Inside AOSB with the Vice President: What Gets You Selected (Or Rejected) - Jim Pritchett

We explore how the Army Officer Selection Board truly works, why potential beats pedigree, and how authenticity, fitness, and feedback shape success. Jim shares lessons from Sandhurst, early command, operations in Northern Ireland and Iraq, and his vantage point as an AOSB Vice President.

• selection focused on potential not polish
• myths about “classic officer” backgrounds challenged
• sandhurst shocks and adapting fast
• technical depth for young gunners at phase two
• the officer–sergeant partnership as a command pair
• operations shaping judgment, trust and decentralised command
• inside Westbury: roles of VPs and group leaders
• using feedback between briefing and main board
• common pitfalls: weak fitness, acting, overthinking
• planex basics: DST, risk and simple, reasoned plans
• how teams gel and why evidence of contribution matters
• serving soldiers and non‑traditional candidates encouraged

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Transcript

Why Selection Is So Rigorous

SPEAKER_00 0:00

When I see the process that we go through and how much effort there is involved in it, I was staggered, genuinely staggered how much analysis and how much work goes into making sure we get the right people. If you think that you want that responsibility of leadership, then come and have a go. You might decide after briefing, do you know what? No, this isn't for me. But I tell you what, you'd have learned an awful lot about yourself. You'd have met other people and you'll take it away and use that wherever you might find yourself. We get quite a lot of previous attenders, so people aren't successful on their. I don't say fail. I never use the word fail. You didn't fail a main board, you were unsuccessful because at that point, in those two and a half days, you didn't show us that you had the potential to be successful at San Tours. Read the feedback, the briefing feedback and the main board feedback, and then come and have another go.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Guys,

Introduction And Background

SPEAKER_01 0:47

welcome back to another podcast on the Army Bloke with our Lessons in Leadership series. Today, my guest has extensive experience as an Army Officer, a long career in training and development, and also is currently one of the vice presidents down at the Army Officer Selection Board. So if you are pursuing that as a career, then there will be a lot of value in this conversation, I am sure. James, thank you so much for taking the time to travel up.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, thanks, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

The starters and uh and take the time to share. Um, do you just want to give a bit of a quick intro to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, sure. Um it's Jim. Let's use Jim, because I've been Jim now since 1989, since when I joined the Army. So calling him only my mother calls me James when I've been told off. Um yeah, so let me see. I went to what was the RCB back in 1989. I know it was a long time ago. A lot of people weren't even born then. Um and oddly enough, I had my vice president's interview in the office that I currently sit in now. Full circle. I know, full circle, isn't it? Book end of a career, it's great. Um, yeah, past that. Went to Sandhurst in in the May of that year, 89. Uh, passed out in 1990, broke my leg, stupidly playing hockey at Sandhurst. So had to spend a few months on the wireless as it was then. Uh wires course at Lark Hill, and then first regiment out into Germany. So those are the days. The Berlin Wall had just come down, so the Cold War was pretty much over. Uh,

Career inThe Royal Artillery

SPEAKER_00 2:11

my first tour, and that was in 50 Missile Regiment, which was fantastic. In fact, uh on Saturday, a couple of mates of mine from the regiment had lunch again. You know, we still get together once a year. Uh, moved, then the regiment disbanded, which was a real shame. Moved to six in Germany, uh, M109s. Came back to the gunnery staff course, that's our technical instructor course, long year, a year-long course. Did uh taught on the YOs course, probably my best job in the army. But yeah, teaching YOs was fabulous. Out of Sandhurst, it was their phase two training, coming back, you know, learning their their technical qualifications was great. Um, then left, won RHA as an FOO and then as uh as the adjutant. Uh the Army Commander Staff course did that for two years after that. A couple of bits of small jobs in between, and then I commanded my battery, which was fantastic. Uh, what a great responsibility that was and a privilege to command those soldiers. It was in 3-2, so it was a UAV. What was UAVs then now they call them uncrewed air systems, but beautiful, good old Phoenix. So it had a reputation, unfortunately, Phoenix, but it was a great piece of kit. Uh took the battery to Iraq as as one of my op tours then. And then bounced into staff jobs really from there. Um at DLO, which uh which was great on the light armoured systems IPT. So that was the point where we were putting uh Warrior 432, CVRT, Viking, etc., into Afghanistan and Iraq. So all the UOR stuff we were working on. Very, very rewarding activity that was. Um, and then another stuff, a few staff jobs. Um, picked up Lieutenant Colonel, having been at DSTL, picked up Lieutenant Colonel, chief instructor at the School of Artillery, so back to the school, you know, so you can see where the instructional bit and the technical bit's going. And then for my final tour, I uh asked to go to Westbury. Um because uh A, it's uh it's quite close to my house, but B, I really wanted that the privilege, I suppose, of the responsibility of selecting candidates to go to Santos. So I've been there what nearly five years? The deputy president initially, and then as the vice president for the last few years. Great. So that's me. I mean, that's 30 something, 37 years of my career in five minutes.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Well, loads to get into. Yeah, sure. I get a couple of questions when I do these podcasts. One is can we see and hear from more people outside of the infantry? We were having a coffee before, and I I'm definitely very aware that, especially my own view, is very, very infantry-centric. So uh, obviously a huge career in the Royal Artillery, and it's a massive core with massive opportunities. Yep, absolutely. So I look forward to getting into that. Sure. Um, and the other side is uh, can you use less abbreviations? And some of the stuff you said there, I have no idea what I'm doing. I have no idea. So I'm absolutely on something. No more TLAs, right? We'll do our best, but it's also quite difficult to prompt ourselves. It is rather, isn't it? Yeah. Cool. Well, look, there's there's a lot there, and I think um uh a huge career in training and development, by the sound of things, and identifying potentials will come on to. But I think let's let's start at the start.

Demystifying “Classic Officer” Myths

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Um, why did you join the army?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

That is a very good question, isn't it? And you speak slowly so you can think, give yourself time to think. Actually, it wasn't something that was really front of my mind at the time. Um, I was working in a pub in Salisbury, I was having a wail of a time. Um I mean my parents were a bit concerned that I was going to disappear off and not go in the right direction. And obviously, you know, we had other than my great my grandfather who sort of fought during the war, there was no military connection. In fact, my my father's a butcher, so um, proper trade, as they would call you, at public school, as I was then. So it really wasn't something that I was that uh keen or not keen or interested in at that point, and then um my my mother said, you know, what are you gonna do with your life? And I thought, well, you know, I did enjoy the CCF at school and I've been to boarding school. So I applied, put my my application in, didn't really think much more of it actually. And then suddenly a letter came through the post saying, you know, dear Mr. Pritchett, you're at RCB in in March. And damn, I forgot about that. Right. Um and that's an interesting thing because in those, perhaps those days, were we that I wasn't prepared for RCB, as it was now at the AOSB. Definitely wasn't prepared for it. Um I knew what was going on in the world, living working in the pub, there's loads of papers, I was reading what was going on and talked to people. I kept fit, um, went to the gym every day. But other than that, really, it was quite a shock to me, RCB. Um so that was the the the the kernel of it, I suppose, to start. And then of course, once I got to Santos, then I realised probably this is where I actually fit. I I fit here, I belong. I I like the people, I like the the way people are, that that camaraderie, that friendship, that everybody's working together towards a common goal. Um and that's probably why I think I joined. And actually, Dan, you know, it's not till later on in a career that you start realizing perhaps how much you've enjoyed what you've done and why you actually you you you end up where you were. Um so it's a difficult one for me to answer, and you know, it's one of the questions that people expect to be asked at Worksbury, isn't it? Yeah. Why do you want to join the army? It won't be as obvious as that, I can guarantee you that. And we won't say, so tell me, young man, why do you want to join the army? Not gonna do that. But we do understand what it is you you're looking for. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Okay, interesting. There's um there's there's actually some really interesting stuff there, which is I guess kind of similar to myself on the fact that I wouldn't so my brother served as an officer. Apart from that, and my uncle was uh um got up to W1 in the Royal Engineers, but apart from that,

How Briefing Evolved

SPEAKER_01 7:53

we don't have like a huge family of service personnel, and I definitely wouldn't say that I'm from a classic officer background. Meaning, and it sounds like that seems like you know, if if you wade through some of the comments here, it's the classic, oh classic officer, blah blah. And I'm just or you know, born into extreme wealth, and I'm like, Absolutely. Why wasn't I then?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

No, I certainly wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Um and but it's interesting, you know. I did a very well very short career in terms of you, but you obviously still going as well. What's your been your perspective on that classic officer background, if there is one? How have you felt that journey? And you said sort of you got to Sandhurst and you felt like you belonged there. Was it even a part of it? Does it come into your thinking?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

It didn't, no. Um, and you you are going to have people at Sandhurst who have come from that background, because it's a family tradition, isn't it? Um and we do get them at Westbury, and there's no issues with that. There's no we don't have any concern um with people that are following in the family footsteps, and you'll see them at Sandhurst, and they do they do really well, don't they? Because again, you could argue they've had the opportunities given to them, so they're quite well prepared. Um, and you get to know them perhaps once you get to know them on a more personal level, when they understand who you are, where you've come from. One of the one of my best friends from Sandhurst was a serving soldier. You know, he said he'd come through the serving soldier route through RCB, and we got on a like a house on fire. But we also had uh candidates there who had come from privileged backgrounds, and we all worked really well together because I think we all understood that that the the the roles and responsibilities that we were aiming for, didn't matter where you'd come from, it was all gonna be the same. Whether you were an infantry officer, a platoon, a gunner officer with a troop, or uh an RLC officer or or a sapper, if we had to talk about the sappers, obviously. Um, you know, it made no difference. The roles and responsibilities are exactly the same when it comes to to junior officer leadership, certainly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Awesome. So you touched on RC regular commissions, but yeah, that's going back a bit, isn't it? So how how was your experience that you said sort of you uh weren't wholly unprepared for it?

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Absolutely. All I knew was it was a place in Westbury. Um I drove there and what are my recollections of it? I can really only remember two things, three things I should say from it. One, my vice president's interview. Two waking up or sitting in the on the sofa in the officer's mess on that on the Friday morning feeling a little bit sorry for myself after the dinner night. Um and three, um the the command tasks. I couldn't tell you which one I did. And I've got my RCB report here and it doesn't say which one I did, so I have no idea which one I did. Those are the three things I remember, but I also remember everybody was so keen, everybody was really wanted to do well when it came to Westbury. And maybe being not underprepared, but not as well prepared helped. I don't know. I got through. Um clearly, because I'm still set here 37 odd years later. Um, but if I know what I know now, um, then I think you know that um that attitude wouldn't have worked now. Yeah just pitching up and having to go, you're gonna struggle, you're gonna you're gonna have have have some challenges. I mean we don't forget, we've got the processes, haven't we, of briefing followed by a main board. So there's an opportunity. Briefing didn't exist when I went through. I was gonna ask you. No, no, briefing was uh each regiment at a pre-RCB, so sponsored by the gunners or the the RTR or whoever, they ran their own little sort of week-long course at Willich or at Bovington with their cadets to try and help prepare them. So briefing didn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

This is what I hear is termed as phase zero.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Kind of, I think, yeah. Yeah. I mean it was it was called the pre-RCB in my day. I went to um Bovington actually.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

I was sponsored by the Royal Tank Regiment, even though I'm uh the gunner cat badge now. Um, and that's where that's how you prepared for it, and they did their best to get you ready for it. But it was so hit and miss, that was the problem. Some some regiments really put the effort in, others go and have a go, see what happens. And that's why I think briefing was brought in to try and level the playing field a bit and give everybody an opportunity to have a go, get some instruction, a bit of teaching, uh, a bit of feedback as well before they then came back for a main board.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, we've been sort of chatting before about the the briefing reports, and I think that definitely didn't exist when I went through, and it you sort of just left guessing a little bit about okay, well, I've paused and I'm on to the next bit, but I don't really know what I should do, just apart from my own personal reflection on what I think I did well, but now it's in black and white, and I think that's super helpful for people.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

It is, it is, and you know, the group leaders that write those reports and the vice presidents that check them, they they put a lot of time and effort into getting it right. It's it's not a template, it's each each candidate gets their own specific feedback on how we've observed them during that briefing phase. We won't necessarily say what you need to improve or how to improve, but this is the areas that we felt you weren't firing all cylinders, if you like. So you go away and find out what is it you think you need to do before you come back for your main board. So we do take a lot of time to write those reports, and it's key, you know, from a candidate's perspective to read what we say. Yeah. Even if you get a cat one, even if you, you know, there was we felt great, you know, you should be okay at the main board. Hubris is a dangerous thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 13:09

I I spoke with a parent recently, actually, a dad, and um who was sort of just reaching out, inquiring about something for his son. Uh, and I think his son's at that classic point of finishing his A levels, not quite sure which way to go. And I reflect on that because I had no idea what way I wanted to really go at that age. Um, definitely wouldn't have passed AOSB at that age either. Um, but he he said that he didn't he's had a full career in the police. Um, but he said that he did go down in whether it was RCB then or ASB, I can't quite remember. But he said, what a fascinating learning experience. Yeah. Just to identify a bit more about yourself and put yourself through a rigorous process. Um, and you know, back then when if you didn't get a report, you still had that understanding of okay, I thought I was good at this, maybe I'm not as good as I thought.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Absolutely. And that's true. Even if you're not successful at briefing, even if you decide not to carry on, you'll learn so much about yourself, about your strengths and weaknesses, obviously, Dan, um, and where you can improve. And I would I would encourage anybody that thinks that this is something they want to have a go at and they're not sure, can never go at briefing. You know, there's not a huge amount of preparation you need to do for briefing. Um, but I can go into you know a bit more about where you ought to look, a bit of psychometrics, perhaps, a bit of what's going on in the world, you know. Um you're gonna be asked to talk about something, aren't you? We all know that that all that information's on the internet, we're not sort of hiding that information away, but you know, we're not gonna ask you to talk about why you think Genghis Khan sort of conquered half the world, something perhaps a little bit more recent, but um and have an opinion on it as well. Be able to sort of argue an opinion to say this is why I think this is good or this is bad. Um, and we'll talk about fitness, won't we, in a minute, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

We'll we'll but um we'll get there.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

You know, there's there's there's some stuff, but we will teach you everything you you kind of need to know for mainboard at briefing. That's the beauty of it. So if you don't know how to tie a knot, we'll teach you how to tie a knot. If you don't know how to do a cantilever, we'll teach you that. So again, you're you know, you're taking people from backgrounds who've had that opportunity at CCF or cadets or whatever it might be, or the poor the person that's not because their school didn't do sports, their school didn't have GV, the school didn't do that. Makes no difference to us. Come to briefing and we'll teach you all that stuff. So you're everybody then's on that that level playing field for mainboard.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yeah, awesome, great. Well, we kind of have jumped forward and yeah,

Sandhurst Shock

SPEAKER_01 15:30

we're gonna do that, aren't we? I suspect. Yeah, um, okay, so that was that was RCB, but successful.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Successful. I know 19, you said. At 19, just shy of 20. Yeah, went to Sandhurst. Um, what a shock that was. What a shock that was. Um, yeah, I wasn't ready for the five first five weeks of Sandhurst. I really wasn't, genuinely. Um, I just my personal admin was utterly rubbish. Because I you know, public school, maybe, maybe, I don't know, but my you know, my dad had got me there. But didn't have to wear on a shirt, you didn't have to clean your room, you didn't have to do anything, and then suddenly you expect to do that in the block at whatever time of the night or day, and then there was a draw and the PT and the Fizz and all that stuff, you know, soldier or civvy to soldier, it's a big transition, and I really struggled. Um, you know, I've got my old Santos reports here, which I've managed to get out of the system, and what they wrote about me, it's it's uncomfortable reading, Dan, I have to say. Um, it really is. But do you know what? I look back and think, yeah, that probably was me actually. I did struggle in those first five weeks. I wasn't sure if it was right for me. I wasn't sure. Yes, RCB had said I got the potential, which is what it's all about, isn't it? But I still wasn't sure. And it wasn't until that end of that fifth week when we had um, I think it was long reach, was the exercise. And it wasn't like something clicked, but suddenly I thought, you know what, I'm actually this is quite good fun. I am actually enjoying this. It's hard work, but I mean, I'm actually enjoying this. And suddenly, maybe that's that civvy to soldier bit where you breach that kind of putting webbing together is easy, isn't it? I mean, God, 58-pattern webbing. You've never had 58-pattern webbing. Anybody out there that's a 58-pattern webbing, it's a nightmare to put together. It's it's it's a proper jigsaw puzzle.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, that was one of the I mean even when he said hold up your webbing, I was like, I have no idea what that is.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

What does that mean? And that I think was the big challenge for for me, certainly, and a lot of people in my platoon as well, in in the company was and that's where making friends early is great. And that's you know, when you get a young soldier that's come through who's been through basic training that knows this sort of stuff, they can be a real friend at Sandhurst. You know, no one wants to ask the DS about, well, how do I connect that or put that together? If you've got a soldier that can help you, really useful. Because I guarantee you they're gonna help want your help later on down the line, aren't they? And the um other things happen at Sandhurst. So it was a really good time. I mean, breaking my leg didn't help. Um stupid playing hockey at Sandhurst, it was a real shame because the the platoon that was in Burma Company had really gelled together and we were really working well as a team, and then suddenly, boof, I was out for four months, then back into another company on another intake, didn't know anybody, they'd been working well together. And back the the last term of Santos as well, which at those times was was mostly exercise-based. That made it more of a challenge, I have to say, definitely. Yeah, yeah, I really did. But um, we got through it, and that's that feeling where you've been there, haven't you, Dan? You know, that passing off the square at Santos. That's over, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

I remember being stood up, and and and I think people like mates and whatnot didn't believe me when I said this. But you know, known personal previous military experience, weeks one to five. Yep. Actually, I remember week one thinking, is this it? And then the course just picks up and wow, you're just hit with everything. Navigation didn't know what that was. Yep. Um, used Apple maps up until then or whatnot. Give me a phone app for navigation.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah, that's map and accompany.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's the mills, it's like what? Um, and then uh yeah, you know, in a couple of weeks, all of a sudden you're doing some sort of night nav and you come back, and then you're spending time bullying your boots, and that's it. It's it's and it's all new, and it all takes ages, and then you're on room inspection, whatever. I remember being stood up on parade, and if it's still the same, you have uh the OC or the adjutant who calls out stuff your name and you have to march up and you answer a few questions, questions, personalities, regimental history, all that sort of thing, yeah, absolutely. And uh passing off the square. And I remember he said my name twice because I'd fallen asleep stood up. So I'm on parade and I'm just like gone, and then he's like off the cadet Russell, and I'm like, I can't and I remember my mate, my mate next to me is like, it's you, it's you, and I was like, That's me. Uh like went out and luckily got away with it. But you've never been as tired, have you?

SPEAKER_00 19:45

You've never been as tired as you have at Sandhurst to the point where people were hallucinating. Uh we were on it was that um I can't remember the name of the exercise, but the digging exercise in and it was Slim's stand when I went through it.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

I think it might have changed.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

It would definitely change, and you didn't get much sleep in the entire week. And it was the final bit, right? We're gonna patrol out back to the uh the bedicopters as they called them, didn't they, in those days? And the guy in front of me, we were on a path and he stopped. He looked at me, looked round, and then just sort of headed off in in one direction, and then headed back round and carried on. I can't remember his name. I said, Oh Pete. What are you doing, mate? I was just walking around the tree. Yeah. So tired and hallucinating. And you just don't know their levels of tiredness, do you, until you've done that.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

I remember being a point man for some sort of patrol. Uh, I think I'd done the recce the night before and then was leading the platoon in and um just took a knee all of a sudden and I was like, uh get my mate, who's a platoon commander appointment, to come over and was sort of staring at this map. And I I'm just looking at the back and he's took a knee next to me, and I've just gone, mate, I'm so sorry. I've been hallucinating for minutes here. I have no idea where there's just scribbles on the map here. I've completely lost it.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

But of course, that's that's preparing you for what might might come in the future, isn't it? So being able to operate when you are tired, when you are cold, when you are wet, that's really key, isn't it? Especially as a especially as the junior officer as the leader, the person that the soldier's gonna look to, you've got to know what your limits are, don't you? And that's what Skid Sanders is so good at doing. And and is good at taking people with no experience, with that potential that we see at Westbury and turning them into outstanding young officers that you know will be in leading our soldiers wherever we find ourselves in operations in the next six to eight years, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, awesome.

Choosing Cap Badge

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Well, um you've actually got quite an interesting experience to how you got into the gunners, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yes. RSBs, because I know you did a little thing on RSBs, didn't you? And actually, you know, candidates asked me quite a lot, um, why did you join the gunners? Um is one of the questions if I'm I ask them at the end, because I you know I see where they want to go. I was actually an RTR sponsored cadet. RTR still around, terribly sorry. But um uh and I'd been that was because the school and C C F were RTR affiliated. Um so that was I was going to join the RTR, I went out to Germany. To Hildersheim on a visit, drove the chieftain tank, that's how old I am, just before Challenger came in. And that was me. I was going to be a tanky. And I got to Sandhurst. And when you get to Sandhurst in those days, certainly, you couldn't just have one sponsoring regiment, you had to have two. So I thought, well, where do I go? Well, Salisbury lad. Lark Hill's just up the road. The gunners, I've been, you know, lived in the sound of the guns my entire life. So I thought, raw artillery, that sounds good, doesn't it? Put the gunners down, and as soon as I'd done that, the interaction started. Regimental magazine visits, um, come and have lunch with us. Come down to Lark Hill for a day on the ranges with the guns, come to Lark Hill for a party, see the YOs, see what it was. And I'd heard nothing from the RTR. I mean, literally nothing. And I was looking at thinking, this this is an organisation that is cares, wants to look after people, engages with you. And um I thought I, you know, that's the sort of organisation I want to join. And it was our it was the RSB as well. You know, the old selection board, isn't it? You go in and you prepare like crazy, and you know the history of the role artillery, and you know everything that's going on because you're desperate to join the gunners. And the chap called Bill Cornock, I think he's he's passed away sadly now. General Bill Cornock was sitting in the chair. A couple of other regimental regimental colonel was there, and and a couple of other cadet um staff from Sanders were there. And I sat down and I'm nervous as hell, because obviously you want to join the gunners, don't you? And um we talked nothing about the royal artillery, absolutely nothing. For about 15 minutes, the General Bill was just talking about golf, skiing, tennis, Salisbury, all the stuff that I thought I don't I don't get this. And then maybe there was a quick question about so you know, which regiment do you think you'd like to join? What's the capability? But that was a couple of questions. I just I just couldn't understand why we hadn't talked about the Royal Artillery. And it wasn't until I was at the School of Artillery as a white uh teaching on the YOS course, and then I sat in one of those chairs. It just dawned on me that they wanted to see whether I was the right sort of person to fit into their family, you know, a battalion, a regiment, they're families, aren't they? And you've got to be the right sort of person, the right character to fit into that family. And that's what General Bill was doing. He was saying, could I stand at the bar at two o'clock in the morning officer's mess with a beer with this person? Are they going to look after our soldiers? Are they going to be right for us rather than great, you've got the sword of honour, well done, you must have you. Actually, we want somebody that's going to fit in the family. And it is like choosing a family, you know. If you don't if you don't get the right battalion or the or the right regiment, because you were desperate to join such and such, and when you get there, you don't enjoy it, you're gonna have a pretty horrible career, aren't you? Yeah, make sure it's where you want, you feel comfortable. That's what I would say in the RSV, and that's why I end up in the gunners. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it was great, and what a great choice.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah, I I I remember um having some some potential officers come and visit when I was uh Lieutenant or Captain and I was hosting the visit. Yeah, happened a few times, and I remember um just one lad who seemed like a really nice guy, but just kind of wouldn't stop talking about these little sandhurst things. And I was like, mate, I'm just gonna let you know, like we've got you know less than 24 hours to go on this visit now. Um just get to just relax, yeah, just get to know us, yeah, and we'll get to know you because you know all those platoon attacks you've done at Sandhurst are pretty unimpressive. We're all qualified in that build. Um and and also like I'm not really learning about you, just chill. What football team do you like? What rugby team like let's just get to know each other, and that I think is And we did by the way, and it was a great bloke.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

And it was a great bloke, and now we're commanding a battalion or something like that. Um, Dan, that's that's the also the thing that you know a good junior officer, a good lead, a good soul um officer's going to do with their soldiers too, is is is that being able to be relaxed with them, not their mate, not their pal. And you know, I've probably fallen foul of that. I certainly think I have at least once or twice. But getting to know them, isn't it? Because if you put on that act, if you try and be something you're not, soldiers are gonna see through it straight away, aren't they? They and they won't trust you, they'll think I don't really trust such and such, because he's just not quite the same, he's too intense or too this or doesn't really care about me. And that's really key as well. And maybe I should say, you know, that's one thing I really want to see when when we, all vice presidents at Westbury, want to see is people being normal, being natural. Yeah, it's a bit of advice I will give them in their interview, so I'm not giving a game away. But I was always say to people, I want to see the real you. Um don't put anything on, don't don't act what you think an army officer historically, as we've just sort of covered, might behave like. Just be the be the person that you are, yeah, gives you the best chance of success with us, without a shadow of a doubt.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah, really interesting. Um, so you were successful with the gunners, yeah. And then something that um loads of people sort of want to know more about is that

Royal Artillery Young Officer

SPEAKER_01 27:00

first initial experience as a YO. So we're gonna come on to your initial troop command, but just before that phase two, YO schools. Yeah, I know some of the lads that went gunners, um, and I was miserable in a shell scraping print. Yeah, and we were having fun and they o's annexed, and there were many times where I thought I've made a bad choice.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

The thing is with Lark Hill, okay. You know, I haven't taught there for quite some time, is that's when you're going to specialise. So you've got to make that choice. Then, am I going to go add air defence? Am I going to go field artillery? Am I going to go remote crewed air systems? So that's where that phase two training comes in. So you won't see a lot of your YOs other than of an evening, because you'll be on different parts of each different courses. You might even be down in Thorny Island, for instance, as a young officer being trained down at Thorny Island, not at Lark Hill, because that's where the ground-based air defence lot are. So it's very much technical training rather than leadership training, because you know, we would assume you've done the leadership training at Sandhurst. What we now need to do is make you not an expert. Clearly, you're never going to be, most of you are never going to be an expert in it. That's what your soldier's there for, isn't it? That's why you've got the technical experts on whatever piece of equipment. But you've got to understand how that system's operated, how it's fought, where it sits in the battle space, um, what level of responsibility you've got in either deploying it or fighting it or maintaining it, that kind of thing. So it's technically quite an intense course, but there's still some good fun stuff in there as well. I'm not sure whether you still learn to ride a horse. Certainly I did, that was part of it. Really? Yeah, part of that was was horse riding. I don't think so anymore, but you get the opportunity to do this, the stables at the Arc Hill. But it's very compact now. You know, training now is so expensive, isn't it? You've done training down. You've got such little time in the programme to do it that it's it's far more compressed than it was. So it's probably more pressure on a YO now than when I went through to learn their their technical skill. Yeah. Because when you go to your first regiment, the soldiers are going to expect you to know your job. They really are expected to know your job. They're not there to babysit you, they're you are there to do your job. And I think you know, it's no different to a platoon commander, really. You've got to know the tactics, haven't you? You've got to be able to fight your platoon. Uh YO has got to be able to fight their equipment, whatever that might be. So it's really quite an important course to get right. The beauty, I suppose, though, with the gunners is you're you know you're not always going to be pigeonholed into an area. Yeah. You know, if you go ground-based air defence, then you could find yourself actually fancy doing something else. When you hit the captain level, I mean move across to a different regiment. And cross-cross-pollination happens quite a lot too.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I um I grew up in Plymouth. Uh to my commandos. Yeah, and the citadels right there. Of course, yes. My mum often says, Why didn't you go there? And I said, Well, I didn't go to that place. But um, it's what a place just to be based. And yeah, I guess that's something that you uh you get is a lot more opportunity there with places to be based. But um, just on the phase two, is that six months?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Oh, now you asked me a question. I think it's four. It's between four and six months. It used to be six.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Now, I um was chatting with Robin recently, and we sort of reflected on this, which is at Sandhurst, it's obviously leadership training, but also basic soldering and and and and basic leading uh when it comes to tactics. And it's all delivered through an infantry perspective. Yeah. So actually, by the time that we go and do PCD and then and then get on the tin commander's course and whatnot, um, we've got a pretty good understanding. Now, I'm not saying that I can do a section attack just like a section commander, they've done more of that.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

But if I had to, I know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Roughly.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

And actually, I never really appreciated how much of a difference that would be for someone that's going to one of the cores and how the pressure to utilize that four-month course. You know, we all know how to do a section attack, really. Maybe not quite the way it's taught at Brecon or whatnot, but we get the gist of it. But actually, the technical expertise, it's not a long time to learn what you do to then go and lead soldiers in.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Absolutely not. No, it's it's it, and it's pretty, as you said, it's it is intense, and you've really got to focus and concentrate on it. Because no one wants to be the one that doesn't know what's going on in a regiment. And the soldiers won't thank you for it either. They will expect you to have a level of technical competence. You know, we are a technical arm, that is what we do. Um, and if you haven't got it, then you're going to struggle in in deploying the equipment to meet the criteria or to fight that piece of equipment, wherever that might be. And they do have to focus and work hard on that course. Um, but that's part of the training. I mean, the instructors are outstanding at the school. The SAR Major Instructor and Gunneries, the IGs, they're all really, really good. They know their their stuff inside and out. And having been there for two years, now it's a year-long course to train the instructors.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Is it?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Oh, yeah. Senior NCOs and the officers as well. It might be about nine, ten months now, but it it's it's a long course. It is a long old course, um, and it takes a lot of effort to to pick up everything that you need to know to then be able to teach not just YOs, but senior NCO soldiers that are coming through on their phase two training and uh other career courses, etc.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Yeah, it's an interesting point about having to know the sort of be competent enough because I guess when you rock up anyway, you can't ask them for help on absolutely everything. You're gonna have to know some stuff. There's gonna be a lot that you don't know anyway, just by the way.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Exactly. And you're gonna learn from your senior NCOs or junior NCOs, they've been there, they've done it, they know what's going on, they've passed all their courses, their technical and their career courses. So they are a wealth of mine of information, not just technically, obviously, but also from um you know the soldiers and and the the young people, the young soldiers that you're now responsible for, they will know them pretty well. Um, and you know, ignore your senior NCOs and NCOs at your peril as a junior officer. Yes, you've got to temper that with the am I having the wall pulled over my eyes? But that's just you, a bit more common sense, but um they will help you significantly in those first sort of six, eight, ten months, something like that. They're the ones that are gonna help you keep, you know, good senior NCO will keep you out of shit, won't they? Yeah, definitely. Um they really will. And you know, and I could say this from experience and I have seen it,

First Command: What Matters

SPEAKER_00 33:10

I'm not gonna name any names, but where you know an officer was not well respected by their soldiers and their NCOs, and let them fail. Not you know, hugely fail, but they let them fail because they wouldn't don't trust them, don't respect them. So again, you've really got to you've got to work hard for your soldiers. We you know, we can come to that, can't we? About how I see that and what I think the roles of a junior officer when you get out of Santos, you get out of YOs and you're full of enthusiasm and the joys of spring. How you can help yourself have a good good sort of good tour as a junior officer, I think is really important.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah, definitely. There's that there's that piece, isn't it, of um you've just got there, and it's the first time you're gonna be a real boss. But for most of those people, it's you're not their first boss before. Yeah, and it's just like we've seen this, just calm down and just it's a chilly jets. We know you don't know everything, we're happy to show you this stuff, but we expect this.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

They do, absolutely, yeah. And and they will they will respect a good good soldier, a good officer, a good leader, they will respect you, and then they'll start trusting you, and that's really important, isn't it? In the in the roles and the jobs that we do, trust is so, so important. You've got to trust somebody, especially if they holding a loaded weapon behind you. But yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Awesome. Um cool. Well, let's go on to your initial troop command experience. Um, I'm particularly fascinated about this because I can't think of many other jobs out there where by this time you're 18 months or more into your job, yeah and yet you rock up and you know nothing. Like, I I don't, you know, I did two and a half years in a tech startup, and I think by the 18-month point I was considered part of the furniture. Yeah. Because there was so much coming and going, whatever. And that couldn't be further from the truth with the military, is you've done the year at Sandhurst, you've you've done all the leadership training, um, and then you've gone and specialise in whatever your your your sort of specialism is, and then you get there and you actually have soldiers for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

It gives you these soldiers to look after.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yeah, and then you're like, oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Now what do I do? Yeah. And you have to So my first my first regiment, it was the uh the nuclear missile regiment. So the British Army had a nuclear, tactical nuclear missile regiment, 50 missile. And um the beauty of that as a as a very young junior officer was the command was was quite a small command, about eight, twelve soldiers it was, but I was a wholly responsible for them anyway, on exercise. We never saw the battery commander, we never saw any other officer, completely independent command. And it was a real eye-opener. My Fergie Patterson was my my troop sergeant, broad Glaswegian, broad Glaswegian. I understood about every three words he said, but by Cracker, he cut he got me on the straight and narrow. He would not let me do anything that would make him look stupid, yeah, uh, or let the soldiers down, and he was really good at that, firm but fair, but he knew the boundary of officer and senior ancio. He absolutely knew that when we were at work, when it was professional, you know, sir, Sar Patterson. But if we were then on doing sport, for instance, we play golf, and then you know that boundary could could be moved. But as soon as we were back in uniform, back in the earshot of any soldier, which was good of him too, sir and Sart Patterson. And then that's really important for a junior officer to understand they are there, you you are there to help them, you are there to make sure that they are well looked after, but at the same time, you hold the king's commission. Yeah, you have been to Sandhurst, they must respect who you are. But the respect is not about the rank or the commission, it's about that person's gonna look after me, they're going to look after me, they're going to help me develop myself, my career, get me to where I want to be. And that was really good. Salt Patterson, bless him, um, was was a great, a great person to lead to to look after me, keep me out of the shit as it was as a and I was, you know, I was in the shit a lot as a junior officer, I have to say. Um, painting the commanding officer's office pink, that was one thing that we really yeah, that wasn't great. That wasn't a good idea. Is that in the report? No, that wasn't a good idea. Um, yeah, fire hoses in the cellar, that wasn't a good idea. Shamoulis into the cellar, Richard Collins, that wasn't a good idea either, was it? The things we did were great fun, but you know, at the same time we played hard, but we worked and we we worked hard as well in Germany. I mean and Germany soldiering, and that's it's one thing we can we can talk about, isn't it? Is everybody looks at Afghanistan, and you've had Sam on the podcast about and even Johnny, you know, with Johnny Mercer, and the stuff that they did in Afghanistan is is the pointy end of the sharp stick of leadership, isn't it? You cannot get any more demanding type of leadership than that, no matter what people would say, in business, anywhere else, on operations, on the front line, under effective enemy fire, with people's lives in your hands. I mean, you can't get higher than that, can you? But a lot of that leadership though, that's very few people are gonna get that opportunity, notwithstanding what might happen in the in Europe at the you know the next six to eight years, perhaps, but hopefully not. So a lot of what we leadership you're going to be doing is sort of I wouldn't say it's the it's not the mundane stuff, is it? But it's the I think it's the important stuff. And it's quite handy to I think to talk about this. You know, you've had Johnny, you've had Sam on about special forces and places like that. But as a junior officer, when you first pitch up at your at your regiment, your battalion, whatever it might be, and you're given your platoon or your troop, you know, you've got people there that are gonna look to you. Some of them are corporals and sergeants, they've been in, they've they've got a lot of experience. Others may have just turned up from phase two training. Basic straight out of training, young, young soldier, 18, 17, 18 years. I had 17-year-old soldiers in my battery, still couldn't even deploy the rock because they were too young. And they are there and they'll look to you for leadership. And and it's I think is really important that as a junior officer you get you get the basics right. Like McCraven, was it Admiral McCraven who commanded the SEAL team six, didn't he? But his that speech he gave, I think it was to Texas University about changing one life, isn't it? One small change can have a huge effect. And I think as a junior officer, if you think like that, if you think right, how can I, what can I do to help this young soldier that I've got in front of me? How can I make their life better? How can I change their life for the better? If you go in with that attitude that I'm gonna help them as much as I can, you'll start building that foundation of good leadership, the solid foundation of good leadership. It's not the exciting stuff, is it? It's not on operations, but when you do hit operations and the soldiers are trusting you because you got them on the right career course, they're on the right pay structure, their house is okay, they they got time off to get married. Um, you know, you point in the right direction of the debt councillor because of that. That's good leadership at the low level. Yeah, as a junior officer.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Um, and an example I would use was I we don't like talking about ourselves, do we? Uh pitched up in a regiment, won't you say which one, and I did my usual sort of troop commander's checks, and I went through all of the soldiers from the very youngest to um to my senior NCOs, to my sergeant major. And I just did the basic things like, you know, what career um are they in? Are they OPs? Are they the guns? Where are they going? What's their qualifications just to make sure they had the right qualification? And I came across a young soldier, he was a lance bombardier, and uh he was in the OPs and I looked at it and it said um I looked at some OP, sorry. Observation posts. So forward observation observations.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

I didn't know it was I know it it's what I thought it was, but I was like, I don't know, it's a slightly different.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

So forward observer, and he was uh one of the assistants, an OP assistant. Um he'd be helping the FST commander as they are now with the OPAC, and he was qualified level three, and yet I sort of checked back through his pay statements and checked back and checked back, and I thought, but you're being paid as level two, I don't get this. So I went to the the RAO at the time and I sort of did the that check there and said, Um, have I got this wrong? Am I misreading this? Shouldn't he be being paid as this? And the REO did his checks and said, Yep, no, absolutely. So when I pulled that soldier in for an interview, uh, initial troop commander's interview, I said, Look, um, ex Lance Bomber X, um you're on the wrong pay. I think you you do some back pay. I don't know how much it's gonna be, but stand by, you know, for a decent I mean you got about three and a half grand in his pay packet. And I didn't do it for me. I just went, well, he's not being paid correctly. We must make sure that's correct. And ever since that person now, whenever I see him is like, oh Jim, thanks for that, you know. Still remember that sort of thing. And it's the simple things that that start building trust, isn't it? Uh and I think that's really important for a for a junior officer. Get that bit right, that's bottom of the triangle, the bottom of the pyramid. And then when you step up into, I don't know, leading on exercise, when you're then it's that professional bit, isn't it? Being good at your job, whatever that might be. Yeah, whether you're a platoon commander or if you're a troop commander deploying the guns as a battery wreck officer, it makes no difference. And then you step up again, don't you, onto operations, and then suddenly that's the real pinnacle of it.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Yeah, I I particularly like what you say there about the pyramid, and I think when, especially reflecting on the Sam and Johnny that were quite kind to share those experiences on operations. You can't do that with those people if you've not done the stuff before, right? And I know because I served in the same unit as Sam, um, and actually I've had loads of people reach out who are now sergeant majors and whatnot that were in his platoon at the time as a young soldier, basically saying, like, he turned up and was really impressive from the start, like clearly cared and clearly very competent. Sure. And it's nothing, it's nothing insane. It's being good at your job, it's being fit, making time for people, caring about the right things. And that allowed him to then go and make some really bold decisions on operations, but they trusted him because you'd put the foundations in. Quite, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

That's really important. Um, and the the soldiers want you're there to look after them. That's that's your job as a platoon commander, true commander. You're there to look after them pastorally, yeah, if necessarily, um, financially, if you have to. And how many times have you been down there to sort of try and sort out someone's debt of a car or whatever it might be? Um, and they don't understand necessarily what they've signed, and you're trying to help them out, gaining that trust. So, as you say, when you do say, right, I want you to go left flanking, you need to go and cover that, go and clear that alleyway or whatever it might be from the IEDs, they're gonna go and do it. Yeah. Because they they believe in you, that you're a person that they trust.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah, definitely. There was a bit there you spoke about where um it was about being a a troop commander or platoon commander and a sergeant, and it That relationship that you had really well with with Fergie, was it? Yes, Fergie Patterson. And it sounds like that's I mean, it's but after going through that process, I know how important that is and how beneficial it is when it's right and how hurtful it can be and really challenging when it's not right. But also, I think what's quite interesting, I just wrote come as a pair down as my note. And because you really do, it's not like it's Dan's platoon. It's it's the when you talk about Temperatoon or whatever, it always always those guys they're heading it up. It's the that pair. And I think actually all the great sergeants that I've seen do it really acknowledge the fact that it's you know, even if they're even if the platoon commander isn't amazing, they've got that balance right of we're here to work together and support each other and get it right.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Indeed. And and even um you know, battery commander, battery served major, you are a pair. The two of you are are running that battery. When I was chief instructor at the school, I had uh Jamie Graven, you know, my W01, who's now a uh a major, you know, to two of us, we worked together and we had to work together. We couldn't be at each other, we couldn't be at odds with each other, even if we didn't disagree, even if we and we we disagreed a lot, didn't we, Jay? Um but at the same time, there was a common output from that there. We'd had that discussion, and I would listen to him. You know, he had so much experience from training and everywhere else that I would be a fool to not listen to his advice and guidance. And then I made the decision, and then we both agreed that that was the decision. If it's the wrong one, it's fine. At least we had that common purpose, and and that relationship goes all the way up, doesn't it? You know, that pair of you, wherever you find yourself at what level, whatever level of commander, commanding officer and the RSM. You know, the two of them are the most important people, aren't they, in that in that battalion or regiment, whichever way, and they have to they have to have that relationship. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Cool. Well, I've I've written down

First Operation

SPEAKER_01 45:50

as a bit of a prompt here, opsic spirit. I know you were pretty young when you went on on your first tour, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Well, yeah, I've got that picture.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

How um Northern Ireland. It was a Northern Ireland tour in 2-6. Um I was 21. Yeah, maybe just 22. It was a Christmas tour, I remember that much. And it was Armagh, so and it would the the trouble is it was still it was still a dangerous place. In fact, we lost last Bobby Garrett, actually fabulous bloke, um, was shot by the sniper Dan in Keedy. So it was still a pretty it was a dangerous place. And I've got a hand for a brilliant picture stood next to a two-ton trailer bomb that we found of HME. So there was still quite a risk there. But I was um again, I was I was I was really lucky, gosh, I've been lucky in my career, haven't I? I think back now, that I had an independent command again. So I was away from the battery commander who was down there, down Ock and O'Cloy. I was independent in Armar City, so we had the city tour and the rural side of it as well, commanding the multiple, and it was it was full on. It was a fantastic opportunity to it's been the first time really to see what you're like under pressure as a as a multiple commander. So we were out of role, and that's the beauty of the gunners. We were doing an infantry role, um, and it again I learnt an awful lot about myself and my soldiers too. And what was really interesting is some of the soldiers that you thought didn't have a huge amount about them back in camp, they just did their job, they were okay, but they weren't brilliant. Suddenly came to the fore. When you put them under pressure, put them in an environment like that, they they blossomed. It was amazing to watch. That's really quite a nice thing to see as well when when soldiers do develop beyond what you hope they would.

SPEAKER_03 47:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

So a challenging tour, yeah, six-month tour in Arm R. But um, did I enjoy it? Yes, of course I did. A young officer on Ops.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

I I really um acknowledge what you said there about soldiers stepping up. I think so I went on OPTOR 7. Yeah. Um, and the challenge for that was that it wasn't anything conventional like you've been trained to do. Obviously, we did some PDT for it, and it wasn't punchy or anything like that. But what it was was um there was it was really busy with daily missions, and it wasn't like a platoon mission, it was like loads of individual or pairs missions that you had to do. And the only way we could accommodate this sort of stuff, and we were just escorting generals and whatnot around around the green zone, but not for you Herit guys, not the green zone that you know, a different type of green zone, but it was called the Green Zone Centre of Cabal. And um the yeah, the the the number of private soldiers that we had that were leading those patrols, and they would sometimes be out all day, and they weren't going very far. Um, but they were in charge of briefing generals, really high-ranking people, um, or civilian equivalent, and responsible for their security and doing the right things. And even some little things of a general wouldn't put his helmet on. You're having the moral courage to go, look, I'm sorry, but you know, I'm the patrol commander. Yeah, I might be a private soldier, but I'm leading this, and this is how we're doing it. Yeah, really, really shocked. Um, sort of stood out to me. And I know when I was at Catarick training recruits, I sort of said when we were doing some navigation stuff, uh, there were a few soldiers that had said, Oh, look, this isn't too important because the section commander does it. And I was like, Well, you say that, but literally a few months ago I was in Kabul and my private soldiers were doing this. Yeah, you know, it okay, it wasn't huge enough because once you'd been there for six months, we were using like three roads, it was pretty easy. Yeah, but um, but it was it really stood out to me to be like most of the time, guys, you're only gonna see me in camp. Yeah, because I might do my own patrols and you might do yours, and we'll come back at the end of the day. But in the day, it's kind of over to you guys to do it. And I was really taken aback by how professional they were.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? And you know, even from our perspective in the core, you know, we get young, fairly young um Lance Jacks for Lance Bombardier's with some significant responsibility, especially when it comes to pieces of equipment. Yeah, you ask them to make some battle space management decisions. Do I fire the missile or do I not fire the missile? I have the authority to do so. So again, you ask him to take a lot of responsibility, even on their own um technical job. So making sure that they are trained and qualified and competent to do it is a really important role. And again, that comes back to the junior officer, making sure that they're qualified, that they are able to do the job that you're gonna ask them to do under some significant pressure. You know, do I shoot down that aircraft or not? That's quite a quite a thing to ask a soldier to do, isn't it? When it comes to the gunners. Um, so yeah, it was a great tour, it was a it was a great tour, thoroughly enjoyed it. Um and then my second sort of opt tour was Iraq, took the battery out to Iraq. Um, I can't remember which telek it was. Umly over the winter, Phoenix could only fly in the winter. Bless it. But um that was a that was a completely different challenge from my perspective, from a leadership perspective as well. As a battery commander, I had troop commanders, I had subbies with me, and we were completely dispersed. So I had a troop in Alamara, a troop in Asamawa, which was the Dutch, and I unless I got out to see them, I was stuck in in the headquarters doing or planning, and I really did not enjoy not being out on the ground with with uh with the troop commanders. They probably loved it because the BC wasn't there, you know. Be like me when I was in Northern Ireland, the battery commanders nowhere to be me. It's me, I'm making the decisions, I'm running my troop. But I kind of missed as well not being out with them and not doing the job that you were trained to do. Um, and that was a good tour. Um it was it was it was still kinetic, it was still lots going on, but it was all IUDs at that point, yeah. Um, trying to chase that lot down rather than you know, Dusty Warriors and Alamara and the PWRR battlegroup, Victoria Cross type stuff. But still some some significant challenges from a leadership perspective, especially when you're dispersed, you know, trying to command and lead when people are at the end of a telephone or a radio actually is quite challenging too.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Yeah, a lot of trust.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

An awful lot of trust. Yeah. But that comes back to preparation and training and getting them, you know, that you know that they're gonna do the right thing, do the right job, fight the equipment as it's supposed to done, take risks when they need to take risks, or not when they don't need to. Yeah, yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Awesome. Um, I purposefully left about half an

Inside AOSB: Role of the VP

SPEAKER_01 52:10

hour because I I'd like to get on to ASB so quickly. Of course you would. There's a big chunk of your career that we're not gonna touch, but I don't think we can unpack a 30-plus year career in 90 minutes. Um, and you have a really unique position now and perspective uh on identifying leadership potential because of your role at the Army Officer Selection Board. So for those that maybe aren't so aware, and to be honest, when I went through, I definitely didn't know what DP and VP were, etc. Um, maybe just a little bit of insight into what your role is at the Army Officer Selection Board and how that has come about, how it works. Wherever you want to start with.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Where's where when you start? It's the role as the uh the vice president um is a unique role at Westbury. There are three of us there. Um, two, three others can do the role, but there are three permanent vice presidents. I I it was my last tour. Um I was after something that I was going to enjoy, um, and therefore Army Headquarters was probably not a place that I was end up looking for. But I wanted to add some value. I thought I've got all this experience, I've got all this time under my belt, if you like. I've taught YOs, so I know what YOs are like. I've been through Sanders and a postcame, I was a deputy president uh at Westbury, so I picked that up. Um never done anything like that before. It is a completely different job doing what we do at Westbury. You know, there's very little, I think, in the army, maybe DS at Santos perhaps, or DS on a course, but even so, you're dealing with people that have already been assessed, if you like, have been given the opportunity. So I turned up as a deputy president um and thoroughly enjoyed the job. It's hard work. People think that Westbury, from the staff perspective, is easy, it's it's hard work. It is a lot of time uh focusing on people, uh, watching people, um, assessing them, looking for the potential. Deputy president and vice president as well. Um, and then I an opportunity arose to then uh in fact someone left um and so the president asked me to step up as a vice president. So that's the normal sort of progression, isn't it? Deputy president end up into vice president when you've got a couple of years under your belt as a deputy president, step up to the vice president's role. So it's one step back, if you like, from the candidates. Whereas the DP and those that have been through will know where the DP is sort of hovering over you with a melamine board, scribbling away. Whereas you'll see the vice president taking sort of a little bit further step back, and I look after two groups rather than just the one. So DP will look after a group of eight, um, ideally, and I'll look after two groups of eight. So that's that's the that's where I am. Um it's it is a fantastic job. Um is it the best job in the army? Probably is. Yeah. And the reason I say that is that I get to see so many young people with real aspirations coming through, who've got something about them. They sometimes don't know they've got it about them. They really don't. They genuinely don't see their real potential, but they're coming to have a go. And it's being able to spot that potential my stomach's rumbling there. Being able to spot that potential and give them the opportunity to prove themselves a scientist. I feel is a real privilege.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Um I do feel it's a real privilege. And at the same time, I'm also looking for people who I know won't fit. You know, I talked about the gunners and the RSB, the personality that isn't gonna fit. You know that, you see those traits, you use your experience. And you've got to think about it 37 years, the deputy presidents, you've probably got nearly 65 years of experience. Throw in the group leader, yeah, 75 years worth of experience in the army, all looking at people. So we don't get it wrong very often, I have to say.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

Because the group leaders are senior captains.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Yeah, yeah, they are. Um some of them looking to promote. Yeah. Um, most of them are sort of eight, six to eight years in in role. And um again, they are such an important part of our process because they went through Sandhurst a few years ago. Um, they've been at the coalface more recently, perhaps, in regimental duty than we have. Normally they've come from a regimental duty pid position. And so their the information, the the views that they have on candidates, what they've seen, what they've observed is is really important from a from a vice president's perspective, from my perspective as well. Um and I will always listen to what they say.

SPEAKER_03 56:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:49

Because it's really important too, because they will have they may have to serve with these people. Yeah. Whereas I probably won't when I.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Um so what's um sorry, yeah, no, go on.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Um what surprised you most about being back there?

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Uh the rigorousness, rigorousness, is that a word? Is that a term? How good that process is, how rigorous that process is. I think perhaps when I went through again, I didn't really understand it, that it was just a couple of old lieutenant colonels who ended their career just Well, he went to the right school, didn't he? He's wearing the right suit and you know, Jolly Good Bloke plays cricket. So you can join. Um maybe that was the perception then. Now, when you see when I and I you know I'm not gonna let you peek behind the curtain down, but um when I see the process that we go through and how much effort there is involved in it, I was staggered. I was uh genuinely staggered how much analysis and how much work goes into making sure we get the right people. That was the surprise. And I think also um, you know, the whole the whole bit about where people come from um surprised

Potential Over Privilege

SPEAKER_00 58:00

me as well. Um, you know, I yeah, I was lucky I went to private school. And again, I suppose I had the perception that most people that go to Westbury come from private educated, proper university, you know, Redwick University, that sort of background, and actually more and more people are coming from a less um what's the word I'm after? Not not less privileged background, but they're normal people. They haven't had those opportunities perhaps that other people have had. And they're the ones that impress me the most actually. Because they're the ones we're looking for potential, you know, it all comes back to potential at Westbury. No matter where you've come from, no matter what opportunities you've had, do you show us potential, leadership potential there based on everything that we see that you'll be successful through the the 44 weeks of training at Santhurst? So that's that surprised me an awful lot about the how good that process is.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

And how rigorous it is as well.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Yeah, I think um I have since you know finding out more and doing more research into the process, and you obviously know a lot more about it than I. But it's fascinating uh the steps that are in place to make sure that you're identifying the right people through the right processes. And some stuff I found out, you know, it's it's what many other militaries base their selection processes on. And not just militaries, yeah, you know, you know, wider civilian organizations. And I think that's one speaks so highly of the process that's ran. Um, but also, you know, sort of my urge for people that are considering it is to go and give it a crack because you'll learn so much about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Absolutely. And I would say the same thing. Uh, if it's what you want, if you think that you want that responsibility of leadership, then

Briefing, Main Board & 2nd Attempts

SPEAKER_00 59:45

come and have a go. Um, as long as you meet the criteria, you know, educational background, you've got the right qualifications, and that sort of stuff, and you pass the medical. Yeah, clearly that's one thing to get through. But if you if you meet all those, come and have a go at briefing. Um, do a bit of prep for briefing. Um, you know, you need to know what's going on in the world, as I said right at the start. You need to be fit, but everything else will teach you. And and and and you know, you might decide after briefing, do you know what? No, this isn't for me. But I'll tell you what, you'd have learned an awful lot about yourself. You'd have met other people that you may have got friendships with, you'd have swapped numbers, um, and you'll you'll take it away and use that wherever you might find yourself. And if you think, do you know what this is for me, then you know, come back for a main board.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Have a go at a main board. And I'd also say, Dan, you know, when we get quite a lot of previous attenders, so people aren't successful on their I don't say fail, I never used the word fail. You didn't fail a main board, you were unsuccessful because at that point, in those two and a half days, you didn't show us, or you didn't show the the board members that you had the potential to be successful at Sandhurst. That's what that means. Now, read the feedback, the briefing feedback and the main board feedback, and then come and have another go. And you'd be surprised at a number of people who do far better when they come back for a second go.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

What do you think that is? Why why are they better?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Why are they better? Because I think they've read their feedback. They they were probably un unaware of it's normally a personality thing, but they were unaware of certain things about themselves because no one's ever told them.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

When was the last time you know someone in Civic Street was told they were average? Yeah. No one likes being average, do they? But you know that sometimes they just don't no one's ever told them that you're not that good actually. Um you were, I know you were head of house and you were ahead of a first team of football or cricket or rugby and you rode for Oxford or whatever it might be. But actually you need to work on this, this, this, and this, because when we put you through the process, we identified these this concern. And as far as the board members are concerned, that's too much risk to send you to sound test. But now you know that, don't you? Yeah. So now you know that you can then address those issues and then come back and have a go. Yeah. And don't rush back, you know. I would say to people as well, don't rush back for a second attempt a main board if you weren't successful. Look at what we tell you, go away, work on those areas, gain some more experience. It could just be like me, my report, yeah, immature, you know, immature. Um, I don't know how I got through, but I did. Um, and sometimes it could just be as simple as that. You're just not old enough, you haven't got enough life experience yet. But again, we're not um we're not sort of running people out who are too young. Um, let me think. Two weeks ago, someone who was 18 sent them to Sandhurst. Yeah, you know, so 18, 19, you know, by the time they finish university, they'll probably be you know nearer 21, 22. But yeah, you know, age isn't an issue as long as you meet the potential criteria.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

And with a with a young, I I'm fascinated by this because I could have never passed at that age. Um, and I know a few people that did, uh uh one lad in particular joined our battalion, um, and just such a good guy, yeah uh and also really good in the field as well. Um, but he sorry, uh so going back to people that had shown that potential at that age, yeah. Do you think that being younger, and you obviously did it as well, um you've got a longer time in service, right? So if you join in in more mouldable, more trainable, does that come into it at all?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

From what from Westbury's perspective, no. Oh really? It's it's it's 44 weeks of Sandhurst. We are not we are not looking at candidates to see whether they will be a good junior uh you know in in battalion or regiment. Can you get through the training at Sandhurst? Okay. So if if you show us the potential, whether you're 18 or 28, that's kind of the bracket, really, where we're at. If you show us the potential, we will get you that place at Sandhurst. And I'd also like to, you know, I would say that the board is it's a positive mindset. The board is not about keeping people out of Sandhurst, it's getting people with potential into Sandhurst. And I always try and let my candidates know that, you know, maybe a maybe a perception out there that West, oh gosh, no, you're never gonna get through, they just don't want people joining. No, no, it's completely the opposite. All my other vice presidents would would um say the same thing. We want to get people to Sandhurst. If they've got what we know potential-wise that's gonna make us successful through the training, we'll get them to Sandhurst. Okay. So it's it's it's it's really quite key people understand, I think, Dan, anyway, that and and and come with that feeling I'm gonna get a fair shot. And and that's the other thing as well with Westbury. You know, it is a process, it's it's um science and art, the two things together. But the one thing that we make sure every every person that goes through gets the same experience. Yeah, that's really can't control the weather, obviously. Yeah, that's the one thing we can't control, much as we'd like to. Chinese might be able to help us out with some cloud seeding, I suppose. But everybody gets the same experience, and that's really important. So nobody can say, well, it wasn't fair because I got that and they didn't get that, and etc. Um, and that's really one of the key things about Santos as well. Uh sorry, uh AOSB is the same experience for every candidate.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

Awesome. With with um you obviously see a lot,

AOSB Pitfalls: Fitness, Acting, Overthinking

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

and you've seen a lot in your in your time there. What would you say are some of the pitfalls? Where can people go wrong with this sort of thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:16

At Westbury, yeah. Um let me think about that one. Pitfalls. I suppose coming with a preconceived idea of what we're looking for is a pitfall. You know, um it's not about the old boys' brigade, it's not about what suit you wear, it's not about the school, as I said, it's about potential. So just being you is really important at Westbury. And and I say that because people that try and put on an act, firstly a soldier will see through an officer who's putting on an act anyway. Boom, that's your credibility going in a heartbeat, isn't it? But when you're when you're trying to act something that you're not, or you're worried that somebody else has got a far more experience and done more stuff and you you you try and behave something you're not um you come across as false we'll see it we've seen it so many times we we can see through that you might you might get away with it for a day but after two and a half days the the the it will crack you will crack and we'll see especially when some stress is applied. Well you know we'll ramp up that and and we'll see the true you and then suddenly the board will start questioning hmm have we seen the real you is this you are you right for us that kind of thing so be honest be open be who you are that's really important and I will say that to to the candidates but uh in in my interviews with them I just one of the things I I say to them. Another pitfall is not passing your fizz. Now you'll do an MSFT at briefing obviously when you come through and if you know the the president's hard over if you don't get 710 um he won't let you for a main board for at least three months. So if you run 7.09 you're gonna get a three month delay boom just like that and and then when you come back for main board if you don't pass your fizz and I'm still shocked that people don't that is the first time your assessment staff see you. So I stand with the deputy president on the MSFT course looking at people as does the group leader and if the first thing we see of you is you can't pass your fitness test knowing what it is it's the one controllable you have got and Dave Braille would sort of control the controllables it's the one thing you can control. How are we going to perceive you for the rest of the board but more importantly how are you now going to feel from a self-conscious uh self-confidence and self-belief perspective when you failed the first thing that we ask you to do. So some of you're all you're on the back foot then aren't you so yeah and how are your peers going to see you?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Because we can see you can see if someone's still going or not or if someone stopped really early in comparison.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

Absolutely absolutely and then you know Sandhurst is a tough physical gig isn't it hey our tasks the command tasks are physical tasks as well so you're gonna need to be fit there because you've got to be part of the team you've got to be able to help lift a plank swing a burden whatever it is you've got to be able to do and if physically you're struggling and you start the team starts going well you know yeah and then how does that appear to the to get fit be fit yeah you know what the standard is and some people say I've heard oh you know I got I've got to 710 so it's perfect. Yeah but if I said to you right one of your favourite relatives is is is on death's door okay and it's a 50 mile drive to get there and you've got 50 miles range in your car what would you do? Would you hope that you get there or would you put five quid of extra fuel in there so you know you're gonna get there. So don't aim for 710 get to 810.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

So if you have a bad day or the weather's appalling do they still run it outside as well run outside so you know a couple of weeks ago with that storm one way you were flying the other way it was a into the wind yeah don't give yourself some leeway I think I'm I can feel myself I'm remaining calm I'm remaining calm down but I think I will speak with people about this and I know I've been pretty outspoken about this um but I think I I echo the voice of the officer cohort and the soldier cohort I don't think anyone really disagrees with me. There's a pretty low bar there. And actually the rest of Westbury my understanding and the more I found out is actually like really good assessment process. So so definitely not coming at that point there. But I think it's and it's it's the the attitude of some people that I've encountered of the I slipped and I didn't quite make the mark you should be able to do this hung over running backwards like the standard for me that is so low. And I come at a point of this where it was 10.2 when I went through and I got to Sandhurst and for that first initial period was not fit enough. And I can't imagine and this isn't about what what cat bad you want to go to no absolutely you are a custodian of standards and if you aren't happy with that bare minute and I'm not saying look fitness is the one you can really improve right uh because you can just train a bit harder and whatnot. Yeah sure but it's but it's that entry standard of don't go there just wanting to to scrape the pass and think that's your job done because I remember when we did the PFA yeah which has obviously changed now but it was the the two minute max pushups, two minutes max sit-ups and then the the two 1.5 mile run. And um I remember our DS it sand test and all the PT stuff were really really insistent like you'll get to battalions and people will hit the 44 pushups and they'll stop. You don't because you're an officer so you push yourself and yeah you might have used a little more energy even though you've passed but we don't get like you push yourself to the to the mass and yeah I feel really strongly about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

And I and and you know if you if you only do the bare minimum when it comes to the fizz where else are you going to only do the bare minimum? Yeah. Take yourself out and sound dose is a challenge at the best of times if you're not fit you're gonna end up in Lucknow platoon and you might your dream of being an army officer might just die when you get injured and you can't recover from it. But when you get to your unit you get to your regiment you should be able to keep up with your soldiers you should be the one that they're oh the boss is in front of me again because that then encourages them to keep fit. It's about showing them that you're pushing them past their limits as well. But if you're always at the back always struggling you're always going to struggle to gain their respect. Yeah so there don't don't fail your fitness please it's really important. And that's that so that's that's one area um that I I still think is something that's important there. What else is there? It's it's understanding as we talked about being being yourself um you know the process itself is not something to be afraid of either you know you do the planning exercise I know that everybody says the planning exercise oh my god it's the

Planning Exercise & Command Tasks

SPEAKER_00 1:12:00

you know it's the John Wick impossible task isn't it? You know it's not it's one part of the assessment process and I think it's really important for people not to sweat it too much. What we want to be able to see is can you take a conceptual problem something that's written down read a paragraph put it in your in in our terms read an int rep read read a set of orders read the some photographs and come up with a a plan of a of attack of a and objective because that's what we want you to do. Can you use your effective intelligence your intellect to to to do that and come up with a plan that's that's reasonable sensible not too risky and if you're gonna take risks tell us why you're gonna take risk um don't sweat it too much and then you know that's that one part of the the practical and then the other side is outside isn't it it's the command tasks can you bridge the shark infested custard gap with two planks and a bit of rope can you come up with a plan short you know you've only got a lot period of time that's gonna address that problem. And then when we board people you know if you have an absolute shocker on the plan X that's not doesn't mean so you're not gonna go to Santhurst. What it tells the board members is okay that there's an area for development there's an area that you're gonna need to be that 44 weeks of training at Santos is going to help you and develop you. So it's it's a balance between all the activities and we'll take an overall view in the in that area and and so again I would I would say to people yes plan practice the planx um you'll find online are the the the sheet that you fill out you know the the form use that as a template and just pick a a problem. It doesn't have to be anything difficult. Get your distance speed time that's really important. You know you do the maths be able to do fairly simple basic maths distance speed and time and be able to analyse problems. And I had a young candidate a couple of weeks ago um terrible plan X. You know I mean poor poor thing but not completely overface but really struggled. But their command task was pretty much the DS solution. Really? Yep I marked it I went well I couldn't see any fault in that whatsoever um so you know yeah Plan X oof command task wow okay so guess what potential yeah do you know what Santos yeah they're gonna struggle at Santos yeah they'll they'll it'll be a challenge but then that's what Santos is about send them to Santos 44 weeks of training so the practical side is is not something to worry about.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

And then obviously we'll look at in the personality area as well and that comes back to a bit like my RSB are they a right fit for the army do we see personality traits that we know are the right fit for the army and is that also their understanding not that you have to know the nine to five every day of what everyone does but just okay you've clearly researched this you've clearly put the effort in you know what what that's a good point isn't it because you wouldn't go for a job interview with Price Waterhouse Coopers or or one of the big banks and think that they grew tomatoes would you?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:05

You'd do the research wouldn't you so that when you turned up you knew roughly you wouldn't know what their sort of corporate strategy was but at least you knew what the company did what their roles were what their aim was you know British Airways they fly airplanes whatever it might be. So understanding the basics is clearly something that anybody at any job interview Dan should should know I wouldn't I researched coming here didn't I just because you need to know what you're gonna talk about. So that's that's really important. But we're not expecting you to know the ins and outs of a platoon commander troop commander absolutely not because that's what you'll get taught in your YS course. But coming in and thinking that you're gonna be baking pastries or something like that's probably you're in the wrong place.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:45

And I and I guess also in you know you'd be able to add more on this but also um if I speak to someone and it's all me, me, me, what I can get from the army, it's like for sure I know we're young joining the army and you're gonna get a lot from it. But you wouldn't go to another job interview and not talk about why you think you could do it. At the end you've got to be competitive in some area and explain why you think you can do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:08

I don't know if that comes across sometimes sometimes it does but uh part of me says well you you are going to develop and grow and and become a better person as a as a junior officer because there's opportunities there. The sport, the venture training the qualifications, the education you get yourself a degree. So it you know you need to know that yes I am going to I'm gonna benefit from this I'm gonna grow and develop as a person that that even the training at Sanders is going to turn you into a completely different person you were but as you say at the same time there's a reason that you're here as a junior officer and that's your your soldiers isn't it that's that's what you aspire to do is to lead them to look after them to help them develop and grow and become junior officers or you know or even sort of RSMs and and and that way there. And and for me that was one of the most satisfying things when I was uh it was actually a battery commander but there's a young lad um Gunnar Trig. There we go giving him his name out but um young Trig uh I I spoke to him interviewed him and I thought you know there's something about you my friend isn't there I thought really you should be looking to go direct entry officer he didn't carried on to W2 then went direct entry officer from W2. He's now about to take command of that battery.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:21

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:21

Yeah oh wow yeah um and I was so pleased for him because you think you know you've got him going in the right direction given the right opportunities and that can be

AOSB for Serving Soldiers

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

whether you're a a launch bombardier or whether you're a senior NCO.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:33

That's triggered something that I will be um you know not forgiven if I don't ask is if you're a serving soldier and you're heading to Westbury do's and don'ts or anything you can share there.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:44

Yeah I'll tell you the one thing is um when you come don't have that sort of inferiority complex you know we are going to look at you I will call you mister or I'll call you by a Christian name and that really freaks out some soldiers sometimes when they come in as a as a as a Lance Corporal and I call them you know Pete, Dave, Bob, whatever it might be and there's Lieutenant Colonel sat there and they're commanding officer in the battalion or the regiment they don't want to go and see them because they're the CEO and crack if I'm seeing the CO someone's gone probably wrong rather than good. Yeah just be who you are. You've earned the right to be there. You're just as good as anybody else there. If you show us the potential based on what we see at Westbury then we'll give you that chance to go to to to Sandhurst yeah that's really quite an important thing and we you know we see them quite a few actually so you know ones and twos are coming through.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

And and just on that inferiority complex I had that when I went and I wasn't a service soldier right but I a non-grad I didn't go and I think um I sort of got there pretty average A levels extremely average GCSEs um but I got there and I uh immediately one of the reasons the draw to me for the army was um got a great group of friends I've I'm not covering them but uh we weren't heading towards the well it was but we weren't heading towards the officer cohort yeah and uh you know I know a lot of people that joined the Marines boot necks and whatnot but the part of that was about trying to almost level up a little bit in terms of where I was going in life and fortunately that did happen but also I remember getting to Westbury um and I was quite fortunate to do a reserve insight day even though I wasn't in the reserves I was randomly invited and everyone there OTC yeah because it was run by that sure and I was like wow really educated they know way more than me and there was that bit there so I think it's a really good point for serving soldiers. I also think it's a really good point if you just and I speak to those people a lot now is I don't feel like I'm from an officer background and I'm like neither was I neither were you like you can do this and but first you need to leave that because that's not going to serve you very well. Absolutely and you've got a strength in there somewhere you just need to identify what that is indeed and then you can meet people on the level instead of very much I'm not quite that type because that's not going to do very well absolutely not because also that type don't care either by the way whether you're their type or not we're all there to speak and you're all in there together you're all in that group and and the the the groups that do really well are the ones that have gelled really quickly together and work well together as a team they're the ones that do well um when it comes to activities that I'm at Westbury.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:25

It's the ones where they're sort of groups of individuals that sometimes you think they're not working well as a team. That makes our job a lot harder because suddenly you're sort of having to try and look a little bit more closely perhaps understand what what does that mean? What does that interaction you know I don't understand why they said that or is it are they being a bit such and such or or is it just the fact the group haven't really come together yet you know the old performing norming storming all that sort of thing. So getting together as a team quickly I think certainly does help you know the candidates and what it'll do Dan is is is the the candidates that have got lacking a little bit of self-confidence perhaps they're not the ones that think should I be here you know oh he's UOTC he's a J U O he's done this he's done that and I'm not no no I've got the confidence to push myself forward to actually take part to get stuck in and that's one of the other bits of advice I always give candidates in my interviews is you know you've got to show us what you've got. Yeah we we assess you based on evidence. It's an evidence based assessment process. It's like a court of law you know if you've got no evidence in a court case you've got no case. Yeah the board hasn't seen you it hasn't identified it hasn't seen you heard you or whatever it might be is it going to take risk in sending you to Sandhurst because it has can it really guarantee it's seen enough potential in you?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:37

So again you know getting stuck in is really important too with that yeah and you you mentioned it earlier about having that I did a video recently and I sort of ended it with you've got to have something about you.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:46

It doesn't have to be this exact thing but you've got to have something where you have the confidence to step up speak up and you know if you are going there and you do have a bit of that inferiority complex going up and being able to smash the fizz I don't mean 710 or anything I mean you know running to the end 11 six right is when it stops we stop it at 11 six yeah um and people get there right oh yeah yeah um surprisingly a lot of people get there and what re-irritates me are the people that get there not even out of breath how far could you go it's exactly that um you see those people there but um but what a confidence boost to start the week of name board you've got that under your belt right I'm past the fizz I've shown everybody that I'm fit enough to be here I'm on a high I'm on that upward trajectory rather than oh god I failed it and I think some people think that okay it's just it's not that is every course you'll ever do well especially from an infantry perspective here uh in the life of a young officer um you do your fitness test really early on it's sand test and obviously you do it a lot you get to Brecon you do it there again like you are constantly trying to do that and if you have that um worry about all this fitness like that carries through to every assessment and people can see um on day one how how prepared you are um we are running out of time

Closing Thoughts & Advice

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

I could sit in chat me too for ages um it's been really useful and I think definitely getting a better understanding for a lot of people out there that are heading towards Westbury um some of the key things I'm hearing is authenticity.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:12

Yeah I think that sounds like it's really important. You don't have to have a spice a specific background. Nope. That that definitely isn't the case. A level of preparedness I think is wise.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:24

Yeah um I would say you know some people you see them they come almost over prepared what they're trying to do almost is second guess what we're going to be doing. And it's a bit like I would say driving a car. I know we talked about this didn't we have a coffee but the analogy I would use is driving a car. When you first learn to drive a car you are utterly useless at it unless your name's Hamilton or whatever it might be but you know because you haven't to think about the mechanics of it you haven't to think about clutch you haven't to think about gear and steering and indicating and it's cognitive overload isn't it I think when candidates come thinking too much about what the process is what are they doing now? What am I gonna do now? Why am I doing this? Why are they saying that why aren't they giving me any feedback? Why are we they then aren't cognitively they're slowing themselves down rather than just saying I'm I'm gonna accept everything they ask me to do and I'm not gonna worry about the process I'm not gonna worry about the fact that there's someone stood behind me scribbling away when I say something on a melamine board or someone looks at me after I've said something or whatever it might be don't try and overanalyse what the process is just be yourself and and and take each task that we're gonna give you and do it to the best of your ability. Yeah. And don't be afraid of making mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:37

And I I think that's um just to sort of comment it might be a bit weird if I don't comment on what I do and I know some people don't like it that's fine. But but actually I think it couldn't be further from the truth that it's not hand holding. It's not giving people I just don't believe in it at all. And like you said, how long you've been at Westbury you're gonna see through all that sort of shit it's not going to do any people favours and actually what I have in my mind is how can people develop a little bit before Santos. Westbury is a stepping stone that you've got to get through absolutely yeah but what are the skills and it's all just development stuff it's all the broader broader stuff it's not giving people answers it's working out authenticity is important.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:11

Absolutely and some people just don't quite know what their strengths and weaknesses are so we've got to figure that out and I think we have to see that at Westbury and you know we'll send when we tell Santos you're gonna get X coming to you here's the report that I'll write on them. Yeah and it's you know they did well and this is where you're gonna have to focus on them because they weren't very good at that but that's fine. We think there's the potential there you're gonna turn them into a good leader of our soldiers.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:34

Awesome. Well Jim we've got maybe last couple of sentences um before we wrap up I don't I've got a couple more prompts but to be honest I don't think we have is there anything you want to finish with um no I think you know we've talked about everything about coming to Westbury.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:50

The one thing I would say and it goes back to when I was um a requirements manager working um on on the equipment and there was an organisation in London called Deck GM it's it's gone now but it was the director of equipment capability Grand Maneuver and they were responsible for all the armoured vehicles but they had this poster on the wall um in main building and it said it was a it was a fantastic picture it was a obviously a mouse hole charger just gone off in some don't know where compound there was dust everywhere there and there were um I think it was uh parachute regiment parachute but were going through and you clearly they just breached into a compound bayonets fixed so this was clearly um sharp end of the sharp end of the pointy stick but what struck me most was the was the the words that were below it we said what have you done for them today yeah and and to me that that's that thing from a junior officer perspective what have you done for your soldiers today and you take that across your entire career so one would hope that General Walker you know General Rowley would say what have I as chief of the general staff done for the soldiers that sit below me today and and every decision that he thinks or comes up with how's it going to affect the soldiers that I'm responsible for okay granted that's the army but as a junior officer that decision I'm about to make or that thing I'm gonna do how is it going to affect my soldiers positively or negatively and if you kind of take that think about that as a junior officer don't think you get too far wrong in your first command tour I think that's gleaming that's gleaming yeah it's that that bit you mentioned you can't as a junior officer you definitely can't change the world but you might be able to change someone's world.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:27

Exactly um yeah and I think where I got it really right was that and where I got it really wrong was probably the fact I didn't do that enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:34

We're probably in the same boat yeah probably in the same boat um we've all made mistakes that's part of learning isn't it just don't make the same mistake twice I suppose is the important thing to take away.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:43

Awesome. Good Jim thanks so much for your time thank you for inviting me yeah um well that is it for today's episode on the Army bloke. Uh a lot there all right so definitely you know a lot if you're preparing for Westbury but more so I think what's important is just preparing for the role of a young officer And what that job entails. And I think there's a lot of value there, especially sort of that early command experience, um, where it can be really challenging, but also super exciting. So I know I'm sort of a real advocate for that, but it's because it just had such a profound impact on me in my life, I guess, and of course what I do now. But um that yeah, it just awesome. So uh if this content is useful, please do click like, click subscribe. You can click the bell so you can be notified every time I upload a video. If you've got questions, put them in the comments. I'll do my very, very best to get back to you. And if I don't know, I'll try and find out and get back to you anyway. Um, and that is it for this week's episode. I will see you next week with a brand new video in a bit. Thanks very much, mate. That was absolutely spot on. Thanks. Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:44

You talk for hours, can you?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:45

Yeah, I'm I told you we we barely get through. We barely get through, don't you?