I was a new captain coming into the squadron. There was another two male captains in the squadron. He basically said, the other two guys, they got top student. So if you don't get top student, there's no point in coming back. So I got top student and I also got a letter of recommendation from the core colonel saying this is a future star of the core. So I basically came back, put them both on his desk, and he said nothing. Sat down, I was struggling to breathe. This was high-altitude pulmonary edema, so your lungs are starting to fill up with fluids and it's got a 50% survival rate. You know, seek medical help within sort of 24 hours, it could be uh it could be currents.
Guys, welcome back to another episode of the Army Bloke Podcast. Really excited to bring this one to you today. I met my guest a few weeks back at the Centre for Army Leadership when we were doing some training there. And this person has vast experience in the military. Either that's delivering training as an instructor, assessing training at AOSB, and now still working as a full-time reservist, but also doing loads of expeditions as an adventurer. Tori, it is a genuine pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thanks for making the trip. I know it's an early start.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Nice to be here.
SPEAKER_00Would you like to just say a few words on yourself?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um, my name's Major Tori Allison. Um, I'm currently uh a staff officer down at the Lessons Exploitation Centre, um, which is now part of Land Forces Command. Um we basically gather themes and trends from training and operations and try and exploit the good and the bad across the field army.
SPEAKER_00Okay, cool. And I know we can't go into loads of detail because of the nature of it, but on it on the surface, what are some of the topics that you're kind of working on?
SPEAKER_01So there's a lot of themes that are coming out of Ukraine, obviously, and we want to ensure our soldiers are trained um as correctly as we we can do into some of the possible threats.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Well, let's take it back to the very start. Uh, why did you join the army? What was the what was the draw for you?
SPEAKER_01So I think um I was about 14
when I decided and I told my mum and dad, I'm joining the army. Um and they obviously thought I was mad. I had no uh I didn't know anyone in in the military whatsoever. It was just something about the life of actually being paid to climb up mountains really appealed to me. But actually um having the chance to lead at a really young age and being involved in in that sort of team environment, it just really appealed. So I think from the age of 16 I started going to various familiarisation visits, I'd get on the on the sleeper train from Glasgow and come all the way down to Alder Shot. Um and that really sort of sparked my interest.
SPEAKER_00Okay, nice. So once you sort of came out, so you tried RCB back in the day, which is regular commissions board, right? Uh at a pretty young age, 17. How was that experience?
SPEAKER_01So uh at 17 I thought it was a bee's knees, clearly. Um You're not the only one. RCB did not think that. Uh and I'd had a little bit of experience as an instructor at John Ridgway Adventure School. So there was a whole team of us up there for a summer um being instructors, and all of them wanted to join the military. I was the only female and the youngest, but I thought I had a chance at RCB because I I didn't want to do university, that was not in my sort of plan. I'm not very academic, more practical. So I attempted RCB at 17, and I mean I didn't get my report actually when I was working back there, probably because it's in the depths of time. Uh but uh I think I I just maybe struggled in that environment, especially with older people. Um, I maybe deferred to them because they had experience. And the feedback I got from from the team at RCB was go away, do something with your life and come back. We want you to come back, but you're just too young. You cannot go to Santos and expect to lead soldiers that you are you're just too young.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, a bit more life experience. Yeah, totally. I think I think that's one of the things that if you know there's any young people sort of going down to AOS B soon and giving it a crack, definitely they think there's a balance to play about yes, there's other people that are older than you, but you've still got to have that conviction in what you're doing. Because at the end of the day, if you're the leader, you're the leader. So don't be afraid to sort of step up and showcase that at times, I guess. Okay, so unsuccessful first time round. And actually, what's interesting, and this is to anyone that has been unsuccessful or will be in the future. I've had so many guests on the podcast now. Well, not so many, but guests on the podcast now that um I met so many people that were unsuccessful their first time. I've said this before, and I think there is something really valuable in experiencing some sort of setback or failure, however you want to say it, um, at an early age. And mine was probably my GCSEs. I'm not smart enough to wing this, need to work a bit harder. Uh, and then also when I got to Sandhurst, I had a really poor junior term. And actually, I think you learn about one how to handle it, and two, it's that I don't know, for me, it was a bit of a kick up the ass to go, I can't just cuff this. I need to put in a bit more work than maybe other people in order to get the result, but I know I'm capable of it, so I just need to work a bit harder. I think there's a huge sort of uh lesson in there. I don't know how you felt at the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I was absolutely devastated because it's all I'd been kind of building up to for a few years, even at that tender age of 17. It's all I ever want to do. And I kind of had to rethink all my plans. I'm like, oh my god, what am I gonna do? Why I'm gonna have to go
to university. Okay, well, let's try hotel and catering management because my parents running, were running hotel at the time. Let's do that. I know a bit of that. Um, and off I went. And luckily, the only benefit of going to university was joining the the officer training corps, which I absolutely loved, uh, and joined the infantry signals subunit. So I started my sort of dabblings in in military workings, if you like, um, at OTC, which was which was really useful. And I think that experience, plus uh I did a we had to do a year in industry. So a lot of people were going off to Disneyland Paris or some fancy hotel in New York. Uh, and I contacted the army and said, can I come and do a year working for for you guys? Is that all right? And I did what was called an O-type, uh, an open-type engagement for a whole year as an officer cadet, um, mainly based in old shop, but was out in Germany for three months, attached to various regiments. Um, sort of in the sort of catering side of things, uh, I went out to Cyprus on a lion sun, worked in the kitchens for Gurkha Transport Squadron, uh, which was quite hot, um, and various other things. So it was, it was, it was such a good experience. It definitely led me down the line of I don't want to do catering in the army. But uh, but obviously that was all rolled up in in the Royal Logistic Corps, which I eventually joined. So I decided that I would change my degree and I found something that was much more up my street, which was uh an H N D in uh outdoor pursuits.
SPEAKER_00H N D.
SPEAKER_01So it's a higher national diploma.
SPEAKER_00Got you. Okay, nice. So okay, really interesting. So that O type, I don't know if that still exists or whether it's now Army Officer Internship.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it may be something similar.
SPEAKER_00Cool, because I I remember I think the difference being I'm confident saying the army officer internship, you have to have passed AOSB, um, and then you've got your pass, but you just do the year sort of to try it out. We had a guy come and join our battalion and he had such a great time. He actually probably had a better time than the platoon commanders because they were like, we'll put you on all the good cheese.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, it was such good fun, and and it really opens up your eyes because you're you're an office cadet, you you have no responsibility whatsoever. Um, but you can speak to officers and you're with soldiers a lot of the time. So actually, I was doing some of my training with the soldiers, I was doing some training with the officers, so actually it was a good sort of mix.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you've also got the insight then into soldiers, which it happens a little bit more now. But at Santa, it's my experience, you barely interact with soldiers, you're just in this officer bubble, um, which actually isn't the case in the in the real army at all. Okay, so you went and did that, and then you've decided to go uh and do the HND and then you've gone back to RCB successful this time around.
SPEAKER_01I did. So yeah, second time around, I felt a lot more confident because I'd done a year in the the army, uh I'd done a few years OTC, um, so I kind of knew where my strengths and weaknesses lay. Uh I was quite au faith with command tasks and I knew the process, so I felt much more prepared. Amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. And then Sandhurst.
SPEAKER_01And then Sandhurst. Yeah, I went to Santest when I was 23. Um, so that's back in '97, which was quite some time ago. How was it? I absolutely loved it. Um, it was one of the best years, I think, in the military. And that's not an experience a lot of people have. But I think because I, you know, I had lots of experience. Uh, so I could put my kit on, I could fire a rifle, I could march, uh, probably not very well. Um, I could navigate because I'd done all my qualifications in the OTC, so I was a joint service mounted expedition leader before I got to Santhurst. Yeah. Um, so I could navigate. So I was the I was between navigator every single time. Yeah. And was actually banned from map reading in the final exercise.
SPEAKER_00Really? Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Because everyone made me the navigator.
SPEAKER_00Helping out, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And even there was one exercise we did where we were we were withdrawing um under CBRN conditions, we did a eight-mile extraction. And the company commander came up to me and he said, Do you know where you're going? And I'm like, Yes, sir, yeah, I do. He's like, Are you sure? I'm like, Yeah. And we got there ahead of the boys, and he basically came up to me at the end, he's like, Do you know if you went sort of five metres either way of your your track, you would have been bogged down in waist deep mud?
SPEAKER_00I'm like, I was I was on it, and you geez, I did not have that confidence in my own I really probably still don't. Yeah, the the the genuine like scare and nerves of going, This is a night nav now. And I'm just like, please, please, God, just get me through this. Uh yeah, if you can navigate, I think that is just a huge and also in that junior term, you learn it really far. There's so much to learn, right? And it's a basic military skill, but it's something that you know a lot of people don't really get to grips with, especially early on.
SPEAKER_01No, I know. And officers and maps normally never never mixed yeah, and I'm convinced it's in the teaching, by the way.
SPEAKER_00Not sorry, that's not blaming instructors. That's just saying the program is so tight, yeah, you go from in a classroom to suddenly you're on the ground, a ratio of one to thirty people learning, it's it's not that great. And then all of a sudden you're in a night nav running around and you feel pressured. Yeah. And I was like, Well, I I don't want to fail, so you end up just following people and not really navigating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the worst thing.
SPEAKER_00But I just happened for the next six years of my life.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah. So, you know, I I grew up in in Scotland. So at the age of 11, I was walking the West Island Way with my my dad and my sister carrying on a kit. So, you know, the the resilience was starting quite early, and then I spent a lot of my teenage years wandering the mountains. So actually I was I was quite confident um out in the rain quite often. Amazing. Um so that that really set me up for Sandhurst. So that you know, the the first term at Sandhurst, I was I had to look after
quite a few people, especially a you know, Ford student, um, or help people out that wasn't um that that was finding it struggle. Yeah and there was people that found it struggle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was probably one of those. And I remember on our was this Bracken, I can't quite remember, but I remember one of the guys uh we had Garmin's at the time, but we weren't allowed to use them for obvious reasons for uh like getting grid references and whatever.
SPEAKER_01I've never used one in my life.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's unbelievable, right? It's unbelievable. You know, it saved me a few times. But I remember on this one patrol we were doing, he was completely lost, right? We all were because I think we were just crowing it quite quite hard. And he took a knee, and the colour sergeant's giving him loads of shit, right? So he's like, You've got two minutes to figure out where you are. So I was like, I'll just do this, uh click the watch. Went over and I was like, write that, write that down. But uh, colour sergeants come back over, and he gave him the ten-figure grid instead of the eight, and I was like, No, it's a sure-yeah way. Obviously, he was like, How on earth have you got it close to ten figures? You didn't know where you were a second ago. No idea. Uh so yeah, that didn't go out, so if you're at sadest no, avoid that one. It's a lesson I learned. Then you commissioned into the RLC.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_00What now this is going to be different for everyone that commissions in there, I imagine, because there's a lot of different roles. Yeah. But what happens with phase two at that point?
SPEAKER_01So we did our our our main phase two was based on Deep Cut. That's that's now moved um across to Worthy Down. Everything's uh the whole RLC is moved across there. So we we basically did sort of three months where we did a kind of week in every kind of role. So we went to see the posties, we did a bit of um petroleum um down at Westmore's, I'm not sure that's there anymore. We did our HGV driving license. So I mean in that time I couldn't drive. So uh I spent one week getting my my driver's licence for a car. The next week I was driving a truck, getting my C license. The third week I got my C plus E license. So I went from zero to hero in three weeks.
SPEAKER_00Um Were you any good?
SPEAKER_01Ah, I've not crashed yet.
SPEAKER_00Nice. I asked that because one of my friends did it and I was like, You are the worst driver of the world.
SPEAKER_01I know, but actually it gave me the experience of what some of the soldiers do because that's what they do.
SPEAKER_02Oh, really? Yeah, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So for me, that was quite a good um idea of the sort of pressure of a complete non-driver going from a car into a truck, and you've got a truck and trailer, you know, an Eddie Stobart sized vehicle, and you're in charge of it. It's like, wow. Yeah. And that is a huge responsibility for a soldier who's come out of training, you're 1920, or or you, you know, and you're you're in charge of a huge vehicle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so it's quite a responsibility.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. And how long is phase two? It was about three months. Okay, three months. Okay. And then once that happens, do you know where you're going before obviously before it finishes, but like from Sandhurst? Do you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we we we all got sort of allocated a regiment from Sandhurst. Um, and my first regiment was two close support regiment that were based out in Gutesloe in Germany. So I knew I was going out there. Um, and that's exactly the regiment I wanted to go to, uh, especially close support, because you worked sort of directly with battlegroups, yeah. Um, which I I felt that was that was that was really good. Yeah. So I I turned up, I had a troop, um, I think it was about 33 people, we had various sort of four-ton trucks, landovers. So I think we had about um it was quite a few bits of kit people. So it you turn up and you're 24 and you are responsible for so much. I you've got a staff sergeant and a sergeant with you, but actually you you're it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, which is quite daunting when you start to think about it. But actually that those first couple of years as a as a well, I I was a second lieutenant and lieutenant for quite some time, being a non-grad, counted as a non-grad, um, which gave me some extra experience. But actually, those couple of years out in Germany going on exercise with the troops, and we we exercised quite a lot. We were out on in Poland on exercise Ulanigo quite a lot. We went out to Canada um on some of the big batters exercises. I deployed to Bosnia within six months of arriving in the regiment, and I was attached to an armoured batter group.
SPEAKER_00And that was an operational tour as well. Okay. So actually we're a lot into that first two years or so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that we did so much, and I I think the temple then is just so much more. Well, it depends. There's there's lots of other things that people are up to these days, but uh actually going and exercise, we we were on exercise quite a lot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay, amazing. Um what do you think some of those learnings are? I'm particularly fascinated about that jump. I remember when I was doing my driving test, my mum was like, the real learning happens once you've passed when no one else is in the car with you. And I kind of feel the same about you know, you go to Sanders and then all of a sudden you've actually got a platoon or a troop, and you're like, I actually don't know what I'm doing. Um how was that jump for you? And also, you you know, in in the RLC, you've got a staff sergeant and a sergeant, so more experience to draw on, probably because it's slightly bigger uh um troops. But how did you find that jump?
SPEAKER_01So it I had a couple of of very good staff sergeant and sergeants that I I went through in those those first couple of years and still in touch with them as well. Um, and they they were brilliant, they were very good at guiding you, um, giving you advice, but obviously you were there to make the decisions. Um and I would I would definitely you know that my advice to people is once you get to your troop, get to know your soldiers. Um, you know, get to know the ones that are, you know, maybe having issues at home or you know, because you can you can tell a lot about your soldiers and the way they react on exercise. If if they've got issues at home and they're not comfortable, then they might behave differently on exercise. So actually, it's really important to get to know your soldiers. I had a very good um sort of squadron uh commander out in Germany who actually went on to to become a a major general and he was an amazing leader. He was very quiet, down to earth, utterly commanded any room, but he knew every single soldier in the squadron.
He knew the wives' names, he knew the children's names, and it's definitely some I wanted to emulate what the understanding he had of his troops.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's that emotional intelligence, right? Of being able to spot when someone's not how they normally are and why that might be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think it's that trust you really need to build up, and you can do that in barracks. Um, because if you if you build up that trust in barracks, then it's going to be tenfold when you get on exercise or get on operations.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. And and it's it's got to be genuine as well, I think, of really wanting to know who they are. And you know, we sort of do the platoon interviews and all that type of stuff, but it's like it actually goes further than that. It's not just a tick sheet of questions, it's like grab a bree with the person. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And you know, you especially in Germany, um, there was lots of tax-free opportunities, so a lot of my soldiers got into trouble. So I became financial advisor, marriage guidance counsellor, life coach, and a lot of these things you may not get told um at Sandhurst. I don't know if it's it's different now, but actually going into some of the levels where you're having to write to people to sort out their finances, you know, that's what you have to do as a platoon commander, potentially.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. There is something that happened at Sandhurst. Um, I don't know what it's specifically titled, but uh soldier interviews where they're real soldiers, but they're they're acting a a case out or something, and you are the platoon commander and and you're kind of trying to solve what what it is, what the issue is, and then they give you their feedback of whether you ri they felt like you really cared, like what the course of action was, and then they find out you know what the real reason is or whatever. And sometimes it's like this person's just a bit of a troublemaker, and sometimes there's like a catastrophic life event that that we didn't uncover because our questioning was shit or or something like that. And actually, I think it's it's such a good practice case because a lot of the, you know, yes, there's the tactical side of for whatever you're doing and the technical side, but a lot of it's just about finding out who the who you're working with and what their problems are. And like you say, you know, looking at bank statements, going, I think I can see the problem here. Yeah, you don't earn enough to spend that.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that that too. But yeah, and and teamwork is just crucial. You know, if you've got a good team, you've got a good team around you, then you'll be able to achieve anything, especially when you get to operations, which is the most important bit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So what about some of the sort of leadership I've I've put here leadership learnings in key moments? Because you've done quite a lot, right? Are there any specific um examples that come to you that you're like, I handled this really well, didn't handle it well, or that stand out to you just as being challenging?
SPEAKER_01I mean, there's probably loads that I didn't handle well. Uh, but a couple of key moments. One was um actually in Bosnia, I was attached to the Armored Battle Group, and I was what was called a logistics support detachment, LSD commander, not that kind of LSD. But uh I was an LSD commander, uh, it was up at a bus depot, um, and my office was a pigsty, which was nice. Um, but I I was there with we had sort of five people on and off. Um, so it was a couple of supply controllers and a couple of red ops, and basically we had to supply the battle group with critical spares um on a winter tour, which uh was quite challenging, especially because of weather. Yeah. Um it was minus 30, there was a lot of snow, um, so supply routes were always there was always delays, um, and they were still sort of out patrolling on tanks at that stage. So it was it was quite critical that we we got some of these spares through. Um I I actually working in that small team environment just because we were the only loggies there, um, I think that taught me a lot uh about working directly with those soldiers because you know, we were away for a few months, it was cold, you know, we were away for Christmas, it was it it was challenging being in that environment, especially because we were with uh you know, an armored battle group. Um I was the one of the only females. Up there as well, um which never bothered me. But uh, you know, some one of my commanders would call me his lumpy jumper, which is obviously not ideal, and gave me the job of being weather girl uh at the old group in the morning, which I'm like, right, sir, you give me that job. I'm gonna I built a whole board, made signs. I'm like, you give me a job, I'm gonna do it to the tenth degree. Uh so I had lots of signs and I well, I was kind of taking the piss, but um I'm like, you that's that's kind of my attitude to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's how you handled it. Yeah. Well, uh interestingly, so I well, we'll come on to sort of your experience uh as a woman in in service because I think that's what um what's missing from my podcast at the moment.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I did give you a hard time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've been tracking it for a while, uh and and we'll sort of come on to that. Um, but I mean how how did you handle that at the time? Yes, you put the work in, but there must have been what a lot of anger to be like, what the fuck?
SPEAKER_01Yes, and I think as I mean, I was a second lieutenant at the time, and this was a this was a a colonel, so it's like, well, how and and I was the only loggy, so I didn't really have a direct chain of command there. But uh um unfortunately I'm a very stubborn person, so I just kind of knuckled down and I'm like, I'll show you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that that was my attitude, and that that's been my attitude basically for my whole military career. Is um you tell me that, well, I'm gonna change your mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, so you had that that um on exercise. So in in the winter, was it? Was that an exercise?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that was that was operations. Um another critical moment was um on Safe Surrey. Um, when I was uh I was a captain in a in a transport squadron and we went out to Safe Surrey. Uh that was when 9-11 happened. So we were in the desert when 9-11 happened. Uh, and we thought it was just exercise play to begin with. And we're like, Yeah, no, it's not. But on that exercise, I was um stagging on that night in the ops box, and I had a phone call to say one of my soldiers' mum had died suddenly. Uh, and this was about three o'clock in the morning, and I'm like, oh. So I I'd I'd taken the soldier through um phase one training, so I actually knew her. Yeah, and I'd met her mum when she came to pass out, uh, and I knew she was gonna be absolutely devastated. So it was about two or three in the morning. Um, I got everything, the regiment, well, the G1 chain kicks in, um, which is amazing, but she couldn't be picked up till six o'clock in the morning. So I'm like, I'm gonna let her sleep because we can't do anything. You can't do anything uh for sort of three hours. We didn't really have mobile phones or anything, so she couldn't really do anything. I didn't want to wake her up. So anyway, I I woke up her corporal um and then went to tell her that her mum died, which was probably one of the worst things I've ever had to do because I knew how close she was to her mum. And her mum hadn't been ill, she just had a heart attack. Oh, really? Yeah, so it was completely out of the blue, and especially when you're s you're so far from home, you're in a in the middle of a desert uh in Oman. Um, and that was quite challenging because she didn't take it very well. Um, but I knew we could get her away and she would be sort of looked after once she she gets into that sort of welfare chain.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and how old were you at the time?
SPEAKER_01Um I was I think I was about 20 27, 28.
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00So still a bit of military experience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd had a bit of military experience, but um still fairly young because that's that's quite a responsibility having to tell someone that their mum's died.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I remember um I think I was duty officer, and it's sort of come through to me that a lad in another company, I think it was his uncle who had passed away, and I I don't know, I just didn't really know what to do. So I just sort of called my mate who was his platoon commander, but I remember the OC being like coming for me, like, why on earth have you not informed me first? And I was like, Oh yeah, actually that's the kind of the best way to do it. All learnings, but difficult to handle as as especially if you're deployed, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, in the middle of a desert, not the one.
SPEAKER_00And what you say on that G1 side is uh it's hard to put into words how effective that is, actually. When the army sort of gets behind you and is supporting something, a soldier, it happens fast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, really, really fast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, which which is brilliant because you know you will be you will be really supported very well if anything does happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I had um Harry on the podcast and and he was talking about sort of mental health uh reaching out to DCMH and he was like, once you do, obviously the big the first bit is doing that. Um once you do, you feel that support, um, which probably can't be said for Civvy Street at the moment, where sort of you reach out and there's a long waiting list and whatever, which is obviously not good. Um okay, and you also you mentioned that you sort of you did phase one training as well, as in you delivered it.
SPEAKER_01I did, yeah, I was there for a year. So yeah, because I was an on-grad, I'd spend an extra year as a lieutenant. Um, so I was at Purbright for a year taking platoons through. And uh at that stage we still had all female, all male platoons. So I was doing both. Um and yeah, it was really interesting. I I always found it fascinating when they turned up on day one and the shock of capture when they came through the gates, that the the first couple of weeks was just incredible. And it was the real mix of people. So you got those really young guys that were sort of 18, straight from school, or maybe hadn't been school, or you know, they left school a couple of years ago, to this sort of, I think 28-year-old was the oldest that we had in my platoon, who, you know, had family, who'd had a career, and the real mix of individuals was really interesting. But I loved the way that they they gelled throughout the process and they became a team through adversity of phase one training. Um, but it you know, it's a real privilege to do that phase one training. Um, I think it's great, and actually to produce, you know, that that soldier at the end, uh, it was 16 weeks at the time, but actually to meet all their family as well and and all the family coming up to you going, ah, little little Johnny's changed so much during your life. Yeah, he would do. Um but they they all seemed absolutely thrilled that you know he had or she had done something with their lives and actually achieved something. And it was all that wraparound care as well. You know, some of them, a lot of them had maybe come from uh, you know, a hard background growing up and actually given almost like a family structure. Uh maybe uh we were quite harsher than a family would be, but you you know, you got given food, clothing, a structure every single day, a program, you know, people investing in your well-being as well. And it really benefited um soldiers coming through, which I always thought was great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's going into that bubble, isn't it? Which I actually really liked about going through training myself and then also delivering training. Um at that time, well, obviously phones are a big thing. Um and it's not that you can't you like you remove all the external factors in family, like they should absolutely support you and you need a support network and stuff. But I do think that too much contact home can you kind of forget the reasons that you joined, and it's I saw people do really well if they just accepted their new bubble for that period of time, um, which can be hard to do in that adjustment phase, but once you do, that's where sort of the relationships start building, and it's you know, being up late helping someone with their ironing or whatever and forgetting about friends and family for a period, and maybe limiting contact home is kind of what I'm trying to say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I think that's that I mean it must be completely different with phones. I mean, luckily when I went through Sandurst was posted to Germany, I would do my one phone call in the phone box back home to my mum saying, I'm still alive. Um so I think having having the pressure of you know, even social media and and all that stuff now must be completely different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and I think, you know, it's it definitely serves its purpose. There's there's all sorts of you know, people doing invals and whatever on phones, and they can be used for training purposes. And actually, some of the stuff we used to do at Cataric, we used to film and then show it back, and especially because I was doing like the series YouTube stuff at that time. Yeah, we could show them back different bits um that you know didn't quite make it into the final edit or whatever. Uh, but definitely actually trying to limit trying to just get them to buy into this team is a big thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Um, and those that did really well, I think probably did that the the they probably performed the best on the on the course. Um, you mentioned there as well, some people might have picked it up, is that because you were a non-grad, you had to do another year at Lieutenant.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's now changed, right? It's now just the same if you've got a degree or not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But just talk us through what actually the restrictions were as a non-grad at that time.
SPEAKER_01So I think we we probably had a different pay scale, um, and we had to spend a lot longer in in this. I think because I had an H N D I I mean I called it have no degree, but higher national diploma. Um, so we got some uh like 18 month seniority instead of maybe the three years. So we were kind of a semi non-grad, um, which meant that actually it was it was getting to captain that was sort of mainly delayed. But actually I thought that was great. You know, it's it's those junior jobs that you absolutely thrive in and you want to spend more time in. So I'm like, don't want to rush to get to captain. Actually, I'm having fun doing my you know, trip commanding and doing my trip commander at Per Bite. Actually, it was great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. That's a really good way to look at it, actually, because yeah, I guess when I got to captain, that's when I started to feel like, oh no, the jobs are all behind me.
SPEAKER_01No, because because you know, when you get into captain, you're potentially going to sort begin to do staff jobs and things, and actually, because not being academic, me too, yeah. That was not my thing. I wanted to spend as much time with with soldiers doing the actual job of being an officer, a leader, all the things you learn at Sandhurst.
SPEAKER_00That's that's definitely how I felt is that it's a different type of leadership going into a staff role. And yes, you still work in a team and whatever, but it is uh very different from what I would say feels like more hands-on leadership. Um, and for me, it sort of happened overnight. One point I had like a team of 50, and I was like, this is amazing, really. And also I felt like I'd really become competent at it. I thought now I'm quite good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then all of a sudden it changes and you're in a new job. And I quite like how the army forces you to move on. Yeah, but at that time, well, to have new experiences, but then sometimes you land a job that you're not particularly fond of, and you're like, oh no, hold on. Now I'm just a small, really small cog at this, and before it felt a bit more important, I
guess. So just to move on to I guess a question that I get a lot, which I feel quite uncomfortable answering, so I usually just stay quiet on the subject, is your experience in the military as a woman. You know, we've spoken about sort of having female guests on the podcast, and it's something that I'm definitely uh aware of. But I think my personal experience, I guess in life, which is probably why I stay quite quiet on it anyway, is I'm the youngest of four boys. I went to an all-boys school, I then joined the infantry at a time where it was uh a male-only environment. There were attached arms, but um, you know, it's still it's still very male-oriented. What was that experience like for you? And I guess you've also got the fact that you left for a period and have rejoined, so might have seen a lot of change in that time, however, you want to tackle this one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, things have improved for women. That's that's what I can say from the outset. Uh, I have seen a difference in the eight years that I've been back in the military, which I think is very positive. There's obviously still a lot that can be done, and you're always going to get those bad eggs, um, no matter what you're in. So I think it's just more awareness uh and being able to call it out, which women should be empowered to do. When I first joined, we were very limited in what we could go in. So there was only various, various regiments, and we we we understood that. So actually, we were quite limited, but actually I quite liked being attached to the cavalry, for instance, where I was normally the only the only female. And I think we as women then we almost had to kind of prove ourselves twice over, which maybe some of the men didn't didn't feel that way, but we almost had to doubly prove we had to we had a right to be there. Um and I think we obviously stood our ground most of the time, as well, especially me, because I was stubborn. Um so I think it was defin definitely different, and and some of my uh there was 21 females that passed out with me uh at Santos, so it was quite a small platoon, and they all had different experiences no matter what where they went. Mine were the majority very positive. I did have one particular boss who disliked women. Um I was I was a new captain coming into the squadron. There was another two male captains in the squadron. He basically said, Well, you're off in your captain's course. The other two guys, they got top student. So if you don't get top student, there's no point in coming back. And I'm like, okay, yeah, cool. So I got top student, uh, and I also got uh a letter of recommendation from the core colonel saying this is a future star of the core. So I basically came back, put them both on his desk, and he said nothing.
SPEAKER_02How strange.
SPEAKER_01Um so I don't know, uh obviously that that that was a tricky work relationship to navigate. Um but you know you only almost have to put up for it with it for a little while. Um must get frustrating though, right? Well I did because he was he was seen as a uh none of the guys realized this. Um and I think he was seen as a a man's man and he you know was into rugby and drinking and all those other sort of manly things. So no one saw it, everyone thought he was a good bloke, and I'm like, nope. Yeah, there's there's something wrong there, uh, especially when there was other females in the squadron. Um so it was just it was a tricky time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um it really see, yeah. I I went through Sandhurst um and we had a mixed platoon, and I know back in the day that that there was it was separate. And I think, well, obviously it's the right thing to do. Um, but I also think that what was really interesting about going through that is uh I sort of said earlier that probably the best attack we did, offensive action, was from a female that commissioned into the ETS, which you definitely wouldn't associate the ETS with with you know punchy uh infantry tactics. Um, but it was, and actually what we saw was a different way of thinking about problems, which, you know, I sort of see it on maybe this is just because I post a lot online and you see a lot of crap out there, to be honest, uh, in comment sections, but about uh sort of a quality and diversity, quotas and all this type of stuff. But it's like if you're still of the frame of mind of thinking that that can't be a positive for a team, um, then then that is like really backwards. And I think, you know, I think it was about 2021 or so when um women were allowed to join the combat arm. And it was interesting because I was at Catarick at the time and I was working with people that had spent their entire career at that point up into the infantry, and we were then having to accommodate a think about females joining the platoon and how that would look. And there was loads of stuff that we hadn't considered, obviously, because we just hadn't considered it, but none of them real massive problems, just considerations. But what was most interesting is immediately some of the section commanders felt like they had to treat people differently. It was like, okay, cool, that's that's actually not what we're going for here. But I don't know if you've saw that in different environments than you went into, uh, because you would have been attached to all sorts, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I never wanted to be treated differently. I was an officer, and that that's what that's what I want you everyone to see me as. Uh, I think when we were going through Sandhurst uh in '97, there was a sort of drive at the time to have their first female Sort of Owner winner. Uh, and basically I got taken aside in in term two. I think it was because I had lots of experience, and you know, they they basically said, Well, if you can be captain of the hockey team, if you speak to this person, do this, do that, you could potentially be in the running for sort of owner. And I'm like, absolutely no way. I, you know, I I didn't think I was on par with some of the the males that were in our in our intake, absolutely no way. And I I felt it was a very political move at the time, and they just wanted a almost poster girl, if you like. And I'm like, that this is not that's not why I'm joining the army. I I'm joining the army to become an officer. Yeah, I don't want to kind of get involved in any kind of political wranglings. And you know, funnily enough, the term after me was the first female person uh well sort of on a winner. So yeah, uh, I think that could have been a bit of positive discrimination, if you like, which I I didn't want. Yeah. Um, I wanted to get it under my my own merits if I was gonna get it.
SPEAKER_00I feel like I might have seen that when I was at Castrick as well, because I think at that that point, okay, it's difficult because COVID happened as well. So there was all sorts of issues with the recruitment pipeline at that at that point. But I do remember um a woman turning up to training who hadn't passed the assessment centre yet, so definitely shouldn't have been in my platoon, which was I still don't really know how that had happened, but just like didn't didn't want to join the infantry. But I think it was the whole thing, I won't say the regiment, but this particular regiment they were going to be the number one and and sort of really pushed it. And I think the frustration I had at that time, well, two frustrations. One with people being like, the standard's the standard, X, Y, and Z, when they weren't hitting the standard themselves. That was my my main issue to be like, what are you piping up for? You can't pass this PFA or whatever it was at the time, either. Um, and the other side was just I just felt like let it happen naturally. There will be people that are way more people than I that are going to come in and do a great job, but let's not match the wrong people to the wrong job because I feel like that's that's where this could unravel. And I think from my very, very small view at that point of just being in a platoon and in a company, that wasn't handled amazingly at the time. I might be speaking out of turn there, but that's just what I I saw.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's always going to be a bit of a bumpy ride, I think, to try and integrate any any kind of new system, if you like. Um but I mean, after do after doing a year at Santos, I didn't want to join the infantry. I'm quite glad I couldn't at the time. Um, but they are they were definitely females in my platoon that absolutely could and probably were a lot better than some of the guys. Because as you said, you know, some of the some of the guys can't reach these fitness standards. It's not just females. Um that that's not an issue.
SPEAKER_00Uh and by the way, I think the people that do have an issue are the blokes that can't pass it. That's what I saw the most of. And it's like, oh, give me a break. Yeah, what are we talking about here? You can barely do your job anyway.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_01But I think I think having women definitely gives a different point of view. Um, we definitely think differently, potentially. So, you know, we might see something that that that a guy might not particularly see. So it's just having that different angle or a different point of view that might actually be beneficial.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What would you say to someone that's considering it at the moment and is kind of because I'm, you know, I speak with these people quite quite a lot with what I do now. And it's a concern that I can't really address because I I just don't feel comfortable doing it. But what would you say to someone that's considering it and is um potentially concerned that they feel like they're going into a masculine environment and that and they're not quite sure how to handle it?
SPEAKER_01So I think you know, the army's not their only masculine environment. If you went into several different businesses in Civ Street, you would find that a masculine environment as well. And I don't think you should be worried about it because it has improved so much. Uh, and people are willing to listen to your concerns if you have any. Uh and people people know how to behave, you know. Values and standards in the in the army, we we have a set of values and standards, and and people do follow them. They're obviously helpful at times, but those people will be found out. Yeah. And I think that moral courage of the chain of command to actually call these people out that are doing something wrong is what's needed. So if you see something that you are concerned with, you need to speak to someone and speak to someone that can do something about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well said. Um, we had a fantastic platoon commander join us, and she's onto bigger and better things now. Um, and it was really interesting. She was the sort of our our uh, I think our first female platoon commander that had joined our our unit. And we were in Cyprus at the time, and I remember we sort of had a mess meeting, uh, as you do, like regularly. And it was like, you know, what can we do to improve this, improve this? And I think she just commented, like, there's no sanitary bins or anything like this. Like, what can we what can we do there? And it was like, Oh yeah, of course. Like, how fucking mental is this? We're all inviting our girlfriends over, and no one's even considered this. Um, so yeah, I think you speak really well on that, and it might be a bit weird just not to to sort of I know you're gonna not gonna be bargaining. To sort of say is absolutely there are failings in the leadership level, high profile cases. That's kind of like I wouldn't say a separate issue, but that's not what we're talking about here, is sort of the the the norm experience, I guess is kind of what I'm referring to. Um really interesting.
Let's move on to AOSB. Uh everyone that I speak to says it's like the best gig. Oh they love it.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, I was there for three years. Uh I had my my second child when I was there. And honestly, it's the best job in the world. I mean, it's it is such a privilege to be in that environment and actually selecting people to go to Sandhurst. Um, it it really is. And I was always taken aback at how good the system was. I mean, this was a system that was designed in the sort of 60s, and actually I don't think it's changed. And it it doesn't need to because it it does, it does exactly what it needs to. Um, we used to review some of our candidates that we saw going through by going to Santhurst as a bit of an assurance process. So we'd go and speak to some of the commanders at Santhurst, and they would be get they would be bringing out traits that they saw within the first term that we saw in four days. Yeah. So you kind of think those tests that you do are spot on. They're spot on to bringing out that leadership potential that we need to see, um, which I think is genius. Yeah. I mean, it's great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. It's a look the more I've understood about the process um and the fact that it's recognized on a world stage with other militaries uh sort of basing their assessment process off and civilian organizations as well, their grad schemes and whatnot. Um, it's fascinating the level of detail that's put into it. Um, you were a group lead. What is that for people that don't know?
SPEAKER_01So at the time I was a captain, so we basically run the group through the tests. So um there was myself as the captain, so the group leader, we had a lieutenant colonel who was the sort of um the other member of the there was two full-time members of a group. Um, we both got different information about the candidates. I got nothing. So I basically had the evidence in front of me. That's that was all the evidence I had. Whereas the colonel, they had an interview with that person, they had a CV, they knew what their name was, they knew what school they went to. Um, and then there was a vice president above them, which was a full colonel who had a couple of groups that they were running, and they had even more information about that candidate. Uh, and they also had an interview with them as well as the education interview. So as a captain, we just had the evidence that we saw in front of us, um, which was really interesting. Uh, you had to be we had a whole load of guidelines that we basically followed, um, and we had the boards that we take all the evidence, but actually there was some we're supposed to show no motion throughout. But if someone did something funny, you you'd see the boards go up people's faces, and you know, we'd be laughing behind because some, you know, some of the situations they got themselves into, especially in the command task, were just quite amusing. But actually, at the end, when we did the actual boarding process with the full colonel, the half colonel, and and myself, we all had equal weighting on the scoring system, which actually felt very empowering as a captain when you sat there with the full colonel um and lieutenant colonel. And I thought that was brilliant. We were all equally listened to, and we arrived at those scores with the evidence that we had to actually either pass or feel that candidate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I hear you're on the empowering side. Um, I remember chatting to uh a brigadier when I um had just finished at Catarick, and he was like, How was your experience? And I loved delivering the training, I thought it was amazing. And I understand some of the complexities of instructors delivering training when they think people aren't at the standard. And I think dependent on how recruitment's going, depends on how easily you can maybe rectify that. But at the time, our uh chain of command were really supportive of our view and what we were seeing because we were the guys on the ground with them in seeing what was going on, and I just remember feeling like I have such an impact over people's futures here, but also I'm there to spot it if they aren't a fit. And it was never the fact that they couldn't shoot straight or that they weren't fast enough. You can train that, it was the character side that was like they just aren't fit for for what's coming. And you know, it's not nice to remove someone from the military at that stage, but sometimes it's like this isn't for you now, maybe in the future, or or you know, it's actually detrimental to everyone else's training at the moment. But I definitely felt very empowered about it, and it's it's interesting that you sort of said the same thing. So obviously, we don't want to go into the details of the secrets, right? Uh that's not what it's about. Um, but more about the because there's AOSBs every single week, right? So if you spent three years there, what are, and I did a re-video on this recently, but what would you say some of those red flags when you see a candidate and you're just like that's not gonna happen here? What do you sort of reflect on is some of those key attributes which would cause you concern? And on the flip side that you were really like they're good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so my main one would be thinking they're an officer already. So they they turn up and they think they're there. You know, they might have done a bit of OTC, their parent may have been in the military, they may be a pads brat, they've been brought up around the military environment, so it's like they almost think it's a tick-box exercise. So, you know, they might be very brash and and uh very overpowering in the group, um, which is an immediate red flag. And when I was at AOSB, we could send these people to Roko, Rowell and Company, which definitely took them down a peg or two. And and Rowell and Company was fantastic for those people that you could see the quieter ones that had it but just needed a bit more oomph, and those people that were far too overconfident um and thought they were there already. Those were the kind of two people we used to used to send to Rowell and Company. So I think that for one, and those people that are overbearing and are very short with a group, um, maybe they don't get on in a team. And you can spot that immediately. Um, you can see that they're getting frustrated with other people, they're not very uh they they don't bring people on, they don't involve people in the group task, they want to maybe do it all themselves, and it's like what are you doing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01What are you doing? You know, you ultimately, as I said from at the start, you're going into part of something that involves a team. Yeah. And if you cannot be a team player, and if you cannot lead the team when you need to, then maybe you should consider something else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I I chat to people about this, and I think it's very natural to get completely absorbed in the assessments themselves. But actually, if you get a group of people together on a Tuesday and by the Friday, I'm pretty confident that you could identify who's the natural leaders amongst that group, who are the team looking to when someone speaks, do they listen, that type of stuff, versus a, oh, this person's turned up again. Oh, he's still here. God, we've got to work with this guy again. You can sense that whether you're in an assessment or not. And I think it's actually those the softer skills which come out which are so important. I don't know if you sort of reflect on that as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, absolutely. And you can tell the people that command respect. Um, some of them may have done, some of them might be actually soldiers that are are doing AOS B to go on to Sandhurst. So they've had a bit of experience, but actually people they want to listen to them. And most of the time they what they're saying is good. And it's actually those people that are able to identify really good ideas, you know, because there might be someone at the back with a really good idea that gets the command task straight away, but they've got no impact and they can't. But if someone else is listening to them and they could say, actually, such and such has got a good idea, they bring them into the team and say, listen to this person. Don't take it as their idea because we'll we'll see that as well. But actually to champion those choir to people with the really good ideas and bring them to the forward and encourage people to join in. Yeah. You know, that those things are really valuable. Uh, and if you can do that, that would be that'd be really good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that that impact word and and I guess influence as well. It's it's not the idea that like everyone has to do what you say, it's just do things go better when Dan's around or not? And if that's the trend over the week, I imagine it's quite like he's piped up again.
SPEAKER_01But if you if you're influenced in a bad way, well, yeah, then that's not good either.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Are there any particular instances where you're like, yeah, that was notable? That stays in my mind.
SPEAKER_01No, I think, well, it's just some of the situations they get onto the command task on cantilevers and things, and you can just see it all going horribly wrong. Uh, and there's there's a whole group of them that sort of end up on the ground because they've they've moved the cantilever too early or they've not done what the person at the back was saying. You know, so actually listening to your teammate and not forging on, help the person that is in charge of that group task. Don't, you know, don't sort of just stand around and do nothing. If you see something going wrong, you know, speak to them and say, look, why don't why don't you try this? Or if you could see a better idea, try and voice up, but go through the leader.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then what would you say to uh to someone that you know I'm confident in saying it's pretty rare that you'd see a faultless performance, there's something that's probably not going to go too well or whatever. What would you say in that instance when it's almost inevitable, but you feel like you feel like you've just messed it up?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, and I think a lot of people feel at that, the planning exercise. I mean, as a as a group leader, I took great joy in in sort of uh questioning people of the planning exercise. Because of course, as a group leader, we knew them back to front, inside out, we knew all the timings, we knew all the distances, and we could we could get those straight away. And I think that pressure of you know, stood at the map, you've already figured out your plan is rubbish. You've already figured out that the grip plan is probably rubbish, um but you've got to stand up and champion something, and you think at the end of that you get questioned quite brutally and you think that's it, uh game over. Um but actually you've got to get your head back at the game because you're out on the command task almost straight away. So if something does go wrong, it it's not gonna be your complete downfall. So it is it is a collection of tests that will arrive at that final score. So, you know, if you completely cock up at one, that doesn't mean you've failed. Yeah, you have really got to put it at the back of your mind and just carry on. Yeah. Because even day-to-day, day-to-day life on operations, on exercise, things are not gonna go right all the time. Uh, and you will cock up. You will cock up as, you know, uh as a junior officer, and then as you move up the chain, but you've just got to almost take it on the chin and carry on. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you know, admit your mistakes, I guess. But at the end of the day, you've got 30 people that are looking at you to like set the standard and crack back on. Yeah. So yeah, imploding just kind of is that's not a good look. It's not it's not great. Um, I don't know if you can talk a little bit about what happens on that Friday when you board people without going into like loads of loads of detail. But is it a voting system? How does it work? Obviously, as a group leader, you've only seen what you're assessing, so you don't even know the names of of people or anything. How does that process work?
SPEAKER_01So we'll have a a list of sort of scores that we'll score people on, impact, influence, etc., etc. Um, and we'll have arrived at our individual scores, and basically we go through every single one of those as the three people. So the the the vice president, the the half colonel, myself. Um, and I might have graded someone uh a six because I thought they were they were above the standard, whereas someone else might have graded them a three because they saw something different to I, and then we discussed that issue.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's like a proper grading board as such.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so then we'll we'll you know the overall score might be a four because they've seen something. I've seen something that was really good. So it won't be a three, it won't be a a six, but we'll maybe arrive in the middle.
SPEAKER_00Interesting.
SPEAKER_01Um, and that's that we talk, uh it's quite a long process, and everyone is on a Friday as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Come on.
SPEAKER_01But you know, to give that due diligence of that to that inf that that individual, that's what you need to do because ultimately this is a career on the line. So we need to take the time, we need to discuss every candidate as carefully as we possibly can and arrive at a at the right score.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And if someone's unsuccessful, what do you say to them?
SPEAKER_01I say, again, take it on the chin, get the feedback from the um from the report that you'll get and just sort of have a look at where you went wrong, because there'll be some indications on that report of the actual areas where you fell down on. And then try and work on them. You know, if it if it if it is a teamwork thing, then try and involve yourself in in teamwork if you if you can. Um or if your current affairs are shocking, then you know, get on the on the telegraph website or you know, get into more worldly reading, you know, read books. Try and educate yourself if you can. There are loads of things that you could do um when you get that report. So I and take the time.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Take the time. Don't book or you know, AOSB straight away. Take the time, you know, have have a breath, really research where you went wrong and see what you can do about it, and then go back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I think sort of at the moment it's about eight, nine month wait anyway, just because there's so many people trying to get back on it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so actually it's not a quite nice time frame to you to digest it. I'm sure the initial bit sucks. Yeah, but then it's like, okay, cool, what can I actually do? And I always sort of say to people, use it as a learning moment and not a defining one. Yeah, this this is you just learn from it and move on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
I would love to move on to uh what's really exciting is the expeditions uh and the adventure side of your life right now. Um you're up to loads, so I don't know where you want to start with it.
SPEAKER_01Well, I have uh I've been on expedition this year um to Nepal. Uh so as I said, I sort of grew up in Scotland, so I did a bit of sort of mountaineering and uh and and walking and trekking and that sort of thing up in in Scotland. So I've always really enjoyed that side of life, and I think adventure training is such an important part of training. It gives you know soldiers real attributes uh and actually things that they will use in their everyday soldiering, you know, looking after your feet, being being on your feet, doing your admin, working in cold, uncomfortable conditions. Uh, these are the sorts of things you need to be happy to do. Um, but actually it's it's it's different. It's putting them in what they think is a risky situation, but actually it's manageable risk. Yeah. So um this year we went out to do the three high passes trek in Nepal, which is about 170 kilometres uh in the Kumbu region. Uh so you'll see Everest quite often as you're going around, which is incredible. Uh, and in February, it's it's minus 25 most of the time at night. So uh you can imagine and we we stayed in tea house a lot of time, so they only keep one room, so your bedrooms are minus 25 as well. Uh uh, and obviously the toilet conditions are not too cool. Um it's all frozen around the uh deep trench, the train, uh, which is not, I mean, it's fine for guys, but I had to be very careful, didn't fall down the hole. Yeah. Um, so we took a team of 14 soldiers and officers um from work and we headed out. We did a uh a whole series of build-up training uh in Dartmoor and in Wales. We did Mountain First Aid courses, we had various briefs because it's quite an intrical process of actually A, getting a place and B working through the much horrendous layers of paperwork, um, which is only correct because this was called a high risk and remote presentations, uh high risk and remote expedition. So we are we were going over 5,000 meters and we were well over eight hours away from a proper hospital. So the correct due diligence has to go into the planning, uh the medical plan, making sure we've got the right insurance with helicopter rescue, uh, and uh and everything that we did to actually get us in good order to deploy.
SPEAKER_00It's a lot going on there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then uh so how long were you out there for?
SPEAKER_01So we're out there for three weeks. Okay. Um and our sort of biggest biggest risk other than RTAs, because Nepal is crazy on the roads, but uh is of obviously altitude. Yeah. So altitude sickness can happen from about 3,000 meters, and it doesn't matter if you are male, female, very fit, uh, whatever, whatever you are, it it affects people differently. So some people are climatized really easily and some people take longer. Yeah. So we had all that built, uh is sort of um you climb high during the day and you sleep low. That's kind of the sort of premise. And you can only do so so much climbing during the day, otherwise it will bring on altitude singness.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you're basically going up and down repeatedly.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you do that anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. So, how how did that three weeks go? So you've got there and then it's kind of like okay, cool, let's this is us for three weeks, let's crack. How many of you were there? Fourty. Forty. So it's a big group as well.
SPEAKER_01Um, everyone's qualified in something, or you've got some So we had five instructors, so we were quite well covered on in on the instructor front. It was some good experience. Um, I'd been on an expedition that I helped organise four years ago to Nepal. So two of the two other people were on that expedition as well, so as instructors. Yeah. So there was a core team of three of us that sort of put the expedition together. Um, so we knew each other, we knew our qualifications, we knew our sort of strengths and weaknesses. Yeah. Um, and some of the people we'd never met before, they were from different units. So we wanted to involve as many people as we could. 14 is the cap for an Apollo expedition. Okay. Um, and we wanted to take people that had maybe never done advanced training, had you know, that could maybe go on to do their instructor qualifications and lead expeditions of their own. That's what we wanted to try and encourage. Yeah. Um, so we deployed out there, and it's incredible. So fet February is pre-season, so it's pre-the-busy season. So there was nobody there. It was wonderful. Um, so a lot of the huts that we were staying in, they were opening up for us as we were going up the mountain. Um, now is peak season, so it'd be crazy busy, uh, which would not be an enjoyable experience. But actually, in February, lovely, but freezing. Um, so anyway, we we headed up to our first high pass, uh, and a few people we'd spent an extra day acclimatising because it was a few people on the team that were suffering from altitude sickness. So that presents as sort of headaches.
SPEAKER_00And is that overly concerning at that point? Are you like this is yeah, it's this just happened?
SPEAKER_01No, that so most people don't really get much sleep because your altitude uh some people develop a cough because of the cold air, cold, dry air. Um headaches are kind of the norm. You may be dehydrated because you're you're walking, uh, it's cold, you might not be drinking enough water. So potentially it could be dehydration, but more than likely it could be the start of sort of altitude sickness. So we have to be very careful. Um, and we did medical tests in the morning and the evening. We had an oxometer that we're measuring oxygen levels, heart rate. You know, we do something called the late Louise score, which gives you a score whether you're feeling rough, whether you feel sick, or you know, so we we were doing all these testing. So we tried to be as careful as we can. Um the day we went over the high pass, we started at six in the morning. It was minus 25. We were wearing everything we owned, uh, and it was it was cold. Uh, we went off having a pathetic breakfast uh of of half an egg and a bit of bread. And that was the same for lunch.
SPEAKER_00How far were you going that day?
SPEAKER_01Oh, so we were climbing over a thousand meters that day, uh, and it turned into an a 13-hour day. So that that was a breakfast. We had the same for lunch, and we had some out-of-date Snickers bars because across the kumbu seemed to be out-of-date Snickers bars that you could buy. So that that was the nutrition for the day. Um, as we were we were going up, um one of the one of the team, they w were really struggling with altitude sickness, so they started being sick and we're like, right, should we go back? Should we go forward? Um, we knew if we got them up and over and down the other side, their symptoms would ease. So they were content and we were content that we Would push on and get them over the high pass, and that's what we did. But when we got over to the other side, we found that that side was the eastern side, and there was so much snow and ice, and we were kind of out of our remit. Um, so we had to try and get down that side as best we could, and then uh I mean it was an epic, epic day, and we arrived at the tea house that night in the dark because it was just such a long day. Uh, and that night the instructor sat around and we we had to sort of change our route because we knew the other two passes were going to be the same. So we decided that we would reroute, we would start heading down, and then we'd go up to Everest Base Camp to at least achieve something, yeah. Rather than three high passes. Um, and it was on the day after that I started becoming ill. Yeah. Uh as as as a sort of two IC of the expedition, um, I started to struggle on the on the way down, and my breathing became difficult.
Um and by the time we got down to the hut in night, even sat down, I was struggling to breathe. Really? Um, so what this was was high altitude pulmonary edema, so your lungs are starting to fill up with fluid uh and it's got a 50% survival rate. Holy shit. And uh and you had to sort of get down the mountain or seek medical help within sort of 24 hours, it could be uh it could be curtains. So that night we had we sort of got in touch with the the sort of medical officer in in Nepal because we were struggling with communications back to UK and she basically said you need a helicopter. Um but because it was dark, we couldn't get the helicopter till the morning. Fuck um uh we had lots of uh altitude sickness drugs with us, uh, but we didn't we had done our mountain first day, but we didn't know how many, you know. So on the on the leaflet it said take between two and twenty milligrams. Okay, so how much is too much? Yeah, we don't know. Uh so it took it took a few that sort of eased my my breathing. Um the guides they'd seen it obviously before and they they definitely said it was hape. Um and were like, right, okay, this is this is getting quite serious now. So I that night I basically sat up and tried to sleep. Being the only female on the expedition, I I'd had rooms to myself, which is quite nice, but I I then had to have someone in the room just to keep an eye on me, which apparently my breathing stopped twice and he was panicking during the night. Um, but survived till the morning. Uh, and in the morning I then had the latter stages of hape, so blue lips. I was coughing up pink sputum, so the blood from from my lungs. Took some more of the the dexamethidone that we had, and luckily the helicopter came in about quarter past nine, started breathing auction, down to Kathmandu, blue lighted to a hospital, uh, got seen. They confirmed that it was hape with a chest x-ray. And uh yeah, that was the end of my expedition. Bloody hell.
SPEAKER_00So, what happens then? You're just in hospital for a bit in the hospital.
SPEAKER_01I was only on hospital for six hours, and then we had I couldn't fly back immediately uh because of dodgy lungs. Uh, and basically I was just coughing up stuff for about three weeks.
SPEAKER_02And just feeling grim.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I was feeling better, but it was just the cough, and the air quality was horrendous in Kathmandu. Um, but we had to wait for the rest of the team to come back and then flew back via uh Doha on the 28th of February.
SPEAKER_00Okay, not ideal.
SPEAKER_01Um, but we left Doha about two o'clock in the morning, so we were about four four hours ahead of the missiles flying.
SPEAKER_00Um Trump flexing his muscles.
SPEAKER_01But then then got back. Uh and uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Bloody hell.
SPEAKER_01It was quite exciting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, wow. Okay. Um Blumenack, that's a lot. That is a lot. Okay, uh have you got anything else planned? Um you take a bit of time.
SPEAKER_01Well, we're obviously thinking about where we could go next, and and I do want to go back to Nepal to finish three high passes, but again, I will be more susceptible to hape, so I will have to take some sort of um maybe Dymox or some other altitude sickness preventative to try and acclimatize before we get there. Yeah. Um so yeah, but I mean I'd been to altitude before, I've climbed Kilimanjaro, went I took the Santos on the end of the second term, we had to organise an expedition, and I took our expedition to climb Kilimanjaro. Oh wow. So uh so yeah, I've been at Altitude before, but not experienced that. Yeah. And I and I think I had I had a bit of a cough, but you know, other people had a cough, but I think it was the cold, I think it was breathing that minus 25 air straight into your lungs is probably not the best.
SPEAKER_00No, no, yeah, that's rough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow. And but you've done quite a lot of uh you've got your qualifications, you've done quite a lot of expeditions, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've I've done a few, and uh and when I got to my regiment at first, you know, that's what I I wanted to do. I wanted to organise expeditions. So I was in took a team to Colorado and we did some tracking over there. I was in charge of the regimental summer adventure training down in Bavaria for a summer, which was great.
SPEAKER_00I think I booked some adventure training there once, actually. Yeah, I didn't end up going, someone else went there because I didn't move job, but yeah, yeah. That was easier to book because I think it's like always.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there was certain, yeah, there were certain huts you could book. Yeah. Um, and the regiment sort of came through every every sort of week. So I was down there for a few months, which was very nice. Oh, amazing, yeah. On the mountains most days, so it was it was great.
SPEAKER_00What why is adventure training important in your opinion?
SPEAKER_01So I think it's those those skills that you can definitely transfer into military spheres. So, you know, that basic admin, so it's essential skills, isn't it? If you can look after yourself and admin yourself, then that's a good start. Because that's what you need to do when you're on exercise. And if you can't look after yourself, then you're really gonna struggle. Um being able to look after your feet because your feet are important, especially if you're gonna walk anywhere. If you can't look after your feet, then you're gonna be probably a bad soldier. Uh so it's just those soft skills, and actually it's it's putting them into what they perceive as a risky environment, and you know, in Nepal it was a risky environment, and potentially I could have died in that situation. Yeah. Um, but luckily the team around me and me, we'd done we'd done the training, and actually I'm I'm I quite like admin. So it was admin that saved my life. It was my medical plan that uh that I rigorously tested and and it worked.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. There's probably a few times where I didn't pay, you know, a little bit of maybe a little bit a little bit of lip service to my plan, and then actually when you need it, it's like fuck thank God, that's okay. Um we were sort of talking before, and I sort of uh mentioned, you know, for anyone leaving the military, I think definitely try and get either qualifications or just experience doing like loads of adventure training if you can, because sort of, you know, with friends leaving the military and they ask for advice or anything, the first job that you get out of the military is probably not going to be your dream job. It's probably not the reason you're leaving, it's just something to sort of you know bridge the gap essentially into uh military and civic life. That was definitely my experience anyway. Um and having so there's two things there. Either you don't want to commit to a corporate job or whatever, and you've got skills and something that you could go and do what else in, or you've just got the competence to go and plan these things to still, you know, a lot of people join the army for that adventure side, and then once you leave, it's harder to get it, or it can't well, definitely for me anyway, it's harder to get it. Uh, but if you've got that background of being able to go and plan these things and go on them and it's you're used to it, I think it's easier to to still feel like you can achieve that side of life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think there is probably certain jobs out there that you would be able to get that would be able to give you that adventure side of things. So actually being able to plan some of these travel travel companies, that's that's probably what we need to go into.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, amazing. We're naturally coming towards the end. So I think I always ask uh a couple of things. Well, the first one is have you got any advice to anyone going through or considering joining, um, continuing joining the RLC or anything there? And then, but before we maybe get to that, just obviously you spent a bit of time out of service.
How long was it out of service? Twelve years. 12 years, and now you're back in service. Yes. Um, how was it going?
SPEAKER_01A failed civilian. Isn't that what they call us? So yeah, I I uh I unfortunately re left the regulars, uh, or maybe not unfortunately, because I left to look after my children. Um, but I was devastated to have to leave the army uh because it's all I ever wanted to do. So when I left, I became a charity fundraiser. So I it was a local charity that I used to run events for. So again, events, admin, organizing things, that became quite handy in that sort of charity world as well. Uh and as soon as my my children were old enough that I could get a full-time job, I started looking around, and actually the benefits of going back into the military outweighed by far anything that I could get in my local area uh in deepest, darkest Somerset. So uh it was it was a perfect option, and I was so grateful and amazed they actually took me back, and it's been fantastic, and I I wouldn't look back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, amazing. And what was it like going back into it? It felt like a bit, I don't know, returning to it.
SPEAKER_01No, it did, it felt very familiar. Uh I mean, there was obviously a few things that had changed, not and and other things that had not changed whatsoever. Uh, you know, terminology, I think, is the best best one. You know, there's too many TLAs, uh, three-letter abbreviations, but they were just called something different. So I think I mentioned everyone's gone on about CBRN, CBRN, which is uh the the chemical, uh nuclear biological um sort of training. But everyone's calling it CBRN, and I'm like, what is what is CBRN? And they're like, you would know it as MBC, right? Nuclear, biological, and chemical, right? Okay, now I know that's fine. But it was it was it was probably things like that. It was just different terms. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that happens fast. Yeah. Even when I chat to mates that are in now, I'm like, I don't know what you're tired of talking about. No, I don't know. Also, I should probably say people were always like, I didn't understand this, I didn't understand that. I genuinely try and make a point of you know, what's that mean or whatever. So people are included, but it it happens so fast in the conversation. We're going, I forget. So if someone's watching this, they don't know parts of the conversation. I am sorry, but I know it is what it is.
SPEAKER_01It is a different language. Um, so I almost had to relearn that when I came back in. And I was always asking questions. You know, what does that mean? And and luckily, um being older and and bolder, I was quite happy to ask questions, even stupid questions. You know, I I I didn't mind making myself look a complete idiot. At least I would know what it is. Yeah. Um, and that's one definite piece of advice is definitely ask people if you don't know something. Don't just sit there and and and think, I don't know what they're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because it will unravel later. Yeah. Um, amazing. And any advice for anyone considering joining?
SPEAKER_01So I think it it the army offers so many benefits. You know, if you even if you're going to do it for just a few years, I would say go for it. Because um I think it's it it is a wonderful career path. It teaches you so much that even if you only want to do it for a few years, you will take those those essential skills onto other areas of your life. So I think it's it's definitely something consider to consider. Uh, and so much so that my I encourage my son to join the army and he is he is currently in.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow, nice. Yeah, amazing. Do you join as an officer?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00I went in a soldier of male. Amazing, awesome. Great. Well, look, thank you very much. I know
it's sort of uh a bit of a trip from Somerset as well, so I really appreciate you coming on. That is it for this week's episode. So if you have questions, please do put them in the comments. Uh, I will try my very best to get back to you. Uh, if you like this sort of stuff, please do give it a like, click subscribe. You can click the bell so you're notified every time I upload a video. More conversations like this en route. So I'll try and get that to you as soon as possible. But thanks very much, and I will see you next week with a brand new video.