sometimes yes um you get some patients that are doing really well with the medication or you know like the the the steps you took as a medical doctor and the treatment you've done and it really helps but sometimes you actually get the opposite as well that um you see people in the worst state and sometimes they can't even be helped. Yeah you know and then you either lose them or clearly you need to somebody to send somebody home.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

One thing that that reminds me is when you're studying these things and when you are doing your internship you don't think these things can happen to a loved one. Right?

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Like it's impossible you're like what and imagine you're a doctor and you're a doctor how you you're you can't help your person it's impossible.

SPEAKER_01 52:19

Yeah you know so getting now that and then and then you know at least um when someone knows you're a doctor they know that you're capable of treating each and every disease yeah so your relatives the neighbors yeah everyone will come with you with their issues okay I have this rush okay I'm not a dermatologist.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Exactly I think people don't but I've seen this rush maybe somewhere yeah and you can advise them to a certain extent but did they still need to see a specialist or or whatever. Okay one more thing I also wanted to mention about the challenge is that um the mental challenges as well I would suggest to any doctor out there if you're actually working in the field please have a mental health specialist who works with you go see a psychologist talk to somebody you know like even because those hard times like whenever honestly for me I think it was the second night I was working working as an intern I lost a five day old baby and it was the worst thing like I had nightmares for months afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

It's really bad it can really be bad and it can really affect you and then the other thing that we really lack yeah is especially you know working in an emergency setting you lose a patient.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

There's no debriefing moment there isn't really I think that was one of the things I go on like like nothing happened.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

And they just expect you to just move on the other day there was an intern we were doing resuscitation and he was there with us and then once we were done with the resuscitation we didn't achieve risk patient was succumbed and we were certified dead. Yeah we went on with our life like no one's business which is a good thing and you know it can be a good thing as well it's but it can also be really really the intern came to me and he's like I don't feel well I've never experienced such a thing please can I go home? I told him okay. You know there's no point of you staying here when you're not in the right state of mind.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Yeah honestly that's why I will forever suggest because you know the amount of doctors by the who take their lives because of um uh you know like mental health problems please go see uh uh psychologist please go see a counselor like these are not things that you should be ashamed of it can be really really difficult out there I think most people view it as taboo yeah they think um going to a psychologist a counselor psychiatrist is you have to have shame they have a lot of shame around yeah yeah and it's not it's not it's not a bad thing seeing your therapist oh wow so you guys we've talked a lot so the last question I have is what do you wish somebody had told you about the career before joining medical school um I think the cons that it comes with yeah I think I was more focused on the pros of you know helping patients doing this bringing an impact to someone's life you know um no one prepared me for the cons it comes with yeah uh the the financial struggle it comes with you know um the pathway of residency and stuff like that um but um yeah I wish those things were things I was told what about you I think the same um I wish I was prepared more honestly I think out of all the things I talked about before I wish I had a mentor I wish I had somebody who was you know like older than me who was in the profession that I could go to you know like to ask questions because sometimes you know like the hospital can be a really um uh competitive place as well and sometimes there's very little you know because all of these even the the senior doctors are very busy so you rarely get time to actually go up ask for advice so I wish I really had somebody who um I could go to for advice like a mentor. I wish I had like you know um I think we already talked about everything but I wish I had somebody who would literally just guide me through like if there was like those sort of sort of deaths and um you know like bad times that we had I wish there was somebody out there who actually gave us a deep breath. I wish there was like somebody who was like okay this happens uh it's okay for you to take time even if someone tells you all these things yeah unless this happens to you yeah and you experience it yeah I don't I mean after the experience yeah for example like with that internship that you said yeah after the experience I wish there was somebody who actually said yo this happened it's okay like uh maybe this is what you need maybe take some few minutes and just try to actually just take you through it yeah yeah yeah that is that is very key by the way that's very key yeah that's very key because I think a lot of the uh time like people doctors just like oh like they just push through push through see like these are the things you see all the time just move on the moving on is just so I know sometimes it can affect people I know some people who go to their cars and then they start crying me too that was me that was honest that was me I would I would go and you know like take it out I would have sleepless nights but at the end of the day you know like one thing that really kept me going was the the good part the reward like those good patients those patients that were really helpful that I could see oh like my efforts are actually like making sense to somebody else's life and that's why I there are some certain uh places I would never specialize in something like oncology hematooncology it's really difficult because you know like cancer with leukemia the outcome is not always the best mostly actually so um you're always dealing with deaths yeah even though trying your best giving all this chemotherapy radiotherapy there's only so much you can do there's only so much but they honestly whether it's oncology or not at the end of the day like something can happen to somebody who was literally fine five seconds ago like like hospitals are very very unpredictable because you know like there's also another patient who's doing so well last night the next morning once you get back to work they have they have they have passed on yeah yeah yeah yeah I've seen I've seen I've seen multiple multiple times I've seen such cases subhanallah so anyways you guys if you have a doctor in your life if you know somebody who's a doctor please go give them a tight hug give them a hug because that and money too and money and money money money it's very important go give them bro surprises our personal numbers are ready right so go give them a hug and an envelope of money but then you know like the it's a it's a really um popular Chinese um tradition tradition for people to get like money in a nice especially during weddings they normally give them money in a nice red envelope oh so do that speed is coming right I think I should go to China yeah I need that money right yeah I need that tradition we need to adopt some tradition there they really do I hope you guys have enjoyed the episode I hope you guys have gotten um like you know have understood doctors a bit better and if you guys have any questions leave them on the comment section or yeah just um DM me on Instagram the Fatima edit or at the cultured voices podcast page on Instagram or just ask the questions on the comment section. Yeah and then insha'Allah we might just do another thank you for being I didn't expect it to be this lively yeah it's like what what am I even going to say there I'm glad you enjoyed it yeah yeah so if you guys know anyone who is in the medical career or um is planning to do um medicine or go into that career please share them uh the episode with them trust me if I if I went back in time and I had something like this I would really really appreciate it I think it is very um it's very crucial. Yeah yeah so so anyone who wants to sponsor Dak Tari please yeah please you my personal somewhere right yeah please like subscribe and put the notification button on for further for further episodes stay tuned thank you always wanted to say that so as Dactari said um please comment and tell us what you want to hear next time and if you have any questions about the medical career or anything else I would love to have Dr back yeah um so tell us what you want to hear and until next time as salam alaykum