Army Doctor Reveals: The PQO Route No One Talks About

We talk with David Hymarsh about what the Army Professionally Qualified Officer route really looks like for doctors, from AOSB and Sandhurst to phase two training and life in unit. We pull out the leadership lessons that matter most: humility, speaking to your audience, leaning on experienced NCOs and taking mental health seriously. 

• How AOSB feels for medical students
• What the short Sandhurst PQO course covers and why it exists 
• What phase two Medical Officer training adds beyond university and the NHS 
• the reality of arriving at unit as a captain while still feeling new 
• Day-to-day work as a Medical Officer: sick parade, occupational medicine, deployability and advising commanders 
• Learning from corporals and sergeants with deep operational experience 
• How military mental health support works best when the clinician understands life in green 
• Deploying as a medical officer: malaria, vaccines, heat, allies and making decisions with limited information 
• Leaving the Army, becoming a GP partner and using military skills to build online education and mentoring 

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Transcript

Brutal Leadership Truths Up Front

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You crap at the military side, don't pretend otherwise. You need to be flexible and realise where your strengths lie. And that might not be in the military setting. You've got to try and almost find your tribe. And I soon realized like, oh, these are my people. And the doctors that I saw do badly went out there thinking they were the next Rambo with a stethoscope basically. And I ended up falling out with the NHS counsellor. And guess what? If someone's in green, you're going to get on with them far better.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Guys, welcome back to another episode on the Army Bloke Podcast with our Lessons in Leadership series. Today, well, to be honest with you, I get loads of questions about what a professionally qualified officer does. And hopefully, for those of you of you that listen to this regularly, you'll know that I'm pretty transparent about what I do know and definitely what I don't know. And I definitely don't know what the professionally qualified officer route entails in its entirety. So I'm really excited for my conversation today with David, who has been a medical officer deployed on operations, uh, served for 11 years in the military, so definitely understands what being a PQO and med officer is all about. Served with a number of different regiments and also now runs or as a GP partner. So, Dave, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for travelling down. Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it. Good stuff. Well, um, do you want to give a quick intro? I've obviously done a little bit there, but a bit more about uh who you are and what you've done.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yeah, so I'm as you said, I'm Dave Hymarsh. I'm currently now a GP partner. Um, I left the military four years ago, having joined straight after university. So I was sort of one of those medical students. I was like, do I go to Australia? Do I go to New Zealand for a bit? And then I got relatives in the military, and I was like, why not look at the army? Um, tried to get in initially about halfway through my medical school, failed. Um really? Yeah, so initially they've they altered it, and I think actually it was in my favour. So initially it was just an interview board with you know a couple of other medical officers quite senior in what was then the RAMC. Um, and then basically I got grilled to death, and they're like, No, thank you, you don't know what you're on about. And then one day was just like, I think in my fourth year, just went like, I want to give it another go. And so thankfully went through ASB alongside you know, other wannabe officers, thankfully was successful, and then pretty much as I left university, I was in like the military system, which I'm more than happy to sort of explain and have a chat through in this podcast.

Finding Your Tribe In Service

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah, awesome. Well, there's a lot to get into that. There is a lot to get into. We're trying to try and be good. Good stuff. Well, I always think it's easy to start at the start. So a little bit more on maybe why you joined the army.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Yeah, so I think you've got to try and almost find your tribe from that way. So obviously, I get on well with my relative. Uh, they were having a brilliant time in the military, and I thought, I've got to have a look at it. And they were, you know, battering me with a stick, like, yeah, of course, they've got med, you know, you're gonna be a doctor, won't you gonna have a look? And then at the time managed to uh got in touch with like the recruitment office, um, the sort of the army medical services, and said, like, are you having any introduction days? And they did. They had like quaint days where they're giving lectures about what they're getting on to, what your job would entail. And I think the most the take-home from that is actually not so much what they were delivering, but like who's in the room with you. So you sort of you realize in when you're in a very large group, you'll get into your little teams and whatnot, and I soon realized like, oh, these are my people. So, like, you know, and people that have been on those quaint visits who's like, oh yeah, actually, I'm I'm in the right crowd here. And time and time again, more stuff that I was doing, there was more people like, oh yeah, I'm in the military as well. Not related to the military, but like other stuff that you just saw, for example, like you know, in the rugby club that I was in at medical school, there are people who would leave, and it's like, oh yeah, there was one who was in the Marines and then went into medical school. Um, you know, as part of my in third year, I trekked up Mount Everest to base camp and then as part of a medical expedition. Um, and then all the way up a load of people like, yeah, I'm RAF. So you sort of you get that flavour of like, yeah, I probably should be in the military. Yeah, yeah. It's like I need to have a look at it.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Yeah, your military car, I remember being on holiday not too long ago, and uh there was some guy there, and he just walked into the bar and I just said to my missus, I was like, he's definitely ex-military, but I don't know what he was in. And then like two beers later, sharing each other's life stories and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

And exactly that that I was um in uh ski school because a missus dragged me, and what did he say? He made a comment like you two, you're together, and I was just like, I don't even know him, I haven't even bought my drink, and then we hit it off. Turns out he's ex-military. It was just that sort of like instant bounter.

AOSB And The Short Sandhurst Route

SPEAKER_00 4:36

So good stuff. And I definitely echoed that of um like when people asked me why I joined, I went on holiday with my brother, who was currently cis serving at the time. Uh, and basically for two and a half weeks we were travelling around Vietnam, and he was a machine gun platoon commander at the time, and he just his stories were cooler than mine. Uh and by the end of the two and a half weeks, I was like, I think I'll join the army actually. That's pretty much how it worked. Yep. Um, awesome. So, this is the bit that I I really would like to get into first off, I guess, is this AOSB and Sandhurst journey for a professionally qualified officer. Now, I think I have a good understanding, but for anyone that doesn't always consider that, are you able to share how it worked for yourself? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

So we did, I did AOS B sort of the two and a half, three days, how so many years ago now I'm showing my age, um, where we were put through the paces as with anyone else, you know, lovely tabards on, um, you know, suited and booted when needs be, making sure you're all fit and everything for it. And that was really good fun. I think the bit that I learned off that was I'd done a lot of I didn't join the officer cadets at university um just because I was busy doing other stuff, but actually that was disadvantaged in one way because I wasn't as au fay with all of the military stuff, which you could tell with people who'd done it that it was just second nature and they just got on with it. Um, but actually, because I'd done a lot of leadership stuff, I'd been involved in like the rugby club, like the I was president of the medical society for a year. So when they came to demonstrate your leadership, I could rattle off a couple of things. And actually, the lessons that I'd identified there I could carry on through, even into a military career. So, what they do is there they sort of sign you up. You can join at multiple points, but like I think the most common route is having a look at when you're in medical school. So once you qualified, they paid for my final year of university, which is very nice, thank you very much. Um, you then join as a junior doctor, sort of what's often called like your foundation year one and two, which still exist, and they want you partially trained before they do anything with you. The difference is, or certainly when I was went through, um, is that instead of it being a deanery that you can sort of be scattered anywhere in the country, is that they have a military deanery. So they try and tie you two hospitals. So for me, I was down in Birmingham, which has sort of had a big military presence and still does, um, and they very much want you in and around. So, like one of my supervisors was a full colonel, uh bow surgeon, um, who's still serving actually. I was um handed over, he was on rotation two of one of the operations that I was on, and very much they wanted you in that community so they could one keep an eye on you and sort of get you trained up in certain medical rotations because they don't particularly want you trained on like geriatrics, elderly medicine, they want you to do your AE, your general practice, your sort of your real sort of punchy stuff. And actually, even one of the supervisors that I had, one of the orthopedic surgeons, I then deployed with 10-15 years later, which was just like small world itis from that way. So you do your first two years, and then you effectively, from a doctor point of view, you're taken out as a captain and you get sort of pushed through Sandhurst, yeah. Um, which was a barrel of laughs, and I feel terribly, terribly sorry for my colour sergeant at the time. Um, I think, in fairness, because looking back on it, holding rank without any training, I think was I'm not quite sure I agree with looking back, trying not to sound like that grumpy old veteran. Yeah, and I think in fairness they've got rid of that. So you st you hold an officer cadet rank at this moment, but don't quote me on that. So you go through effectively one term of Sandhurst, because sort of like you what they found was certainly with Iraq and Afghanistan, that as medical officers were getting pushed out, that they would and all the other professionally qualified officers were actually getting more on the front line inadvertently, they were getting themselves in getting themselves and other people into danger. So like I still know of you know, I'd speak to full colonels, brigadiers at the time who said, like, well, in my day it was only four weeks, and you're like, What? Four weeks? Yeah, it's just like this is mad, and mine now and like please don't shoot me down. It's like it was about 10, 12 weeks. So it's sort of like a condensed version to take you effectively from zero. Can you conduct yourself in the field? Do you know which end of the rifle is from the other? You know, even that was blessed.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Well, well, that is what like if you go and join the um army as a soldier, that is basic training, is 12 weeks, and then you have whatever the additional bit is for your phase two. So when I was at Catarick, you did I think it's changed now. So people always say in the comments are blind, it's different. But when I was there, I'm pretty sure it was 12 weeks for your basic training, and then they'd come back and they'd have a bit of a break and come back and do their phase two, which I think was another 12 or 14 weeks or something like that. So um, and it is a full-on pace course, so definitely I fully understand how the how that that sadness experience is going to be.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

It was a bit like, oh okay, shock of capture, but you know, your standard four or five hour sleeps, and you know, thankfully I'd done some night shifts so I knew how to function every night, but it's sort of like, yeah, you sort of so you're there and then on the back foot, and you're not I wasn't the best militarily, so it was like, you know, can't be like any of us off. You take it with a pinch of salt and just try and you know, just I threw my best into it and ultimately had a I had a really good time at the end of it, though at the time I'm not sure I'd say that. So um it's where I learned about type two fun. It's just like only fun looking back. Yeah, it was definite type two fun. And you know what? I it was one of those as you just get to bond with the group, and what's interesting is that as you roll into phase two, the doctors that were there, we then went on to train with. So you know, there's sort of I think there were 60 of us originally, 30 of whom were doctors, and then we pushed on into phase two. So that again, similar sort of like three, four-month training of effectively you're back to university.

PQO Mix And Padre Culture Shock

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Got you. So um, just for for people listening or watching, um, professionally qualified officers. We've got legal advisors, yep, we've got doctors, we've got physios, we've got dentists, there's probably loads more.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Nurses, uh have we mentioned vets as well? Vets, sorry, yes. Yeah, they're a good laugh. Um, physios, we've mentioned Padres. Padres. Oh the best. Oh the best genuinely, right? Okay, all the memes, all the weird and wonderful stories that you hear about Padres, I will hands down say are true. I've had some of the most odd conversations I've had with the Padre. Um, yeah, I've probably paused there so I don't get anyone fired or sacked.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

But I remember I remember being in Afghan, and um I don't know why. I'd love to say it was Christmas, but I don't think it was Christmas. The padre walked into the office uh who was just the most welcome figure at all times, such a good bloke. Absolutely. I'll keep his name out of this because he definitely should have done what he did next. He just pulled out a bottle of wine. I was like, We're in like central cabool, definitely all dry, like not meant to be drinking anything. He's like, anyone for a glass of wine? He sort of looked at our boss, he was like, Yeah, go on then. I was like, leaving. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

So we had we had one where so with you work closely with the Padres, and so they are part, and you and you know, just I was what early twenties at the time. So saying like Jesus Christ is just your standard vernacular, you don't meet you, just throw it out. And day one or two, one of them came up to us and said, like, you know what, we're taking the Lord's name in vain. Appreciate we're all here, we're under pressure. Can you not do it, please? And we're like, you know what? Actually, we're working in closed confines, we'll respect that. So we had an unofficial rule that if anyone did it, we would you know do 10 press ups, just like that's it done. Fast forward two, three months. This was just a common thing done. If it slipped out, 10 press-ups, you don't upset the Padres, that's it. We did an Wide Awake, went past one of the other colleges and someone spat out Oh Jesus Christ. And then the Padre pipped up and said, you know, in our plitting that would be 10 press ups. So he did due diligence, boshed them out. Unbeknownst to us, he put it in his punishment logbook. It then went higher than anything up to the like director of Sandhurst going like, Who the hell is this Padre handing out punishments came back down? And this poor Padre, it's a sort of like I felt sorry for the colour sergeant who had to sort of rein him in a bit because he just turned around. I was like, Can't tell you off because you like my dad, because he was like mid-50s at the time, and he just went like, Yeah, just don't do it again, Padre.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Padre wants your chest suddenly massive.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Yeah, yeah, it's just like just no move on anyway.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Awesome. Um, so at this point, then so you've all done AOSB main board short. I don't know if it was called that at the time, but that's what it is now. So that's the it's I actually think it presents a real challenge to people going through because what you have now, the process at the moment, is uh for you're just joining as a normal officer, you do and or a reserve officer, by the way, you go and do briefing first, you pass that, and then you move on to main board. So by the time you go and do main board where the assessments are slightly harder, I'd say slightly, they're actually quite a lot harder. You've already got the fear of the unknown out of the way, you get Westbury, you understand what it is, you've had a go at it already. But for you guys, you don't do briefing, you just do main board short, I'm pretty sure. So it's just that one go. So it's it's like the the pass, fail, the succeed, not succeed, is just in that one three-day grilling.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Yeah, pretty much. And it's one of those. So for me, I remember it's like you're trying to study, because you're still at university, you're still working, and then it's suddenly like, oh, I better get two newspapers out, read the BBC News, sort of like get, you know, and trying to gen up on all your sort of current affairs, which I was completely, you know, I was in university, it was just flying by me and trying to relearn speed distance time calculations and sort of like kind of like I think you know they they were sort of it's worthwhile though not neglecting your studies because that was very much asked of like where are you at with your studies? Where are you are you going to pass? Because that will factor into sort of what's going on from that point. But again, you almost have you do have to sort of be aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Nice, and then all of you go and do the uh PQO course at Sandhurst. So that is a mixture of everyone going everywhere um to either be a padre or a doctor or whatever. So that's everyone I'm doing. Once you do that, then what happens?

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah, so doctors get um carted out, they've moved it now, so it's now at, I want to say Lichfield. Yeah, Lichfield over in sort of so just on the outskirts of Birmingham, where it's sort of like the home of the medical services, where effectively you're in accommodation, nice accommodation, and then they've got a number of training blocks and training areas. And what they're doing is they're trying to bridge that gap in your training that the NHS has generally provided you and university has provided you, and to sort of boost you up. So you can think of your obvious stereotypes, so like your trauma medicine, but then a lot of what I think is not touched upon is things like your occupational medicine, your tropical medicine, all these other sort of weird and wonderful things that come out that are actually huge in the military setting, um, that are the majority of a job, actually. So yeah, they sort of plow you through that for four months.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

And that's four months, is it? Correct, yeah. So one of the questions that I had from um someone who's looking to go down as a as a PQO is how do they bridge any knowledge gaps? But it sounds like that's the phase two, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

So you get put through a load of courses, so you get through your Battlefield Advanced Trauma Life Support course, which means that you can do a higher level of resuscitation. Um, they'll put you through, like they'll have specialists through to give you a condensed tropical medicine course, which is over two, three days, which is awesome because we got to um where were we at the moment? We got to go to one of the tropical med schools to actually see a bucket load of no, sorry, that was a different course that I did, but they give you a condensed version of it just so you know what you're looking out for. Oh, cool. So it's sort of like they get the experts in, and that's the benefit of like compared to being in the NHS setting, you're like, you're getting these colonels who are then experts in their field, like tropical medicine, cardiology, etc., coming in saying, like, can you teach on this course? Yeah, that's cool. And because you're military as well, they will answer you and they will help out.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

And are you fully trained at the not in the military, but you've finished university by the time you go and do your phase two? How does that work? So you're as a doctor, no.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Okay. It it's interesting because so you are trained as a doctor, so I you can you are technically a doctor, you all hold GMC registration. But the other bit, and that's worthwhile for anyone looking at the other services, it's sort of certainly with the RAF, it's sort of you're not specialty trained at that moment in time. So thinking about your general practitioners, your surgeons, your AE consultants, and actually with certainly with the RAF careers, what they do is they can, or they certainly did it when I was going through, they condensed the the almost the junior doctor element, what's called the general duties medical officer element, with the idea being, right, we want you through your training, you're more useful as a consultant. Oh, really? Yeah, so it's sort of like it varies, whereas the Navy and the Army, um, their total GDMO time, as it's called, was three years if you it take into account phase one, phase two. Yeah, because they then utilize junior doctors for medical cover. Yeah. So, like for me, I would be on as a junior doctor, I would be one of the team covering large exercises for smaller deployments. They might not send a fully qualified GP as in like a major MO. They might just send, like, well, actually, it's just like a squadron or company going out, you need a bit more make cover, we just send a junior doctor out with a with a decent mobile phone. Yeah. Um, so you you're utilized a lot that way, like in the Navy. So my wife was in the Navy, hence why I sort of know this inside and out. There's sort of like on all the so, for example, on the type 45s, they are junior doctors that are on there in terms of rank and experience. Whereas the larger, so think about like um Queen Elizabeth, that sort of size ship, they are they will have a whole team, including quite highly ranked and trained professionals. So it depends, they balance out the risk, the medical risk, with who they're gonna send.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Okay, all right, got you. So maybe just to rewind a bit. So um, so ASB mainboard short PQO course at Sandhurst, and that is just for people um watching, that is gonna be military skills, nothing to do with what phase two is gonna be, which is where you all specialise. And just to take you back to that, are we talking basic navigation, basic weapon handling, basic exercises, and then maybe a touch on the combat estimate, that type of stuff? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

So I butchered the combat estimate in my uh phase. So that but that's very much the Sandhurst training. Got you. So they sort of go through that, like, can you do a combat estimate? Can you do well? I mean, I was terrible. I'm really, really sorry for anyone if they were teaching me that. Um I got through it on personality and charm. I think that was basically it. Whereas actually then the phase two side was very much training you to right, you're gonna be a medical officer, here's a casualty, how are you gonna deal with it?

SPEAKER_00 19:46

So did you ever touch on the combat estimate again in your career after Sandhurst?

SPEAKER_02 19:53

So we did in phase two, but then what they altered it was to the medical combat estimate. Got you, okay, right. That makes sense. So, so for example, uh, and they do a hypothetical, right? We're going into this town, you know, how many gunshot wounds would you expect? You know, it's a 45 degrees midday heat. We're going out at uh 100 hours, like how many people with heat in illness are you gonna get?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

That sort of so actually you take it much for from the med side of view, in terms of like the environment, what you know, what injuries of pattern are you most likely going to get, yeah. And should be able to present that back and reflect that back to effectively the CO so that they can make their plan based on your med estimate. Got you.

Arriving At Unit With Captain Rank

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Okay, all right. And then once you've done, once you commission straight in as captain, right? Yep. Straight in as captain. So that kind of brings us on to the next phase of your career and definitely sort of the next batch of questions, I guess I've got. Oh, yeah. Which is um, yeah, how does that next part work? So you you've done your phase two and you find out which unit you're going to, and I imagine that's pretty similar to because you have to go and do interviews, right? To find out where you're going.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

No, so it's you get there, are sort of like generally speaking, you'll get assigned to a medical regiment. So each medical regiment will get approximately four or five like captains, yeah, that will sort of get you'll be assigned basically to a medical center. They may put you on posting out to a different regiment saying, like, right, well, they're going on this exercise, you need to be assigned to them. So they'll sort of like cut your way for say the month or two before, so you can do all the necessary training and then send you out. Oh, okay. So, like if there's a large exercise going on. So, for example, fast forward a couple of years, um, when I was the medical officer for um one of the Kenyan exercises, I had, for example, around me, I had four um junior doctors that I was there to help support them, for example. So, like for these large massive area exercises, you need to have this medical cover sort of scattered around. So it was great fun. So I got to go out to Canada. Twice. Um, I didn't do an Afghan. I'm gonna put that out there. So just so that no one, you know, don't get any Walter Mittie sort of comments in the section. So um, and I was assigned, I was quite lucky, I think, looking back that I was assigned to the King's Royal Hussars. They were short of a medical officer and me stepping in as effectively an assistant medical officer. So they did have a medical officer there, but she was leaving in about 18 months, so I was holding the post for like six, twelve months whilst they waited for the next one to come in. Okay, which was great fun.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Absolutely. Yeah, it sounds great. So you you get there, and then one of the questions that I had from someone was how did you feel you were received by that the place you were put okay? Especially because you are, you know, very well qualified by that point, you've done a lot, right? Yeah, but pretty new in the military in terms of you know joining a unit, and you still, I imagine, got to go through the whole how does this battalion beast work or whatever that process is. But you're also walking around with Captain Rank's side, so people would assume that you know what's going on at that point. Absolutely. So there'll be comments to say captains don't know what they're doing. I certainly didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

So uh it's it was one of those of yeah, so I think mentally, I think you have to eat a huge chunk of humble pie. And the doctors that I saw do badly went out there with the cock of the walk, like thinking they were this, that, and the other, and the next Rambo with you know, a stethoscope, basically. And I was like, no, and the best bit of advice that I got from um a very dear friend of mine who was is still serving was like you crap at the military side, don't pretend otherwise. And so actually, when what you found was that like your team, you'd get say like your Lance Corporal, your corporals who were nailing it with regards to the medical side, oh the military side, be like, sir, let me just help you out with this. Yeah, like, yes, please, thank you, corporal. Whereas actually, if you'd taken a slightly different approach and been like, no, I can do it myself, and blah blah blah, it's sort of like no, just be you need to be flexible and realise that where your strengths lie, yeah, and that might not be in the military setting. Yeah. Um, and so, and I also went, I remember joined, and I joined the same, I joined KRH at a similar time as a couple of lieutenants and like second lieutenants, and I was like, I'm more aligned to them than I am the captain, yeah. But in terms of like, you know, just walking around a bit clueless, not knowing what to do, you know, even just all the abbreviations like I don't know what this means, like help me, please. Um thankfully though, I think you've just it's hard to do, but you've got to just really chuck yourself in. I lived in the mess, which was a huge help. Yeah. So, but even then adjusting to, you know, I'd I had no experience of cavalry officer life, which is just a different world. So when I I remember rocking up and they said, like, oh doc, you're lucky this week, it's uh you don't need your dinner jacket. And I went, What? I didn't rock up with what are you on about? It was like, yeah, yeah, dinner jacket. I was like, What? So that weekend had to go to MS, buy what's called a fighting dinner jacket, so one that you don't mind, you know, having a couple of scrapes in. Yeah. Um, and they basically turn around and went, Yeah, yeah, but just every night you're in dinner jacket. I was like, Really? Like, yeah, unless you've got an excuse and you've got to speak to the adj about it while you're not at dinner. I was like, okay, and you just you've just got to roll with it.

Sick Parade And Occupational Medicine

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah, I love that. The the cavalry calling it fighting jackets. Uh in our battalion, we called it piss rig. Fair one. Yeah. Um, cool. And so how does that process work then? So you arrive, and then I guess what's your actual job on a day-to-day basis? Because I I think when I has obviously just gained more experience, and then uh we had a med officer who is who's living in as well, and it helps to understand so much a bit more about like what on earth is actually happening. But definitely when I was a second lieutenant, you're like, I don't understand any of this, or really who's doing it. I understand the role, but I don't really understand what you're doing on a day-to-day basis, how it feeds into what we're doing as well. So, how does that bit work? What are you actually up to?

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah, so you're week to week would look you the frustrating bit, and what really frustrated me is that you're almost master of two colonels. Because you'll often get you've got your regimental colonel who you've got to sort of like, you know, do what they ask and provide any medical reports, etc. etc. Um, and be their advisor. But then you'll often, so in the larger bases, so I was down in Tidworth, there was a colonel of that medical centre as well, who would expect you, and there is an expectation that you, a bit like running a general practice, that you'll see the daily sick parade, that you'll see your own soldiers. So that was generally in the morning, so all your coughs, colds, hurt ankles, sad soldiers, etc. etc. And then in the afternoon would be very much down to the huge beast, which is not really talked about, of occupational medicine. So if you've hurt yourself, you're medically downgraded, you know, having these regular check-ins and checkups, are you on the appropriate grading? And sort of like, are you ready to deploy? Are you fit deployed and doing that way? So it's a huge workload. And that would be you generally work there for about two, three days a week, but sort of scattered throughout the week, and then you've got to balance that against your regimental duties as well. So like training your medics, any unit healthcare committee meetings, you've got to sort of make sure you get out the CO's briefing, that sort of like, because you're still sort of it under that bubble as well as one of the essential parts of the of the team. So you're balancing all of these out, and you know, I'm not I didn't get it right, but it was really hard to do.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yeah, that that that balance is definitely the challenge. I think for anyone that's that's new into role, and also you know, I actually remember a good mate of mine um was the ops officer at one point, I won't say specifically when, uh, because he might get picked, but he said to me, to be good in this job, you need to understand what's really important, and then basically fuck everything else off. And I was like, oh wow. Um, and I I might have took that too literally at certain points in various roles, but it sounds like that, trying to figure out okay, look, we're probably not gonna be able to do absolutely everything here. So, what's really important, what do we need to do now and get this done really well? Um, you also shared sort of um messaging and whatnot about how you learnt from those that were already there, right? So, do you want to share a bit about how that works?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Absolutely. So I go back to my humble pie comment, and I think you've got to reflect when I joined, so I was not lined up to do an operational tour, you know, we were towards the end of Afghan, so sort of like Herrick. I think those are my peers who went was like 1819, so towards the latter end. But I then was thrown into leading an RAP where the Lance Corporal's been out twice, another Lance Corporal's just come back off their second Afghan as well. You've got a corporal who's done two Iraqs and two Afghanistans, and you've you know, so you've got these, even though on rank they are you know, you are superior, but from experience and operational experience is like you need to wind your neck in. Yeah. And sort of like so, and and that's where you know, that period of time, the sort of like, and even the regiment were 18 months post their tour, so they were very, very experienced. And so it was one of those that my um she was a corporal at the time, thankfully made sergeant, still in actually. She's got about six months to go, she's done 24 years, where she very much like went, sir, this is how it's gonna work. Like, if I tell you to do something, you'll do it. And you know what? Credit to her, she let me let me make mistakes, and then she came back round and said, Like, I told you to do that, sir. Yeah, you'll do it again. And I was like, Yep, thank you, Rachel. Um, I only say that only because you know we had such a good relationship at the end of it that we're still firm friends now. So, my uh one of my daughters, her middle name is Rachel because she was absolute quality, and I was like, I need that carried through, yeah. Um, so yeah, and she was one that took me from very new and green to this is how it runs, yeah. And I think being you need to be open to that, and I'm not sure doctors are always the best people at doing that.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Why, because you've done a lot just to get to that point, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Like you're you know, you think almost your whole training, your whole career is very much the doctor's in charge, you know, you're going on the ward round as the doctors, and then suddenly you are just a you are a cog in that machine, an important cog, don't get me wrong, but you know, at the end of the day, you fall under the banner of combat service support, you are not the main effort, and you'd sort of like at times that can really great when you're you feel like you just say, like, why is no one listening to me? It's like, yeah, because no one, you know, you're being a bit boring, Doc.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Actually, that's not important, this is important. And I think I think what's interesting is is people sort of think um like the leadership lessons. And I've had a few conversations with some people that are joining as a PQO, and I've tried to sort of, you know, mentor as best as I can. Um, but it's about what that leadership is, and I'm like, well, actually, it's it's all the other stuff. Yes, you're gonna know your role, but it then it's learning about how that filters into, well, in your case, a couple of different chains of commands and all that type of stuff, and and then running that I don't know if you call it a subunit, you probably wouldn't call it a subunit. Oh, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

I I normally just went either UAP, unit eight post or regimental aid post that sort of like you you know, you've got a group of generally between six and ten. Is it okay? Sort of like medics under your so I would normally have uh two lance corporals, two corporals, uh a sergeant, a nurse, and that was us really. So we're quite a quite a small entity, but important, and and it varies due to cat badge. So you find so like infantry regiments will have a large RAP presence because they've got a lot to do, whereas actually the smaller ones you might not even see them.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

If they're sort of broken down more into subunits, so like intelligence, there will often be bits and pieces dot around there, they might not have an established play post.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

How did you find that? So my my brother, I can't remember when he would have got to battalion, um, and I've spoken with a few people on the podcast, obviously just people I know. Joining a unit which is recently seen action, and you know, you're talking about there sort of seeing the end of those Herricks, which might not have been as punches, but still stuff going on, right? And those people would have served for probably the other ones as well. Absolutely, yeah. How did you manage that? Because that sounds like really difficult. I joined a really sort of operationally experienced battalion, but by the time I'd got there, Herrick was completely sort of over and Torrel was well in play, and they'd already done a Torrel, so they had seen the shift in those operations. So I never felt like I wasn't um, I was just felt like I was really welcomed. But I know that some people might not have had that experience because someone's just come back from a really punchy tour and and whatever. So I don't know how you sort of handled that or whether what your experience was.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

I I think with what was interesting is that the medical officer that I sort of served under went out with them. Um so and I think medics or the medical services as a whole, you suddenly everyone got it, got why meds medics were there. So actually you got a bit of a green light. So you'd get a lot, and I had this time and time again that I would come in and they're like, Oh yeah, meds are really important, and then you'd just chatting to them as like you know, and they would often mention about uh their operational experience, and they would say, like, well, actually, you realised your corporal medic saved so-and-so. Yeah, that's quite something, isn't it? Yeah, and so you would get these, and they would look after, and each each of them would have their favoured medic because and there would always be, or I say always, there'd generally be a story about how like you realised your medic there, even though he's been, you know, he's mucking about in camp and whatnot, but actually on tour, he was absolutely gleaming. You know, we took him on patrol all the time, we always asked for him, etc. etc. etc. And then it's sort of like and then you go, another medicine, like, you know, she was really good as well. Um, you know, great training. And and because everyone, I think what's frustrating, what was good for the medical service for Afghanistan is the amount of work they did and high quality work that everyone suddenly got why med was important and really were like, no, no, we need to look after these guys. And so I was able to step into that and was very much like, yeah, yeah, you're important, yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

And it's trying to maintain that education and momentum as we're not, you know, thankfully, that operate, you know, we're not getting those large-scale operations, touch wood, sort of, but then people, and I could see it towards the end, people were it was more of a fight. So as I sort of went, did my GP training, came back in, it was a bit more of a med was not at the forefront of people's. Oh, really? There'd been sort of a bit of a culture shift, maybe. Yeah, and you could see uh like we would meet on a regular basis, like the uh in the medic side, and going like, actually, you know, we need to keep on, they were fighting like we need to keep fighting why Afghan was important, what we learned from a medical point of view.

Mental Health Care That Fits Military Life

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah, okay. Yeah, it's really interesting. I guess so you served for 11 years, right? And and it would have been that bridge of Herrick finishing, coming into the next phase of operations and what type of operations they were. What sort of maybe stood out to you is I don't know, culture shift or in that time from a medical perspective? And I guess some of the questions that I'm might be more prompting is um definitely from what I saw. So I joined in 2016. Um I definitely saw a shift towards like mental health being being a higher priority. And I'm not saying it wasn't when I joined, but I and definitely from serving with people that have done a lot longer than me and way harder things than I did, where you know they deployed early on a Herrick and mental health wasn't really spoken about, to then now we're actually there, you know. I had Harry, uh who I know you know on the podcast, who was really open about some of those mental health challenges, and actually sung the army's praises on how he felt supported during that process. So I don't know if there's anything sort of takeaways that you've got from that period.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Yeah, and there was definitely very much more, and I think it sort of filtered through. So I sort of uh as I joined the Light Dragoons as their medical officer, so hence where I bumped into Harry, um, where it was very clear that a lot of the, and I think it was really the it was actually it was everyone, which makes med so much easier. Like the sort of the kernel all the way down driving that mental health awareness and mental health um sort of like just awareness from it. I remember that I managed to get hold of um a free meditation app, a headspace, and then I was talking about it, and everyone you can just tell everyone's just a bit of switching off. And then the 2IC piped up and said, No, no, I use that, that's really good. It's a really good app, great work doc on getting free bits. I hadn't done anything, I just sort of passing on the messages, but it carried so much weight that the regimental 2IC had sort of pushed it out as a good thing that actually that just filtered down, and then again you were getting these you know, from a regimental point of view, you're getting people with longer term like PTSD because it's sort of like just been building up and they were now in high ranks going like, yeah, I know what this looks like, I've been through it myself. So I'd had some myself, I'd had some quite significant sort of family trauma side thing sort of hit me sort of like towards you know, my last couple of years of my military career. Um, I ended up going through DCMH, so the sort of the mental health sort of services that they offer, and alongside that, I was offered NHS, and I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna say yes, I know how important counselling and all that bit is, and I ended up falling out with the NHS counsellor, and I think what people don't appreciate is that counselling, all the therapies in the world, the the thing, in my opinion, and sort of I think there is some evidence to back this, that will mean you'll get the most out of it is if you click and if you understand the other person on the other side of the couch. And guess what? If someone's in green or is around military all the time or just gets it, you're gonna get on with them far better.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

So actually being in that environment and actually accessing that is so, so vitally important.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Yeah, I guess there's a lot less you need to explain as well. Correct. Like, hey, I get it, it's a different way of life, it's got its own do's and don'ts, and culture and what's important and what's not, and yeah, how things go and severity as well.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Okay, it's dark things, even like swearing in a consultation, like you know, yeah. So, like even now, like I have to be very careful because I'll flick into I'll drop it, you know, this, that, and the other. Whereas in a if I'm chatting to a private, I'll swear. Yeah, because actually that's how they talk, and that's you know, so when you're receiving that care, you speak, you need to be able to drop and speak to the person you're speaking to at that time, and they get that.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Yeah, God, it's that's actually a really interesting but I'm I'm not gonna dive away from that conversation because I think it's really interesting, but just on the swearing point, because it comes up a lot. I remember being sat at Sandhurst and um I knew I wanted to join the infantry, and uh I'd already had very limited exposure, but through my my brother who was serving, yeah, um, a bit of a notice, and I knew all the officers did swear. I'm not talking like constantly, some did actually. Um more than that, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I remember doing sort of an officer and a gentleman type session at Sandhurst, and funnily enough, the guy that was delivering the session was like, you shouldn't swear, and then grip someone up in that session falling asleep, swearing at them. I was like, so it kind of we were kind of all doing. And I think there is a I actually feel really strongly that there is a time and a place for it. And okay, if you're really trying to send a message, you don't want to dilute the message, you don't want to swear because you have a poor range of vocabulary, fine. Yeah, but actually sometimes it can really just help humanize you to the people that you're speaking to. Sometimes it's great about enforcing a point, sometimes it's great about showing a bit of anger if that's the effect that you want, and sometimes it's just about leveling yourself a little bit in and including others into the conversation. And I remember, you know, I'm not the the the brightest um spark ever. And when I was doing Purdue Commanders battle course, there's some really intelligent people that were joining the infantry, and some of the jargon they were using in um an orders process, I was like, I don't have a fucking clue what you guys are about. So your private soldiers aren't gonna. I think the one thing I did have is this my plans were always quite simple, but they were communicated relatively simply because I just didn't have the words that other people did.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

No, and and I think exactly the same with certainly doctors going. I bet, yeah. Because sort of like behind closed doors in that consultation room, I wish, and I some of the doctors actually did this, almost wish I could throw the rank slide away. Because actually, you get some poor trooper private going like, Oh, I'm speaking to a major, and you're like, No, I need you to talk to me. So, like if they said, like, oh, my back's in clip, and you're like, You're in fucking clip mate. Yeah, it's like and you could see them going like, oh, you speak like a human.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

And just so you do need to adjust to who you're speaking to. It's quite a hard skill because, like, suddenly you might go from seeing a bunch of privates, corporals speaking like that, and then suddenly you could get dragged in front of the CO back briefing on someone that you're worried about. And so you need to sort of adjust your, you know, adjust how you speak accordingly. Um, and I've had it where you might get someone quite high up who's actually going, like, right, come on, doc, give me a back brief on this, and you're like, okay, right, I've got to speak very differently here. So I think it's the flexibility, and you need to speak to your audience. Yeah, but I agree with you completely. I'm I hate jargon. Yeah. Because no one gets you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just like, yeah, just speak normally, take them and medical medicine's full of jargon. Yeah. And sort of like, no, speak. God, and then medicine in the military as well. Oh, so much, so much. I mean, and it, you know what, hats off. Um, like, I won't name whom because he's he's still in. Um, took me to one side and said, shut the door. Dog. What the heck is 1012? I was like, right, yeah. I was like, for a start, well done, and you know, that very much like well done, right, right, pen and paper up, that's what it means, you know. Yeah, yeah. You know, one back to someone who's battle strain, so that's you know, and just chatted through it from that way. But yeah, it's but there's so much jargon behind it that you are then expected to quite senior people to translate that for them because that's what your job is.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, maybe just revert back to what you said because it uh I think it's a really um interesting issue if you're comfortable talking about it a little bit on I guess that that journey. Um, I never went through that part of DCMH, etc. But from my understanding of well, definitely and just being in the military, like the medical support that you get is fantastic. Yeah. Um and it was really interesting to hear Harry's perspective on how much that supported him and and how much value he got from it. Um, I don't know what you want to share on that.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

No, I I completely agree, and I sort of reflect back certainly with now I'm in the NHS setting, you're like, oh wow, this is actually very good. Just in terms of waiting times alone, really, the fact that you can get referred, and then within, say, like later that week, the next week, you're getting some form of input, which now as I sit as an NHS GP, it's sort of like, yeah, no chance from that way. Even and you know, the big things for me that strike true is sort of like your physiotherapy support for all your sort of like your bony injuries, and also the mental health support is sort of like, yeah, it is second to none compared to it. Um, and I think that's where certainly I sit with like veterans struggle as they transition from quite high input to then an NHS service, and they just sometimes, and what I find is helpful is that they will then, you know, I wear my veterans pin badge, not because I like to particularly, but actually it's good for patients now going like, oh yeah, you get it. Yeah, and you can see them relax, yeah, puts them at ease a bit. Yeah, and you you add that bit. So I then you know, it was an interesting time when I hit it. It was sort of around when COVID kicked off as well, so it's sort of all yeah, not brilliant from that point of way. And basically it was just they were very much like, yeah, I had regular sessions with them. I went through I think six, six or so counselling sessions um that they were brilliant about. I then got back to full fitness, um Uh we managed to I deployed uh with the light dragoons to the medical officer, which was one of those, and I think probably maybe a stereotypically male thing to do that I don't think I quite healed, and I'd never deployed before. So there was that chomping at the bit, wanting to go do what I'd signed up to do, not realizing the mental strain that it would have. And ultimately that I had another sort of break whilst on tour, and thankfully, my colonel was very I sort of it was my sergeant actually, because we were sharing a room at the time, going, So you're not right. Really? Yeah. So he I loved that sergeant to bits. If he's watching, he knows who he is. So yeah, he was one of those, you know, he absolutely we were sharing a room, he said, like, you're not yourself, Doc, I know you well enough. And he'd had a quiet word with the colonel. And he sort of then a couple of days after that, I'd had a chat with the colonel going, like, yeah, no, I'm not gonna do this. Or I said, like, I'm really sorry, I can't do this. And thankfully, they knew enough because I'd been with the regiment for and they'd been through everything that had happened in my family that they were like, Yep, get it, Doc. And sort of like, I think that was on the Monday, Tuesday, and I was on the flight home on the Friday.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Really? So just needed a bit of time. Yeah, it was just like boom. And and what I find really interesting about that particular story is is that other people noticed it before you well, maybe you had noticed it, but maybe didn't want to admit it or no, I I was very much I felt I got to a point I felt like I was putting a mask on.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Like it was like I was in my room, but then you're on operations, like there's not much space to hide.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

And actually, my sergeant, I'd gone way, like I really, really like, you know, if you get a good sergeant, if you click with them, oh, it's just that's the one thing I missed the most. Like, I miss him every day. It's the fucking best. Yeah, it's the fucking best. I was just like, yeah, just having him around. We used to, it was one that I had to get to a point of like, oh, I do need to tell you off for that, but it was hilarious. I was like, oh no, no, no, actually, okay, I'm the officer here, let's be, you know, yeah. But it was I miss him to bits. Yeah. I absolutely miss him to bits. Yeah, definitely. Um, he had my back a couple of times when I sort of was a bit curt with him, he'd was like, Yeah, I'm gonna make you pay for that. And I was like, you know what, I'll apologise. I was in the wrong for their sergeant, but no, he was absolutely gleaming, and he sort of he'd had a word with the colonel, and then he turned around to me and said, Look, if you hadn't have said anything within a couple of days, I would have put my foot down. Yeah. And actually it was like, Yeah, fair play to you. Yeah, and I think what happened was I realized then that with and I think that's the one bit that's not talked about is the sort of the family side, and I sort of realised that I wasn't, I'd got a young family at the time. I've got a three-year-old with another one on the way, and it's hard trying to balance that. But the problem is is that it's hard because you're going away, or the threat of going away, which is even worse, and then it's all on your other half. Yeah, and I sort of realized that I wasn't being the father, I was putting so much on her, and she was professional in her own right, she was a navy doctor, she'd left, um, but was still doing her AE training. So it was sort of like I'm putting a lot on you, yeah. And that and actually the jolt off coming back off tour was very much like, yeah, you know what? Probably not in the right situation. And though, and in fairness, this was my decision, and the army were very much like, no, stay, we'll put you in a non-deployable post, we'll you know, do this, that, and the other, you'll get all the support you need, and then you'll get be alright, which was fine. But then I sort of realized like I don't really want to be a non-deployable officer, yeah. It just didn't sit right with me, yeah. Um, and you know, and I thought I'm not being it was and for me, I was like, I'm not being a good dad, I'm not being a good husband, and I'm not doing what I want to do at a job. Something needs to change. And then so I'd had a chat with my the Rog OC, who'd um he was also heavily involved in its charity called the Warrior Programme, which I'd strongly recommend anyone who's just struggling, basically, not even having a definitive mental health problem. Um, I basically, on my exit, he said, I'm running the local Warrior program. So this is over in, you know, I I live up in the northeast, so he was running the Darlington branch. Go and join, you know, just do it. And so I did it online for a week and it just set my mind so clear that I was doing the right thing. I was like, Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it's sort of like, you know, and I don't want to say I do not regret doing my military career. If you've got young doctors and I've got medical students on my practice who are, and you you can tell if they're that way inclined, you're like, just have a look. I would strongly recommend. But I think as soon as young family come along, you need to have a it changes a bit. It does change, and you need to recognise that. And you may still, and I've got people who've got young families still serving and fair play to them, but you need to be really mindful of what how you want to feature in that.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Yeah, definitely. I think it's it's a really interesting point of a leadership challenge that some often goes overlooked. Yeah. And I think what many people might not realise with Taurin, um, I had Johnny Mercer on the pod uh a few months back, and he, I don't know if you've seen it, he he politely gripped me up like halfway through. Viewers might not have quite realised it, but I knew what he was doing. I was basically, when I talk about my operational experience, Optoral 7, I usually uh sort of underplay it because it wasn't anything too punchy. And he sort of gripped me up there and was like, Well, look, you're still away from home for six months, it's still stressful. And he's absolutely right to grip me up for that as well, because you shouldn't underplay your operational experience. And what people don't realise is that it's not comparing Apples and pairs here, it's saying that, okay, for that period of time, look, we didn't know when we were going to deploy, we didn't know when we were bloody coming home. First, we didn't deploy with any RR, then we got RR, but I couldn't tell my girlfriend when it was. And there's all that sort of stress. And I was 25 or 26 or something, uh, and he uh my platoon sergeant, sorry, he had a young family, and his house got infested with rats as well when we were away. And there was a my OC did a gleaming job at fixing this because he sort of came to me and I could hear him raging in our room. We shared a room on tour. Um, and I didn't know how to sort that problem for him, but I also maybe didn't quite appreciate how important it was to solve that for him because he's away from his family, he's the male, he's the protector, and what all that sort of stuff that you get, and you know, he's he's coming home from patrol and he's got messages on his phone from his wife saying, Oh, the buddy rats again, and we've got a young daughter, and she might have been pregnant at the time as well, and it's all that sort of stuff, which is so hard to deal with anyway. But also on tour, you've got no days off, it's it's every day is is groundhog day, and especially on Toral 7, it was fucking boring most of the time, to be honest with you. So it was just no break from it. And I remember um when we did finally get R. I took it because I'm not an idiot, and I came back, and I remember actually falling out with a really good, another platoon commander, a really good mate of mine, just before I came back. Um, and it was over the most stupid thing. Uh, and I'd probably piss a couple of people off on the talk because I was getting really sort of just caught up in like cabin fever type mode. Took a bit of a break for two weeks, came back um to the theatre, and was just a better platoon commander because I was more relaxed. Not that I wasn't due doing my due diligence, not that I wasn't on it, but just because I was more relaxed and I had got myself out of the pressure cooker for a little bit and come back. And I thought, wow, if that's what that's done for me, imagine what like he's going through with his family, imagine what some of my soldiers might be going through. There were soldiers that finished, um, went on RR, came back, and their girlfriends dumped them immediately, or they've been cheated on, and all that type of stuff. And it's like, fucking, there's a lot there. And just because we weren't going out war fighting every single day doesn't mean that it wasn't a really stressful situation in that moment. And I think sometimes that's it, it's a bit of a play. I found that really hard to acknowledge because I was on tour with people that had done the hard stuff. So I was like, Well, I can't compare, I can't really talk about this being stressful because it's easy, but actually it is stressful and it's my only experience.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Yeah, and I had similar where even though so I ended up because they were short of medical officers, I ended up doing two back-to-back Kenyan exercises, which is sort of like big deal, it's an exercise. It was like, and everyone around me was like, Yeah, but they push you a bit through it. And then on the um, so I was out there, I did what was it, you know, go out for a month and then I was back in camp for a couple of weeks, and then sort of back out with a different battle group, and it's like, I am tired by the end of this.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Was that recce and then go as in you do a recce of the whole med stuff, or was it the exercise before? The actual exercise. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

So it was two different, and even that wasn't with my regiment. So they sort of the joys of medical officers is that you know, if there's a space to fill, someone needs to fill it. And so, you know, I got the adj pull me in the office and said, like, right, doc, fancy going to uh Kenya for three months, and I was like, not really. It was like, sucks to be you, you're the only one who can go. So as of January, so I think they had light screens for playing the enemy, um, and then I was the doc for the main battle group, and then it was like, Yeah, we haven't got one for the next one, so you're it as well. And then at you saying about that in terms of the external sort of like, I wouldn't say pressures, but just feeling useless. It was January time, my kid was young at the time, and then I got a t we were due to go out of the gate at like three in the morning, some stupid early time. I got a text uh just as I was trying to get an early night going, yeah, I'm in A E because you know he's got really bad wheeze, probably needs some steroids, and like great, and that's me not sleeping, you know, and so it's just those external bits, and you think, uh, you know, it's all on you, it's all as in like the other half. Yeah, and yeah, it's you I think you've got to be mindful of that and come to terms with that. And I couldn't, hence why I left.

Mali Tour Medicine And COVID Reality

SPEAKER_00 53:43

Yeah, it's it's that self-leadership piece, isn't it? To be able to lead others, you've got to first like identify exactly your own things. And I think one of the things you share there about other people seeing it in you is it's knowing your team both ways. Yes, and the better you know your team, the better they're gonna know you. So if you're not firing on all cylinders, they'll be able to spot it, and definitely you as a commander, your role is to see that in your people as well. I think that's really a really interesting piece. So I don't know if you want to go into much on operational experience, if there's much to unpack there, is the medical officer. Oh, it was a fun time.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

So we went out, it was awesome in a way. It was uh threw so much effort into it. So we went out to Mali. Um, so it was the long-range reconnaissance group. We were rotation one, so we were sort of going from zero to you know, figure out what this is. Yeah, it's like pretty much here you go, here's an empty camp, make it work, and you're like, oh god. Um, working alongside the Germans who were stereotypically German, always befriended German because they'll do everything for you, but they are a bit stereotypically German about it, and then on the other camp with the French, who were very stereotypically French, um, we were doing a but they had a big hospital on that side that we were able to use. So we were like, right, we need to do a med recy, got it all cleared, um, as I thought. So we rocked up with one of our armoured ambulances just to test the route, test how to get through. And then this French full colonel just blew a gasket. This has not been cleared, this, that, the other. What are you doing with the British ambulance just rocking up unannounced? And I was like, right, I need to apologise to my colonel for this. Sort of like, so we turned down, turned around, um, tails between the legs, and then it's very much like when it was a colonel's like, I'm really sorry, Colonel, this happened just in case, you know. I appreciate you might be on a briefing or something, and they get chest poking. I was like, All right, Doc, so what you're telling me the French got very French about it. I was like, Yeah, that's bad. That's another short of it. So, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, and that was interesting in terms of then, and what the big thing about your role as a medical officer. So, when you're deploying out, you know, Mali, bad malaria, basically. So, you know, you've got to get all your anti-malarial sorted for the troops, um, all your vaccinations because there's rabies out there as well. You've got the heat, and so all your, even though that's more of a chain of command responsibility, you've still got, you know, you'd be you're dealing with the oversight of that one. Um, and I did grip a couple of corporals when they were doing it the wrong way, um, and sort of like just making sure that has everyone been acclimatised completely. The Germans thought we were completely weird because they would say, like, why are you marching around? Like, I see one one one lot in shorts and t-shirts, I see another one in full combat, and you're all marching in the heat, aren't you gonna? And it's like, heat acclimatisation. I was like, What? Yeah, no idea whatsoever. I spoke to two IC and said, Can I share you know all the doctrine about this? And he was like, Yeah, absolutely, doc. You know, European ally, all that chucked it over to them. And the German um full colonel, like senior medical officer, was like, This this is brilliant. The next day, they're doing heat acclimatisation as well. So, any German listeners, I'm really sorry. I will deny all knowledge on a horrible med plan to do exactly it's like, yep, I've wasted your two weeks for it, and then that was um, though operationally there was it was very much an establishing, and they did do a couple of long-range patrols, it was completely hampered by COVID. Um, so you know, you're at the time where this was pre-vaccinate, or the vaccinations were just being rolled out, but we hadn't been vaccinated, hadn't got any testing, really established testing facilities. So it was just make it up on the fly. Yeah. So you've got people getting COVID. How do you then say they're fit to go back into full fighting? So I'd sort of like cobbled together as best as I could, like a quick exercise test to be like, if you can do this, your oxygen levels are okay, you feel okay, you're probably okay to get back into it. But it was very much I remember my two IC going, like, Doc, there's nothing out there, just uh over to you. I was like, cool, right, uh, you know, quick put something down. What do you think? It was like, yep, looks good, Doc. So yeah, it was hard, really hard, just to sort of add to everything else. But good fun ultimately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't put anyone off.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

So it's sort of like you've triggered so many memories. I remember um I remember coming back from Cataric. So I was called back from Cataric slightly early because uh there was a short-term training team gig going on in Ghana. So an S triple T for those that don't know what that is. Um, and I sort of sat there in the office preparing some admin and whatever. And my mate looks at me and he goes, Uh, how are you with West African med plans? And I was like, I just assume obviously thought he was joking. So I was like, Yeah, funny. Um, obviously not very good. Uh, and then sort of left it. He was like, Hey mate, how'd you get on with that? Like at the end of the week, how are you gonna get on with that med plan? I was like, Wait, you be I surely cannot be responsible for like what? Um, and then luckily, uh, one of the med officers that I was in in connection with um helped me massively. Yeah, I was like, I don't know what I'm doing with this buddy document. And I also like it made me really think about oh, actually, we're going there and there isn't all this medical support. So really you've got to think through that. And up to that point, I'd been a platoon commander, and every time we deployed, there was the RAP and all that sort of stuff. So it was there for you, especially when I was on tour. Um, you know, uh, we were in a from primarily American camp, so it had all the med facilities and whatever, it's been there for years. Uh, but yeah, that was my sort of first experience of trying to do a med plan.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Um, and and even with that, I'd been thrown a couple of like a couple of the juniors uh were like, oh Doc, we're going up Mountain Kenya. Like, we need to do a med plan, and like all the high altitude stuff. I was like, yeah. Like, uh, can you help us out? It's like, yeah, come here, just you know, we'll we'll get this written together. I remember this was when I was back in um KRH. We got all through this and helped them out. They presented it back and they had it signed off, etc. And I ran to one of them because we were all in the mess together and said, like, oh, you know that Mount Kenya expend you're going on. It's like look, I don't want to don't put any of the lads out, like they get priority. But if there's a space, can I come? And they're like, Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Week later, come on, doc, you know, we'll get you on the mail. Mount Kenya as well. It's like, brilliant. Because so if you're you know, if you're giving these, you know, if you're helping out, all these opportunities arise. Yeah, which I think is brilliant. Like, my even in my um Sandhurst intake, uh Google, if anyone's on, Nick's weatherall was one of the was one of the doctors who went, was in the female team that went to one of the polls, as but and it's like I was speaking to her, she's like, We're in the same platoon, just having a chat away, and it's like, you know, some and bumped into a couple of years later, and it's like it's amazing what you've done. It was like, yeah, I got you know, I was in the right place with the right people, but because the army supports that, yeah, she got to do it. So absolutely amazing career. I was like, hats off to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Yeah, yeah, nice. And I guess it's one of those roles where um you're needed on a lot of things as well. Yeah. So if people like you as well, they're like, get him on board, get him on. We need the dock, because that mid plan's not doesn't quite need me, but uh, thank you very much. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, one of my uh one of my mates was a ski instructor. Oh, Chris, you spent most of the winter just like definitely needed. You're like needed your job, but um yeah, awesome. Oh well, I've got a few questions. Oh, go on, I've done my best. So I don't know if these are going to be quite quickfire, but we'll uh we'll see how we get on. Hopefully, we've done number one, which is a breakdown of the PQO course at Sandhurst. I think we've I think we've kind of covered that. Day-to-day life as a med officer. I think we've probably covered that largely. Um, tips or advice on AOSB preparation? Oh, tips and advice.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Uh I think certainly it probably goes back to what your channel says in terms of like making the bit. I was alright with knowing my stuff in terms of being a doctor. I was awful at the current affairs. Like current affairs, like some of the general knowledge stuff. I was really woeful. And I think I got called out on that and said, like, yeah, you're really naff on that. But you clearly know yourself because you're getting through your degree, and I was just like, uh, so yeah, so really go back to think about the military site, get help. Yeah. So I'd you know, my relative basically just said, like, you need to read this, this, and this and this, Radio 4 on all the time. Do not change it, you know, just to absorb as much as you can.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

Yeah, and I also think from from people that I've um spoke with closely that are going down that path or worked with or whatnot, try and, you know, hopefully this podcast helps, but try and understand what the process is as well of that PQO route and what that looks like and some of those challenges that you really sort of spoke really well on, um, of some of those frictions, because it's very, very similar to to sort of being a second lieutenant at certain points, and well, I say second left, actually being a young officer in general, of being really honest about what you don't know, having the humility to learn from the people that you're probably leading most of the time as well, absolutely, which can be quite uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

And and I think as well, I sort of I'll share it now, just in case anyone, just as a competition who gets worse on their AOSB. I'm a big lad, prop forward for anyone who can't see me quite on camera. So uh they had like, right, you're getting across this ravine, um, wearing a bib number 11. I still remember it now, I think it's ingrained into it. And they had this plank, like these big, chunky things, and they were like, right, counterweight it. So they had three people, and then that my group eyeballed me and was like, right, we'll just get everyone on just to counterweight it. So I jumped on this thing and snapped it.

unknown 1:02:56

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

I was like, oh god. And they had so we had obviously the there were two people, I think there was a captain who was observing our group, and then there was like a major sort of like clearly observing him, just seeing what's going on. And so basically, you turn around like, number 11, are you okay? Are you bruised us or you hurt? And it's like, nope, just my ego's hurt, but I'm fine, thank you. And then the colonel chipped up and just went, Yeah, you're a bit of a fat bastard, aren't you, number 11? So just like the ability just to, if you took offense, I think it's just having that just take on the chin.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

And like you are gonna have you're gonna get ribs.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:31

Yeah, there's something we do on on uh some of the courses that I'm on, is is like military feedback is is like no other. Uh yeah, it can be very direct, uh, extremely personal. It's not a character assassination as such, yeah, but what you don't get in in well, in my sort of sim civic experience is you don't really get people that go, you know, are you good at your job? Yes, no. Um, and what can you work on? But it doesn't really come in like who you are as a person, and actually, I think the military does that quite well of like here's some character development. Like, yep, your job's this, and you're either good at it, bad at it, whatever. But also, if you as a person, there's this feedback that we can give. And I actually got a lot of value out of that personally. Absolutely. And there's something we try and do now, which is like peer feedback, because you have to do a lot of that, and I think also as an officer, it's your job to try and really um I'd say master, but it's not really mastering, it's understand how to give that feedback constructively. If you're gonna tell someone they're not the great person, like you can't really just like completely destroy them. So, how are you gonna give that feedback? So we do like a peer feedback session, and at the start it's all very soft, and then actually as it goes forward, so I liken it to my Sanders experience after you know the first exercise, it's all very um, oh yeah, you're a really nice person, but maybe there's just this tiny thing, and then by the end of the like the intermediate term, everyone's like, right, you're really prick at you're a real prick at this point on the exercise, or whatever. So there's that there's that piece that that I I really like. Okay, tips and advice, yeah, definitely know your stuff and definitely about the the PQO route as well, which I mean. Absolutely, yeah. How does the military plug any knowledge gaps? Hopefully, we've touched on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Yeah, I think with I'll I'll touch on that more. So you've got your PQO course, obviously, that will that will plug a lot of it initially. They're really, really supportive in terms of like you have to do what's called battlefield advanced trauma life support every couple of years so that you can deal with someone who's been, you know, shot, chest injury, that's a little bit sort of like some really significant injuries to a decent level, enough to keep them alive, and then you sort of pass them on. So there you are expected to keep that going for on a I think it's about a two-yearly basis. They do a tropical medicine course, which again, because you've got all these consultants who are expertly trained on it, you get some world class teaching. We ended up having a day up at the Liverpool Tropical School of Medicine seeing all the snakes because, like, as you said, all these S triple Ts going out, like if you get a scorpion sting, yeah, like where are you at? Or you know, you get a local something that bites you, like, how are you gonna deal with it, dog? Um, so that was great fun in terms of and they are very supportive in terms of. keeping you up to date with certain courses. So I was I've now let it lapse, I was an advanced uh life sports uh instructor, which is a civilian qualification Resource Council UK is a completely civilian sort of organization, but they had a group within the military who are like, yeah, we need to keep this up. You, you know, you'll come down and be an instructor. So we ran the courses regularly. So there is a lot of training going through like and when you go on operations, so we did things like, you know, how do you set up an emergency blood panel? But you need to learn how to take all the blood, how to administer it and etc, etc. So it's a load of training out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

And it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Yeah. Quite overwhelming information. I'd remember being on page breaks. I'm like in three months' time I'm not going to remember anything. No, exactly that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:44

It's sort of like, yeah, just remember who you are. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

And the final one was how are PQOs received by the rest of the army? I think we've got that. But there's also an extra bit particularly by regular officers. I don't know if we touched on that bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

Probably I I think I've had mixed reception I think from that way. And the more experienced ones I think generally sort of got what Med and Doc was meant to do. I think though that my personal experience is like you've got to then carry yourself with that professionalism but with that balance of like you're amongst people who can do this a lot better than you in terms of the officer side who are you know they've had that longer training they would have had that longer experience. So bearing that in mind certainly certainly in your junior sort of career yes I've worked with you know uh senior majors colonels who are very experienced officers in their own right from a medical and an officer element but certainly when I came to it as like just recognising where you sit and not you know and being mindful and open to that help and learning from others around you.

Leaving The Army And Building Online Work

SPEAKER_00 1:07:47

So I think that was the sort of the the biggest advice just not being not being a cock about basically don't be a dick just like it don't be the absolute best advice. Really really I genuinely I I've learned a lot anyway on that bit. What are you up to now?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

Or exciting stuff um I would like to say I've forgotten everything about the army and it doesn't affect my day to day at all but that's completely false. So it was one of those that so I left the army uh four years ago thankfully where I live so just up in northeast one of the local practices which unbeknownst to me was actually very good um how the NHS works you in GP you'll get what called partnership so they actually have a ownership and a stake in a business and I knew from a officer leadership background I was like it's either that or nothing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:36

So I sort of walked into I sort of interviewed as I was transitioning out of the army and actually that helped me with leaving the army because they gave me a job offer. Oh great um so that I do for three days a week that's at Eagle Sliff Medical Practice. Using actually one of my good uh good friends who's still serving he went to Hull York medical school and they've got medical students in and around the area that I work and they said like right they need a doctor to sort of assure that medical students are being looked after um and again it's organizational. So it's sort of that softer skills of the military had taught me you know set up a tutor training event right this is easy like I can book a room I can put an MEL together I can send out emails in plenty of time absolutely fine and it was frustrating for me that actually all these soft skills um sort of push across and then my other sort of uh I work with our local federation again a lot of organizational stuff which is coming uh just coming into fruition and then my passion project which sort of why I really reached out was I run a YouTube channel alongside with Matthew uh that's Doc Support Limited where we help other doctors get through in multiple stages of their career. So through you know being a trainee GP um trying to get the best out of the practice and there's sort of the computer systems there and sort of like some of those leadership lessons and optimising your business sort of we do a lot of videos on there. Matthew's from a private practice background so we sort of teach others to you know if they want to do a little bit of that on the side um what's great working with Matthew is that he's got family here so his dad's a ex-colonel so we he just you know army brat ex-army we talk the same language so you know and it was that of going like oh actually yeah so you know and we offer we've got a couple of ebooks we offer mentorship so I set up the YouTube channel many years ago so I mentor other doctors who want to get onto YouTube um oh nice which is it's good fun just so I've got one I'm meeting meeting up with him tomorrow just to sort of chat about his early stages of getting onto it. Okay. I've helped out others who have really you know rather frustratingly she's done superbly well um in terms of getting like 2000 subscribers on my channel um and I sort of gave her a couple of nudges with my experience but um and then Matthew's mentored a couple of people getting into private practice as well and it's just nice having to have that work along and that's fed into my own career. But again going back to those military softer skills that you overlook don't think are important have come in so handy now.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:03

Yeah yeah we were chatting before weren't we about how um well definitely sort of my experience leaving the army it took me a while to appreciate you know best part of maybe six to twelve months to appreciate what skills I had that I could then apply to a civplace and I started in a tech startup and it was at times really frustrating I actually remember getting like six months into thinking I was going to leave because I felt like I'm underutilised and whatnot. And really it was just I hadn't quite figured out how I had all this experience and how I could apply it. And you don't lose it just because you leave the army absolutely it gives you those skills set up and I think you know about starting your own thing or putting yourself out there actually there's that just piece of resilience that you get from being in the military as well. And also you get thrown into situations where you don't know what's going on quite a lot. You know your role changes saying nothing yes your role changes or location changes and you get really comfortable with just oh yeah this happens every two years or whatever it is for that person. And I've done this a few times before and I get it at the start I'll be a bit shit and then I'll pick it up and you just do that over and over again that you're like yeah cool I'll start a business and no I haven't done it before and I don't really understand what I'm doing but I'm confident that within six months I'll have a better understanding of what I'm doing. How have you found going online the YouTube space?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

I love it a bit too much. That's the problem I've I've had I sort of I talk about this a lot that I find the one I love it because I I find that I can maximize who I'm helping in terms of you know if I'm sat in a surgery I'll see you know anywhere between 12 and 15 patients in a half day session um so there is only a finite number of people I can help in a week whereas actually if I go online I'll get videos that are very niche very direct who will then they will go back and say like oh Dave you've helped me out with this really helpful so I'm sort of multiplying my impact on that way. It's had such positive impacts in terms of my own career because I've not had to provide a CV. Really just point them to the channel or just or they know no the other way around so I've had people say like so one of the jobs I worked with um I I did a job a job interview I went for was presenting and I didn't get the job um but it was very much you need to teach and so you did a short video did a it submitted you CV um and they turned around and then another company which was an educational company aimed at pharmacists said like oh Dave we've seen that video like sorry you didn't get the job do you want to come work with us? Nice. And I've had multiple multiple opportunities sort of fall out. So I've got to the point now I was like I can't stop yeah and I and I think I sort of encourage anyone who's teetering on the edge of it like just do it. Yeah honestly just do it and I mean and how have you found it said I'm gonna throw it back at you.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:49

Yeah uh yeah uh well I started it because I lost a bet. Uh so love it. So yeah humble beginnings I guess. Um and actually I think my own experience with it was um I actually had an initial piece of like real success online and I think if maybe I hadn't have got that you get a little bit downbeat about oh it's a lot of effort especially at the start where you're like I don't know and like more recently I've managed to find someone who can edit this stuff for me. So sometimes I get picked up in the comments for a misspelling or you know it's an American soldier instead of a British soldier I'm not doing the editing anymore. So I I'm just trying to free up a bit of time because I'm also not very good at it. So at the start it's a lot of effort for like little return. I don't mean any financial I just mean in terms of like it was a passion. I really enjoyed just putting it together I think I also got away with it and this is where I've seen a lot of military people jump on YouTube that might not have loads I'm not saying that I had shit loads of experience but I was a qualified infantry platoon commander I'd done been a platoon commander I'd then done a full course at Catarick training recruits. I know what good looks like when it comes to infantry soldiering especially the basics so I was like well if I'm gonna video recruits I kind of know what I should and shouldn't be putting out there. They're not super soldiers I'm not a super soldier so some of it might not be amazing but it's also training and I'm really passionate about training. So that initial part I really enjoyed I had a real frustration with the army at the time because they were not on site a few individuals were which is great and I'll talk about that another time but uh at the follow-up video yeah yeah at the start I was um I was threaders and just gonna leave to be honest with you and then fast forward a year and um things changed and I got noticed by by the top uh which was very nice but bittersweet because I'd fought an uphill battle at that point yeah but then finally it was like Dan's doing a good job keep it up and then I think now uh I mean I wouldn't be able to have a business without it yes I really like long form uh so I really like YouTube because I feel like people can get to know you a bit better. I'm not right on everything I say I make a lot of mistakes but hopefully I'm transparent enough about it. I also double down on stuff that I do think I'm right on so people will challenge it and that's fine but I'm coming at it from like my experience not necessarily the army or whatever um and I think it's a skill I think it's a skill that you work on and you get better at talking to what a weird experience talking to a camera is by the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:10

Absolutely absolutely I can't I'm I'm jealous of my usual setup is me in my office chatting to my iPhone whether that's my clinic office where I've got you know for anyone who flicks over to the channel you'll see I've got a UN my UN berry in the background deliberately there with sort of a a crochet lizard that the nurse would award every week for lizard of the week which I then won permanently for it. So it's sort of like thanks for that yeah and anyone who reads they they wrote me a poem um and so it's in my I need to take it down or cover it up because it's in military language and we'll go back to the swearing comment for there. So when I get a couple of people like after quickly judge them like yeah don't read it too closely and I'm like what are they saying about you anyway but I I agree with you in terms of that skill that's there like I did all of my own editing all of my own videography um and was okay at it and then when I teamed up with Matthew a year ago he brought along a virtual assistant who he'd worked with for years beforehand um who said like yeah I can do all your editing and she does it far better she's got a team behind her and she does it far better than I can. That's great. And and actually that allows the business to be more efficient and as I'm sort of learning more about how business works it's like oh actually that goes back into my GP partnership stuff because I learned those lessons there push it in here like so I've set up a YouTube channel for the practice. Yeah just to try and just for different reasons but just to try and make it a bit more efficient.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

Yeah it's definitely helped like communicate points across and how people retain information. I I watch a lot of um mainly like business channels at the moment because obviously I'm trying to do that uh and grow and in not grow like ridiculously by the way I'm not trying to scale this to something that I don't think I get to I want it like really sort of processed and and organic um but obviously I've never done it before so I'm just learning a lot from people that put it out there and I see how like educational and valuable the content can be and hopefully I'm I feel like I'm delivering that. I'm not a fan of short form uh but it's a it it's a must so you've got to sort of do that anyway. We were discussed so I found you through short form. Yeah so it works it was one of those like because I went like hang on a second you said about hurry and I was like when I know that face yeah and then I saw you chatting I was like what's this about and then you sort of follow it through so yeah it was one of those and it's it's definitely worked it's opened up a lot of doors um which has been fantastic my gripe is um and you know not coming at the haters here and I've got a few and that's fine and you have to be resilient because if you've got to put yourself out there the military I mean social media is judgmental the military is a pretty judgmental place. Yes and that's fine and I think um some people obviously like I call myself the army bloke as well don't get me wrong I know I get it right I you know that would probably annoy me but it lands it it remembers itself and you also know what you're getting from the channel which is why I did the name change. I don't talk about anything else right so that's fine. And I think you're gonna piss some people off and and that's that's okay. People can be pissed off that's cool. I didn't get on with everyone in my entire career that's fine. But hopefully like you said once you figure out who you're trying to help and that and genuinely help it makes it easier to come up with content ideas and and and commit because you might get whatever negativity from one side but then actually you're like but I know the people that I'm trying to help and if you find it shit that's fine. You're not the person I'm trying to help so that's cool go and watch something else. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:25

Yeah exactly that and I I sort of I took And I'll take the banter yeah it's like I take it and it's sort of like and it's the you know don't be a wallflower I sort of take the negative comments because or you know there is a certainly amongst doctors there's that friction between private practice and the NHS and I'm very much like the whole channel for me is like we don't talk enough we don't educate each other and so a lot of the stuff yes I do have paid sort of content I have a paid course you know if you want to chat to me for an hour that's paid um but actually a lot of the stuff I put out there and why I work with Matthew is like a lot of the stuff is like we put it out there so we're but we're just trying to help others who are curious but like yourself like they want to get to Sandhurst they don't know how yeah they just need to help yeah yeah and and then that's it that's really what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

Yeah it's a free resource I I say it all the time to um to sort of friends and whatnot about what we're doing here and it's about hopefully if anyone's joining the military or sort of this channel is definitely definitely aimed at people that are joining people that have newly joined and are at Sandhurst or at basic training about to turn up to their units or just anyone in sort of that first leadership role in trying to navigate it and whatnot. And whether we work together or not I just hope we get some value out of it. Whether it's a short there's an Instagram post whether it's a a long form video you're not going to watch this forever and that's fucking fine. Like that that's cool. I'm gonna keep speaking to those types of people um so yeah it's it's it's been good but I think sometimes that negative like you're human right and absolutely you you pour your heart and soul into something and you think is valuable and there's some some prick just tended to shreds you spelt that wrong it's like yeah but it's a 15 minute video mate and actually like if that's the only negativity then cool. David I sort of hijacked there with the No no no no no sorry I've I but it's great to meet someone else that's great to meet there's someone else and and you'll be tagged in these videos so I guess um if anyone is considering the PQO especially as a med officer you obviously help with not necessarily into the army but I'm sure you could give advice on that.

Final Advice And How To Engage

SPEAKER_02 1:21:20

Absolutely but mainly sort of well that especially the early career of a of a doctor right yeah exactly certainly if you're I do a lot about if you're in the early stages of your GP training one of the big exams uh called the applied knowledge test or AKT you've got a bucket load of resources um for them to sort of help get through it as quickly and easy as possible basically so at Doc Support Limited or LTD so yeah we love it go and check it out any final bits of advice and this could be on on anything really from your career or the army or whatever you feel like you'd like to sort of give over to anyone listening. Gotcha final bit of advice I think hammer home the don't be a dick and that can sort of like that carries so much and humility will carry you far and being conscious of the experience of who's around you and whether that regardless of rank you need to be conscious and mindful of that because you're not going to be the most experienced in the room but you might be the highest ranking one great it's perfect I remember my colours on on day one just being like don't be a dick Sandhurst it's the still the best piece of advice I've ever had um and good just for life.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:27

So um mate thanks for for making the journey and coming on uh hopefully that was really valuable if you are definitely going down the PQO route um or just learning a bit more about leadership in different parts of the army that is it for this week's episode so if this content has been useful please do click like click subscribe you can click the bell so you're notified every time I upload a video uh if you've got questions bang them in the comments hopefully you'll help me if there's some of them are too specific. Do my best uh and we can reply to some of those and um I will see you next week with a brand new video in a bit