Sandhurst Company Commander: What I REALLY look for in Officers | Robin White

The first step onto the parade square feels like stepping into a myth. Then the kit list hits, the pace spikes, and you realise leadership is a team sport. Dan sits down with Robin White—infantry officer, veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, and former Sandhurst company commander—to pull back the curtain on what actually makes a good officer when the plan breaks, the radios crackle, and you’re on the clock.

Robin traces his path from family legacy to scholarship board, through a battalion hardened by Basra, and into the messy reality of learning in public. Two corporals asking to critique his orders. A mis‑landed helicopter forcing a river crossing on the fly. Mentoring the ANA alongside a Danish battlegroup, managing language gaps and competing priorities. A 36‑hour IED clearance cut short when a high‑threat engineer commander lost his legs and a Danish interpreter was killed. And the day a single shot hit his hand as the ANA led out—proof that what matters most is how your team responds when you need them.

Back at Sandhurst, Robin shaped future officers around four simple pillars: betterment, fellowship, sincerity, enjoyment. He explains why choosing a regiment starts with the soldiers you’ll lead and the mess you’ll live in, not a glossy posting list. He shares where cadets often go wrong—ego at the start line, switching off when not in appointment—and what separates the standouts: volunteering as runners and recce support, building models, absorbing feedback, and helping others improve. Commissioning isn’t the finish line; it’s the waypoint before real leadership begins.

If you’re eyeing AOSB, grinding through exercises, or about to take your first platoon, this conversation gives practical, hard‑won advice you can use today. Be a sponge. Ask for help. Look after your people before you need them. And find the joke in the mud—it keeps you human when it counts.

Enjoyed the show? Subscribe, share it with a mate, and leave a quick review so others can find it. What’s the one pillar you’ll work on this week?

Transcript

Setting The Tone: Humility And Failure

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You've got to remember that it's new for everyone. At the start of Sandhurst, you're at the same start line in the sense of everything from that point onward is new. It's just about those incremental gains that you can make. Don't worry about failing. Don't let that define you. Learn from it. You've achieved something pretty incredible by getting there, by getting through AOS B, by getting yourself onto the course, you've already achieved a huge amount. Don't pretend to be something or not when you get to that point. One of many examples of guys who maybe had some experience but still knew that they had more to learn. And for those who did less good, it wasn't they'd done less good. It just took them a bit longer to get to where they needed to get to. We did a patrol, supposed to be a 36-hour operation. We were going to clear a village riddled with IEDs. So went down with a high-threat royal engineer team to go and clear these IDs. We were going to protect them effectively. The Royal Engineer team went out and sadly one of the or their troop commander actually got blown up and he lost his legs. If you approach Sandhurst with that being a sponge, taking everything, learning it, then you're going to do well.

Host Intro And Guest Background

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Guys, welcome back to the Army Bloke podcast with our Lessons in Leadership series. And today I've got a guest who has deployed as at every rank as an army officer and has extensive experience within the infantry and also at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst as well. It's a conversation I'm really looking forward to. And it'll be great for anyone that's currently going through the process, whether that is joining the army as an officer, or whether that's at Sandhurst and about to embark on their first command experience at battalion, or even if you are just a leader of in any walk of life, I think you'll get a lot from this conversation. So without further ado, Robin, great to have you. Thank you very much for having me down. Really um, really pleased and looking forward to having a chat. Yeah, thanks very much for giving up your time. And uh I won't murder an intro, so I'll hand over to you to just introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

No, right. So yeah, I'm Robin White. I've served in the army for about 20 years um uh in the rifles. Um and um as you've mentioned at the beginning there, served in on operations every single rank. So in Iraq as a platoon commander, uh as a captain in Afghanistan, and then as a major in Kabul and Afghanistan towards the sort of back end of our operations out there. So um, so yeah, really interesting time operationally. And then outside of that, um, I'm a trainer by sort of background and trade. And the sort of culmination of that was as a company commander at Sandhurst um really really recently and finished finished in summer 2024. So a real privilege to do that job, really loved it, and um looking forward to hopefully giving some of those experiences to people out there.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, there's I was chatting to someone recently and they said uh what's your reflections on Sandhurst? And I think for me, going through it as a cadet, it's up there. If it's not the best, it's one of the best years of my life, without a doubt. And I I described it as magical, and I I I genuinely think it is, maybe not quite when you're going through as an officer cadet, but what was it like to go back there?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, it's it's a really interesting environment because you remember it for sort of your head down and you're involved in the course, and you forget what an amazing environment it is, and you're all going through this journey together. It doesn't matter where you started the journey, you're all on the kind of same destination, which is those those steps of old college and going up and then going out to the into the army, whether it's British Army or or critically with our overseas cadets as well. And so um going back as a member of staff was interesting because you kind of you hear someone shouting and you think, Oh, is that for me? And it's like, oh no, it's not, I'm actually in now. It's cool. Um, but I think the the the really interesting bit was was just seeing seeing these young men and women come through wanting to achieve something which which I had achieved, um, and a lot of you know my sort of colleagues had achieved, and you know, what a cool journey they're about to go on. Um was just uh it was an incredible experience to and a privilege to be there. And I said that's a cadets, you know. Um, and I think you know the the army, the shop window of the army is different from now to when I joined, and so their motivations for joining was was really interesting.

Why Join The Army

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah, that's probably something we'll get into, but maybe start at the start, that's probably the best place, right? Um, why did you join the army? What was the draw for you?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

So I I come from uh quite a strong army background. Um, my maternal grandfather was a gunner, um uh and my father was also uh an army officer, my brother was still serving. Um so I've it was sort of ingrained in me in terms of my my life more generally growing up in that in that environment. Um and and so when it came to school, university, um, and working out what it was I wanted to do, the army seemed like an obvious choice. Um, and a lot of people sort of leveled that at me, but equally, I think I probably could have been put off by the experiences that my family had had, um, uh the amount of time my father was away, um, looking at what my brother was doing, but actually going back to the shop window of what the army was offering at the time in terms of operations, you know, in Afghanistan in Iraq, um, I think was a real um was a real driver for me. Um, and so I that's that's sort of why I wanted to do that.

Scholarship Path And University Detours

SPEAKER_00 4:56

I wanted to do something that was bigger than myself. So, how did that process work for you? So obviously you had an interest from an early age for obvious reasons, wanted to join, and then how did you end up going through AOSB and starting at Sanders? What was that process like for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Yeah, so I I went through the scholarship scheme, so had a quite different journey from from maybe most of your listeners um who are approaching AOSB, but the the process of the scholarship scheme is is very similar in terms of going to Westbury, going through the assessments, um, but doing it at a lot younger age. So I went through when I was 16, through that process, um, and was successful in getting a scholarship, which was great. Um uh a bit of a double assured because I think I had this, you know, that I knew I was going to Sandhurst five years after I done after I passed the scholarship. So it was an interesting journey to then finish school. Didn't do that well on my A levels, quite frankly. Um had a gap year, which is fairly typical, and then going to university to do a course that you know I did I did politics and sociology, um, uh and which I enjoyed, but after my first year at university, I was I was almost going to give up, um, quite frankly. And I because I had this dream of going to Sandhurst, I knew that I had the place I could go, it wouldn't be an issue. And it was actually my my brother that sat me down, and he would he had he's five years senior to me, so he had already gone through Sandhurst and was and was put in commanding at the time. And he said, he said, no, you need to stick at it because you'll regret it if you don't, if you don't finish your degree. And and I he was right, I hate saying it, he was right. Um, because what it meant, it just allowed me to grow up, it allowed me to sort of break the shackles of going through a public school education that I had, which was fairly comfortable, um, having everything almost done for you. Um, so that period of growing up at university and doing all the doing all the silly stuff, yeah, but uh, but actually growing up and approaching the army a little bit older was a real benefit for me. It's not for everybody. I think you know, some people are maturer, uh a bit more mature when they're younger. I I wasn't, I needed it, I think. Um for me, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I definitely uh reflect back when I was joining. I couldn't have been one of these people that had passed at 18, 19. I just don't think I would have had it in me or understood the world enough. So I ended up doing AOS B when I was 22 and staring Sanders literally a few days after my 23rd birthday. And I didn't go to uni, but I was very conscious that I wanted to. I don't know whether it was like a self-induced pressure of like almost get more experience than what you could get at uni. And luckily I ended up in like a management position, a very small team, but a bit of management experience. I remember being quite um assured of myself when I went to ASB thinking I'm already a manager, blah, blah. Now when I reflect back, I'm like, God, I was doing no actual managing. It's really cringy. Um, and AOSS, is that what the scholarship one is? Um, I think that's probably what it's called now.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah, I think it was just called the board, or is it that is that what it's referred to? I think it's referred to that.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

That's so probably about right. Yeah, so we do actually have a lot of people, I get a lot of messages from people that are going through the scholarship. It's super selective, right? It's really challenging to get that position. Just if you if you understand or if you can share. How does it actually work? How does it differ from the normal board?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Um, yeah, I don't I don't really know if I'm honest, um, because that was my single experience. So I don't, I couldn't, I haven't really had anything to compare it with. So that's not very helpful, but um I'm sorry, Dan. Um but I think it's yeah, it is super selective, and I think it was just a like let's just give it a go.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah, there's a there's a few questions and and I I don't really understand either, but I know it's super selective. So to actually get the opportunity to go and then the army then sponsor you to throughout university as well, right? Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

So we got a the scholarship and then the bursary, so it was you know, some some money you know was exchanged to kind of keep you on the hook, really, I guess. Um, and my my mum actually was great because she sort of siphoned that money off, which enabled me to buy a car and things like that. So rather than just using it at university and whatever way I wanted to use it. Um so yeah, so it was it was good. I think you know, for anyone going through this journey and and going to university and then knowing that they want to join the army, I would say, you know, I think one of my biggest regrets was not maximum potentially not maximising that the university experience, and it doesn't have to be a university experience, it could be an experience similar, yeah, similar to one you had before you join the army, do the things you want to do which is which aren't necessarily army stuff. Um I did OTC uh and I and OTC then encompassed all the things that I did in terms of I played rugby for them, did hockey for them, and I sort of almost slightly I wish that I had maybe done a university rugby, university hockey um to sort of do something which is not army. Um because once you're in, you're in. Um and and and those things and the army will give you those things, but actually having some experiences outside um of uh military context is really helpful, and I sort of found that in my you know general life. I've continued playing rugby and I've joined local rugby teams rather than doing the military rugby because I quite enjoy meeting people who aren't in the army and having a bit of being a bit grounded, I guess. You know, yeah, definitely. So yeah, that's just one that's just one thing, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, no, I I I completely get it. When I was in Cyprus, so we were based out there, the battalion was based out there, and you know, people are gonna be like, oh my god, he's moaning about being in Cyprus. I'm really not, it was it was amazing. My room overlooked the Mediterranean, like I couldn't get much luckier than that. Uh however, you are, you know, all your friends are back in the UK, um, and your life is entirely dominated by the military. I mean, it is anyway, but it at that point where your life is behind the wire almost. You don't have any friends that you can go and see in town or anything like that. And I joined a CrossFit gym, and I could I mean I was awful at CrossFit at the time, I'm not that much better now. Um, but it was nice just to have a little bit of a mental break a couple of times a week where people didn't really ask, uh, I didn't speak amazing English. I definitely didn't speak any other other other language as well. And it just felt like a bit of a break now and then. And I reflect sometimes when we were building towards like block leave periods, that things, a leadership lesson for me actually was that I got a little bit more um, I don't know, impatient towards the end of those periods as block leave was coming. I don't know whether that's a a natural thing or not, but it was just almost a bit cabin fever that you just needed a break, come out of the the sort of you know, the hectic environment for a bit and then oh, things aren't as bad anymore and you you go back in. I don't know if that's the kind of Yeah, certainly.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

I think going and going and playing rugby for a local team just meant that I wasn't an army officer for a day, or it felt like I wasn't an army officer for a day. I wasn't leading troops, I was just you know, just playing rugby and enjoying myself rather than sort of being looked at um to sort of which is like it's the responsibility you take when you join the army as an officer, but it's quite nice having having that slight break and just being treated as Robin White rather than Lieutenant Captain Major or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yeah, yeah.

Sandhurst Experience: It's A Team Sport

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Awesome. So let's move on to when you actually started at Sandhurst then. So you've finished university, you've obviously got that scholarship, and you and you can head back to uh or you can start Sandhurst. And it sounds like you had a bit of military experience, obviously born into a sort of military type family, but some personal military experience as well with the OTC. How was Sandhurst for you if you can reflect on that experience?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, I mean I um like I said to you before we started the podcast, I've brought my my Sandhurst diary with me, and so it's been interesting reading back on that, and um and I I think I felt um it's it's never as bad as you think it's going to be, um, with a lot of with a lot of circumstances. And I think Sandhurst, I was lucky enough to have had a brother to have gone through before me, similar to you.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Um so getting some of what he had experienced. Um but having some sort of military experience, I think it helps initially, certainly, in terms of just the basic, you know, how to iron your uniform or how to pack your burger and do all do all those really basic things that anyone can actually pick up pretty quickly anyway, if you haven't had a military experience. Um so that meant that you were sort of slightly on the front foot. But as Sandhurst went on, it sort of levelled out with everyone. Um and and you know, on the flip on the flip side, you know, I was probably somewhere in the middle of the platoon in the sense of my military experience, and we had two private soldiers from the parachute regiment who had came across as as as as toms to to join as officers. And so the first first term or so, you know, they were you know, they were lead man on the patrol, you know, recogni patrol, right? It's you guys, uh, because they knew what they were doing. But of course, when it came to doing things like the estimate process and and some of the more nuanced leadership um bits of sandhurst, they they they were the ones coming to us or writing doing some of the academic stuff, you know. They were they they they were slightly um not clueless, but they they needed help. So it kind of works both ways, I guess. Um and so I think my the key thing I think with Sandhurst was it's a team sport. Um and I had a chap in the in the room next to me who was actually he was really good at polishing boots and I was quite good at ironing, so we just swapped um swapped stuff. And I don't think you could do sound host on your own. Um and I think I worked that out pretty quickly. Um because if you try and do it as a soul endeavour, um I think you're you're gonna you're gonna be up against it.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

And you need the people around you. Yeah, definitely. I think um I remember our company scientist major at the time as a rifleman, uh, remember him saying to us, uh, sort of like put his company side major thing to one side and just sort of spoke to us on a human level and was like, you're gonna find this course really hard at times. When you go back to your shell scraper your mucker, you know, that's where you need them just to, you know, maybe bitch about us or or whatever, just get it out of your system for five minutes. But you need people to come around you. And I definitely think it's sandhurst. I I as soon as you think things are going really well, it just has this thing, I guess a bit like life where something will go wrong. And I guess towards the end of that, when things start to go quite well, you start looking around being like, what could go wrong here? Like that things are things are nice right now. Um, you also mentioned that you've got your Sandhurst Journal. I think for anyone watching this, I have only recently, maybe in the last year, 18 months, started like, I don't know, reflecting and writing. And it's something that I regret not doing earlier. How often do you look back at those notes or sort of what did you get from it at the time and what do you get from it now, years later?

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I think I mean at the time it was, it was, I mean, quite frankly, at the time it was forced upon us. We had to do it. Um so um I don't know, and I don't know if it is anymore. Um, but I would encourage anyone to to do it because it's it's a useful reflection tool to go, well, this is where I was, this is these are my thoughts before this activity, and whether it be um you know defensive exercise when you're digging at a hole or long reach or one of these one of these key events, um key milestones at Sandhurst that that you might cite yourself out about. Well, write that down and then do the reflection afterwards to go, maybe it wasn't as bad as it was, or I found these bits difficult, or found these bits easy, and you can then refer back to that later on. And I certainly found it useful subsequently going to Sandhurst as a company commander um to do a sort of it's a reading from offscadet white um to the cadets about to say, you know, I've been in their shoes and I kind of can ex can empathize to an extent about what they might have exp what they might be experiencing or feeling at the time, and uh and the sun will always rise tomorrow and it will be and it'll be fine. Um so I I and I and I and I've written I've written journals for um for my tours as well. Um uh they're not extensive and I didn't write every day, I tried to write every day, um, but they've been really you know good to go back on because you forget things when you're when you're in it, um, and actually going back and reflecting on it and reading and going, oh okay, I did I did this thing and I've achieved something and I think that's that's powerful.

RSB: Choosing A Regiment

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, awesome. I think it's definitely been something that you know when I I work with people now as well, is sort of reading and reflection are the two big ones for me, you know, wider reading, just to you know, personal development and professional development, but also just reflecting more. And I think even as a Putin commander, I was chatting to someone recently and I I sort of regret not we we do this really well when we go on exercise, we have after action reviews or or whatnot. We don't reflect that much just in camp. And you are hit with some really big leadership challenges in camp, especially when you're new because you don't know how anything works. And I remember um sort of having this conversation, just wishing that maybe I took more time to reflect, but also with my my NCOs, maybe my command team, just to go, maybe on Friday we'll go and grab a broom, we'll just talk about what's happened over the last month. We've been here, there, and everywhere. Let's just take a moment to reflect and try and learn from that because it's something I try and do now, and I I feel like I get a lot from it. So, yeah, really interesting to hear your points on on that. Okay, cool. So obviously you were successful in your choice to join the rifles. So RSBs went went pretty well for you. Uh well, you would assume so.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

So I had I had the Royal Artillery and the um and the well, it was the light infantry at the time transitioning to the rifles, so I'm that old. Um and um but we were sort of anyone joining an ad seat regiment of the rifles, we were all put in a bucket to to do RSBs. We were the first sort of intake through as rifles officers before the rifles existed. Um and so I I I didn't actually do that well in the interview. Um, and I remember coming out of the interview and being told by the the the rep at the time saying, Yeah, Robin, you had a bit of a nightmare in there, didn't you? And I was like, Oh yeah, I did. Um I think thankfully I'd done done quite well on my visits. My Sandhurst Um Yeah, Usanhurst report was good enough. I think it wasn't. I mean I was never gonna be a sort of honor winner or anything like that, but I think it was it was strong enough to to get me the place. Um and so I think there's a sort of yeah, I I guess it it wasn't as easy as maybe it it it not it could have been, but um uh it was it was it was still tricky. Um but I think it wasn't just based on it wasn't just the interview, it wasn't just the RSP, it's all the other stuff I had done. Um and yeah, we were talking before about um you know if if you're if you're looking at or having a look at what you want to join in the army, have a have a look before you get to Sandhurst, because the the opportunities to do it while you're at Sandhurst are are so fleeting. Um and not that it's too late, because of course it isn't too late, but but actually if you get the opportunity to do it before you go, then then grab it and do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah, definitely. It's a really big organization. I think also just learning about the other units as well, even if you don't have any intent on actually joining them or working with them too closely, I think just understanding how they work will make you a better officer as well. Yeah. And okay, you don't have to know the details, but just what do they do? What's the career journey like uh as a young officer there? What's the training consist of, you know, phase two and whatnot? I think um it's something I tried to do, but without visits, it's difficult to really understand what that looks like for a young officer.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, and I think I think they you know, Sandhurst can't, there's no way of replicating what soldiers are like at Sandhurst. And so going on the visits, you and I remember someone gave me a bit of advice and and and I'd remember saying this to the cadets when I was when I was working there was you know, have a look at the have a look at the soldiers and and whether it be you know the the riflemen, uh privates, whatever you want to whatever whatever they whatever they're called, um look at the NCOs, um those are the people you're gonna be working with, those are the people you're commanding. And if you feel like that is something that's an organization and a club you want to be part of, then that is definitely the place for you should you to be. The second thing to look at is the mess. So look at the people who you're gonna be living with, who you're gonna be interacting with, who you can bounce ideas off. Um because equally those are the people who will influence you know where where where you might go afterwards. Yeah, the roles and the locations are important, but I would say they're secondary priority to those two things in terms of the people you're commanding and the people you're living in and working alongside. Um if you can get those two right, it doesn't really the location and the role's great, but those two things aren't, you're not gonna have a good time.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Uh and people in the army want people to have a good time in the army and to maximise their potential, and so it's kind of it's about that.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah, I completely agree with the order, by the way. I had a conversation not too too long ago with someone um who was at Sandhurst and had decided to join a unit because that's what some of his mates in Sandhurst were doing. I thought, yeah, but you know, you'll you'll stay in cons with your platoon, and I'm really close with some of the guys in my Sandhurst platoon still to this day. Um, you know, hopefully that'll continue, but you've got to choose based on definitely where you think you'll fit in best with the soldiers and in and who sort of really I don't know, that was my reflection when I joined the Royal Anglian Regiment, was I was quite lucky to go on a visit and ended up meeting the soldiers that I would go on to command and work with. And they were the big selling point. I just thought, so honest about what they thought, you know, good officers and bad officers were like, and I was like, write everything down. Um but it did sell it to me. I was like, if you guys are this honest with me, I bet you'd be really honest with me if you knew me better and I was your your platoon commander. And I think that was kind of what I looked from a development perspective. And then the mess, you know, can I live with these people? And I just thought, yes. So it it it really worked on on that sense. And I think they're definitely the two big things for me. I don't think basing it off who's going where in your standards personally. You might have a bit of a gauge, yeah, but I don't think you can read too much into it because it's also a really small pool of people.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

Yeah. And I think I think you kind of have you have these sort of organ some quite big organisations in the army and the rifles at the time, well it still is quite big, it's quite a big regiment. So you've got five battalions, and there's this so having the sort of family, you know, like the experience that you had. Um but actually it really brought home to me in the rifles when I went from five rifles as a platoon commander, had a had a job in a training establishment, and then I went back to five briefly, but then got posted to two rifles, and that was the moment at which I was like, I've made the right decision here, because I arrived at two rifles, not really knowing anyone, um, but straight away felt at home because I knew what I was gonna get from the rifleman, because same, same, you know, same blokes, same jokes was the kind of you know, um, and I knew I was gonna get from the mess, and I turned up in the mess, and there was actually four of us who arrived at the same time from different battalions into two rifles, and so and we were all in the same boat, and we all kind of and we all just got on and we all got it, yeah. And that was that was a real moment of I've made the right decision here. Um, and maybe a few years later a few years after. Um, but doing that move was was really it was really interesting.

Sandhurst Struggles

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah, awesome. Before we move on to your first experience as a platoon commander, maybe just reflected on what do you think Officer Cadet White struggled with the most throughout his journey at Sandhurst? I think that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Gosh, put you on the spot there. Sorry. No, it's cool, it's cool. What should I write that on down? Uh um I I think I had um I remember, well, so let me start. So when I went back to when I was working at Sandhurst, you have an opportunity to go and look at your Sandhurst report. So you're gonna have a look at what was written about you when you were a cadet. Um and and I think it's a lot more, um, it's probably dissected a lot more now with a lot more detail. I think back then um there was not as much written about you, and I think I um I was labelled as a bit of a grey man. Um and then uh and then I saw a in in my report, and then I saw a subsequent report which said he's he's broken off the shackles of being a grey man, which I thought was a success for me. And I don't know whether that was something that I had um you know not not sold myself as much as maybe I should. Um but equally being a grey man maybe helped helped a little bit because I could not fly under the radar but just get on with my job. Hopefully people will see me doing that. Um but actually maybe I should have just put myself out there a little bit more, uh maybe that would have been better. Yeah. Um I don't yeah. It's not a great answer.

Iraq Tour: Motivation And Training Focus

SPEAKER_00 24:29

No, no, no, it's good stuff. I I I think I have all my Santa's reports, I've got them in a folder with all my uh uh officer reports as well, OJRs and whatnot. And um it's quite funny because some of the same themes, good and bad, or you know, strengths and work-ons uh are the same, which I maybe didn't work on the work-ons hard enough, but yeah, it definitely um comes through my whole career, probably to what I do now. Uh let's move on. So platoon command experience. So I think I'm really keen on understanding this because I reflect on my own journey quite a lot, and uh definitely that first you know, six months in battalion just thinking, what is this place? Like I just don't know how any of it works. And also it's just being really challenging to not know but have to be the leader and try and get that balance of I need to learn from the people I'm leading a lot, but but I also need to lead them and how how that works. And I I've listened to another podcast later on with the Centre of Army Leadership, and uh you came and joined a pretty, you know, uh sort of punchy battalion in terms of they just got back from tour, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Yeah, so I mean it was a real yeah, so joined five five rifles, they'd just come back from Telecate when they were in the middle of Basra. Um the company commander won a military cross on that tour. Um, uh few guys had been injured, a few had been killed. And so I joined at um af after that tour. So that was they were on tour when I was at Sandhurst. Um, so going into that environment was was was really challenging because you were you were the new guy, but you also hadn't had the experience of what they had just experienced um in a kind of well, almost warfighting experience warfighting um environment. And so my riflemen were were pretty hard, hard nosed, hard-edged. And you can and if that's what the riflemen were like, you can imagine what the CNCOs are like. Um and and and they were and they were and they were pretty hard. And I remember my site major being pretty hard on me. Um we went down to the Falklands um and I remember giving me a hard time, and and I think at the time I I was pretty upset by it, but I could see but on reflection, I I can see why he was so hard on me because he had just experienced what they experienced in Iraq, and he wanted wanted me to be the best as I could be, and he did he wasn't seeing that. Um so yeah, I took that quite personally at the time. Um but I think we were so but the flip-flip of all of that was I was so fortunate to have those people who were really experienced operationally. Um, it was about then trying to get them back into a kind of routine in camp in barracks, because that's basically where you spend most of your time. But we knew that we were then going on tour. Um, and I went on tour subsequently at the back end of my time in between commander, so I had that full run-in of 18 months or so. Um, and so it meant that when I went on when we went on tour, I had a bunch of people who are experienced um already to help me, and it was great. Um, and as a company, you know, my comp the company commander at the time, uh, he's now a brigadier, um, but he hadn't been to Iraq either, so you know he we had this sort of shared experience to an extent, but um, but a real challenge arriving in a battalion, yeah, who had who had been experienced. But I remember my and I said this in the other podcast, I think, but I had two of my two of my junior COs, we were on an exercise and we did this little ambush kind of um ambush exercise, delivered a set of orders, went out and did it, and uh my platoon sergeant was away on something, so I had two corporals, um uh one standing in as a platoon sergeant and and one being such commander, obviously, really experienced guys. And um the next day they came over to my basho in the hub area and they were like, Oh, sir, can we just give you a bit of feedback on your orders? And and I was like sort of slightly blown away, slightly like, Oh, yeah, cool, like great. Because they just wanted me to be better, they just wanted me, they they you know, they wanted um, no one wants you to fail. Um and so yeah, we sort of sat sat down, had a brew, um, and had a chat about how I could deliver all this a bit better. Um, and and that and that was great, and that was a real sort of oh yeah, they want me, they want me to be better.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Um, so yeah. I think it's such I did hear you say that story, and I I sort of paused what I was doing, and I thought, what would I have reacted like in that instance? And obviously that happened, um, but you know, those junior NCOs are doing the exact thing they should be doing. They really understand that process of we've got a new boss, we need to, you know, they're not gonna be perfect when they rock up, and we can really help shape them, and we can do it, you know, in the margins. Once he's delivered his orders, we can come to him after, let the dust settle a little bit, and then come in. And I thought just the how they seem to have approached that was extremely mature, and actually they showed really good leadership to help develop you. Yeah. I thought I sort of thought that was great, and I thought in my younger years, and maybe a little bit now, still, I I tend to get a little bit defensive when I receive a bit of criticism, but actually, you're always going to get some criticism, and I think that's something I'm more aware of now. And I think uh yeah, very easily if you were like, no, actually, I'm all right, I don't need your feedback. You know, it really could have tarnished that relationship. So I thought, yeah, um, a really interesting story. Uh, and how how did that sort of shape your relationship with them going forward as well? Was it quite an open, open relationship you guys had?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Yeah, I think yeah, it certainly was. I mean, sadly they didn't, they didn't actually they then got posted, so we didn't I didn't actually have them for when we went um on tour um later on, but I think it shaped how my relationship with the wider leadership group, I guess, within my platoon, whether it that was as a platoon commander, whether it was I was OC anti-tank platoon in in two rifles, and then as a company commander in two rifles. Because you're not on your own as a leader, there are other leaders in your organization who you can who you can who you can put on and who will give you feedback, but will pick up some of maybe something if you've missed something, they'll pick it up and and run with it. And and I think certainly and certainly as a and I'm jumping ahead a bit to company command, but I think you you can replicate this at Platoon Command if you've got the relate the right relationship with your platoon sergeant and with your troop sergeant is is them saying, I think the boss might have missed this, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna pick him up in front of the in front of the the platoon or troop. I'm just gonna cover it off in a different way. And um and my site major did that to me when I was at an OC. Um, you know, you think you think you know it all, and then suddenly he was like, Yeah, I think we missed on something here, boss. We'll just do a little rock drill. And and and and you know, he took the company and did a rock drill just to kind of bring it to life for the for the guys. So um, so it's it yeah, it was the wider leadership group, I guess, was the is the kind of key lesson there about harnessing that because they are they're leaders too. Um it's not all on you, you know. And at that point, they've done it for longer. Uh yeah, and and in and in the instance of like five rifles, more experienced, they've done it on ops, you know. Um so yeah, they were like, these guys are what they're talking about, you know. And um, so and then when we yeah, we we went went to Iraq. I I had a different new platoon sergeant, but had just come off um Patoon Commodore Patoon Science Battle course, so super experienced. I had a corporal who had also been on Platoon Science Battle course but hadn't promoted. Um so he was I've obviously clearly Nick Timmins, my two IC, uh multiple two IC. Um, but two really experienced guys, and they were very close, they were they were um best men um for each other and things like that. So they were really close coming in. Um, but I would have you know what a went for me was having these two really experienced guys um who knew what they were doing and had a and had done it on ops, you know, opportunity sergeant had I think it'd been on the first telek as a rifleman and then had done it subsequently as an Lance Corporal Corporal. I think it was almost fourth or optor or something crazy. Um so yeah, yeah, it's a water leadership team, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.

Incorrect Helicopter Landing Site

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I met up with my um my old sort major uh not too long a couple of weeks back and we reflected on a story when we were on optoral seven and I delivered some some I'd say orders, but more of a brief uh I don't think full sets of orders were really required on Toral 7, but um delivered something and then uh he sort of pulled me to one side and he was like boss just so you know, like maybe it's you could do this. And I was like, hmm, I'm not too sure. And he just went, Look, I this is my sixth tour of Afghanistan, but you do what you want to do. And I was like, Yeah, we'll do what you want to do. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

You might know, yeah, yeah. And I think we and but they they also just bring it, but they also just make you not flap a little bit, you know, because you and I and I you know I recall the story. I really can't remember if it's in the other in the other podcast or not, not that matters because this is this one. Um but the um yeah, we went on patrol, uh got dropped off in the wrong helicopter, the wrong HLS. Yeah, I did to that story. So yeah, got and but actually my and I didn't I didn't say this in the other podcast, but um we uh it was Tony Bramham who was my I don't know, I'm gonna name him, um, but he he was my the full screw platoon silent battle course trained full screw and he was just like boss it's fine like just I was flapping clearly because we were in the wrong place for this patrol, uh and he was like it's fine, like this these are our options, and I kind of laid them out and he said uh these are the options and I think this is one we should go for. And and that was a real that was great because I didn't it wasn't all on me. Yes, I had to make the final decision, but he was he was offering me support and helping. Um and and it had and the option was to get on the bath group net and say, we need some boats to get us across this river.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Um yeah, I was gonna say just for the viewers who haven't listened to context, yeah, yeah. Do you want me to tell a bit of a navigational faux pas, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah, so we so we were doing so. I mean it was to it was a sort of slight rundown um or closed down of Iraq, but we were still patrolling out from the from the airbase to to sort of prevent mortars of rockets coming in. So still going out and doing that. So this was one of those patrols out on a helicopter, um, uh, and a multiple was sort of half a platoon size, you know, half a platoon worth of of guys. Um but it was any guys at the time, no film was in the infantry at that time. Um and we flew out, uh, I think we dropped it was the RAF that dropped us off. Um nothing on the RAF, it's just it just happened to be RF pilots. Um yeah, got off the helicopter, got the map out, and realized that we were we were on the wrong side of the river, the big river that we should have been on. Um and so uh that we should have been patrolling. So slightly, slightly worrying because we weren't gonna be able to then achieve the mission, um, which was this patrol, which was to deter rocket attacks and water attacks. Um so so yeah, so we kind of got in this position where we had to end up getting um there was a base with some boats down the river, also with Russels, um, a Ruffles platoon. So we had to get onto the battle group net, the big net, um uh on the on the radio and say, can we have these boats to come up to get us across this river? So achieved all that, no, no problems. And by the time we had done all that, the helicopter was then coming in to pick us up. So so we had this sort of um slightly uh crazy experience of trying to get through um some irrigation ditches to get to the helicopter, and the and it was Royal Navy pilots that were then picking us up, and they they landed on not a lot of ground to pick us up and they did a they did us a solid. But um the the lesson yeah is just check your map before you go up helicopter, I guess. Um but actually this yeah, having having you know that that corporal to just calm me down and be like, sir, it's fine, just uh just just you need to you need to kind of own it and a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Um it's the only option you've got. I think it's that classic thing of you need to only get it one wrong once, and everyone notices, but they don't notice all the times you've got it right. Yeah. Um and also I think you know, as a new platoon commander, I maybe put too much pressure on myself to always be the one who had to be right when actually I think most of my corporals could nav better than I could. Yeah, I was like, Why why don't I share the love here? Like, this is really important that we all do this. And uh we we I was in a light roll battalion, so it's so much easier naving on foot. The first time I was naving from a vehicle, oh my god, that was that was tough.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Yeah, yeah. Well, so five rifles was armored at the time, so we did a bit of a few armoured exercises and we were sort of half armoured in in Iraq, but yeah, it's it's it's a different world, yeah. It's the speed of and then trying to do it at night, and yeah, just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

I thought it'd be easy because I thought if I go wrong, I can just make it up even faster. But when you go wrong, you go really wrong, yeah. You've got to turn four vehicles around. Oh, good stuff. Um, so you deployed on tour towards the end of your time as a as a platoon commander in five rifles. Just maybe a little bit if you're comfortable sharing about what that tour was like and any any sort of lessons that that you take away from that.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, I think I think the the difficult thing with that tour was was to keep the keeping the platoon interested because they had experienced going back to the telecate days for them, you know, we're we're sort of fast forwarding two and a half years and and it wasn't it wasn't as kinetic as as the what they had experienced, and so it was trying to um trying to reduce the complacency because of the threat wasn't quite as high, we were drawing out of Iraq, um, but trying to still keep them interested. Um so and that's I guess probably where my maybe love for training came from in terms of the rest of experience I've had in the army because it was all right, well what what training can we get out of this, what benefit, and there's some good ranges there, there was some good vehicle training that we could do, there was some good PT that we could do, um, because you had a captured audience um to do that stuff with. Um but also having a you know if as you if you can having a bit of fun, and you know, we had a we had a patrol base down on the Iranian border, actually. Um quite interesting in the current political context. Um uh which we which we sort of we we looked after the Americans sort of um hubbed out of and we were doing cross-border sort of checks with um with the Americans down there. Um so that was that was really interesting, but we were down there for New Year, um, which was which was a bit wild. Um so I had yeah, New Year, I forgot what year it is now, um what year it was, but um we had new year down there, and but we had because we had had a we had a chef with us, we were like, right, cool, what what what can he rustle up? Um and I forgot what we had, I think we had a taco night or something, um, just to try and keep the guys interested, um and and try to sort of improve morale a little bit because it was it it wasn't as as kinetic as maybe they'd experienced before. Um so a challenge from that perspective, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Yeah, and I you know don't want to speak out of turn here, but I imagine they wanted it to be more kinetic.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

I think uh I think because they had a lot of them that experienced that before, they were quite happy not for it not to be. Yeah. Um but for the ones who hadn't, um I'm not saying they included necessarily, but we we were kind of like, oh, is this it? But I I think on reflection it was a great first tour, cut your teeth, um, have good you know, the all the training, all the build-up was all the that's quite a lot of the hard work was done before getting there. Um, but then some small challenges while we were there, um, to to keep them, keep them motivated and keep them going, but still providing the security in the camp and the Iranian border checks and um patrols if you got in the right place. Um so so yeah, so I think they were probably on the majority quite happy not to for it to be as kinetic, um if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

But yeah, nice, okay, understood. And then from Platoon Commander, I uh you went is it Harrogat? Uh no, Winchester. Winchester.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Yeah, yeah. So Winchester's a Platoon Commander, but just for a year. Okay. So yeah, it's quite short, quite a short, quite a short stint. It was junior soldiers at the time. So yeah, so it was sort of like Harrogate, I guess. Yeah, how's that? Um so that was that was really interesting. I um it's a mixed mix, it was a mixed cat badge environment, which sort of your first experience out of regiment of duty straight into a uh a troop, they were called troops there. I had an Ink Corps Patoon Sergeant, I had a REME uh REME RMP and a Royal Irish Corporals, um uh a mixed platoon um who weren't uh necessarily going to join the infantry, 16-year-olds, so a real change and challenge. But having come off tour, there was that sort of slight, slight sort of bravado, I guess, to an extent to be like, I've I've I've had some experience. Um what can I what kind of what experience can I offer? But clearly the team had had quite a bit of experience as well. Um so so yeah, it was really interesting to see these young young men, and it was just men again in the platoon, in the troop coming through, wanting to join the army, even though all this stuff was going on, Iraq was drawing down, but Afghanistan was hotting up, um, that they still wanted to do that was was slightly mind-blowing, actually. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Yeah, I I I sort of reflect on my experience at a training establishment, and I think that was definitely where I I realised how much enjoyment I get out of the training and development side of life. Especially, you know, yes, facilitating the training, but I think what I really sort of noticed was it's actually the softer skills. Yep, we do all the military stuff, and I'm gonna teach you a bit of the tactical side, but actually it's the development of a person, it's the improving their confidence, or you get someone, you know, you see literally certain times where you're on exercise and they think they can't go further, and then they do. It's like you see them get past that mental barrier almost. I found that really, really rewarding. I also remember at like some point, I think, because we had four sections, I had four such commanders. I think at one point like three of them were all um PSBC qualified. I was like, this is claiming only a short period, but but yeah, before they all got moved on to wherever they need to be. But I remember being uh yeah, pretty, pretty good at that point, just thinking everything's handled, but we're all good. Um, awesome. So, okay, well, I I've got written down here sort of operational experience at different ranks. I guess my question really here is um so I I did one operational tour and I think I learnt a lot from it. It wasn't a kinetic tour or anything like that, but I definitely learnt a lot about being deployed with people, having to, you know, even plan stuff back in the UK whilst you're away. I actually found that a bit frustrating, to be honest. Um, but just being in that stressful environment and having to deal with all the challenges whilst you know you're dealing with your own stuff, stuff, family back home and whatnot, and you've got soldiers with families and in that side of life. I remember sort of being quite not shocked, but it was a lot, it was a lot to deal with. How does that progress as you gain more experience and you deploy again? Were the tour? Obviously, it's dependent on the tour, I imagine, but were they more enjoyable? Did you feel more relaxed? Did you feel like the stakes were higher? How how did that sort of progress with your um experience?

The 36-Hour Op: IED Strike And Extraction

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah, so I think I mean I I so subsequently after after um Wichester went uh went back to five rifles very briefly and then went to two rifles as Oceanta tanks. Um, so the javelin platoon and did the course. We did a Kenya as a fire support group, um, which is great. Um, really, really Kenya exercises are brilliant. If anyone gets an opportunity to do that, it's it's amazing. Um, but we we then quickly re-rolled because we were deployed to Afghanistan in um 2011 in the brigade advisory group. So it was a very different um different role where we were um small teams who were doing what was called a operational mentoring and and liaison teams. So we were working with the ANA um to try and develop them. And we were um I was in a I was in a area of operations actually with the Danish. So I had this sort of triumvirant of uh yeah, the Vikings, yeah, lots of guys who bids, yeah. Um This triumphant of sort of yeah, myself, the ANA, and the Danes trying to sort of work out um those those relationships and a really different leadership challenge because I was in a I was in a sort of mentoring role to a uh Afghanistan, Afghan company commander as a so I was captain to a company commander. Um, but we were planning patrols, we were patrolling with them, we were fighting alongside them with a Danish section, um, because I couldn't go on my own. Um I wasn't allowed to go on my own with them. Um and so a really different leadership challenge because you were you you were being looked at as a leader a little bit from from from the ANA perspective, and to an extent the Danish battlegroup who we were with going, Well, you're the you're the the Brit who's attached to the ANA. And I'm like, no, well, I I am, but I'm not I'm not their company commander, this is their company commander, and it was sort of really um trying to you talk about the the sort of mentoring and bringing people on. It was trying to get getting him into the room to sit down with the company, the Danish company commander to talk about the patrol plan, what we were going to do, where we were going to go, what their role was going to be, and then him and I going away and talking about how we could do that and best achieve that. So a slightly different leadership experience, I guess. Um, but one which was was a real eye-opener of bringing my a little bit of the operational experience, a tiny bit of it was operational excuse me, a tiny bit of operational experience I'd already had, um, and quite a lot of training, obviously, on the build-up to that tour as well. Um, so yeah, so interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah. How regularly were you going on patrol?

SPEAKER_01 45:32

So we were going we were going once every couple of days, okay. And and some of the patrols varied um in terms of um uh in terms of distance and and time, um, and it was always with um it was always with uh uh a Danish, at least a Danish platoon, um but minimum Danish section. Um and I remember us um doing uh we did a patrol supposed to be a 36 hour operation um and it ended up being cut short. Um we were going to clear a village um of IEDs. There was no one living there, riddled with IEDs, so went down with a high threat royal engineer team to go and clear these IDs. We were gonna protect them effectively for a sort of yeah, it was about a 36, 40, 40 hour operation. It was quite long, and day one didn't go well. Um the the Royal Engineer team um went out and sadly um one of their well their troop commander actually got blown up and and and he lost his legs. Um and so we they were clearly not effective, we couldn't complete the operation, so it was about extracting at that point. Um and in that same incident the um the interpreter for um for the for the Danes um was killed. Um so he stood out, stood out the lane and and he was and he was blown up. So so a really tough, tough time for um for we wanted to achieve a mission, we couldn't now. Um so it's about getting out. And with the with the ANA, they were very because they were living and breathing every day. You know, we were we gusted in and out six months at a time. They were living there the whole time. And so that was a real it was a challenge to keep them motivated as well because they they were they were giving a lot. Um so yeah, so that was one particular operation which didn't quite go to plan, uh to put it to put it lightly.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, yeah. And and the challenge of just having well, different nationalities in the same patrol, different leaders amongst that patrol as well, um, and then having to obviously extract in pretty hit punchy circumstances must be really, really challenging. Um okay, cool. That I mean it's it's really I find the patrols with the ANA actually a really fascinating thing to hear because I think they're hard enough anyway. Never mind having to do it uh in a different capacity and whatnot. And I just think that from all the stories that I've heard from you know friends and and people that have served, is it's trying to get that relationship right uh and sort of developing that over time. And it does take time to foster that relationship, you can't do it overnight, and also you know, the added privilege of you're doing a six-month tour and you've got to be aware that they're not right. It it must be really, really challenging to get that right.

Shot & Wounded On Patrol

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Yeah, and I think I mean we there was a language barrier, but there were times where I'd just go over and eat with them, and and you know, there could be a big plate of rice and some bit of a chicken, you don't know which bit, it wasn't the breast or the leg or it was just it was a bit of chicken. Um and just watch cricket, yeah, because they like cricket and you just watch a bit of cricket. You couldn't speak they couldn't speak English, I couldn't my um you know, my my language skills aren't very good. Um, but just doing that was was quite powerful in itself. Um and I think uh yeah, and I mean I'll if I may tell the story of what the personal the personal story, you know, I guess, yeah, we hadn't we come to a point where we hadn't patrolled for a period, yeah, they hadn't been supplied. Um uh they haven't been yeah, they haven't been resupplied for for a long time, and and and so we were trying to encourage their supply chain to give them water, give them food and all that kind of stuff, rather than just giving it to them because it was about developing them. And um, and we so we just didn't patrol. Um, like and so and then after a period we were like, cool, let's go and do a little, let's go and do a small patrol outside of the base. Went you know, it's it was about 500 metres, it wasn't far. Um and and we went out early one morning, it was gonna be the first patrol they were gonna lead. So it was like, right, cool, you guys are leading this, so it's not gonna be NATO troops first, it's gonna be you first. You're gonna lead this, we're gonna go and talk to some people coming out of morning prayer, local mosque, not far away. Um and and I said, you know, you lead it, I'll be the first man of the NATO troops, you know. I've got a radio, you know, and the Danish behind me. And as we patrolled out of the the mosque, having spoken to some locals early in the morning, we sort of crested over this sort of bit of high ground and and a shot came in. A single shot, single round came in, uh, and we all hit the deck, and it was and it was you know, it was sort of like, well, what's going on here? We hadn't been on patrol for about a week or so, so sort of getting used to getting used to that again. Um, and quite quickly I realised that I'd been I was the one who'd been shot, um, which is a bit mad because you never think it's gonna happen to you. You know, you think you kind of think you're bulletproof, um, and you know, really minor injury, nothing, you know, it wasn't wasn't super serious. But what was amazing about that incident was how everyone everyone else reacted. And so when the chips were down, which they were at that point for me personally, it was how everyone else around me reacted to what had happened. Um, and you know, my interpreter was sort of running around a little bit, slightly, slightly worried about what's going on, and a medic who was two or three people behind me was wearing a helmet camera, so I've got it all on video. I can't pretend that I was a hero because I definitely wasn't, but um, but he you know he ran up, was dealing with me on the ground straight away. Um and in while he was dealing with me, a second shot came in overhead, thankfully didn't hear anyone else, but it was aimed clearly at him, probably the medic. Um, and so I think what it what it taught me in that incident in itself was how you as a leader or as anyone, I guess, you're doing a job, but it's the people around you who you who when the chips are really down that that will that will pull together and look after you. And so um, I guess for anyone out there, it's sort of you know look after the look after those people around you because when you need it, they'll look after you. Um it's not it's not it's not as transactional or maybe as basic as that, but I think it's it's something that I've definitely taken and gone, yeah, I'll I want to look after people anyway. Um, but for that incident itself, I was then being looked at, I was the one being looked after, which was yeah, it was yeah, it was pretty cool to see.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

Yeah, okay, and I mess I I imagine that the added complexity of if I've understood correctly, they're not your soldiers at that point, it's not you're not deployed with rifle on the right, so it's it's a completely different set of circumstances. So at that point, had you done loads of training with those people or just got the experience out on the ground with them at that point.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

So, I mean with the Danes, it was just literally just on the because their tours didn't link in with ours, so they had already been there for a they'd yeah, so they kind of changed over halfway through our tour sort of thing. So it was so it was really strange. Yeah, they but just by patrolling with them, living with them, you sort of you knew what they were gonna bring. The ANA likewise, we you know, we worked together, so um, so so we knew what they were, um, what they were about. Um and and yeah, it was really yeah, it was just one of those sort of moments where you're kind of just learning on the ground a little bit. Um, but I know that I could the Danes who I was with, I'd patrolled with quite a few but times before. Um there was actually a he was a he was a captain who came out, he was doing a bit of intelligence gathering, but he wanted to come on a patrol. So I sort of knew that you know, from that perspective, um, that they would be um they'd be great at what they were doing, um, which was which was which was helpful, clearly having that incident. Um but I think the subsequent the subsequent like kind of lessons from that, you know, I was sadly I couldn't redeploy, the injury was so bad I got shot in the hand, it's very mighty compared, you know, pales in comparison to anyone else. Um, and I was lucky enough to still be in the army now. Um a lot of people aren't um because of their injuries. So so I I I don't take that um for granted at all. Um, but I think it's it's the I was treated as someone who had been wounded rather than as an army officer.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Um and even at that point where I was like, no, I don't need this help, actually, I did. And people were like, no, you you're gonna get this treatment because you've been wounded, this is what's happened.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Um so so yeah, so I think that's it's just it goes back to the the sort of the you know, the fellowship, the camaraderie, the looking after the people around you, um, because you never know when you need it.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Yeah, definitely. And did was that Medebaq back to the UK for you at that point?

Dealing with Tragic News

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Yeah, so Mediback back to the UK. I was in Birmingham for a week. I had sort of three bits of surgery within five days. Oh wow. Um, so so quite yeah, quite extensive. Um, and so yeah, it was all I mean, it was all general anesthetic. And so after the third bit of surgery, I I mean I couldn't get out of bed, and my sister came and visited me. Um you might want to use this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Um my sister came and visited me, and it was um it was the first time she came in, she came to see me in Birmingham. Uh and she came in and I was lying in bed, and and I was like, Oh, I can't get out of bed. And she was like, I thought you only got shot on the hand. You know, she goes, What's wrong with him? Like, you know, and she but and it was it was Halloween, um, so it was back end of November, uh October, sorry. And she brought this cake with loads of fingers on it. And she was like, Maybe I'll save that for later. Um sort of black humour, the dark humour sort of came out. Um, but um, but yeah, it's uh it was one of it was a hell of experience, and it actually took me till December for someone to tell me you're not going back out to Afghanistan. I kind of I was on the I was like, I need to I want to go back out, I need to go, I need to go. And they said, No, your your hand is is a mess is a mess. Um I lost a lost a finger. Um that was chopped off a bit later, but um, but just the yeah, the sort of structure of the hand meant that I couldn't go back out again and someone needed to sit me down and say, No, you're not going. And actually that was that was that was really, really hard. Um, because a lot of my my friends, you know, my soldiers, you know, the guys who I'd served to the two rifles were there, they were doing a different role, but they were out there. Um, and one of my trips to Birmingham, um, so I went back for a kind of follow-up appointment, picked up by the welfare sergeant, uh, drove me up there. Um, it was quite a long old drive. And as we were driving up there, he got a phone call. Um, and the phone call was to report a death um in the battalion. Um and and so I was like, uh, you know, he said, I can't retake this call right now because I've got someone in the car, you know, it was me, because clearly didn't want to sort of for me to know who it was. And um, and we got out of the car, he took the phone call, he came over and said, he said, um, you're not gonna like this. And I said, Okay, what is it? He said, just I said, just tell me. And he said there's been two people who've been blown up, and he said, one of them's your best mate. Uh uh, and I was like, Alright, okay. And it was it was it was one of the genuinely one of the best experiences of my life. So my best friends have had well, I've been told that one of my best friends had been blown up, um uh alongside a chap called um called Eustace. Um and I felt so powerless because I was there in Birmingham, you know, a little I felt a bit weak because just had this, you know, it was my hand and this is what's going on. Uh and then rolled forward a couple of hours, the incident it came, it came about that my mate had actually was in front of Lance Goldwell Eustace and luckily had been blown up, but not to the extent where he had been seriously injured. Um, and really sadly Lance Gold Eustace was was killed. Um uh and my friend luckily was fine. Um we ended up coming to commanding coming to commanding together, so we're still good mates now. So um, but but that that that one got I knew caught caught Eustace pretty well. Um he was in mortar patrillion, I was at United Tank, so we were the same company together. I remember going to uh going to his funeral in Liverpool, it was just it was it was really brought it all back, yeah. Um and wanting to be there, and it was that period where the battalion were deployed and I wasn't was was really really tricky, really hard. Yeah. Um as soon as they came back, it was a bit of a relief, yeah, quite frankly. So yeah, yeah.

Sandhurst: Where Cadets Go Wrong

SPEAKER_00 57:22

So no, I think over sharing perhaps. No, I really appreciate you sharing it actually because I think it shines a light on well, obviously you got injured, but um it shines a light on the difficulties that that many experience from when they return back home, no matter the circumstances, and obviously that's really difficult. And I think maybe it's the whole training and the fact that you know you've been trained to be there when those things sort of happen. Um, but then actually trying to deal with that on the other side and going the realisation to be like none of it your fault, but having to try and come to terms with it back in the UK, I think it's really challenging. Um so yeah, I really appreciate that actually. Let's move on to your time at Sandhurst then. So I think for for anyone that's currently there, this is going to be some real, real valuable information. Uh, and also anyone that's that's heading there, I think, um, in terms of sort of assisting their preparation. I guess my first question would be like, what's it like to be a company commander at Sandhurst?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Yeah, I think I mean it was I mean it genuinely has been one of the best jobs I've done in the army. Uh it was it's like a sort of teacher going back to your old school. Um, you know, and and so I I think I really real privileged to be there, kind of doing as much as I can to influence the future leaders of the army, what they're coming in to do, um, and actually being really impressed with the the the men and women who walk through the gates of Sandhurst to go on this incredible journey that you've experienced, I've experienced, and and and you know, with a tinge of envious you know, feeling because I because I really enjoyed that those initial moments that I've had in the army and and obviously since as well, but you know, envious that that they're about to embark on something pretty incredible. Um and and Sandhurst is one of those one of those environments where everyone has been you know from colour science upwards have been selected to be there. So you're in an environment where you've got the best people in the army who are training you to do your job, and it's all driven towards mm the cadets getting the most out of the cadet cadets in terms of them maximising their potential. So, you know, I had this I had this thing with the cadets to say, I can tell you to, I could it'd be impossible for me to say to you, I want you all to win the sort of honour, because there can only be one sort of honour winner, but equally that's a that's quite a high bar. Um and I guess it goes on you know, it goes the the four sort of things that I had in my um my sort of company ethos, and one of them was betterment. I said, I can ask you to be better, I can ask you to be a better version of yourself, um, and that's um that's kind of on you. So um, so that was something I guess from my own reflection as well, a little bit in terms of time in the army, you know, I'm a fairly average officer. Um, but it's just about those incremental gains that you can make. Um, and so trying to get the the young men and women coming through to understand that don't worry about failing, don't worry about, don't let that define you. Um, learn from it. And because we all make mistakes, we've all made mistakes, and you've talked about them in podcasts with the other guests you've had to talk about their their their hiccups they've had along their along their journeys, and so we've all done it. Um it's about then what you do afterwards is what the thing that defines you, not the thing itself.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Yeah. No, I I think it's great, and that that idea of betterment, I think sometimes it sometimes it appears as in quite a big thing on an exercise or an operation where it's a real defining moment. You're like, okay, cool, yeah, I've learned from that. And then sometimes it's just daily reading, wider reading, doing a bit of professional research, or you know, at the moment looking into sort of what's new in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine. It's it's how can I be a little bit better than what I was? And I I probably didn't do enough of that as a platoon commander. I think that was definitely something that what I saw the very best do was they just had that mindset of every day wanting to do a little bit better. Not that I didn't, by the way, but I think some people it's they don't work at that, it's just in them constantly. And I think um I wish I'd hopefully do it more now. Um I wish I'd done more of that throughout, you know, throughout my twenties for sure. But you talked about sort of those those four core pillars um as you're a company commander. Um, do you just want to go into that and and also why those four? How did they come about to be so important for you?

The 4 Pillars

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

Yeah, I think I think what I wanted to do was sort of set a set four quite relatively easy things that that anyone coming in could relate to. Yeah, you because when you get to Sandhurst and you join the army or you might have some owner experience, you you hear about the values and standards. But I kind of wanted four things that were that you could just relate to really easily. Um, and so I sort of chose and I and I changed them a little bit from when I company commander did two rifles, um, the same foundations, I guess, but I sort of wanted to change them a little bit for for what I was going to be doing at Sandhurst, and um so I sort of chose betterment because I thought that that was just the incremental gains that individuals could make, which was gonna make them better as a team, um, and being a better version of themselves. Um, so being better when they walk through the gates of Sandhurst or when they walk up steps, and then continuing that as well. So not just that's not the end of the journey, it's the it's the start really. I chose fellowship um uh um because I it goes back to the story I sort of I guess I told from Afghanistan about looking after those around you. Um and you can start that at Sandhurst. Uh you know, you're you could join the army as an officer, you've got you're gonna have soldiers that you're gonna lead, that you're gonna look after. Well, you can do that at Sandhurst, you can look after the people in your platoon, you can look after those around you. Um so why not why not learn that? And and for whatever whatever backgrounds people might be coming from, they might not have had to do that um up to this point in their lives, in their careers. Maybe if they've been part of a sports team, perhaps, but doing it day to day and it being kind of ingrained in your mentality, I think, um, was was really important. Um, sincerity was the sort of third one, and I and I picked that out from you know it's linked to back to sort of integrity, but I sort of wanted it to be a bit of a two-way street, and I wanted this individuals to be sincere to themselves, so be honest with themselves about what they're good at, what they're bad at, where they can improve, where their strengths and weaknesses are, but then just being open and honest with the people around them as well, saying, Hey, I'm not very good at this, can you help me? And it links, you know, they all sort of link back um to each other. Um I think because if you can be honest with yourself, then and your you can then be honest with your soldiers and say what you know, say what you don't know, um, and that's just gonna it's gonna sort of ingratiate yourself a little bit more with the people around you. And then I sort of chose enjoyment because I think you know no one wants in any, I guess probably in more in any walk of life, not just the army, but you know, we want people to join the army and have a good time. Um, and yes, it's serious when it's serious, but but also try and enjoy it, and it could be slight perverse enjoyment when you're digging a hole or you haven't had sleep for 36 hours or whatever it might be, and turn to your friend and your your basher buddy or back in the lines and be like, Well, that's pretty horrendous, but we can laugh about it now. Um, and that sort of I go yeah, go back to the dark humour a little bit. Um because I think that's important, and I think that that makes you more human as well. So when you stand up in front of your soldiers and you look like you're enjoying yourself, then they might enjoy it too. Um, and I think we and we try to do that as a you know, certainly as a before I company commander at two rifles and brought those four elements together, or I sat down with my assault major and sort of went through them with him and said, Hey, what do you reckon? Did the same with my comp my assault major at Sandhurst before I arrived to say, Hey, these are the things I think we you know, um I'd like you to have a look at these and you know, let me know your thoughts. And he was like, Yeah, like boss, really good. That's that's you know, that's that's something that people I think could can hang the hat on when they start. And uh the difficult bit was I guess how we yeah, how you employ those or how you actually show those things. But as staff, particularly the enjoyment bit, you know, we as staff we were professional, but we all enjoyed each other's company. Um and I think and we try to show that cadets as best best we can and um or as much as we can, um, so they could they can see that, you know, so live the lived example, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

Yeah, it's pretty obvious when uh uh you know people don't get on, right? You can't really hide it, especially in the military where you work really closely with people. Those relationships do come out, and you it's really great when you think you're part of a team and everyone gets on quite well, and you know it's difficult when when it's not so much. Um I was gonna ask how did you implement it, but it sounds like you sat down with the sergeant major and got their buy-in first and then made sure that it wasn't just some officer idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean that's yeah, rule number one is like don't don't make a decision in isolation, I think. Yeah. Because it's st that's where it's that's where danger lies. Yeah. Um so so yeah, just getting the top manager to have a look at it and and getting him to and he and he certainly had some yeah, I set uh kind of ideas and and he sort of said, right, this is areas of how we can implement it, how we can um how we can you know and and it's I mean it was little things like you know we had a we had awards at the dinner night, yeah. We had a dinner night in intermediate term, and it was sort of like right cool, let's let's let's have some awards that we can award people for displaying these values, you know, displaying fellowship, displaying um, displaying enjoyment, um, displaying betterment, um, and displaying sincerity. Um, and we we we're I would come to command of Falklands Company, so we had some Falklands books, um, uh which we gave out, and we had a Falklands veteran there who sort of presented them to the cadets. So you know, everyone hopefully would was displaying those values, but we sort of rewarded it as well um for people could see what what could look like, I guess. Um I mean trying to trying to sort of ingrain uh enjoyment into the into the into the course of sandhouse is quite hard. It was quite a challenge. Um, but um, because yeah, you're not always gonna enjoy all elements of it, but I think in reflection you probably can.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

Yeah, I definitely. Actually, there's one more on the company commander bit, which I think I mentioned before, which is how does the company commander and company sergeant major relationship differ from the platoon commander and platoon sergeant relationship? Or does it?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

So um I don't think it does at all. Um, I think you still have to have that close relationship. Um I think the the key difference is that you're both at a point where you've got quite a bit of experience behind you. Um, and so as a company commander in a rifles battalion and rifle rifle company, I had two site majors. I had so um a shot called Chris Bannon, and then I had a shot called James Eastwood in my second year. Um so Chris had done a year and then was with me. Um uh and then he moved on, and and and I knew Chris from um from back in the that Herrick story that I told. He was a platoon sergeant, he was a he was uh sniper platoon sergeant at the time. So we knew each other from back then, so he kind of knew what what I was about, I kind of knew what he was about. Um and so we already had a a relationship, having served in the same support company together, which was good. Um but having that uh aligned, sort of we we kind of almost agreed that if we didn't agree with each other, we wouldn't maybe show that in front of the soldiers, but we'd have a sit-down and have a grown-up conversation about it. And I think that's bettoons, platoon commanders and platoon sergeants could should definitely or could definitely do that, I would suggest, in terms of you're not always going to agree, but you can have a grown-up conversation about it and then present a sort of um uh uh yeah, a sort of agree position, I suppose, to to your soldiers, but just having that um I guess the key difference is the experience, I suppose. Yeah, but coming at it with with with quite a bit of experience, whereas the platoon sergeant and platoon commander relationship, you've got one with loads of experience, one with none. Um as a platoon commander, you're learning everything. Um, and you're probably being a sort of enthusiastic puppy um about stuff, and the platoon sergeant needs to needs to sort of calm you down a bit. Um uh and so so yeah, so there's that there's definitely a difference, a difference there. It's maybe a little bit more um equitable, I guess, when you when you when you get to OC salt major.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

I think that united front at any level is really important with that partnership that you mentioned. Sort of if you have a disagreement, we'll have a disagreement. That's absolutely fine. We've grown men, we can do that. Yeah, uh, this is gonna happen. Um, but actually when the decision's made and we go with it, we need everyone to be on side. And if we look like this is you know fractured, then it's not gonna communicate, you know, it's not gonna go down the chain very well at all. So I think that's a really, really important lesson there. Um okay. Well, I guess my next prompt here is um where do officer cadets go wrong? So you might want to tread carefully at this, I don't know.

The Wrong Attitude

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Yeah, no, I think um I think I think where office cadets go where off cadets go wrong is where they um you've got to remember that it's new for everyone. Um no one, it's it's pretty rare for someone to have gone, you might have some people who have maybe been injured and returned to the course, but at the start of Sandhurst, everyone is at the same you're at the same start line in the sense of everything from that point onward is is new. Um and yes, you might be coming to that start line at a different point. Some of you might have had um experience of a OTC like I did, or you might have been reserve service, or or you might have nothing at all. Um and so I think it's just having the having a bit of humility, I guess, at that start line of going, I don't know it all, um, and and therefore I kind of need to be a bit of a sponge. I think the cadets that maybe got it wrong were thinking they know it all, um, and and were maybe too um too enthusiastic about that at the start, at least anyway, but bring that stuff out where where where you where you can, and I think you know, and also cadets that just cadets that seem to pretend to be something they're not or pretend to be someone they're not, yeah, you can get a fan out pretty quickly at Sandhurst, and so you you you have you've achieved something pretty incredible by getting there, by getting through AOSB, by by getting yourself onto the course, you've already achieved a huge amount. Um and so don't pretend to be something you're not when you get to that point, because you're gonna have to maintain that for not just 44 weeks at Sandhurst, but you're gonna have to maintain that through your between commander, true commander courses, and then when you get into your unit as well. And so it's really setting the conditions about kind of what what sort of type of person you are and and sticking to that. Um, but but also your it's your opportunity to to try out some stuff as well. Um uh as a leader, you get taught some stuff, you get taught quite obviously taught a lot about leadership at Sandhurst, obviously. Um, but it was also the cadets that didn't quite take the opportunity to learn from other people who are in leadership appointments. And you know, I've got it on my notes here about when you're not on a leadership, when you're not in a command appointment or leadership appointment at Sandhurst, take that opportunity to learn from how would I do this? And and I think the thing that the thing that sort of excited me more than anything was when an Oscillator at Sandhurst, yeah, an Oscillator on exercise said, Well, I'm just a rifleman, yeah, or I'm just a bot. And that and that really that really wound me up. Um I can see myself getting wound up now, just talking about it. Um, because well for for starters, that's quite um uh that's that's quite lazy and disrespectful to the people you're gonna command when you leave Sandhurst, thing one. Um because those people you would expect those you expect your rival and private soldiers, whatever they are, to think for themselves, to act, to be an extra sensor on the battlefield, whatever it might be. And so you should be doing the same when you're not an appointment at Sandhurst. Um, it's not doing the appointment for the person because they're an appointment, and so so it's a real tricky balance to strike, but you can absolutely add value when you're not in an appointment. Yeah, um, it's not a time to just take your foot off the gas.

What Makes The Best Officer Cadet

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

That's why training recruits is so hard for corporals, especially, yeah, because you literally have to put them in their position and go, okay, you need to look at this. They're trying to do it with eight or in a training team, maybe 12 people. And it's like, well, that's why it's so hard. And then I remember reflecting on Cataric, and there's a moment in the course, and it's a different for every platoon, but for mine it was a particular urban exercise where they just started to take a knee at the right time, they just started to observe a threat. There's no threat there, but it that could there could be. And it's like, now you're using your initiative, now we're thinking, and now you're not waiting to be prompted by the the section commander or myself. And we can do our job. Obviously, we're our job's training them at the time, but our job in in the actual role is to think and plan and see what has to happen. We can't do that if it's taken up, and I think that's a great point is you know, an opportunity for you to be a really good private soldier or yeah, officer cadet, but private soldier on that exercise and offer up some information and make sure that you're doing your job to the best of the ability is is actually really screwing the nut for the guy in command. Um, I think that's really interesting. And you sort of said there about where some people can get it wrong. What did you see typically separates, you know, if people are listening to this and they're going through that process, hopefully it's because they just want to learn a little bit. Maybe it's a really minor thing, but something to make themselves a little bit better. What did you see separated the guys that won the sword or that performed really, really well versus the rest, the people that didn't not not that they didn't perform well, but you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

Yeah, I think I mean I I had a the sort of one of a winner was actually in my company, so uh that was that was great so I can say it, yeah. Yeah, and I mean he was I mean, um I don't want to give his n give his name away, but um, but he I mean I even I thought he was pretty amazing. Um and so you know thoroughly deserved it. Um uh because I I was baffled by how he was doing what he was doing, and he came with a bit of experience, he'd been a reserve officer before. And um, but I think he the way he went about it was he had that humility to be able to help other people around him. He wasn't just being it all in for him, he did the as you describe it, screwing the nut for when he wasn't an appointment, working really hard, and you know, he he he was ultimately the guy building the models, being the lead guy on a patrol, you know, doing the reckies and all that kind of stuff, um, because he absolutely loved it. Um, but but really helping out those around him, and so so I think that is that is almost the difference, you know, between those who do well just throwing themselves at the course, um being a sponge, and and again, he was someone who had and he's he's one of many examples, I guess, in my in the company, um, but one of many examples of of guys who maybe had some experience but still knew that they had more to learn and more to do. And for those who did less good, it wasn't they'd done less good, they just it just took them a bit longer to get to where they needed to get to, and they all commissioned in the end. So they all they all sort of crossed the you know, I talked about start line, finish line. It's not really a finish line, it's just a it's a waypoint, I suppose. But the waypoint being the steps of Sandhurst, you know, the the old college steps, they all got up those steps and they all commissioned, and so they all crossed that line together. Um and that sounds quite trite, I guess. Um, but I think you know it didn't it didn't really matter about good and bad, it was it was right, have they got better and they go back to the betterment point, I guess. Um uh and so yeah, so I had cadets who who who who struggled um to start off with, but then you see them flourishing, see them blossoming, and you talk about the recruits that you had, you know, starting to they they have a light bulb moment. Um but I think if you if you approach Sandhurst with that being a sponge, taking everything, learning it, then um then you then you're gonna do well. Um not trying to second guess what the staff are after. Talk about the journey that people are on and how long it might take people to get there. So it takes people long, so it might take people longer. Yeah, um, I guess is my point. And and one of the things that some of your people you talk to, I'm sure, uh I mean they may be worried about injury or not doing so well at Sandhurst and and what does that mean? I think it just means that the journey takes a bit longer than 44 weeks. That doesn't matter. No one when you leave Sandhurst, no one knows that it's taking you a bit longer to to get to where you need to get to. The ultimate the ultimate ultimately you've achieved your your aim, which is commissioning. Yeah. Um which is which is what we all want.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:55

Yeah, and also, you know, Sandhurst isn't there to make you a perfect officer at the end of it. You know, it's it's the start of your learning journey, really.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:03

Um, and then the real leadership kind of begins after. And I think, yeah, I definitely remember commissioning, and it was my brother who actually said to me, he's like, um, you know, this air of infantry arrogance can sometimes creep in. I think for me, it but it probably did it at certain points, and I was humble pretty quickly when I realised I wasn't actually that good. Um, but he said to me once, he was like, Some of those people that might not have got their choice or that did get their choice, but you didn't think, you know, performed amazingly, whatever, the penny will drop at certain points. And I've bumped into people years later, and there are people that are doing exceptionally well, that have badged and are in the special, like that you wouldn't guess that. Yeah, and it's clicked for them, and now they are really, really performing at a high level. I think it's that thing of like, it's not sandhist isn't the def defining factor in your life or your career, and it can absolutely swing either way, and you have to have that humility, as you said before, to continue trying to develop yourself and learning and and um yeah, whether that it goes amazingly at sandhurst or not. And the second point I want to make is I reflect on my own journey about that. And when you were talking about the guy that won the sword that was trying to do these extra little bits and pieces, you know, I'm pretty open that my junior term was a bit of a car crash. Uh, and I felt like there was a mountain to climb, and there was really. And in the intermediate term, I remember I just managed to really get on top of it and I did the small things really well, which was I wanted, you know, just six-section battle drills, just writing them out over again, principles of all, whatever that is, battle procedure, just trying to really learn them so that I could think slightly quicker in the moment, slightly faster in the moment. That helped me a lot. And then the other things I did, which you've just reminded me, because I always tell people that bit, but I forget the other bit is I offered myself up when I wasn't in command way more. Runner, um, on recis, whatever it was, because all of a sudden I wasn't just the well, I say just, you know what I mean. I wasn't the private soldier that was observing his arcs. I was with the platoon commander or with the OC, and I suddenly had better situational awareness and I understood the processes, and that that really slowed me down in the junior term because I didn't have a platoon, I didn't have any command appointment until I deployed his platoon commander on that final exercise. And I was just like, I don't know how any of this works. I've only ever observed my arcs this way. Uh, and I thought I need to rectify that, and I'm only gonna get one more shot at this appointment. That's not enough for me, so I need to do more, and it really did change. I think, yeah, it prompted my memory there of no wonder this guy had like a better chance to win the sword if he was trying to go on everything because he's got a better understanding of how it all works.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:34

Yeah, yeah, and it made it it really yeah, it helps him out. I mean, the whole yeah, going back to yeah, your brother gave you some advice. My brother gave me some advice when I when I commissioned, and he was he was actually deployed when I commissioned, didn't miss my parade. He was in a rock at the time. Um and uh yeah, great. Um, but he phoned me and first thing he said was, yeah, congratulations, well done. Second thing he said, he said you start learning now. And I was like, Oh great. Yeah, so some 44 weeks, really hard work, and now you're telling me that it starts now. But he was and again, I hate to say you know, lesson number two, he was right. Um but but absolutely right, don't you know Sandhurst, don't let it don't let it define what you're gonna do for the rest of your career or or what you're yeah, what how how you perform because you say the penny drop penny drop penny might drop a bit later on, or you know, you don't you there's some bits that Sandhurst can't replicate, come on in soldiers, you know, dealing dealing with the issues that they have. Um but um but yeah, just start just continue being that sponge. And even now I'm 20 years in and I'm in a new job and I'm learning again. So you just continue learning, you still you still got the energy levels to to learn, to absorb. Because I don't know anything, I don't know everything about the army, yeah. Um and I don't think anyone ever does, um quite frankly. And so um I see Jess probably does, but um but like yeah, you you're always learning, and that two-year cycle sort of you know ingrains that in you a little bit. Awesome. Thanks, Dan.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:51

Well, I think that is um as we're wrapping up, yeah. I guess the opportunity to give any final bits of of wisdom or advice to to the next generation. Oh, yeah, um I wouldn't I don't wisdom would be a strong way of putting it, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:05

I think um I think similar to you, you know, we were we were sat down as a coffee before this, and I think what what what come what's come across at whatever point you're in the army or not is throwing yourself at it and making the most of what it is that you're gonna go and do. So just um maximise the opportunity that's gonna present to you, whether that be courses or whether that be sport or whether that be adventure training and the leadership challenges that you that you present. And don't be afraid of of failing along the way. It's the lessons that you learn from that failure to then when you go again, you do you get it right the second time around. I think that's kind of I don't know if that's a that's a good one, but um I guess that's yeah, that's sort of where I'm at. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:51

Well look, thank you very much for your time. I think there's a there's a lot in there, and I guess that kind of wraps up this part of uh or this episode of the Lessons in Leadership series on the Army Right Podcast. So I guess guys, if this has been useful for you, please do click like click please do click like, please click subscribe. You can click the bell to be notified anytime I upload a video. Um, all of that stuff really, really helps me out and can grow the podcast a little bit as well. Um, if you've got any questions, please put them in the comments box below. I will do my very, very best to get back to you and hopefully uh be able to answer some of those for you. So that is it for this week. We have more episodes lined up, some really, really good ones. So looking forward to bringing you that. And then I will see you next time with a brand new video in a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:34

Mate. Hey, cheers, Dan. Thank you. Hey mate, it's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:37

Really, really good. We didn't do RSP, you didn't do an hour stuff, but it's like crazy, isn't it? It goes fast, isn't it? Suddenly, but you're like.